Brian Clark on the shift that came before the $70 million

So welcome to Sacred Business Stories. This is our weekly Substack Live where really we just have an honest conversation about what it looks like to build a business that aligns with your deepest truth. And today we're super excited to be joined by Brian Clark. In many ways, he doesn't need an introduction if you've been in the entrepreneurial space. He's a writer, perpetual traveler, serial digital entrepreneur, projects I've been very familiar with in the past. He's been involved with our copy blogger Studio Press and Rainmaker. But what really caught my attention and got me interested in having this conversation is what I see you doing now with your Substack publication around helping people kind of, it sounds like at the crossroads of midlife, really build location-independent businesses. And so I felt like there was a lot of crossover with our work and it could be an interesting conversation. So We are very happy to have you here and to hear your perspective. So welcome.

Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, to your point about further, we live in interesting times, which is actually a curse. So we need to adapt, but people in my generation X have been doing that the entire time. So I have faith.

Me too. Well, thanks for being here with us and thank you everybody for joining us. If you have any questions or any comments, um, just put it in the chat and, uh, we're going to try to respond to that live. I always like to remind ourselves and remind people like why we do Sacred Business Stories and it is purely for inspiration. So we are big believers that life happens right now, that you should be doing something that you love right now and, um, building a business that it's coming from your heart, that it is a combination of all of who you are, that packs your experience, your failures, your victories, um, is how we believe, um, one, if they have that calling, uh, should be living. And we like to invite people that we believe have a sacred business, that have a fulfilling life, that are helping others with something that truly matters for them. So thank you so much, Brian, for being here. And if you could just take us back, like we, one thing that we see often is people see where you are, but they don't know what it took for you to make your journey and to be where you are right now. So if you could just, I know it could be a lot. So whatever you find that's more relevant, uh, if you could take us behind, uh, the scenes, like a little bit of your journey, like your choices that made you come to where you are right now.

