114: Vanessa Van Edwards - On the Science of Presenting

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task. I love your giggle. Wow. Oh my gosh, so waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Hey Movers, it's Sally, and on this week's episode we get to totally geek out with the modern-day Dale Carnegie, Vanessa Van Edwards. And I came across Vanessa's work when I was reading this blog post about hand gestures. And honestly, hand gestures is one of those things as a speaking coach that comes up time and time again. And, and mostly my approach is, don't worry so much about it. If you mean what you're saying, your, your hands will follow. But Vanessa's approach is, she's a science gal. She takes all these soft skills like charisma and leadership and influence and persuasion and motivation and looks at why and how. And so all the things that I love to talk about, she's figured out why it works and why it doesn't and how it happens and how we can create more of it. And so we geeked out together. It was so much fun. She is a behavioral investigator. She's a published, a published author. She figures out the science of what makes people tick at her human behavior research lab. How cool is that? And it's called The Science of People. She's been featured on NPR, Businessweek, CNN, and she published thousands of hours of research about TED Talks. And so, oh my goodness, we had so much fun digging into all of that. I can't wait for you to geek out with us. Here she is, Vanessa Van Edwards. I found you online because you wrote this really cool blog post about hand gestures. And I was like, because as a speaking coach, you end up talking a lot about hand gestures and how to do them, how to not think too much about them, how to not be obsessed about them, and how to like get these hands, these appendages that are attached to our bodies, not to feel like foreign objects. You know, so I would love to start with you on how you come to this place, Vanessa, where you are talking about influence and charisma and how you can really, really move people with who you are and bring yourself fully with science. So tell me about yourself and how you came to do that.

Sure. I am a recovering awkward person. So I never really got people skills. You know, when I was younger, I loved reading and I was a bit introverted. And just the whole making conversation and eye contact and how to present myself and confidence, it just never came. You know, I would think people would say late bloomer, and I was like, it just never bloomed at all.

So I did not know if I was a never bloomer or what.

Um, and when I was in college, one of my professors, I was arguing with him about doing a group project, and I think it was something like, you know, a 5-page paper and a presentation. And I said, I will write you a 20-page paper if I don't have to present, I don't have to work with a group.

That's awesome.

Yeah. And he, he looked at me and he said, you know, Vanessa, the point of this project is not the paper, it's the people skills. And I was sort of just flummoxed by that response. And so he said, "You know, let me give you a couple book suggestions." And he said, "You love science, you love chemistry. Why don't you study people like you study science?" And I had never thought of it that way before, and it completely changed my way of viewing people. He said, "You know, what are the formulas?" for charisma? You know, if you had to break a good conversation down into, uh, a roadmap or a blueprint, what would you do? And so I started to really pay attention to what we call soft skills but as hard skills. And so that is exactly what I do, is I try to take what are the soft skills of persuasion and love and relationships and break them down into concrete, learnable hard skills.

Cool. I'm a total soft skills gal myself. So, so that's, I think, part of what I found so intriguing about you is you're talk— we're talking about a lot of the same things and you are coming at it from a science perspective, but really appreciating the value of the soft skill.

And yeah, the hand gesture thing is the perfect example. So someone had mentioned to me at one point, you know, you should speak a little more with your hands. You'll look more relaxed. And me being very kind of black and white, I was like, "What do you mean?" They're like, "You know, just speak more with your hands." And I'm like, "No, but like what do you mean? Like do I—" How?

Yeah.

Like how? Like break that down for me. And so I did this huge TED research project where we analyzed a couple thousand hours of TED Talks and we analyzed all the hand gestures and we found that the top most popular, most viewed TED Talks have an average of 465 hand gestures in 18 minutes. Whereas the least viewed TED Talks have an average of 272 hand gestures in 18 minutes.

Oh my gosh.

And that was— yeah, we really— I mean, I really get down to the nitty-gritty and, you know, that was a huge difference, almost double. And so we broke it down to be— to try to figure out what exactly does that mean to speak with your hands, to use your hands. And so that's kind of where it came from.

Oh my gosh, a couple thousand hours of TED Talks. That is dedication, woman.

Oh my gosh. I, I did. I had help. It wasn't just me. I have, uh, 3 coders who are actually helping me on it. So we have a human behavior research lab, and, um, 3 of my researchers helped me with that research. So I was certainly not alone. Oh, fun.

