112: Rob Bell - On How Speaking is Spiritual

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task. I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh, so waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet.

Hey movers, it's Sally Koering Zimney Zimney, and it is the beginning of season 3.

I'm so excited.

I'm so excited. There are so many exciting things coming our way, and so I just want to dive right in. But of course, I find myself at the coffee shop, so it's kind of noisy. But somebody told me once they kind of liked it when I do my on-the-spot intros because it feels very real. So here I am bringing you my real. Here's the deal with today and the episode that we are about to dive into, the beginning of season 3, which means I've been doing this for almost 2 years, and I love it. And kicking off season 3 is the biggest thrill that I've had the honor of having on the show, and that is having a conversation with Rob Bell. And Rob Bell, if you don't know, he is a New York Times bestselling author of the book Love Wins. He wrote What We Talk About When We Talk About God. He wrote this really cool book called The Zimzam of Love with his wife. And his most recent book is called How to Be Here. And that is how I actually connected and got to know Rob. I went to, got to go hear him speak and did a lot of writing about it and just reached out to him one day and said, can we connect? I'd love to have you on the show and talk more about this. And that's what we did. He very graciously accepted. And we had the best conversation, a 45-minute chat. That's how it felt. Um, you know, I, I was so focused on just being present with him that I didn't honestly— usually I just scramble around and take tons and tons of notes, but this felt like just a real friend connection. So that was, that was really cool. Um, he has been on Oprah. He has been profiled in The New Yorker. In 2011, he was Time Magazine's one of the 100 most influential people in the world. What?

Holy cow.

Um, but let me— if you're a podcaster, if you're listening to this, or you're a podcast person, then please tell me that you also listen to his show, The Robcast, because it, it's really, um, It's really special, and I love how he has taken away all the trappings and the, you know, there's no cheesy intro. It is just him talking, and I think that there's something really beautiful about that. Okay, Rob Bell, I'm really grateful for you and all the work that you're doing and the kind of change that you are out to make in this world. So, movers, this guy is not just impressive and has all the accolades that someone of his caliber would have. Yes, he's got all that, but this list of accolades would be infinitely longer if you could name all the people that he has impacted and inspired and changed. And one of those people is me. So I'm so thrilled to bring you this conversation. Here he is, Rob Bell. All right, Sally Koering Zimney Zimney.

Here we are.

I I am so excited to be talking with you. I can't even stand it.

You're fantastic. I read some of your writing. Oh, thanks. I love what you're doing. You're just— and I remember your question. You were like over to this side, back row, maybe second or third from the end of the little aisle there, and you asked a question about what had been happening all day.

Yes. What was happening in the room?

And all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, that lady gets it at a whole other level." She's like, not just here, she's like actually noticing the thing that we're actually doing.

Well, it's funny because people have been telling me for years, "You've gotta check out Rob Bell, you've gotta check out Rob Bell." And frankly, I was a little nervous because somebody said you were evangelical.

I know.

Yeah.

I know, I mean, I know that you would cringe. I would cringe.

I'm sorry. And I shouldn't do that. Why? Well, because you're judgy. That was judgy, right? But you know, I'm this progressive Catholic who doesn't go to church much. So, you know, Bible is like this foreign thing to me. Yeah. But all these people were like, you will love him, you've gotta check out Rob Bell. And so enough signs came to me, and then I discovered your podcast and I absolutely love it. Like every time an episode comes out, I'm just like, hee hee, yay. So I'm so glad I found you. And then when you were coming to Minneapolis, I just jumped, jumped at the chance. Because if you've done some reading about what I do, then you know I'm a speaking coach and, you know, a mom and whatever. But I feel the spiritual— that's the part that I love about coaching speakers is like bringing them to the stage, like bringing their story out into the world. And it does feel like spiritual work. But you put it—

Absolutely.

It was so cool to be in the room that day because I felt all this stuff happening in the room. I was like, this is what it's about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And every way in which you can create a setting that people don't have— like, you put it in that club with no introduction, no clutter, no staging, and You've just removed that many more things that could get in the way of somebody actually hearing whatever it is they need to hear.

Right.

Like every little bit that you are intentional to not let anything get in the way, it just means more things often happen.

Right.

And there was so much happening in the room that day. That's got to be just the wildest experience as you're out doing this, because so many people just want to be with you and be in that space with you and just want to like pick your brain. And it's got to be really intense.

