A strategy problem is often a chemistry problem in disguise | Mark Engel | In Full Light 011

So welcome to In Full Light. This is our Substack Live series where we really just celebrate the heart-led practitioners inside our community who are stepping into their power and sharing their gifts with the world. And today we are joined by Mark Engel. He is the founder of The Third Space, where he is helping founders and creative leaders scale their team chemistry. So welcome, Mark. It's great to have you here with us.

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for having me, uh, having me here. Yeah, it's, it's Absolutely nice to be here with you. Super pleasure to end my day here in Bangkok with this call.

Yeah, we're on, uh, yeah, we're on totally different, uh, different sides of the world. So yeah, thank you, thank you for making the time. Um, so yeah, really just to kind of, um, kick things off, uh, we'd love just to kind of hear from your words who you are, uh, what you do, and I think most importantly why you do it. You know, for most people in our community, and I include you in this, there's somewhat of a deeper calling behind the work. And I would love to hear you share that with us here today.

Absolutely. Happy to do. Yeah, you named it already. So my name is Marc Engel. I'm originally from Switzerland, now based in Bangkok. I founded what I call The Third Space, which is really about helping founders and creative leaders find that sweet spot between, let's say, performance and relationships. Most of the people I work with, they have a very clear preference for either. Actually, most of them are very performance-oriented. They're ambitious, they're driven, they're amazing in what they do. And so that preference brings them very, very far in their business development and where they go. And then sometimes they get to a certain point where leaning into the other pole, so to say, opens up kind of the next level of growth or kind of just the next level where they can develop into.. And so my goal is really to bring these two worlds together because both are needed in order to be successful sustainably. And so that's what I do. Yeah, you asked me about the why behind all of that, like the drive. And, you know, it was actually, I think I can maybe best answer that with a short story because it just happened two weeks ago when I was with a leadership team in China. And it was a company about 170 people scaling. It was the first time the leadership team did a workshop. And at the end of the workshop, I sometimes, especially with teams, I play a little game. And that game is called the Appreciation Game. And it is incredibly simple because basically what you do is you get up, you find a partner, and then you share something that you appreciate about that other person, right? And it's almost like a speed dating round, but rather than speed dating, it's appreciation sharing. And so you do that for a couple of minutes. So it's crazily simple, and yet it is that moment that stays with most of the participants for quite some time. In fact, directly when we debriefed it at the end of the workshop, one of the participants, she was, she was so moved by that. She was actually in tears and she said, you know, in, especially in Chinese culture, and I find it true for European culture as well, but especially in Chinese culture, she said, this is not what we're used to doing, to actually stand up and look each other in the eyes and recognize each other. And yet we spend 8 to 12 hours of our days in a business environment together with those people. And what we just did here felt so meaningful. And she said, I could feel the chemistry that kind of emerged through it. This is what I want more of. And so she really, she spoke directly out of my heart, right, in that sense. And that's, I think, the driving why, like, to make— it's so beautiful to witness if people realize something that really matters and it moves them, right? That's just fantastic. And not only is it beautiful to witness, it's of course like a connection and a bond that is formed there between the people that can really carry them forward. So I think that's at least part of my deeper why there.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And like we can feel, right? Like the, and I love the way you put it, the exercise, like it's such a simple thing. And often we forget the simple things and the simple ones are often too the most important ones. And I think we spoke a little bit about already as you're sharing this story, but can you share a little more like the transformation, either like a team or a person that they undergo when they work with you? Like the, can you paint the picture like the before and after the work with you?

Sure. Well, if I bottom line that, if I try to bring that into one line, I would probably put it like this. It's like, stop carrying the system and start to catalyze it. And what I mean by that is what I just like mentioned before is like all of those founders, co-founders, some of the leaders who are so good at what they do, they kind of end up carrying a lot, right? So all of the decisions run through them. Sometimes they carry the emotions, the relationships, and there's at one point a limit to that, right, in some sense. And so it's kind of a shift towards not knowing that you don't have to carry do it all yourself, but that you can actually kind of ignite something in what I call kind of this invisible web between people and allow the system to take and to carry more for you, so to say. And usually the transformation— so that's the general theme, but the transformation happens on 3 levels. First of all, that's on the level of the individual leader, and most of that is connected to increasing their capacity, the capacity to be with more. That could be more discomfort, that could be tougher negotiations, that could be with more uncertainty, with more complexity, right? It's not that the pressure decreases, usually it increases, but it's almost like that the person becomes bigger, like you're ready to hold more, to be with more. So that's on the level of the individual. On the level of the team, it shows up a bit differently because usually it's like I see teams suddenly having the conversations that they had been avoiding., right? And it sounds so simple, but when I witnessed this in the workshops, it's actually the most beautiful moments because everything I just, I have to do is basically to lean back and just hold the space for them to have finally the things that matter, right? To have those conversations they tap into. It's so cool. But so with that, the perspectives, they don't become like a source for tension. They become an asset, like different perspective, different opinions, different truths. And based on that, teams start to co-create way differently, right? So things start to unblock and you're able suddenly to move forward. So that happens on the level of the team. And then when we talk about the level of the organization, I would say that in general, leadership becomes more distributed, right? So not everything kind of needs to go through the top, but it becomes more distributed. Culture becomes more intentional and not accidental. So you actually create a container that can hold something, like almost like a performance container that can move you forward if you know how to really and so kind of to bring that together, it's almost like I want to help those founders and those teams increase like the capacity to grow, not only, not just in performance, but also in how they handle pressure, relationships, and leadership. Because once you have, once you increase that capacity, I believe the results they will follow.

