Sacred Business Stories With Toku McCree

Hello.

Okay, so let's get started, like, well, first, welcome to the Sacred Business stories. We are very excited to start this weekly substack live where we're going to have, like, a conversation with entrepreneurs who build, like, a business that is aligned to their truth. So today we have. And he blends ancient wisdom with modern psychology, and he helped people to unlock their potential. So, yeah, we have more people. Hello, Matt.

Matt. Matt, Good to see you, man.

Yeah, so people are, like, getting in slowly. I guess we could get started and more people will just join. Hello. Hello.

Yeah, so if you're in the comments, while we're just letting people join in, like, it would be awesome to hear where you're coming from. And I would love to also hear, like, when you hear this term, sacred business, which we talk about a lot, what is the first thing that comes to mind to you? So if you're willing to throw that in the chat, like, what comes up for you? How do you experience that phrase? Sacred business? Would love to hear in the chat. And then, as Carolina said, we will be chatting here shortly with Toku. He'll be sharing a little bit more about how he relates to his business and how he's been building a thriving coaching business while really staying true to his path. So if anyone would like to share, we'd love to hear from you in the chat.

Sacred business doesn't just mean owning, like, a crystal shop. Right? Being crystal girl, crystal shop, selling, saves. That's not what you guys. I don't think that's what you mean by owning a sacred business. Right.

Including that too. But not only that.

It could be that. It could be that, but it's not limited to that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Cool.

Yeah.

Yeah. Caroline, let's go ahead and. Go ahead and get started.

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay, so we're gonna go for our first question. Oh, sacred business means operating from a place of integrity.

Kristen is Matt's wife. Just for reference here, that's. I know, Kristen.

Sacred business. One where I'm connected to work in a meaningful way like never before in Spain. And I can't actually see who said that.

That was Rebecca. That's Rebecca.

Awesome.

I wonder if this is a little like, Facebook Live or like we're talking when the comments come in, like, a little bit afterwards because there's a bit of a delay.

Yeah, it seems like it. This is all an exploration for everyone that's here with us. This is our first time going at it like this, so thank you for being patient with this.

Josh has got A good one. Yeah.

Sacredly. Than integration with the passion of my business and personal life. Yes.

Yeah. Excellent.

Yeah. So for us, it is your ability to bring all of you forward, all your experiences, all your challenges, all your victories, all your diplomas and certification and all your trainings, and, you know, like, a combination of all of who you are is how you share in your business. So I don't know if you want to go for the first question.

Yeah, really, Like, I just want to. You know, we shared a little bit about Tokyo in the. In the bio for this live, but I'd really love to just open it up to you, Toku, and have you just very. Just share a little bit about yourself and your business.

Sure, yeah.

Why you're here.

You know, I think my business, in many ways, is an answer to, like, one of the toughest questions I asked growing up, which is sort of like, what am I. What am I supposed to do with my life? What kind of work am I supposed to do? Like, finding purpose. And I think I struggled or felt the pain of that in a big way. You know, I struggled a lot in school, and so it felt like I was always told a lot, you have a lot of potential. But I didn't really know exactly what that meant for me. And so I found myself after college with a lot of questions about what was I supposed to do and what kind of work I was supposed to do. In fact, I tried so many different jobs. Actually had 30 different jobs when I was 30 years old, because I would try a job, I would do it. Then I'd quit, I'd try another job. And I just kept on like, I can't find it. I can't find it. I can't find it. And then. So I had my first career in the music business and then left the music business when I was 27. End up living in a Zen monastery, which we can talk about. Full story. And then after that, I had this very clear purpose that I got through a meditation retreat, which is to serve those walking the path of awakening in a deep and fundamental way. And at first I thought that was a. It was an answer to a question, right? What's my purpose in life? And then I. And then I realized that actually the best purposes are actually questions. So instead of saying, this is my answer, I was like, well, how can I serve people walking the path of awakening in a deep and fundamental way? And so I started trying things out to answer that question. So I was a preschool teacher for a while, and I worked on some political Campaigns. And I was a personal trainer that did mindfulness and eventually found myself to coaching. And what I love about the work that I do as a coach is that I kind of like a sacred trickster. I like, work with a lot of executives and business owners, and I like, I want business to be better and I want my leadership to be better. And, like, secretly, I'm just tricking them into being more wise and compassionate. And so for me, my business is constant answer to this question. How do I serve people? Walking the path of awakening in a deep and fundamental way. I do it with coaches, I do it with founders, with entrepreneurs. And as I move forward in my business, I just continue to try to answer that question again and again with different projects and different ways of working. So I'll pause there. I think it's a pretty good overview of my big, long, winding story.

