105: Jared Sherlock - On Amazing Your Audience

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task. I love your giggle. Wow. Oh my gosh, so waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Hey movers, it's Sally Koering Zimney, and I'm super pumped to have on the show with me today Jared Sherlock, who is a magician. Not a musician, as I almost say like 3 times in the show. No, he is a magician, a comedian, a speaker, a performer. I met him about a year ago at an event that I was emceeing for our alma mater that we both attended, although— and Jared blew my mind because not only was he a skilled magician, but he was really thoughtful about what he was saying and how he was saying it. And so we talk about that today on the show— how to amaze people and still be really connected and thoughtful. And he takes this work really seriously. He's very clear on his, on his purpose as a magician, and I dig that. So I'm super excited for you to dig in with him Here he is, Jared Sherlock.

Oh, it's fine.

I love this stuff.

No, it's just fine.

I'm game. Cool. Well, I want to start by talking about what I remember from the Red Talks last year. So for people listening, Jared is a magician, and I'll have him tell more about who you are, Jared, and your history and your background in a second. But I was emceeing this event, and it is like an alum event for the college that we went to. And alums are invited to come up and share, and very, very briefly, like 5 to 10 minutes, but really we're going for 5, about—

It was definitely like 5. And if it wasn't, it totally felt that way, which was so challenging.

I know. I know. Yeah, and we debated, you know, this is the third or fourth year, and I think this year they're doing 10. But last year we were like, let's do 5. Let's put it out there as a challenge, and it becomes part of the, like, interesting things about the event, sort of like an Ignite talk, or, um, you know, uh, there's several, there's several different events that, that really structure it by a really tight short talk Anyway, so we, we had all these really interesting people come up and share their stories and who they are and what they're doing and what, what they are creating out in the world. And Jared, because we knew you're going to be amazing, Jared, we, we slotted you in at the end. And it literally, it blew my mind. I'm sitting there, I am 5 feet from you, and you did this really cool short 5-minute talk that the whole time I was like I was like, "What? Holy cow!" All I know is at the end, I was holding a bowling ball that was not there when you started.

That's correct, yeah. I had to hide it in unusual places.

I'm just like, "I still—" Yeah, a whole speech.

No, that was a lot of fun. You're very kind to say that that's why you put me at the end. I get the sense though that when I do these talks, because I am kind of the oddball with the magic element, it's very flattering to say that you put me at the end because you knew it was going to be amazing. But I get the sense secretly the subtext is like, it could be amazing, or who knows, it could be a car wreck, but at least at the end it's going to be interesting. Right. And then it's over. Yeah. And I'm okay to take that challenge.

No, I trusted that you would be good, partly because I saw some stuff online from you and I was like, oh, this guy's for real. So— Well, it was really fun.

So thank you for having me to be a part of that.

Yeah, I still remember the moment where you opened up a newspaper and a bowling ball fell out.

Oh, did I? Yeah. Did I do something with a newspaper there as well? Yeah. Must have. Yeah. Still totally confounded by it.

It was a moment. I'm like, what? Okay. So, yeah, that preface. Jared, tell us a little bit about how on earth did you get into magic?