So the filter that you were using as you were looking at all these TED Talks, was it just looking at gestures, or were you looking for other patterns as well? Both.

So yeah, we were looking for other patterns as well. So for— we also were looking at different variables. So for example, we had people rate TED Talks on overall, you know, overall like or dislike. So on a scale of 1 to 10, charisma of the speaker, intelligence of the speaker, and credibility of the speaker. Now that's perceived intelligence, credibility, and charisma because it's just what people think by watching the TED Talk. We also split it up into just the first 7 seconds as well as— and watching the whole 18 minutes. So we had some people watch the first 7 seconds of a TED Talk and rate the speaker on charisma, confidence, and credibility, and intelligence. And then we had people watch the entire 18 minutes and see if the ratings changed. So we were also able to test out first impressions, stage presence. We looked at power body language, vocal charisma. So we did a lot with that, with that set of research.

Oh my gosh, this is so fascinating. So what were some of the key things that you took away from all that research?

So yeah, the first one is we already talked about with hand gestures, and it wasn't just quantity. So it wasn't necessarily that the speakers with, you know, the jazz handsy hand gestures were the best. It was that the best hand— the best speakers used what we call purposeful hand gestures. So they tended to kind of explain or draw their concepts out with their hands. They would get up on stage and say, "I have a big idea," and they would hold their hands out wide. And they would say, "I'm going to talk to you about 3 different things," and they'd hold up their fingers, 3. And they would say, "This personally means a lot to me," and they would touch their heart. It was almost like— the first thing that popped into mind when I was looking at our top-rated hand gesture talks was it's what you did when you were little and you skipped through a book to find the pictures. It was like as if this really, really good top speakers are giving people the picture along with each of the explanations, and our brain just loves it.

Yeah, well, it's funny because as a coach, I'm often telling speakers we have to find ways to show, not just tell. We can't just be audible people. And I'm not just talking about your slide deck, but I'm talking about your body and how you bring your whole body up on stage. So that's really interesting. Cool. So purposeful hand gestures, that was one of the big things that you drew from the research.

Yeah, the other one, the other big one was, uh, vocal charisma. So, um, the nice thing about TED Talks from a research perspective is that the bar is very high. Anyone who is on a TED stage, already we know they've probably been coached, they've rehearsed, they're big thinkers, they have big ideas. So you're not looking at, um, you know, talks of amateurs versus professionals. Everyone acts expert, right? All the talks are— the bar is very high. But the low— the lowest rated talks, the talks that didn't get high ratings and also had low views, their presenters were rehearsed in a rehearsed sounding way. So you could tell that with those speakers they had written out, typed out most likely, their talk and then had memorized it. And they delivered it and— let's see if I can do it for you. So it sounds kind of like this. "Hello, my name is Ted, and today I'm going to talk to you about a very big idea. This big idea is going to have 3 different things." So that sounds— I'm not obviously reading this. Yeah. Sounds so cursed, whereas the best speakers would get up on stage and say something like, "Hi, my name is Ted, and I want to talk to you about a big idea. This has 3 different things that I want to talk to you about." So it sounded more conversational. It sounded more like you were sitting down with a really smart older sister. And we found that the way to describe that, the best way to describe that was this idea of vocal charisma, that a huge part of our nonverbal communication is our voice tone, our cadence, our volume, our emotionality. And so the speakers that were speaking to you from bullets as opposed to scripts, Yeah, had a much, much higher receptive reception with their listeners.

Hmm. Yeah. So those speakers who have mastered the, the content integration from beyond just memorizing word for word, but really trusting themselves to be able to put together their ideas and move from one moment to the next. Is that kind of— Exactly. Okay.

Yeah. I think when I was talking to some of our students about it, I was saying that it's the difference between memorized and internalized. So, you know, anyone can memorize a talk, and, um, I'll use a really popular one, Brené Brown, for example. You know, Brené Brown knows her research backwards and forwards, inside and out. She has internalized it so much that it's actually a part of her. So when she's talking about it, it literally sounds like she's talking about her hand or her foot or her hair, right? Like, it sounds like it's talking about her. An internal part of her. So as she's talking about it and she's sharing, it feels incredibly real and thought out. Whereas if you have speakers who have just memorized something, it feels separate from them and that feels less authentic, that feels less interesting, and it feels like it hasn't been as well thought out, and so we don't pay attention as much.

Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh, this is so fascinating, Vanessa. I would love to dig into more of this, but there's so much I want to ask you about. Like, you— Yes. You as a speaker. You know, you're talking about coming as someone who, you know, was not a soft skills people person, introverted, and didn't want to work in groups. And here you are, you know, making videos and you're up in front of people all the time doing large group training. So tell me about that sort of transformation for yourself and how you have found that within you.

Yeah, um, it was one of those things where I think this is what we were talking about a second ago, of this internalized versus memorized, where, um, I was my own guinea pig at first, you know, sort of the human test tube, where after I started that, that process of, okay, if I had to break down a conversation, or like, for example, one of the things that I do, um, in my courses is I look at a networking event or a conference and I break down the layout of the room into a map. And I think of the room like a football field where there's an end zone, there's a start zone, I have something called the side zone, there's traps, there's stars, and like that is literally how I map out a room. And so I would use that for me. Yeah. So it sounds good. That's amazing.

Oh my gosh. I love it.

Yeah. And it really helps me. And so I was using it myself and people started to comment to me, "Gosh, Vanessa, like you seem so different. What are you doing? What's working for you?" And I started to very slowly kind of— timidly embarrassed share, you know, I, I carry conversation starters in my purse with me, you know, on flashcards, and I take notes on what works and what doesn't work. And instead of people being like horrified and laughing at me, they were like, can I see them? Can you email me a copy? Yeah. And I realized that the more I shared, the more I learned. And so then it was like, whoa, I have all these readers and students where I can actually share notes with them, so I can teach them something that I'm working on, right? Like I'm thinking about, or I'm working on it, and then they can share feedback with me, and my learning is like exponentially faster. So I think that, that when I'm like before walking onto a stage, and I'm doing a ton of corporate speaking, you know, probably 6 or 7 events a month in front of hundreds of people, and I'm so nervous before walking up on stage, the only thing that grounds me is I have a really cool tip in my purse. I have a really, really cool tip in my purse. I have a really cool tip in my purse. Like, I have to— that's how I have to frame it of like when I'm on stage, it's as if I'm sharing like this secret insider info that I just discovered.

Mm, I love that mindset. We— I talk a lot about mindset on the show and with the speakers I work with about what do we need to tell ourselves, what are the thoughts that we have to put in our brains in order to be most effective and helpful and most grounded and authentic and get like the little 7th grade self out of our brains that is not helping us so that we can, you know, serve our audience. And I love your— what, what did you say? I have a tip in my purse.

I have a tip in my purse. I have a tip in my purse. Yeah. And it makes it more— and that makes it more conversational. That's If I think to myself before I go on stage, "Have vocal charisma. Have vocal charisma. Have vocal charisma." Yeah. Yeah. I would never have any vocal charisma. But if I'm thinking to myself, "Talk about this as if you are sharing a secret thing you just pulled out from your purse with a new friend." That's the tone of voice, excitement, kind of, "You're not gonna believe this." Right. That's how I present. It's very much of— I can't believe that I figured this out. Maybe you can like, like it too. Mm.

Oh my gosh. I love it. That is so fun. Plus I love that it's in a purse, you know, like you're just owning your girliness too. It's so great.

Totally. And I don't, by the way, I've never said that on stage, but that is, you know, like my seat. Cause like a woman's purse, you know, we could, I mean, I, I won't get too far down this research pattern, but we're doing a research project right now where we're actually looking in women's purses to see if we can guess their personality. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So there's actually a lot in a woman's purse. It is sort of like our private— well, as an introvert, my purse is sort of like my only private space in a crowded event, if that makes sense.

Totally. Oh my gosh, you are amazing. I love what you're doing. Thank you. Yeah, that's so cool. You're like, I am curious about something, and then you just dig in and dive deep into it.

I totally geek out on this stuff, I think, as you do, so we could probably keep going on these threads for hours.

So fun, so fun. Okay, so one of the things I wanted to ask you about is, as you talk about, um, body language and speakers, and how I interpret that as a speaking coach is like how a speaker can be most in their body. Have you done any research? Do you think at all about how that goes beyond just the hands, but how this is— how speakers kind of live in their bodies and how audiences interpret that?

