Dr. Kelly Flanagan: When Your Business Triggers Become Your Biggest Breakthrough

So we are live if you're tuning in. Welcome to Sacred Business Stories. This is our weekly substack live where we have really just an honest conversation about what it looks like to build a business that aligns with your deepest truth. And through an awesome recommendation and being able to check out his work, we are honored to be joined by Dr. Kelly Flanagan. He is an award winning author, international speaker. There's a lot of things I could say about him. He's been featured in five love Languages, the Today show, success magazine, and I know you're got a book coming out early next year as well, is that correct?

I do, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So and. And that book is called the Road Less Triggered.

And.

And you run a group here on substat called the Less Triggered Tribe.

Is that, Is that the Less Triggered Tribe? Exactly. Yes. Yeah, Yeah. I have discovered that most of our personal growth and personal and professional spaces happens in the moments where we're getting triggered. And so if we can isolate those moments and repurpose them for growth than disconnection, amazing things happen. So that's what we do at my substack and that's what the book is about. The Road Less Triggered.

Beautiful. Well, welcome. We're really happy to have you and I think this will be a fun conversation just kind of because I feel like there's so much overlap and how we're supporting people maybe coming at it from different angles. So. Yeah. But I'll let Carolina share a little bit more about why we do what we do here with the show and then we'll kick it to you.

So that's great.

Yeah. I always like to remind people like why we created sacred business stories and it's really a container for inspiration. So as we see people doing things that we find interesting and then we can understand their journey, that everything began like many years ago and the road is not always very easy. And it's not that an overnight success. We just like to bring down to earth. Like, yeah, if it's possible for one, for two, for three, it's also possible for whoever is listening here. So this container is really, really for inspiration, to allow people and to give permission to more people to do business from the heart that is connected to something. Just like you said. Like I discovered that for myself. I noticed that we got triggered and then finding a solution for you for something that truly matters for you, you ended up like creating a bit. And I know it's not as simple as that. It's like a lot of. But you know, just to inspire people to create their sacred business as well. So we would love to hear, like, about your journey a little bit, like, when we started and how. How it came to be what it is right now.

I am just now realizing I'm in the middle of the kind of podcast I dreamed about hosting myself years ago, but I'm just not a podcast guy. Like, it was a podcast that would be designed to talk to people and have them tell their business stories so that Gen Z could learn that none of us know what we're doing. We're just making it.

We've.

We're making it up as we go, learning to listen to our intuition as we go, and that no one's a fraud. We're all just. We're all just imposters trying to sort it out. So this is such a. I'm very excited for this.

Thank you. I love. I love the way you explain. That's exactly what it is. Like, we are kind of like walking day by day and discovering as we go. Right?

That's right.

Yeah. And it's. It's very easy. It's very easy, I feel, to see kind of the. The success story or even as I read out some of the legitimate successes that you've had, and just to think, like, hold yourself apart from that and be like, okay, like, something about Dr. Kelly is special, different, and that's not me. Right. And that's really what we'd like to hear is like, of course we want to hear about your work and how you're impacting people, but, you know, more so, like. Yeah, what does that kind of winding road look like? Like, where. Where did the inspiration, the original inspiration come from?

And.

And, you know, how did you kind of find your way to where you are today? So, yeah, I mean, I think that's just like, a really good starting. Starting point is like, you know, when you think about your own journey, like, kind of what were the pivotal, pivotal moments that kind of led you to the work that you're. That you're doing today with your audience and your clients and.

Yeah, well, let's see. I was desperate to make my mom and dad proud of me. Let's start there, because that's just the starting point. Right? Can we just all agree, like. And. But no, I mean, seriously, certainly one of the pivotal moments that first comes to mind, I was in a PhD program where I met my wife, and we got married and had our first child while we were in the PhD program. And there was a moment where I was working on my dissertation and I was at my desk and I just shouted out one day and it was sort of a surprise to me when I shouted it. I just want to work with clients all day, every day. I don't want to do research. This is just not for me. It was just one of those. It's like it happened to me, that awareness, rather than me sort of calculating the awareness. And so from there I went into outpatient mental health practice, became a licensed psychologist, spent my days sort of building a full time caseload. And then I think it was like, I want to say it was fall of 2011, the main third party payer for my practice, Blue Cross Blue Shield, announced that they were going to cut our rates by 15%. And my family, my young family at that point didn't have the margin to handle a 15% reduction in my revenue, right? It was like, oh, wow. Like I'm entirely dependent upon these jokers for my revenue and they don't give a rip about me, right? And so I'm going to have to figure out some way to start to generate a demand for my services that allows me to diversify my revenue stream. And I remember thinking, I've always wanted to write and this blogging thing, sort of a big deal right now. So maybe I write a blog, right? So I wrote a blog post. Like six people read it, but one of them said, well, what are you going to write next week? And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, well, if you're a blogger, you have to at least write a blog post a week, right? And I'm like, oh, I didn't know what I was getting into, but I really did enjoy writing that one. So I'll write a second one. And then I really enjoyed writing that one. So then I wrote a third, my ninth blog post, Marriages for Losers went really viral. And then someone's like, so how many people are on your email list? And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, you have to be collecting email addresses. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I start collecting email addresses. And then about a year later, I had a letter that I wrote to my daughter go really viral. A year after that, a second letter to her went even more viral. She and I wound up on the Today show. It was a trippy couple of years following that intuition to start writing publicly. And by that point, am I doing okay here? Do you want to keep going?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, please.