Yeah, and you would find it fascinating, um, the exact same questions any city anywhere in the world. Like, you would be like, oh my word, this is the same thing that happened in Miami. Huh, this is the similar— like, just swap out a couple little variations, otherwise And there's a couple of things regionally that are in the room that aren't in other places, but otherwise, yeah, it's like people are people wherever you go.

Okay, well, I'm so jazzed. So you mentioned in one of your talks, I've watched many, many of your talks at this point, but you mentioned the first time that you gave a sermon. Could you bring me to that moment? With you because obviously it's a core part of your craft. Oh yeah, yeah.

Well, I was in a band. I was in a band all through college and we thought we were gonna be the next great thing. And then the band broke up 'cause everybody had to get jobs like they do. And I was teaching water skiing in Northern Wisconsin the summer after college. And the people who worked on the waterfront were in charge of this like Sunday morning sort of faith service, and I volunteered to give the sermon at it, and I don't know what possessed me. And I came out of band world, so if you make something, you throw yourself into it, and you want to engage everybody. And this is art we're doing here. And so that's sort of how I approached the sermon, and I had mostly, I had seen sermons as boring, you know what I mean? Sermons that were essentially how you convince people to build bigger buildings or how you tell people that they're right and everybody else is wrong, but I just didn't see it that way. And I put together this sermon, which I still have the notes from, but when I got up to give it, I took off my Birkenstocks because I realized, I had this sense like my life was never gonna be the same again. Like I was on some sort of holy ground, like this was, what I was here to do and followed quickly by you could be terrible at this, but at least you'd like it. At least you'd love it. At least it would get you out of bed in the morning. So that's where I always— it's always interesting to me when people want to communicate or want to be speakers, they want to be writers or they want to give— I know a guy who when he's asked what his career goal was, he said to be a keynote speaker. Yeah. Which I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is this— in you. Is this something in you that you have to do this because it's in you and whether people listen or care, that's all secondary to you have something in you that you need to get out.

Right.

Yeah. It's a frustration I see when I'm working with speakers and on the whole the speakers who come to me are speakers who want to bring a particular message out into the world that is very purpose-driven.

Yes.

And every once in a while I've had a conversation with a speaker who is just a keynote speaker. I shouldn't necessarily say just, but they're a speaker who their draw is speaking, not necessarily a purpose-driven draw. And I can feel that difference.

Having something to say.

Yeah, exactly. So I think the The audience can feel that. And, you know, it's just that struggle, the ego struggle that we've got to have enough ego to have the chutzpah to, like, get up there and say, I have something important to say and I know this is worthwhile. And balance that with the humility of knowing that you don't know everything and that this audience is bringing their own knowledge into the room and, you know, that mix. Does that make sense?

Absolutely, absolutely. And at some level, um, you have to find this really interesting. Something— you, you experienced something, you tasted something, you witnessed something, and you want to help others see what you saw.

—Mm-hmm.

—So this is not about how great you are, how much you know. This is about something that you have experienced and the joy of whatever that was. Of course you'd want other people to see that. —Right. —Which is such a different posture. And if you can get to that, which is interesting why you talked about how so much of your work has a spiritual dimension to it. Yes, we can talk about how to structure it. Yes, we can talk about how to memorize. Yes, we can talk about emotional resonance or pacing, But unless you have a thing in there that's worth giving to people, then it's just techniques and tools. Absolutely, yeah.

And there's plenty of really great resources out there, sort of the how-to, but what really draws me in is the magic of what can happen. Yeah. Like what? Yeah, yeah. Ah, so— Yes. Yes, I mean, that's why— That's why I do this. That's why you do what you do. So will you share with everybody what we talked about a little bit in Minneapolis when you were talking about like, what does actually happen? Something— I feel it, but what is it? What is happening when somebody is standing up there and speaking from a place of authenticity and an audience is changed by that in some way.

Yeah, I mean, there's one level at which, for some people, the communication exists at simply the level of transmission. You have information and you want to give it to these people, so you repeat whatever it is you were told, whether it's medicine, religion, academics, science, whatever it is. It's just the transmission of— Aw, puppy! There's my dog barking.

Whoa!