You know, it started when I was about 8 years old, like most people are introduced to magic, as the plastic magic set. It was called a— it was Marshall Brody, and it was the name of a very popular magician back then. He'd also cornered the market on, you know, selling magic to kids. And I got a Marshall Brody magic kit from my grandparents. And incidentally, I ended up meeting Marshall Brody 15 years later at a magic conference. But I'm sure that I'm just a statistic of a kid that started out and stuck with it. But my grandparents gave me this, and I immediately opened it up and decided that I was going to put on a full magic show, not knowing that magic requires lots and lots and lots and lots of practice. It was a disaster. Predictably, everything went wrong. The quarter that was supposed to disappear fell out of the handkerchief onto the tile floor, making a very loud confirmation that the show was not going well, but my family clapped anyway. And much, probably to their surprise, that kindness of clapping for me in spite of all of the failure was the sort of unconditional love and support that was the same as them kind of supporting me and saying if this is something I wanted to do as I went on. That they would be there and that they would support it. So it kind of took off from there, doing birthday parties as a kid and walk around at restaurants where the restaurant people were kind enough, like these older people were kind enough to say, "Yeah, you can do an hour." I was busing tables at an Italian restaurant. It was my first job. The owner, who was a family friend, said for the last hour of the night I could go around and do some magic tricks. So I did that. Then when I went to high school, I took a liking to theater naturally. And did all the plays and got really heavy into acting and decided we were going to put on a big show. The director said, "Yeah, yeah, you can use the theater for a weekend." What he didn't know was that we were secretly planning this giant show where we had over 20 students from lighting designers to actors and dancers. There were 6 dancers in the show. We got these magic props, some that were loaned to me, some that we purchased, and we put on a huge show in cooperation with the Boy Scouts of America at the time to do a kind of a fundraiser. We packed the place and I think everybody was a little surprised that it ended up going off smoothly. At that point my dad said, "You know, you should think about doing this to make some money, to make a living at it, like as a business." It had never really occurred to me, so I just stuck on the path. I did a Theater— well, when I left high school, I did an entrepreneurship program in New York with the founder of Monster.com and some 50 other entrepreneurs from around the country. The guy, Andy McKelvey, said the same thing. Again, I was there in this room with all these tech guys and gals, and everybody had these businesses, some that were already 6 figures, and I'm just a magician there. I'm like, "Why am I here?" I think he just got a kick out of the fact that mine was so different and he gave me that same encouragement to make it a business. So when I went to college, I pursued business and theater. I did a double major and along the side continued performing, going out on the weekends on the road to do shows and it just kind of kept on going from there. Oh my gosh! It kind of just kept the momentum.

But you know what's striking me as you're talking is the bravery and the courage of at such a young age being like, yeah, I'm going to put on a big show and I'm going to do this. I mean, some of that is born from ignorance of like— Exactly.

—not being afraid. Bravery is often, in hindsight, maybe stupidity. In my case, that might have been it. I think it's a common thing you hear, like, if I had known what I was getting into, I might not have ever done it. And like you said, the ignorance is sometimes the best thing because it's true. I might not have ever pursued these things had I known the challenges ahead, but I'm so glad that I did.

Oh my gosh, I love it. So Jared, there's so much that I'm really excited to talk to you about, and one of the things that we share obviously is we were both trained in the same place. We went to college in the same place, although decades apart, but maybe not decades, I don't know, a long time. But we were really trained with the same philosophy of theater and it's really about collaboration and the craft and at least that's what I took from my theater experience in college. So I'm curious for you.

I don't know if we talked about this. Did you have like Tom Darnell as like a theater? You did. I did. I know. That's great. I only got to meet him— he guest directed when one of our directors, Adam Houghton, was abroad, who was my acting professor at the time. And so then you had Karen Johnston as well. Yes. Yep. She was my advisor, that amazing woman. She is like a hero of mine. She was so good to me. But yeah, Tom Darnell seemed like the coolest guy. And he was just before my time. And he came back. And everybody knows— this is so insider for people who aren't from the same place— but he's just this— fantastic, very well-liked theater practitioner, and he's a very tall man with a booming, deep voice, Shakespearean, you know, actor. And he's a very serious man in some respects as well. And I'd heard all about him, and the only time I ever met him, I didn't have my pants on. But wait, there's more. I should explain. I was in the dressing room after a show, and he came back. It was Macbeth, and I was the porter, and he came back to compliment us very sweetly, and it happened to be a point right where I had was changing and I was in my boxers and he came over and he was like, "Very nice," and he came in for a hug. So my only experience with him thus far in life, which he was great, was hugging him just in boxers. Yeah, Tom Darnell. So that's a little bit of a side story, but I'm delighted to know that we have that same past.

Well, I got to be in King Lear with Tom. He played King Lear and Karen directed it. And I was Regan, and I just— it was, it was my sophomore year and it was kind of my first big role at St. Ben's and St. John's, and, and I just loved that experience so much to be able to work with a professional like Tom with his level of experience. I learned so, so, so, so much, and he was amazing. And I've— I consider us bonded for life because of that. And he They were my family, those people. Those professors were truly my family and I love them forever because they changed my life.

