The Leo Babauta conversation we almost didn't publish

AI is such a huge topic these days that we're going to set aside everything else but what you asked about.

Uh, yeah, yeah. Like, let's not turn this into a rabbit hole, but I would love to hear specifically, yeah, around the simplicity and focus side.

Yeah. You know, I've noticed it too for myself. AI, uh, like using AI, it's an accelerator for a lot of things, like accelerate for what we can do, for what we can write, what we can output. But it's also an accelerator for that part of our brain that you, you just, you know, pointed to. I think that's a really big insight that you just shared, is that, uh, our brains already want to do more and more and are already saying yes to too much. And the AI, you know, I've been using Claude, uh, just— I don't get paid by them, so just to let you know, but I've been using Claude, and Claude always is like, it's like a yes man, you know. Like, yes, you can do this. Yes, of course. That's the amazing idea.

Best idea ever. When are you going to launch that, Leo?

Like, thanks, Claude. Oh, I've been wanting someone to tell me this. Uh, so, uh, my best cheerleader. So anyway, um, yeah, so it's always a yes. And then, you know, I noticed the same thing as that you're noticing in yourself and others. It's like, that means I'm, I'm, I've said yes to so much and I have you know, 12 projects all running in parallel and at different stages of completion. There's another part of my brain where this is very triggering for that likes everything to be complete. And so when things aren't complete, I'm just like, I can't stop with 12 projects at once until they're all finished. Um, and so I have to work with both of those parts of my brains, the one that wants everything complete and the one that wants to say yes to all the projects at once. And so this is where again, self-trust really helps because I found it. I actually noticed it happening like you're noticing. And, um, I was like, oh, there's no way I can actually do all of this stuff. There's, I have, I, like you said, I have no focus right now. And so that's where I catch myself. And it's not just with AI, it's everywhere. But I did notice that here is I had to be like, huh, maybe I need to step back and also not completely believe everything Claude tells me. So I'm like in the Claude hallucination and I'm like, I need to wake up, wake up. But so yeah, I was like, huh, what do I actually want to focus on here? And you know, maybe some of these are projects that I can put off. And so I made a little bit of a plan. I was like, yes, some of these I'm going to defer till later this year, maybe next year. Some of them I'm going to defer for a couple of months and some I'm really going to, you know, one or two I'm going to really focus on. And so that is hard because we have to let go. That's why some simplicity is hard is because it is, it is a thing that requires a little bit of discipline and of finding the focus that you want. And then the letting go of the things that our brains are like, no, I don't want to let go of this. I want, I want it all. You know, if I tell people, you know, simplify your day down to like 3 to 5 important things and then maybe some other less important things and they're like, but it's all important. You know, there's, I have 20 important things to do today. I'm like, okay. You know, we don't want to let go of any of that. Uh, so choosing requires that, right? And that's, that's hard. So I think cloud only exacerbates that, the, the already, uh, or cloud or ChatGPT or whatever. You're using, um, they just accelerate the preexisting kind of tendencies of the brain. That's actually one of the big problems with AI, by the way, uh, is that it never will question your, um, your preexisting view. You're just going to be plugging into the same view over and over again. So it's not like a coach. People will use it as a replacement for a coach because it's like, Oh, okay. It'll give me all the answers, but it doesn't actually ever question anything unless you ask it to. But you had to already know to ask it to question it. Yeah.

If that's— if that awareness is not there, then you just keep following that down, down the path. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah. And it's really, really hard because again, like, we all— and it's this, uh, you know, one of the things I often say to people is this very simple phrase, which is like, not right now doesn't mean not ever, you know, because we've such this fear of missing out and we see everybody doing all these cool things and it's like we feel like we're in this like new gold rush period or something and we need to keep up. And yeah, Caroline and I have this, we have this like playful thing that, and we sometimes we do with clients, but mostly with ourselves, which is just like, not on the list. We'll just be like, not on the list, Carol. Or she'll be like, not on the list. And I'm like, oh no, you're right. It's just not on the list.

And it's like, we have to just get back to where we were.

So So yeah, yeah, thanks. That was very, very helpful to hear your perspective. But, yeah, I know. And thank you for like kind of indulging us. We kind of went off our normal topics a little bit, but I felt like there's some just really interesting things there. But, kind of coming back to the next one, which I feel like— Oh, just a second.

Oh, go ahead.

