124: Vikas Narula - On Speaking and Influence

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task.

I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh, so waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Hey Movers, today on the show I am so thrilled to be bringing you a conversation that I found so insightful and interesting. Um, his name is Vikas Narula. He's an entrepreneur, a teacher, a changemaker, a leader, a tech startup CEO. Uh, he's just done some really incredible, brilliant things in his lifetime, and he's at this point in his career where he is really focused on creative expression, bringing all of those ideas and thoughts out into the world more. And since his work with Keyhubs, the technological company, technological, I think we can, we can go with it, his technology company Keyhubs is all about connection and all about influence. So I kind of thought it would be interesting to talk about not just how he does that as a speaker and a writer, but also how he illuminates that for people through his technology. So we had this cool sort of meta conversation about the power of connection and how we can develop more of that as leaders, entrepreneurs, influencers, and speakers. Here he is, Vikas Narula. I have to say, as a person who does them, I have found it to be an amazing networking tool.

Really? Tell me about it.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. It the excuse I have to reach out to people and say, hey, I'm interested in your work, I'd love to have a conversation about it, would you join me on the show? And it's such an easy yes for people, I've found, on the whole, because it's— you hop on Skype, it's a phone call, you're meeting new people, and you're getting your work out there.

Yeah, true, true. In a sense, you have a, um, a way of getting connected to people that may not otherwise meet with you for tea just for the sake of tea. So yeah, that's cool. That's a good strategy.

Well, yes, and it wasn't an intentional one. I just thought it would be kind of fun and interesting and a good use of my skills and that it'd be a great way for me to get my voice out there more. And what I found is A, it's been a huge connection point for me, but B, I've loved it.

Yeah, I bet. You get to meet all kinds of interesting people. Yes.

And I, like you, I'm a people person. So I just absolutely have been delighted by connecting to all these people from all over the world that I would never have had an excuse to be connected with before.

So that's really cool. I wouldn't have thought of that, but that makes a lot of sense.

So what I think would be really cool to start and just dive in, Vikas, is to hear a little bit about your journey. Because one thing that I want to draw out and make really clear is obviously you do some speaking and you're out in front of people to some extent, and you're a writer, and— but to pull out a little bit about what your work has to do with influencers and people who they themselves are out doing the work of sharing a message and speaking and doing workshops and all that good stuff.

Yes, yes.

So what do you think?

Yeah, sure, sure. Sure. Yeah, well, let's see, where should we begin? Well, a lot of my learning, a lot of what informs my work today was based on my experience of working in the corporate world, working for a couple of startups. And, you know, I entered the workforce, you know, right out of college and was just learn— it took me a while to figure things out or to see patterns. It took years of— and working for two different companies, I saw certain patterns. Some were good and some didn't feel so good. And what I found is that the— there was a lot of emphasis put on the org structure, the hierarchy, who reports to who. But what I observed was that a lot of work happened independent of it. And oftentimes the person at the higher level didn't have the kind of influence you would, you would think or expect. And there are a lot of political dynamics underneath the hierarchy that people in the lower levels of the organization can see looking up, because they're in the trenches and you're you are experiencing the side effects of it. But I was always confused as to why the higher-ups couldn't see it. Like, if someone mustered up the courage to tell a higher-up, like, did you know this is going on? And, and they would, they would be dumbfounded and surprised, like, I had no idea. And there was this disconnect, a hierarchical disconnect. And, you know, it was the typical kind of Dilbert sort of life. And point—

Dilbert.

Yeah, who doesn't love Dilbert? It's so true and funny and sad all at once.

Right? Yeah.

Sad, because, you know, it's true, right?

It resonates.