Okay.

You're awesome.

So then by that point now I have. So I publish a Book after the Today show called Embracing what is truest about you so that you can truly embrace your life. And it is about. It's about learning to settle into a sense of your own worthiness so that you can start to show up to your. To your people. You know, you can start to actually, like, reveal yourself in the world and find out who celebrates that. And those are your people. And then with their support and their mirroring, to be able to go out in the world and do what you love. And so I generated enough demand for my services at that point that I was able to actually leave my W2 counseling job and start my own practice. And talking about a learning experience and making it up as you go. Right. And over the course of several years, wound up with. I think we ended up with four full time therapists at our peak. But at the same time, I was developing a speaking career on the side in relation to this book lovable. And entrepreneurs were reaching out to me saying, hey, would you coach me on some of these ideas? So that was starting to sort of take shape on the side. I was getting more and more speaking engagements. And so then it became a question of, do I actually depart from this, my main revenue stream, which has been outpatient mental health my entire adult life. Do I depart from that and sort of go all in on this other more entrepreneurial solopreneur of adventure, which I ultimately did in at the beginning of 2023. And. And then things have progressed from there to where we're at today.

Beautiful.

And how.

Go ahead, Katna.

No, it's just beautiful to see how you're almost like following the breadcrumbs. Right? Like, it's not that I had like this massive plan. I'm like, well, I got my pay cut and now I need to create something. And like, there's something that I like. Like, that's what sometimes I feel people underestimate. Like, I, like, write and then you're like, oh, I'm gonna write a blog. You know, so maybe writing wasn't totally connected to what you were serving or doing at your job, but you're like, oh, I like to do this. So. And then you get another breadcrumb. Right? Another tip. Or like, what is next? And what is next? And is if you, if we just keep doing it, like, we're gonna get there, right?

Yes. Yeah. My own coach. So, yeah, I was being. A couple weeks ago, I got into a really pretty neurotic space about my upcoming book launch. And, like, I'm going to mess it up. And it's going to be a terrible failure. And I've invested so much in it. And he says to me something along the lines of like, well, Kelly, you're either going to mess it up royally or it's going to be a huge success. But all you will have done is you'll have created the next conditions for your spiritual growth. Right. And I feel like when we try to get a little too far ahead of ourselves in terms of visioning and planning, and this is what I'm going to accomplish in five years or 10 years, years, every time we take a step towards it, we're creating new conditions. And in my experience, learning to stay attuned to one's intuition as the conditions shift and change, as you sort of are creating the reality of things, it leads to much wiser decisions and even better outcomes than I. You know, I have to say that nothing I've planned has worked out. It's worked out better because I didn't stay sort of tethered to the plan, if that makes, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I totally love that, the way you put that because that's something, you know, in our business that's part of what we do is we help people create the plan and structure to kind of anchor their vision down. But one of the things that we always talk about is like, don't hold this too tightly, right. Like hold it lightly. Like this is all this is, is the best hypothesis or co creation of your best thinking and our experience. And really it's designed to get you to take that next step. And when you take that next step, everything's going to become more clear because you're going to be learning what you need to learn from that next action. And so that's right. Yeah. I feel like this is this, this, this artful dance, a little bit of like holding that vision and having the plan, but, but holding it lightly and just letting yourself be informed by the moment.

That's it. It's like so this time of year it gets, you know, the, the daylight's getting shorter here in Chicago. And so if I want to go on a morning bike ride, it's going to be in the dark. And so I got a headlamp on the bike, right. And so I know I, I know where I'm going to go. I have a sense of is going to be. But I can only see about 10ft ahead. Right. And you have to make constant adjustments for. And I feel like it's that the non. Duality of that, the paradox of that of like, I've got my plan, but I'm also really mainly attuned to what I can see in the 10ft ahead of me. And I'm trying to adjust as I go. Like, I feel like it's both. And yeah.

I'm curious back to your. Kind of back to your story and how you got to where you are now. Like, where, where exactly did that intersect with kind of like what I was reading about and what you shared about this message about the less triggered tribe. And kind of, you know, I was reading your bio and you talked about kind of. I'm just curious like how much of your own experience informed kind of this particular direction. You know, I know you mentioned your marriage and hitting a ceiling and things like this. So I'm just curious about that side of things.

