From Masculine Drive to Balanced Living: A Conversation with Phil Drolet

We're live. So welcome to Sacred Business Stories. This is our weekly substack live, where really we just have an honest conversation about what it looks like to build a business that aligns with your deepest truth. And we are really honored to have my friend Phil Jolay with us. He is a peak performance coach, athlete, spiritual teacher. He's been really dedicated, really, since for as long as I've known him, to helping people rise into their highest potential, whether that be physically, mentally, and spiritually. And yeah, just a note about Phil. This is a special interview for me because him and I met at a very kind of pivotal time in my career. I think it was around 2016 or 2017. It was actually right before, I think, I had launched my first consulting business. And so I was still kind of figuring things out for myself. And he was a source of great inspiration. He actually connected me with who a mutual friend of ours, Mark Angelo Popola, who became my first coach. And it's just a huge part of my story, kind of from where I started to where. To where I am today. And so I have a lot of great gratitude towards Phil for everything that he shared with me. And, you know, I've had some time to. I've had the honor of spending some time on with him. With him on retreat and. Yeah, just really happy to have him here. And I know he's been off social media probably for like seven or eight years, so actually we haven't had a chance to really catch up. So I'm really curious to hear how he's been spending that time and. Yeah, just to have a cool conversation. So thank you, Phil, for. For joining us today.

Thank you. Super happy to hear that. And it feels so good to hear you share that because it's just another testament to, like, when we're just doing good work and being ourselves. Like, it genuinely touches people and changes lives. And I'm like, oh, it's so cool to hear and feel that. So thank you for expressing it.

Yeah, yeah, I. Well, I'm meeting you right now, Phil, and I'm very excited about this conversation. And at the beginning of our sacred business stor, I always like to remind ourselves and remind our people listening to us, like, why we do this. And it's basically for inspiration. Like, when we see people doing cool things, like, we kind of, like, give permission to others to give cool things. And when I talk about, like, cool things, is it. It's that thing that comes from your heart, right? That it's like the combination of all of who you are like, we say that sacred businesses, a combination of your certifications, your diplomas, your life experiences, your victories, but your failures as well. Right. And then we can actually pack that and like, oh, this is how I serve in this world. That's what we call secret business. So welcome and it's. I'm honored to have you here.

Thank you very much. Happy to be here.

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, just to kind of kick things off, you know, this is really open ended, but I would just love to kind of like, we love to just, you know, it's so often we kind of see where someone is at in the moment and you know, the fancy picture they put on Instagram or something like this, but we don't know the story of how they got to where they are. And so I would love it if you would just kind of share a bit about your journey from kind of where you got started and to where you are today. And I know right before this you shared you're kind of going through some pivots of your own even now. And so, yeah, it would just be great to kind of hear a little.

Bit about your story for sure. And it's always an interesting question because I'm like, oh my God, there's so many things that happen in my life. What do I tell in three minutes? But just to kind of give the high level points. Grew up as an athlete here in Quebec, Canada, and was very much on this like, work hard to succeed kind of mentality. So when I transitioned into entrepreneurship early in my 20s, I took that same mindset like, okay, I might not be the smartest, I might not be the best looking, whatever, but I believe I can work harder than anybody and I can push myself further. Like, that was my edge. So I did that and it worked. But after a few years and experiencing some degree of success, kind of realized like, oh, wait, there's a problem to that approach. Because the price we pay is like our own health and sanity and just well being. So I think I was, I was 28 at the time and had built a successful personal development company and from the outside was looking like, wow, living the dream, all that. But I start to wake up every morning with this ball of anxiety in my stomach. Like, literally from the moment I would open my eyes, just like anxiety and this feeling of like, oh, shit, there's so much to do today. How am I going to handle all this? It's going too fast, it's too much, but I can't stop. And for anybody who's ever experienced that like, it's really rough. And, you know, this is like circa 2013, 2014, when this whole conversation about mental health wasn't as advanced as it is today. So one thing led to another. Did a couple plant medicine journeys and just realized, like, I have learned to build success solely using masculine energy. Discipline, effort, pushing myself, structure. And there's a whole other side to this equation, the feminine side, intuition, flow, creativity, et cetera. And right now I'm like, completely out of balance. And if I'm going to be a full spectrum human, if I'm actually going to like, be able to have a sustainable career in life, I need to learn the other side. And thus began a very deep and continuing to this day journey of, oh, what is feminine energy and how does it live inside of me and how do I balance it with my more masculine traits? So end up spending a lot of time in Peru, actually, where you guys are. Actually, Cusco was one of my jumping points to go to the Sacred Valley and other places like that. And yeah, I really humbled myself to realize that. I think all of us come with a predisposition towards more masculine or feminine energy. And life will kind of force us, or at least strongly invite us to cultivate the other side so we can be more balanced. And that's been very much a part of my journey for the past decade. Through that, I've also been coaching CEOs of companies one on one, and mostly helping them with their own mindset, their own leadership, but also that, like, to balance their own energy so that they can be as effective and as sustainable in their work as possible. So, yeah, a million other things happen in between, but I'll leave it at that for now. That's kind of the overarching story of my life.