Yeah. The way I would put that into my own words, and I would love to hear, uh, from you if it resonates, is like you're helping them to move from the doing to the being. So the doing starts like being executed from a different space. Um, does it make sense? Like, does it resonate? Like they almost like helping us to go back to our essence. And it's like, it's okay to be just me here. And then it's okay to have the relationship and it's okay to disagree. And in that space, I will create the capacity the way you were sharing. Does that resonate with you? At least that was the way I understood your explanation. And I thought it was beautiful.

Yeah, for absolutely. I mean, the being and the doing, the performance and the relationships, these are all kind of these pairs that go together, right? And normally we kind of lean into one more naturally. And eventually it's not even about balance, but about integration almost on a higher level, because you need both, right, in order to move forward successfully. And so absolutely, like the being and the doing, this is how it was introduced to me when I started my journey like years back. And it kind of just got into a slightly different frame for a different context. But it is definitely about this, this Yeah, this interplay, this sweet spot between those two fundamental forces.

Yeah. And I'm curious, Mark, like, you know, I've had the, I've had the benefit of being in an organization that I felt had leadership that embodies some of the sorts of principles you're describing. But it seems to me that it does take a certain type of leader or a certain type of awareness at the leadership level to even enter into these types of conversations or to create the space for this. And so I'm just curious what you see around that. And also kind of like for the companies that you've gone into, or maybe you could use the China example or another one, kind of what are the situations that— or the symptoms, I guess, the things that start to present themselves that might make someone raise their hand and say, oh, you know what, this might be the opportunity to kind of look at these sorts of things with my team. Like what do you see typically shows up that kind of precedes kind of a leader having the vision to even work with someone like yourself or open up the space for these types of conversations?

Right. It's a great question because there's different entry points almost. Like some of the situations I run into, the symptom shows up on different levels, on a different level. Usually, it could be either on a strategy level or a process level where someone just is not able to move forward. I did work with a team at the beginning of this year where the leader approached me and she said, We've been having conversations about the processes for over a year. We've had workshops, facilitators. We cannot, like, nothing moved. I want another workshop. Can you please come in and talk about processes? So I was like, well, maybe let's try something different first because I know you want to resolve that, but let's start at a different point just to see what could potentially emerge. And I was only able to go there for half a day. So they had a full day. So basically our deal was that I was like, okay, you know what, let's work on something else in the morning and then let's see where you get in the afternoon. And on the following day, we'll debrief and you let me know. And so we started that day, and of course, we didn't talk about process at all, like not at all. But we worked on the connection, right, the connection between them, about opening up a little, sharing challenges, allowing perspectives to surface, and things like that. And funnily enough, the next day, I was like, and so I was curious myself, but I was like, so what happened? And then she said, well, you know what? Within 2 hours in the afternoon, we were able to resolve that issue. And I found that like amazing, right? It's almost like sometimes it's the simple things on that relational layer that kind of stand in the way. Someone not feeling heard, something not being acknowledged, me not being able to speak my opinion. And so something gets stuck and then it shows up. And so it can show up in processes, as I just said, like in strategy. I sometimes like to say many things that show up as a strategy problem are a chemistry problem in disguise, right? Because just look a level deeper and then not all of them, but many of them are actually, you find a lot of stuff going on like a level deeper there. So that's one thing. The other thing, when it's more about maybe on the entrepreneurial side where people are really scaling up, there it shows up a little bit differently. There it's like that the founders, at least that I know, they were really successful, they scaled to maybe 80 people, 100 people, and then they're realizing it's like, hey, something something is not working the same way as before anymore. The leaders that I promoted, they're high achievers, but they cannot lead. They don't know how to lead on the relational side of things. They don't live up to my brand if I'm not in the room and things like that, right? And so then you realize it's like, oh, everything has been living in you and it was from you, it kind of, you brought that into the space with your presence once you're there. But when you're not longer there or when you cannot be anywhere anymore, then something else is needed. So it's it's that you're stuck either on that operational level or you're kind of hitting a growth barrier or some barrier that you cannot, that I don't know, you just cannot get over. And so that's a good starting point is like if you have something like that, just check and see if there's something else going on a level deeper there.

Yeah, somebody, Zach, just posted a comment that, yeah, it's great what you're sharing. Any strategy is often a chemistry problem. So good. And I agree with everything that you're sharing. And just going a little deeper on that, like, it makes me think the way you're describing it, and you tell me, uh, if it's true, uh, with the people that you work with, that the problem is never the problem, right? Like, they perceive something like this lady that the, the, the, the leader that was like, yes, like, I have a process problem, and they keep like trying to solve the problem that they perceive as the thing. And then at the end of the day, like, if you were to talk, like, let's talk about relationships, maybe they're like, no, because we have a process problem. But then how, you know, like, how do we, and connected to Phil's question, but how do we translate to people that, you know, they are so clear about their problem and they believe they know what the solution is. So they're going to hire someone to fix the process. And then at the end of the day, something that's like, way deeper than that. So what is that conversation to help people to understand that whatever they perceive as a problem is actually not the problem?

