Russ Cook | Africa Runner on Mindset, God & Getting Kidnapped in Congo

Russ, are you the hardest man in the world? I mean, you call yourself.

Hardest man in the world?

I don't.

I don't think so. To be fair. I've probably got to say, yeah, for the. For the brand rep now, and I. Hardest geezer? Yeah. Yeah. I'm the hardest geezer ever in the whole world. Ever in the whole world ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Five UFC fighters, you take them out.

Bang, bang, bang, bang. Left hook, right hook, uppercut, boom, gone out of it, no problem.

But there are different types of hard, aren't there? And running the length of Africa, I mean, that. That's the sort of hard even the toughest guys in the world surely couldn't deal with.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's. It's niche. It's definitely niche, but I think it's one of them where anything's possible, really, when you start really putting your mind to it. And I'm not a massively gifted or talented runner, or. There's no real physical. I'm not a physical specimen of any kind of. But I had a pretty insane desire, and I was willing to push through pretty much anything I could to get it done. So there you go. Powerful things happen when those two things combine. Eh?

That's very true. And we're gonna pick all that apart. I just wanna chuck something straight that Andrew Tate said to me. Cause this fascinated me. Cause he's like, anyone can go and lift really heavy weights for a few reps. The hardest thing to do is a thousand reps. Do you agree, as someone who's run the length of Africa, do you think it's harder to sort of intensely. Long duration and short, sharp bursts of intense strength?

Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. It starts mentally fatiguing on you after that many reps, you know, like, 19 million steps. Is that what it was in Africa? Like over 19 million? Yeah. It's a lot of reps. Shit, yeah.

19 million again and again.

And just, like, you think you're done, then you wake up next day and you go in again, and then you go all day long, and then you go again, and you go again and you go again.

How many hours a day were you running?

Depends on the day. I mean, towards the end, it was. It was, you know, close to 10 hours of.

10 hours a day?

Yeah.

So marathons every day?

Oh, at least, yeah.

Yeah, at least a marathon every day, yeah.

Yeah. Well, over the 352 days of the run I averaged, I think it was about 50. Just over 50 kilometers a day.

Wow.

Yeah.

And so what's like, did you ever think, I'm quitting, I'm out, I'm stopping at Zambia, Bye.

Honestly, there was a few moments where things got really tough. Yeah. And I was like, oh, be asked. And. And the idea kind of, it doesn't even really come into your head, but it might just like loom around out here for a bit. You might have a glance at the idea of quitting. Right. And then I realized I couldn't. So just kind of quick.

Why couldn't you? Because you could.

Well, I could have done, but, you know, I'd pinned myself in in so many ways that I really felt like I didn't have a. You know, I was. I was in.

That sounds like that's the hack.

Yeah.

Pin yourself in so many ways.

Yeah, yeah.

That quitting, there's no choice.

Yeah.

So how did you pin yourself in?

Oh, loads of ways. Let's try and break that down. Well, I think one of the most simplest ones that is good to use is just telling people what you're doing. Because once you tell people what you're doing, right, you pin it like a twang. You look like a knob if you don't do it.

So you just literally were telling everyone.

So that's the easiest one straight off the bat is like, right, go and plaster it on your socials and tell everyone, yeah, I'm doing it, it's happening, game on.

Right.

So there's that. I mean, another one that I pinned myself in was like, financially, I was totally pinned in. I risked everything I had on it. I'd borrowed money as much as I could. I had borrowed other people. I was literally, all my resources were in it to fund, to fund it, to get it going. We still started with like barely any money, right? Started with 10 grand for about 300 grand. Mission had no sponsors at the start, nothing really. So I was totally financially pinned in. I also recruited people and said to them, I can't pay you right now, I'll back pay you once we start making money. But, like sold them on a vision that I was going to do it. So you start thinking about all of these, you know, I've got a girlfriend at home, right. I'm going to do this. You know, this is going to happen and it's going to happen. It's going to. We're going to be sorted afterwards, you know, just pinned in.

I really like this.

So many. It's like there's no plan B. Because if you have a plan B.

There just wasn't a choice.

Yeah, no, that's it. I think that it's probably, like, one of the best bits of advice I could give to anyone that's trying to do something really hard is don't give yourself a plan B. Because when those times do get hard and you do want to quit, if there's a plan B, you'll fucking take it, mate. So, like, don't have one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You'd have just come back and run up and down West Sussex.

Yeah, I'd have gone. It would have got to day 24 or whatever when I'm pissing blood, and I'd have gone, would you actually piss blood? Yeah, piss blood. Six, five or six days in a row. It was on early. That was probably about a month in, I think.

Six days in a row?

Yeah.

Did that not worry you, that something was really wrong?

After about five days, I did start getting a little bit worried. I thought on day one, I was like, you know, could just be an anomaly that will, you know, roll with it. And then day two, and I'm like, day three, day five, I'm like, oh.

Yeah, what was it?

That we don't really know. I went. I did end up going to the doctors. They did blood tests and they found protein in my piss. And that was supposedly really bad because it kind of said sign that maybe the kidney is. Or the liver. One of the stuff I can't remember. It's like having. It's breaking down. But then, you know, they thought it might be rhabdo. Then they figured out, we don't think it is rhabdo. I don't know. I think it was basically the after effects of getting really bad food poisoning. Because just eating anything I could get my hands on out there. So I'd get really bad food poisoning. I'd be extremely dehydrated. I'd be vomiting for, like, three days straight, and then just continuing running marathons through it all. So just deplete my body to the point where I had nothing to run off. So it would just start eating its own muscles as fuel, and then it would obviously just cause some pretty mad health complications. Now, that happened a couple times.

So why did you do this?

It's a really good question when you put it, like, why would I do that?

Or rather, why the fuck did you do this?

Well, I think. I think a couple of the big reasons is really I wanted to look back at the end of my life once it's all said and done and say, like, russ, we absolutely had a tear up at it. I maximised everything, all of my potential with my life. And I absolutely went for it. I think that was a big thing. I look at, I visualize that quite intensely, especially when I was like, we're all going to die. This is a finite time we have on planet Earth. And I want to make sure that I use it to the best of my ability. And then, yeah, I mean, that would probably be one of my strongest motivating forces. And, you know, I wanted to experience adventure. I wanted to. I grew up in Worthing, quite a small town on the south coast. And most of the people, I sort of lived this quite, you know, cookie cutter, like, grow up, go college, maybe go uni, get a, you know, nice, safe job in nice, safe industry and maybe eventually you get a, you know, two up, two town house and all of these things. And I was like, oh, it's just not really doing it for me. That just don't. Surely there's something more out there for me. And that kind of. That was a lot of my younger years, was this intense search for something that meant a bit more or fulfilled a bit more than what I was seeing and ended up stumbling across running. And then, you know, met this guy in Kenya. I'd been cycling around the world for six years and he was probably one of the first people I looked at and gone like, that's cool. You know, he doesn't care what the rule book says, he's doing his own thing.

Yeah.

And that just kind of heavily inspired me. And then started doing. I did an Asia to London run in 2019 and then after that it was, you know, get the map out, have a look at the world. Africa, never been done. That would be pretty cool. And then it was a journey to figure out how it's going to happen from there.

Wow. Like, I guess there must have been times when you probably nearly killed yourself. Like, people can die doing that, surely.

Yeah.

Running in Africa.

Yeah. I mean, we heard plenty of stories of, you know, people getting stabbed over five rand in South Africa or, you know, getting all types of things happening in the Congo for the watching their wrist and all this type of stuff. So, you know, it happens, it is a thing. The dangers are real out there and they are anyway, you know, go London. Same thing can happen.

To be fair, and with running, people die. Marathons every year, just running and you're running Africa even.

This is quite a perspective one we had a bunch of people came and joined us for the last marathon. I put it out on my socials. I was like, anyone that wants to come run in Tunisia for the last marathon, come and do it. And then we had a bunch of people turn up and a load of them, they'd been watching the journey and they were like, son of us, I'm doing this last marathon. They'd just come off the back of UK winter, landed themselves in Tunisia running their first marathons. We had two people hospitalised that day. That would have looked bad if someone would have died for you. No, we had two people hospitalised that day. And every year, and it's very sad, but every year people will die running marathons or half marathons, even in the uk. Every year. Yeah. So it's a serious thing.

Yeah. How many miles was.

Was over 10,000. Just over 10,000.

And you did that in under a year. How many days?

352.

How did you feel when you finished it?

Yeah, some buzz that, man. Some buzz, I think. Yeah. It had been such a long time on the road that I'd almost like forgotten what life was like outside of it. It was just that I was in that hamster wheel every day. Go, go, go, go, go. To finish was just like this alternative world kind of experience where I was like, oh, wow, that's actually. That is actually over now. But, yeah, I mean, mixed emotions very much. Like, I really love working towards this goal every single day, trying to move towards this big thing I'm trying to achieve, but also, you know, and I really miss that, but also, like really grateful for. Came back to the UK with just a whole fresh new perspective and everything. I'd walk around, oh, isn't that great? Look at Greg's. Our Greg is so good. Double cheeseburger from Matthew. You know, so there was a lot of that going on as well.

Right. So would you say it? Because actually there's a question I wanted to ask and this is the perfect time to ask, even though I was going to ask it later. Most people in the UK are very unhappy right now.

Yeah.

The political landscape is screwed.

Yeah.

You know, this country is in a bad way. But I wanted to ask you, is this country that bad considering you went to Africa for a year and came back?

Well, it depends what you define as bad, man. Like, what astounded me about Africa is almost everywhere I went, people would beg me to bring them to England. Everywhere I went, they'd be like, bring me to England, bring me to England, bring me to England. And I think, you know, stress, these things are relative. But also it was an eye opening thing for me, going for a lot of these countries and you see real suffering that people don't really have that much of a choice about. You know, we do have a lot of opportunity here and as difficult as it is, I'm fully aware of it, we do have opportunity. Kids go to school, they get an education, whether it's a good education or not. People might, you can discuss that, but at least they're getting one. And you know, out there, I remember we met a 8 year old kid in Guinea. He was a snake hunter. He literally went out into the jungle hunting snakes every day. Like poisonous, venomous snakes that could kill him. To like sell this snake for like, probably less than a quid to other locals to like provide a little bit for his family. And it's like, it's almost insulting to hear people in the UK be like, labor insert into X problem here.

Yeah.

When you kind of there's, you know, the level of suffering elsewhere in the world and you don't have to go that far to see it is just, you know, these people, honestly. I know, I know. I've had the conversations with these people, the people in Africa and you know, throughout various different countries and they would literally laugh at some of these problems that people have.

Yeah.

So, yeah, like mixed. Because I also understand that it's, you know, it's relative to where you are and it's not as simple as saying we have no problems and they have all the problems. Because there's also the other way around where it's like, hold on a minute, we do actually, you know, I would run through African villages and be like, oh, they're lit. Look at the community and the togetherness and the going on in these villages. You can see that they're really relying on each other and they really live as a village, as a community. And then, you know, you can walk around London and it's filled with 12 million people and no one picks their head up off the street pavement because everyone's a guy in somewhere and everyone's got something to do and everyone's on a really important thing. And you know, so there's, it's just, I think one of my takeaways was that it's very much gray. There's no black and white conclusions about these things. It's very complicated and I'm probably not the best place person to dissect them all because I'm just fucking stupid.

That's a bit unfair on yourself.