I love your share and I feel that it's so connected to, well, one hour message at Sacred Business, but also like our personal beliefs that we need to find this balance. Right. And as you said, like, some people, they have way more the masculine, some people, way more the feminine. And I'm just curious, like, when did you realize that that was what was lacking? Like, you know, like, because sometimes you kind of like, oh, I'm taking a lot of action, I'm doing this. And like, you were successful. And then like, how was like the. When was the moment that you're like, oh, it's the feminine that's missing, like, what was the trigger in your life? Or if there was like a moment that like, you realized that that was the missing piece?

Yeah, there's A very specific moment, and it's. It's pretty hardcore. One of my friends invited me to do a DMT ceremony. And for those who don't know, D is the strongest psychedelic in the world. I actually didn't know that until, like, 10 minutes before I left my house to go. And I Googled it and I was like, oh, my God, what did I sign up for? So I went anyways, took a big dose. Actually didn't even have an experience in the moment. I kind of went beyond, beyond the beyond. But when I came back, I ended up crying in the arms of a woman for, like, half an hour. Just this flood of emotion coming through me. And then I went and journaled. And obviously I was still, you know, not sober. And I started to journal and, like, it just came through me. And I wrote, like, five pages. I'm like, there's an easier way to succeed. I need to learn feminine energy. It's gonna be a whole journey. This is not gonna be easy, but it's gonna be worth it, and we gotta do it. And so that was the moment. And that was one of those, like, you can't go back. Like, my whole soul has shifted. And it's like, okay, there's no choice now. We must do this.

Yes. Yeah, that's good.

And I'm curious because, yeah, I'm just curious along your journey. It was so cool when I saw you pop back up on Instagram, because you and I haven't stayed in touch over the last few years. But I know that this thing about being off social media for some time seems like it was significant to this process that you're going through. So I'm just curious. This is more, for me personally, what that. What that journey was like, and kind of how that kind of dovetails with this conversation.

For sure. For sure. And just as a side note, before I answer, it's interesting because now I'm, like, on the other side, which is the, like, coming back to social media. And that's my old journey right now. Like, how does this work? And how do I stay sane? I'll be on Instagram. But back to the leaving Instagram part. I mean, for me, I've always believed, like, so coming from an athletics background and a swimming background, there's this notion in endurance sports that you can't be at your highest level all the time. So when we see athletes at the Olympics, for example, and we see them, like, in their peak form in order to achieve these amazing levels of performance, there's a chance that you could have seen them three months before while they're at a training camp in altitude and they're all broken down and they're exhausted. And on that day, you would have seen them, you would have been very unimpressed because they were like, in that becoming process and it's messy and it's tough and in order to become extraordinary, you need to be able to like, go into the depths and kind of break yourself down. And that's obviously the part we don't always see. And as you mentioned earlier, like, Instagram culture is more about like, yeah, showing the, the highlights and what we're doing well, and kind of like, hello, this is me. And for me there was just this deep feeling that's like, I need to like, be in private for a while and I need to go through my own process and not feel this pressure to share, to document, to do any of this stuff. And like, I just need to go into the rabbit hole, do my own thing, surround myself by good people, by nature, and just, just keep it simple. Because to go into the depth of the transformation process, like at the deepest level, yo, it's hard enough as it is without having to deal with like all the external. So for me it was, it was a no brainer and, you know, experimented with like one month off social media. At first I was like, ooh, this feels kind of nice. Came back for like a week. Then I was like, I don't know, I think I was better without. Did a three month experiment. Then I came back for like two days and then I was like, yeah, I'm done. And then I left for eight years until like two months ago.

Welcome back.

Yeah, thank you. Still, still kind of feeling into this one. But yeah, I'm here. Hello.

You should just come spend more time with us over here on Substack. It's a little bit of a more peaceful culture than over on Instagram. So this is where we are.

Well, it's so interesting because I've started like, literally was listening to something yesterday and felt like the universe was pulling me into Substack. And literally, thanks to you, I created a profile to be here. And I'm like, okay, something's happening, it's pulling me in, so who knows, maybe this will be my home too.

And, and I'm curious. Another question I have for you related to that, because I'm assuming, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming that like, business hasn't stopped over the last eight years. It sounds like you're still been coaching CEOs, which is, is a context that you were in when I, when I first met you. And so, so often we have clients that, you know, they are negotiating this and maybe they, they don't feel. Or maybe there is some truth to the fact that they don't feel that they can completely kind of separate themselves from social business, depending on their business. But I'm curious, like, how you relate to how you've continued to grow your business or keep that going, you know, without having to use these tools. Because there's so many people out there that'll tell you, like, this is the way. Like, this is the only way to do things. And I feel like perhaps, you know, that hasn't been true for years. I'm just curious if you have anything that you might feel like sharing around that.