Yeah, I will try to give you the short version. The problem with if you live long enough, your story gets long. But I will try to condense it. So I was, let's see, I was a psychology major in college, sociology minor. Basically had to go to some form of graduate school or I would probably have to go get a sales job, which at the time, ironically, I thought was the worst thing you could possibly imagine. And now an entrepreneur is basically a high-level salesperson at all times. But that's, So that was part of the journey. So I ended up going to law school instead of psychology graduate school. I did really well on the LSAT, so I figured, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. I was really good at it. I made good grades, I made law review, I got a big law firm job, absolutely hated it, which is not that uncommon among attorneys. What's uncommon is that I actually quit. So I started that in '94. And that was the same year that the Netscape browser was launched and it made the internet accessible to non-technical people. So that was the first time I bought a computer in '94, which is bizarre for younger people to hear because that means I went through college and law school without a computer. But you could do that back in the analog days that I grew up in. So, you know, from '94 when I started working at the firm, until '98 when I quit, I just would go home and look at that beige compact box and say, this internet thing, there's gotta be a way to, to make a living by reaching all these people. And like most frustrated lawyers, I wanted to be a writer. And again, most people don't do anything about that. But I, I didn't go down the path of New York publishing or LA screenwriting, although I seriously studied screenwriting. Before I ever studied copywriting or anything related to business, which I think was really an indispensable skill because when you realize it's all storytelling in one form or another, but really what New York and LA looked like to me were more gatekeepers, people telling me I'm not good enough or blessing me with that I am, you know, whatever. I, that, that wasn't part of my wiring. I didn't like asking for permission. So the internet thing was attractive to me for that. So in '98 I quit and I started my first business. I had never taken a business class or written, read a marketing book. I was so clueless. I can see that so well now and it makes me smile. But I, I was confident that I could learn, you know, whatever it is. And at that time, there weren't courses and conferences and books on, on, you know, digital marketing and digital business. Everyone was making it up as they went along, you know, so you would talk to other people, you would watch what other people were doing in order to try to get a feel for it. So the first business was hopeless. Believe it or not though, it was email newsletters. It was based on publishing email newsletters. Here we are in 2026 and we're all doing email newsletters still. It is the enduring format. I hope it remains that way. So that business really, I didn't understand anything about creating products or selling anything. I thought you monetize content with advertising, right? And at that time, the digital advertising landscape was very primitive and early. So it was kind of the dot-com crash, just was a mercy killing for that first business. It's the only one that I started that, that failed. And it, it for good reason. I didn't know what I was doing. It was the wrong model. And then in '99, I read a book by a guy named Seth Godin, called Permission Marketing. And there was one line in it that really changed my path. It was, the internet is the greatest direct marketing medium the world has ever seen. And I, like many people, you hear direct marketing and you're thinking infomercials or just horrendous stuff, junk mail. But, you know, direct marketing is also something every Fortune 500 company at the time engaged in. And that's really what he was talking about, a direct relationship with people, your customers. You don't need a store or an intermediary. So that's when I taught myself or started studying copywriting. I studied direct response going back to the 1920s. I just did this crash learning experience, which really was my business education, if you will, because I didn't have anything. And it was kind of a blessing because I didn't understand traditional marketing and how it was practiced, so I learned it in a, in the context of with an internet mindset right from the beginning. And I think that was actually an advantage. Fast forward a little bit, you know, basically I understand that I need to sell stuff to succeed. I could create content. I attracted an audience of over 10,000 people in the failed business, but I didn't know what to do with it. So basically I, to support myself, I started practicing law on my own little solo firm powered by an email newsletter. So I just shifted. I started doing the same things with a different model. Then I shifted outside of law and started a virtual real estate company. That was my first big entrepreneurial success where I started making more money. Than I would've made if I stayed with the big law firm that I had something to prove in that regard, right? So I had a chip on my shoulder about it, and that went on until 2005. Had a near-death experience from a snowboarding accident. Really wasn't happy with the real estate business because I chose it again because I had something to prove and I knew I could make a lot of money doing it. You know, I mean, many entrepreneurs are motivated that way. But for me, I've always been purpose-driven, which is what I love about you guys as well. So even with the real estate business, it, it was purpose-driven in that I was an attorney. I understood how the real estate game was stacked against buyers in favor of sellers. So I only represented buyers. That's a sub-movement within real estate called exclusive buyer brokerage. So that was really the beginning of my purpose-driven aspect. And every business I've started since then, it's like a dozen, has succeeded because there's something personal that drives me because it's wrong. The status quo is wrong and I want to see it right, at least for some subset of people that think the same way. So in 2005, anyway, I was tired of working with clients. I'm an introvert, tired of trying to manage people that, you know, it had grown into something that was uncomfortable to me. And then you had the snowboarding accident, brain surgery, subdural hematoma. And I'm like, well, I'm not doing this anymore, which It was shocking because I had a wife and a 3-year-old daughter and a new baby that had just arrived in the form of my son. But that ultimately led to starting Copyblogger. I wanted to focus at what I was good at. I was really good in the earlier businesses at what we now call content marketing. It didn't have a name really at that time. And I enjoyed doing that because I got to write and I got to, be creative, but also create businesses in that context. So with Copyblogger, I was like, well, I'm gonna explain to all these wannabe professional bloggers, which was a new emerging thing in 2005, that what I, the mistakes I made in 1998 are the same they're making now. They're trying to monetize with Google AdWords and other advertising. We called it webmaster welfare back there because you would make pennies, you know, No. And I'm like, no, you gotta attract an audience and then you sell 'em things. And so that was really the beginning of Copyblogger. It took off after a few months of crickets. I found what I needed to do to really get people's attention. And then from there, I launched 3 7-figure, no-employee businesses in 3 years. In 2010, I exited one of those businesses and combined the other ones into a new company. That company went on to become an 8-figure software and hosting company. So that is a monumental success from reading one line in Seth Godin's book is how I like to explain it. But that's what set me on the path and I did a lot of work in order to, to learn what I needed to learn, but it's always been the foundation that if you're motivated enough and you have a reason, you know, why you want to do what you want to do, there's really nothing that can stop you. And I think that's more true today than ever. AI presents some complications, opportunities also. Potential pitfalls, but we're working our way through that, right? And that's what's interesting about right now because when I sold the company in 2018, people were like, oh, you're going to retire now? And I'm like, no, I'm not going to retire. I mean, I'm going to do nothing but get in trouble if I don't work. Besides, I like what I do. And that's when I read a book called The Longevity Economy by Joseph Coughlin. Basically, Talks about this demographic shift that we're right at the beginning of into an older society. Older people have all the household wealth, and yet advertisers and businesses are still trying to talk to Gen Z who are not, you know, the only money my kids have is from me. So, you know, they're having a hard time and they've got their own challenges, but This was fascinating to me, and that's what I did. That was my purpose going forward. And that led to the whole idea that Generation X in particular are the canaries in the coal mine, because we're going to have to work longer. We have less retirement savings than we should. And yet people still think you're washed up in your 50s. People meaning employers. So you have this tension and it just feels like things are going to change in the, I say 2030's the tipping point where everyone starts realizing what's going on. But in the meantime, I fear the layoffs are coming with the economy and the level of ageism that we still have and all of that. So that's my new mission essentially with Further.