It resonates. Yeah. And so a point came in my career when I started to move up the chain. And I wanted to get more formal training in how to be a good manager. So I went back to business school 10 years ago, and that's where I learned about this idea that we work in hierarchies. However, there's human relationships that form, and those relationships actually dictate how work gets done. And you can map those relationships, and managers should understand that mapping. And I was like, hey, this is a pretty neat way to to overcome this disconnect that occurs when you work in hierarchies. I didn't really have any entrepreneurial aspirations at that point. I just wanted to apply this concept. Being a software guy, I was looking for software. When I didn't find what I was looking for, then this idea started to gnaw at me like, "Hey, why don't you build something?" I didn't act on the idea for about a year. Finally, the idea wouldn't go away, so then I just shared it with a classmate of mine. We decided to team up and we started working on Key Hubs, which was devoted to this idea of uncovering the, the dynamics of what's happening under the inert hierarchy, or the, the so-called structure. What's— how is the organization really structured through relationship? So Key Hubs became this pet project, and Then a couple years later, the stars aligned and I ventured out on my own to see if I could turn it into more than just a hobby. And so for the last 6 and a half years, that's what I've been working on. And fortunately, we were able to turn it into more than just a hobby, and we've learned a lot and found these patterns that I saw in my working career, and we've revealed them to leaders and managers and many different organizations. And, and then, and then in that process, what happened was that in becoming independent and becoming an entrepreneur, that in and of itself changed me. It changed my perspective on life and business and people and connection and purpose. And I started to write about that, I started to speak about it in addition to my Keyhubs-related speaking, and eventually got invited to teach a full semester course at MCTC. So I've been doing that for 3 semesters, and that has been just a tremendous, rewarding, enriching, meaningful experience. So I've become, I've become an evangelist for entrepreneurship, specifically like purpose-driven entrepreneurship, which is something I would have never really dreamed of, you know, 6, 7 years ago. I've become an advocate for human connection and seeing groups and organizations through the lens of human connection.

Yeah.

And how to leverage that in a way to be more effective. In teams and as leaders and as an organization. So I go out and I write about this. I speak about it. And I continue to advance the cause of what we do and the technology of how we do it. And we're always adding new capability and improving what we're doing. And I'm having a blast. It's been— I love the kind of work we do and the kind of people we work with and the kind of opportunities and doors it opens for me. I just feel like professionally I've grown so much in the last 6 and a half years, last 7, 8 years since pursuing my own, my own idea and, and sticking with it. And it's just opened up and branched into all these interesting, unexpected, magical places.

There is so much that of what you're saying that I think parallels the lessons that we as speakers to take and use in our lives because speakers essentially are entrepreneurs and purpose-driven entrepreneurs, hopefully. Unless it's just a vanity exercise, which we would like to avoid.

Yes. Right?

So the purpose is what drives a lot of people out on stage and they're not necessarily clamoring for that moment, but they are.

Yes.

So I'm wondering what you've learned through your work with KeyHubs. Is it key hubs or key hubs?

I didn't— No, I didn't. Key hubs. It's plural.

Key hubs.

Yeah.

I'm just wondering if the emphasis is on key or hubs.

I've never thought about that.

Okay, great.

Whichever you prefer, really. I mean, keyhubs. I guess it's equal emphasis.

Okay, good. Well, because one time you said it, I thought you said keyhubs, and then I was like, oh, that's different than I was saying it in my head. But then when I said it out loud, it didn't sound that different.

It doesn't sound different. You can say it either way. It sounds the same.

Wow.

I feel like somebody should analyze what's happening in my head right now. What is going on, Sally? Okay, back on track. So what I'm curious about your work through Keyhubs is, is what you've learned about influence that might— there— where's the lesson for us as influencers?