Totally. Well, honestly, I gotta give a big shout out to God and the universe for this one, because the moment I left social media, the universe just kept bringing people my way at the perfect time, in the perfect place, like, legitimately. It's one of the most magical things I've ever experienced in my life, this idea that we can be in service and, you know, let's say I wanted 10 clients, for example, and that was the right number for me. If I had 10 clients and I felt full, I felt complete, no one would reach out to me. It would just be kind of steady state. And then. And this happened, honestly, like at least 10 times over this period. The moments which someone would leave, we would complete our work together. And I'm like, oh, I don't have, you know, I have space, but I don't have social media. I'm going to find a client within days, but more so within hours and sometimes minutes. I would get an email from like, hey, it's such and such. We used to play soccer together when we're 13 years old. I heard you do coaching. Would you like to work with me? I was like, yo, this is so crazy. And it just kept happening and happening and happening. I can't even explain it to this day. So that's why I'm like, shout out to God. Shout out to the universe. It's such a gift for me. And for that period, I really didn't need to be on social media because the right person at the right time always showed up. And I will always have the perfect number of clients for this whole period.

It's nice. Do you relate any of this relationship to God and the way you were inviting more of the feminine energy into your life? It was.

Well, actually now that you said, I'm like, oh, wow, that is a beautiful connection. All this work to learn, to receive and surrender. It worked. Oh, my God.

Yeah, it was just like a very nice. You were like. You said, like, oh, I need to invite more of the feminine. And then, well, the social media in general is very masculine. Right. It's like the out there and constant action, like, consistency and focus and messaging and all of that. And then you kind of, like, realize that. I don't know if it was even at the same time, but then you realize that, like, oh, I can build a business from masculine only, but what if I could build from both? And then you cut a big part of the masculine in terms of, like, physical manifestation of the masculine. And then the energy, like just the feminine energy just flows. It's. It was just like, for me, I was like, oh, that's so magical.

Like, you know, of course we need a woman to help see this connection. And you're completely right. That is precisely what it was. And learning, like, there's two ways to. To. To engage with life and. And to. To make love to life. In a way. There's one that's very masculine, like, I must go and, like, penetrate the world. And there's one that I can stay in my own energy, in my own frequency, in my own beauty and let it come to me. And for me, that second one feels so much better, like an easier and something I want to keep cultivating even as I'm back on social media and, you know, back playing a more masculine game. Like, let's not forget that both are possible and both can work.

Yeah. You also, like, you shared with us that you are in this period right now that you're kind of like, in the messy middle, like, in the transition period of your life. And you said that you think it's also the best time when you think that you're, like, best handling right, like, that you're more like, in your core. How do you relate that to those two energies? I'm just asking that because it's a lot of, like, what I try to help our clients with. Like, we can't just create, because we have a lot of clients that have a lot of the feminine energy, and they're overflowing in the feminine, but then it lacks the masculine, like the structure, you know, like the focus, the action, the consistency, and we need both. And that's how I see balance. So can you just share a little more how you're navigating and how you relate that to both energies? Being more in alignment with where you are right now.

I love when someone asks me a question and I don't have the answer. It's like, it's forcing me to be like, whoa. I have never pondered this, but I will do my best right now. So, yeah, I am in this kind of messy middle of, like, I feel like a chapter is completing itself, A new one is opening up. But, you know, it's like, maybe like when you love a TV show, like, one season ends, the next season doesn't start next week. It starts like next summer. And then you have to wait a few months and you're like, oh, I missed my show. It's like that. And so I'm in this kind of in between. One thing that has certainly helped a tremendous amount is like, decoupling my own self worth, my own self love with my achievements. And so that can be hard, right? If we derive a lot of our just sense of self from, like, achieving, building, creating. This in between is like, who am I? Do I even matter? Do people still love me? And I've had a few things happen over the past few years that have forced me to confront that and realize, like, oh, yeah, my worth as a human is inherent to who I am. I am a child of God. I am beautiful, like, just as I am. Okay, I can chill. And then in this in between, more from a space of curiosity and. And receptivity, like, hey, God, I'm here. I'm truly here to serve, to. To live my mission, to live my dharma. Please show me the way. And I. I will do it. And so I feel less a figure to a pressure to figure it out and to make it happen. And more like, truly to be in this kind of state of, like, prayer of listening. It's not easy all the time, like, but I think that's a much more feminine quality. And then when I receive a little bit of guidance and it doesn't come all at once, like, God will not download an entire, you know, 27 step business plan into your consciousness at once. I'll be like, here's one step. And then I think that's more the masculine. Like, cool. Thank you for that clarity. Let me go take courageous action, lean in, and then see what happens, and then repeat day after day after day.

Yeah, it's so powerful. Like, if we can sit and ground ourselves in the. Just one step is enough. I think that's the balance, right? Like, you receive and you take action. You receive and you take action. Instead of, like, needing to know, like, 47 steps you know, before taking the first one.

Exactly. I call it the cosmic scavenger hunt. You know, it's like when you're at like summer camp and you're like, go over there and you like, you find the clue and you're like, ooh, go over there. And like, we had so much fun with that. It was like the best game. Life is actually like that. We just need to learn that, to play that game as an adult, because we're living life.