Yeah, I think the theater program— yeah, theater programs are unique in that way that because unlike— and not to say it's better in any way, it's just different. It's unlike maybe a business major or even like a communications or— maybe the closest thing might be something like a nursing degree or with people who go through a medical field. But because of the vulnerability I think that's required and the honesty through the training that you do in a theater program, whether it's a liberal arts like us or a conservatory program even more so, I understand, it just requires you to be really honest with yourself and with the other people there in order to create affecting work. You kind of leave with maybe just a little something extra in terms of that, like what you're talking about, that community that you develop and the relationship with those professors becomes much more vulnerable because of the sort of life conversations you have to have when you're exploring and taking apart a work to present for an audience because so much of theater has to deal with very heavy subjects in life and our existence. It's all kind of meddling with that imitation of life and to do that you have to get really close. So it's kind of a nice— perk that you get from that sort of training, that you have maybe a little more depth in those relationships than other majors.

It makes the experience of creating so rich and so, um, just powerful. And I, and I do think those relationships, uh, are forever special to me because of that. And yeah, yeah. So, well, what I wanted to do is actually to, to bridge for me, if you would, your experience in theater to what you do as a magician. And because there, you know, there's this certain level of show, right? And, um, but it's, but it's you up there by yourself. So you kind of are in this interesting landscape. Obviously much of my audience are speakers or people who want to become speakers, creative people who want to really do something with their work. So you have— this space that it takes is kind of not in either of those places.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a little bit of both. You know, magic, it's part science and part showmanship, as author Jim Steinmayer likes to point out. The apparatus that we're using as performers, as magicians, is all based in science. Magic is even a pre-science, and it comes with all of this psychology and engineering to create these objects and the optical illusions and the effects that you see on stage. It takes great time from that side because there are illusion builders and designers. Then it has to be presented, and that kind of is in the Venn diagram emerging speaking and acting and performing. I I probably am butchering it like everybody else, but there's a really famous quote by Robert-Houdin, who's actually who Houdini— he was the father of modern magic, Robert-Houdin, and Houdini was so enamored by him and his work, that's how he found his name, changing it to Houdini. He said that a magician is just an actor playing the part of a magician. I think I butchered that, but that's the gist of it, which is It's really not too different than an actor in that way, but like you said, it's a solo endeavor in a majority of magicians' work that you see. The crossover to theater, I think, is that— I can't phrase it better than maybe Teller from Penn Teller did when I had the opportunity to interview him during my time in college. He said that the goal— when people go into, and I'm paraphrasing of course, into a theater, the initial impulse is to be amazed, and that magic is an art form that most directly addresses that impulse because if, by nature of a trick, if the magic trick succeeds and you're fooled by the trick, if you're amazed by it, it's already accomplished the immediate goal of why people step into a theater or into a performance space to watch someone speak or stand on there in a communal experience. If the magic trick doesn't work or the audience isn't impressed, it's failed immediately. So there's no option other than to succeed with it. That can be a pretty powerful experience in itself. It's very thrilling to see the world work incorrectly in that way, particularly as an adult, as people get cynical and skeptical. If a magic trick is performed well and constructed well, it effectively does exactly what people want when they go to see a show. That's just one way that you could argue it. I think that's the way he looks at it, and I think there are many ways to see that. I feel very similarly. About that, and I thought that that was kind of a good way to look at it in relationship to theater. But of course, the element then that separates it is that some magic doesn't have a good narrative. You want to know why. And so I think when I look at my speaking and when I do speaking engagements, or when I'm performing even just as a magician and comedian, a narrative is a huge part about it, because the trick itself can be brilliant and fantastic and really clever, but unless there's a compelling narrative or story, I think that it's missing something really essential and is not going to be as strong.

I love what you're talking about, all of that, and really what you're pulling out. I've seen you do this, and it's part of why I thought it was so interesting when I saw you speak at the Red Talks, because what you were talking about was the importance of maintaining your privacy as a magician in terms of how you do what you do. And while you were talking about that, you were doing the magic. And so it was really powerful and it stuck with me in a way that it wasn't just about entertainment, but there was meaning that you were pulling out for us.