Just because Rebecca has a question. Any advice for keeping track of not right now ideas?

I'll put that on you two because you guys have, it seems like you're working together on that.

Oh, um, yeah, so like for me it's, um, first of all, it's just allowing me to get it out of my head. That's the most important thing. So if I leave it in my head, it can drive me crazy. So kind of in a similar path to what you were talking about, Leo, when you just kind of like get everything out, especially if I'm feeling overwhelmed. But even if I'm just like walking on the beach or something and something hits me and I know it's not for this moment, I just like make sure I capture it, you know? And so I, I use, I've tried everything like under the sun. I've come back to what I've found to be the most simplest thing right now, which is Things 3, which is kind of a very simple task manager. It's been around forever. And so I just dump that stuff out and then I have a list that's just basically like over the horizon. And so I basically put it on the list and then I essentially will kind of date out into the future when I want to revisit it again. And I try to like, go as long as I can let myself go without it being uncomfortable. So I'll be like, hey, like this idea is really cool, but I'm not going to think about it again for 6 weeks. And then on a Friday, because Friday is when I do my weekly reviews, anything that was dated for that Friday will pop back up. And then I'm like, okay, it's been 6 weeks. Actually, usually I don't know how long it's been because I don't like track that. It's just I had pre-thought it. So then I just look at it again. I'm like, hey, is this still relevant? A lot of times I delete it because I'm like, you know what, that was just a fleeting idea and life has shown me that that wasn't even necessary. Or if it's still relevant, I'm like, hey, let's pull this into our next week or quarter or whatever it is. Or sometimes I just keep punting it out into the future. And that way I just know that my brain has a space for it and I'm not losing something that maybe it has fear of missing out on or losing a good idea. And that's really it. I mean, I could go way deeper, but just for simplicity, that's like That's the practice, Rebecca.

So if that helps, you know, I'll share one thing I've been doing lately on this before we go to whatever. Yeah, next topic. Yeah. Lately, I, one thing that's really been working for me and I've just more of a recent thing that I brought back, but I have this block in the morning. It's like my earliest block and I've been calling it like my anchor block.

It's a 2-hour Um, first thing in the morning before I tackle, before I touch email or anything else, um, I meditate and I do this.

Um, and then in that block, I already have determined what I'm going to do for this week. Um, and so it's either one project or two. Um, you know, like maybe one project's going to only take two days and I'll be done.

And then I can use the rest of the three days for the other project, but it's already determined.

And so the not right now really helps with that because I, or this helps with that because I already know the biggest project that I'm going to be working on, uh, and the rest of the day I can do smaller stuff or create content or calls. Uh, but the big stuff I have to fit into that. And that means that some projects just aren't going to be happen for like weeks or months. So anyway, I just wanted to share that.

Yeah, I agree. And we've taught something, we have something called our sacred planning rituals, but there's a million ways you can learn this. But that's where I agree with you, where having kind of some sort of a daily, weekly, quarterly process and creating those containers so you know you can anchor to where you are kind of in space and time, and then that helps as well. So yeah, I think that that's kind of what you're speaking to there. So yeah, thank you for sharing.

I just want to share, Rebecca, with you, like, I have two lists for myself. So one is the not right now, and I just keep it on my notes for simplicity. And then I revisit, but those are like more big projects. And I also have a list that's like things to do when I don't know what to do. Um, but those are like simple things. So it's like, if it's a big project, it goes to my notes. I both, it's like on my notes, but if it's just, and I can just revisit. So if right now, like I have like a 1 hour and I don't know what to do, but you know, I had some ideas, but those are like simple things that can get done in an hour, but it's just creative that might take me somewhere. It might just be for fun. Then I go for this list. So it's my two lists, but it's just on my notes.

That's cool. Yeah. Not to, yeah, things to do when you don't know what to do. That's, I think we've talked about that, but I love that idea. That's awesome.

Well, cool, Leo.

The next topic is, I feel very near and dear to your heart. It seems to be, it's, well, at least when we were doing work together, and I feel it's still a big part of it, is this idea around fear and uncertainty and resistance. And so one of the things that I feel we share with you and that we try to convey to our audience is that it's very normal. It's like 100% perfectly normal to have fear and resistance to doing things, and especially when it's like something close to your heart, like when you know it's something that's meaningful to you. I feel those are the times when those things kind of rear their head even more. And so, yeah, I'd love to ask you, and just to make it even more practical, like, What is an area that you're willing to share where that some form of fear or resistance shows up for you? And these days, what do you do to work with that to keep going forward? Maybe it's related. You kind of shared a flavor of that earlier that was more specific to that. But if anything else comes up around this, I think it would be really great to hear from you.