Yeah, I really love what you share because sometimes, well, we look for purpose. And I've seen. And I'm more connected to the idea of having an open question, and we see people looking for the answer. And now that's it, and it's over. I found my purpose, and it is a constant evolution. So the fact that you keep asking yourself, and I'm sure since we started and where you are right now, like, you're serving in a different way because you keep asking the question and because you keep evolving. So the Toku eight years ago, ten years ago, like, you know, could serve, could help people in a way. And right now, just because of the question, and I feel that that's what allows, I don't know, you can answer, like, you. To fall in love with the business over and over and over and look for different ways to, you know, to keep, like, evolving and changing.

Yeah, I mean, I think my business is a big manifestation of that purpose. But, like, the truth is, it's like I once had this intention of, like, I'd like to be the kind of person that could sit down next to a person on a bus, and when I get up, they're like, a little more awake, a little more alive. Like, how do I bring this to every part of my life? So I think we think of purpose, especially around businesses, like, okay, this is my purpose in life, is to, like, you know, help people explore their art more. Like, you guys are going to help people, like, have businesses that are more aligned with, like, their true expression or their sacred selves. And the truth is, knowing both of you, like, you're not just doing that in your business. Right. You're doing that in every part of your life and your friend connections and the places you move and the types of products you buy. Like everything you do is an expression of your purpose. So I think it's like, it's important to bring it forward in your business. But I've also discovered that like, when I have, When I see how I'm doing it in every part of my life, it almost takes the pressure off of my business to be like the only place where that's happening. And so I think that's one of the things I realized as I was at post monastery where I was kind of figuring out how to bring this version of the world. I started to realize, like, there's kind of infinite answers to that question and I don't have to find the right, like the one answer. It's like I have to just keep asking the question and finding new answers. And there's always going to be new answers.

Yes, totally.

Yeah.

And everything's connected, so we can't like. Yeah. In a way, like everything is correlated. It can't be the business only.

I would love to hear more about this whole monastery thing. I know we've talked about it a little bit, but I feel that probably many people in this call would be very curious about that because it's such a unique. Yeah, such a unique experience, I feel. So anything that feels connected for you there, that could help people.

I mean, I never had an intention to go and live at a monastery for two and a half years. That wasn't like my plan. I literally was like, I'll go for a month and see how it goes. I was like, okay, you know, worst case scenario, this is like a story I can use to like, you know, hit on hippie, hippie girls at festivals. Like, oh, yeah, I lived in a monastery. It's great. Like, I was like, that'll be a good story to tell. I love collecting good stories. But then when I went there, the experience was just so powerful. The experience of living in community of a community where it's really focused on a singular intention towards like clarifying the mind and being present with reality. It's interesting. I see elements of like that kind of feeling in Yalls community where it's like everyone's there kind of with a similar intention. Maybe not on the same path, maybe not the same expression, but a similar intention. And so I never lived in a community like that or been around a group of people who were like that. And so the challenge, the difficulty of that, of getting up, you know, we woke up every day at 4am, we meditated for four hours a day. One week out of the month, we meditate for 8 to 12 hours a day. So it's very rigorous, very intense. But there was something about throwing yourself into something that required a lot of discipline and a lot of focus. And then seeing how like all of your complaints and suffering were very self caused, that was really, really profound for me to challenge myself in that way. And I think in a lot of ways it prepared me for business because, you know, I think if you go into meditation in general, hoping to have a particular outcome, you're kind of screwed because the outcome will vary. Sometimes you're going to sit down and meditate and it's going to be like, you know, Buddhas are falling from the stars and milk and honey are raining on your body and you feel amazing. And sometimes you sit down and it's just like, my back hurts. This is boring when I'm going to ring the bell, right? And so you sit down with this practice and the results are really going to vary a lot. And so when I started my business, I feel like it was the same thing. I would get into this practice of connecting with people and talking about my services, sharing what I was doing, inviting them into coaching calls, serving them again and again and again, and the results varied. Sometimes I have amazing sessions and the people had no interest in working me. Sometimes I felt like I like totally crapped the bed and like did a horrible job and those people would want to work with me. Like, didn't make any sense to me at all. But allowing myself to commit to the practice again and again is showing up to my business and trying new things and believing that what was possible. Like, I think those two parallels were really powerful for me. And so I'm happy to answer specific questions about the monastery, but in this, in this context, I think that was what was so helpful for me, is thinking about my business like a meditation practice rather than like, I think we think of it more like it's a race where it's like, okay, I got to get here and how can I run there as fast as I can? How do I get around the obstacles? Like, it is much more like a meditation where you sit down every day and you do the best you can, you learn as much as you can, and your goal is to sit down the next day again.