Oh, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Thanks. Yeah, I— that's probably the greatest strength, if you will, of my work as a speaker is that with the magic, supporting element of the magic, if I can pepper in those things into the script and the dialogue of what I'm talking about, and it certainly can spice up a moment that's too thick or maybe where an audience might— where you might have risk of boring your audience. For instance, like at the TED Talk where I decided to talk about intellectual property law in the magic industry. That can get a little hairy. So throw in a, you know, a bowling ball from thin air and people maybe listen a little longer.

Yeah, totally mind-blowing. It's crazy. So as you're talking about this, you know, one of the things I'm kind of hearing and we're talking around a little bit, but that I walked into this conversation today wanting to talk about with you is this idea of, uh, the show versus, um, who you are. And, and you did a really nice job of keeping, you know, the amazement and the, the trickery of it, right? The illusion of it was so well done. But I also still felt connected to you on a human level, and I feel like that's really important, and you don't always see that, especially when it becomes about the trickery or about the— just about the amazement. I don't know. What do you think about that?

I mean, it seems like you're asking kind of about how do you— it seems like we're kind of focusing in on sort of an authenticity on stage, which, like, when you're speaking, when you're presenting. And I don't— it's one of those things that I'm constantly thinking about and trying to ensure that I have as a part of my performances. But it's really hard to tell and it's really hard for me to even say with any confidence that I have that strength because it's very subjective to the eye of the audience member. I think particularly, I'm still early-ish in my career. I've been performing and speaking and going on tour for the last 5 years since I graduated college. I've been doing that full-time as a professional with no other job or income other than that. I think that that's not that much time. I remember when I first started it, all the performers that I was talking to and some of which were Vegas headliners all the way to people that you've never heard of that have made their living doing it. They basically just said, "Get on stage as much as you can because you're not going to— you're green. You don't know what you don't know, but you also don't know who you are on stage. The only way to find that out is to be on stage all the time because the way that you think, even the way that you breathe as a performer on stage is very different than off." know every part of yourself in that way. You have to be able to, in certain ways, actors work really hard on this to get rid of all of their habits, to shower away all of the things that make them them so that they can start with a blank canvas when they're on stage and then through that performance find authenticity and meaning and then share that with the audience. And that's why when you see, I think it's often when you see performers or even dancers and they have this fantastic posture and the way that they walk, walk and how articulate they are when they speak sometimes can be mistaken for arrogance or something like that, but it's really just a high attention to detail as to they just have more time spending time thinking about how they walk, how they speak, how they go about it. I think I'm still learning a lot about that and trying to figure out exactly who I am on stage so that I can tell a story better and so that an audience can feel like they are with me, you know, that they believe me, that they trust me. But I think it's an important thing, and I don't know, other than just continuing to keep doing what I'm doing, how to unpack it anymore.

That's part of the reason why I wanted to talk with you about it, because especially as a muji— I almost called you a musician. A muji-shian. It happens all the time.

I've been introduced at I've been introduced at events right when I'm about to go on stage. The person will say, "A musician!" You know, like, and I'm like, "Oh, well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is going to be a very different show." Yeah.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one doing that. But as a magician, there's another layer on the complexity of authenticity as a performer because as an actor, you go through this process of, like you said, peeling away so that you can then put back on the character, right? And, and in a way that feels right to you, like you have to find yourself in the character in some ways. And that's one approach maybe. But as a magician, you, you are yourself up there, but you're also, you know, creating illusion. Which for some people can be this barrier to connection in some ways.