I'm not stupid.

But you know, you're just being humble that there's a big world and there's.

A lot of things, universe, and I don't know much about it.

We know a lot less than we actually think we know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did it change you? Did Africa change you? Did running the length of Africa change you?

Definitely, yeah, it's definitely changed me. And if I'm being honest, I don't even know all the ways in which it's changed me. I'm still figuring a lot of it out. I think it's like anything in life, you go, well, for me, anyway, you go through this intense period of kind of. I threw myself into this challenge where I didn't really know how to figure it out, but I muddled through as best I can, got to the end of it, and now I'm kind of still in the. Digesting all of the learnings and the lessons and figuring out, okay, well, that didn't quite go to plan. Why was that kind of working back from all of those things? So, you know, Africa's definitely changed me a lot, and probably my perspective is one of the biggest ones out of that.

You're the only person that's ever run the length of Africa.

Yeah. Yeah. The full length. Yeah.

Wow. How does that make you feel?

Again, it's, you know, it's good, but it's also. That's not my value as a human as much I'm not my achievements. And that was a something that I'm, you know, I'm proud that I did, but I don't believe that is me. You know, it's just. It's the thing I did. It's cool.

Right? That's quite a spiritual thing to detach your achievements from your identity.

Yeah. And I've definitely not mastered that. I think there's definitely times where I will slip into that again. But I think when I really think about it, that's what I'd try and be like, you know?

But there's nothing wrong with having some pride and identity around a Doing something no other human has done. All the money raised, all the inspiration, all the followers, all the people that have been inspired by you. Nothing wrong to own that, is there?

No. I think probably more touching on the spiritual element of it is, like, I did all of those things, but I wouldn't. I'd be cautious to say that it was just me doing it. Like, for me, that was God walking me through a lot of those situations. Yeah. So, you know, I was blessed with the power to do a lot of that stuff, but it's not necessarily my all my own doing. So I wouldn't be sat there going, oh, I did all these amazing things. It's like, yeah, okay. But, you know, recognize what, for me, anyway, it'd be like, recognize what's going on there. It's not just, you sure. Marching out there and doing your thing, and there is no outside.

Right.

Yeah.

But I don't really talk about God much because I have a similar viewpoint to you that I'm stupid when it comes to God because I know nothing compared to what's out there. That being said, though, there's millions of people who could have attempted to do what you do, and you might believe that they had God on their side and they did nothing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I definitely had the conviction to go out there and at least attempt it. So, you know, there's me and God. We're working together on that. It was a collab. Yeah.

It's a joint venture.

Yeah, it's a joint venture.

I like that because I was talking to Andrew and Tristan about this Andrew Tate, because they were grilling me about God and faith.

Yeah.

And, you know, I was like, well, sometimes the problem with faith is it you outsource your own responsibility.

Yeah, yeah.

I've just got faith. You know, whatever's destined for me is destined for me because I've got faith. Fundamental exercise.

No, I hear that. I spent most of my life an atheist. Fair. So I'm 27. I was. Probably spent the most, 24 or 25 years. It wasn't until I met my partner who. Until I kind of got into that way of thinking, but I would have been exactly thinking the same thing.

I'm definitely not saying I don't believe. I'm saying I don't know. But that's like. It's very easy to advocate personal responsibility.

I hear that. Yeah.

And so, yeah, that would, for me, feel like, well, I've got to own my own life. But then what Andrew and Tristan said to me was, well, you know, when there's the hardest things in the world going on, like when you're imprisoned in wrongly.

Yeah.

You just don't question because you've got the faith, and it just carries you through those things.

Yeah.

And that's something I've never had with me because I don't yet believe in the same way you do.

Yeah, yeah. What.

What. What made you believe?

Oh, yeah, that's a good question.

Emily's just good at pitching it.

Nudge. She didn't pitch it. She really didn't pitch it at all to me. Me, to be Fair. Like when we met and she know, she said like, okay, she's a Christian stuff. And I was like, you know, I met her, I was like, wow, she's beautiful. I really want to get to know her. So I just started asking about these kind of things, and I just kind of said, you know, I'm an atheist, you know, and she said she was a Christian. I was like, yeah, but, like, what about, you know, God hates gay people and whatever else I said at the time, I can't even remember and obviously.

Knew a lot about it back then.

Yeah. And because. Because she, you know, she said about. I wanted to learn about it. I wanted to learn about from her perspective. So I went and did my research, and I looked at. I looked at. I listened to people talking about it. I've listened to parts of the. The Bible and the Gospels. And I think for me, and. And this might be a controversial thing to say for other Christians, but for me, I'm not. I'm still sitting largely in a similar space to you where I recognize I don't know a lot, but as someone that's been on this search for truth and this search for meaning for a lot of my life, I found more truth in Christian teachings in the Bible than I have in any other space. And for me, that was a huge part in being like, okay, this is, you know, if I do the things that. The teachings that I'm being told here, does my life improve? Yes. You know, does my relationship improve? Yes. And it's all became true in my life. I can see how that they work. And, you know, I'm not a Christian scholar. I definitely do not need to be sitting on podcast talking too intensely about this because I got found out quickly. But for me, it, you know, it speaks. It speaks the most truth than anything I found. And I've, you know, I've looked around in a decent amount of spaces at this point. Yeah.

I mean, to be fair, the Ten Commandments are a great set of values to live by.

Yeah.

And if we all lived by those, we'd probably have less war.

Yeah. Yeah.

Less division, less polarity.

Yeah. Well, I think for me as well, it's easy to get like. And I get like, religion can get really divisive and things, but for me, if you, like, if you look at the way Jesus lived his life, and it was mostly. Mostly centered around love. And if. If I can do that, then I. And if people can do that as much as we can, and we won't be able to because we're Flawed human beings. And that's just the nature of how things work. But that is, for me, I look at that and go, that's the most truth that I've ever seen. Show me something that's more true than that.

Yeah. Wow. So as the guy who's run over 10,000 miles, 350 days in a row, marathons every day. Pissed blood.

Yeah. Yeah.

Has the world gone soft?

Maybe a little bit. Maybe a little bit. It depends what you mean by soft or woke. What do you. What do you mean by that?

I mean, is there quite a lot of entitlement in the world? Are we focusing on the kind of. The wrong problems? Is there laziness? You know, the welfare state's getting bigger. There seems to be in, certainly in some of the younger generations, a sense of I deserve without really working hard.

Yeah, I mean, I. I think those are things that I can recognize as. It's definitely. It's definitely a thing. I guess more to how do we combat that is the. Is the kind of.

That would be my next question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this is a complicated. It's a complicated thing to answer. How do we combat that? Because.

Is it complicated, though? What about do more hard things?

I think do more hard things, yes. But also, you know, on the individual level, people's lives are quite complicated. And the solution isn't normally just like one generic, you know, do hard things. That might be the answer for a lot of people, but it might not be the answer for some people. I see a lot of people that are in a lot of pain. They're having a really hard time. They've maybe, like, been rejected by everyone in their lives. A good example of this would be. So I've been doing school talks. I'm down the country the last month, and I went to this school where when kids get kicked out of normal school, they go to this, like, whatever it is, and then they get kicked out of that one and end up in this place. Right. So it's like the, you know, for lack of a better term, the naughtiest of the naughty kids. And what I saw there was quite incredible because they're no longer really focusing on teaching the kids maths and English and blah, blah, blah. The kids can come in and sleep all day at school if they want. They can go play football, they can go play outdoors, they can walk into my house. They walk straight out if they want. Don't care. But the primary focus of that school is to love the kids because they aren't getting love in their family. Lives at home or whatever. And I think that sometimes that's a point where. And I get it, but sometimes we can miss that point and be like, ah, work hard, work hard. Or whatever it is, whatever we're prescribing. But a lot of the times when people are in that really painful spot, especially like you think young kids like that, that message is never going in to their head until they're loved.

Right.

So I think as much as I fully back the whole, like the entitlement infuriates me, I think it's not like it's a nonsense attitude to have about things, but it's like, okay, we can recognize that's a problem, but how do we. What are we going to prescribe to that? Are we going to tell people, stop being fucking lazy and start fucking moving? Or are we going to go, maybe some people do need to hear that, but maybe some people do need to be loved and to be shown that love. And then we build off that. So, I mean, what do you think on that?

I think it's really powerful.

Yeah.

I think you saying that it doesn't make me feel guilty for asking the question because I do think sometimes, you know, for example, if you ask Andrew Tate, what should you do about being depressed? It's a go to the gym.

Yeah.

And actually I get it, it's a.

Great clip for Instagram. But it is also.

It does also work.

It does, yeah. 100% does for certain group. Yeah.

Certain type of person may maybe more male. His targets male. And also at certain times, there's no doubt, seven times out of ten, I just need to have a word with myself, jump in the ice bar. And I don't want to do it. And afterwards I feel great.

Yeah.

So I can put that advice over there and go. That works.

Yeah.

But what you've said is more powerful because I feel like love is the fuel for all humans.

Yeah.

And some people, if they're devoid of that fuel, the only way they're going to get love is by being naughty or, you know, resort to crime or whatever. Because they're chasing, trying to be recognized.

Yeah.

And it feels like a human right would be to be loved. And a lot of people don't even have that right because their parents don't even love them.

Yeah, exactly. So, like, as a society, what do you do for the. Those people? It's not like if, you know, you do get those kids, they end up in, you know, Mum and dad have gone through whatever their situation. Yeah. And they go through prison. It becomes a, you know, perpetuating cycle of struggle. So you can't just have a system where Andrew takes the world telling everyone to get off their fucking ass as much as, like, you know, I've listened to some of his stuff before and been like, it's quite compelling, you know, like. And he speaks in a really powerful way. And I go, you know, but the.

Thing is, he's like that because I think. And I'm. I'm making conjecture here, but he's like that, I think because he was seeking love from his dad that I'm not sure that he got. And so maybe that's made him a bit hard and maybe he could have a little bit more compassion.

Maybe could. Or maybe like, I think maybe he's one of these blokes that is wired that way and that's. And I get that because I think his type of messaging would work well for, like, I would, I would listen to that and go, yeah, come on, let's go. You know. Yeah. But, you know, I don't, I don't think it's going to hit everyone. And I'm just clear. He's very divisive, isn't he? You know, a lot of people really. I don't like a lot of the stuff that he says. And it's probably why, you know, because it's not. I don't think it's one man has the answers type of job.

No. You know, and also the back to the love thing, because as I'm more think it, number one, to give love, you've got to be able to love yourself.

Yeah.

And that's often the problem. If you can't feel it in you, how are you going to give it to others?

Yeah.

And the second thing is sometimes giving love means you've got to let someone screw you over because they're in a place where they're not ready to receive it. And like this school, I imagine the teachers are treated like shit.

Yeah.

But they're loving unconditionally. And my wife, we were talking about, you know, my kids earlier. My wife is all about unconditional love.

Yeah.

She says conditional love is really damaging other than no love. And it's unconditional love. But unconditional love is hard.

Yeah.

Because it's saying I love you regardless. Regardless of what you do. Back to me.

Yeah. Well, this is. I mean, we circle back. I'll circle back to Jesus quickly here. But like, you think him on the cross getting persecuted by his own people and he's like about to die. He's just been, like, pieced up pretty badly, right. And he's going, he's praying, going, you know, forgive them for they know what they. Something about they don't know what they're doing.

Right.

