132: Jason Jaggard - On the Mindset of a Creative Leader

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task. I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh. So waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Alright, movers! It is 2017 and it's actually my first official interview episode of 2017. 2019, which is kind of crazy because we're at the end of January. But I am so especially pumped about this episode because my guest today is someone who I got to see speak in person. His name is Jason Jagert. He is full of insight, he's hilarious, he's honest, he challenges you, which I think is so important. And watching him up on stage, he was clearly an excellent speaker. And I thought his ideas were really creative and intriguing. So just based on that, I decided to go to his breakout session, his workshop, because honestly, so often I show up in a workshop and I'm just kind of wah wah wah wah wah wah about it. So I decided I could trust him. I knew that it would be great. I could trust that, that he would put so much into it. And I was right because I took with me from that workshop some really important insight into the mindsets that we need as creative people. You see, Jason's a consultant and a coach with a firm called Novus Global, but he's also an author and a social innovator, which is what I think is his greatest gift because he sees things. He challenges people. He helps them do more and become more, and that is for sure what he did with me in that workshop. And I realized that the mindset of a creative leader is what we all need as leaders, as speakers, as changemakers to do the important work that will help us move this world. So I could not think of a better person to kick off my interviews of 2017 with. Here he is, Jason Jacobs. Oh my gosh. Okay, Jason, this is fun. Let's just chat. Let's just see where this goes.

Okay.

Well, I was really, really excited to meet you. And, you know, I thought you were awesome up on stage at Story, which was a really cool experience. And so, so enjoyed like your keynote. And, and I was thinking about, okay, what, what breakout session do I want to go to? And they all looked interesting, but I, I just thought I'm going to go to Jason's because I completely trust that what he's going to do is going to be great. So I came in with pretty high expectations and you like blew my mind. I was, I, I'm literally, I, I, I came back and I like re-met with my friends and I was like, oh my gosh, you guys, I wrote like 3 pages of things and I've been talking about what you talked about there again and again and again, which is for sure a sign that it was good.

Thanks. Yeah.

And when, so I, I wanted to have you on the show just because I think you're brilliant and you're doing really interesting things and you're very talented up on stage. So I know you understand the role of a speaker. And really, more importantly, like, this podcast is, is for speakers, but really it's for leaders and changemakers who are putting themselves out into the world and the process of doing that. So I thought it would be really cool to talk about mindset and mindset of a leader and a creative leader and how really the— I think if you're going to be a speaker, you have to have a really strong internal mindset.

Yeah. Well, and thanks for— well, thanks for having me on the podcast. And I love the story. It was so much fun. And I thought Harris did such a good job. And the whole time I was like a kid in a candy store. Just because there's so much talent. Yeah, not just on stage, but like everybody I met, like you and others, like, it's like, holy cow, who are these people? And then I— it's very nice of you to say, uh, what you said about the breakout. I actually felt really, uh, shoddy about the breakout.

Really?

It was so sloppy. Yeah, it was like, uh, um, and I don't know if that— I don't know if that could dovetail on anything we're going to talk about later, but I remember afterwards having to really As a speaker, one of the greatest challenges I have is being nice to myself after I'm done. And I don't, I don't think every speaker has that. In fact, I know some speakers absolutely don't have that problem. In fact, they could probably benefit from having that problem a little bit. But for me, it really is a strategy to treat myself well after a talk and not berate myself for all the things I did wrong. And I— luckily, there was a guy who stayed afterwards and wanted to talk, and I just talked to him about what was happening inside of me after the after we were done. Wow. And, uh, and he— and it was great. So I kind of used him. I like coached myself through him, and he was— he was a younger guy. And, uh, it was— I was glad he was there because he was able to be a foil for me to be like, hey Jason, be nice to yourself. So yeah, it's nice to hear that at least one person got something out of it. So thanks. Thanks, Sally.

I got a ton out of it.

I appreciate that.

I know what you're saying in that, you know, you were really gelling off of our— I mean, we were throwing a lot at you, so I know what you mean. It probably wasn't the most structured workshop ever.

It was like jazz, but like really dissonant jazz. Yeah. Not Miles Davis, like somebody who's not good.

No, no, I disagree. I'm going to stop you there because I thought it was really good.

Oh, thank you.