Yeah. And we're going to leave a little time at the end for questions. So if anyone on this that's watching has any particular questions about his experience, anything that Toku is Sharing here today, be thinking about that and we'll give some space to that. But that actually I feel leads in quite well to the next question which is around resistance. And so something that we've been wanting to kind of convey to our audience is that it's very normal, it's perfectly normal to have fear, to have resistance around these important things that are going to move you forward with your moving forward. And I would love to ask you, and it's also from my perspective, we keep kind of up leveling and cycling through this. And so I would love to know from you what is one area that you experiences today from your perspective where you see fear, resistance showing up for you and what is the work you do so that you can keep moving forward and taking action on what's important?

Yeah, I mean, I love what, I love what Steven Pressfield says when he talks about resistance from the War of Art. It's an incredible book and he talks about this. You experience the most resistance when you're doing something of a spiritual, like higher spiritual frequency. Right. So like, you know, if I just want to like go and if I want to. We had double stuffed Oreos in the house a of couple, couple weeks ago and I noticed I felt no resistance to eating Oreos. Like it was not. Was it hard? They weren't hard to pick up. They weren't, you know, it was very easy to keep eating them like, because I was not like a high frequency activity. The Oreos are delicious. Not hitting on Oreos, but. So anything that you do that's like pushing you to up level is going to have more resistance. So almost you can use the resistance as an indicator of which direction to go in. So I think for me right now I've been in a phase for the last year and a half, maybe two years where my business is calling me to create more art. And I think that like that has been really challenging for me because I've tended to be very achievement oriented and I'm very good at like meeting, getting people on the phone and like selling coaching. Right? Like you put me on the phone with a potential client, I'll sell the crap out of them. And so selling in a way is, or enrolling is like, it's very linear, right? Like I built a whole program around this for coaches called Coaching beyond yes or no where it's like, okay, I understand how that process works. I know how to be with people. We're aiming towards a goal, I'm working with them. But there's this thing about art where it's like, it's not as direct. It's like my expression and how I want to be in the world feels really kind of squishy. It feels a little woo woo. And so it's like. And like, it's done when I say it's done. Like, the client's not saying yes or no to me. It's like, you know, the beautiful thing about enrolling a client is, like, they either say yes or no and then it's over. With art, it's like, when is it over? And I'm like, it's never, I guess when you ship it, but even then it doesn't feel over. And so that's the place I experience the most resistance is like, I feel called. I've been back to working on my main art project right now, which is this tarot card deck for coaches, which I've been posting about in substack. I've been back to working on it every day. I've got the major arcana done. I've got two suits done. I've got the suit of cops and the suit of swords done. Or suit of wands done. And I sit down every day and there's a part of me it's like, well, you really should be answering emails. You should be reaching out to clients. Like, it doesn't make practical sense. I do not think I'm going to become a tarot card millionaire. It doesn't make sense to me to do it. And yet every day that I don't start with it, my day feels like it has less energy, I feel less alive, I feel less like I'm being spoken to by God. And when I get the cards done, sometimes I get this card. I'm like, who created this card? Was it me? Like, I'm not an artist, I'm not a graphic designer. This is a beautiful card. I have people like, that's such a cool card. I'm like, I don't know how it happened. It just sort of happened. Right. And so that's the place where I experience the most resistance of, like, this conversation with my inner critic. And I've been working with my coach with this recently. Like, the challenge I have is that I tend to look at life from a perspective of assessment and rather than experience. And when I assess, like, the practical value of art, I go, not valuable. When I look at my experience of life, a day that starts with art is an amazing day. So those parts of me are still, like, battling it out of my head.

Yeah, that's so cool. That's a question that I have for myself too. Like, could that be enough? Could that feeling be enough? And just let your day unfold as it is. And I love what you share about art because it's such a high frequency. And the way I see it is kind of like we are made of cables and then we are used to get a certain energy rushing through the cables and the more we tap into this authenticity and the more we allow like art and your unique gifts and the things that light you up, you're like increasing the amount of energy that's going through those cables. And that's the discomfort, right? That's the like, oh yeah, my cables are used to this and now I'm inviting more and then I need to upgrade my cables. And the way we upgrade the categories, tables, it's kind of what, what you're doing, you know, like just, you know, just do it, just feel it and, and keep moving. So I love your tarot deck, by the way. I'm, I'm waiting to buy one, so just. Yeah, like, let us know.