Yes. Well, one of the big things is something I observed in my own career before starting, and my notion was when I did start was that influence is likely to be independent of hierarchy. That was— that's what I experienced and I assumed was everywhere. But doing the work for the last 6 and a half years, we know it to be true that influence is often not top-down. It's frequently more bottom-up. And there's positive influence and there's negative influence. And that happens everywhere throughout the hierarchy. But leaders often misidentify who those influencers are, both positive and negative. And this creates discord and dysfunction because you got the wrong people on the bus in the wrong seats, and you got the right people off the bus. And if you read that book, From Good to Great, it's all about getting the right people on the bus in the right seat. So that's the thing. And the reason leaders are not good at identifying is because the hierarchy creates distortions in perception. Everyone is incentivized to manage up, right? Their survival, their performance hinges on their ability to manage up. And so if everybody's managing up, You know, the higher you go up in an organization, it can be harder to differentiate who's really doing well, who's really a top performer, who's really making it happen. If you're really good at managing up and you don't care about the people next to you or beneath you, leaders don't necessarily see that. And that's why if you've worked in a corporation for any period of time, you'll have this experience of someone getting promoted and you're like, how did they pick that person?

Right.

Right. How could they not see this gem over here? And so hierarchy creates distortion. We have seen on some occasions leaders, leaders high up in an organization who are also very influential, and they earn that influence by showing genuine care for everyone in the organization, or for even, even for the people in the lowest levels of the hierarchy. And leaders tend to not do that. Like, they're, they're more focused on their direct reports, or they're focused on what the board expects of them. And the really good leaders, in my estimation, really demonstrate a genuine care and inspire trust not just across the organization, but throughout all levels of the hierarchy. You're not going to be loved by everyone, right? But those that make an effort, you hear the stories of the CEOs who go and walk on the manufacturing floor and build rapport and relationship. That's really about creating influence and saying, hey, I understand what you're going through and I care about you.. And so, we see when we go into organizations, we see the leaders who are better than that than others. And so, we identify influence and we also take leaders and managers through an exercise of assessing their own influence. So, before showing them their own results, we'll say, "Well, how much influence do you think you have?" And then we compare it to the reality. And what we find is that Leaders more than anyone, forget about identifying other people's influence, leaders are not really that great at assessing their own influence. They usually think they're way more influential than they actually are. Because they're like, "I'm the one making all the money and I have a big title and I get up in front of everyone and everyone's smiling at me, so I must have influence." Well, you think you do because people are incentivized, people are smiling at you because they're Survival hinges on that, but actually when it comes to influence and trust and these things, you— there's other people folks are going to. And so that's a real eye-opener for some part.

Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think one of the things that I want to draw out here is that as speakers, we have to understand that good speakers are good leaders, and that if we We have to take the same sort of risks that a good leader takes, that we are seeing what— exactly what you're saying, that seeing what's really working.

Yes.

Bringing clarity to what is murky and challenging and hard. And it's about, you know, human connection.

Yes, that's what I was going to say. It's really about connecting. You can have a really great speech content, but if you're not connecting with the energy in the room or the audience on a very personal level, I don't believe that talk is going to be as compelling.

That is what it's all about. You're exactly right. And that is hard.— it's not a skill per se, quote unquote, that you can draw out. You might work on somebody's gestures or their vocal pitch or all of that stuff. That's kind of the easy stuff that you can work on. Connection is— you can still develop it. But do you have any thoughts about how we as influencers can develop our connection?

Yes, yes, I do have some thoughts. And my feeling is this, that if an individual isn't deeply connected to him or herself, to the depths of him or herself, it's very difficult to connect with others.

Yeah.

And it starts with— it starts with you. And I think when you're self-aware, when you are connected to not just your mind and your body, but also your heart and your soul, then you can, you can connect and touch people more deeply, more, more meaningful, in a more meaningful way. And that's what we see when, when we see influencers, when we identify influencers and we interview them and we observe them. These are people who have a genuine love for humanity. They're helpful and they're positive. Why is that? Well, our, you know, our observations and our experience suggest that they're, they're well connected to— they have a high degree of self-actualization, you know. They're connected to a part of themselves that, that fosters self-love, um, and It's very difficult to bestow love on others, if you— and connection on others, if you aren't connected and in love with yourself.

Right.

Right. And how I often talk about it is you have to be so invested in the people in the room and sort of get yourself out of the way. That it's a servant. You are serving the audience. That's— it's really easy to get wrapped up in yourself in those moments because you're on stage, but you have to sort of step down from there.

Yes, exactly.