But I I know, and I understand that feeling. And so appreciate you sharing that because most of the time, especially in those scenarios, if you're being responsive to the audience, it doesn't go the way you think it's going to go. Yeah. And so that makes it hard.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's in terms of, and this may not even be remotely close to what your question was inferring, but the, the, I appreciate you interrupting me in terms of like the self-deprecating, whatever, because It's that kind of narcissism that I think is really— I oftentimes find when a speaker gets off stage, what they're thinking about is their performance. It's like an indictment against the whole process of communicating in the first place. Like, you weren't communicating, you weren't on stage for your performance, you're on stage for the audience, right? You know, and that's another reason why I really appreciated that young man staying afterwards, was we got to talk about him eventually, you know, we got— and his life and what his leadership challenges were and that helped get me off of myself a little bit and focus on what really matters. And I'm curious, I mean, how many listeners, well, how that shows up for them, you know, of your audience. I wonder how many people, when they get off stage, what their ritual is or what their rhythm is for how they treat themselves. And I don't even know if you've noticed this, Sally, but like, if you notice, like, you go, you have like a speaker you really admire and you go and see them speak and then you're like nervous to go talk to them and and your friend makes you go and then you get up there and like they're the worst conversationalists ever. Have you ever experienced that? Like, you know, you get up and you're like, hi, and they're like, hey, and all of a sudden it's like, in a normal conversation at a cocktail party, there's a give and take, but like they're going to make you do all the heavy lifting. I've experienced that so many times. Have you ever experienced that? I don't want to like throw anybody under the bus, but—

No, I have experienced that. I've also experienced the other way where I'm like, and this is sort of what you're saying, but like, I'm nervous for no reason.

Oh, totally.

And they're like the most down-to-earth, kindest people. And they're just like, I'm just so glad you came to talk to me.

Yes. Oh, yeah. Cool. I feel like it goes one way or the other. Either they're like super cool and they like ask you about your kids and stuff, right? Or they blink at you. Like they're from another planet. And then you walk away thinking, that guy's awkward.

Right.

And I think, I think part of that comes from at least the awkward piece. And when I'm in my best state, I'm the first category. I'm the focus on the other person. In the other state, there's like this inhale that happens when you get off stage and you're so focused on yourself that people come up to you and you just like, you, you get like, like speaker Asperger's where you forget that the, that a conversation requires two parties.

Yeah. And it could be that that speaker in that moment is so in their own head, right? They're, they're rehashing their talk and, and maybe like you just not always kind to themselves in that moment. And so that makes it really hard to connect with people.

It does. And ain't nobody got time for that. So in terms of having a ritual when you get off stage, You're like, hey, make it about the other. You can always feel insecure later.

Get over yourself. That's right.

It's still not about you yet. You get in the car and you can call your wife or your husband or whoever. They'll listen to you complain about the thing that you told poorly.

Right. Well, and that same mindset can plague your talk.

Oh yeah.

You're having this dual— you're giving your talk and then internally you're having this other conversation.

Yes.

Which is obviously not good.

No, and that's been the biggest growth curve for me as a speaker. Hmm. And this has probably become a theme for me, like being nice, usually before I get up to speak, not all the time, not at Story actually, Story was a really special space for me, but oftentimes before I get up to speak, there's such anxiety and such torment that there's a voice in my head saying, If I never do this again, that would be just fine with me. And it's been a decade-long journey of learning how to manage myself before the talk, and then during the talk, how to be nice to myself. My favorite speakers, when they're speaking, I was just at the Largo here, just right down the street, and Rob Bell, who I know you know and your audience knows, has like a, He like test pilots his new material there and you can go and watch. And I like to take friends who are like searching spiritually with me. And so one of my friends went and we have the great best conversations afterwards. And one of the things I love about Rob is you can just sense his own delight in himself while he speaks. Totally, totally. And I'm sure there's some people who are, and that can, I'm sure, I don't know Rob personally, we've met a few times, but like we're not friends or anything. And I'm sure that can like drift into kind of a self-focused thing, but generally I think it's really healthy. And I like that, and I've learned that from him. And even Hank, I know who you've had on the show, he's another one of those guys. And him and I know each other really well, and we've spoken together at some lots of events. We were pastors together at Mosaic. Uh, I remember a long time ago, uh, we were getting ready to both speak at Mosaic. We're gonna team teach, him and me and another fella., and I was freaking out. And he looks at me and he goes, "Isn't this fun?" And I remember him and I were both having intense emotional experiences, but the nature of those experiences were very different.

Yeah.