And you think, well, that is, if you look at the wider lesson from that, that is, if we can all live a bit more like that, then we can all, you know, we can all love each other a bit better. Is that not maybe what we want to achieve here? I don't know. I don't know. It's just a question.

Yeah. Why don't we then? Why is there so much hate and divisiveness and polarity and, you know, political extremism? Why is there so much of that in the world?

We're really testing, testing the depths of my knowledge. If we're just. So some bloke did a bit of running.

Yeah. Well, this is a pleasant surprise for me.

Yeah.

Because I'm only on question three.

Yeah.

I thought it'd be talking about resilience and grit and endurance.

Yeah.

It's an important question, isn't it?

It is. Well, I mean, humans, we're flawed, man. So I don't think. Are we ever going to get it right? Maybe not, you know, but I think a lot of these, you know, ancient wisdoms can really help us learn from the past and learn from what we've gone through before. And I'd say getting rid of them would be. Would be a bad idea, I. E.

What they're doing with all the wisdom from all the books, getting rid of them and.

Well, just like. Yeah, it's. It's like there's. There's stuff to be learned from. From what we've gone through before, I think. And it's easy to disregard for whatever reason you want, really, but keeping hold of them, I'd say could. Could do a pretty good job of keeping us on the right track moving forward.

Can you be honest? In a world full of lies, can you be kind? In a world full of hate.

Can you? Yeah, I mean, it's bloody hard, isn't it? We can try our best and I think that's. We can try and set ourselves up in. In the best way possible. Will we ever get there? You know, it doesn't appear to me like we can right now, but maybe we can. What do you think?

I think it takes a very. I was going to say strong person. I think everyone can be strong. I think it takes a very focused, committed, clear, miss based person where I think we lack that the most at the moment is politics. It feels like it's just so hard to be a politician because you can come in, like, wanting to change housing like we were talking about earlier, because housing has got so expensive.

Yeah.

But there's been like 12 housing ministers in the last 10 years and they probably come in, you know, with all these ideals.

Yeah.

And then the system just corrupts or taints them and in the end they have to hustle just to make a bit of money and make a career. And they go from wanting to, you know, change things to just focus. Yeah, exactly. So that's. If someone came into politics and went, I'm not taking any bribes. You can't buy me any glasses or any clothes. I'm not taking. Here's my mission for the next 10 years in this country. These are our policies, these are our values and I will not be broken. That's what it feels like it takes. We don't have many of those people left.

So do you think any of. Can you recall any politicians that you.

Think would like that or would not right now? No. I mean, and why not? That's a good question. I don't know. Maybe you're a product of your environment to a certain degree, aren't you? You know, if we. If we all got invaded and this country was in war, all that solidarity, that connection, that companionship, that fighting for a common goal would immediately come back. It would have to.

Yeah.

And we've lost it. Maybe because we're arguing over such petty little things. Because life's been easy.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, you ran the whole length of Africa pissing blood.

Yeah.

And you probably look at us in Britain going, you've got it easy in your 20 degrees.

Yeah. Well, I mean, what do you think? A lot. I think a lot of. A lot of the Africans that I spoke to during the. May probably say, say similar thing to that. Yeah.

But at the same time, we can't help. We're not in World War Three. We can't help that. Society is quite good.

Yeah.

So a lot of the entitlement and the wokeness comes from life being easy. But we all strive for life to be easy. You probably want life to be quite easy for your children.

Well, do you, though? Do you want the paradox actually? Do you do hard shit? Yeah. Do you actually want your life to be easy for your kids?

I think the chimp human brain goes, I want it to be easy. But this is the paradox from what I said earlier. Do hard things.

Yeah.

Because then when it is easy, you become Entitled. You've got no resilience.

Yeah. So you don't really want it to be easy, do you?

Are you gonna make your 4 year old child's life really hard to grit them up? It's hard, isn't it? Because you want to love them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely wouldn't want to make it too easy. I get that. That would be the instinct, like son or daughter? Son. Well, he's gonna step on my step. He's my stepson.

Right. I wonder if it would change if you had a daughter.

Yeah, yeah, maybe a little bit.

Yeah.

Little princess maybe. Exactly. Yeah.

You'd be straight down to the school, having a go at the teachers instead of letting her solve her own problems. The first boyfriend's getting a grin.

Elbows. Yeah, big elbows. No. Maybe.

I don't know.

Maybe it would a little bit, but yeah. An easy life. It's an easy life. A good life. That's the thing. I don't know. I don't think it is.

I don't think it is.

No. So you don't. Well, you wouldn't want your kids to have an easy life.

No. But I think a lot of people are being sold that you want them.

To be like adequately challenged.

That's it, you know. Adequately challenged, yeah. If you challenge too much, you break.

Well, it's like, yeah, that. I mean that is it. It's like I'm gonna go super metaphorical with it for a sec, but like I remember listening to a podcast with, I think it was Lex Friedman and Jordan Peterson and they were like talking about whether if you stare into the abyss, does the abyss stare back into you or do you, or do you find the light in the abyss? And it's like if you go through a really hard thing, you either like overcome it and conquer it and you're better and you grow out of it, or does it overwhelm you and kind of crush you? It's like you want them, you want to go through the challenge just enough so that you can overcome it and you grow from it, you move on. But if you bite off a bit more than you chew, then maybe that'll come back and kind of mess you up and give you some mad trauma and that's what you don't want. But yeah, had, you know, you can't, there's no balancing out for that. You sometimes you gotta around find out.

Yeah, but surely we want everyone to believe that they can own their challenges and trauma and, you know, turn it into something that's powerful and empowering everyone I reckon listening has had their own version of trauma that they've transcended, that they've beaten. It was hard. They didn't think they were going to get through it and they got through it. So if they're past self can do that, surely their future self can do it for future things.

But how much, you know, you would like to think so, but how much. There's only so much people can bear, you know.

Yeah, yeah, there is. I guess we all have a breaking point.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

I think you foolish. Think you don't, you know, Definitely do.

Yeah. But at the same time, surely you've got to believe that you could be anything that's thrown you away. Gambling, drugs, alcoholism, you know, things that people have to deal with every day. There's, there's cases of those things breaking people. There's cases of people after 25 years of those addictions being clean the next day forever.

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's, it's quite incredible what the, what humans and the human spirit can overcome and come up with. But there's, I think there's, I think anyone that's really gone through like big moments of suffering will know that, like, oh, I can't bear unlimited suffering. You know, there's definitely limits to this game and you know, the world could be cruel out there.

So that was the question I was going to ask you.

Yeah.

Because you're Mr. Endurance.

Yeah.

10,000 miles.

Yeah.

Is there a limit to your own endurance?

100%. Yeah.

What, 10,002.

Yeah. I mean, I was dangling around the line of it for a while around there. It's, I mean there's just different types of endurance and I, I probably shouldn't really say this because it's part of the whole, but when you choose to, when you choose to endure, it's a totally different thing because, you know, like I've, I've gone and I've gone, right. I'm going to run this 10,000 miles. But realistically, bar, bar a few days here and there when we're in the middle of nowhere, at any point, if things really got too tough for me, I could just check out and go, look, I'm done going back home. But there's, you know, the type of suffering that I saw a lot more in Africa was the type of suffering where it's like, you know, born into extreme poverty, young kids playing around in, in like swamps basically with malnourished pot bellies because they only get fed pup. That's the type of suffering that you, you Know, is put on you. I think that's. They're wildly different concepts. I think so as much as. Yeah, maybe Mr. Endurance man or whatever. Yeah. But I chose to do all of it, you know.

Right.

It's not like any. A lot. It's not like the Africa thing in any way was something that was like necessarily put on me as much. It was like that was a choice.

So if there is an all loving God, why do we have this extreme poverty and cruelty in Africa?

It's one of the most commonly asked questions, I think, isn't it? Yeah. Most of the things that people really have to say about God and that.

And why did little children, you know, get.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Innocent kids.

No, I mean it's. I really don't want to butcher the answer, so I'll try my best. I think there's. It's a. It's a complicated thing. I think we have free will as humans and we are flawed. So we're always gonna create kind of this evil things are always gonna happen in this. In that sense, if we didn't, if there was no such thing as evil or in this world and we were just forced to love each other, then is that even really love? If you're just. If that's all you've ever had, you're forced to do it, does it even really mean that you're not choosing to do it? So I think there's that and then there's also like the kind of thing that we spoke about earlier when I come back to that is I don't know what God's plan is with everything. The universe is obviously infinitely complicated in a way that we as humans were never really made to understand. And for me the question isn't like, oh, if there was a God, why is there all of these terrible things? It's like I know that God's plan is the best for us. I just don't know how painful that is going to turn out to be because, you know, there is a lot of painful things that go on in this world. There's no denying it. But I don't know how it all works, man.

Me neither. I'm fascinated to try and figure out. It seems a human thing that were trying to make everything mean something.

Yeah, yeah.

Find meaning. And sometimes I catch myself making something mean something and go, does it really mean that? Have I just made that up? Am I even smart enough to figure out what this even means anyway? Yeah, I still try and figure everything out.

Yeah, well, I do the same thing. And then I listen to people online that are way smarter than me talk about and I'll go, why am I even trying? Do you know what I mean?

Just keep running throughout the day.

Yeah. Maybe just stay in your lane, Russ.

I mean, yeah, but this is the great thing about podcasts and stuff like this. You can learn from people you've learned from and.

Yeah. And you meet people at different points of the journey as well. Like, I like to listen to the, to the, like the Jordan Petersons of the world and stuff and watch him talk about God. And I go, oh, wow, that's fascinating there. But I also know that when I first listened to him when I was like 18 or 19 or something, I'd heart. I would only be able to understand maybe a third of what he's saying because it's just all so like abstract and complicated. I can even get it.

Yeah.

So maybe like people that speak about things, they're slightly dumb. Maybe pick a few people up though, like in that early stage of like, I can't understand what the people who actually know what they're talking about are talking about. Yeah, that's kind of hopefully what I'm going for.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I had, I had Jordan on the show when he blew up.

What did you think of him?

I.

He's quite controversial these days.

Yeah. Yeah, he is. He is, is he?

Yeah.

You know, sometimes it's just media. Yeah. I found him intense.

Yeah.

And I like intensity.

Yeah.

So I don't have a problem with that. The experience wasn't great because we were locked in. My videographer was locked in a room.

Right.

Wouldn't let him set up that eight into the time. And then some guy just chatted to him for 20 minutes when he was supposed to be in with me. So it's all a bit of a rush.

Yeah, Yeah.

I found him intense, serious.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, I quite like people who take things seriously.

Yeah.

Yeah. You see what's interesting in the world right now is he's a massive influence on men. Has been. And then you've got Andrew Tate, who's a massive influence on men. And you know, you've got Jordan Peterson the intellectual, and you've got Andrew Tate who can speak to the masses.

Yeah.

Who can literally have 12 year old kids understanding his message.

Yeah.

So you've got quite an interesting cultural thing going on with two very different people.

Yeah. I mean, what do you think about Angie Tate?

I'm supposed to. That's supposed to be my question.

Yeah.

No, I don't Mind sharing. I mean, I've got to know him very well personally.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm not a female, therefore I'm maybe not as sensitive to the misogyny that others are. I don't know if he's innocent or guilty. The way I see life is you're innocent until proven guilty, and so are you. And if something was accused to me.

Yeah.