Yes, 1000%. I agree. Fear. Fear and uncertainty are normal and expected. And, you know, I think it's for this particular group watching, I imagine that you all are open to like something that you're inspired by, a possibility, right? So it's like this thing that you could see that doesn't exist yet. Like I want to build this business or create this content or write a book. And so you like see what could be. And I think probably more than most of the population, you're more present to that. Like, ah, I could— I really want to create something that doesn't exist. I want to make this app, you know, I want to like make a new life for myself. And so whenever we have that, we will also have an equal amount of uncertainty and fear because it's like this thing that I really want to create, but there's also a lot of uncertainty. I don't know if I can create, I don't know how, I might fail. And so immediately you'll get the kind of opposite reaction of like, oof, maybe I should take my time and I'll do it next year, right? Or maybe I need to read 1,000 books first and then I'll start, right? Or whatever it would be. It's like this delay the action that might be really scary. Even though you might still want the thing, you're kind of, you put the brakes on. And so yeah, I do think it's really, it's normal for anyone creating entrepreneurs. Anyone stepping into the unknown leadership is another area. And so relationships is another one. We're stepping into the unknown and then we have fear. That I don't know what I'm doing, I might fall. I don't have anything solid to hold on to. I don't have control. Um, but you asked about me specifically, and I was like trying to think, uh, I'm willing to share anything, but I, there's just so many that where it comes up for us. Hard to choose.

That's probably already helpful for people to hear.

Yeah. I'm like, oh, do you want to hear about my sewing project? I'm doing this, uh, I've been doing for years now. Sewing this thing called a rakusu, which is, uh, this thing that you hang around your neck for my Zen, uh, practice. I have to sew that in order to take these vows. There's layperson's vows, and I've been doing it for years because there's resistance, right? There's a lot of fear. I don't know what I'm doing. It's not like fear that I'm gonna, uh, fail, but fear that I'm not doing it right. I think is the fear. So I work with that and every stitch has that in the, in it. Um, and I resist and then I work with it again and I resist and it's almost done. My goal is to finish it this month. So, um, but then, you know, more, maybe more relevant is Substack is another one. So, uh, yeah, it's not like crippling fear or anything like that, but, uh, but I, wanted to write my book. So it's called Zen, the Zen of Doing. And I'm like, let me just share the things publicly on Substack. So I'm going to share posts on there. And immediately I started creating the Substack and I'm like, I don't know how to do any of this stuff. And I was like, there's so many options and I'm reading other people's advice on how to do it. And I had to kind of work with that. And I just like, you know what, I'm just going to go really simply and just pick a name, you know, just start, write a post and not really think, overthink all of it. But my brain wanted to overthink everything and like have a certain path right in front of me. And so I had to work with that. And then I started doing it and then I'm like, oh, what about notes? And do I follow other people? And like all of that stuff started coming up and I'm like, huh, I've been here before, first of all. But second of all, it's just like, oh, my brain really wants to like I have certainty and control. I don't, so I had to kind of work with that and just kind of like let go of that and again, choose the simple path is kind of the way that I work with that. But yeah, I mean, I don't know what the hell I'm doing on Substack or with my rakusu and that's okay. That's where the trust has to kind of bring the trust back and because it's not something that I just have and then it's done, I'll lose the trust sometimes cuz I'm like, ooh, but I don't know what I'm doing and these guys know what they're doing better and maybe I should do what they're doing. So the trust is kind of bringing back to that trust of like, it's okay that I don't know what I'm doing. I can make a mess of it. I can do it imperfectly. I just wanna like take one step at a time. Mm-hmm.

So that is the way you said it. It, it does. And, and just the way you said it, like it felt so natural for you. Mm-hmm. Like, would you say that your ability to separate from, like, for example, you said like, oh, my brain is here. I'm looking for certainty or my brain is here, but we can sense that there is like you observing your brain. Do you think, you know, and it's not you, like, do you think that that's what, like, is it helpful for you to name as your brain so you can follow?

Um, yeah, I didn't think about actually naming how I refer to it as my brain, but I, It's, that comes from me just observing how my mind works, how my brain works.

And so I'm like, oh, my brain.