And it's been a journey for me spiritually over the next 10 years. Really, that was 10 years ago probably. And it's been a journey for me to just learn how to enjoy myself while I'm doing my art.

Oh, I am so glad to hear you say that, Jason, because as a coach, like, that's absolutely what I'm going for. I want my speakers to enjoy it. Like, this should be a joyful experience, a delightful experience, because if you cannot get to that space, like, I'm sorry for your audience. And not that there might not be other good things that they take from it, but like, I think we can aim higher.

Yep, absolutely.

Be a joyful thing.

I, I agree. And honestly, that's so— what's fun is So, uh, the second day, I believe, I can't remember which day I did the workshop, but the second day I got to do an interview with Jim Sheridan, who was also my uncle, who was the curator for Hatch. And I don't think we necessarily did a great job. I think him and I both would have wished some of that would have gone differently. It was so short, but, uh, um, him and I are both backstage and both of us have a history with recovery. You know, both of us have, um, are very, uh, you know, we're artists, so we have addictive personalities, and it's interesting how we come at it from very different angles, but just being backstage with him and he was meditating by himself before we went on stage, and I know what's going on inside of him. He's reminding himself that this is a really small thing. You know, like, that's the thing that I tell myself before I get up to speak. And I, I, I'm hesitant to even say it because I think it's so easy to misunderstand. Certainly when people are paying you lots of money to speak to large audiences, I tell myself, I remind myself that this doesn't matter. And I use that phrase, Jason, this, there's a couple of phrases I tell myself. Cause again, my anxiety like skyrockets sometimes. This doesn't matter. You've never given a bad talk. You've given average talks, you've given below average talks, but you've never given a bad talk. Uh, and then at least not in the last few years. And then, just enjoy yourself. And what's interesting about that is the person hosting me may not feel comfortable about that because they want me to treat it like it does matter. But what they don't realize is by me reminding myself that this does not— years from now, I'm not going to remember this moment. Uh, it alleviates the anxiety and it actually elevates my performance.

Right.

And I'm willing to tell myself whatever I need to tell myself in order to elevate my performance. Even if me telling— even if I'm telling myself something that Uh, if the audience or the people who are paying me to be there knew I was telling myself that, they would not be happy about it.

No, I think that's, I think that's really an interesting shift on people, especially in a high stakes situation. And that can happen in a meeting. It can happen in a pitch. It can happen in a keynote and like these moments that we elevate and it, and it makes it seem like, who are we? Who are we doing this? And really it's, you're exactly in the place you need to be.

So, um, well, I'm not even saying what I'm doing is healthy. Like I'm sure like gratitude and there's others, but you know, you, you work with people like me for a living. I'm sure there's other places to get to. What I know is that what I do works, you know, so I'm a pragmatist in that way. And, and, uh, it allows me to, well, and what I've discovered is, cause you know, even I can hear a coach saying, and I, my guess is you'd probably say, you know, to focus on your audience and to really have that love for your audience and let that be there. But like, for me, if my anxiety is so high, it's like clogging— it's like clogging the arteries of love for me. So I can't even get to a place to care about the audience unless I can calm down. Mm-hmm. You know, notice I can calm down, then it creates space for me to love and connect. It doesn't always happen. And I've definitely given talks where I watch the film or the video or whatever, and I'm like, oh, I'm totally kept caught up in myself here.

And then when you say to yourself, this doesn't matter, this is— it's not a big deal, just go do your thing.

Yeah, yeah. I remember— well, I remember Jim, and your audience probably isn't that familiar with him, but he's like a very famous artist, and, uh, he has been the curator for the most successful, uh, print shop in the country. They've done work for everybody. Every artist you can think of. And I remember a few years ago, him and I were on the phone talking, and there's some really actually horrible things were happening in my personal life. And he was like, Jason, he goes, here's the thing. I think I was gonna go and speak someplace in the midst of all the stuff happening. And he goes, Jason, he's like, I get up and speak in front of people, you get up and speak in front of people. He's like, but it's just a job. He goes, you know, like some people are engineers, some people are teachers, some people are janitors, some people are doctors, and they get up and they put their clothes on and they go to work. And he's like, this is just a job. And I know like that goes against like the whole, no, this is meaningful, this is significant, but I've got that in spades. Like you cut me and I bleed, like this is, make this extraordinary, you know, kind of thing. I need somebody in my life to remind me, hey, this is just a job.

Just show up and do your work the same way the plumber does.

Yeah, sorry, say it again.

Dial it down. You're okay. You got this.