Metaphorically and literally, I think, you know, like really get into their world so that you can build resonance and you understand what they're going through. And you can, through empathy, really step into their experience. And it's such a powerful and really different way of approaching the way— approaching speaking the way most people think of it as, I've got to create authority, I'm up in front, it's about me, like they're thinking about me, looking at me, it's me, me, me. And really it's not. That that can get in the way of the real connection that's happening, that magical sort of transference between people that can happen in the room when it's really rolling.

Yes. Yes, I agree with that. I think that's really, really beautifully said.

So you said once, I was reading on this amazing profile that Pollen Midwest did. On you, and I will put the link in the show notes because it is the coolest thing.

It's very cool. They did an amazing job. I was, I was really flattered.

I mean, what was that experience like? Because the, the story that they tell in this bio is just so cool, and I've just pulled so many interesting things from it. So I'm just curious from your perspective, like, what was that like? How did that work?

Yeah, well, Morgan Mercer really did an amazing job. And everyone at Pollen who came together to do that was phenomenal. It was just such a, like, yeah, I was so honored. And like, if anyone's gonna do an article about you and your work, like, you would want to do it for sure. Well, I knew, well, I had been keeping an eye on their features, and I was always really impressed with everyone that came out. I'm like, they're so engaging and so visual and so artistic. And so well thought out. And, you know, when they reached out to me, I was just thrilled. Like, wow, if anyone, you know, like I said, if anyone's gonna tell my story, I'd want them to tell it. But Morgan, you know, when Morgan interviewed me, she really went deep on many, many levels, and I was just really impressed with her her interviewing and her curiosity and her genuine interest in not just the story that was written, but like many different parts of my story. And really, I wasn't sure what the article was going to look like because there were so many different— everyone has different stories. There's the professional and then there's the personal and then there's everything in between. And so I was really keen on sharing all of that with Morgan. She drew it out of me. And so I really didn't know what angle they were going to take. So to me, it was a kind of a surprise. And, you know, they took some pictures, but I didn't know how it all was all going to be pieced together. So when I saw it, it was really a really joyous surprise. I mean, I like— I mean, they took a specific angle. And the way they took it was really cool. It was accurate. It was engaging. It was— it seemed interesting. Like, for me, I know my own story, so it's like, it's okay, yeah, that's my story. So to me, it didn't seem like new and interesting, but it seemed new and interesting to people who didn't know me. You know, I had seen some of the comments on Facebook that people were making, and these were people who I didn't know, and I thought it was neat to see how it impacted them.

Yeah.

And that they all could relate to my story of being in Dilbert world, and they all saw the value in understanding who the real influencers are. So like, that was really great. It was just very artistic and it was very flattering. We talk about like being up on stage and not making it about you, but the article was like all about— like, for a narcissist, it was a great Part of it was like my photos plastered everywhere. It makes me a little bit like, you know, shy and, you know.

You're bringing up a really good point. Aside from, I mean, this Pollen article is so beautifully done in terms of the storytelling artistically. The photos are amazing. The story that they weave throughout is just so well done. So I'll send people there just so they can see an example of a really creative approach to telling somebody's story. But you're bringing up a really good point because of course part of leadership is being willing to take a stand and put yourself out there.

Yeah.

And to not be afraid of the spotlight and yet not make it about you. And that's— it's a tricky thing.

It is. It is a tricky thing.

You need enough ego to be willing to be like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll stand up there and do that.

Right.

Ego's important.