Oh, very much. So that's actually where we started. So hand gestures was actually a later discovery. Before that, we were much more focused on presence in terms of alpha behavior, winner body language. There's actually a really interesting study that I I first saw in it, and it sort of changed my perspective on our bodies. It's a study that was done, if anyone wants me to find it for them, I actually think we have it on our website, where it showed how each emotion literally feels in our body. So it was an academic research study that showed that, for example, when we are afraid, our hands typically— our hands and feet typically get cold. And the reason for that is because physiologically when we're afraid, all our blood rushes into— like our heart starts pumping, our stomach clenches up and so we tend to have a lot more heat in the center part of our body. Right. And so fear feels like your hands get cold. And so I was like, "Oh my gosh." That was like a light bulb going off because when I go to networking events I get so nervous my hands are freezing. And so I shake hands with people and I always have to say, "I'm so sorry my hands are cold. I'm so sorry my hands are cold." Right. Because I'm terrified. So knowing that that was, A, I was not alone, but B, that was actually a physiological response. And they have, I think, 16 different emotions. So they were like pride, anger, fear, sadness, happiness. And it made me realize that, wow, if we all have these similar physiological responses in our body to emotions, that has to come out as evidence in body language. It has to. And so for example, let's stick with the fear one. So if you're afraid, and your heart begins to pump and your hands get really clammy and cold. When our hands are cold, what do we want to do? We want to keep them warmer. So we start to wring our knuckles, we start to rub our hands together, we start to tuck our hands underneath our legs in our chair. In other words, we begin to have anxious or jittery gestures. So we look at someone and say, "Oh, they're really nervous," or, "They must be guilty." What we're seeing is evidence of their hands getting suddenly cold, and subconsciously they are trying to warm them up or get blood flow back into their hands. Right. So it is this, like, really crazy loop that if you, A, learn what it is, you can hack it. Like, B, you can hack it. Right? Then, okay, so I know that when I feel afraid my hands get cold, but I do not want to showcase that anxiety because that then makes me look more anxious, makes people treat me as anxious, and that makes me then more anxious. I do not want to engage that positive feedback loop. I would rather reverse it, know that, and do something to counteract the fear.

So what do you do?

So for me, I find that pride is a really, really powerful counteractor to nerves. For me, confidence is really hard, and I don't know if that's because I'm an introvert or because of my past, but when people say, "Get confident," you know, like Be confident. I am like, that is— it does not work for me. Whereas when someone says feel pride or feel awe, like awe is a really powerful emotion that I try to harness a lot. So I will walk into or I will be waiting to go on stage and I can feel my hands are cold, I can feel my heart pumping, and I am like, okay, I am so proud of this TED Talk research. Like it took 7 months to get that done, but we found such cool stuff. I will sit in that pride mentality, and I know what pride looks like, and I know what pride feels like. Pride looks like when your shoulders are really, really down and back. They're as far down as they possibly go. Your head is usually, um, angled high, so your chin and your forehead are faced out and up. Um, and typically you have space between your limbs. You have space between your arms and your torso and space between your legs. That is the look of pride. So if I stand like that and then I begin to feel what I am proud of, that is the best way for me to counteract fear or nerves. Oh my gosh, that's so fascinating.

And you're doing exactly what you say where you're just like taking the lid off the— the hood off the car and you're showing us why it is what it is. So you're describing what confidence looks like and then you're showing us really how to get there.

For yourself. That's, that's the only way that I know how to learn. And I think that for people, even people who are naturally good with people, knowing the why is— it makes everything faster, right? So we have kind of two different demographics of people who take our courses or read our website. We have people who are like me, kind of recovering awkward people, um, you know, maybe a little bit more introverted, people skills is not natural. We also have people who are obsessed with people skills extremely good at people skills who want to know the science of why their instinct has worked all these years, right? Where they're like, oh, that's why I do that, or oh my gosh, I have clients that I want— you know, I'm a coach, I'm a consultant, now I know why that works. So it's interesting that it seems to appeal to both kinds of minds, right?

Oh my gosh. Well, I'm thinking about my daughter, it's so funny, who is not like me. I, I'm totally extroverted and, and love people, and all that stuff has come really easily for me. But for her, she's somebody who has, um, just struggles with that. That is not her, her MO. She wants to just read by herself and is very happy, you know. Like, I'm gonna have her, um, listen to you because I think she might just be able to take baby steps in what it could look like, that it is not something that you just naturally have, that we can learn these things and we can sort of trick our bodies, trick the physiology into doing what we need it to do.