Yeah, I skipped over that. You know, I yada yadaed over the best part, as Elaine Bendis would say in Seinfeld.

So.

For me, probably the biggest pivot in my personal and professional life happened at the end of 2020. So, like, Covid hit hard for me. I was in the middle when Covid hit. I was in the middle of my business partnership dissolving with that mental health practice and my best friendship with that business partner dissolving as well. Covid hit. My wife and I were both running mental health practices at the time, and all of a sudden overnight, we had to do something that just yesterday was illegal, which was learn how to see people remotely. You weren't allowed to do that prior to Covid Health insurance wouldn't let you do it. So now all of a sudden you have to do something that was illegal. So there's no infrastructure for doing it. So you have to build the infrastructure overnight so that you can pay your therapist and so these clients can continue to get helped. Super stressful. I mean, the kids are at home. You know, I always said that they were becoming zombies. Just like you could just see the life draining out of them. For me, it all culminated there was a Sunday afternoon. My wife convinced me to buy an above ground pool. Like she'd been trying for years, but now all the local pools were closed. So she's like, you know, she has some leverage to get me to do it. And so we did. And she was filling up the pool one Sunday afternoon. She hung the hose over the side of the pool and put a rock on it to anchor it there, but the rock wasn't heavy enough. And we came out a few hours later and the backyard was a lake and the pool was. And Like I got triggered and sort of, it felt like all the stress sort of added up and I was like, I know if I stay here, I'm not going to, I'm going to regret the things I say and do. So I'm just going to go on a bike ride. I'm going to blow off steam. It's not very smart to cycle at 30, 35 miles an hour when you're like angry. And I made a couple stupid moves. I ended up going over the handlebars in my bike and I broke my left collarbone on, on the Asphal and. But what happened was it was a break in just such a way that it never fully healed. They're called non union tissue fractures. So I basically got two hinges in this collarbone now where there weren't any before, but super slow, painful recovery. So I get to the end of the year 2020, and I'm like, I'm out of shape. And I'm like paleo keto cardio. I don't know why I gotta get in shape. I gotta set some New Year's resolutions. And right as I'm thinking about it on New Year's Eve, I come across this quote by Michael Singer. And the quote is, don't let anything in life be important enough that you're willing to close your heart over it. I was like, well, that's why I'm at where I'm at. It's not because of what's happened to me. It's not because of COVID it's not because of life. It's because my heart keeps closing to my life and my people. That's why I'm here. And so I made a New Year's resolution going into 2021 moment to moment, I'll try to notice my heart closing and open it back up. And I was wise enough to put the word try into it because it's easier said than done. And I couldn't do it. And my heart would close over and over again. I couldn't get it open. And I would sort of watch the ripple effects of the impact that would have on my life. And so I was like, okay, well, I gotta start. So I started doing reading on open heartedness and how to keep your heart open. And I mean to not let anything be important enough that you're willing to close it. And even Singer himself is like, didn't give any instruction. He just says in his book, over and over again, relax and release.

He's tricky like that, isn't he? He just, he loves to get you into this state. And it's like, but how? And, but how? Yeah, I spent months, you know, it's so cool that you mentioned I spent months going and sitting with him in person in his temple of the universe and. Same thing. But it was always like, but how?

Oh, you're the third person now that I know who has gone down there to the ashram in Florida and said, okay, but how? His answer is, you just do it. You just do it. Just relax and release it. And I often say he sort of like the, he's the math savant who, like, you know, calculus comes so easy to him. He can't even teach remedial math. So I'm like, okay, if, if, if I'm going to learn remedial math, I have to come up with the curriculum. I have to come up with the, the process for learning how to keep your heart open. And really that's what I dedicated my life, my personal life and my professional life to over the next few years. And what I will tell you is that in the first year of dead that, that year of 2021, dedicating myself to that pract transformed my life. It was actually that year, it was in the middle of practicing open heartedness that I decided to close my practice. I was in a conversation with one of my employees. I was on the phone. I was standing in my driveway. It was still Covid, so we weren't in person and I was on the phone audio, and we were talking about something. I could feel my heart closing. I could just feel that like, I don't want to participate in this. I don't want this. And right there in the driveway, I opened my arms, took a deep breath and just said, what if you just experience this the way it is? And this voice inside of me said, let it die. And I knew immediately it was the practice. I'd known that for a while and I'd been ignoring it. So opening my heart had allowed this wisdom to sort of come into the moment that I had been keeping out of the moment. And anyways, it transformed my life professionally. It transformed my life personally. By the end of the year, my daughter and was saying things like, yeah, dad, that's why every time something went wrong on the way to Mexico, I looked at you and felt calm like that my presence in, in my relationships had changed. And, and so I'm like, I, I think I've. You know, the thing I've always hesitated with regard to business is do I really want to embrace something so much that I tether myself to that work for the rest of my life. Like, you know, what if I want to write about this? What if I want to write about this? And when it came to open heartedness, it's like, no, this is what I want to communicate to the world forever. In a way, I believe there's no bottom to what you can learn in the practice of open heartedness. So it's not like it's a dead end journey for me. It goes deeper and deeper. And so I started working on the book and the subset got shifted to that clear focus. And so right now, right now I have an email in my inbox saying, hey, review the back cover copy for the Road Less Triggered. And that book lays out the nine step process for keeping your heart open and navigating triggered moments in ways so that they don't create conflict, but they actually lead to deeper connection. And it's awesome to get to watch the Tribune substack. Kind of like they've been digging, they've shaped it with me over the last year and a half and to be hearing the feedback of like, this happened and it was, it ended up totally different because of this. So I, I, you can tell how excited I get about it. Yeah, but that was, that was, I mean, one of the biggest pivots in my life was that New Year's Eve and that New Year's resolution. And now it's my, my, my, I'd say my, my primary spiritual practice. Every day is moment to moment. I'll notice my heart closing and try to open it back up.