Well, once you're in the conversation, I think you have a huge advantage, right? Because this is where basically, I mean, that's what happened in every classic coaching conversation, right? You come into a coaching conversation, you want to maybe solve a challenge, and the coach kind of just brings you 2, 3 levels deeper, and then you realize like, oh, oh, that's the thing that that actually is my problem, right? So once you're in a, or once you are in a conversation and you're curious about the situation, then you start to kind of like unwrap that onion in some ways, right? To see, okay, so what's actually going on underneath that? So it's really a curiosity mindset. And in some of the workshops that we do where we have participants do that, there's this like this simple technique that all of us know, right? That we usually also apply to business problems, these 5 Whys, right? 5 Whys. Okay, so just ask why. It's so simple. But they start with the symptom level and only with applying that to themselves. That's already a great starting point to realize, ah, there might be actually a couple of other things that could be happening that if I solve that, it will kind of resolve everything that are a couple of layers up. So it's really that. It's a curiosity to explore and to just to be willing to see what emerges. Because, you know, in all fairness, of course, I love to say that because it's what I see. At some, in some moments, the symptom is the problem, right? So the curiosity helps you to actually pinpoint what is actually happening. So I wouldn't go, want to go into a situation where we don't explore the actual context of the person. But usually there's something much deeper, like to identify. Yeah, you know, you know that as well, I guess, you know, that's right. Like working in the field, you too.

Yeah, like I feel that it's, uh, I never really thought about like organizations, but you're bringing and it feels it's just another layer of the same thing because that's exactly what you said. Like when we have like people coming to us to like look for to grow their business or a lot of people like, oh, I want to like grow my Substack or my Substack is not growing, but there's like many, many layers that the problem is not the problem, you know, like growing the business here or growing the Substack here. Like this is not the problem. There's like many other layers that often people don't want to look at, um, you know, or they avoid. And once they are actually ready to like, hey, I'm ready to do the work and I'm ready to connect with my light or to take myself to the next level, then unlocking those different layers, um, unlock the surface problem. Like then that thing is no longer the problem and, you know, things start moving. So it's just interesting that in a small, we work with individuals, like a person here, and then we're talking about organizations and it's exactly the same thing, right? Like just in a bigger context in a way.

For sure. Yeah, absolutely. And it is actually, I find it always like still even after 5 and a half years, I still find it amazing how many issues get resolved once you resolve something like that is internal to you. Like those inner barriers, if you get them out of the way, it's so amazing. Like, Yeah, I'm still surprised always. Like, you come with that, oh, this happens in my environment, or my boss XYZ, and then we look at it, it's like, oh, well, there might be some of that. And if you resolve this, how do you show up in those situations? And then something completely different emerges. It's fascinating. And not only that, I'm not talking about others here. I'm like, for me too, right? I'm not taking myself out of that equation for sure.

Including us.

Yeah.

High fives to any barriers.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that was effectively, that was effectively the whole origin of this business was when, you know, I'd been doing the kind of more traditional marketing consulting coaching for years and I started to notice how I would get into conversations where I felt that the individual had everything that, you know, from my external viewpoint, I was like, wow, they've got all the resources, they've got the finances, they've got the time. They've got, you know, the right strategy, you know, everything is in place for them to succeed. And we're showing up and kind of having the same conversations over and over again. And so saying, okay, like, what's underneath that? And it's exactly as you said. And that's, you know, one of the— yeah, one of the moments that I— that really dawned on me was I, you know, I had a client that was paying me good money, like, you know, more 5-figures investment. And then I know he was also working with a coach probably not too, too different than the type of work that you do. And we had never talked and it was just, it was like, wow, what a missed opportunity. You know, it's like over here we're looking at things from one perspective and over here we're looking at it from another and we're not talking. Right. And so that's really our work is really kind of mapping kind of that intersection between kind of the external and, you know, the inner landscape. And so, yeah, in many ways I feel like we're doing the same work. It's just you're scaling that in organizations. And I feel like also the stakes, you know, they become amplified, right? Because oftentimes I would imagine that the leader that's standing in the middle of that organization, if they're not doing this work themselves, then it's really hard to kind of move that out into the organization. Would you say most of the leaders you work with have already kind of been on a journey of that inner work themselves before they engage with you? Or are you kind of more often than not part of that process as well? What does that usually look like in terms of where you tend to start engagements with folks?

Yeah, that's a great question. Actually, like thinking back of like talking about the creative leaders and the founders that I work with, in those particular cases, it usually has been like a starting point for them, for most of them that they, yeah, that's really a starting point for their personal growth journey in many cases where they come, like some of them, for example, came out like super energy depleted. Like, so if the pressure is too high and your capacity is too small, that pressure eats you. And so that has an impact. And then we work on their mental fitness. And mental fitness, I like personally the term mental fitness because for a person who has never done any of that work, you want to choose a frame that invites them in. And for those high performers, if you talk about fitness, they're like, yeah, of course, like I go to the gym, right? Fitness is great. And so you start on your mental fitness, which is also great. And then step by step, they're like, oh, okay, this is what it means. And then they start to explore more and more. And it's so beautiful. And I've been working with one founder, for example, for 2.5 years, and now he inspires me in every session. He comes with so much content. I'm like, oh, wow, where do you pick that? Like, he's on his journey for such a long time. It's really inspiring. But yeah, so like, long story to your question, mostly it's the start for many of them, not only individually, also as a team. Like 2 weeks ago in China, workshop. For that team, that was the first workshop they ever had as a team. And for most people, also the first kind of leadership, I don't know, team workshop that they ever went through. Yeah, so it's like some of them, they tell me, you know what, we're just, we're actually just winging it. We're winging it for quite a long time. And it's amazing how far you can get with winging it. Like, and then at one point, you reach a limit, and then it's a good point to kind of start to look what might be in there for you if you open up a little bit. Um, but yeah, so usually a starting point.