I love that. Yeah, and I loved that you mentioned this kind of like, self worth and identity thing, which, like, this is a huge thing we talk about with our clients too, is like, we create. We help them create their business strategy. But then it's like, who do I have to be to stand in the center of this and you know, what needs to die and what needs to come forth. And yeah, it can just be so hard. Like, it was just taking, you know, we've talked about this before. It was taking me back to when we started this business and you know, all these like, fears and all these things that came up of like, you know, I, at the time was like, kind of identified more as this like, hardcore, like, digital marketer guy. And then I remember Carolina and I were on stage at this event in, in, in. In Austin and like, we're doing like meditations and all sorts of crazy stuff. And just the head, if, if you could have seen in my head at that moment and like, how I don't like public speaking anyway, but how unconfident I was on the inside, like, trying to move through that is just like, it's hard, you know, and so like, you know, just this. It's a real practice of letting yourself, I feel, be in that, you know, messy thing. We, we use that phrase a lot. Like, let it be messy. Because I feel there's so much gold and so much growth, you know, to be found when you open yourself up to that. So, yeah, I just love that you.

That you shared that totally. And to build on what you just shared, like, the messiness is also the dissolving of old identities. Like, okay, at some point in time you were this hardcore digital marketer guy, and then a year later, you're something else. And now you lead meditations on stage. And that's kind of weird, but it's kind of awesome too. And like, but to the ego, oh my goodness, it's super rough. So I think as we can just kind of chill and like, appreciate that we are always evolving and transforming and like, back to a more Feminine analogy. It's like there's this river of life that's flowing, and we're just flowing down the river. And our job is not to, like, hang onto the sides or try to paddle back upstream, because, you know, whatever, it was cool up there. It's like, no, it's guiding us somewhere, and we're just along for the ride. And when we choose to trust, usually it works out pretty well. And I'm sure now you look at what you're doing and what you're creating, what you're experiencing, like, oh, thank God. I surrendered to it. This is so much richer than, you know, what I was doing 10 years ago.

Yeah, I love that it looks like Karine says here, messy. Messy is being in the ooze. I like that. On your way to transform transfiguration.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. That feeling.

Yeah. So that. So that actually brings me to kind of our next question that we like to ask everyone is, like, one of the things that we like to convey to our audience is that, like, people have this feeling that, like, if there's fear or resistance, like, that means, like, something has gone wrong. And, like, what we often are trying to share with people is that this is perfectly normal. And often it can be the sign that you're on the right path. And especially if you're looking to move forward with something that is really coming from the heart or really is your. Your meaningful work and service. And so, yeah, I just love to ask you, you can relate to your past or maybe even what's going on now. Just, like, maybe, like, one. What's one area that fear or resistance kind of rears its head in your life? And, you know, how do you personally keep. You know, work with that to kind of keep yourself moving forward?

Oh, my old friend, fear. Yeah. We know each other pretty well, and it's been literally a journey of night, you know, two decades to master that relationship and to embrace it and to realize that a fear is, you know, part of the human experience, like, until we completely transcend our ego, which might not happen in this incarnation. Like, fear is part of it, but to really recognize that it's not a stop sign. It's not a. It's not danger. It's just, like a natural response of this kind of, like, human animal that we inhabit. Okay. And from there, for me, there's. There's, like, something that really, really helps me. And then I'll kind of more directly answer your question. Is I have this idea in my mind of what I call green light theory. Green Light theory goes like this. If there's a situation that makes me scared and excited, then it's a green light. I must go. And most of the best things in life, I am excited, but I'm also scared. And I've trained myself. If those two feelings are present, I must do it. Like, I, I, it's just, it's, it's, it's like when the light turns green, you press the gas and you go forward. It's like that. So, yeah, fear is there, but excitement too. And I think more specifically to answer what you shared is like, for me, what's still difficult and what I'm still navigating literally, like, right now, maybe not right this second, but in my life generally is. I don't really know where I'm going. Like, I generally can't tell you what I'm going to be doing a year from now. Professionally, like, it's unclear. I feel like it's being revealed, like, little bit by little bit. And for my ego, that is kind of terrifying. It's like, oh, will I really be helped? Will this really work out? And I know deep in my heart and especially when I'm in meditation, I'm like, of course it's gonna work out. Like, it's worked out for 39 years. It's not gonna stop now. But this uncertainty, this unknown, this lack of clarity is difficult for me as an athlete. I love having a goal like, okay, the big race is in three months. Here's the training program. Here's how we're going to go about it. I can see the whole thing, and that really comforts me. But not like all life is like that. It's on a chapter. I'm like, I don't know, but maybe there can be beauty enjoying that too. So that's, that's the dance I'm in.

It's very interesting. Like, we were participating at a retreat a couple of months ago, and I kind of had, like, a similar question to you. And, and, and I think maybe you're gonna resonate with that. Because it's funny how life keeps showing us that we are safe, right? Like, you had so many proofs in your life. Like, you had no social media. Probably you're, like, lost here in Cusco somewhere. And then people would still find you. You can hide, but, like, whatever you need comes your way when you're open. And then even if you have, like, all the proofs in the world and life is always showing you that fear is always there. And that was the question for, like, the Teacher. And I'm like. I'm like, if I just look back, like, I know I never had, like, anything lacking in my life. Everything shows up in exactly the right time. But why this thing keeps showing up? Like, why I still, you know, doubt myself? And then his answer was so beautiful. He was like, you just need to keep moving from gathering to gathering. So it's like when we are not in the present moment, you know, And I'm like, oh, yes. It's like we only face the fears and we only invite fear when we are, like, far ahead. Like, when you think, like, in one year from now. And then you're just talking right now. I'm like, yeah, we have so many proofs that, like, life is perfect and it's like, abundance all the time, but the mind keeps, like, protecting. And I just remember this because for me, was a huge realization. Like, I try to bring myself to the present as much as I can, but often the mind goes crazy. And you're like, okay, come back here. And that was his message. Like, just move gathering from gathering. You know, after lunch, it's another gathering. And then you go to the bathroom, whatever, it's another gathering. And then you go to take a nap, it's another gathering. And if you keep just moving like this, then, you know, there's never anything for you to worry about. And I'm like, oh, that was, like, powerful.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's interesting hearing that. I feel so inspired. And I almost feel like crying as well, because I'm like, it's so tragic. Like, I've been so blessed in my life, and God has been so good to me again and again, and still I don't trust.