Yeah. And I would say also for anyone who resonates with that, where you just sort of feel like you would rather be reading, I— with your daughter, if you can, and this helped me also, is that to understand that not all social interactions are created equal. So the best tool that someone helped me with was to parse out what exactly— what, what exact social interaction situations do I like and not like. So for example, um, I can do pretty well in one-to-one situations, coffee shops, um, uh, quieter networking events, whereas big loud places like anything that's in a bar and I can't hear people, I get really, really, uh, flustered. So I have in my own life, I know kind of exactly what events to to say no and yes to based on where I thrive and where I survive. So starting to help her figure out, oh, so you like sleepovers and playdates, great, but you don't like big pool parties, or you don't like big sports days at the park. Um, that was like such a helpful skill for me as an adult that I wish I had had when I was younger.

Yeah, I mean, that's just good I so appreciate your approach and really trying to dig in. Okay, what is working and what isn't? And then why? Oh my gosh. So cool, Vanessa. Okay, well, we only have a few minutes left, and at the end of my show, what I like to do is ask for each of us to share a "this moved me" moment, something that has moved us recently. Because I think as people who are changemakers or influencers, speakers, it's really important for us to stay really connected to what's moving us. And I'm really curious what has been moving you recently. So if you've got one, you can start, or I can jump in with mine if you'd like. You go first. Okay. I hear you. Okay. Okay. So my "this moved me" moment was just a video that came across Facebook, because sometimes, you know, it's a conversation or it's a song I heard or it's a talk I saw that just really moved me. But I— this video just came up in my feed and I haven't really been able to get it out of my head. It was so, so sweet, and I feel like we just— I got to peer into a moment in somebody's life. So it's this video of this elderly couple and the woman is dying and they're surrounded by family. And her husband, I'm assuming of many years, is there. And we know that she's dying because they're saying, you know, it's time to say goodbye. And he starts singing to her because she says like, do you remember? They're like reminiscing, sharing these memories. And he starts singing to her, and she just— oh my gosh, I mean, I was crying watching it because you could tell that this is not a guy, uh, you know, a man who, uh, is, you know, soaking up the spotlight in this moment or in any way. It's not about him. He just wanted to, to reminisce and bring her, bring his wife back to this time that they had shared together. So it's just this really sweet moment. You can hear everybody in the video just going, "Oh, Dad," and, "Oh, that's so sweet." And it— I don't think we, we think about those moments very often, of course, because we're very busy living our lives. But to be brought into this moment and to see the sweetness between this couple and the way that he zeroed in on her and the way that the song brought the two of them back to this moment. I'd have no idea what moment it was, but they just shared this really sweet moment together. I was like, oh, that's just good stuff right there.

You'll have to send that video to me. I will.

I will. I for sure will follow up and send it to you, and I'll put it on the show notes too so that people can go check it out if they want because it's It's just one of those feel-good life things right there.

I love it. No, I'm a huge— I have a bunch of video playlists that I watch to kind of snap me out of funks, so that would be the perfect one to add to that playlist.

Oh, good.

So I have been doing research on happiness. So I do a lot of research on human behavior and happiness is a big part of that. And I was talking to one of my good friends who is on a very, very tight deadline at work. She has this huge, huge report. Report done at the end of the month— due at the end of the month. And she was saying, "Ugh, I'm just trying to prioritize right now." And I said, "Oh, really? Like, how are you prioritizing?" And she's like, "Well, I'm just— it's really hard. I basically— I'm going to say no to all friend stuff in the next 4 weeks to just get this done." And, you know, it made me think to myself, I feel like happiness is always put last where I said to her, But doesn't— when you see your friends, you look forward to it all day. It's a reward for your work. And aren't you more recharged the next day? Like, why don't you instead uninstall all your social media for the next 4 weeks? Yeah. Turn off your Facebook. You know, you can actually do that on Facebook. You can put it on pause. Decide that you're going to order in. Don't do any cooking for the next 4 weeks. All you're going to do is order in. It might be, you know, a kind of crunchy 4 weeks, but you're only going to order in. You know, you're going to leave the house a little bit dirtier than normal. And it was like that— she actually said to me, and this is what sort of moved me in this very profoundly sad way, she was like, I feel like I have to cook and clean and do those things even though I don't like them and they're not refueling. And it made me realize that I think that we have to really, really work at prioritizing the things that fuel us because they're usually the first things to go. And I think that we have that reversed a lot of the time.

Oh my gosh.