That's very nice. It seems that you open a very beautiful door for them and I hope they get very excited, like just seeing that there's a whole new path, um, in that direction. So that's, that's really cool. And, uh, just shifting a little bit, like in your career and building your path, like, was there a moment that you decided that like, I'm going to go full in, in this, um, you know, like the third space or like helping teams and leaders with the chemistry and their relationship. Was there like a turning point in your career that you decided that like, this is what I'm here to do and I'm gonna go full in? Or how was your, your story of like choosing how you serve people? Yeah.

Well, there was a particular moment where I think my whole attitude to maybe even life and to what I want to do changed. I was like, in my past work, I was like, I was leading a team, we were managing, like I was asset management, so kind of a financial economics background. It was a good career. It was very good people. It was really nice. And then I basically went through a breakup of a personal relationship that kind of hit me. And it was, I remember the day quite like as if it were yesterday when I was sitting in front of my, like it was those Bloomberg terminals, you know, with those financial charts and things like that. And I was looking at it and I was like, Wow, I couldn't care less. And I was like, that feels so empty, that feels so meaningless in that moment. Like almost like the pain being a mirror for like a very clear judge of, okay, what is it worth paying attention to and what not that much? And so that was the beginning of the opening to then saying, well, how can it be? Actually, like that leader 2 weeks ago said, like, how can it be that I spent 8 to 12 hours a day doing this and it not filling me up in the way maybe it's supposed to. And so that was the starting point for my self-discovery, thinking about, okay, so actually, who do you want to be? What do you really want to do here? And from there, I went into coaching, like, I found my way to coaching and then very quickly to leadership development. And then finally, last year, also together with you two, right, where we kind of brought my experience into this new frame of the third space and the chemistry. So then it was like the past 5 years being on this path. It was a path of discovery, of experimenting, of seeing, and of also realizing, it's like, oh, when do people call me in? Like, when is it? What does it resonate for them that they actually want me or want to work with me in that particular moment? And it's like one creative, like one studio manager, she put it nicely at the very— it was a couple of years ago. She said, you know, you're kind of a corporate with heart. What she meant by that is like, you bring in kind of the structure from the corporate background that we can need, but you're like, you're heart-based. Like, so you have this, like the emotional intelligence or like we connect very easily. And I really loved how she put that back then. It's like, oh yeah, that's kind of a nice combination. And so from there, I realized, oh, it's a lot of that relate, like all of that, everything that is invisible, that relational architecture that has a lot of potential to bring teams or businesses forward. It was almost like it was founding me more than I was finding it, right, in the past couple of years. But the original point was that realization of lack of meaning in the workplace.

It's fascinating how so many people we talk to, and it's my own personal journey too, it's through kind of these like moments of temporary crisis that kind of lead us down the paths. You know, for me, it wasn't a relationship, it was a health thing. But I have, It's so funny how you said like, oh, I can remember exactly where I was sitting looking at that terminal because I have the same memory kind of baked into my mind of where I was sitting and it was snowing. It's winter and I had been ill and looking at what I was doing and being like, why? Like, what am I doing here? And you know, what do I truly want? And then this question, what do I truly want, is a dangerous question in the best of ways, right? Because once you kind of start to open that box, there's almost no going back. And so Yeah. So thank you for sharing all of that. And, you know, just kind of to— yeah, just to continue down that thread a little bit. And it could be taking us back to that time or it could be more recent times as you've continued to evolve your business. Is there anything that you would say used to kind of believe about yourself or maybe even like business at a higher level that maybe you've had to let go of to get to where you find yourself today with what you've created?

Yeah, I definitely had to let go of a couple of things. What's the major theme? I think in many ways, I think it's like a very general thing about a need for security that had to go out of the window. And that's a security on many different levels. Like when I think about growing up in Switzerland, you know, like everything, like, safe, you're taken care of, there's structure, things work. If you follow a classic path and you're well-educated, usually things turn out relatively well for you, you know, like all of that thing. So everything is almost kind of set up for you in quotations. And with that comes a security on many levels, like a financial security that you long for at one point, a security of Yeah, what happens if you don't follow that classic path? Like also, like, oh, what happens when you switch career into something that, yeah, worked in leadership but not in coaching and things like that? So what happens if I have to let go of many of the things that I built up over a long time, like with university and things like that? So that was for sure one thing that had to fly out of the window. And that was not always an easy path. Path, right? When you, I mean, the first one when you switch from being employed to being self-employed and the regular income doesn't come in, okay, that's something I kind of could deal with. And then you build your thing up and then it starts to work. And then I think in my third year, a huge client broke away within two weeks and I was like, oh my God, and as my expectations went up and then I was again kind of confronted with a little bit of that fear. But then that fear opened up other things, for example, moving to Bangkok. But then of course, you're like, oh, everything is starting to change. So how do you deal with that? So I think that need for security needed to go out. And it was also interesting to notice how much of that on some level is an illusion. And so on some level, it's like, actually, you don't need that much of it. You do need in some areas, and you do need from time to time, but in my experience, way less than you might think, at least speaking for myself.