I'm like, what part of me that's like.

I'm so sorry. And, you know, I've thought about this a lot because I observed my own experience. Like, but why is it like this? And my theory on this is, like, we are kind of one of the first generations in human history and, like, spanning hundreds of thousands of years, where it's, like, it's genuinely safe for us now. Like, we are so lucky. Like, here we are talking to this magical technology. We're all in these, like, you know, relatively beautiful spaces and all is well, and we can actually, like, start to relax. But even, like, going back 50 years ago, a hundred years ago, I think about my ancestors here in Quebec. Like, winter is still kind of rough, and now we have, like, all the luxury and comfort in the world. My ancestors, a hundred years ago, 300 years ago, like, to survive winter was heroic. It was literally harder than anything we do nowadays by, you know, a long shot. And I think our nervous system just hasn't caught up. Like, we are kind of that first generation where we're teaching our nervous system that, like, oh, wow, I'm actually good. I'm actually good. But we can change our consciousness, and the consciousness is kind of like. It's more like ether. It changes quick. But the body, the nervous system, it's dense. It takes longer to change, and that's what we're all trying to do. But, yeah, it doesn't happen overnight and doesn't happen in ayahuasca. Ceremony takes a little while. So here we are. But we're changing that. And the more we do it, the easier we make it for all our brothers and sisters now and to come.

Yes, I agree. Can you read that?

It's so hard to read on this thing. I think we came here to play our soul game and for some action. And for some action, we take with us a stubborn ego. Yeah. Shame on us all for. For being human, I suppose. Yeah, definitely. Well, and you're right.

And that the. The. The soul game, the challenge makes it fun, right? Like. Cause sometimes I'm like, dang it. Like, why can't I just, like, the.

The.

The state of clarity and conscious I experience, let's say, in meditation or while I'm in nature, when I'm like, oh, my God, everything's so clear. It makes so much sense. Why can't I hang on to this? Why does, like, an hour later, I get a text message, I'm like, fear. And to. I. I didn't know the. I don't. I didn't see the. The. The name of the person who wrote the message. But to your point, like, that makes the game fun. If we were just blissed out all the time, we would have stayed in, you know, whatever. The spiritual place where we came before we incarnated. But we came here to make the game interesting and challenging. So. Yeah. Well, here we are.

Yeah, I guess that's a nice way of seeing it. Like, the reason why we keep having those things is because we're not ready to leave this plane. Right. Otherwise, we would have been gone. So let's have more fun here while we're, you know, looking for more proofs or like, just, you know.

Yeah, just having more fun and laugh about it, too. Like, we're doing right now. Like, that's kind of healing to be like, oh, my God, this freaking human game. It's like just hard enough that it's, you know, keeps it interesting, but not too hard that we, like, don't want to play it. It's just right down the middle, so. All right. I guess it's perfect.

Yeah. It's so funny, we have this thing we say sometimes because, like, you know, we'll have these conversations around, like, 3D, 5D and all of this, and we'll say, like, how do you know you're supposed to be here? It's like, well, because you have body and that's it. And it's so simple if you think about it could also just go over your head in a way. But yeah, I wanted to actually go back to the thing you said about that. I love the term you use. I think. I think you called it green. Green light theory. Is that. Is that what you label it? Yeah. I'm curious how you came to that understanding because it very much so mirrors my experience. Like, I have the same thing and I've had this, you know, I used to have a lot of chronic pain. It's something I've been able to move past at this point, which is beautiful. But I've had this, this experience of pain. And I started to notice around fear, how I would feel this, like, fiery, like, kind of tickle in my chest. And there was just this subtle distinction between pleasure and pain, in a sense.

And.

And I started to. I don't. I'm just curious to hear how you could verbalize this if you can, because at some point it just clicked for me that, that this was kind of to your point. Like, when I would feel this come up as a fear, this was the thing to follow. And I began to start to kind of like recast that as almost like a friendly little tickle. And when I would feel this like, friendly little tickle on my chest, it was almost exactly as you described. It was like, oh, there's that tickle. Let's go. Like, this is the thing. This is the next thing I've got to go for. And I would say that in my own personal journey, that's been one of my most powerful reflections. And. Yeah, so I'm just curious if you have any more, you know, how you came to that, that understanding for yourself.