That's beautiful. Yeah. Wow. There are several things I would love to touch on in there, but one that I thought is real interesting is that, yeah, you were very early on and a key part of that early content marketing. And I'm just curious about your relationship with Substack because I see you're growing here pretty well. And it's funny, I was just doing a workshop for one of my previous clients, Leo from Zen Habits, who was kind of an early blogger.

Ah, Leo.

Yes. Yeah, it was so funny because I did the workshop and it was about Substack and at the end he kind of grinned and it was funny because he was like, you know, he's like, so interesting because I'm just starting to learn Substack. He's like, but basically if we took Substack out of the name of this presentation, it just feels like the same, you know, the same thing that I was doing back in 2006. And it's just been really interesting. And that was one of the things that kind of attracted me to Substack was just kind of that kind of community base. It kind of felt like the old days of blogging, which I kind of was on the tail end of. So that was one thing I was just interested in. And then the other one, which I'm really interested, 'cause you kind of moved past it. I'm curious because I had a similar experience where I was in a business that was very optimized for money making and I had health challenges and they really kind of tipped me in the direction of purpose. And so I was also just very curious to kind of hear a little bit more if you're willing to share about kind of what role that, you know, that, that injury played in kind of the direction you've gone with your work. 'Cause it sounded like maybe it was quite, quite significant.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'll address both of those. Cool that, you know, Leo, he was, I think he started Zen Habits before I, he was around before I started Copyblogger, but it was all the same era.

Do you know him?

And yeah, so I started teaching effectively content marketing 2 years before it had a name. My friend Joe Pulizzi, who was from the corporate business-to-business side, had been in corporate publishing, which is content marketing, but kind of boring compared to the way we did it. And he's like, we need to call this something. Let's call it content marketing. And so yeah, it, I was very early to it and even earlier when you think about starting to do it in '98, but it was just what the internet is different. I mean, you can't force people to sit through your message, you know, if they don't like what you're saying, they're going to click away. That was the early lesson that content was what they wanted, not sales pitches and not advertising. So that was really the insight that helped me get going. And the second thing, when you have health issues or, you know, a near life-ending situation, you get clarity really fast. And you, for me, it was just like, I'm just Life is precious. I'm not going to do things, excuse me, I'm not going to do things just for money anymore. And again, I was in a different place than I was in '98. I now had a family, but I had faith because I knew I was good at it and that I would figure it out. And here's the irony, you know, once I started living more truly to who I was and what I wanted to do, even though I felt like You know, all I want to do is, if I can support my family, that's all I ask. That's literally the mindset I had going in. And I made $70 million in sales between 2007 and 2017. So I'm not saying if you follow your purpose, you're going to become a millionaire, but I am saying that the work becomes real. You know, it, Your purpose keeps you going. You don't dread what you're doing. You don't feel like a sellout. You know, all these things that matter. You know, you can say, I'm going to go for the money, but can you? Because sometimes you have to have a real mercenary soul to do that. And I don't have that, unfortunately. And I don't think many people do when it comes down to it.

Yeah, it's nice that the way you're saying, because it feels that like, it could be like a primary motivation, like, uh, because money is like the need for, you know, paying your bills or survival shift, but it doesn't take you like you could go somewhere and then it takes you somewhere. And then just for you to realize that that's just like a tiny, tiny piece of the whole equation. Right. And it felt to me like even, even before like the, the, um, the real estate business, like. I lost cool and then like, I hate it and then I quit, you know, like, so you have that in you, like this, I don't know if it's like this passion for life or the sense of like being alive, because even with the multiple business that you've had, like, what is it that you would like share with people that like, I just go and I try and I like, I didn't know what to do, but I knew I could learn. That for me, it's, it's another aspect that sometimes people like, they don't even believe that they can learn or. Which is kind of like feeding the overthinking. They think they need to know way more to begin, right? And like, I need to have all the information. So then I—

it doesn't work that way.