Yeah, I so resonate with that. And, and I would say that for myself is very similar. I think the sense of safety, the, the letting go that, but the way I see it, like I had my sense of safety so much attached to external things. So like the career, like the promises of like the safety, the place that I am, like having my apartment or like all of the things that like like makes you believe that you are safe. And then when you choose a different path that like, now I don't have a job that, you know, that I'll be here that I see myself for 40 years. Now I don't have my house that I used to have. Now I don't, I'm not living in the same country that I used to live the way, you know, like moving to a new country and all of that. Um, it's, and then choosing to be an entrepreneur or a business owner. And it's almost an invitation, at least for myself, to transfer that sense of safety from outside to inside. And it's a complete different way to relating to life. It's, I believe now after like years doing that, that I have the capacity to reinvent myself. So my, you know, I don't depend on an employer. I don't depend on having this or having that or like, but I know I can rebuild myself from anywhere I am. And it's just, it's not an easy journey, but it's so fulfilling. Um, you know, so I was just relating to my own story and I connect a lot with the sense of safety. And I think, I don't know, maybe some people like they want to go into the path of like, I want to build my business or I want to help people in a different way. But if the sense of safety is so much attached to something outside of them, that's what makes hard to kind of like, I'm gonna, you know, not follow the path that it's everybody in Switzerland follows that I know for sure I'm gonna get somewhere and I'm gonna choose my own path. And then out of fear, like you could like stay in that path and not feeling completely fulfilled. So it is an act of courage in many ways.

In many ways. Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think you put that beautifully. It's absolutely that shift, right? Towards like, from the external safety that we look for in so many different ways. Could be, as you said, like your apartments or your achievements or the next bigger whatever thing it is, right? Or other people confirm, like confirming what you do, or like in the sense of looking in the approval from others or wherever it is. There is almost like a development stage that we are in where we're looking for that and where we're conditioned to look for that because it's natural, right? In many ways to look for safety and to do these kind of things. But to break out of that is is almost like a shift, as you say, like that shift from external to internal. And it's exactly like, almost like going through this development stage, right? And sometimes falling back, I think, talking from own experience. But you're right. Yeah, it is. In some ways, it is a courageous act for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I've always found it fascinating. It just made me think, like, I've always I've just kind of been puzzled by this idea and it's so ingrained in us, like in the system that, you know, when you start your job or you start working, you start to then invest, you know, for your retirement and save for retirement and all these things. And, and so people kind of have this idea, like, of course I should, you know, they either are doing that or they, they think, of course I should be doing that right at some point. Uh, but then when we turn it back on ourselves and we say, oh, like, well, am I willing to invest in myself? Like, this is almost this like absurd idea. It's like, oh, well, what do you mean? And I just, I've always found this very puzzling. Like, to me, it makes perfect sense. And it's one of the things that I think has helped me over time is that I've always— I've never had that struggle. I've always been willing. Like, if there was something I wanted to learn or a new skill or a new capacity, I'm like, well, yeah, I'm going to— I guess I built up over time the trust in myself that I could act upon that. Right. And so I'd be like, of course I'm going to do that. And, you know, this is something that I would love to, yeah. To encourage people to think more in that way of like, what would it look like to, yeah, to do that, you know? And so, yeah, thanks for sharing your story because I think the more people see embodiment of that and see, you know, hear stories of someone like yourself sharing like, yeah, you know, there's nothing different about you. You've had to go through that same journey of shedding some of these illusions and reexamining your relationship with security and all this. And this is, this is part of the journey, right?

Yeah, yeah, there's these moments, right, where it becomes very, very, um, where, where's these, yeah, the small courageous, well, smaller, sometimes bigger courageous acts, this leap of faith that you take and you move into that. And in my experience, sometimes it's also, sometimes it's also less, uh, risky than it thinks, because once you align yourself with your truth in many ways and like, oh, this is really what I want, it's almost like that's the only path you can walk. And then you just walk it. And not everything then feels as risky as it maybe sometimes should, or I don't know, but you just go. It feels like, oh, it's just aligned with my next step. So that seems to be the next thing. And there's a flow almost coming into that. It's quite fascinating in the, like, looking back. And not all is flow, at least not for me. It's just like falling off the flow from time to time for sure. But it's fascinating to see what it means, like, if you're aligned with with what is really true for you and then just to walk on that path and to just start discover as you walk.

Yeah, that's, you put it in such a beautiful way because it's true, right? Like when the sense of safety is out there, then if somebody does something to you, like let's say you get fired or something like, then it's almost feels that you don't have a choice or like you're clinging on to something, but then And the way you were sharing, like, oh, now I shifted that and then it depends on me only. So then there's no risk. It doesn't mean that you won't face challenges, but your sense of confidence that you like, you can just walk the path, like shifts completely. And I love the way you said that, like, it's less risky, even though for the mind is like more challenging, but yeah, very good. Um, another question for you, like in this, you know, sharing, uh, and choosing your path, like, have you ever struggled with visibility? Visibility, like being seen? Was there ever part of your story? And if not, that's completely fine. But if it was, like, what has shifted for you?