It has its place.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, I think that as I've gotten older, I've, I've been able to manage it better, you know, and like I said, it was very flattering. And, and I realize that, you know, there's many, many, many people who've helped me in this journey. Like, I haven't done it alone, and I'm always cognizant of that, mindful of that, and grateful for that. And yeah, you know, I have stories to tell, and I enjoy telling them. Um, and it's all done with this purpose of let's, let's look at the deeper aspects of life, whether it be inside of ourselves or in, in light of connection or in light of the grand scheme of things. And you know, there's a certain narrative out there like in the news and that we were brought up with that in many ways is one narrative that doesn't have to be your narrative. And so for me, like, getting out there and speaking and getting in these articles is my way of saying, if people are interested, is me saying, hey, you know, there's another cooler narrative you might want to consider, and let me tell you how I stumbled upon this. And so I continue to go deep inside of myself and synthesize what I observe around me. And I love to shed light on things people may not have thought of that is right there in plain sight. It might be like how you can bring your dreams to life, or what really makes us happy, or what will really bring you fulfillment. In your life and career? Like, how come we aren't— how come that is not the dominant narrative, right? And so for me, I see it really as a— I like to be the, um, the contrarian, uh, the, the more, the, the more optimistic, positive, uh, you can control your— you can, you can architect your— not control, but you can co-create your destiny if you're open to it. Here's how I happen to fumble upon it and here's how many others have intentionally done it. How about you? Right?

I love that though, what you're talking— I like to be the more optimistic, positive contrarian.

Yeah.

That's great.

That's a way to describe me.

And I think that's an important concept to think about for anybody who wants to influence is you do need to contrast what's happening because then I know, right, you're leading, then you're, you're doing something new, but in a way that people want to follow.

Yeah, that's empowering. Yeah, it's empowering, it's uplifting, it's hopeful. Um, you know, the news paints a picture of a very dark world. And I would argue that we live in a very amazing world and a world that's getting better. And we have a lot to be hopeful for and to be optimistic about. And internally, I mean, inside of us, there's immense reservoir of joy and love and compassion that we have access to. And if we tap into that, how can life not be wonderful?

I love it.

I'm totally with you. And I think one of the things that I read in that Pollan article that I'm hearing and everything that you're saying, and that I just want to point out, is you talk about the importance of creative expression.

Yes.

And that how essential it is in human connection.

Absolutely.

And that's just— that's my Kool-Aid.

It is. It's my Kool-Aid too. Yes. Yeah, it's totally what it's about. I, I share that with my students as well. Creative self-expression, um, creating and sharing your creation is a fundamental principle of, I would say, entrepreneurship and the basis of a more fulfilling life. Because we're all unique, 100%, and it's up to us. We sort of have an obligation to share our priceless uniqueness with the world. And That was sort of beat out of me, and I think it's beat out of a lot of people as we move through the educational system and get into, you know, high school, college. It's sort of like, no, you need to follow, you need to draw within the lines, and you need to follow a certain regimen. And I did all those things, I checked all those boxes and was miserable. And no creativity, no self-expression. And, uh, You know, Keyhubs was the beginning of a little flicker of creativity, and look where it led me. And, and that led that, that little— following that little creative call led to other platforms for creative self-expression like blogging and speaking and teaching and, and these kinds of connections right here. And it just started to open me up more and more not only to the world, but to my own inner reservoir of passion and creativity and connection to something that is magical and inspirational. I don't know if you've heard of this book, Big Magic.

Oh my gosh, I was just going to bring that up because—

Yeah, that's required reading for my students.

Absolutely.

It's everything she says is so true. In fact, I'll tell you an interesting story, Sally. So like in my second semester, uh, like the main textbook that I use, that I used in the first two semesters of my class, is a book called The Startup of You by Reid Hoffman and Ben Casanova. It's a good book. And then in my second semester, as I'm going through my course A student came up to me midway through the course after class and she's like, have you heard of this? She had this book in her hand. She's like, have you read Big Magic? I'm like, no, I haven't. What's this book? She's like, oh my God, you're like channeling this book. I'm like, really? So I checked it out and I read the first few pages on Amazon. I'm like, oh my God, this looks amazing. So I ordered it and then I made it required reading moving forward for my students. So now I have The Startup of You, and I have Big Magic. And I read it with my students this past semester in the first couple weeks of the semester, and it was just like— it was as if I was channeling this book without knowing it.

Oh my gosh.