Yeah, it's beautiful. And, and just the way you said it, because it's so connected to our message because in a way, like, it was like a business experience, right? Like you're on a call, talking with someone and sometimes we hold those things so separate. Like the hard thing, spirituality is right here. And then the business, the performance, like the making money is right here. And for me, and I can tell for Phil as well, like we learned that like, everything is connected, right? And the minute you like, oh, I'm gonna open my heart, if it's for a relationship, it's for your business. Like all the rest gets impacted, right? And if you can serve from your heart, it doesn't mean that the path, and maybe you can even talk about it, like, it doesn't mean it'll be easier. But just, I don't know if that's satisfaction is the word, but the feeling of, like, this is where I'm supposed to be. Like, this is, you know, I could dedicate the rest of my life. And I can say that just like peacefully because I know it's seeing me. I think there's no price. I was just curious like because the mind, at least from my experience, my mind goes nuts. And right now I have the ability to watch like some of the decisions that I'm like following my heart, that doesn't fully make sense. And then in that moment, like if I would ask other people, they would probably say like, are you crazy? So like how do you deal with that? You know, like you, you feel and then you, you get that. And then what about your mind? Like how is it that conversation, heart.

And mind, that's really good. Um, in my experience, if you rely solely on the mind, you end up in a little bit of paralysis by analysis. Because the mind can generally generate a pretty equal, you know, the pros and cons list, the proverbial it can. When you're, when you're afraid or unsure, it can pretty much serve to keep you in paralysis. And so for me, I think the word that came up when you were talking about it was alignment. Like you're moving into this greater sense of alignment. Your by degree is discovering who you are, what you're passionate about, what you value. You're actually working that out through your evolving business approach. And so for me like this year, my word for the year was intuition. It was, I'm beginning to learn through this practice of open heartedness, what sort of like the signature of intuition in my body. Like when I know what it feels like in my body, I know what it feels like in my mind when my intuition is clear. And my goal is to honor that intuition above and beyond sort of any mentation, if you will, you know, because that, that mental, that mental thing will sort of can go all sorts of different ways. And what's interesting is like my mind can be afraid of a direction, but if I, but my intuition feels very calm about it, if that makes any sense. So I can be anxious and peaceful.

About it at the same time.

Right. It just depends on where you're currently locating your sense of self. If it's up in the mind, you're probably going to be anxious and uncertain about it. And if you're down here in the body and in your soul, you're going to be at peace and feel in alignment about it. So that's been my journey this year is to try to sort of locate as much of my decision making and living from that, that embodied aligned place and, and follow my intuition even when My brain is kicking and screaming.

Yeah, yeah, that's great, Fila. I'll give space for you, but I have, like, a lot of questions.

No, go right ahead.

Yeah, I just, like, because the name of your. Your substack is like the last trigger tribe, right? And. Well, I like, my background is a little bit, like, energy work, but I've studied a lot of, like, how the nervous system work and how to regulate. That's not taught alone. Right. We have some postures and breath and all of the things that can bring a sense of safety to your system. And the way I see and I'm relating to the name of your substack is the less triggered you are, the more your ability to discern between the voices. Right. Like, would you. And then another thing that I read about one of the articles that you wrote is like, oh, I thought I was connecting, but I was protecting. Right. Can you just share a little more? Because I feel that, like, we live in constant, like fireflight, and we don't realize that the physiology that we are in influences our ability to perceive. Like, is it coming from my mind? Is it like, if you're in fight or flight, like, your heart will never open, right? So, like, if you. If you're not in the right physiology, like, you're gonna find all the reasons why for protection, which is, you know, so can you just talk a little more in, like, how, like, you know, your ability to be less triggered or your intentions to be less triggered will help you to increase your intuition or your ability to follow through.