You've been teasing us for months. Do you not, not, not to, not to put the pressure on you and call you out, but do you have any sense of when you'll be, be offering it?

It's a good question. I mean I'm, I'm back to working on it every day. I, I think I finish a card or two a day. I have at least 44 car. Definitely be more like we're looking at like two months to have the first round of the deck completed. And then what I really want to do is I want to do a Kickstarter campaign to launch the deck.

So.

And I'm hoping that Phil and Carolina, you can help me with strategizing around that. So I think we're at like, I think we're at like three, at least three months to a launch of the cards. It's going to. Cause it's going to take me at least two months just to get it done. It's a very labor intensive process. So I am building all the cards myself in canva using free graphics. I challenge and people are like, why don't you use paid graphics? Or why don't use AI Right. But I'm like, I really try to use like I. Every now and again I'll use a paid graphic because I just can't find anything else better. But like I try to use all free graphics and so it's, it's a really cool challenge and like, but it takes a while, right?

Like, I.

Yesterday, I built. I built with building the King of Swords. And I have this little Zen meditator, and he's got a sword above him that's, like, in this glowing ball with, like, fire behind it. And that glowing ball and fire is like, 20 different elements of canva that are pieced together to make the right kind of glow and fire. It's like this light thing and then two of these things and three of these things next to it. And then the background is, like, four or five different graphical images. And so they are like these really kind of deep, complex images, even though they look almost drawn, that I basically collaged together using digital collage. So, yeah, so I think we're about three months out from a launch date, at least.

Yeah, it's really quite amazing. Like, if you hadn't told me that you're creating them in Canva like, that, I would have never suspected or believed that it's, like, super unique and creative the way you're doing it. So, yeah, I'm really excited to. I also want to get my hands on a copy of that, so. It's awesome.

Yeah.

So the next question I have for you is around, actually around connection, which is another thing we talk a lot about in our community. But one of the things that I feel that is one of the biggest challenges creators face is this idea of, like, how do you create meaningful, authentic connections while sharing your message? And so I would love to hear from you what your approach to connection is and what advice specifically you might give to someone who might be watching, and maybe they're struggling to share what they have to offer more consistently.

I mean, I feel like I'm a little bit lucky in that. Like, I just. I find people really fascinating. So, like, I kind of don't have a hard time ever connecting with people because I'm just like. I'm like, tell me more about you. And I ask lots and lots of questions. I'm very extroverted, so I think I also have that advantage. You know, it's interesting. My. My approach to friendship is that I'm very determined when I want to be. Basically what happens is, like, I'll meet somebody. Be like, okay, I just. I just kind of decide. I unilaterally decide we're going to be friends, and then I kind of won't let anything stop me. Right. Like, if it was romantic, partner would probably be a little inappropriate and creepy. Like, I'm just like. I'm very, like, no, but I get. I just. I just decide I'm Going to create it. And it's interesting, I didn't realize this was a difference I had. I was in dinner in Mexico City, which is where I'm based out of right now. And we were at this, this thing called well Fed, which is great. It's this little dinner club that exists in Mexico City. Kind of like time left, which is sort of a more international one. And people were growing and talking about other people they'd met at other dinners. And this one woman was like, oh, well, I just feel like you just need to run into people and that's how you, like, create connection with them. And I was like, well, she was talking about how much she loved the people from her last dinner. And she said, like, I was asked, I asked her like, well, have you met up with any of them? She goes, no, I feel like I just need to see them around. And I was like, well, when I meet people at a dinner, if I like them, I get their phone number. And I asked them out to coffee that week, right? I'm just like, let's make this happen. And what happened by me just having this very simple strategy. I meet somebody, like, I get their number, I invite them out to coffee right away is that within three weeks of being in Mexico City, I had a game night of like 8, 9, 10 people that would show up at my house. We'd all play games every like two or three weeks. And it was simply that I just like decided, like, okay, I'm going to create connection, right? I didn't. There's. I think there's all these like weird social scripts about how we're supposed to connect with people or what the right cadence is. And I sort of tend to just ignore that and be like, if I like somebody, I'm just going to try to hang out with them and follow up with them and be persistent. And it amazes me that other people don't do that, right? Like, they'll meet somebody and they're like, oh, I just hope I run into them again. I'm like, well, I don't want to leave it up to chance. If I like them, let's just hang out. And so I think that's a bit of my approach to the connection of, like, I'm not worried if I come off as a bit of a pick me boy. I'm not worried if I come off a bit as a try hard. Like, I just like, if I like somebody, I want them to know that I like them. And the worst thing that happens is they're just like, not into hanging out with me, which is they'll just decline hanging out with me two or three times. And then I'm like, okay, I move on with my life. So I think that's my approach to connection. Just like you like people, be brave enough to connect with them, set things up with them regularly. And like, if you do that, you're.