I'd like to think that you would see me as innocent until otherwise proven guilty.

Yeah.

And I, I, I take the same stand with Russell Brand when everyone went for him and all of that.

Yeah. That all seemed to go away, though, didn't it?

For now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Weird how that works.

So, you know, I, I try and take that view with everyone that I try not to color my perspective of them unless it's been proven.

Yeah.

And I look at the proof and, and I agree with it. And, you know, today there's people. I saw someone on, on Instagram. It's probably the first person I've unfollowed. She basically said, anyone who voted for Trump, you know, they're voting for this evil crime and this satanic thing and this evil thing. And, you know, I don't accept this. And it's like, I'm, I'm, I didn't vote. I'm not in America. But I thought you've just judged. You don't even know.

Yeah.

And that's a big extreme. So I think at the moment is innocent until he's proven guilty. And then if he's proven guilty and the evidence is compelling, well, then I'll put my hands up and go and say, okay, I need to change my viewpoint. I think that, I think he's got trauma from a strong male father figure in his life growing up.

Yeah.

And I think he uses that anger quite well to become successful in terms of strong body, good at fighting, and wealthy.

Yeah. Not bad things to aim for.

Not bad things to aim for. Along the way, he says some wild shit that even I look at and go, oh, yeah, yeah. And, but that doesn't trigger me too much because I think sometimes it's a kind of a joke.

Yeah.

And, you know, I take my work seriously, but I don't really take myself too seriously.

Yeah.

So if you started taking the piss out of me, I'm not like, one of my friends started shaming me in front of people. Look at Rob. Rob's never lifted in his life. Do you even lift? And I'm obviously not a bodybuilder.

Yeah, yeah.

But like, so Fucking what I don't want to be. I've never taken steroids. All you fuckers have, you know, so my balls are probably bigger than yours.

And so, like, a lot of the.

Stuff he says that winds people up probably doesn't wind me up. And I think all these young kids and all these men would not be clinging on to his message if there wasn't this major issue with masculinity in the world. And I think culturally, he's hit on it. And so a lot of people say, oh, he's really bad for boys growing up, but if they weren't lost, they wouldn't be looking to him. And I think that it is hard for young boys to know what a man is.

Nothing. That's pretty fair.

Yeah. Like, if you go to school and you're taught that there's 60 genders, you know, I'm not against any identity you can, but I think there's male and female. But, you know, my son came back at age 12, where he's probably just about to go through puberty, probably quite confused anyway, and he's being taught at school the 60 genders. That is like, I'm all for how. Identify how you want. I honestly do mean that. However you want to identify, I'm cool with it. But don't confuse my son, age 12. That's a problem for me. Yeah, yeah.

So that actually happened. So he was at school and they. They wanted to teach him about 60 genders. Yeah.

I mean, I don't think they sat and went through every single gender school, but, you know, they're teaching this stuff of how many genders there are, and that seems really confusing at that age.

What, as a. As a parent, what do you do about it?

Give him to my wife. Yeah. I mean, you know, if it was something he did come to me and say. Say that. And I said, you know, how people identify is how they want. But your sex is very clear.

Yeah.

You know, and you are a male. I'm clear about that. Go have a look in the mirror. You're very clear about that. Don't let anyone. Because it's just like growing up as a kid. And, Yeah, I know in some ways life is a bit easier than, you know, when I was a kid, but it's also, in a lot of ways, a lot harder and a lot more confusing. When we were growing up, it was like, okay, have you got a bigger dick than me? Have you got pubes? And I haven't. And how do I get those girls?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, they were My problems. And like, now it's just. What do you think about that?

Here we go.

I love the way you spun that. He just wound me up.

What do I think about that? I think this is super worthy to get into.

Do it, do it, but just be yourself.

No, no, I, I think, like, so my number one stance on anything like this would always be love first.

Yeah. So passion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Obviously, I'm a Christian. I, I believe in male and female. I know that there is some. There is some few cases where that does seem to be, like, legitimately getting blurred.

Yeah.

In there. I always would have, like, if anything, I think as Christians, it's our job to love anyone that's like going through a confusing time. Like, they're not sure what their identity is. In that sense, it's our job to treat them with maximum amount of love possible. And I would really try and refrain from any kind of judgment on that group of people, but I do understand that when it gets into the school system and children, then it does become quite inflammatory for parents. And I can't, I'm not, I'm not there yet. So I don't fully. I can't fully relate, but I can understand how that would become, you know, a bit where you'd be like, oh, I've had enough now. Yeah, yeah, I think is. I get that. It's just, it's super confusing for, for the young people out there that have that kind of mixed messaging going around. But yeah, I mean, my, my. I guess my message would just be like, love first, and then let's have a conversation out of that instead of this kind of culture war that gets created around, which I think maybe actually just pushes people even further into the extremes. Yeah.

And the algorithms only reward polarizing, extreme content.

Yeah.

If you say, hey, hey, I've got a balanced view.

Yeah, exactly. You know, it's better if I'm to come on a podcast and be like, yeah, well, do you know what? Yeah, that group of people, that group of people, it's not very entertaining to come here and go, no, you know what? I understand this group people. I think we should love them. And this. I understand your point of view as well, and I think we should love you as well. And it just doesn't. Just doesn't mix well. But that's maybe part of the problem that, like a nuanced conversation is a bit. It's not, you know, it's not clip worthy. It's not. It's difficult.

But at least in a podcast, you can have it yeah. This is why I like this medium.

Yeah.

Because, you know, I'm on question four of 24.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because we've let this go and we have had a nuanced conversation.

Yeah.

We have had, I think this. But I also can appreciate this. And so, you know, maybe Trump, I. Maybe Trump won. Trump won the election because of Joe Rogan. Because, Harry, listen to it. I haven't listened to all of it yet. But my point is going to be not so much about what Trump said, just the fact that he went on Joe Rogan, 100 million views. He went on Theo. Fine. He went on Patrick, bet David, you had those three up, probably quarter of a billion views, adding the Spotify and everything, maybe even half a billion views. Harris didn't do any of that. And then Joe Rogan endorsed him and he only won, I think, by 6 or 7 million votes. It was 71 million to 66 million, I think, when I looked. Or 65.

Yeah.

And Joe Rogan is a place where you can go and have a three hour, completely nuanced conversation. Not black or white, not clickbait, not polarizing. You'll go everywhere.

Yeah.

And so I just think, hallelujah for this format and for these long conversations.

No, I totally agree, actually. I think these are needed more, especially like you look at Instagram and TikTok is just pure drivel. Absolute drivel.

It is. We sort of have to play the game a bit.

Yeah.

Because if we have a thumbnail and title, this will get.

No, yeah, no, I mean, we've done the whole YouTube thing. Yes.

You have to play that game.

And it makes a huge difference on what gets watched or not. Yeah.

You know, I've had some chats with some really creative, arty people in, you know, pop stars and in music and stuff like that about this sort of paradox between, you know, wanting to do good art and saying, here's my good art.

Yeah.

And not some clickbaity thumbnail and whatever else. But without the thumbnail and the title, it doesn't even get viewed, you know, without you doing all your social media and all your interviews, everything, you know, you're just running on your own. Yeah, yeah. Through Africa.

Yeah. No, I mean, is a. It's a hard one to kind of.

Are you okay playing that game? You know, being a bit of a whore on the front end?

Well, honestly, it's something I thought about probably quite a lot since I've been back, because, you know, is that a good game to be playing? Like, I understand. It's like in Some ways it's just marketing, isn't it? But for me, anyway, especially post Africa, I've spent a lot of time thinking, all right, like, I'm going to build this platform now. I best use it for something worthwhile. Like if. If I'm going to take people, you know, because that's essentially what we're trying to do here with all of these content kind of stuff. We're trying to take people's attention. Right. That's what we want is, you know, I'm going to want. I want all these people's attention. It's quite self indulgent. It's quite narcissistic being like, I'm worthy of this attention.

Yeah.

I think for me, a lot of it is like, well, if we are going to try and do that, then we do need to try and somewhat pass. Pass a good message on and then part or pass something good on from it. It can't just be, oh, I'm running the length of Africa, come and donate and come and. Or coming, buying my stuff, or I'm sponsored by these people, blah, blah, blah. It needs to be a bit more like, okay, what you actually provide into the world, Russ, you know, otherwise I don't want it. I actually don't want it if it's not. If I can't figure out how to provide something good. I don't want attention for attention's sake. It's not. It's just, what's the point in that?

Yeah, I think. I think that's a really good way of looking at it. And unfortunately, the algorithms just reward attention for attention sake.

Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, it is. It's like a self thing because you see, you watch creators go on this, they go, oh, I did this. And people really loved it. So now I'm going to up the ante and I'm going to. Yeah. And I think sometimes that is how the. And Andrew Tate's probably way smarter than me, so I don't want to, like, disrespect him too heavily. But it's kind of how people end up in the saying, the maddest ever is because they know that that's better. Bangs.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's like, yeah, what should we do today? Let's call these people faggots and whatever he's saying. And like, yeah, like, you go. You go on his. On his Twitter and it's just like, this person's a faggot and this person's a.

He's going mad at the moment and it's like, oh, pretty much every ist. Racist, homophobic. Yeah. He's just picking them off. Yeah.

I think the. That's why, like, I think I try and detach myself from like my achievements or my.

Right.

Social media too much because I don't want to get sucked into that. I know. You know, I'm going to at times. I don't want to get sucked into it too much.

Yeah, yeah. Right.

But games. A game and all that, you know.

Yeah.

We've all got to put food on the table and make a career out something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I think this paradox of life will never end.

Yeah. Nice.

Yeah.

Just try and navigate as best as possible.

Because I think about the analogy, I always think about, as an artist, you could make the most amazing art. And if no one's looking at it, is it even art? It's an expression of self possession. But surely every artist wants their work to be seen and loved.

Yeah, well, yeah. And I mean, it's an interesting point to, like, how would you measure success? How do you measure success of your podcast? You measures the success on the amount of people to watch it, the impact that it has for the people to watch it. Like, how do you actually. How do you guys do that?

Yeah. That's a very good question.

Because numbers is so easy to look at and go, the numbers doing well. So we're doing well.

Yeah. And so for me, the measure is, did I feel really good about the episode.

Yeah.

I e. Did we have a good conversation? And how do I feel afterwards? And if there wasn't much from them, I feel a bit empty.

Yeah.

Or if I was chasing a bit. Sometimes I'm like, I've got to get something out of this and I chase something a bit gimmicky. Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel a bit dirty.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And you know, I don't want to play that game if I don't have to to. But I will. I have got that barometer whereby I'll feel dirty if I pull out a gimmick. So it's always afterwards, people surprise you. But if I feel like. Like I'm feeling really good about this.

Yeah.

And if I feel like this is a great piece of art, I'll put it up.

Yeah.

I'll do a thumbnail and a title that might pick out the racy bits.

Yeah.

But I honestly won't give a if it gets views or not. However, I. I will still have to go to certain guests because I know they get views.

Yeah.

To keep the channel alive.

Yeah.

Because I'm Paying David. I'm paying all the staff back at the office. I'm paying all the short form editors. You know, we've got all the equipment, paid my driver. It's a long trip.

Yeah.

So ideally I have really meaningful conversations with really interesting people and we create great art and sprinkled in between. I've got to play the game and get some views.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Because you can't, you know, I'm sure you don't care about the views, but for example. Well, I do. If. Yeah, well, that's. If it came out and was like, oh, 100 views. Yeah. Views 50.