Yeah, no, I've always loved to be in the spotlight. No issue for me at all whatsoever. A big, big, like a big thing from the smallest interaction to even like today, like I'm on that path myself still. Like, where to even start? I, like, when I think back of my first coach training, like, so my first coach training, there was an exercise that we did that I still do today in some of the workshops because it really impacted me. It was one of the most impactful exercises for me. And you were, what you're basically doing is you go around the room and people suggest like a quality or an energy that they feel like would really serve you to amp up more, right? To embody more. They would like, okay, so you suggest something You're like, you have a little bit of that, and if you really lean into that, that would really serve how you show up as a human being, as a leader, and so on. And so you go through the room, and then one of my colleagues there in the training, she gave me the personality of Tarzan. You know Tarzan, like that monkey, that monkey-like guy? Yeah, exactly, exactly like that, right? And so my inner reaction was twofold. On the one hand, I was going like, oh shit, shit. Oh no, you cannot be serious now, because I associated with loud and, you know, like that kind of thing. So one side of me was going, no, please. And then another side of me was going loud, like, oh yeah, that would exactly like serve me. You hit that sweet spot, right, of the fear and kind of the possibility. And so I took it, and then there's an exercise where you kind of start to embody it, you start to play with it. And so I did, which was terrible at the beginning. But then in the debrief—

I'm so curious what Tarzan Marc looks like.

Sorry to interrupt. Yeah, yeah.

I just was putting this visual of like, I wonder what that looks like.

Yeah, it's just loud and jumping around and like something like that. So very alive. But in the debrief, it was funny because like from, like in the previous 2 days of the workshop, I was of course contributing, but in that debrief, I was the first to speak up. I interrupted people. I was just going in. And then one of the facilitators, she said, "Oh, Marc, hey, there you are," right? "Hey, there you are." Suddenly I was there. And I think that was the first moment of what it meant for me. For me, that was the first moment I had to overcome, to just dare to be seen in that space. That was actually quite a safe space. And from there, it continued. I mean, then you go into, you become a facilitator yourself. And when you talk about, not about skills, but about the human side of things and the capacity side of things, you gotta open up and you gotta open up about your own shortcomings than your own failures. And ah, that was a big, big thing for me at the beginning. And I was very lucky having been surrounded by mentors and by other facilitators who walked that path before me and could just really role model that beautifully and almost like show me how impactful it is for others, but also how actually safe it is in many ways. And so I was lucky to be in that environment. And from there, it started to open more and more. And now, of course, yeah, when you go out, right, with your framework on Substack or other things, that's the next level of, oh, Oh, okay, more people see it, more people could criticize you, more people could disagree with you. What does it do for you? And things like that. So long story, but yes, definitely has been and still is a path for me.

Thank you, Professor Darien.

Yeah, I think it's probably more rare, and I know there are people like that, you know, the loud extroverts and, you know, people that have no problem putting themselves out there. But I think it's more common than not that that we struggle with these things. And then it's just, it's that choice, you know, to lean in and, and, um, try, try a different way. But, um, yeah, kind of going back to, yeah, to the work that you're doing, um, you know, I kind of said I, I feel that where we are right now on this planet and with corporations, there's probably more— there's probably no shortage of, of organizations that would truly benefit from from the work that you do and, you know, with the Third Space and creating team chemistry. And so for anyone that might be hearing this, that's a leader or might watch the replay later, like, what is something that maybe you wish more people understood about the work you do? Maybe something that you think often might get misunderstood or overlooked in a broader conversation?

I mean, one thing that we touched upon already, right, is how how the symptom is something else when you dig a little bit deeper. I think that's something I wish they understood, that if they just allowed themselves to go to, to lean into the relational side, I cannot even pronounce the word, the relational side of things, that's what I mean. If they allowed themselves to go there more, I would say more intentionally and more consciously, that would really unlock something because it's not, you know, like the people I work with, they're not relationship-oriented. They're actually quite like, they're great people and they get along with other people really, really well. And even for those who are quite relationship-oriented, I feel it, I'm, well, not surprised, but it's fascinating to see how little they know about what it means to install, let's say, the container that can hold and can maximize the potential that can come out of it, right? So things that you can easily measure and set up, like the processes, the strategies, that's of course an easier one to go to because you can kind of feel it or see it. And the other one is more invisible and you can maybe more sense it. And of course, there's maybe some diagnostics or measurements in some sense, but eventually, it's really, there's a different quality to that. And that's almost a muscle that you can train. And so it's so often the highest leverage point that for me, like if I had at one point, like a huge company, I think I would just send them into coach training to begin with, just so they really get like this specific skill set on how to engage on that side, because that is, yeah, that is such a huge leverage point.

Yeah, and I love that you use this word diagnostic because, you know, you're probably challenged in some similar ways we are that, you know, when we're speaking to the invisible, it can be hard to get your hands around, right? You can't touch it and feel it the way, you can't see it the way, you know, according results shows up for a company, for example. But, you know, because you mentioned the word diagnostic, I know you've created two different tools that actually help bring language to this in a way that leaders can measure and can relate to this. And so maybe if you could share a little bit about that work that you've been doing. Sure, sure.

Yeah, so I've started with a diagnostic that I called the Team Chemistry Map, which really kind of like shows you the 9 dimensions of team chemistry, right? So that's a simple diagnostic.

It's free.