Yeah, that's a really good question. And I really like your point that if your nervous system is triggered and activated, you'll never be able to open your heart, basically. So I call it. The curriculum I create is the peaceful pivot process, I call it. And it's got three parts. And the first part is just learning how to get calm is learning how to bring your nervous system back to neutral. Because if your nervous system is activated, it's telling your mind you're in danger. And now your mind's job is to get active in the service of trying to protect you. Right? And oftentimes making the situation worse in the process. So, number one, how do you learn to use your bodily signals, become so familiar with them that you actually get really early warning signs that you're about to be triggered. So it gives you a little bit more space to start to watch your brain kicking into gear and learning, as you said, to sort of there's thinking and then there's awareness, right? And Learning to sort of inhabit that space of awareness where you're watching your defensive thoughts starting to kick in, you're watching your self protective thoughts starting to kick in and then choosing to not act on them. That's how you create the powerful pause. I see what I want to do and I'm not going to do it. And instead I'm going to take this space and this energy to get myself calm, to regulate my nervous system, to get grounded, to get back in my body rather than in my head. And now you've created an opportunity to do something different in the moment. You've created the opportunity to listen to your soul. Right. To tune into bat. Rather than that protective ego, you've created the opportunity to reconnect. What we often do is we get it out of order. We think I'm going to connect with you, to calm myself down in here. And it's worked zero times in human history. I think that trying to go through someone else's thoughts and feelings and beliefs about you in order to get yourself calm and so taking that ownership to get yourself calm and then thinking about how you reconnect. And one of the things that I have discovered when I start to talk to people about open heartedness, they often think I'm talking about weakness. They often think I'm talking about directionlessness. Right. And one of the things I'll tell them is that, you know, open heartedness isn't, it doesn't make you weaker, it makes you wiser. Right. This is about getting to draw upon all of the best stuff going on in you in order to make decisions and decide intentionally how you want to show up to your life, to your business, to your people, versus having your protective ego mind kick in and decide for you how you're going to show up. So you're sort of taking power back in terms of how you're showing up to your life. And that's not weakness, that's wisdom.

Yes. We should clip that and coffee and taste as a reminder. Right. I love that. Thank you.

Yeah. So kind of like tying into probably everything you were just speaking about. You know, one of the things that we attempt to convey to our audience is that it's perfectly normal to have these feelings of fear and resistance come up, especially when you're, you're moving forward with this meaningful work and especially if you're kind of choosing to follow the heart and kind of, you know, not listening to the mind in certain situations. But then people start to feel like, almost like, or experience that if they're having that come up that it's like something's gone wrong. And then there's this almost this feeling of retreat. And so. So I'm just curious how you relate to that. And in your personal story, it could be, you know, in my experience, we all have things that are rearing their heads now and then, of course, in our past, but just where has that shown up for you? And, you know, what has your personal work been to kind of keep yourself moving forward when maybe it would have felt easier to turn back, you know, at a pivotal point.

Yeah, that's good. And maybe what you're getting at is that the fear reaction or instinct is built into us. It's our survival instinct. It's there for a reason. Like, you wouldn't be here if you didn't have that reaction. If you all of a sudden you stumble on the edge of a cliff, right. And you become fearful and want to move backwards. You know, you don't want to ignore that and be like, actually, I'm going to follow my intuition to, you know, step out, let's go. Yeah, right. Like, it's a. It's a healthy, normal, natural, and we should even be grateful for that fear reaction. But resistance often masquerades as fear. Right? And resistance. I owe a debt of gratitude to Steven Pressfield for that. That term and understanding what that means. You know, he talks about resistance as this, like, almost personified force. That is. Yeah, there it is.

The war of our. We're still on the same page with our reading.

Yeah, we are, man. Well, I'm going to read. Here's a quote from the rule of thumb. The more important a call or action is to our soul's evolution, the more resistance we will feel toward pursuing it. Right?

Yes.

And so this is how I try to parse that out. And I think it's. Actually, I wrote about it today on Substack, and I gave a pithy example. Say your wife says, hey, after you pick up the kids, can you pick up bananas on the way home from the store?

Right.