It doesn't work that way. Can you share more of like how you see and how you're able to take all the steps and make all the shifts? And, you know, I'm sure you hit walls, but you turn and you find a way forward. So yeah, could you share a little more on that?

Yeah. The thing about being ready is, you know, in your own mind, you're never going to be ready. And if you're new to this, if you're experienced at this, you know, you're never going to be ready because you have to start and start gleaning insights that you get, that you only get from doing the work. And specifically with this kind of model where you attract an audience first, which is Substack, you know, but it, in the blogging days, that was a new thing. You are literally attracting a customer base who will, they won't tell you directly, and I never asked, but I observed. And the great thing about Substack and why Leo probably feels it's similar, and I've made the same comment, this is as close as we'll get to the way things were. While every other social platform, the algorithm stifles outbound links, You know, the way I used Twitter in 2008 doesn't exist anymore, right? It's a completely different world, but it does exist on Substack. But anyway, so what I love, one aspect of Substack that's great is comments, you know, comments on notes, comments on your content. Because back in the day, you know, one of the initial criteria of how successful a post was, was how many comments it had. But the hidden benefit of that was what you would glean about how the audience felt, specifically pain points. So no one ever came right out and said, I need this course, or I need this SaaS product, you know, two of the things that we created. But the indications were there clear as day if you would pay attention and you care. I think, like, if you care about your audience, And also if you share, it's like natural empathy when there was a version of you that used to be them, right? Like I used to be that guy in '98 who didn't know what he was doing and was making these mistakes. And then I see other people doing it and I'm like, oh, I can help them. You know, I'm that person, you know, 7 years ago. So this, the indications of what to do in the majority of, of, of the case, you still have to know what your topic is and what, what you stand for and have a point of view, which is what a lot of people struggle with. But once you, you have that, you just start putting things out there and then you start watching. And seeing what the feedback is. And again, it's not going to be someone who just tells you point blank. I think Steve Jobs said it's not the entrepreneur's— no, it's not the customer's job to know what they want. It's the entrepreneur's job. Right. And I took that to heart as well. And you will find out. And social media is like drinking from a fire hose. But if you, if you keep it manageable like a blog or your Substack, then you can get feedback from your audience. You can also monitor your topic with other people's audiences, decide who your ideal type of person is, because not everyone is your prospect. You know, not everyone who has the problem you solve is going to like you or want to work with you, but the ones who do need to be very excited about it. And that's why you carefully choose your audience is what I always say. And you do that by the way you are to a degree yourself, right? The unique way that you come at whatever topic it is or whatever problem you solve.

Yeah. I love what you shared there because this aspect of kind of uncertainty and needing to learn through the doing is so important. And I think so many people struggle to get their head around this because they don't realize, and I've shared this and we've had many clients like this too, that they don't, you know, the first 90 days maybe of doing content, they're just like learning and experiencing themselves in that role, in that relationship. And often, you know, we all come with like our best hypothesis, right, of what this is, right?

You got to have your best guess.

Yeah, you're gonna have—

but don't get wedded to it.

Yeah, you don't get wedded. So, because so often within, let's say, 90 days, you— you're— it's, it's a pleasant surprise when you realize, wow, like, this is actually where I should be going. But you don't learn that by just intellectualizing and staying in your head and just kind of thinking more about it and trying to solve it. You, you learn it, which I feel like you beautifully articulated, by being in relationship with others and observing and paying close attention. So yeah, this is, if you're listening, this is a very important aspect that Brian just shared. I'm curious, you know, something I think we have in common is you spoke to kind of, you know, the gatekeepers and things like this. And to me, this like, this aspect of freedom, which I hear in your message and when you talk about location independence and things like this, but You know, one of the things that seems to come up a lot that creators face and that people that we speak with is kind of fear and resistance, right? And so like, to me, that moment when you were like, wow, I have a newborn on the way and I'm making this big shift, like how did you work with, you know, to me it's very natural and people think it means something's gone wrong when fear or resistance comes up, but to this is actually just part of the process. And I'm curious, how did that show up for you? And when you had those moments of like, oh gosh, like I need to— if you had those moments of like, oh gosh, I need to provide for my family and things aren't necessarily going perfect all the time. How did you kind of keep yourself working with that in a way that was constructive?