Like 95% of it I already was, you know, I've written about and spoken about and was teaching about. And then there was other pieces that really helped me understand creativity more, like understand the journey of finding your passion, which she talks about that really clear— or it was clarifying for me when she talks about curiosity and, and that's following your curiosity. So yeah, it's— that's what it's about. That life is about big magic, and, and life is about being inspired and being creative, and we're all creative.. And it doesn't have to be writing, it can be finger painting. It doesn't have to be finger painting, it can be— but something that, that channels that part of yourself, which is what I would consider, you know, divine. And she talks about that as well.

Absolutely. Well, as you were talking, literally I was thinking, he sounds just like Elizabeth Gilbert in Big Magic, talking about following your curiosity and see where it takes you.

And yeah, and I'm a big fan.

Me too. I would do— I would so love to have her on the show, although I'd probably just freak out the whole time.

And like, maybe you will.

Yeah.

Or you'll be on her podcast.

Who knows? Yeah, I wouldn't say no.

Exactly.

She asked. Yeah. All right. So Vikas, we are at the point in the on the show.

Yes.

Where we share a "this moved me" moment, something that has moved you recently. It could be a conversation, a book you read, a movie, a video. It could be anything because I think that we as speakers and leaders need to stay really connected to that stuff in order for us to inspire and influence others.

Mm.

So I will start and then I'll hand it over to you. I saw this aside from the just amazing, varied, beautiful, inspiring Prince tributes that have absolutely taken over my Facebook feed and social media. And I just so much, so many feelings, all of the feelings these Just really amazing.

Yes.

But yesterday I watched this video that kind of stuck with me all day, and I ended up talking to my kids about it this morning. But it was a video that was created by some sportswriters who were men about their female counterparts. And that these women who are sportswriters get so harassed online, like, it's astounding. And so they made this video where they had these women sportswriters sitting there, and then they asked a group of random men to read the tweets that they had been harassed with, essentially. Read them to these women, like to their face.

Wow. Yeah.

And it started off kind of funny and really quickly was not funny. And wow, these men, you could see them just like, I can't say this. And they were like, well, we need, you know, you agreed to say this, you need to say this. And these women who had read them, they knew what was going to be said. So they weren't— it wasn't like hitting them, right?

Like it was the same way.

Yeah, it was really about if we said, quote unquote, said what we said online to a person face to face, what a different experience that is. And we wouldn't do— we would not say what gets said online.

Oh no, I know it's crazy how people hide behind these— the keyboard and even think and would say certain things.

It's—

I bet that was extremely moving.

It's powerful.

I've got to check it out now.

Yeah, I'll send it to you and I'll put it in the show notes so people can watch it if they haven't seen it already, because it's, it's really powerful. And it just made me think of, you know, Brené Brown and talking about— I've heard her talk about, listen, if you are not in the arena getting your butt kicked, I'm just— I'm so not interested in what you have to say. Which I think is, you know, one way to sort of put up your defenses against that stuff. But some of this is just like downright so terrible. Like, it's awful.

It is. I know. People are super mean out there.

People are super mean. It's kind of a downer, this moved me moment. But I saw it as an opportunity to just, you know, my kids are still young and they're not on social media yet. But talking about how flippant we can be.

Oh, totally.

With our words when we're anonymous or when it's online and how it's still impacts people.

Yes, it does. Thanks for sharing that.

I know, sorry, kind of a bummer, but hey, you know, it's—

you got to be real too, right? Yep.

And it's powerful, so it's definitely worth checking out. Good reminder.

I will. Thank you.

Okay, how about you?

You know, um, what came to my mind was a workshop I have attended a few times, and it's put on by an organization based out of New England called the Pathways Institute. And I've actually written— I wrote a blog post about it a couple of years ago about how amazing and moving this workshop is. And I heard about it from a friend and actually resisted going because there's just a lot of stuff going on. But my friend was really relentless. He's like, I really want you to experience this. And I went. This was about 4, a little over 4 years ago. I went for the first time and it was amazing. It was transformative. It was like something I've never experienced. And I'm like, how could I have lived so long and not experienced something so phenomenal?