And yeah, and it's just, it's super, super helpful for me. Hmm.

That's great.

Yeah. Thanks.

Okay. So I want to, I want to leap into something that you talked about in your workshop. Um, that, like I said, kind of blew my mind. So it was, you asked all of us to like rate ourselves. Yeah. He's a leader.

Yeah.

And what's the number most people give for that?

Yeah. So we, I do that. This has been a thing that's evolved over the year. I love creating metrics for people to measure themselves by. Uh, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who loves doing that. And not because there's a right answer, just because it shows you how a person's thinking. And really the nature of the coaching work is, uh, holding space for people to see how they see themselves. Um, and, and then to reverse engineer that most people in any given moment have opinions about themselves that they're totally unaware of that they're bumping up against. And so, yeah. So I think within the workshop we use leader and then they pick 7, the number 7 to answer your question. It's always 7 or something around there.

That's what I picked for the exact reasons you stated. Yeah. High enough to be respectable, but you know, not so high that you're not acknowledging you, there's some growth to do.

Yeah, exactly. We call it 7 is the number of mediocrity. Totally. Right? Not because it's bad. It's just the number, picking that number is like the safest number possible. Oh yeah, it is the safe number. And that's the first part of the conversation, right? And then you start holding space. That's interesting. Why did you pick a safe number? Whatever number a person picks, it reveals something and then it creates a really great dialogue.

Right. Yeah. But the part that blew my mind is when you were like, okay, well, just like, what would it mean to get to a 10? Like, what would you need to be doing? You know, it's like, well, I know, I know all those things. I should probably, you know, manage my time better and, you know, like head straight into conflict. Don't avoid it. Like all the things that I know about, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

And then you just like flip it on its head and say, okay, now imagine that Your 10 is really your 2.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh boy. Yeah.

It's fun.

Oh my God. That moment I was like, holy bleep. I was just so— because I think, I don't know, I think for me personally as a Midwesterner, like there's this really sort of like, oh no, you go. I, It's very, I think, a small thinking arena, even though it's incredibly socially engaged and people are doing incredible creative work. Yeah, there is this sense of, oh no, you, you go ahead and do that. Someone's going to fix this. And, you know, like, I'm just going to do my little thing over here.

Yeah.

When we as leaders and speakers and changemakers, like, we have got to be thinking bigger. Yeah. We— it's a must-do for ourselves and for the world.

Yeah. And even with that, you know, like, your tone was perfect, Sally, when you were talking about what would it take to get to a 10, you know, like the, well, I would need to do this and I need to do this and, you know, and things I already know that I'm supposed to be doing kind of a thing. And that's, that is the seductive nature of the 7, by the way. It's the, uh, going from a 7 to a 10 is not that inspiring. It's why we don't do it. That's why we picked the 7 because like it's incremental and incremental growth is not worth the suffering. There's actually a really fantastic book called 10X and I forget who it's by. Um, and in the introduction, the book is okay. It's, it's, some books are worth like swimming through. Like immersing yourself. In fact, there's another book called An Everyone Culture, which I highly recommend people read. In my opinion, it's the most important organizational leadership book of the last 50 years. Cool. It's brilliant. Every page is just like, oh my gosh, this is so good. It's pretty dense, but 10x is not like that. 10x is you read the first couple chapters and you get it. And I don't think he was writing it to— you know, he's not Dostoevsky, he's not trying to be. But he talks about it's just as hard to create an above average marriage as it is to create an extraordinary one. Which is why most people don't do it. Which is why most people don't have either. Most people have an average marriage. And it's like, you know, you're worth 7, how's your marriage going? Uh, 7. Uh, great. And that's where it stays. And it's like, well, to make it a 10, it's not that inspiring. But when you flip it to a 2, all of a sudden it opens up all this possibility.

Right.

You know, and then, like, just in like football, you get a first down and you move the chains, all of a sudden your chains move and it's like, oh wow.? And what I like to use with my clients is I'll say, imagine what would it take for you to have a marriage— when we're talking about marriages— imagine what it would take to have a marriage that 100 years from now people are writing songs about. Just as a way of holding space for what's possible. Not that they have to do it or whatever. And to your point, I don't know if it's a Midwest thing. It might be. I'm open to that. And that people drift to the coast to like The Little Mermaid, they want more, you know, kind of thing. Because, you know, you got to think of Bob's like, well, she has 20. And so there's that element. But I'll tell you, it's an international thing. When we go to Australia, when we go to different parts of Europe, there's a saying that's cutting off the tall poppies.