Yeah, that's a great question. I've always had a certain amount of grace under pressure and you don't need a whole lot of motivation to avoid procrastination when you're afraid of not being able to provide for your family. So I didn't grow up with money. My first 7 years, it was just me and my mom. We were poor. Then my mom remarried and we had a nice stable I would say middle-class life, not no extravagance whatsoever. But so I've always been very practical and I think, as you mentioned earlier, while you, you know, I went to law school and didn't like it and quit, and then I did the real estate business and didn't like it and did something else. So I made those decisions based on my practicality. And I had to learn over time that being purpose-driven and that actually doing what you really want is not selfish. It's not, it doesn't make you, yeah, it's not a selfish act. You know, if I would've stayed doing work that made me miserable, what kind of father would I have been? You know? So you have to think about all the angles and I usually do after the fact. And then I have to course correct. Now I don't really have that problem, but of course it's 25 years later. So it's a good question because it causes me to reflect back at that time. And I just know that I was, you know, I just showed up and was driven, but I was no longer doing it because I had something to prove. I was doing it because this is what I really want to do. And if I don't succeed, I can't do it anymore. I mean, does that make sense? Like, that was a pretty strong motivator in addition to the fact that I had a family to support.

Yeah. And it's beautiful the way you were sharing. I have two kids and kind of like I've taken some risks and like my careers and shifting business and making changes in my life. And Sometimes it's almost like, well, I felt judged. I'm not saying that that's exactly what people thought, but I felt that there was like that sense of like I was being irresponsible. But then deep inside, I had that feeling of like, what I want to teach to my kids, for example, is that they need to follow that thing and they need to go out there and they need to try. And if they fail, they need to know that they have the capacity to try it again or to do differently. And if there's something in their heart, like they need to follow that thing and not stay in that career because they make money, but they're feeling miserable. Um, so I just resonate with what you're saying. And sometimes, like my mind, I remember like at the time was kind of like, you're a little crazy. Like you have a child to take care of, like you're doing, you know, but at the end of when I pause and I'm very centered, I'm like, but this is exactly what I want her and what I want now, like both of them to learn is to actually pursue those things and to follow their hearts.

Yep, absolutely.

And, um, yeah, another topic I would love to kind of pick your brain on because I feel that, um, you know, after so many years, this is probably just a natural skill for you. A lot of folks, um, you know, even in, in this era, like, and maybe even and more so, they're coming online and, um, they struggle to, and actually I think it's in part response to how I'll just call it toxic. A lot of other social media has gotten outside of Substack, but people just, they struggle with how do I actually make meaningful, authentic connection online while they're sharing their message when so much stuff just kind of feels fake and plastic. And I'm just curious, and maybe it would be helpful to hear your current perspective as you're building this new publication. Like what is your approach to connection and what advice might you have for someone who is trying to share, who believes they have something in their heart that is really important, but they're kind of struggling to share that consistently?

Yeah, I'm a big believer in values-based marketing, which is finally getting its due. Going back to Steve Jobs, he's probably the greatest values-based marketer that's ever lived. Apple and the Macintosh were built not only on company values, but those were Steve's values. Now, Steve had problems. He wasn't always the nicest guy, but he lived by the courage of his convictions. No one can say that. And he believed in creativity and freedom and going against the status quo, you know, and all those ad campaigns, the crazy ones, and Think Different, and even 1984, you saw that. But really what values-based marketing means is that, well, if you're more corporate, then you're targeting certain psychographic characteristics, you know, certain profiles as opposed to demographic, which is almost useful. I think the stat is that only 8% of people who share a demographic characteristic such as income or age or or what have you on any given issue, only 8% of people agree based on that. So demographics, just like, how do you— I always use the example of the late Ozzy Osbourne and King Charles. They have the exact same demographic profile. They're British, they've been married twice, they're wealthy, and they both live in a castle. If you're looking at zip codes, you know, those two couldn't be any more different. But here's the interesting thing, all the toxicity. Now recently, a lot of people on Substack are upset because Andrew Tate has come up.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not a fan of Mr. Tate and I suppose you guys aren't either. But he has that audience because he appeals to the values of those people and he influences the values of those people. So Yes, he's bad, but the audience is getting what they want. And so that this is a hard pill to swallow because greed is a value, right? Gordon Gekko, greed is good, that kind of thing. And there are people who share those values. So when we think about values, we always think more like social justice or positive or progressive ideas, but that's not true. There are all sorts of values. And not all of them are pleasant. And really, that's what you've seen with the toxicity that we call the internet, is it being okay for various reasons that we could label, that it's been okay to be awful. And if you put those values out there, then you attract people that have the same values. So that's an example from the other side. But what you two are doing to me is the epitome of values-based, you know, content. You know, it sometimes feels weird to call it marketing, but anything you put out there that's trying to attract and influence people is, it's marketing. You know, we perform marketing trying to convince our kids to eat their broccoli. So that's my answer. You've got to be unafraid to stand for something. And you have to understand that just because people don't agree with you, that's not a bad thing. That means you'll resonate more strongly with the people who do see things the way you do. There are people out there who are like, oh, that's Sacred Heart stuff. That's just a bunch of touchy-feely nonsense.