So there's just a sort of transmission level. Then there's what I would call translation level, which is you have this body of information and you're going to try to put it in language, new language for these people. So you're coming up with what's the image, what's the illustration, what's the metaphor, what's the story you can tell to take this information and actually try to put it in language that these people actually speak. But then there's this really interesting— so there's transmission, there's— I made all this up, by the way— there's translation, and there's— then there's what I would call transformation, which is when something did something to you. Um, you learned how to forgive somebody who wronged you. You overcame some cynicism and found some wonder and awe. And so then when you're speaking, you are witnessing to that which transformed you. You climbed a mountain, even if it was you are less, you spent less time today thinking of ways to kill your ex. You know what I mean? Like that's progress. We have a little less bitterness today.— but you climbed that mountain, and now you are telling people about the mountain you climbed. Like, here's what I learned about forgiving my ex, my former business partner. Here's what I learned about perseverance. And that's— when you get into that space, you have the universal and you have the particular. You have the details of your story, which are the particulars, and then you have the universal truths that that illustrates. And the really great communicators know when they're dealing with particulars and when they're dealing with universals. So the other day I land at LAX and I get in, I get out of the airport and I get in one of those shuttles that takes you to your parking space where your car is parked, but in LA it's like a 20-minute drive. And there's this guy driving the, parking space rental, the shuttle, and he's in a blue polo and he's a large man. He's probably 6'4". His name is Neil Senior on his tag. And Neil Senior sits down and I say to him, because I sit in a little jump seat, "How you doing today?" And he says, "I woke up this morning." That's his answer. Like, how do you think I'm doing? I woke up. I'm doing great. So that story, there are the particulars of the story, which is how big he is, what he's wearing, his name tag, the orange— the yellow shuttle van with the black spots on it because it's called the Parking Spot. And then there is the universal gratitude that you're here and you're breathing. Right. And I think what creates space and the space that gets created, a great communicator understands they're working with particulars, but they understand the universal that they are taking people into. And it's like this woman is telling a story about her sister-in-law Carol with a red cardigan who lives in Des Moines and has cancer, and suddenly every friend of yours who's ever suffered, you're like, "I know that story." And I think that's what happens is you, You are doing something very focused and particular, but you understand that it's also as wide as every human being ever. Right. Yes. And I think what that does is it creates space where people go, "Oh, that fishing trip with Darrell. I've been on a fishing trip with Darrell. We weren't fishing and his name wasn't Darrell, but I know what you're talking about." Yes. And I hear lots of communicators who they talk in universals, love and hope and solidarity and compassion, but they have no flesh and bone. It's just, "We can do this. We can all do this. We can be better. We can improve. You can take steps." It's just big, nice ideas. I've also heard communicators who have these stories, they get bogged down in the particulars. They're telling you way too many details about something, and I don't have any idea what this has to do with anything. And they've missed— sometimes what happens is I'll like literally say to people, you realize that story is great and you don't even realize how great that story is.

That the universal exists within the particulars. And you—

yes, the people I know who have told me stories who they were clueless as to what was sitting right there in the story. You're like, wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop. Tell me more. What was that like? What'd that feel like? What was that? And all of a sudden you realize that's a pretty interesting story. It is. Yeah. That's how you interview people.

I don't know, you probably know that. I don't know if you're fully conscious of it. When you interview, you're like, oh, oh, okay, tell me more. I want to dig into that. Exactly. I'm sure you're looking for those those details that make the specific universal, you know?

'Cause I think— Oh yeah, yeah, I met a woman the other day who said that she was a nurse and that she had retired. I said, "When did you retire?" And I think it was like last year. "Oh really?" I said, "How long were you a nurse?" And it was like 40 years or something. "Wow, was there a day recently when was the last day of being a nurse?" "Uh, yeah." "And what was that like? Did you have a box of stuff that you carried out to your car?" "Mm-hmm." "What was it like when you drove out of the parking lot the last time? How many years in a row had you driven to that parking lot?" "Oh, 24." "What was it like the next morning when you woke up and you didn't go to work as a nurse?" And it was just a passing, "I used to be a nurse." "Right." But you're just 2 questions in What was it like to wake up that— what did you do the next day after being a nurse for 37 years or whatever it was? That's suddenly really interesting. Did you have a sense like, "I should get my car and go there?" Did it feel normal? What is it like to do something every day for years and then stop? Yeah, that's all— there's so much, and if so many communicators are reading books, they're searching online, they're like— Listening to podcasts. There are like 101 jokes for speakers. It's like, wait, wait, slow down. It's all— there's so much happening in you and around you if you slow down and then you just look for what's that doing to me? What's that teaching me? What is present in that? Oh, amazing. Mm. Yep. Love it.