Yeah.

Right. And you know what it is? It's, you know, it's when someone grows above the rest, the whole group around you conspires And, uh, not for nothing, and I can go on forever and I'll stop, but I'm getting ready to launch a new product that I've been working with, with my old company called Spark It. It's called People of Destiny. And it's this idea that the extraordinary life, or even communicators, you know, like, uh, to have an extraordinary community of communicators, you will drift into what everyone else is doing unintentionally. And you have to, you have to intentionally create inspiring communities where you're challenged. Otherwise your life drifts into something that's beneath what you're capable of. And so the product is going to be free. Actually, we're going to launch it in the first quarter of 2017 and we're finishing up the filming for it on Sunday, but it's all around what are the habits of creating extraordinary communities that pull the best out of you, whether you want that done or not. Uh, and it really excites me. I'm really, really giddy. I've been working on this thing for like 3 years. So I'll— when it comes out, I'll have spent more time working on this than I did in college. Wow. Which is a weird— and I'm more proud of this than I am of being in college.

Oh my God, that sounds amazing. So is it— it's going to be a video series? It is.

It'll be like an e-course. So you— all you have to do is give us your email address and then we'll give you password and everything, and you can— it'll be 4 short films that actually, they're like, that have been in— we've made them over the last few years, and they've been in film festivals. Funny or Die, KTLA, Huffington Post, Entertainment Weekly have covered the work that we've been doing. And so now we're gonna bundle it together and put some talking head before and after it, and then it's a free ebook and some digital material that people can work on. And I don't talk— I've actually never talked about this because it's just kind of this white noise in my life for the last few years, but it's fun that it's actually getting closer. To coming into the world, and I'm really excited about it.

Okay, when it goes live, I'm sure, uh, you know, I'll, I'll see it.

Yeah, yeah, I'll send it to you and stuff, but I would love—

I'll help promote it and share it because that would be—

I haven't even thought about that yet. That would be great, Sally. Thank you.

Yeah, no problem. That, that's the next phase. I love the promotion phase.

Yeah, yeah, I bet. You know, that's a skill set. What do you think it is about you that I was being totally sarcastic.

Oh, really?

Yes. Oh, that's awesome.

I like, I'm great at promoting other people. Yeah. It's the self-promotion piece that I always feel a little weird about.

Yeah. And that's, and I totally get that. And that's what I was talking about actually. I was like, you, that's what I was thinking when I was like, you're good at that is you, you know, this podcast is really a platform for others.

And yeah.

I was actually talking to Harris, who again was the curator for Story. And he goes, he made his first— he was an illusionist in his 20s and in his teens. He made his first million before he was 21 doing magic tricks. How? Yeah. And there came a time in his life when he wanted to pivot. He wanted to— he'd be great to have on the show, by the way. He pivoted to wanting to build a platform for himself to building a platform for others. And there's just something so beautiful about that. And like your work, Sally, you know, like as you give dignity to other people and their work is such a beautiful thing to that. And so anyway, thanks for, thanks for doing that. And, but it's funny though, people, the people I've met who are so good at promoting others really struggle to promote themselves. What do you think that's about?

What is that about? Great question. You know, I, I have, I have been accused of being, uh, I don't know, it was another moment in your workshop where you said, um, where are my notes? You were talking about stepping into empowerment is righteousness and that it's okay to be a little arrogant. In fact, like, you need to be a little arrogant. Um, and I have enough ego in me that I enjoy being up on stage and like You know, I've always loved that. But I also really in equal measure as a coach, like, really love holding up other people. Yeah. And they are in equal measure. But I think I've, I've downplayed my stuff because I've been cut. I've been a tall poppy and gotten cut off before.

Yeah.

And so, and it struck something really deep in me about like my ethics and morals and like it just felt a little bit like, okay, I, that's, I don't want it to be all about me.

Yeah.

And I never have and I don't think it ever really was. But, but I think it quieted me on that front for a while. And so that's sort of my challenge is stepping out and not worrying so much about that, which I think is the other reason why your workshop was like, okay, yeah, I needed to hear that.

Yeah. And that's the— in a lot of ways, that's— it's finding, finding the thing that you're so passionate about that it's worth going after, even if people accuse you of being arrogant.

Yeah.