All right.

Those are people who feel that way.

They don't share the same values.

Yeah. Especially them. But yeah, well, let them go. They're not the right people for you. And that's okay. And that's the hardest thing for people because they're like, well, if I, if I say something that people don't like, I'm going to get attacked or people are going to disagree with me in the comments. That's okay. You know, most often you can't really say anything anymore without someone disagreeing with you, whether or not they take the time to say something nasty. Hopefully not. But you have to realize that's about them, not you. You just go on standing for what you believe in and you'll attract the right people. But if you try to create generic content because you're afraid to say anything that matters, you will not succeed. It's just the rule.

Yeah. I had a friend, kind of mentor who had this term haterade, right? And it was, you know, you've probably heard this, that it's almost like a milestone when when someone is telling you they don't like your stuff.

Absolutely. It took me a while. I didn't enjoy it in the early days either. I used to go to battle with people in the Copyblogger comments. Like, we would go viral. I don't know if you even remember Digg. It was a social media news site, very early social media. And there were a lot of haters. Oh my goodness. And they would all come over and tell us that we were marketing scum and all of this lovely stuff. And to me, I was like, you know, you say what you want about me, but I feel like you're attacking my audience and I'm going to stand up for them. And people that were there to learn from me, they really appreciated that. Like, wow, this guy is defending us, you know? And I was just doing what I was going to do because I wasn't going to let those guys come into my house and say this stuff. Now we just block everyone, right? It's not worth the fight.

Yeah. And on this Andrew Tate thing, it's funny, I was having a conversation with someone a couple days ago actually about this, and they were asking my opinion and they were actually saying, well, hey, like, I'm really upset that Substack is allowing him to publish on the platform and it's making me think about whether I want to publish on the platform now, and maybe this is the reason why I'm not going to move forward. And my perspective around that, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. It may be different. But my thought around this for people that struggle to share their message but do have something that is meaningful and purpose-led, I feel like this is like almost your call to art, kind of like you said, defending your people. This is almost like your call to put your message out there because When you fill the space with other things that are meaningful and helpful for people, it actually gives less space for voices like that to kind of cut through. It's kind of like how they talk about if you have alcoholism or a drug problem, you don't just focus on eradicating the problem. You focus on like, how do I bring other healthy habits and things into my life so that there's less space for that? And so I encourage people like, hey, don't let that sort of stuff stop you from sharing what is in your heart to share, actually, you know, be part of the solution and actually make it where there's less space in a way for those things to exist. So I don't know. I just, I think that's, it could be useful for people who, yeah, who struggle with those sorts of things. Yeah.

There's, there's no platform that is free from toxicity. And if you're purpose-driven or driven by anything, you have an obligation to do it. You have an obligation to spread your message and put it out there. And if it's putting good into the world, then yeah, you're right. That's a counterbalance to the dark side, right? I mean, come on, Star Wars taught us this. But I kind of alluded to this earlier and I'm not trying to be a Substack guru or anything, but this is the last place, you know, uh, again, the, the reason why you see so many of the OG bloggers here is because it's got that same vibe and it's the only place like this left. Social media is basically worthless. LinkedIn is worthless in my estimation. It, it just doesn't make sense. But Substack is optimized to, uh, convert Traffic into email subscribers. That is the game. It's been that way since 1998. It's still gonna be that way going forward. And so don't, don't leave Substack because of scum like that. You know, do your thing. Don't worry about it. Block the haters or, or try to reason with them. It won't work, but you'll look good to other people who drive by, right? Just think about everything in those terms. Even if you deal with someone who's clearly not your type of person and they're just popping off and saying something borderline rude, you know, take that as an opportunity to make yourself look like the good person you are. And don't, don't think about it and trying to change their mind. Just think about how does this appear to other people who come by who may be interested in this, who may be my ideal prospect, And how is this gonna read when they click over and they consider subscribing themselves? Right. So that, that sounds a little strategic, doesn't it? But that's okay because how else are you supposed to face, you know, someone giving you the hater aid? Well, it's a good sign. It means you're, you're causing a ruckus.