Going to build relationship with them and everything is connected. So I would assume you're going to give a very similar answer. But as it relates to your work, how do you see that translating into your coaching practice and maybe even how you. I'm sure this is. Something comes up when you're coaching people through your own community.

Yeah.

Any advice you have on that side of things?

I mean, I think it is very similar. The biggest. I work with a lot of coaches. I teach a very simple methodology for growing your coaching business, which is that you go out and meet people in the world, you connect with them naturally, you then invite them into a conversation where you maybe can deepen your relationship. And then eventually you invite them into a free coaching session. Do a free coaching session. I call them possibility calls, where you create the possibility of coaching. And then if that session goes well, then you invite them into what I call a commitment call where you talk about what it would look like for them to commit to coaching. And the biggest thing I see coaches struggle with, but I see all people kind of struggle with this is like, well, I don't want to, like, invite them into coaching because then, like, that feels really pushy or kind of weird or like, I don't want to just connect with people. That the only reason why I want to talk to them is because I want to sign them as clients. And I'm like, well, just don't do that. Like, don't be weird, right? Actually connect with people when you're connecting with them, but be open and looking for the opportunity to serve them. And I really feel like when we connect with people, when we're looking for the opportunity to serve them, those opportunities are always there. And so in the coaching beyond yes or no course, as well as the book that I'm working on, I talk about this idea of the hunter and the monk. We have these two parts of ourselves inside of us when we're connecting with people in our business. So the monk is just totally with people and connecting and in the moment and not attached to anything. And that's the part of me that shows up on every call I have with a potential client. Right? We're just connecting and I'M curious and asking questions. But then I have this other part that's like the hunter, and that's sort of like the ruthless sales guy is like, okay, how do I, like, where's my opportunity? Like, invite them into coaching, and he's in the background kind of like looking for the. Where's the door? And, oh, that's a problem. Maybe I could ask them some questions about that. And that could be a thing I could offer them a session on. And, like, I think we judge the sort of huntery, sort of like, strategic part of ourselves as being bad. And I don't think that part of me is bad. He just really needs to be filtered through the wisdom of the monk, right? So. So that I'm not being a jerk, but, like, if I act like it's bad for me to ever want to sign a client or be strategic about how I might ask them on a question in the hopes that they might be open to working with me, then I like, I just. I come off as sort of, like, super passive and, like, almost like, I don't care. And the truth is, I do care, right? Like, this is my purpose in the world, to serve those people walking the path of awakening. I need to be strategic about that purpose. I need to lean forward. I need to make an effort. Because if I don't, then all the other people out there who. Their purpose is to sell more tennis shoes, they have no problem being strategic and trying to get people to buy stuff. If I can allow myself to lean forward and allow that strategic, that, you know, clever part of myself to be filtered through my wisdom, filtered through my. For the sacred part of myself, then I can both be really present with people and see where there's an opportunity to invite someone to coaching, See somebody. Where there's an opportunity to invite someone into service. And so that's how I do it. Like, the monk is always in front. The monk's in charge of what's happening. But, like, you know, that part that's back there, it's like, how can I get this guy to buy this used car? He's there, too, and he's a great part of myself. I just. He just can't be the main person in charge.

I love that. And both are sacred, right? Like, it's. It's the thing about, like, yeah, I love what you said. And I think that we have, like, this idea, this judgment that, like, trying to sell something is wrong, you know, and if you just shift the idea of, like, hey, I have something that can help you and the exchange between your, like, my service and my help is money. And it's just like the exchange tool. It's nothing more than that. Like just, you know, releasing this heaviness around selling and happiness around, like connecting and forcing people to buy something. It's not about that. It's totally about connection. So thanks. Yeah, it's beautiful.

There's this example I use in the, in the book where I can't remember the guy, his name is Zach or Ryan, but he says he's this guy who's a sushi waiter, a waiter at a sushi restaurant in Salt Lake. And every time I go in there, I always end up buying way more sushi and buying more expensive sushi than I would buy to begin with. He's 100% getting me to spend more money. But the way that he does it is he's so excited about sushi and so excited about talking about what he's doing and he's like, oh, you gotta try this. And this thing's amazing. You really should try this role. After that role, like, I spend more money, but I'm happy about it, right? Because it is actually helping me have a better experience at this restaurant. And we don't think of that as sales or selling. The only thing we think about as sales or selling is like, when people are being very heavy handed and pressuring us, we're like, oh, that's selling. But the truth is, like the majority of selling that's happening to you that you find beneficial, you just don't think about it as selling. And so if we started to include those things, like every time you have a podcast that you love, you're trying to get all your friends to listen to the podcast, you become like the world's best salesperson, right? And if you could just be that way about your business, like, your business is just an amazing podcast that everyone has to listen to. And this episode was so good because you find out who the killer was and oh my God, I don't want to tell you the end because I'm going to spoil it. Like, if you can bring that energy to it, then you're fine. It's just we try to avoid the, like, I don't want to be pushy, pushy, pushy. And then we end up being like nothing at all. Right? How can you be that excited about selling your business?