And I think especially women and maybe this is— maybe I'm, I'm just speaking my own life right now, but I just feel like as women especially, and if we have kids, it's the life— your life is so ruled by all these shoulds and all of the things that, that are demanding of your time and your needs. And they're important. They're all important. So it's really hard to make those choices. But I love what you're saying. It's a good reminder for us that we can— it's okay to prioritize something as simple as friends and happiness because it will fuel your projects. I can't imagine getting through just like shutting down for that long and really creating anything worthwhile in that space. Like, what's what's going to fuel your creativity in that vacuum.

Exactly. And so I think it's like, if we're okay with, you know what, the junk drawer is always going to be a little messy, and it's okay if we order out a little bit extra, if that's going to give us a happier evening, I think that's okay. Yeah. Oh, I love it.

Well, Vanessa, this has been so much fun. I'm really, really grateful for your time and jumping in with me, and it's been so good to get to know you a little bit.

Oh, thanks so much for having me and letting me geek out on these topics. I hope that people got a little aha moment at home. That's the goal.

Oh, for sure. I got several, so bonus. Yes. Cool. Well, I know you have to run off to another interview, so I just wanted to follow up with my personal thanks as I stop recording here, but let you know how much fun it is to be connected with you and how much I appreciate everything you're doing. Some really brilliant stuff. Thank you.

I'm— I, I really like— I think that thank goodness for you and your podcast, because I, I get stuck in this like vortex of echo chamber where I will be having all these ideas and sharing them with no one, which doesn't really help anyone.

So no, I'm so glad you did get to share it with me. And I— you just finished a book, right? Or you finished working on a book?

Congratulations. Yes, thank you. It's with Penguin Random House and I just turned it in June 1st. I have 2 weeks off before edits. Oh my gosh.

What are you doing to refuel?

Haha. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question.

A lot of podcast interviews.

A lot of— that's exactly what was waiting on the list. A lot of podcasts, which are fun, which are fun too.

Oh, that's good. Okay. Well, I know you've got to run, but just thank Thanks again for your time and go! Hey team, it's Sally Koering Zimney and once again I am sitting at a coffee shop and here's why.

Somebody said to me, why are you always sitting at a coffee shop in these loud coffee shops? This is not an ideal setup. And the deal is because I have 3 children who are not in school, so I spend my days escaping and heading out to the coffee shop, the respite of this loud, loud coffee shop. It's quieter than my house. What can I tell you? So wasn't that a cool conversation? I love Vanessa. I think she is doing some really interesting work and I, I so appreciate that we're studying very similar things and in totally different ways and really appreciate her perspective on things. So that was really cool. Next week, uh, we've got things continuing to be super fun and exciting. I hope you guys got a chance to listen to the feedback episodes that started last Friday. I think that was pretty awesome. There's another one coming up this coming Friday, so be on the lookout for that, the second part in that series. And I hope, I hope those are really helpful for you because I think feedback is so important. But next Wednesday, a week from today, I am sharing a special episode that I made where I'm talking to a handful of people who are involved in the Listen to Your Mother event. And if you have been listening to the show for a while, you've heard me talk about it a little bit. I interviewed Ann Imig, who was on the show a while back, and she's the founder and creator of that show. And she's amazing and all about stories and how stories can really liberate us as people and change the way we see and experience and understand each other, which I am completely on board with. And have felt that and experienced that myself. And then when I got to do the Twin Cities show, um, it— I had that experience once again. It was so amazing to watch this all unfold. And so I put together an episode for that. So that is next Wednesday where you can talk, um, you're going to hear from our one of our local producers here in the show and then two women who were involved in the show and what their experience was like, and, and two very different experience levels. And so it was really fun to put together, and I hope you enjoy it. And the timing is really cool because just recently all the Listen to Your Mother episodes, um, or shows and the stories came out on YouTube. So if you are enjoying that kind of thing and are curious to hear more about these stories You can just hop onto YouTube and look up "Listen to Your Mother," and there's hundreds and hundreds of them, including mine. So if you're curious about that, just type in my name, Sally Koering Zimney, "Listen to Your Mother," and boop, I'll pop up right there. And you can hear about my daughter and her love of tacos and how that really messed with my head for a while. So, uh, hope you enjoy. That's it for me today. Thanks so much for listening. Look me up. Check This Moved Me out on our website, on Facebook, on Twitter. I'd love to hear from you. Shoot me an email. We've got all kinds of great stuff going on, and I'm so grateful for you joining me on this journey. Talk to you soon. This moved me. Dwa thiz moved me.