That would make you feel shit.

Oh, shit. Yeah.

You know, you. Here's the, here's the thing. If you sell one book or a million books, I've written 19 books. I'm gonna go through this. If you sell one book or a million books, it doesn't change one single word in the book.

Yeah, yeah.

But if you sold one book or a million books, it would completely, wildly change how you felt about that book.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's the same book.

Yeah, yeah.

At least with this we can edit it and if it doesn't do well first time, we can edit it and change it. The book's already pointing over there because your book. But that book is done.

Yeah.

So did you get a sense of I feel good about this book when you sell copies, you know, and obviously you've been on some big shows and you've sold a load or can you honestly detach from that and you don't care?

I think I've done a pretty good job of detaching from it. You know, I've put it out there and I don't even know what the. How many is sold or anything. I don't literally don't even know.

Let's shout it out. So let's sell a few more. Yeah.

It's called Hardest Geezer Mind Over Miles. So it kind of documents like a lot of Africa and how it happened, all of the behind the scenes stuff on that, but also quite a lot of the backstory of how I came to even thinking about it and the journey of my younger years and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I'm proud of it. It's a good book. Everyone that's like most people have read it anyway. You get the odd one or two to leave a shit review, but pretty much everyone that's read it has. It's inspired them or help them in some way. So happy days. But you know, it's out there. It's not me, it's my book. So I try not to. So you have.

It's not. I like that. It's not me, it's my book.

Yeah.

Yeah. But if you sell a load of copies, do you get a good feeling inside?

I feel. I actually don't. I actually feel like I'm fairly indifferent. My publisher probably hate me for saying that. Fairly indifferent to how many years it does.

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Indifference about the book, I think, is a fun, fine feeling because I'm not defined by the book sales. You know, like, that's not.

But you're allowed to get excited if you.

I'm allowed to, yeah. I'm allowed to get excited and I, And I do get excited, but I think, like, I try and like proportionately excited.

This.

There's some things in life to get excited about and there's other things to that, like, oh, cool, that happened, you know, that's great. And we're all motivated by different things, selling loads of books. Like if people read the book and that genuinely helps them, then that would Be more, I'd be more buzzing about that than selling loads of copies, I think.

Yeah. And that's something. I agree with that. That's something I've come to learn a lot more in recent years. Because you're so. You are really not that in control of your views unless you learn the algorithm and you become an algorithm whore. Which I refuse to do.

Yeah, yeah.

And I know others that have become that and they've become very successful. I refuse to do that.

Yeah.

I'll play certain games, but I refuse to be an algorithm and blah, blah, blah. So what that means is sometimes I'm gonna be like, oh, that didn't get the views I wanted. Sometimes I'm going to be surprised. But the thing that keeps you going through the whole time is when you, you read the comments and people love the work.

Yeah.

And, you know, people say that your content really helped them, help them through depression in my instance. It's a lot about helping people make money. Yeah, that's there all the time. And sometimes you have a 10, 20,000 viewer, but it helps a lot of people. Sometimes you have a 2 million viewer and it's just didn't really have much impact.

Yeah, I think, well, this, it's like the authenticity element of it all as well, isn't it? It's just, do, do you want to sell yourself for the views? Maybe you do. Well, if it's.

The thing is, maybe not. But if it's your living.

Yeah, I get. Yeah, I'll get it. And some people would probably go down that route of like, this is just my job and, you know, fully. There's loads of people doing it in obviously loads of different ways and like everyone's on their own path. But I don't. Yeah, I don't know. It's like you can play to the algorithm so much that you just end up molding your personality to the algorithm.

And then when it changes, you've got to change. When it changes, you've got.

And it's like. I don't know if that doesn't necessarily feel like the right way.

No, not for me.

For me anyway. Like, I would want to necessarily do it more. Like we're gonna act on the, the values that I have and we're gonna make this stuff that I believe is gonna be important or that I want to make, and hopefully that coincides enough with the algorithm that some of it works anyway.

I agree.

I think. Yeah.

Yeah.

But I mean, you've been doing this a long time, so you'd. How long do you save your name.

Yeah. Nine years.

Wow.

Nine years. Part time with all my other interests. But, yeah, we've had some ups and downs, some highs and lows and courted controversy and it's. I mean, Andrew Tate blew us up.

Yeah.

Blew us up when, you know, so we went wildly viral. And then this shadow ban, that Shadow band, that shadow David Iker got him on when people were starting to actually see that some of the things he was saying was true and he wasn't just a wacko. Yeah, blew us up. Shadow band. Shadow man. Shadow man sitting up. Right, okay. I'll go back to entrepreneurs, millionaires and billionaires. I've had 23 billionaires with great stories. The billionaires never get any views, really.

And they've probably got the best lessons to teach.

So it's. So, yeah, it's been like. You remember those old graphic equalizers that.

Go up and down like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what it's been like.

Interesting.

So as the guy that's run the length of Africa, the only guy in the world, how do you build resilience?

How'd you build resilience? I'm going to steal that. I heard someone else say this before, but they were talking about giving yourself. Building enough evidence in yourself to know that you can do something and that will give you the confidence. That's what confidence is. And then, like, on the resilience. The resilience end of things for me is it's mostly like a way up, right between. This is how I. I like, negotiated things in my brain. But I've got the pain of the moment right now, which is, you know, either pissing blood or we've just been robbed at gunpoint, or I've been held hostage in the jungle, I've got this back injury and I can't sleep and blah, blah, blah, going through the desert or whatever. And then I've got the pain of quitting. And it's like, ah, what one do you want, mate? Because you gotta pick one. And for me, the pain of quitting was just always way more intense than anything else. So I'm not saying that I would never quit. I'm saying that I made quitting so painful that it meant I could bear quite a lot before I would even think about quitting.

That's very powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Endurance. How do you build endurance? Is that the same as resilience or is that different?

No, I'd say it's different. I think, like, the endurance, the physical endurance for me is literally just practice, practice. Practice, like, thousands of hours out on the road, running, just building that evidence that shows me that I'm capable and just, like, one step at a time. I didn't start off an amazing runner or anything, but been out there an awful lot. So I guess it's like, with you in business, right? Like, similar kind of principle. Just you go, you put yourself out there, you try, try, try, you it up a little bit, then you learn from it, and then you keep going, keep going. 17 years later. It's kind of mental. What can happen. Yeah. It's purely just a reps thing.

Wow.

I tried to simplify everything as much.

As possible, but I think simple is profound. And the good thing about that is anyone can do reps. Yeah. There's no secret recipe. Anyone can do more reps today than they did yesterday.

Yeah. I think one of the biggest things that stops people doing reps is, like, they're scared of failing. Like, they're scared of the embarrassment of failing, but, like, the amount of times that I failed doing so much stuff. You know, I went into Project Africa right at the start. I had 10 grand less than 4% of the budget. Had all this pressure, people working for me that I couldn't pay. Yet. I borrowed money up to my eyeballs, got myself in loads of debt halfway across the world, and I had no. Like, I had. I'd failed in almost like every other business that I'd ever been in. So failing, you, like, fail, fail, fail, and then eventually, like, you learn enough that you. You'll get it. And it's like no one remembers any of those failures that no one even knows about. Most of them, they're all done undercover. But, like, they see the success that I'm like with Africa, it's like, man, I failed so much before that. It's actually hilarious.

And what is your attitude to failure now?

It's still. It's still battle. I'm definitely still scared to fail with some things. Think. But I always do try and remind myself that, like, my biggest successes have grown out of my biggest failures. And failing is. Is, you know, not necessarily the enemy. It's often just the enemy of doing it.

Yeah.

It's the enemy of, like, actually going out there and putting yourself on the line and saying, I think I can do it. We'll find out.

Yeah.

Yeah. What's your relationship with failure? Do you. Have you failed a lot younger years or.

Yeah, I've been scared of failure my whole life.

Yeah.

And probably up to the age of 27, I would just avoid it. At all costs. I would only do anything if I knew I was guaranteed.

Yeah.

Whether it was getting a job or asking a girl out or anything. I would never do it unless I was 99% sure I would get a yes.

Yeah.

And I just. You know, people say, oh, I don't regret things. I don't live like that. I always ask. I'll ask you, you know, if you have any regrets. And most people say, say, I don't have regrets. Well, I do.

Yeah. Yeah.

One of them is there were so many chances I never took, so many questions I never asked, so many things I never tried because I was just scared of them saying no. In the shame.

Yeah.

Because I couldn't detach between. They're not rejecting me, Rob the human. It's just the moment, the time, the occasion, which is where I learned that identity attachment that you. You understand. And then my dad had this major nervous breakdown. He got beaten up by the police. He got sectioned. He got diagnosed with bipolar. We couldn't see him for months. He was really fucking ill. And I just felt such intense shame that I just thought, well, what if I got to lose? And what does it matter if I go bust? What does it matter if I try and blag a job that I don't really know what I'm doing and they find me out? What does it fucking matter?

Yeah.

And then from age 27, just started trying. Shit. Tried. Started selling marketing, launching podcasts, launching businesses, going into estate agents, blagging to buy property when I had no fucking clue.

Yeah.

And that's actually the quickest way to learn.

Yeah.

Is just like on the job, doing it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You could. You can visualize running 10,000 miles or you can fucking get running.

Yeah. Get trying and figure out along the way.

Yeah.

That's largely what I did. My plan changed a lot. And there's so many things that we were like, never thought of that or, you know, this type of thing. But. Yeah, no, it's exactly like you said. You just go out there, you ain't gonna have all the answers to start with, but if you've got enough passion and desire to figure out along the way.

And this whole thing we've touched on about serious, you know, I said how intense and serious Jordan Peterson and David Goggins are and were. I have this theory. Be fucking serious about your work, but not serious about life and what people say to you and the shit you read online. So if you don't take yourself seriously, but you do take your work seriously. I think That's a good combination.

Yeah, that sounds. No, that sounds like really strong advice, actually. I don't think I've ever quite thought of it like that. But now that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, because sometimes I, you know, I obviously meet some pretty successful, intense, cool, interesting people and like, I'm driving down or I'm flying. I'm thinking, I hope they like me.

Hope they get on well.

What if they don't like me? What if they think I'm a twat? What if they think I'm a shit interviewer? But so fucking what? Yeah, if they don't like me, that's their fault, not mine.

Nice. It's an interesting concept. Yeah, I like it. I like it. Take your work seriously, but.

But not chill out with everything. Yeah. I mean, you seem like quite laid back. You smile a lot. You know, you left the door open, you took a really loud piss, you know, obviously like that. Exactly. You don't give a. You know, you welcome us into your home. You. You got like. I get the sense that, you know, there's a lot of you've seen in the world that's really awful. So when, when you don't have to be like that and you can just have fun. Surely that's good.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, that was like a large part of my approach to the whole. To the whole mission was I can't. I don't know about other people. I can't level operate at that level of intensity for 352 days in a row. So I'm taking my rest bikes wherever I fucking am. You know, I'm trying to get. Laughing at every, like, any opportunity. Opportunity. Yeah, you know? Yeah, anything to just kind of ease off. Because the nature of it is that there's certain parts that do have to be intense. Like what you said with the works, like, oh, you know, you have to turn up to work and you do have to be serious about it and you do have to get it done.

Yeah.