So if I'm sitting in meditation and my brain's like trying to plan the day, I'm not like, you know, doing meditation the way that I want to. And I'm like, huh, my brain is very feeling very like anxious or lack of control and needs to try and figure everything out. And so I just noticed my tendencies.

I like to figure everything out.

I like to have everything settled.

You know, one other example is I'm, we're planning to move in a couple of months, uh, or probably.

And so my brain's like, okay, I need doctors, I need dentists, I need to figure out registration and my business moving. And like the things I need to figure out is like a thousand things long. My brain is just like doing all of this. So to answer your question. I do think it's really been helpful for me to be able to just watch that happen. Uh, it's, it's engaged in the process. And then there's part of me that's just watching it like, oh yeah, it's doing that again. And when I first engaged with that kind of observing the brain, I was very judgmental. And so I was, oh, the brain shouldn't be doing all of this stuff. It, you know, and now I'm much more soft with my brain where I'm just like, yeah, of course it's, it's scared, right? It's feeling uncertainty. It needs, it feels out of control. And so I just have a lot more compassion for the brain and its tendencies. And I, I don't try and change the tendencies, but I also just recognize that underneath that is some kind of fear and uncertainty. And so I just try and like go to that level, the tactics. If I can, if I try and argue with the tactics of the brain, it won't do anything because it's like, well, screw you. I just, I need to do all of this. Right. Like, I don't care what you say, but if I go like, hey, I know you're scared, you're feeling lack of control. And then, you know, it's okay. We've got this, you know, then it's like, okay, are you sure? And so it's a, for me, I also think of it like my kids, right? So they are okay being the way that they are. I don't need to change them, but I can also recognize when they're feeling anxious and just kind of reassure them or be with them or have compassion and not need them to stop doing whatever they're doing, right? Because they're going to do what they do and they're human. And so I just try and be with my kids with a sense of softness, when they're going through something and not need to like fix it for them. Don't argue with their tactics, but just be with them on that level. And so I do the same thing with my very hardworking brain. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. One of the things I've always appreciated about you, Leo, and maybe I've told you this before, but if not, I'll acknowledge it. It's just that I feel for many people, and I've seen this in myself, and I've worked— is there's, you know, when you've had some sort of domain expertise in some area, something that's externally been visible for people, we really cling to that. And then we really cling to this identity of the one who is competent. Right. And so I see this get in the way of people where they're trying to reinvent. And something I've observed in you is you've had— and I believe this is one of your— one of the things that leads to your continued success and longevity is you allow yourself to be the ongoing kind of beginner. Like, I observed that with you when you're like, hey, I want to launch a podcast, or hey, I want to go onto YouTube, or it's like, Hey, I'm going to come on Substack now. And, you know, you've had these other successes, you've had numbers that many other people would probably, you know, just dream of. But then you're willing to be the guy that just shows up. It's like, you know what, I've got like, you know, I just launched my YouTube and I got 10 new subscribers. I know you don't anymore, but like 10 subscribers and I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And you're very honest about that. And I just find that so inspiring and refreshing. So, and such a good role model. A good role model for myself and for everyone. So thank you for demonstrating that. And, and yeah, I know we're coming up on time. Yeah, you're welcome. I know we're coming up on time. I want to ask you one more question and I want to leave just a little bit of space for you to share, like for anyone who's not familiar with your work, how they could get plugged in. But the question I wanted to ask you just to kind of close on questions and just to kind of make this practical and tactical. You know, there's a lot of, and as you mentioned, you know, you can, there's a lot of the same kind of advice kind of ongoing that you can find around growth and building a business. But I'm curious for you, and it doesn't have to be about growth. It could be just how you relate to customers or how you work with your business behind the scenes. Like what's something that you're observing in yourself, maybe in the last year that has been working. Particularly well for you or, you know, in the way you think about your business and something you might want to suggest as a practice or a tactic to people. And it could be anything across the board around your business growth.