For sure. Well, I think anybody like us who's trying to create things and expand, we're gonna confront fear very quick on the journey. Like, oh, you get invited to a cool looking party where you don't know anybody. Like, oh my God, that sounds so cool. But I don't know Anybody. And then like fear comes up. It's like, okay, well the only way I'm gonna go to this party and have this experience is I must go to the fear. And oh, I want to build a business, but I've never done it before. But if I do it, I could be free and not have to get a job. Wow, that's so exciting. But then what if I fail? So it's like we have all these experiences very, very quickly. Like we notice that fear is part of the equation. And for me specifically, something I've done literally every morning for now 15 years to help me retrain my relationship with fear is take a cold shower. And initially that was a way to get off caffeine for, for other reasons. But I quickly realized that if I like even this morning I took 15 years, five times, 365, like I don't know, maybe 5,000 cold showers I've taken to this day. And every morning I go and I'm like, and there's a part of me that's scared, there's a part of me that doesn't want to do it. But having taken, you know, a few thousand of those, I know that once I go through the fear, it takes about five seconds once I'm in cold shower where my brain chemistry goes from like pain to pleasure and I go from like, oh my God, this is so cold to like, I'm so freaking alive. And then, you know, stay there for 30 seconds, turn it off, and then I feel amazing for the next four hours. So the trade off is I need to go through the sphere and I need to go through it for five seconds and I have four hours of increased energy on the other side. It's like the best deal in the world. And most things with fear are like that. The cost is much lower than the reward, but you gotta pay the cost upfront to get the reward. And so now I've had enough experiences, it's like, okay, I feel the fear, but on the other side it's gonna be so cool and exciting. Yeah, let's freaking do it. Like it's a no brainer.

I love that because I don't think I, I've had the thought the way I had right now. And you know when you feel like things skin in your brain, the way you said it, it's because I have this thing too. Like if I fear, like I know I need to go and I need to take action. And it's the, the mix between fear and excitement as you shared, but the sense of aliveness is so wonderful when you do that. Right. That it compensates. Like, I don't know if compensation is the thing, but it's. It. It's the reward. But it's.

Yeah.

Like the facing your fears bring aliveness in a way that I don't think any other thing brings. Like, when you go and you were not in that situation of, like, I don't know what's next or, you know, like, this is just like, even like, coming to, like, a new country or a new city or like a new business or a new relationship, like, everything is so new. And then there's always this fear of, like, I don't know what's gonna happen, but then that liveness that we feel in the body. And I've done cold showers for, like, many months and then I stopped after six or seven months.

But.

But the feeling of it, like the way you described was so perfect. Like, it feels so good. It feels so, like life and giving and exciting and. Yeah, thanks. I just. I'm just kind of like, reconnecting my dots here. Thanks for that.

Yeah, you're welcome. So once we see that clearly, you know, fear is something, but. And also, like, fear is just a sensation in the body. Like, it's not actually dangerous. And once we can observe that, it's like, oh, I feel fear, I feel nervousness. Okay. Like, no big deal. It's just a sensation. It has no real power over me. So I hope that everyone here, and I'm sure everyone here, has started to cultivate this relationship with fear so that it's like, it's something that we experience, it's something that's part of our reality, but it doesn't have power over us. And then we're free.

Yeah. It's liberating. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Cool. Well, another question I wanted to ask you, Phil, is one of the things, as we all navigate the modern world and, you know, social media, AI, like all this stuff, like, you know, I think one of the biggest challenges creators often face is how to kind of maintain and create like, authentic, meaningful connections while they're in kind of service of sharing their message. And so I'm just curious, like, over your path and, you know, some. Some aspects of your path have been a little bit non conventional. Like, what has your approach been to connection? What place does that play in your business and. Yeah. What advice might you have for someone who's trying to share what they offer. Yeah. More consistently.

Yeah. Well, I'll start by saying I'm feeling genuine, heartfelt connection with both of you. Through technology right now. So it works. Go technology. And on the other side of the coin for me, I really try to have a lot of good social juice in, in, in, in real life, like all the time. And I'm a huge fan of what I call micro connection. And micro connection is like I go for a lot of walks around my town and I always like say hi to people, wave to my neighbors, have a little chit chat, like, hey, how's your dog? Cool, have a great day. And I found that I get very nourished by these tiny little interactions. Just a smile, a wave, little one minute conversation. And that's like a dose of, I don't know, like serotonin to my soul, love to my heart. And that kind of rebalances us. Like, yeah, okay. The online stuff is interesting and I don't want to villainize it, especially now that I'm back on social media. But let's not forget that our nervous system will always respond probably more and more deeply to what we experience in real life because that's how we're designed. And let's make sure that we make an effort to nourish ourselves that way because the, I don't know, the connection we get exchanging text messages or comments, it does something for us, but it's not, I don't want to say it's not the real thing because it's real, but it doesn't totally fill up our cup, you know. So let's make sure that we have a healthy balance at the very least. And let's not forget the real world because yeah, it's beautiful.