And it's like, yeah, right. When it's go time, it's go time, boys. When it's not go time, it's absolutely not go time.

Yeah, you're intense with both.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like intensely chill out and laugh or intensely run through that brick wall head first.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And on the note of intensity, right, who wins out of you and David Goggins doing a straight up run until you drop me? You reckon you can take him because he's an intense guy and he runs all these ultra marathons and 60 miles a day. But you think you can outrun him.

Respect. Respect.

You're allowed to be calm with respect. You beat David Goggins.

Yeah.

Are you going to call him out, then?

I could. I mean, the thing is, Goggins, look, he's. What is he. How old is he now? 48. Yeah, maybe I'm entering into the whole Jake, Paul, Mike Tyson. Do you know what I mean? I'm 27.

Oh, you feel a bit of sympathy for him?

Nah, just like.

Because he might be motivated if he's older than you.

He's 48 and 10 years ago, you know, we're maybe talking about something different. But he's 48. Age is real. Don't you know what I mean?

Yeah.

I'm sure he's still actually pretty at it, to be fair.

Yeah. But I think it would be compare. I think the Internet would love you versus David Goggins.

I'm down. Mr. Goggins, if you would like to, I will happily take part.

You won't outrun David Goggins.

I will outrun you.

But you're going to need a longer continent than Africa. Is there a longer continent than Africa?

We can do it wherever you want. I'll come to your house. We'll do it in your back garden. Anywhere, anytime. Let me know.

This is going to be a long Facebook Live. If we Facebook live, it'll be live for three years. You guys will still be running.

Yeah, no, I think that'd be. It would be interesting, wouldn't it? I would love to.

Yeah.

I don't think you. I don't think we'll get a nibble on it, but we can but try.

All right. I would love to see that.

Yeah, I'm on it. Come on, Mr. David.

Come on, David.

You've been on USA versus the UK, the ultimate showdown. Well, I've always.

I think we're starting something here.

We could dust the Yanks. We got them. We got them. I'll do it for the country.

Well, we need something to be positive. Right. So we do quick fire rounds.

Yeah.

On disruptors. What's a 30 second or less tip for developing great mental strength?

Quite. I've taken up half the time by breathing. 30 second or less.

It will start from when you use your first word.

We'll still let you have your 30. Tip for. What was it? Tip for Developing mental.

Good mental strength.

Yeah, Good mental strength. Do progressively hard things repetitively, continuously and you'll gradually get a lot better than you ever thought. Nice.

Are you running away from something? In your.

Oh, here we go. The therapy session has started, right? Yeah.

We're doing more than 30 seconds on this.

Am I running away from something in my life? I don't think so, but maybe. Maybe we all are.

No, I think it's a common thing for long distance runners to be running away from something.

I would rather ask you this. I actually think other people are probably better placed to answer this than when you ask the person, what are your thoughts on. Like, I know we've only chatted for an hour or so and maybe you've seen some stuff online, baby, but do you think I'm running away from things? And I trust that you'd actually tell me if you thought I was.

I would tell you if I thought you were. I'm not picking up anything from what I've researched or I feel more like you're running towards something. Not.

I would hope that's the case. But you can never be too sure about these things.

What's your biggest trauma that you've ever experienced in your life?

Biggest trauma? I had some quite rough years when I was younger with my parents. Fell out quite badly and I didn't speak to them for a long time. Moved out when I was quite young. I mean, it was bad at the time, but relatively speaking, it's a pretty minor thing to go through. My dad had, similar to your dad, some big mental health problems when I was younger as well. I found that quite traumatic when I was a kid.

Yeah. Yeah. Because sometimes that motivates running away from something. But what about this? Maybe you're running towards being loved.

See, I think that's potentially that is it. And I'm also like, is that a bad thing? I don't think it is. You know, I actually think that's good thing to be doing. You'd like run towards being loved. I definitely think when I was younger I had this. I don't know if you've ever felt this, like this force that wanted to like prove myself and I wanted to prove other people wrong about me and I wanted to go and show people, like, you're all wrong about me. You're right. I'm like, I'm that guy, whatever. But what I think I've come to find is that that's. That's super powerful motivating force. It's like, it's like jet fuel. It's like really, there's nothing that'll get you off your ass like that. Whether it's like, you know, like a good one for that is like heartbreak or like you've been rejected by this person, family, whatever it is. Right. All of that stuff is like. But if you, if you chow down on that too long, it's pretty toxic. So it's like, it's good for a bit. Use it wisely because once, once you start basing your whole life off that, you, I think you become quite, you can become quite a toxic person.

Yes.

But if you want to use it every now and again for a little scuba dive into the fucking pain cave, then maybe you could get away with it.

Yeah, yeah, I understand that completely. I can relate to that. I think it's very powerful motivator. But just don't let it consume you because in the end it's about them and not you.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's dangerous.

Super dangerous. But also can help you get some really big stuff done really quickly.

Yes, I'm gonna show.

Yeah.

Right. Okay. Back to the quick fire round.

Cool.

What is the daily routine of the world's longest endurance athlete? Do you get up at 2am and have an ice bath?

No, none of that. None of that. Daily routine at the moment's super mixed because I'm like off doing, you know, book this week and then school tours and then all of this kind of other stuff. So it's super scatty at the moment. But in Africa, for example, it would be wake up generally, probably 8am I would always try and prioritize as much sleep as possible. It's the best way to recover. So I would never, generally never be one of these. Early, early 5am get out there. Nah, off, man, I'm sleeping. Get out about. Yeah, wake up eight, maybe running by nine, and then I do 20 kilometers, have breakfast, another 20 kilometers, have lunch, another 20 kilometers, have dinner, go sleep. Done.

Yeah, that's a good clip.

Yeah.

I wake up at 8 and then 20 kilometers something. 20 kilometers something. 20 kilometers something.

Done.

Right.

Yeah.

How does, what does Emily think of all this? I mean, does like, does Emily fit in?

No, she does. Well, we, you know, relationships are always like, we. We've really tried to navigate these things well. And I think that's actually why we're here. Why we're still here is because, you know, when we, we are normal people in the day, we still have arguments like every relationship does. We still pulling on each other in different ways. I want you to do this, she wants me to do that, blah, blah, blah. But I think the one thing that we are really good at is we'll have our argument, we'll have our disagreement about xyz, but we will come and chat about it afterwards. And the, the best probably marker for us is that our relationship gets better after these things happen. Like we do actually work through it. So yeah, I mean she's, she is great. She supported me so much throughout all of my stuff and she continues to even, I think yesterday or day before I was like, so, babe, what do you think about our pole to pole mission? She's like, look, if you want to do it, you can do it. But she's, you know, she's very much like on board of supporting whatever it is that I'm doing. I think we just, as long as we know that we're on the same page of like why I'm doing it or what I want, what I'm trying to achieve, then we're all good. So how long have you been with.

Your Mrs. Oh, 18 years.

18 years. So I mean, ups and downs, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. And she was with me when I was, you know, struggling and she supported me the whole way.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that probably doesn't get enough attention. It's not. I remember when I met David Goggins and was talking to him and he said sometimes he has to sit his wife down and go, look, I gotta go, I'll be back in a year. I've gotta go, look, I want you to love me but you can't get in my way. I've gotta go.

Yeah.

And you know, wives and sometimes husbands are very driven people.

Yeah.

They sometimes have to put themselves second or third and let the, let the guy go and do his crazy mission.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's. Yeah. I mean that's the difficult part about it, isn't it? But also you're right, like it's serving the other person as best you can. I think that's what love is really, isn't it? So we, you know, we try and navigate that as best as possible. Obviously when I'm away for X amount of time, then it is no point pretending it's not. Doesn't come with its problems or its tricky moments. Because it does.

Yeah.

But yeah, I love it's bits and we work for it as best as we can.

That's great.

Yeah.

You've run the whole of Africa and everyone knows it. But what, what is a secret you've never shared or a story you've never told?

Well, that's a, that's a, that's. Yeah, that's the Clips. Who's, who's on Clips Team? That's a Good one. A secret that I've never shared. I don't really think I'm a secret kind of guy.

Or a story you've never told?

A story that I've never told. The stories that I haven't told is normally for good reason.

That's why I want one. I drove a long way.

Stories that I've never told. I can't even think, mate. I can't even think of a story that I've not told. A story that I've not told. Not told them. Well, I kind of have a little bit. But I'll tell this one because I haven't gone into it properly online before is when I was in the Congo I met this kiddie about 8 years old and he. We met the snake hunter in guinea and we met this kiddie in Congo and he went out hunting rats every day. And I met him on the side of the road. I've actually got a photo of him. I'll show you afterwards. I've got a photo of him. He stood on the side of the road, these two great big rats, scuffed up clothes, like all ripped up clothes and everything. And when I saw that kid that really kind of had this thing going on my mind where I was, I really admired him in a load of ways. Because you think for an eight year old to be going out, working hard, he's grafting, he's sacrificing himself to provide for his family at that age. I think like wow, that's incredible, isn't it? Like how many 8 year olds in this country would you get doing that?

Not.

Probably not many. But then at the other side of it I'm thinking the amount of suffering and like, you know, he's not getting an education, he's risking his life in the jungle every day. All this kind of stuff that he's going through, is that right? And is that something that I should be like admiring and endorsing about a culture? Because that's the culture that's kind of let that happen. So that was, that was like about 120 or 130 days into the mission where I was one of the first times where I've really sat there. I remember running for a few days, thinking about that, just chewing on it, going like what? Because it kind of bleeds into a more of a, you know, wider thing of like, okay, if you could go into a country like the Congo for example, like colonizers have done like the Belgium and, or England in Africa we've, we've done A lot of it. And help them with stuff. Is that a good thing to do or is it a bad thing to do? And what are the pros and what are the cons? And you just. You end up in. Well, I didn't. Ended up in this rabbit hole thinking like, that situation is a bit more complicated than the first thing. So before I went out, I was like, oh, colonization, that's a terrible thing. We should never have done that. Then after, I'm like, huh, Is it? Yeah. I mean, there's. There's two. There's. There's pros and cons to it and super complex. And it's not quite as straightforward as going, it's a bad thing or it's a good thing. Yeah. So that story about that kid in the Congo always makes you think about that. What do you think? Colonization good or bad?

I agree with you. I think that so many things in life we think are simple because we put our own values or vantage point on it. And in reality, it's all very different. And if you go over and just claim a nation and murder a load of people, I don't see the good in that. If you improve their lives significantly over time, I see good in that. And I imagine you've had both extremes of colonization.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think.

I mean, why are you doing it as well? Is it, you know. Yeah, just for ego and power doesn't feel like, necessary.

Yeah, no, that's. But I think it kind of also speaks to, like, the. The wider political stance that a lot of you see, like the. All of these election campaigns take place, and it's like, simplifying really complex things. And it'll be like, oh, you know, you don't want immigration, for example, therefore you're racist. Or on the other side, it would be like, you know, you want equal rights or you want whatever thing, and therefore you're a woke, you know.

Yeah. Idiot.

What? Blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you see a lot of that. I see a lot of that going on.

Well, immigration's the one subject it seems, isn't it, where it's just so divided.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, yeah, people are branded racists.

Yeah.

But that, to me, seems like the most complicated thing ever.

Super complicated.

My wife.

I don't actually think there's. I really don't think that there's a clear, like, way out of that either, to be honest.

No.