Wow.

Yeah.

So transformative about it.

You know, it— well, before I get into that, so anyway, I wrote this blog about it about a year after I went and explained why it was so moving and why, why don't we have more of this. And because I loved it so much, I went back again 2 years later. So 2 years ago I went and experienced it again, and then I just got back from experiencing it a third time.

Oh my gosh.

And And each time it was moving and offered something new and was different and similar in a wonderful kind of way. So anyway, so your question was, is what was so moving about it? Well, there's about 100 people in the workshop, and it's, it's really made amazing by the person who facilitates it. This is one by the name of Carol. Kamman. She founded this institute, and she's been doing this kind of work for like 30 years, and she was in her 20s. So she just knows how to take people on a journey into their own heart and souls and into the heart and souls of others. And so it's this ma— it's a 3-day experience, and she just does this amazing, masterful work of taking you into the depths of life through experiential, uh, learning and observation, through connection and conversation, through, um, various exercises. And she uses a myriad of, of, you know, techniques and exercises to really just open you up to yourself And it's just something I've—

it's, it's—

and there may be, there's other things like this out there, I'm sure there are. Uh, but of all the different things I've experienced in my life, having grown up in a New Age community in Iowa and it's being surrounded by things like yoga and meditation, to going to, uh, grad school at Duke and, and, and, you know experiencing sort of traditional and non-traditional modes of education. What Carol has done through this work to me is really phenomenal and, and, and head and shoulders above any of these other methods I've— or any of these other approaches I've experienced. And it just begs the question of like, wow, how come there isn't more of this? And so I wrote this blog post about Pathways. Is it the future of education? Because I felt like I got an education unlike anything else in those, in those few days. And so it's been fresh in my mind because I just got back like a week ago, um, and so it moved me.

Nice. I will check that out and put the links and information in, in the show notes about this. Because I, I'm sure that there's so much there just personally, but also thinking about how we as facilitators can help draw that out in people because it is a skill and it's such a valuable thing.

It is. Yeah. I'll send you— I'll send you some links.

Oh, I'd love that. That'd be great.

Sure.

Cool.

Well, Vikas, this has been a really enlightening, thoughtful conversation. I'm so grateful for your time and for jumping in with me. And thanks.

Oh, thank you. It's an honor to be here with you. I really enjoy the conversation and look forward to sharing it with others.

Hey Movers, it's Sally Koering Zimney.

I'm actually sitting on a train right now taking in the incredible sights, and you get to take in some of the sounds. I took a little mini vacation with the fam to Chicago. It's pretty great. I like the spirit on the train. But okay, before we wrap up, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Mikas. And a few quick reminders for you: just a few weeks left before I finalize the cohorts for the Movers Lab. Um, there's a lot of people who are interested. My timeline was pretty fast this fall, so I'm for sure going to open up a spring session. But if they're, uh, still out there and you're thinking about it, I want to know, um, because once I know who's interested and what level people are coming in at, it can help me arrange the cohorts better. Because if I don't quite find I find the right group and the right mix, then I'll hold off until I do. So, uh, I want to know what you're thinking, if you're thinking about joining me in Wisconsin for the Movers Lab. I think it's going to be an amazing experience, and I think it's going to be transformative for those people who—

ladies and gentlemen, first station stop is Glenview, Illinois.

We're in Glenview, Illinois, everybody. Um, so for those people who can jump in do it. I think it's well worth the time and the investment and the effort because there are no shortcuts in this work, as you know. That is big reminder number 1. And number 2, if you have not yet hopped over on website thesmoothme.com, do that now because there's a whole bunch of freebies on the French page of my website that I'd love you to take a look at, and I love your input. Put on, uh, because I'm creating some more stuff like that. So I'm gonna have a whole page of freebies very soon. You know, I gotta do some other things first. Focus. I'm working on my focus, you guys. So there's only so much that people can get done. All right, that's it for me. I'm in Glenview, Illinois, on the train.

Over and out.