So do you remember Bro Hug? Guy from Minneapolis. Yes. He's a good friend of mine. Oh, is he really? Yeah. Yeah. He and I, we didn't know that we were each going to be there and we saw each other sort of— And sit on opposite sides of the room. Sitting on opposite sides of the room. And he's a huge, huge Rob Bell fan, obviously. He bro hugged his monitor because he wanted to get as close to you as possible. So when I told him I was interviewing you, I said, you know, Joe, uh, is there a question that you want me to ask Rob? And he said, yes, I want you to ask Rob if he had to— if he had one final sermon to give or one final talk, what would it be about?

I said, you know, I did a show Tuesday night at this comedy club in LA. I did an hour and 10 minutes of new material that I'd never done before, and the show was 82 photos I've taken on my iPhone. Nice. And I kept thinking, this will either totally bomb or this will be like some other— some new— a whole new thing will open up. Because I'd had this idea and there was like a theme, and then I had some, some things that I wanted people to pick up, but I knew that if I stated it, they would— it needed to be something you would just pick up in the course of the hour and whatever, 10 minutes it was. And a bunch of my friends afterwards were like, "That's the best thing you've done. That is the best thing you've done," which made me laugh. I might do that. And I was going in like, "Oh, this could totally tank," which is the best thing. It was just the best feeling. So I would probably do— and so now I'd probably do that thing that I did Tuesday night. I'd probably do that. I think it's actually the thing I'm here to say at some level. You know what I mean? It's the thing that is the thing that I'm here to say. Wow. As long as all the other stuff— yeah, I'd probably do that one.

Well, and of course, the thing—

I might actually have to go take it out on tour next year or something because it was so fun and moving to me. Yeah.

Well, that's the thing is the thing that we're here to say continues to evolve. So— Yes, exactly. That's right now. Exactly.

That's it for you. Yeah, yeah. And the real joy, and I've been at this about 25 years, is when you have a new thing you've never done and you're like going out on stage to do it and all you know is you're fully alive 'cause this thing could really sail or it could crash so hard. Oh, that is the best.

Well, I love—

And if you lose that, if you lose that, go do something else. Right. If you lose that, then—

I love that that's how you approach it, that for you it is like, I am so fully alive right now.

Oh yeah, it's about the work and it's about doing the work. And people who are like, well, I just really wanna talk to large crowds. No, that's boring. What's interesting is you having things to say and doing the hard work and giving the gift to— if 4 people show up, then you give them the best you can give. That's where the joy is, in the work. And then if people respond, that's like, that's amazing. Right. Yeah, I mean, what a—

obviously you've spent many, many years getting to a point where you are at a place where you can Show up at the nightclub and know that there's gonna be people there who you can test this out on and who support you. But also, you know, that takes risk and courage to continually create and step into that space where you're willing to say, "Eh, this might totally fall flat." I'm gonna do it anyway.

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's this great comedian, Colin Quinn, who just says, "You know you're in trouble when you're killing it." You know when you're killing it and you're actually a little bit bored. Yeah. So you have to just keep moving and keep trying things. And that's, yeah. And so it's interesting when I interact with other communicators, Within 30 seconds, I can pick up whether this is somebody who's cruising on past success, just cranking out the same thing over and over and over again, or whether they're on the hunt. They're exploring and discovery. You can— yeah. So like in 30 seconds talking to you, I'm like, "Oh yeah, she's in this game." That's where it's at.

Well, it's been so fun to just seep into the Rob Bell world a little bit now that I finally picked up the pieces and people were like, "Just do it!" Like, oh my gosh, because you have discovered the, I think, the magical blend of the way that you, you push boundaries, but in a way, I think that, um, I don't know, you, you've mastered this balance of, uh, testing out new creative ideas, like always pushing, pushing creatively, but also really pushing yourself in terms of your own ideas. And, and so it's really exciting to be in the audience of that. And I think that's just a lesson for everybody is like we, as speakers, if we are doing our job, we are pushing the boundaries a little bit enough that people can walk with us in that space, but not so much that they shut us down, but that that's our job.