Yeah, yeah, I love that, like, that energy, that passion is infectious and people feel it and I think sometimes that's all they really need to feel, to feel captured, to move forward.

Yeah.

And there's another thing that I've been. It's related to what you're sharing, but it's something I've been experiencing more for myself lately that's related to this service and kind of what you're talking about with the monk and the. I don't know what you call him. The sales guy, but the hunter.

I call him the hunter, but the hunter.

Yeah. Yeah. And so you're right. Those parts are all in us. And I noticed this thing that I used to do in a sales conversation where I would feel that there was something that should be said from, like, a place of, like, pure love or, like, service that wasn't gonna, like, make them like me. Like, it was gonna be uncomfortable to share. And also, like, this recognition that I'm, like, actually not there for you to like me. I'm not there, you know, for you to feel good.

Really.

I'm really there to, like, be in service to you and. And. And when you align. And for me, this is something I've been practicing a lot with, because when I. If I can align my energy there. And I kind of relate this to what you're talking about with putting the monk first, where, yes, there's the part of me that does want to make the sale, like, I have to be very honest about that. Like, I want money just like everyone else. But if I put that part forward and I can communicate from that place of service, even if it isn't the thing that people necessarily want to hear, I've also found that that. And that's a form of resistance for me, and fear. But I found that that oftentimes can create a really strong connection. And it was when I started practicing with that, it was so scary. But then I was like, I did that a few times, and people would come back and they'd be like, wow. Like, thank you so much. Like, you said the thing that no one else has been willing to say. And so, anyway, that was just something I thought I'd share. That that came up for me as I was thinking about these different roles and identities that you're playing with as you're on a call.

Well, and I think the other thing that's interesting is what most people do when they don't run a business is they'll work for another company. And then what's happening is somebody in that company is selling something, and they have different values. Maybe they're not tracking their hunter, monk, balance, all hunter. And, like, you might get shielded from that experience by having a job. So like, what happens when you run your business is, like, you actually have to deal with those difficult parts of yourself and the parts of yourself to want to make money, and the parts of yourself that has an agenda. But you get to deal with them, right? You get to be responsible for them and handle them in a really beautiful way. But I think that what a lot of people experience when they have their own business is that they actually have to start to deal with that part of life. And they go, I don't. Like, this part of life is dirty and icky, and I don't want to deal with it. I'm like, we all got to deal with it. You can either give that job to somebody else who maybe is not as moral as you, maybe who doesn't have the same values as you, or you can take on that difficult work of, like, you know, we live in a capitalist society. Maybe that's not how it should be. That is society we live in. So how do we learn? How do we. I say, how do we master the economics of transformation? Right? We want people to change people for better, for worse. Like, money is the most powerful standard for commitment that we have. And so when people pay money to something, they're expressing their commitment to it. And so when I enroll people into coaching, it's not that I'm trying to get their money, it's that, you know, I want their commitment. And for most people, the amount of money they pay really is related to how much, how committed they are. I once hired a coach for $60,000 for a year. I showed up to every one of our calls on time. I flew out to LA once. Like, I treated that thing like it was gold because I paid so much money for it. I was like, I gotta get a good, right? And, you know, I've got subscription services I pay five bucks a month for, and I forget that it even exists, right? So, like. And that's not for you. I mean, $100 could be a lot of money, right? So there is how you relate to money in a certain way, but it's not a perfect correlation. Yeah, it's not a perfect correlation. And like, like it or not, like, when people invest a significant amount of money, they really show up with a lot of reverence most of the time.

Yeah, it's like going to the gym. Like, if you're just paying the membership and it's like $20 a month, whatever. Like, the rates are so high of people just not showing up. And then if you hire a personal trainer and you're like, paying like whatever, 200, like per week. And then plus the gym, plus this, Then you're like. And then at the end of the day, you're committing to yourself.

Right.

It's not even like you're not committed to the other person. It's that person created a system that enables you to commit to yourself in ways that you've never. Maybe you're never able to do that before. So it's very powerful.