And that's— that is, to me, it was funny, as the older— have you heard, um, the theory It's got some serious flaws too, but I think it's interesting anecdotally, the theory about why time flies faster the older you get. No. So they, so the theory is people denote time based on first experiences. So when you're a kid, everything's a first experience. You're having thousands of first experiences, you know? And I remember being, I remember very clearly talking to Kurt Truba in the second grade, looking at sixth graders thinking, those guys are cool. They're old. You know, I can't like, it seems so far away, you know, the 6th grade. And, uh, as you get older, you have fewer and fewer first experiences, which is why time seems to fly faster. And so that's what makes risk so important to the human spirit as a, not as a glimpse of life, but as a lifestyle. That we need coaches like yourself to hold space for people to make courageous choices because risk has a way of slowing down time. You know, like when you lean in for the first kiss, you know, even if you're pretty sure, even if you have consent and hopefully you do and you know it's probably going to end well, like time slows down.

Right.

And because there's that uncertainty. And adolescents live in that state. Adults avoid that state. And so I think like for people to promote themselves, you know, for people to find something worth promoting and to go through that awkward stage where we just had a new coach join our firm and, uh, she's having to promote herself for the first time and it's so uncomfortable for her. And I'm so proud of her because it's like, this is it. These are the reps you gotta— because then when you feel uncomfortable, you're like, am I really good? Can I really do this? Do I really have what it takes? And if you don't step into the spotlight, you never have to answer that question. And, uh, and, and sometimes the answer is no, you know, it's like sometimes, you know, with speakers, sometimes people are like, I want to speak. And they all— I'm sure you've been asked this question a thousand times, how do you start speaking? The answer is you start speaking.

Yeah.

And if no one is asking you to speak, uh, there is a season where you can wedge yourself in. Like, I'm not against that. If you're wedging yourself in for a couple of years and then no one's asking, uh, do something else. And that's— and you gave it a shot versus the 10 other people who are better communicators than you who never had the courage to do what you did. Uh, but I think we tend to avoid that. So I push people in the spotlight, not so that they'll be successful, but so they can learn something about themselves.

And I think that's a really powerful shift. Actually, my husband, who does very similar work as you, Jason, he just put something out this morning about how, how if we were to learn from like a computer program that like teaches itself again and again and again and again and becomes an expert like, figures stuff out so fast because there's no ego involved. There's no shame about being wrong. It's just, yeah, they're learning over and over and over again. And if we can kind of take that mindset and see every mistake as learning that, like, gets us closer to wherever the next thing is, then, yeah, we could do more powerful things.—

I love that. Would you send that to me?

Sure.

Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. And even, you know, so like in the ancient, like in the, like the, the Christology tradition, when Jesus says you have to die to yourself, it's not, that's not a religious statement. That is an epistemological statement. You know, you can't, there is not a single person, no matter what their worldview is, who has a healthy marriage, who doesn't know how to die to themselves. There's not a single person, no matter what their worldview is, who's built a successful company who doesn't know in some way how to die to themselves. It is— dying to yourself is not only healthy spiritually, it's healthy financially, it's healthy in just about every way. To me, that's what makes—

I wish we had like 3 more hours, Jason. This is so deep and great, and I just keep wanting to pull everything apart.

Oh, thanks. Yeah, I would love to. We should, we should, uh, well, I'm in Minneapolis. You and your husband, we should go grab drinks and we should party.

I would love that. That would be so fabulous.

That'd be great.

We'll plan on it. All right, now before I— we're kind of over time, but I don't even care. We're just, just because it's gonna be a long one because it's good.

Hit me.

So, okay, uh, I want to do our This Moved Me moments. Okay, something that's moved you recently so that we as leaders, changemakers, speakers, creatives can move our audiences. So are you ready?

I'm ready.

Okay. Jason, what is something that has moved you recently?

So recently, this is a weird thing to say, but it was the presidential debates. Ah, and I was— this is my context on this, just so your audience understands. My parents are both public school teachers. I was raised in like a very middle-class home and loved being raised in a middle-class home in the suburbs of Kansas City. And now I live in LA, you know, office out of Beverly Hills, which is a weird thing to say. And so I watched the debates, which is fine, but I watched them with a friend of mine named Sabrina, and she owns several universities. She's a first-generation immigrant, Korean immigrant, and her family was homeless the first year, and then she became a millionaire in her 30s. Wow. And she's using her money to purchase universities to experiment with new modes of education that actually produce the kind of leaders that we want versus the kind of leaders we're getting. And really, really interesting woman. And we watched the debates at her place. And when you own several universities, you have a nice place. And so you drive up and you get in the elevator and the elevator opens to her floor. You know, and we're overlooking the Pacific Ocean.