Absolutely. Sometimes people— you'll hear people talking about somebody and they'll say, "Well, they can do that. They're so-and-so." It's like, "Oh no. Here's what you have to understand. They were like that before you ever heard of them." There was this great quote I just read about Taylor Swift the other day because what's an interview without a Taylor Swift reference? She said she saw somebody doing the splits. And she thought, "I wanna be able to do the splits." So she said, "I stretched every day for a year until I could do the splits." Wow. This was recently. So what's interesting to me is people are like, "Well, it's Taylor Swift. I mean, she just writes great songs. She has her own planes. She fills stadiums." Yeah, but she's at the top of her game and she sees somebody doing the splits and she's like, "I'd like to do the splits." So every day she tried a little bit. You know what I mean? Right. That tells you everything you need to know. When she was 11, she was probably playing the guitar 5 hours a day. Right. This whole thing about, "Well, that's so-and-so. That's just them." I guarantee if you go back in their story, they were doing that long before they had influence, long before— If they're throwing themselves into their performance or their speech and it's really amazing, I bet when only 11 people were there, if you would have seen them, they threw themselves into it with the same passion and joy and intensity. This idea that somehow some people got a pass or something is so far from how it is. I bombed, man, 2 months ago. I went somewhere, I spoke somewhere, just bombed. I just couldn't find it.

Yeah, I mean, it happens.

I was like, that was not strong. That was not—

do you think that your audience felt that, or was that just an intro?

I was just gonna say, I have no idea, uh, to me. But it— but that's just all part of it.

Yeah, sometimes the mojo isn't there.

And also knowing You kind of know what's happening and you kind of don't. And you have to completely trust your instincts and completely ignore them all the time. And those two things are totally true, which you're nodding because you know. At some level you're learning to read the room. You're learning to trust what you know about people's responses and the work that you're doing and trying— Then you also have to just completely disregard that because the time that you are like, "That was a disaster," somebody will walk up to you and say, "I can't believe I hadn't heard that until now. That was life-changing," etc. So you're both fine-tuning your instincts and completely ignoring them all the time.

Yeah, and having to let go of the results. Absolutely. Let's just— your friend and mine, Liz Gilbert, Love her dearly. I don't know her at all, but I love her. But she— I quote her TED Talk all the time when I'm working with speakers about, like, you can't think about that. You have to— you don't know when the genius is going to show up. Your job is to just do your part and throw yourself into it and show up and tell your story. And then you have to let go because sometimes the magic is in the room. And you don't know why. And sometimes it's not, you don't know why.

That's just true. She and I did an event Monday together. I know, I saw. Here in LA. And we went 8 hours sitting side by side on stools. And we were walking down the stairs to go in at the beginning of the day. I was like, do you get nervous? Are you nervous before something like that? And she's like, oh, absolutely. And I was like, "I know, this could really bomb." And she's like, "I know, this could really bomb." I'm sure she appreciated that. Oh, so great. But do you get nervous?

Like, do you still get butterflies or is it more—

Oh, of course. Oh yeah, oh, absolutely. It's less, it isn't so much like, "Oh my word, am I any, what's gonna happen?" It's less larger and more, Oh man, this— yeah, oh yeah, I go through it every single time. Yeah, it never goes away. Well, I think knowing that—

I mean, um, my husband and I were talking about this a little bit, uh, I think everybody knows that there's risk and vulnerability involved whenever you're doing what you are supposed to be doing. When you are stepping out into that space, it should feel risky and it should feel vulnerable. To some extent. But knowing, you know, you are talking about— and, and there's a lot of pastors who listen to my show, which makes total sense to me, because if you're listening, if you really want to move people, I mean, that's what pastors do. They— if, if you believe that words can open people's minds and change the way people see things you know, you probably are— it makes sense that you have devoted your life to speaking and that being the main way that you try and open people up. So knowing the grandiose nature of what you talk about and also how that boils down to the, like, the itty-bitty daily, daily things There's a lot at stake sometimes. And obviously you've been very controversial for some people. Protesters, yeah! You know you're like big time when protesters show up.

It was funny, there was a protester Tuesday night, just two nights ago at my show. Still? Still? With like a megaphone. Yeah. It was so loud. And I walk, 'cause the venue is in my neighborhood, I was walking to the venue and I hear like 2 blocks away, what is that sound? It sounds like a bullhorn. It's like, oh my word, that sounds like one of those bullhorns a protester would do. Oh, it is a protester. Who are they? Oh, me. Yay. Oh my gosh.

Does that like raise the risk level for you or are you just kind of like, eh? No. No.