I get what you're saying. I think there's two elements to it. I am myself up there, but I'm also kind of a character of myself. The way I go through life, I'm not constantly like zinging people or going, you know, having— there's a different energy to it. Again, the brain's working differently, thinking, analyzing the audience members, trying to figure out who my marks are, who's going to be great to bring up on stage. Of course, you have the script running and the delivery is— you're aiming for that perfect delivery where you're physically doing all of these actions and you're delivering something in a way that hopefully the audience feels like it's natural and it's the first time. When you go see a comedian like Louis C.K., who I think is just a master, just the best at what he does. It looks like he sucks you in and makes you think that that joke he's telling is happening organically for the first time right in front of you. What you don't realize is that he's done that 200 times and that every eyebrow raise, every breath, every movement and shift of his hands or his eyes is carefully tuned. That he's maximizing every laugh and every effect of the joke and you feel like Oh man, was that a mistake? Did he mean to do that? And, uh, and so trying to find that, um, in the performances is, I think, the most challenging, you know, to deliver it fresh. Absolutely. I heard, I heard somebody say once, uh, that performance, you know, being a variety performer, getting on stage is like, uh, is like, uh, for people that saw the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray and went, oh, that looks like a lot of fun, I'm gonna do that for the rest of my life. Because you get up, you get up on stage and do the same thing over and over again. I can't remember who said that. That might have been Penn Jillette who said that, but he was basically just saying it's an opportunity like in that movie. You get up and you do the same thing over and again, and it's an opportunity though to do something perfect, perfectly, to get up there and keep trimming the fat and making it leaner and making it better. That's a cool way to look at it. I've probably just rambled and gone off away from what you were really trying to get at. What was the other part of what you were just asking? I want to follow the rules of conversation, but I— No, it's okay. That's what happens. I'm like squirrel, just follow it.

Well, it's such a complex idea to begin with, and a lot of speakers wrestle with this idea of authenticity. It's one of those things where you're like, It is subjective, but you also are like, "Oh, I sort of know it when I see it." Right, exactly. In an audience, just like— It's not very helpful for speakers.

It is tough, yeah, because you can't really teach some of those things. That's not to say there's this secret that's like, "You can't do it," because I've always felt like I can't do it. You're trying to— It's just you have to just do it so much that you're not even not even thinking about it. But yeah, I— an audience can tell right away if you're not being genuine, if you're not being authentic, if you're phoning it in. Some audiences will tell you more than others. Even I sense it. It's like one night something goes really, really well and I go and I try and recreate it and then it flops and it bombs. I clearly get this glazed-over look from the audience and I realize it's because it's not happening naturally, you know, the way— and there's no way that I can— you know, the only way I can do it is record it, listen to it, think about it. But there's not like a way I can break that down. It's not like because I said a certain word the wrong way. It's this intangible thing that happens between you and the people you're speaking to that only they get to decide if they feel that you're present and that they trust you. I think that what you were asking originally was with magic, there is an element of it that's kind of complicated, even maybe you could say morally so, because I'm trying to get an audience to trust me so that I can— Trick them. Sort of, yeah. There is that dynamic where it's like, "Trust me. This is for fun. Trust me and suspend your disbelief for a few moments." "Allow me to try and show you something you haven't seen before that maybe fools your senses." I think that historically, that's an interesting element of magic that some people have done so rather immorally because they— and we still see it today with psychics and mediums that are saying, "Trust me," and they're playing on people's insecurities and then using basically what are magic tricks, swindling, and then taking advantage of people. I think people are really weary about that today, particularly like we're seeing it in the political climate. People want somebody that they can trust, somebody that they're speaking honestly, that's a good person. I think magicians and speakers have a huge moral obligation, not just magicians, but anybody that gets on a microphone and tries to share an idea has this huge moral obligation to really consider the words that they're sharing with an audience and to make sure that they're not misleading anybody. Magicians have certainly a burden with that. They need— there are some magicians that they tell you— that's the thing. A magician tells you that they're going to fool you and then they fool you. It's not saying that this is real and now believe in this thing I'm selling.

Right. For $29.99, you can have that.

Exactly. But that's still out there. That's alive and well. So it's on the rest of us to present and speak in a way that that give— that is honest.

Well, and what you're saying really flips the coin on that as you talk about the, the why, that there is amazement, that people can— we can be amazed at what is possible, and, and that if we can suspend our disbelief, we can experience something magical. And, and to feel like a kid again and be like, "Whoa, that is so cool." That is a beautiful experience that is worthwhile to create.