And I think it can, Sorry, I was just going to say, I think it could be both. I think that's another thing that sometimes people are challenged by, that this idea that authenticity can also be strategic. And to me, those two things can coexist. I think there's some people that feel that if it's strategic, then by some means, by labeling it or having a strategic mindset around it, it somehow negates the authenticity. And I just, I don't believe that.

We all choose what to reveal. This, this is just that in a more you know, professional or business context.

Yeah, I was just about to say that I think this is, uh, it's a great challenge for anyone because it goes way beyond the strategy. Like, it could work well for your business, but it's just like, um, putting the flag for what you believe and standing up for the things that often, like, when we are— and we see that especially when other people were, like, way louder, we could— people tend to, like, oh, I'm not going to even bother this, right? Like, I'm not going to even share anything. I'll just stay silent here. But I think it's, um, it's a great challenge to just like, no, go there and show the good person that you are and go there and show like the good heart that you have. Um, so if anyone is watching and if you have that in your life, I'll for sure take that because sometimes I just like, I don't bother, just block it and that's it. But I'll take that as an advice for me to speak up as well.

So thank you for that. Yep.

I just realized that I called your, I called you Sacred Heart instead of Sacred Business and Sacred Heart is the hospital and scrubs. Did you ever watch this?

No, that's okay.

Let me, and that's a, that's another thing that, uh, I'm a big pop culture guy and so I've always incorporated that aspect of me into my content, you know, and use it to make analogies and whatnot. So it's not that when people say, well, you have to have a niche and you gotta just stick to it, you know, no, you have to bring yourself into it, whatever that may be. Often the intersection of two unrelated things, your business topic and something about you, combine to make really compelling content.

Yeah, I think these are the masters, especially in the copy world. Like one of my friends, you may actually know, do you know Kevin Rogers? He runs something called CopyChief.

But anyway, yeah, I've heard the name.

Yeah, I just admire his writing so much because in his background, he's musician and he is a comedian. He actually had a history of doing standup comedy and of course he was writing all this direct response marketing, but he brings, he brought so much of that who he was to his message that it was undeniably him. Like nobody else could write about marketing the way he did because nobody else has that unique blend of—

Exactly.

And the comedy.

And yet the impulse is to be afraid of that. Right?

Yeah.

You know, you have to be unique. It's Marketing 101, and yet that's the thing people resist. So you have to stand for something. You have to have a, a point of view, and you have to come at it differently. And that can feel hard with so many people out there talking about the same stuff. So you really have to dig deep into you, right? Instead of looking externally for what that unique thing is.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, Brian, the last question I have for you, and then I also want to create a little bit of space to share more of your message, but, you know, likely with your background, it's a lot of fundamentals and a lot of the things that have been working, as you've mentioned today, since the '90s still work today. But I'm curious, I'd like to ask people, you know, because especially here on Substack, there are loud voices. Some of them are still useful voices, but you tend to hear the same kind of Substack growth advice being kind of parroted over and over again. And I'm curious if there's anything in the last few months that has surprised you that maybe isn't something you hear, if you can think of anything that you don't hear people talking about a whole lot that has been working for you that you might be able to offer for folks.

Yeah. So to your point about the fundamentals, you know, goes back farther than the '90s. It goes back to Aristotle. You know, it's basically human nature doesn't change. My favorite quote is technology doesn't change human nature, it amplifies it. And I think that's pretty telling here, especially with the volume analogy and issue. But, you know, Substack is the environment. If you're worried about leaving, I would encourage you not to. There's not really anywhere you're going to go where you can get results and you're still going to find unpleasant people. So that's number one. Number two, notes. You, you both do a great job with notes. I'm a little uneven, but that's just been— I'm in France right now, by the way. I forgot to mention that part. It's like, it's like 8 o'clock right here.

Oh wow. Yeah. A little bit of time difference.