She's a floor.

Yeah, she has a floor. Yeah, it's not an apartment, it's a floor. And, uh, and if that wasn't enough, this is this beautiful setting, and, and she's an extraordinary woman. And, uh, there was a gentleman there, I don't say his name, uh, but there's a gentleman there who actually was responsible for prepping George W. for all his debates.

Oh wow.

And so it was a small dinner. And again, this is such a bizarre experience being a little, you know, like a middle-class kid from Kansas. So I'm like, I know I'm sophisticated enough to know that you're not supposed to act like this is amazing, but I'm like holding in everything I can, like trying to be cool, right? And there's like people taking our plates, like, you know, I tried to like take my own plate into the kitchen and One of the people there stopped me and was like, stop it. And so, and it's a small group, maybe like 10, 15 people. And we're watching the debates. And it's in some ways an eclectic crowd. Like there are probably people who are thinking both. And the gentleman who prepped W, you think he's a conservative and he's more of a libertarian moderate. And consultants usually don't have political parties. They take the money, right? And so he's not, it was fascinating. Him talking about the, through the rabbit hole reality of American politics, not in a cynical way. And it was so, and I was in this moment where I'm like, I'm sitting next to Sabrina, who's a friend of mine, and she's just so extraordinary. And I'm in this beautiful home, and I'm listening to this brilliant political mind describe like 5 layers down, past the pundits, past the polls, this, what is happening in our country, and very non-political statements. Like, he— and for me, what the thing that moves me is like brilliance. I'm really seduced by brilliance quite easily. And it was the— every element about that night was just so amazing. And I walked away thinking a couple things. One is these were incredibly thoughtful people and incredibly kind-hearted people. And I think sometimes, just to be frank, from a middle-class mindset, I tend to judge wealthy people. And it was interesting, you know, seeing Sabrina, who's dedicated her life to revitalizing education in this country as a first-generation immigrant, which is a really beautiful story. And this other gentleman who is so smart and cares so deeply about the institution of democracy and was walking us through that. It was just, it was one of those moments when you're like, I can't believe this is my life. You know, it was like, pinch me. And there was like this deep gratitude. And I am, to be clear, I am not a big deal in that room. You know, I'm like a normal person and happy to be there. And I'm kind of casual friends with some of the people there. I know Sabrina pretty well, but it's not like, no one's asking me to get drinks after that party. And I was just so thrilled to be exposed to something like that. And, uh, and it's one of those pinch me moments. And that was like, I want to be, I want to be. And the thing is, I want to be a steward of that. If we had more time, I would tell you all of the insights that he talked about, which maybe we'll do over drinks in Minneapolis. But that's, that's— I've talked about that story without the huge ramp up to the setting and everything with the content so many times because I just felt lucky to be there. I'm like, I gotta pass this on. And you can't put it in print because he doesn't want to be quoted, but like, I gotta, I gotta pass on what I saw here is fascinating.

Hmm, cool. I love those moments, right, where you are just spark the, the time slowing down thing. Like, that was, that was a time slowing down moment for you because you're—

yes—

amazed by the people in the room, which I, I love that. Yeah, as a like true, true form people, people person.

Yeah. And even as an exhortation, like Oh, go ahead.

No, you go.

Well, this is an exhortation, really giving your audience permission to surround themselves with people who are way more talented than them, right? Awesome. It's so huge. Like, who are just like, just do it. Just get into whatever room, make whatever request, uh, you got to do to get around people who are smarter, more talented, and more ambitious, more creative than you. It is it is, it is so inspiring. Uh, and it's been, that's been, since I've lived in LA, it's been an indispensable role in my own development. Like I actually, in any given month, if I'm not doing something intentionally, that's going to knock my socks off, then I get a little nervous and I know my soul is going to die a little bit. So anyway, there's that.

Well, what you're talking about is sort of this, um, uh, what's that mindset where you just feel like you're a fraud and there's no way that you belong. They're like, everybody's better than you. That sort of thinking, which is just so poisonous because everybody feels that way sometimes or anytime, you know. And, um, and yet, I don't know, they're just people, right?

They're just people. They're just people and they're thrilled. Everybody's usually thrilled to be generous. Bob Goff, who, if you haven't had him on your show yet, you got to get Bob. Yeah, he's got a thing like, "Act like you're invited." Yeah. And life goes better that way.