It's such an important reminder because while we teach people like how to build online business and sometimes I feel that people, even for strategy and not even for the everyday life, people are so focused on how do I do this online, right? But they forget the energetics of the whole business, like is also building person, right? So like, hey, go talk to your neighbor about what you're doing, even if your neighbor is not a client. You know, go talk to, you know, go to the supermarket and talk to people about what you're doing. Whatever it is. It's just like this in person connection that I feel that the online world sometimes make us forget that exists. And it's necessary to like, as I said, like the cap will never be filled with just one, right? Like right now we have both. So we need to kind of like try to use both in our advantage.

And make sure you do the things offline that fill your soul, that jazz you up you know, when you. Let's say you go have a great dinner with friends on a Wednesday night, and it's fun, it's connecting, and you laugh and you just come home, you're like, oh, my God. Wow, that was so nice. You literally fall asleep with a smile on your face. Guess what? Thursday morning, when it's time to work, you're gonna be so much more full and clear and just inspired because your. Your cup is full. And we've also tried to work, you know, all of us, at some point, you sit down when you're empty and you try to create on your computer when you're like, empty. It's terrible at, you know, either it's not going to work or you're going to produce something mediocre. So for me, it's always this process of, like, building myself up and then, like, not depleting myself, but, like, pouring myself into creation, filling myself up, pouring myself into creation again and again and again, and make sure that the wheel's always turning that way. Yes.

Yeah, I love that. And what are you able to see any sort of connections there with kind of how these practices and even the joy and the fun and all of this, like, how. How you built your network, you know, because to me, like, it's phenomenal. And yes, we. We, you know, you know, connection with God and all of this, but, like, do. Can you see from more of the practical side, like, how any of this is connected with your ability to build your business or. Or not? There's no. No right answer. But I'm just curious about what part it's played in the. In the business side of things for you.

I think the thing that comes to me right now is just like, for my whole business journey, I've had a few really close friends who've been, you know, in their own entrepreneurial journeys, and we've been like, allies on the path and very close to each other. And Mark would be someone that would put in that bucket where it's been like, span over a decade. So, you know, forever is listening or even for ourselves. Like, who are those, you know, five people that are in our inner circle? They're doing something similar, or maybe they're not, but they're just like our sole allies. And to really keep nourishing those. Those relationships, like, for me, I don't have, like, that big of a network, I could say, but I have a few really, really good friends, and I think I take really good care of those friendships. And I think the people close to me would agree With, So it's like, I don't know. We only have so much social bandwidth, all of us. I'm a fairly introverted person. Definitely, like, need a lot of alone time and all this, so I can't be texting 50 people consistently. Like, I'm just. That's impossible for me. But I have enough juice to, like, keep, like, 5 to 10 really good relationships and to show up in a way that when they get a text from me, they're like, wow, that was so sweet. Or like, wow, that was so thoughtful. So we're all different. But my invitation is just for all of us to have a sense of how many relationships we can really honor and not to try to go that far beyond that. But those five to 10 people, man, they're so useful in our journey. It's like, I don't know, they're like angels in our lives. Really.

Yeah. And that's so cool. And that really connects back to the beginning of this conversation because I often say this and is why I so genuine when I shared my gratitude to you. Like, I. I can go back to the event where we met at Boulder. You introduced me to Marc Angelo. I ended up joining his superhero academy, going on retreat in Costa Rica. And then from there, this whole group of relationships kind of blossomed and flourished. You know, Ry Schwartz. So me and Ry became like, business partners for three years, which kind of preceded, like, this business, now a sacred business. And just those relationships similar to you, like, it's not like hundreds and hundreds of people, but it's just like that, well is deep, right? And these and the connections with those people. And so, yeah, I totally. Yeah, I totally mirror and echo your experience of the importance of this and. And making the time to nurture this. And I think this is like, also like, kind of the mythology of the Internet, right? It's like, I often tell people, like, like, people come online, they're like, oh, I'm going to come on to substack and get my first client. And I'll say, like, you know, the reality of the situation is, like, your first client is probably, like, way closer to you than that. You know, it's through the. Through the neighbor, through the person that you met at the coffee shop. It's like. And then from there, things start to ripple out. And then as you kind of start to build the business and, you know, things expand, and then the online world becomes kind of an amplifier for what you're creating in real life. But I feel that oftentimes people get that, get that backwards and they're. They're just staying in this little bubble, and I think it. It limits them in many ways.

So.

Yeah, thank you for sharing your thoughts on that.

Yeah, I totally hear you. And at the end day, like, all life is balance, right? Balance between online and offline, masculine and feminine, work and play, rest and creation, et cetera, et cetera. So anytime we go too far in the extreme, like, oh, I will only live online. Yeah, that's probably not going to work out. Like, go. Go see your neighbors. Go. Go hug your mom, you know?

Yeah. Cool. Well, you know, before we wrap up here, I want to just give a little bit of time. I don't know if there's anything you feel called to share about where you're heading with your. With your work, if. If there's, you know, if anyone has heard anything they've been inspired by on this conversation, if there's anything you'd like to share for them to check out where. I know you're new on Substack. I don't know if you have any commitment to being here. If that was just you being generous to be here with us, but, you know, anywhere that people can. Can connect with you that you might want to share, we'd love to do that. And we, you know, we share this replay out afterwards, and we'll. We'll make sure people get anything that. That might make sense.