Yeah.

Cool. Well, we're. We're actually already a little over time. How are you doing, Toku? Do you have a little time if anyone has questions?

Yeah, yeah, I'm good. I'm here till at least another 10 minutes for you guys, for sure.

Cool, cool. So, yeah, at this point, I know we still have people hanging out here with us. Like, I'd love to open it up to substack. If there's anyone in the chat that has questions for Toku, please type those in the chat now. I saw something from Maria about the book that you were referencing earlier.

It's called Coaching Beyond. Yes or no is the working title. And I also have an online course that teaches sort of this methodology or way of. What I say is that people who have an experience with coaching, it doesn't have to just be coaches, it is designed for coaches. But if you have some experience with coaching, it's basically a process you can use to use all of your coaching skills to enroll clients or have sales conversations. Because I think that for me, a sales conversation is just a conversation you're having with someone about making a commitment. I wish I invented the phrase coaching, the conversion I get. Phil invented that phrase. And I was like, oh, that's such a good one. Why didn't I come up with that one? But I don't know if you still talk about that, but it's a similar idea. Like, it's. You're the. Is you're working with someone. The way I think about it is, like, we tend to think about sales as, like, it's me over here and the customers over here, and we're kind of battling. Like, I'm trying to get them to buy and they're trying to like, defend and get a better price. Right? I'm like, the best sales conversations is we're next to each other, looking at the future that they want. And my job is to work with them to move all the stuff that's in the way out of the way. And that's a conversation about commitment. You know, that's what they want. Then let me help them get there. And that's how I do all of my sales calls, which I call commitment calls. And I've literally had people, like, ask me to do sales conversations with them. Like, that's how much they like sales come. They're like, I'm pretty sure I'm a yes to this, but I just want to do a sales conversation with you because I know I'm going to get a lot from it. What was like, the last time you heard that? Like, please do a sales conversation with me. But that's what's possible if you have this kind of conversation. So I have a course which we can share online, and then I'm working on a book that's like a more robust expression of that idea.

It's funny that you said that because there's a mentor and coach that I've worked with on a few different engagements and I've shared this conversation with Carolina that it's very similar to what you described. Like, it's such an enjoyable conversation and it's kind of like this weird tension because I know, like, if I get on the call, I'm going to spend a lot of money and I'm just grateful to do it. And I know it's like, going to be such a fascinating. The sales conversation alone is going to be such a fascinating exploration and then the work itself is powerful.

So.

So, yeah, I totally relate with what you're. What you're sharing there. But anyone else I know, there's still some folks joining. For those of you that are joining late, we're here with Toku Makree, who is a coach, transformational coach, who blends ancient wisdom with modern psychology. And we've just been having a fascinating conversation about how he relates with his purpose and topics like fear and resistance. So I would encourage you to come back and watch the replay if you have the time. But for now, if there's any other questions before we wrap up for Toku, we'd love to answer those for you in the chat. So please type in if there's anything you'd like to like to ask about.

I do have a question, Toku.

Sure.

Related to the topic of connection and selling and the way you said, like, oh, yeah, you work for a company and then guess what? Somebody's selling for the company and it's a job that someone has to do it. And I noticed sometimes that, like, people, sometimes they could perform a good sale call or something if they're selling something else, not themselves. And when you tap into this world of, like, being a Coach or, like, even, like, you're a sacred business. Like, that's a combination of all of who you are and then how I find that it's very challenging for people to sell themselves. Would you have, you know, your wisdom or, like, your talk around that?