So you go to the store, and while you're there, you remember that you need milk, too. So you're trying to decide between organic and regular and the cost. And then one kid pulls another kid's hair and you're like, ah, just get organic. And you run out of the store. You get home 10 minutes later, and your wife looks in the bag and she's like, where's the bananas? And you get triggered. Right. You feel that little tightening, that little flip down here, that little thickening in the gut. Right. It's actually your nervous system is activating. Here's the thing about that, though. Your nervous system is designed to activate when you're in existential danger. That's it. That's when it's supposed to activate. When your life is being threatened, that's when it's supposed to activate. All your wife asks is, where are the bananas? Right. So in that moment, you can go, okay, I'm being triggered by something more than meets the eye here. My body is starting to act like I'm being confronted by a tiger on the Serengeti, but I can just go get bananas. And so that's when we have to start to slow down and say, there's something more going on here. And when I think when it comes to pursuing our passions and our business vision, we can ask ourselves, am I experiencing a legitimate nervous system activation to an existential threat to my wellbeing, or am I being triggered by something else going on here? And if it's something else going on, usually resistance is a part of that. And, boy, if I really want to do something and there's no existential threat going on and I feel an enormous amount of resistance to it, I follow what Steven Pressfield says and go, this must be exactly the path I need to go down. Right? That happened with this book. I felt more resistance writing this book than I have felt doing anything in my entire life. And you're sitting here. You know, I'm sitting here. There's. My keyboard's right here, and there's a blank page, and my nervous system is acting like I'm about to get eaten by a tiger. Yes.

Isn't it crazy?

It's crazy. Like, that has got to be resistance. Which means it must be really important for me to write this book. More important than anything else I've ever written. Right. So that's sort of how I parse it out. Are you about to be existentially destroyed? No. Then that nervous system reactions about something else.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful because it's. It is challenging your identity. Right. But it's. There's nothing physically. Like, there's nothing that's gonna happen to you. And if you just. If you can just sit with that resistance, and then, like, I'm gonna feel everything that I need to feel, and I'm gonna follow through. That's how you kind of, like, move forward in a. In a powerful way, and it connects to something that I read that it wasn't an awesome article that you wrote that you Said like, I don't remember the title, but was like solving multiple problems with one solution or something which is connected to the pattern. Right. And we said and it's connected. Like those are, those are patterns. Those are stuff that, from your past, from your life that triggers. That's not connected to your, you being like physically in danger. And one thing that we always say to our clients and to our audience is you don't have business problems, you have pattern problems. And I've never really saw anyone else saying the way. And I connected like the way we talk to our, our group and our community and this. I'm like, well, if you're being triggered like by showing up on substack, by being consistent, by being disciplined, by, you know, sharing authentically like or. And you are not being able to connect or anything, it's not a business problem, even though you think it is. Even though you think you need to change strategy. So can you just talk a little more? Because it's, it was the first time I read someone else saying like in a different way. But it's, it's so connected to our message.

Boy. And one thing I often say is there's no relationship problems. There's only individual problems that get worked out in relationships. Right. You're sort of saying the same thing. There's like, there's not a business problem, there's a pattern problem that's getting worked out in the business. Yeah. I think the, the concept that you're talking about, it's the fourth step in the, in the nine step process. And it's this idea that we think we have a lot of problems to solve because my wife triggered about the bananas and then when she said that thing in front of our friends the other night and then, you know, and I'm a business partner, does obviously doesn't appreciate me and my kids are so disrespectful. I'm getting triggered in all these different situations. And what I learned going through the process and in, in the process of discovering how to be open hearted is that most of us don't have like a dozen or dozens of different situations to solve. We've got one pain point, usually maybe two, but usually one pain point that is sort of underneath the hood of all of those different moments. And it's a single pain point. And if we can learn how to navigate that pain point consciously and in a way that's healing to us, then we will start to see that our pattern is driven by that pain point, not by the people, not by the problems. Not by the situations, by that pain point. And now our pain point is something we can actually effect. Right. We can actually do something about that. It's internal to us. And so there's a lot of liberation and simplicity in discovering, oh, that's my pattern. This pain point shows up in all these different places.

Yeah. And it also comes responsibility. Right. Because now you own it. Like, you can't now. Like, it's you that did that to me. Like, it's the market that's not. Well, it's the substack that is changing. Like, now it's like, coming back to you and like, okay, so what you gonna do about it?

Well, and what's interesting is that business people, entrepreneurs are generally pretty well known for taking personal responsibility. And so one of the ways that they can know that they're triggered is that in their triggered moments, all of a sudden they're assigning responsibility to everyone else. Right. And so, okay, that's. I'm triggered. I'm. I'm. I'm deviating from my value of personal ownership. And so now what's going on underneath that. That I feel like. And a lot of it is your whole life has been arranged to avoid this pain point. Right. And so I want to, like, in that moment, your pain point and the ego designed to protect that pain point wants you to focus on everything around you and doesn't want you to go internally at that moment. So the moment that you do, that's the pattern you're overcoming is the tendency to go outward when you're hurting rather than inward. And. And now you've taken ownership of it, you can actually do something about it.

Yeah.

Yes.