But yeah, so we were traveling quite a bit, so that threw me off my rhythm. But yeah, I struggle with notes like a lot of people do, you know, because even though I had a huge following on Twitter back in the day and And I was kind of highly irreverent. You know, half, most of my content had nothing to do with the business, but the audience found me highly entertaining. So I don't do that as naturally anymore. But when I do, those are the notes that work. When I try to sit there and extract nuggets from stuff, you know, like AI is great at extracting stuff from your content, but they never feel right to me. But then I'll just say something off the top of my head and that's what resonates. So I think you just have to embrace the need to reveal yourself through the notes, uh, side of things because it really does drive subscriptions. Again, Substack is optimized for people to join email lists. That's the entire model. So you have to do notes, but you have to do it in a way that works for you. If you're good at just sharing 3 or 5 things that you wrote about, you know, that week, then do that. I should do more of that and I will, but I also need to just remember that when I have a thought, I used to never have a problem sharing whatever thought popped in my head, and now maybe I'm older and wiser. Yeah, I definitely am a little bit wiser, or not as dumb as I used to be. But that keeps me bottled up to a certain degree. So I got to loosen that up and realize that this is what people— they're looking for perspective. They're looking for interesting ways to look at it that are the intersection of 25 years of experience combined with currently working to figure out how to make AI work for us. You know? So again, interesting times, plenty to stand for, plenty to talk about. Just don't stifle yourself. Don't censor yourself. Don't be controversial because you think you have to. You can say something perfectly reasonable that someone will find controversial. You don't have to try. You just have to be true to yourself and try to have a vision that people want to follow along with for how the world should be, whatever that may be. That could be accounting or it could be climate change. Purpose doesn't have any boundaries. It's what's important to you. That you can now turn into something that you can do for a living and be happy.

Beautiful. Yeah. And with that, Brian, if anyone's been listening to this or just kind of gotten curious about what you're up to, what would be— yeah, what would you suggest as a starting point if they want to dig a little bit more into your publication or what you've been sharing these days here on Substack? I guess I'm assuming is Substack your main home now, or do you—

It really is. Yeah. For the last year, I started a Substack in 2023 on the longevity economy. Didn't have one of those situations where I didn't really know what I was doing again, except for the fundamentals, right? And those are what matter. And I became like a Substack bestseller. I didn't even know what that was. Off the, you know, check mark shows up one day and, and, and that's when I purposefully tried to dig in. To Substack because I really do see it as the last outpost for people trying to build email lists. And if you're not trying to build an email list, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong because you need an audience that you have ownership of. You know, even here you can take that email list with you and go somewhere else if you need to. So you can find me here at Substack. Further, I guess it's news.further.net is the URL. And yeah, I generally speak to people basically 45 to 70 who are not ready to retire, which is my situation. People, and then there are other people who really can't and they need something that is more reliable than an employer who will cut you off because you're 58 or 62, and yet you're not ready to go anywhere, and you're still, you're probably at your prime. You know, I feel that way. You know, like I said, I'm not as dumb as I used to be. It's good.

It keeps getting better and better.

Yeah, well, cool. Well, yeah, thank you for your generosity of time. And we put together a recap of these conversations after the fact, so we'll be sure to include links to your publication and where folks can find you there and also share with you in case you find it helpful. You'll have that. But yeah, we really, really appreciate you being here with us and sharing your story. And yeah, it's just really, it's been on a personal level, it's just really been nice to connect because I know I've been a little quieter on Substack the last month or two as well because I've been going through a move. But it's been, I've really enjoyed seeing your content and the few interactions we've had. So it's great to kind of connect on a more personal level here. So thank you for creating the time with us.

Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. You're doing great work. So keep it up and yeah, maybe we can figure some other stuff out to do.

Maybe.

Yeah. That's the beauty. Collaboration is a big part of it too. We didn't even get to talk about that, but It is.

Yeah. So happy to talk more about that anytime. So yeah, thank you. And yeah, enjoy your time in France and hopefully we'll be in touch and, and yeah, thank you for all of you that were here live. A few people giving you invitations to come hang out with them and drink rosé, Brian. So you might want to, might want to take them up.

I generally abstain these days, but I cannot, I cannot avoid French wine. It is so good. You can go down the grocery store and spend like 5 or 6 euros which is like $8, and get the best wine, you know, that would cost $30 in the States. It's so good. So yeah, I might, I might be open to some of those invitations.

Thank you so much, Brian. It was nice to connect with you. Thank you everyone for being here with us.

All right. Take care.

Bye.

Bye-bye.