Yeah. Well, to be honest, as we're having this conversation, I made a mental. I'm like, I must understand what substack really is, because just from what I'm feeling here, it's like. And I was lit on it last night for, like, kind of the first time. I was like, huh, like, this. This actually feels nice. It feels, like, more sane and more chill than, like, when I'm like, literally, I've, like, come back to Instagram and I'm sharing, but I legitimately cannot go on Instagram myself. My brain will not let me. So, you know, I'm on the screen right now. But Substack might be my new home. I mean, I'm curious just to hear from you while we're here is like, how would you describe substack and what does it represent for you as a platform compared to the other, you know, ones that we all know about?

Yeah. So it's interesting. It was a little bit of luck. It was about a. It was about this time last year, October of last year, A friend, a fellow marketer on Facebook, posted something, and he was like, substack's awesome. It's A super calm, chill place to be, and it's a happy community. You should check it out. And something clicked that I should do that. And at the time, you know, this business was. Well, we were about a year in, we had about 1200 subscribers. Most of that was just like kind of carry over from relationships, from past, past relationships and things like this. And I don't know, it just instantly clicked. And, you know, we've been really fortunate. Like, we've grown to almost 17,000 subscribers in the last year on Substack. And really, to me, at the heart of what makes a difference is it is. It does feel like community. It really feels like genuine connection. It doesn't feel. It's.

It.

I'll be honest, it's changing a little bit as more and more people come, but it doesn't feel as much like posturing. And it's really, it's really a full creator's platform, right, because you, you own your, your subscribers. So versus something like Instagram where you're completely at the, the mercy of the algorithm. When people join you on Substack here, you actually get their email. You can communicate with them through other channels. It, you know, it's definitely a community that values long form more than. No, just, you know, popcorn, TikTok style, you know, stuff that kind of makes your brain rot sometimes. So, yeah, it's just, it's been a beautiful thing, you know, for us and yeah, I'm happy to share more with you, you know, offline, if there's anything we can do to support you, if it's something you want to explore more. But really, it's been probably the biggest driver for us in the last year in terms of our ability to reach people and try to create impact in the way that we can.

So amazing. Well, I feel like this is, this is a sacred moment for me to be here on Substack. I'm like, oh, this feels so good. And I remember a few years ago, I was trying to move to California. I didn't know where I was going to move. And I just got in my car from Colorado, drove to San Diego. I was like, no, this is not it. Drove to la. I was like, definitely not it. And then I went up to Santa Barbara. I was like, oh, hopefully it's it. And I was like, no, it's not it. And someone was like, have you checked out Ojai? And I went up to Ojai, and for those who know, it's like this little mountain town, 90 minutes of LA. And I was like, yes, this is it. And I feel like since I've come back to social media, I went on Instagram, I'm like, no. I went on Facebook, I was like, no. And then people are like, but you should try TikTok. I was like, there's no way it's TikTok. There's just no way. My destiny is to be a Tiktoker. And now I'm like, ooh, maybe it's self stacked. It actually feels good. So thank you for introducing me to this.

Try it on for size, see what you feel. But yeah, we will. Yeah, we'll link, we create the replay and it'll have all the notes from our conversation. And actually because we do it here on Substack, you'll get connected to it. So you'll get an alert when that. You'll get an alert like right after this that the recording is live. But we actually produce kind of like a nicer recap. So if you want to wait for that, you'll see kind of what it looks like. And yeah, this is our favorite thing to do is to jump on and have these kind of conversations. Like if a week goes by and we don't have one of these conversations, I. I definitely feel like something's lacking in life. So yeah. Thank you again for, for being here with us. It's been, it's been really good to. To reconnect and yeah, hopefully we can continue to talk more. Um, uh, what do we have here before we wrap? Is it Corrine? Oh, completely. Coincidence. Love the conversation. Sorry guys. Substack feels good. But how, where to start? Still some hesitation for quite an uncommon business. I'll reach out to you for a 30 minute appointment next week. Awesome. Karine. Yeah, we would absolutely love to support you if we can. So definite. And yeah. And thank you again, Phil. It's the meaning of the Phils. I almost forgot. It's a fun.

Yeah.

Thank you again.

Well, thank you for having me and for anybody listening, feel free to follow me on substack. My guess if I feel to my intuition is I will start to post here and if you follow me now, you'll be from day one because this is literally day one of me being on Substack. So thank you so much.

So don't, don't just.

Yeah, that was.

Yeah, just don't. If I have one. It doesn't sound like you're going to do it, but if I have one favor, don't delete your account. Right after we had. We had Derek Sivers on this show. And he joined. He joined just to do this interview with us. He was like, I'm not staying on substack. I'm super private. And he, he deleted his substack account before we could get the replay up. And so we lost the whole thing. So anyway, it's just a funny story. It was like it was such a feat that we were able actually to get him onto the thing. And then totally on our, on our substack you could see we have this funny story about like the interview that actually happened that that didn't happen, you know. But anyway, it's just hopefully we'll.

I'm not leaving. I'm doubling down, baby. I'm gonna go write my first post. I'm coming in.

There you go.

Awesome.

My friend.

Very nice to meet you, Phil.

All right, much love, guys. Thank you. Bye.

Bye. Take care.

Bye Bye, everybody.