Well, there's one other kind of shifting a little bit and one other topic. And, you know, I think it'd be interesting just as someone who has put themselves out there in the public eye has been growing a substack, which, you know, our folks aren't just doing substack, but it's. It's been a great place for people to be lately. And I'm just curious, like, as a, as the part of you that identifies as creator, like, how do you. What is your kind of approach to kind of meaningful, authentic connection as we kind of find ourselves in this online world and, you know, what advice might you give for someone who, yeah, just feels like they have a lot to share and they want to be kind of putting themselves out there more consistently?

It's a good question. Well, I mean, I think we've already talked about it a little bit that the Resistance will never go away. In fact, it might increase as you get closer and closer to kind of alignment with what you're here to do. The resistance will go up. So, you know, I read a story about Stephen King publishing a book at 72, and Tabitha, his wife's reading the manuscript in the passenger seat next to him, and he's like, finally. He's like, what do you think? He's feeling vulnerable still. I mean, one of the most successful.

Authors, and this is Stephen King.

Yes, Stephen King. That's going to continue. It's not going to go away. Um, I would say. I would say consistency is king in terms of nurturing online relationships. And I don't mean that in like a. You need to be on social media every day. I mean that in, like, you pick your cadence that's in alignment with you and who you are and your business structure, but then honor that. You know, like, if this is. These are relationships, even though you may not see some of these people, you may not meet them, they're here, and they're therefore in relationship with you. So if you only showed up sporadically and inconsistently to your kid's soccer game, what would they do? They'd start to emotionally wall off. They would know that they can't depend upon you. And so to sort of honor as that level of relationship and that regularity, consistency, predictability is important. Now, I'm saying that literally exactly one week after I missed a Wednesday for the first time since February. So you also have to honor your limits and deal with your realities. But I think deciding what does consistently showing up in relationship to your listeners, audience, readers, look like, how do you want it to look? And then doing that and then letting it evolve like everything else.

Right.

But I think that's an important piece of it is just to remember. And I try to. I had a couple of new subscriber notifications come through today. I try to pause for 10 to 15 seconds every time that happens and recognize that this is a human being who is working their can off to make their life better, to make their life more meaningful. And they're going to spend a sliver of their time with you hoping that you'll help them do that and just to sort of honor the reality of the relationship that just started there. So that's. I guess that's the. That's the gist of it for me.

Yeah, I love that. That's something that we talk about a lot, too, which is like. We call it, like, kind of remembering the one because it's like, you know, even as your list grows, like, it's just remembering there's that one person that's right there in front of you and just treating it as sacred in that sense.

Right.

And I really love the example you just gave of the pausing. You know, there was someone else I saw here on Substack that they, you know, during a launch or something, they were putting, like, the names of the people that were signing up, you know, right above their screen so they could see. And I love that as well. And, yeah, and, like, it's just so important and really easy to lose sight of that. And then it's. And, you know, I. And, you know, especially folks that are just kind of getting started, I actually will go as far as to tell them or remind them that I actually believe that the intimacy that they can create when they're at that early stage is actually a competitive advantage. And if they can keep hold of that idea as they think about their. How they relate and how they show up and then hold onto that as they grow, you know, there's, you know, it's all gonna. It's all gonna work out just perfectly, you know, but, you know, it's so easy to kind of just, you know, people look around, they're like, oh, well, they're. They have 15,000 followers or whatever, and, you know, they must be doing something different. I don't know. But, yeah, I just really like this idea of just one person. One person. One person, you know, in every aspect of the business.

It's funny you say that. I haven't thought about this in a while, but in my very. It was back when Google Hangouts was a thing. That's how I. That's the platform I used for my very first, like, video kind of connection. And the very first one I hosted, one person showed up. You know, her name was Deb. I still remember Deb. And that was incredibly meaningful. And now, you know, 30 people, 40 people show up on a given meeting, but that doesn't diminish their value and their meaningfulness in that moment. And likewise, 15,000 on an email list doesn't do it either. So just trying to make sure that we stay in that space where each of these connections has its own value.

Yeah, yeah. And it's another thing, like, people that are just getting started with groups. I feel like one of the reasons people don't go there is because of that ego. That's like, oh, something's going to go wrong if just that one person shows up on the Google Hangouts. But then it's like, no, that's awesome. And don't forget, if someone is there to be with you, nobody's going to be disappointed that there's less people in the room, because that's just more interface, more direct. Direct contact. And so I always tell people, don't let that be the thing that gets in the. Don't. Don't feel like, oh, I can't start this thing till 40 people show up in the room because I'm going to look like a fraud or an imposter or an expert. Just like show up and serve. And it's going to grow from there.

Yeah, I think that is it. It's like I'll be exposed as the fraud and the imposter. I think just get that out of the way. Yeah, we all have that. We all worry.

Be the fraud. Yeah, I'm a frau.

I'm an imposter. Exactly. Yeah. That's like when I'm doing a public talk, I will. If. If I. If I can't get myself to the place emotionally and spiritually, when I. By the time I get up on stage where I know I'm okay the way I am and that this doesn't have to be anything other than what it is today, I will. I'll own it. I'll start off the talk going, boy, I'm an imposter syndrome today. And as soon as you say it, you're not anymore. Right.