Because as, like, you hear like, the. I know you had Nigel Farage on last, and he's like, I don't know exactly what his stance is anyway. But you probably tell me he's. He was. He's more on like stop less. We need much less immigration. And I understand that from a. Like allowing people to assimilate culturally to the, to the uk. You need, you know, if you have too much, then it becomes a problem. But also you've got like the whole economics of. Well, if you just took all of these workers out of the country, then what's gonna. The. Surely the whole economy is gonna half collapse on that.

Yeah.

So what you do. Because people in the UK aren't having kids like they used to. So it's not like we're replacing the population like we used to. So what I don't know, would you get like, would you stop immigration and then have deal with that problem or would you keep immigration and then kind of like work on the assimilation front of things?

I don't know the answer to that.

Yeah. So, I mean, clearly, like, it doesn't seem like much of politicians really know the answer either.

No, they don't.

What would Nigel Fry say to. I'd be interested to hear what he would say to that.

Yeah. I don't want to speak for him. I think I know what he would say.

Yeah.

But I don't want to. I know him very well, but I don't want to speak for him in case.

Of course. Yeah.

Take it out of context. But immigration is so complicated because you have nations and borders where you have your own cultures.

Yeah.

And that's allowed. That's called a community.

Yeah.

And if someone or some people come into your community who don't fit your values, you're allowed to not have them in your community. So on the one hand, when people take quite a strong anti immigration stance, I don't immediately ban them as racist, sexist.

Yeah.

And I understand it like in London, I actually really like a cosmopolitan culture. I like going down and seeing lots of different types of people in different restaurants and. And there's a buzz and energy about that.

Yeah.

But it's also. What is Britain?

Yeah.

We don't make anything anymore. What are we known for? What can you say we are. So I see both sides and then like this is terrible, heartbreaking story. But you know, immigration, when it's illegal, are people in other countries selling you some scam passport. And you just want to get to the UK because you want to honestly work because you know the country is ruined that you're in.

Yeah.

And you're taking your baby and your children on a boat and then like this one man, he worked God knows how many years to be able to afford to get a passport to come to the UK Was, of course, all illegal. Yeah, he didn't know that because he was missiled. And his. He's in this boat and his freaking, you know, newborn baby drowns, and he's still coming to the UK still, you know, trying to come to. To make a better life. And actually, immigrants are often far better, harder workers in the UK than some of the lazy bastards. And if you look at a lot of very successful people, they are immigrants. Yeah, they had to work fucking hard. And so, yeah, I like, it's so complicated.

Yeah. But that's why I find it hard to. When people have such really, really strong opinions on. On this and they get. They get so, you know, offended and also, like, just hateful in the way they're speaking either direction because it happens on both sides. I'm like, do you not understand how, like, it's actually quite a complicated issue to solve that. Like, surely people will just bowl in, they'll jump on the podcast, get him out, get them all out. Like, you know, they'll be like, he's a racist. Okay, maybe there is elements of that.

But I'm like, yeah, but here's something to talk about, because I think about this a lot and I don't talk about it. I think it's great to honor complication and nuance.

Yeah.

Nothing is black or white. But the problem is then you make everything more fucking complicated.

Yeah, well, that's it. That is a no. That is a really worth our point because you need to make some action.

You've got to have some policy.

You have to have some values. Yeah. Yeah, you have to. If you don't, then you just end up in a fucking world of mess. And it's a load of nonsense of what we even do in here. So I get it. And that's why my part of my probably controversial take would be like, I kind of have more respect for politicians than most because I'm like, I would hate to be making those decisions.

And they're not paid very well.

No, they're paid shit.

Yeah.

And I'd be like, you know, if someone sat me down. Right, Russ, you need to drop the immigration policy. I'd be like, piss that lot off. Or piss that lot off. Yeah, you're inciting, you know, in. In a lot of people. So I actually kind of sympathize with. Oh, rough. But. Oh, you did choose to be here. But I mean, someone's got to do it. Yeah, I just think it's like how do we incentivise the best people to get into it?

Yeah.

Because you want those decisions to be getting made by the people that are the most informed and the most like they know the most about these and they're most competent in that area. I don't know if that's the case.

What do you think about upping the salaries? Less of them but more quality?

No, I think it's a good idea. I think it's a really, you know, people in those positions are high, high responsibility jobs and there should be a salary that reflects that.

Yeah.

Probably not very well accepted. A lot of people would probably think that's bullshit. But yeah, I mean they're paid not bad, aren't they? But there's a lot of perks, I guess.

Yeah.

But when you think, you know, if someone of that level of competence could go in, into the private sector and go and be work for some big corporate, they're probably going to earn 10x what they would as a salary. As a politician you don't really want to create that. You want to create an incentive that's going to get people in there that are super competent and they're going. That's what you know, that's why they're there.

Well, this is. I agree. And this is why. Well, in the private sector you have reward and punishment.

Yeah.

If you are giving the market what they want, you make profit. If you're not, you lose your money, you go bust, you're fucked.

Yeah.

And so the private sector is pure merit based and I like merit based. You get unlimited reward if you do well, but you get penalized badly if you fuck up the public sector you have no merit. If they do really well, there's no reward and if they do really shit, there's no penalty. Like look at lockdown, whether you, you know, I would even go on record and say maybe that was a crime against humanity. Maybe. But they weren't even tried, they weren't even questioned. They just got away with it. They had, there was no punishment for that. But also there's no reward if they handled it well. If there's reward, punishment and incentive within politics, that is the public sector becomes more like the private sector. Maybe there's some solutions there.

Yeah. The private sector isn't like as I get, the private sector is really good for, for a lot of and of that kind of stuff motivating people to do well. But then I think you get some examples in America, for example, like with the health sector in America where I'm like, oh, if the function of like the health service. The function of the health service I don't think should be to make money because then you're kind of getting, you're mixing it a bit and you don't think like the function of the health service is to keep people healthy.

But we have a health service which isn't a for profit corporation yet. It costs the taxpayer.

Yeah, yeah.

Hundreds of millions and it's fucked.

Yeah.

And it doesn't work and then you have to go private.

Yeah, I know it's not great. But the American system though, do you think that's better?

Would you rather that I'm not in America?

Yeah.

So I can't say.

But like they've got sky high insurance and they'll go and you know, you, you, you break your arm, you've got a five grand bill, ten grand bill, whatever it is, kid falls over and now you've life savings getting.

But that I, that opens another question which is, is that the fault of that industry or is it because it's not being governed properly?

Because, well, it's like. But if the free market has no constraints, then that's kind of what happens.

But you're always going to have a government so there's always going to be some constraints. I mean, probably the biggest challenge of a government is knowing when to intervene and when.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And lockdown I thought was over intervention. So, you know, it's like billionaires. Why billionaires pay no tax? What, are you going to blame the billionaire or are you going to blame the politicians that let them and take bungs off them?

Yeah.

If they were governed properly. I, you know, I'm a free, I don't have to label myself, but I am more in support of free markets.

I think I probably would be as well. Yeah.

They still need some governance, but they either get none or 100%.

Is it 100 governance though?

Like. Well, I mean when taxes are as high as they are.

Yeah.

You know, like we're as close to a hundred percent tax as you possibly could be.

Are we?

We are 100. Well, it's never going to be 100 because we would all just leave.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we would.

Like there's the thing called the Laffer Curve. At 0% tax the government gets zero tax revenue. At 100 tax revenue and it goes in a bell curve.

Yeah.

You're never going to have a hundred because we'd all leave.

Yeah.

So there's a point where you're as close to the hundred in. In where we all go off.

Yeah.

I'm going to Africa to run the whole country and we are getting dangerously close. There's double the amount of successful entrepreneurs and millionaires leaving every year. So we're at like this intervention of controls and policies and laws. But there's intervention of. All your money you earn is tax revenue.

Yeah. No, honestly, I don't like being taxed. It's not just the next man, but.

But I don't mind being taxed a fair amount.

Yeah, no, that's it.

Because I know I need the roads maintained, the police, we need the school. And I just. But you just don't want palpable unfairness at the moment.

Yeah. You just don't want the government to piss away our money on nonsense like inefficient. You mean like they are at the moment? Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so I guess it's like, how do you make. We want them to spend our money. It's like, take my 40 tax if you're going to spend it efficiently. If you're gonna, if you're gonna piss out of the wall, you're gonna piss a lot of people off. Yeah. It's just, that's how, that's just the game. So you just generally, though, I think like the system, it needs work. But when, when people talk about like revolutionizing the system, it's like, okay, but to what? To what? If, if this is so bad, then what? Tell me what's better.

Well, I think what's better is more people can run for government. We're only ever choosing from two, really now maybe we're creeping up to a third. And you know, when we had Conservatives in and there was lockdown, you know, you had Rishi and Liz Truss, we never got a chance to vote. It was just a very small minority of people.

Yeah.

So if, if that was a question, the first thing is let more people run. Let it be be a bit more of a fair game where. And embrace enterprise and entrepreneurship. Like we've got so many great entrepreneurs in the UK and no, no political party is using them well, they're just taxing them to shit and sending them away. Yeah. And then I think have reward and punishment in politics. If you're in a major corporation, you up, you get fired.

But let me just pose this one here. And I'm kind of thinking of the top of my head here, so you might have some comeback on this. But all the entrepreneurs in Britain, like, British ones, how much of their success is down to the like, success of the, the country and like the opportunity that they've had. They went to the British school system, one of the best school systems, you know, in the world. All like, all of these things. Like did we not maybe have an obligation to, to give back? I know maybe if we're talking about numbers, you have 40.

Yeah. So I would say that the Great Britain of the past.

Yeah.

80S, 90s, noughties.

Yeah.

Was that fertile ground where they embraced entrepreneurship. You know, where there may have been grants and subsidies and tax breaks.

Yeah.

Because don't forget an entrepreneur has to put their mortgage and their livelihood on the line to self fund a business.

And do you know what, like, I think I understand this more intimately now than I did maybe three or four years ago.

Right.

I probably, I would have been more on the side of like, oh no, I wouldn't have been like this but for the. I would have jumped on a. Fuck those billionaires, tax them to shit, get their money and spread it around. We're struggling out here, you know, and now I've gone through the, setting up a business, employing people, all of this kind of stuff and I'll go, fuck. That whole entrepreneurship game is so hard. And it's not like it's a totally different level to every other job I've had in terms of like any other job I've had. I go to work, I do what I'm supposed to do, I finish, I check out, I don't think about work for another second done. And then, and then I get on with the rest of my life. Blah, blah, work. It's all consuming. Some of these problems are just the hardest things to solve and you just about manage to figure out a way by the skin of your teeth to get through it. And then you get to the end of it and go, fuck, I ain't even got any money. Do you know what I mean? So 100% I'm in favor of rewarding people that are willing to bear that burden of going out there and creating jobs for people, stimulating the economy. All that, I think power to those people. They we really need to make incentivize that. I actually 100% agree.

Yeah. And I was going to agree with you. I think at the moment we have the nation of Britain and entrepreneurs and small business owners are enemies. They need to be allies because yeah, I've set up many successful businesses and this was a great nation to do it in. It's just a lot bloody harder now and there's more taxes and less Tax breaks and there's less support and where sort of alienated. And what made us great through 80s, 90s noughties was the nation was a fertile ground to be able to take the risk and start a business. And that's one of the things that made us great. And we're, we're losing that now. And if we bring that back.

So how do we bring it back?

Well, we've stopped putting taxes up.