Whether it's a magic trick or whether it's a speaker or an actor in a show, it's all the same. I think John Lithgow, the actor, said it, that an actor, a performer, right up front makes a deal with the audience. You make an agreement and the audience makes it with you. It's got to be mutual and consenting that they're going to follow you. And if you do so sincerely, they will. They'll follow you anywhere and you can tell your story. So it starts right up front and I've always liked that way of thinking about it. From the second you walk on stage, you're basically asking for that agreement, for the audience to trust you and then to have them follow you on your story. I think that that's true of anybody, whether it's a speaker or a magician or an actor. Or a TV personality. It's the same sort of thing.

I love that. Woo! Woo! Write that down. You're like the master of, "So-and-so once said," and then dropping—

Somebody's going to bust me on it because they're going to be on Twitter and I'm sure I'm wrong. I'm sure. I'll preface all this by saying I'm sure I'm butchering some of the these quotes. I read and listen to as much as I can and what that ultimate— Humans have a terrible capacity to remember specifics or recall sort of those visual details. We're terrible recording devices. I'm sure that I'm no exception to that rule and that I'm messing a bunch of these up. The general gist is there and I apologize for anybody that I've misquoted.

Hey, sounds good to me. Yeah. Jared. I'm eating it up.

Yeah, but bust me on it. Bring it on, trolls. Yeah.

Okay, so Jared, we are at the time in the show where we, you and I, will share a This Moved Me moment, something that has moved us recently so that as performers, as speakers, as a mu— I almost said it again— as a magician.

You can call me whatever you want.

My musician friend Jared Sherlock. No, I'm a terrible musician, but we're going to have some fun.

Yeah.

But as performers, magicians, speakers, we ourselves stay fed and inspired so that we can amaze people up on stage. So I'm going to start and then I'll hand it over to you. So my, my This Moved Me moment this week is a Radiolab episode. Do you listen to Radiolab?

Yeah, yeah, it's not the one I listen to most frequently. I think I'm kind of more diehard This American Life, but they're paired together on the NPR scheduling, so I catch a lot of Radiolab too. It's fantastic.

Oh my gosh, they always have something really meaty, and I love how it's edited together, and I love Jad Abumrad.

And yeah, oh my God, he won the— he won the journalist, like, story of the year this year, didn't he? Yeah, something. I think he did the a piece about a war veteran that won. They do such great work.

Yeah. Amazing. So they had an episode this week called Debatable, and it blew my mind for so many reasons because it's about the field of debate. And I was in high school speech. I was not in debate. But before I even listened to the show, I probably had 4 or 5 5 people send me a note on Facebook saying, "Have you listened to this Radiolab episode? You're gonna love it. You're gonna love it." I was like, you know, it had so much buildup. I was like, I gotta give myself some time and space to listen to this show. And I finally had a long enough commute yesterday that I listened to it. And it brings up race and white privilege. It talks about the role of communication, how we communicate. It talks about Aristotle and persuasion, which was my topic in grad school. I looked at Aristotle's three types of persuasion and kind of dug into it a little bit. But the moment that moved me just so much that I, I almost had to pull over in the car because I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is Mm, so good, was this, this, uh, debater who's an African-American man in college. It was his final debate. He had made it to the finals of this huge tournament, and he and his partner, both two African-Americans, and were spent years in debate talking about how they debate and how the the way in which that most, uh, kind of traditional debate happens is based on this, you know, white understanding and this white reality, and that we, as, as a white person, we— the, the way that we're debating is actually reflecting our world anyway. Oh yeah. Um, and, and so these— this, this young man in, in this moment, his final debate, his final speech, and he, he says he hardly remembers it. It was like this, this moment where this otherworldly thing happened, and he— I don't remember the word that he used, but essentially he said he just like spoke from his gut, and he just goes off about how excluded that they have been and shut down. And that, that if we want debate to be a home, we have to change what home is. And like, it was— yeah, it was— wow— unbelievable and really challenging because, yeah, you've got to listen to the episode, but, but I'm going right there. That moment right there was— it was guttural. And it was passion. And I believe him when he says he doesn't even remember saying it. He threw away the script and it just came out. Like he had some things he needed to say. That's great.