And then it goes away.

Yeah. And then everybody else in the place is like, oh, God, good. He is too. Right? So, yeah, just not alone.

Yeah, yeah.

Owning that reality can be powerful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, yeah, I know I want to be respectful of time. I want to give a little space here, too. Just. Hey, if there's anyone listening that does have a question for Kelly here that wants to chime in, please feel free to do so. But also, just for you, Kelly just, you know, would love for you to share, kind of if anyone's been listening along, either with us live or on the replay, they've gotten curious about something you've said about your work. I know you're here on Substack. That's probably the easiest thing. But what would be a great starting point for them to kind of explore a little deeper with you?

Yeah. Yeah. Drkellyflanagan.substack.com the less triggered Tribe is the name of our community. That's a great place to start. In the last couple years, I've gotten really clear that this message of. Of owning our triggered moments and Learning how to live open heartedly into our lives is the message that I want to be able to reach everybody with. So I've really set things up so that anybody at any level of investment can have access to what I do. Like my Wednesday, my weekly Wednesday posts. They're free to free subscribers, so anyone can benefit from that. Obviously you can buy a book of mine, costs a couple bucks. You can go up to the paid level of subscription and get access to our monthly trainings and videos and, and that kind of thing. So we all are welcome and it doesn't take any sort of financial investment to really start to dig into the ideas and concepts. If you're interested more in the things beyond substack, like speaking and some of the coaching that I do and those sorts of things, then DrKellyFlanagan.com, Dr. KellyFlanagan.com is where I'm located outside of substack, so feel free to drop by there and there's a place to contact me there as well. So you can always drop me a line there. Yeah.

So we'll make sure that all the appropriate links get, get shared with the recap. So it's.

And because I, because I need to get into this mindset, it's still a little ways out the road. Less triggered releases on March 3, 2026. And if you are part of my substack by December, you'll get the announcement of like $350 worth of free bonuses for pre ordering it. They're actually really good bonuses. I'm very excited about them. So yeah, drop by the. And you'll get that.

So they just need to join your members. There's not like a specific sign up for us.

Just join the membership. Yeah. In December will finally be my time to sort of roll that out to everybody and announce it. So as long as they're in the free level of membership, they'll get that. They'll get that notice.

Cool. Well keep us posted on how we can help. We would love to support you. I love your message and if there's any way we can support the book. A book is something that's on our inspirational list as well. And, and we've been learning a lot about. Yeah. Everything that goes into that. So if there's any way we can, we can support you. We'd love to, love to do that.

Awesome. All right. Likewise. Likewise. I love what you're doing here. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. Well, my last question for you is just because we're on a roll here like this so it was. We interviewed Ryan Levesque. He introduced us to Matt Sprang and now Matt has introduced you or introduced us to you. And so all quality, high level humans. And yeah, I would just love to know if there's anyone you could think of that you know, that would be a good fit for coming on. And of course, if you're willing to introduce us, that's bonus points. But anyone that just comes to mind.

Well, I think we'll just keep it in the front row dad's tribe. All those guys, all of us are connected in front row dads. So one of my. So it's a good friendship that I've established in front row dads. His name is Mike Wagner and he knows Matt and Ryan as well. And he, he actually just launched a new business. So he's in the next iteration of what he does. I mean, he's a guy who, he started out as a physical therapist, got out of that and got into running a business of running storage units. Then he evolved that into a mastermind where he teaches people how to, to do, to do that for a living. And he's exited that and now he's starting his own coaching business called Feeling Better Dot work. So, yeah, Mike would be a, I mean, especially at this moment where he's just made a new pivot, I think would be a pretty cool guy to talk to. And he's always just a fount of wisdom. I love talking to him every time I have a chance. Cool.

Mike. Mike Wagner.

He said Mike Wagner. Yeah. And I can give people's information. He's. He is, he is here on Substack. I don't know that he's got an active substack, but he's definitely a reader, so. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Really, really grateful to have you here with us. It's been a wonderful conversation. We, yeah, you may have seen him, but we'll put out a recap app. We'll share it with all our people and we'll, you know, we'll send you that link as well in case it's something you feel like sharing and we'll do. Yeah, we're just.

Yeah.

Really appreciate you. So thank you for being here with us.

Likewise. Blessed to have this conversation with you. I hope we have other chances to connect because I feel, I feel blessed by this conversation. I'm, I'm walking out of here in a better place and mindset. So thank you guys.

Yeah, yeah, maybe we can maybe find a time offline to connect a little more.

I love that cool.

Yeah. So it's very nice to connect with you. Have a beautiful day.

Day.

Bye.

Thank you.

Ciao. Bye.

It.