Yeah. Well, growth is a loaded topic for a lot of people. So I will say, yeah, because when I, when I focus on growth, which, you know, I think is appropriate to do, but I'm really focused on that. It, uh, it's, I start to go towards like metrics and really trying to like be attached to that. And what are the things I need to do? And it's almost like I'll do whatever it takes. Like, you know, I mentioned the spam thing at the beginning of this, like I'll do whatever it takes to move the numbers. And so, um, I don't think you or Carolina or people here would, would ever suggest anything like that, but. That's what I notice is my brain goes there. And so, um, the things that I've been doing lately that I think really help is focus more on the experiences that I'm creating. And so that's whether that's, you know, helping people through a book, um, experience or a membership program or a coaching program. Um, or, you know, I'm creating a retreat now in Finland this year. And so, yeah, I'm inviting people into experiences and what's the way that I can deepen that? And so that they have something that is transformative, that's meaningful, that isn't just transactional. And so I think that's actually one of the problems is when we start to just think of transactional things. I need more subscribers. I need a bigger audience. I need more money. I mean, more clients. Like, it's just like, I just need those people and they're just numbers, you know? But if we are focused on the experience we're creating for them, they feel that. It's a different quality of experience than, you know, the transactional one. There's a relationship that gets built. There's a way that they start to feel a heart connection to what you're doing. And then they'll share that with others. They'll come back as repeat customers. All of that stuff starts to flow from that, but. For me, I do not like to focus on those numbers too much. And you think you know that this about me, Phil? We work together closely. You know, for those of you who don't know, Phil was on my team for years and helped me to build some really good things. And, you know, he was in alignment with me, but I really resist focusing on numbers. I don't think they're unuseful. I don't, I think we can use them. But when I'm so focused on that, that I'm not focused on the experience or the relationship or any of that stuff, that's when I know that I've gotten attached. So, yeah.

Cool.

Cool.

Thanks for sharing. And we're going to, we'll be sharing, we put together a pretty nice little recap summary of this conversation. So we'll be sharing that with you in case you find it useful to share. But, you know, and I think it's scheduled to go out Friday. This week was weird. We usually just have one, but we ended up with two. 2 interviews this week, so I think we'll be sending that recap out on Friday. But for anyone who's—

what's that? I said mine's the better one of the 2 today.

I like the, uh, the confidence. Um, but, uh, but yeah, just for anyone who is not familiar with your work and is curious, you know, something in this conversation has piqued their interest or curiosity, uh, I know you're publishing here on Substack in some capacity now, but What would be kind of a recommended first step or something that you would suggest someone check out if they want to learn more about your work at Zen Habits?

Yeah, I actually would love everyone to check out my Substack if they haven't yet. So zenofdoing.substack.com and I'm publishing my book chapters on there. And my plan is to also expand to other blog posts and do little notes on there too. So check that out. But the main source of truth is the main website, which is zenhabits.net. Uh, you can subscribe to my email newsletter there. The other thing that I would, uh, have people consider is we're going to be opening up enrollment in the next month or so for my Fearless Mastery program, which Phil helped me to create. So I credit you. Um, but yeah, we have 3, uh, cohorts there, which is the Fearless Mastery Business, Creators, and Productivity. And so we have different levels there. So come check it out. It's our coaching program. And I think I'd really love for people to check that out. Yeah, the Finland one is probably going to be sold out soon, so I can't really invite people to that. Cool.

And I can attest, yes, I did help build the program, so there's a special place in my heart for that, but I can also attest to just because I just was doing a workshop with Lehto maybe last week. Yeah, just really good quality people in those programs. So Probably if you're listening to this, this conversation, you would definitely feel at home in any of Leo's communities.

So thank you.

Yeah, I would definitely encourage you to check out his work. So yes, thank you. As always, it's always good to reconnect, to do things like this. And, and yeah, thanks for sharing your time generously with, with us here today.

One quick question before we end. In my screen, I look high resolution and you two both look blurry. Is that how we are in real life? Like, uh, maybe your faces are just blurry. I don't know.

Maybe the audience can tell us. Maybe you have like a super camera because you're just like the boss, but to me, we all look about similar quality. I think I look the worst. I think I look the worst.

I was thinking your faces are just blurry in real life. If we're in the same room, I have nice hair.

I mean, yeah, you are aging quite nicely. So probably all of your Zen habits that you've got in place are really—

Oh my My birthday's tomorrow. I'm turning 53.

Oh, congratulations. Nice. Happy birthday.

Yeah, yeah.

Early happy birthday.

Cool.

Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you again and yeah, have a beautiful rest of your day and thank you for everyone who was here with us live. I appreciate you all being here and yeah, thanks everyone. Yeah, we'll be—

Thank you, Leo.

So nice to chat with you. Bye. Bye everyone.

Bye for now.

Thank you.

Bye, everybody.