I love that when it's captured too. I will definitely be listening to that. That reminds me of Tig Notaro, who's a comedian who really blew up fame-wise a couple years ago because Louis C.K. was in the audience. I feel like I've mentioned him too many times now. He was in the audience and she was supposed to do a set at the Largo in LA and ended up coming on stage. She had her whole set planned. At this point in her life, she had been going through a lot. It's well documented and it's been all over if you look up Tig Notaro. I had been just familiar I'd been here with her for the month before I had discovered her. Then she goes out, and in the previous few months, she'd had a life-threatening illness. Her mother had died, and then she was diagnosed after this other illness with cancer, with breast cancer. She found all this news out that day, not all that, but the cancer diagnosis. She walked out on stage, and she just opened. People are clapping, and she just opened with, "Hello." I have cancer. And then she ended up doing a full set that was completely unscripted, unprepared, talking about everything that's been going on in her life. Woo! And it's very different than what you're describing in the subject matter, but in terms of getting on stage and then just having something that comes from deep within and not even knowing that you were gonna say those things, and then the way that people actually listen and are able to respond. I can't recommend that comedy bit more. There's no video of it, but you can look that up as well, that comedy set. It was mind-blowing and really, really humbling.

I wish I could see it.

Yeah, me too. I wish I was there. When people are truly honest on stage, when they let down their guard and they don't speak measured, like what you were describing, and I think we see that with political candidates right now in this campaign. It's like everything that so many of The candidates are saying it has to be so measured. Every word has to be carefully thought out. But when people just speak, I mean, sometimes it can go horribly wrong if you just speak from your heart.

Well, there's maybe a really bad example happening right now of somebody who just is completely careless. Exactly. I'm not going to name names.

Yeah, I'm sure nobody knows who we're alluding to. But people are responding to that. That quality even though there's hate and other things in that. But imagine if the people that really do have truth to share like that young man— you said he was young, right?

Yeah, he was a senior in college at the time. Right.

So if the people that actually have truth and honesty to share spoke in that way, then we'd get more gold like that. Yeah. And we'd be better for it. I love it. Passion, man.

Yeah. Pure passion. Right? Well, Jared, how about you?

It's really hard because I'm sure everybody that gets asked this question says it, but like you, I could just— almost every episode of This American Life leaves me just like you pulling over and going, "Wow," and really contemplating it. Like listening to Neil deGrasse Tyson and talk about astrophysics and just thinking about the size of the universe, just that sort of stuff. I feel like there's not a moment, there's not a day that goes by without something that's just completely moving. But if I had to pick, this is not totally something recent, yours was awesome 'cause it just happened. I went back when I was kind of thinking This week, one morning, I went back and I watched a commencement speech. I love watching commencement speakers, particularly notable personalities. I went back and I watched a commencement speech that the actor Jim Carrey gave at a university. I think it was in 2014. Did you see that by any chance, Sally?

I haven't. It's in my very long list of things to watch. So this will bump it up.

Yeah, you've got to watch it. I go and I watch all of them from like— I think Steve Jobs gave a great one. I love Conan O'Brien, Tim Minchin. This one really resonated with me just in the things that he was talking about, and I found it to be really, really affecting. He had a line in there where he talked about his— and it kind of goes to what you were asking me at the beginning of this. He had a line in there where he was talking about about his father. This one I'm not going to quote loosely because I didn't want to mess it up. He said, "So many of us choose our path out of fear disguised as practicality and what we really want seems impossibly out of reach and ridiculous to expect, so we never dare to ask the universe for it." He tells this bit about his family. He says, "My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn't believe it was possible for him, so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant, and when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job and our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, he said, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don't want, so you might as well take a chance on doing what you love. Woo! I love that. I was sitting in front of my computer crying. The way it was, it was so honest and it's so well spoken. It's so true and comes to the core of like so many people that are speakers or performers or creative actors that are trying to offer something to people, to do something to change the world for a better place. And you, you gotta go for it. Sometimes you just have to put all of your eggs eggs in the same basket, as my friend and mentor Bill Pelfrey would say. Put all your eggs in one basket. If you split them up and you hedge your— you split up your eggs, you hedge your risk, which is a natural impulse, but your return can be minimal. But if you put all your eggs in one basket while the risk is terrifying, the reward you could find at the end of it is incalculable. The amount that you could achieve by doing that. I thought Jim Carrey just bottles that up so perfectly for anybody that's ever wanted to do something different, even not a performer, but somebody like somebody who's created new technology that wants to share that with the world or a scientist that wants to share a new idea or philosophy or that young man that you talked about that was speaking from his heart. Why not do it? Why not ask for it? And that, I don't know, that had me. So that's, that's what moved me recently. And it's not old, but I keep going back to it to allow it to keep moving me.