Yeah.

Because VAT, you have to add VAT on its 20%, which means your prices have to be 20% more. 25% corporation tax, 45% income at the highest level now, 15% national insurance. Business rates.

Business rates are a joke. I just heard about business rates. I just tried to get a warehouse now. Yes. 50% of the rent you have to give off to the government.

Yeah, Fuck hell. And for a startup business, it can be 50, 60 grand a year for a startup business and all that comes off and like you're left down kfc licking people's fingers for food. That's what you've got left. And that's wrong.

Yeah.

But I get the quandary is we're in trillions of debt and our services are fucked and they need funding. But what labor are doing is hiking up taxes, going for business owners because it's popular for the workers. There's like an enemy between labor and capital and they, you know, labor need capital, labor workers need employers, but the workers hate the employers. And then there's the unions that are set up. But, you know, I want all my staff to make loads of money. I've got 100 staff and I want them all to be rich.

Yeah.

Because the more money they're making, the more money I'm going to make. So I don't hate labor, but it seems the nation is creating this divide between us where employers and employees, capital and labor are like at each other's throats. That needs to be solved.

No, yeah, I agree. That would. If you could unite that, then that's great. So you don't think Labour would do that. Do you think the Tories would?

Well, I mean they, they'd had 14 years at it and they did a bad job. The problem with conservatives, and Nigel said this to me, they've lost their values. Like if you think what conservatives stood for, you know, low taxes. Well, taxes are high. You know, everything they stood for became homogenized and conservatives like swung from the right way towards. What are they. So, no, I think, I predict this. I think Nigel Farage will be Prime Minister Yeah, I do. I do. And other people. Damn. Wootner said it like, nigel's not perfect. No one's perfect. But Nigel supports small business. He likes business. And that, to me, is good news. I know there was Brexit, which was obviously a mess.

I'd be interested to hear him talk about more things that aren't immigration. He seems to talk a lot about.

He's probably feeding the algorithms as well.

Yeah.

He knows how to get a good clickbait going.

Yeah. Look. But his whole kind of. Well, I'm sure there's. I'm sure he has spoken about the policies. Yeah.

Find them. And yeah, someone else needs to go because, like labor and Conservative for so long, it's just left or right. And, you know, labor are quite far left now. They are socialist. Get this.

Well, is that not a stretch?

It's not a stretch. It's not a stretch. But I'll happily be challenged.

Yeah, yeah, but.

Right. Nigel told me this.

Yeah.

Inside 10 Downing street, they've taken down all the aisle, all the old oil paintings of all the old great British Prime Ministers.

I've looked around 10 Downing street and.

They'Re putting up pictures of Communists now.

Okay. That. If that's true, then there's.

That's what I was told. So, you know, the. Yeah. I. We like. The tax burden is maybe. Some people say it's the highest since the Second World War. Some people reckon the late 70s was the highest. But basically it's the highest tax burden in 100 years since the war. Inflation just keeps going up. Our cost of living relatively is as poor as it's been since the Second World War in terms of what we can afford. If you think about how expensive housing is compared to our wages, housing's gone like that. Wages hasn't even food and everything is so much more expensive. So the quality of life is really poor.

Yeah.

And we need. We need something different.

I think so. Next. Would you vote for Nigel Farage next time around, do you think?

I mean, obviously I'd have to see the policies.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's one thing, people just vote for who they like or agree with. I've got to see the policies.

Yeah.

And I quite liked his policies. It was obviously super early, but obviously he did take a lot away from Conservatives, which helped Labour come in. Based on knowing him and based on what I think his policies might be, I think there's a fair chance. Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't. I didn't vote for Labor. I can't vote for Labour because they. They are the Most likely to take you into far left socialism, them. And I don't think that ever ends well.

I mean, the evidence suggests it doesn't really.

Is it?

Yeah, I think it's. It's a tricky one. I'm not sure really. I'm genuinely not sure who I would vote for.

Yeah. And so what happens when all this goes on is I just think, get your head down, be an entrepreneur, be successful, make money. That's it.

Well, that's the only talked about that. One of the only things. Yeah. That I'll probably add to it is like, I do see a lot of. I quite enjoy the political chat. I find it really interesting and it is so nuanced. You can almost like forever have a conversation around it. But there does come a point where I think you kind of have to sit there and go, whoever it is that comes in, whether you're a bit more left wing, you like Keir Starmer, or you're a bit more right wing, you like Nigel Farage, whatever. They might do a few things that help you here and help you there, but generally it's up to you, big man. So focus on number one. Get you get your own stuff going.

Yeah.

And this person might fuck you a bit or that person might fuck you a bit. But Sailor V, baby, that is. That is life. If you can get it, you know, create your. Create your own luck and roll with that. Then all that stuff becomes a little bit less.

Yes.

Like a little bit less. Like so intense one way or the other. Whether it's like, you know, you see Donald Trump winning the US election, they're like, he saved America. Or this person's like, he's not, you know, Nazis are in America. And it's like, oh, maybe it's not as bad either way.

Yeah, I've got. I met someone recently from Russia and he said he built a successful business and the state just took it off. And I remember, yeah.

That. See stuff like that, you're like, oh, that's mad.

Yeah. But that, that can happen in those far communist states, which is why I hate it.

Yeah.

It's why socialism, communism. But I'm still grateful if we ever got.

Do you not think, though, so say Keir Starood comes out tomorrow, like work and he's. He's like introducing all these communists, mate. We ain't allowing that to happen. Surely people ain't gonna just let that happen.

Yeah, but you can bore the frog really slow, can't you?

Yeah, yeah.

Do you go into number 10 and. Thank you, one seven leader up.

Then a thousand years later, all of a sudden, yeah, okay, no, I hear that. Yeah. I guess if you were gonna do it, then that is how you would do it, because you're not going to be able to do it quickly, are you?

No.

So I know maybe the. Should be a bit more calling things out either way.

Yeah. But Britain is still a country where you can set up a business, you've got the limited company structure, you can limit your liability. You know, people do support small. Bit small business. People support small business. I'm always shouting for people, go to the local coffee shop. If they don't take cash, go somewhere else and use cash, Support the small business. I don't just go to the big massive supermarkets.

Yeah.

And. And, and Britain are quite good at that still.

Yeah, I think, I think, like, it's, it's, it's great. I think it's great to see, like, there's nothing better. I had two lads came around my house Monday, cleaning my cars, 18 years old, set up their own business and they're like, they DM me on Instagram. I never really read my DMs, but they, I just saw, I saw that one. I thought, do you know what, boys, in you come. Yeah, like, paid them up nice. And I was like, that's. I do love seeing. Yes, do love seeing. And that was me when I was 18. I was going scrubbing people's floors, cleaning toilets, and it's like just whatever, you know, you're trying to make something work and you just, you start off. It's not glamorous, mate. You know what I mean? But you. I do like to encourage and I do like to see that in young people where they're like, you know, I'm going to go and create my own path here. And I think, you know, I'm all for policies or anything that the government can do to kind of really, you know, stagnate. Like, we'll really get that going.

Yeah.

100. 100. Yeah.

Any regrets?

Any regrets? I would, I would. I would have learned French before going to do this run. I think that would have been a wise thing for me to do.

I think I know why. Tell us why some violent nations speak French.

Yeah. Well, we went to 16 different countries and you think DRC speak a lot of French. ROC speak a lot of French. Cameroon, Benin, Togo. SPEAKS IN FRENCH and then you've got Ivory Coast, Senegal, so Guinea. There's a lot of countries that spoke French and I spoke none. So it made conversing with locals really difficult. And Then it, you know, ended with me getting in some sticky situations on a few occasions.

Like what?

Well, when I was in the Congo, I ended up getting separated from my support crew. And then they basically sent out a call for this local man they found and he sent a bunch of people on motorbikes. Then the word getting started, getting spread around. There's a white guy going pick him up on a motorbike. If you go and get him, there's probably some money in it for you, blah, blah, blah. Ended up running through this. These tiny little villages got held up by one of them. The chief was really not happy with me, but I managed to escape that situation. But then I stumbled into another situation where some blokes picked me up on a motorbike. We had a total language barrier. They were speaking Lingala mostly, but I think they probably would have spoken some French if I was able to speak French. And, yeah, they driven me, driven me on a motorbike for seven hours into this rural Congolese village.

They kidnapped you?

Yeah, well, they.

I mean, you didn't say you didn't go willingly, did you?

No, no, no.

So they kidnapped you?

Well, I didn't. I kind of. I got on the motorbike half willingly because, you know, I was thinking that they were going to take me back to my friends. And then seven hours in, you know, I was realised that was not happening. And I was in this rural village in the middle of Congo, and then I. Luckily, the second chief of the village spoke a few words of English and I managed to say to him, like, look, if we can contact my friends, they'll come, they'll bring some money, we'll swap everyone out and it'll be all right. But it took them two days to get there because it was right in the middle of this jungle, there's no roads going there and that.

So you stayed in this village on your own, speaking the language?

Yeah, I got escorted everywhere I went. It was really quite scary. Yeah, yeah. So that. Yeah, that motorbike journey really was probably the scariest few hours of my life right there. So I just had no idea what was happening. So I've been picked up on this motorbike and they've kind of. They said ami, which is friends, in French. And I was like, okay, maybe the boys have sent them and they're going to take me back. And I was like, the boys are no further than half an hour on a motorbike, max. And then after half an hour, I was like, oh, this is getting a bit sketchy. After an hour, I'm like, oh, fucking hell. Two hours, three hours, four hours. I'm like, you know, I just resigned myself to the fact that this. I must be getting kidnapped here and getting into a situation that's going to end badly.

How did you get out of it, then?

Well, you know, the only way really we got out of it is because we managed to make contact with my team. And I said to the chief, we'll bring, you know, we'll bring some money in that.

Did you pay him?

Yeah. And then, you know, we were free to go after that. We had to bribe away continuously through various different police. Police checkpoints and all kinds of things, really.

So they're basically stopping you and threatening you unless you pay.

Yeah, yeah. Shit.

You just wanted to have a run.

Yeah, I know, I know. But I think, yeah, it was a really tricky, really tricky situation and.

And French would have helped.

French would have probably helped. So, yeah, that's one of my greatest. Should learn French. Should learn French, definitely. And I think if I ever do a pole to pole, I'll be learning Spanish.

Yeah. And did you share any of these secret stories in the book?

Yes, they're all in the book. Yeah. Talk about all of these things.

Shout out the book again.

Yeah. So it's hardest geezer mind over miles. Get it? Anyway, you get your books. I did the audiobook as well. So you can. I think you can even listen to it for free on Spotify.

They'll be giving it away for free.

Well, boys and girls, it's free on Spotify. There we go.

Your publisher's gonna fire. All right.

If you've got Spotify premium, though, I think. Yeah, that's what it is.

Okay.

Right, yeah.

So final question. This show is called Disruptors. First off, thanks for letting us come to your home.

No worries. Thanks for coming.

It's been a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Yeah. The show is called Disruptors. What does disruptive. What does the word mean to you?

Disruptive? I think it's about doing things in a different way. No, it's. It's about looking about what's out there and going, hold on a minute. I can do that better or I can do this different and going out there and making your mark on the world. That's what disruptive means to me. Bosh. Yeah. Come on.

Bosh. Russ, this has been great. Thank you.

No worries. Thanks for having me, mate. This episode was brought to you by.

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