Like, you're not. But you're not selling yourself. Like, when I. When I sell, when I'm doing my best sales as a coaching, as a coach, what I'm selling my clients is their commitment to their own future. That's what they're buying. And I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna be there on it, right? It's like, I think I use this analogy in the book. It's like, you're a mountain. You're like a mountain guide, and you're, like, sitting next to each other, and you'd be like. Like, oh, like, what mountain do you want to climb? They're like, I think I want to climb that mountain. And I'm like, oh, cool. Like, what do you want to experience on the mountain? They're like, I want to. I want to milk a yak, and I want to meet an abominable snowman, and I want to make friends with this. This tribe in Nepal. It's gonna be great. I'm like, oh, that sounds really awesome. Like, I'm down to do that. That sounds amazing. And they're like, okay, what's gonna be hard about climbing that mountain? Like, I don't know. I'm afraid of the cold. I probably need some good clothing. And, like, I'm worried that, like, the tribe people won't like me, and that'll remind me of, like, what it was like when I was in school, and I'm like, oh, okay, cool. That sounds really tough. Like, would it be helpful to have me there with you? Because I know that tribe, and I know the right kind of clothing to buy. And they're like, yeah, it would be really great to have you with me. Okay, cool. Well, do you want to climb that mountain together? So it's not like they're not buying me, right? They're buying the experience of climbing the mountain. They're buying that thing. And, like, especially true with coaching is, like, it's not my agenda. Like, I don't get to decide for them, like, what they want to do. They decide what they want to do. And so I'm just like, cool. Do you want to do that? Would it be helpful to have me there with you? And so it is. Like, I think it is a really deep spiritual practice, but it's so funny that, like, coaches are so good at getting themselves out of the way when they're coaching, but as soon as it comes to selling, they're like, oh, no, it's about me, and I got to do this thing. And I'm like, it's not about you. Right. It's about the clients, about their relationship themselves, and you supporting them to be on that journey. So, honestly, like, I have done. I have set up, like, things with clients for, like, the stuff they want to do, and I'm like, I have no idea to help them. Like, if someone was like, hey, can you help this guy do this? I'm like, nope, I'm screwed. That's not possible. Right. But I don't actually have to believe that I can help them. I just have to believe that my client can do it. Right. And so I just keep putting my attention on them. What do they want? What do I think is possible for them? And as soon as I do that, I'm like, well, they're probably going to, like, do it anyway. Like, they're. I can see they're capable of it, and I'm so excited to help them. So that's how I do it. I try to get myself out of the way in that way.

It's very powerful. Because the way you're saying, like, in a way, like, you empower the other person in such a way that they become unstoppable, invincible, and you're just holding the space to be that person. Right. And then. Yeah. And then the sales conversation again. Are you committed to. To your dream or to your mountain or to your project? And I'm just here to walk with you. Yeah. I think that shifting perspective can be very helpful because. Yeah. This thing about, like, it's not me, like, I'm not doing. I'm not walking the path for you.

Right? Yeah. I could teach a class on how to make a really good grilled cheese sandwich. Like, if that's what is necessary, is like, great grilled cheese sandwich. I got that. I got that in spades. Right? Like, I don't need coaching. I don't need to coach you. I'm just going to show you how to make a grilled cheese sandwich. But when it comes to coaching or anything transformational, like, it's never us, right? It's spirit, it's God. It's that own person's divine wisdom. Right. Like, you know, I'm just. I'm. I'm there hanging out. I'm trying to help them remember that, like, we're both hanging out with God. Like that's it. I'm like, oh, yeah, did you remember, like, we're hanging out with God and they're like, oh, right, cool. I can do it. I'm like, great. That's my only job, right? Not to do anything for them.

Yes. Yeah, I like this. I often say, like, my, my partner is God. Some people find like what, like what it is. It's the universe. Right?

Yeah.

Well, if there's no other questions in the chat, I guess. Toku, where can people find you to learn more about your work? I know obviously we're here on Substack so they can find you here, but if they want to read more into kind of what you're working on, whether it be the tarot cards or your, your coaching work, what would you suggest for them?

Sure. So you can find me on Substack. My substack is called Unconventional wisdom. You also, you can just look at my profile. I do have a secondary substack, which is I wrote a second substack in December. I wrote 31 letters to my future wife. So if you know my future wife, please introduce me to her. I'm sure she's amazing. So you'll find them. Yeah, that's really why. That's why I'm just, I'm just here to. I'm here to just meet ladies on Substack. It's the new Substack's new Tinder guys. Come on. So you'll see that under there. You can look at that. It's just a short term project that I'm not really working on anymore. I worked on it in December, but that's the main place. And then you can find me on both unexecutive.com, which is my executive coaching website, and Coachingmba Co, which is my coaching website. So. And that's if you're. I think you can still buy the course on there, but if you go and subscribe on there, you'll get information about the coaching beyond yes and no course as well. Cool.

Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate your time. We really appreciate you in a way being our guinea pig as we are experimenting with this new medium for the first time. And so, yeah, super grateful for you to have you in our community. And yeah, we'll be sharing this recording with everyone here in our audience. And I don't know exactly how this works. Maybe you're already going to get a copy of it, but we'll be happy to share it with you as well. So we'll see how it goes, but yeah, thank you so much. And thank you to everyone that joined us and stayed with us for this whole time. And I'm sure if you have any other questions for Tokyo after this call, he's available and active here in substack, so definitely.

Look, just slide into my substack dms. That's what everyone's been doing these days. Cool.

Awesome. All right, thank you, my friend, and we will talk to you soon.

All right, Bye. Bye.

Sending love to everyone. Thanks.