It's still moving me. It's still working for you. So, oh, I love it. I will go watch that today because it feels very apropos in my life. And I'm sure anybody who's doing creative work, like you said, to continue to push ourselves because if we're going to fail being miserable, because we're gonna, you're gonna fail, we're gonna fail, you might as well fail doing something.

Well, and it's so short. Everything that we're experiencing here is so short. That's why Thornton Wilder's Our Town is my favorite play and my favorite book, you know, and it's done in high schools all over because it's very affordable and there's no set and it's done, that's the way it's done. But the whole premise, it's about early 19— it was written in the 1930s, so it's about 1901 to 1913, about this town Grover's Corners and this story of this young woman, Emily. But it's really just about existence and saying, do you realize life while you live it, every minute? And it all goes so fast, and why not pursue and enjoy every moment in the way that you want and for the things that your heart desires. That's— yeah, I don't know.

That's it. That's it. That's a wonderful note to end the show on, Jared. I'm so thrilled that we could find some time and have this conversation a whole year after I got to see you on stage. But we did it.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on, Sally. It's really nice speaking with you. And man, I wish we could just do this every morning. I know. I know.

Yes. Like, tomorrow. You are full of just amazing quotes and insight and the depth that you dig into in terms of the purpose of your work and why we as performers and creatives, why we are doing what we are doing. That's my jam. I'm digging it.

You asked all the right questions. So that's great.

Good. Great. I loved it. Oh, well, thank you.

It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Oh, that was so cool!

Jared, thanks for joining me in that conversation. I loved the depth that he brought to that conversation because on the surface you think, oh, magician, you know, fancy, cool, whatever, but there is so much more happening there. And I love the questions we got to about authenticity and connection and how we really amaze people. And it's brought up a lot of stuff about audience. So after I recorded that episode, I recorded an episode that you will hear next week, a mini Moved Me, about breaking down that fourth wall and creating that connection and bringing your audience into the same space with you so that it feels intimate. It feels like you are talking to them. And of course, oftentimes Our audience are the ones that put up that wall, so it's up to us as speakers to break down that wall and to bring everybody into the same space. So look for that next week. I'm excited about that because that is a big passion of mine. So this past weekend, I got to actually be in an audience where there was no wall, where it felt like the connection and the intimacy in the conversation we were having in the room was so powerful. And that was with the amazing Rob Bell. If you don't know about Rob Bell, you got to go check him out. He's got a podcast called The Robcast, and, and, oh, he's just, he's mind-blowing in so many ways. What he talks about, but also the way in which he communicates, is so incredibly powerful. So I'm obviously a big fan, and I'm gonna get him on the show. So if anybody knows Rob and you can reach out for me, thank you in advance. Let's do this. Let's make it happen. I would love to have him on the show. I'm working on it. But it, it, it was such a cool experience and I'm doing some writing about that. So be on the lookout for that. It's on my website, thismoveme.com. But if you are somebody who just wants to be in the know And when I write something, um, and I send out a weekly newsletter that's got all kinds of information on it about who I'm talking to, um, what I'm learning, and the insight and inspiration that I'm gathering and garnering from the guests that I get to work with and passing it along to you. So, uh, if you're into that, uh, go to my website, thismovedme.com, and you can sign up for the newsletter, which would be great. Then, you know, you won't even have to think about it. It's coming straight to you. How cool is that? Great. And really, most importantly, thanks for hanging with me. Thanks for being involved. Thanks for joining me on the journey. I always love to hear from you. Send me an email, info@thismovedme.com. You can find me on Twitter @thismovedme and Facebook and whatever, all the, all the places. I'm out there. Connect with me because that's what this work is all about for me. So thanks, this moved me. What's moving you? I do really want to know, I do.