It's about 36 questions. So it lasts a little bit longer, like 5 minutes, but it gives you a pretty, I would say, pretty decent picture of where you might fall short and where you're strong. And so based on this combination, what your development path could look like, even without any external support, like you look at it and see what could be leveraged. Where you just leave potential on the table, so to say. So that's the first assessment I created because I just, I love working in like this team context, right, in this relationship context. And then just lately, also based on our conversations, right, I developed like an assessment that is a bit more focused on the individual leader so that the leader gets a bit of an idea of what they could pay attention to when it comes to specifically installing building, let's say, chemistry infrastructure in their organizations. And there, it's not 9 dimensions, but it's 3 games, 3 games that they can check on how well they play these 3 games. And I call them the inner game, the relational game, and the cultural game, right? So the inner game is the capacity thing that we now talked about, the relation as well as kind of the performance and relationship game like that, yeah, the activating that invisible And the culture game is more about the infrastructure, like how, what do you need to, or what can you put into place that allows you to scale that side of things as you scale the business up, right? So that kind of both move in tandem and reinforce each other positively. And so that's a simple one, also free, 2 minutes, only 9 questions, and the starting point for you as an individual leader if you're curious about that. Yeah.

Beautiful.

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And just curious, the games you mentioned, is there one that tends to be, from your experience, and I know that's a more relatively new tool, but is there one that tends to be more tricky or more out of balance for more people than not? Or have you found this kind of more evenly distributed in terms of where people find they struggle the most?

Like when you look at it individually, like the individual components of what makes up the game, so to say, there are different it's for sure. Like, I would say in general, capacity is something that is still out there that people invest only in once they, like, feel the pain of something being too much, and then they realize, oh, I need to update something in my operating system, so to say, for it to work out better. So that's just something there that doesn't come as easily, or even if they have parts of it, like the knowledge and the application of that, like the knowledge and the bodily muscle, there's also a difference. I think even you, didn't you just recently send an article between the difference of knowing and doing or something like that? I think there was just like yesterday or today, right, coming out. I was like, yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. You can know about your values, but if you don't live up to them, you can know about your purpose, but if it doesn't inform your decisions, that's, you don't activate something there. So that's on that game. The culture game is also usually one that scores a little bit lower just because a couple of these practices that are very specific people are not used to installing them in that way, right? So there's usually a practice where you're like, or when it's just about personal connections, you go, I don't know, to the gym together or like some social activity. That's usually like most of them have that. But when you talk about onboarding experiences or like development sessions or some like peer-to-peer coaching sessions that are like a systematic ritual or rhythm for people to tap into, that's something people are not used used to. Yeah, that's a bit of a new world. Yeah. It's like not a complicated world, just a new world. It's not, yeah, not particularly complicated.

It's different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just different.

Yeah. And I would imagine that even when a leader decides that, you know, the moment is right and that they want to install some of these things into the business, it's just like anything else, right? It's new. You could feel like a little bit of a toddler or maybe, you know, you're concerned about how you're going to be, how you're representing yourself. So I'm sure that's a big part of your work too, is helping to not only teach these processes, but do you kind of support the leaders in the actual implementation and like kind of seeing the, you know, the rollout and, you know, measuring, you know, where people get stuck or the effectiveness of those things? Is that part of your work as well?

Yeah, for sure. It depends on the level of engagement, right? For some people, they're like, they do a coaching, they kind of, they want to try it themselves, so they do it. Some, like, that's a one-on-one. Some bring me in on the leadership team level, then you do it with the team and they implement it. And some are like, hey, like, we would like you to kind of help us do this almost like as, you know, full onboarding in some sense. So you come in from the outside and really help them on all the levels to install these practices and to develop their people to live up to those practices. And so there's two paths, like you need to know enough about them, but you also need to have the people ready to step into those kind of practices.

Yeah, thanks. And remind me, you've been doing this work, how did you say, 5, 5 and a half years? Is that how long you—

Yeah.

Yeah, so like in that time, what would you say you're most proud of for yourself? You know, and it could be in results in your business, but I love to orient around, and I think you'll appreciate this, just kind of who you're becoming through the process and who you've become over the last 5 and a half years. What would you say to that? What would you say you're most proud of for yourself as you've walked this path?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. Like, when the word proud comes up, my feeling goes actually, the first thing goes towards gratitude in many ways, like gratitude for life in many ways of what I was able to do, the privilege that I had, gratitude for for parents, friends, partners, for mentors who just appeared on the way unannounced. So it's a lot of gratitude in many ways on that path. I mean, when I look back like 15 years, like my, I think my 25-year-old would not have believed what I would be doing right now in many ways. Like that you're a business owner, you're self-employed, you work at the other side of the world, something that you like, right? You have like a partner on the other side of the world. So you're doing something that is super meaningful for you, it's very fulfilling and fills you up. I would be like, no way, no, no, no, no, that, that, that not in my mindset back then. It's like, you follow your path, like your structured kind of thingy, and you fit into the boxes. And so just for that, I think just for that, going on that path and trying, you know, trying, experimenting and seeing what might be on that. I think like, if, yeah, if I use the word proud, I think part of that, yes, absolutely. Just for trying to seeing what might emerge. I mean, there's one, oh, what do I know the quote? There's this one quote that still, I still love it. It came at the very beginning of my journey, and I'm not even sure who it is attributed to, but it's really about, you know, it goes something like this, like in 20 years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the things that you did do, right? Kind of throw off the boat lines, like, and catch and then go on that ship, like, leave the safe harbor and catch the trade winds in your sails, like, dream, dare, discover, something along those lines. And just love that. Like, yeah, go on the adventure of your life in many ways, be it with a business or whatever. But so just for doing that, at least for a while, I'm very grateful for being able to do that. Yeah, beautiful.