No, that's irrelevant. It's actually irrelevant. It has nothing to do. If you're thrown off by that, then we just have a little more— we still need to move ahead. The people will come in. All it does is make it better. All it does is make it better. When I walked out on stage and just said, "It's so great to be here," and the welcoming committee out front, "We did it all for you," you know what I mean? People just immediately start laughing.

Well, and—

Yes, there is. The reason we do this is words create new worlds. Like you get the chance to say things and there's always the chance that one of the things that you say will be used in some way to open somebody up or to help them heal. And that's not a mystery to me that the Bible begins with a poem and in the poem the divine speaks using words. In the ancient Hebrew consciousness, the word for word is also the word for thing, that davar, words, it means word, it also means thing, like words have matter, words have embodiment. So it's interesting that thousands of years ago when people talked about the creative energy that sustains and animates the universe, the image they used was that of words. And we all know, we've all had these experiences where we heard something and suddenly we couldn't go back. You know what I mean? You heard somebody speaking somewhere and you were like, "Oh my word, everything's changed." And it was one sentence. Sometimes it was a throwaway line. And you're right, the potential is really amazing. And that's why we do this. And sometimes it's simply because something happened to us and the only proper response is to to this gift we received is to go out and give a gift. If I keep it in gift territory, that helps the ego, that helps fear, that— and what have you received? What have you seen? What has lit you up? I think if you keep it in gift categories, for a lot of people you can clear out a lot of the clutter that can easily get— what if I'm no good? Well, do you want to give this my gift? Yeah. Well, then that's just a— well, let's keep it there then.

Get out of your own way.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Okay. Well, Rob, at the end of each of my shows, I do a This Moved Me moment, something that has moved you recently, because I think us as speakers and communicators, we need to stay so connected with what's moving us. Yeah. So I'm curious for you, what has moved you recently?

Um, I saw a couple things. I saw this avant-garde comedian named Kate Berlant recently. And she does, I don't, I mean, there's a technical name for it. She does this kind of improv stand-up comedy where she's kind of a character that she's playing, and she just sort of riffs. I've never seen anything like it. I don't even, it was so genius, I spent half the time wondering what she's doing. She, it was so fresh. And then, so that's something that just deeply, deeply moved me. And then my son's band played a punk club called The Smell a couple weeks ago. And this guy has run The Smell for like 18 years. And he's there, he has a day job, and then every night he goes and opens up the club, and then bands play there every night. And it's in an alley in downtown LA. And this guy has just done this. I don't think he's made much money. It's like $5 to get in, and it's this huge scene, and it's this one guy who's like in his 30s. And just seeing him like patrolling around, and the unbelievable number of bands and incredible stuff that has come out of this one little club. And seeing this guy had this vision years ago. So he works like a regular job and then each night he's there every night till like 1:00 AM or something. That moved me. It's just amazing.

Yeah, that kind of dedication to bringing art to life and creating those experiences for people. Yes, exactly. Awesome. Okay, well, I wanna share my This Moved Me moment, which, is you. So I don't mean to pander, but here I go. So your RobCast number 99.

Yeah, uh, which one was that? Was that Lee?

Yes.

Oh my word. Holy cow.

Hearing you get moved was moving, I think, for me. I mean, the story itself is incredibly moving. But there, there was something about, um, you walking with her through that story. And you've talked about that a lot, just as bringing your— bringing this all together, you as speaker and pastor, it's your opportunity to really walk with people in their pain and their struggles. I found that really moving. It's a beautiful, beautiful story.

Incredible. Powerful. Yeah, and it just sort of had like a slow burn. You're hearing the story and you're like, "Wow, this is really—" and then it just kept coming. I actually think that's— you just have to stay exactly here in the moment. Whether you're listening to somebody or interviewing them or whether you're speaking, you feel whatever it is that you're speaking or hearing, let yourself feel it. And even though it's being recorded and it's an interview, or even if you're on stage, if the thing is moving, just let it be moving. And everybody will— and people, that's the beautiful thing. A friend of mine who's a comedian, he says, "I'm not trying to get you to laugh. I'm laughing and I'm inviting you to laugh with me." I like that.

That's great advice for us as speakers. Can we be that engaged with our content and be moved by what we're saying and then just come along with me? Exactly.

I love the thing, "This moved me." This moved me. I'm inviting you to be moved by what moved me. It's such a different posture than, am I any good? Or will they like me? Or man, I hope I measure up. Or who am I to say this? Who are you to say this? You're somebody who was moved by something, and now you're inviting people to be moved by the thing that moved you. That's who you are. You can be a mom or drive a truck. To do that. Right. You don't need a degree to do that. You don't need influence or some sort of acclaim to do that. It's so true.