Yeah.

And if anyone knows the quote, we're gonna have to look up this quote before we, uh, before we publish the recap. Yeah, I didn't get it right.

I didn't cite it.

I could think of a few that are similar, but yeah, the theme for sure is something that I've, I've lived, attempted to live my life by as, as best I can as well. And so it's just beautiful. And, um, yeah, like where you are now, 5 and a half years in, in, you're— I mean, I feel like you're still building momentum. And so when you think about the vision that you're building towards, like, where is this all going? Where would— what would you love to be doing more of? Like, what would, you know, where do you see yourself leaning in and, you know, wanting to, you know, express even more of, of this work with the folks you support?

So, I mean, the, the, the bigger, bigger, like, super big reason like that that is just like a possibility out there in the realm right now that is like not even connected. Well, it is connected, but I have no clue how to get there at this stage. But it's, I think it's on some level, it's kind of an expression of what is happening here in the microcosmos in Bangkok for me. It's like, I feel like this is like such a multicultural place and different people coming together and different cultures being in one melting pot. And different personalities that express themselves. And so when people ask me, what is one of your biggest insights that you have so far here? I was like, I feel like that the level of judgment is so low, or the level of acceptance for who you are here is so high. And when I think about that and expanding that microcosm into something bigger, honestly, and it might sound even a bit cheesy, but the world as one community, I think that would be the vision. And like, because I'm so disheartened to some degree on what is happening on some levels, right, on the globe in many ways. But that as one community who forms its future together, who accepts its differences, who connects via its similarities, that is, I think, the bigger game. And I'm approaching that right now with something that I can touch, that is basically working working with like founders, creative leaders who are so inspiring to work with. Like if you also, if you walk into like an atelier of an artist, that's such a different world and I love it. So, and that's a scale I can touch, right, in many ways and hopefully inspire them a bit to see that business for me is not only about achieving, it is a lot about achieving, but not only about that. It's a place of hopefully of meaning, of creating connection, of growing, not results at the expense of performance or not people at the expense of performance. But all together in many ways. So that's the scale I can touch right now. And I hope it will somehow kind of lead to this bigger picture, so to say.

That's so beautiful. And I, in many ways, I think that's my vision too. And that's, you know, like this giving permission to everybody be themselves, right? And live their lives and without like dropping the judgment and raising acceptance to the roof. And I just want to share with you that as you're sharing the way you work and how you touch people's lives, the image that keeps coming to me is like those big buildings, like corporations with a brain. And then you're the one who carry like a bag of hearts and then you enter a place and then you just give like hearts to people, you know, like just, and I keep seeing you with like, I don't know, like Santa holding hearts and giving people like, hey, your heart is here. Like you have permission to feel, you have permission to, and it's, uh, I just wanted to share because like it, it expanded my heart to see like the way you touch people's lives and, and how you are contributing to this beautiful vision that you have, uh, in your own capacity. Right. And if we can all do that, eventually, like it grows bigger and bigger and bigger and we have different capacities and we are here for different reasons, but at the end of the day, I I think the big vision is the same for all of us, like more acceptance, less judgment, and more respect. So thank you for the work that you're doing and for being here with us.

Well, thank you as well. And thank you for the image. I got to, I think we better capture that and see what can be done.

Yeah, we need a Santa holding heart.

I appreciate it.

That's a good use for AI. We can go and use that on our caricature. Well, cool. Wow. Time has gone fast. I just looked at the clock and we're almost at the top of the hour. So I want to, you know, Before we close out, you know, one of the beautiful things we do these interviews here on Substack. So of course you're here on Substack, but if someone has been here listening with us or perhaps catches the replay later and gets curious about any aspect of this conversation we had, you know, I know you mentioned the assessments, the two different ways that people can, can learn a little something there, but what, anything else you would want to say in terms of what a best first step might be and where to find you. Would you say Substack is kind of the main place at this moment?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the most writing that I do is, well, the writing that I do like exclusively is actually on Substack and in the newsletter called The Space Between right now. So if you're curious about that and the frameworks and some of the stories, that's a great place to start. And absolutely, thank you for mentioning that. If you're curious where you are yourself right now, when it comes to these kinds of topics, there are, that there's actually two assessments, maybe one too many, but there's one to start with if one resonates with you. I'm happy to share that in the chat or just mention that. So the links are, you will also find that actually on Substack. So Substack is a great starting point where that connects you to everything else that I do.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we'll make sure all the links, those assessments and everything get into the recap too, so that we can make sure that they get shared out to everyone. So cool. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for being here with us. Beautiful conversation. And yeah, thank you for everyone that was able to join us live. I always enjoy the participation and hearing from folks. So thank you for those that were able to be here. And yeah, thank you, Mark. We'll be seeing you soon, I'm sure.

Likewise. Thank you very much, everyone.

Thank you, Mark.

Yes, thank you, you too.

Thanks, everyone.

Have a lovely day.

Thank you.

Bye. Take care.

Bye for now.