And if I could just convince everybody I work with— I spend the first 3 weeks with everybody getting all the old junk of what they're supposed to be out of the way. Right. You don't have to be like that person. Or the idea of what a speaker is, just get that out of your head.

Usually when a person's like— I've noticed people will have a way. They're like, "I kind of like to do this, but I know speakers don't do that." I'm always like, "Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop." You have some way— I like to move the chairs around. I'd like to begin with a thing. I know speakers are supposed to begin with a funny story. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Tell me more about that. That thing that you just shot down. Right. Because that's what you need to do. Yeah. Because something within you was like, open with that thing about the car door, but I know I probably shouldn't open with that because that might make the— No, open with that. Right. Because something within you is like, this is how I do it. Just do it that way. Right. Love it. So true.

Rob, I have loved this time. I'm so grateful that you would take some time and chat with me. I feel like, I don't know, I just got to hang out with my pal, Rob Bell.

How cool is that? Oh good, then we're pals going forward. Yay! I was also thinking, I'm renting the Improv here in West Hollywood this fall for a bunch of events, and one of them is just for communicators. Awesome! It's all talking about this, so I'd love to put you on my guest list if you want to come out. Yes, I would love that. Okay, so just tell me closer to the date. It's all on my website, but it will literally— I go 2 days straight just talking about all of this stuff, and it's a blast. Even though you'll know it all, you'll still like—

I want to be in the room, totally. I want to see, I want to see what Rob Bell teaches. It would be amazing.

Um, There you go. Just give me a shout a couple of weeks before it. I don't remember which month it's in, but it's all on my site. If you'd like to come, I'd love to put you on the list.

I would be delighted to meet you in person as well. It would be great. Great. Rob, thanks so much. I'll be in touch. So much fun.

I love what you're doing. Yay, thanks.

Me too. We'll talk soon.

Okay, so I mean, this is how it happens, right? You sit down at a quiet coffee shop to get some work done. You think maybe you can record a few things because, you know, it's a coffee shop and people come here to work. This has turned into a party. I don't know what's happening here, but there's a guy playing the guitar in the corner and two people have wine. They're serving wine. And appetizers. This Starbucks is turning into a restaurant, like, in front of my face right now. So crazy. Anyway, anyway, I'm so glad that you joined me here for what I thought was a really wonderful conversation with Rob Bell, mostly because he is such an amazing human and it's so fun to connect with him. But if you are new to This Moved Me, I want to let you know that on Friday of this week, I'm going to be talking a bit about feedback on what I call a mini Move to Me. That's where you hear from me and where I share some of my ideas and insight and thoughts on how we can create more talks that move the world. And whoo, feedback. Okay, this is so important. We need to be able to take it and give it, and there's just— there is an art to how we do that. But the ugly truth is that underneath that art is the reality that feedback reveals us in a way that most people would do pretty much anything to avoid. And yet it is how we get better, and it is so essential for us. So if you are invested in getting better at speaking, at being a partner, and getting— if you want to get better at life generally, well, then there is some really good stuff coming your way on that Mini Move Me series, which is starting on Friday. So that'll be the next few Fridays. But my guest next week is a woman, and I want to give you a little teaser about her because some really cool stuff is coming your way next week. She's a scientist and a speaker, and she has done some research, a lot of research, but specifically some really incredible research after watching over 1,000 TED Talks. And she's going to bring us some of her really insightful research on body language, connection, credibility. There's So much good stuff in here. I cannot wait to share it with you.

And if you don't want to miss a thing, I would love it if you would subscribe.

Um, then it will just pop up on your phone like magic, which is so cool. Or even better, head over to thismovedme.com and download my Sassy Speaker Toolkit. I know, intriguing, which is chock full of tips and insight and bonus. You will get a heads up about new guests as they come your way and my way. Which is the best part right there. So I'm so thrilled to have you along on this journey. And why? Why am I so thrilled? Because a good talk can move the world. I believe that. And so let's make them good because I don't know, I think this world needs some moving. This moved me. And I'm curious, what is moving you? Let me know. Reach out. Do me a favor. In the meantime, I'm just going to be hanging out here at Party Starbucks. That wine looks really good. I think we'll have some wine. See you guys later.