And you were invited. So that's bonus.

Yeah. Yeah, I actually was. But it's amazing how even if you are invited, you feel like you don't belong. And honestly, belonging is overrated. Investing is a big deal. So when I show up to those parties, what I'm thinking is, how can I invest in somebody else while I'm here? And that usually makes things go well. You know, like I'm not showing up to take from anybody.

Totally. It's one of the benefits of this podcast is I loved connecting with other people and in a way that I really didn't expect, but I really like this. This is my favorite part of this work is now Jason and I are pals and we're going to go grab a drink when you're in town. Like, how cool is that? That's so cool. It's my favorite. So great.

That's right.

Okay.

Now I love it too.

My This Moved Me moment is a TED Talk that I saw. A lot of times my This Moved Me moments are really little things, but I watched this TED Talk the other day and oh my gosh, for the life of me, I cannot remember the name of the speaker. That's a problem.

I'll look him up. Or her.

It's a, it's a he and my, my intern sent it to me because she's brilliant. Oh, here it is. Oh, good. Oh, I'm so glad I can actually give you the real name. Okay. It's called— his name is Martin Pistorius. And he wrote a talk called How My Mind Came Back to Life and No One Knew. So what I love about this talk is this man is in a wheelchair. And has recorded or somehow translated his thoughts into this recording because he cannot speak.

Huh.

And because of a disease that he got, it is literally his body and his mind shut down. And then at some point his mind came back, but nobody knew it. There was no way for him to communicate.

Wow.

And then luckily, some just like angel like a music therapist or something that happened to be working at the place where he was living, came through and saw something in him and said, I think there's actually, I think he's responding. I think his mind is engaged. And then they started being able to find ways for him to communicate. So it's this really unbelievable story.

Wow.

But what I love about this talk is it absolutely shatters all the sort of ideas that we have about what makes a good talk because he's literally sitting there the whole time.

Yeah. Yeah.

Watching him listen to his story as we are all listening to it and, and through his eyes, you can see him sort of entreat with us and be like, you know, connect the best that he can. And it was so moving at the end. I was just I was crying because, because he's such an incredible human being. But also he, and he, he, he really had to find language that could absolutely crystallize what he was feeling and how he was thinking. So the language of it is really beautiful. And at the end he said, please take this as sincerely as someone can communicate, but thank you for hearing this. Thank you.

You know, it was like, yeah, because he was completely unheard for years.

So, whoo, it's great.

That's amazing. I'm gonna watch it today. I'll send you the link. That's the authenticity piece in spades, right?

Totally.

I mean, that's the— which is the best advice, probably the best advice when someone says, hey, I want to develop as a speaker, how do I do it? You say, well, go do something worth speaking about.

Right.

And then you'll have no problem.

Right. Yeah. I mean, this, the story brings you in. Like if, if I was just reading that story, I would be engaged with it.

Yeah.

But I love how it flips on its head that, you know, he, he's not, he's not able to use his body in the same way. And that's a big thing for me. I'm always trying to get my speakers more in their bodies, but yeah. Like, whoo, you can be engaging and powerful and connected without all of that. Because if it's really true for you, and if it is something that you are so passionately willing to put yourself out there and say, then that, that is engaging. It's cool.

Yes. I love that. I can't wait to watch it. That and to read your husband's article.

Woohoo! I'll send you both.

All right.

I'll include all these links on the show notes too. And, uh, your Spark Good stuff and your website. Yeah.

So, I mean, so the Spark Good is kind of a, a daughter company now to Novus Global, which is the executive coaching firm that we do. So a lot of ways, uh, Spark Good is like our JV where we pilot new experiments and things like that. It's the innovation center of Novus, which is fun.

Cool. I love it.

Yeah.

Awesome. Well, Jason, this has been really fun. And when you're in town in a few weeks, we're going to get together and have more of this conversation. Yeah. Amazing. And I'm really grateful for your time.

Grateful for you. Thanks so much, Sally Koering Zimney. And I hope you have a great rest of your day.

You too. Alright, Jason! Awesome, am I right?

Woo!

Love this conversation. Hope you did too, Jason. I'm so grateful to have had you on the show. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, Movers, here is the deal. I'm making a request to you. If you haven't subscribed to the show, I want you to do that right now. So maybe you're listening in the car. Okay, don't do this if you're driving, but, uh, see on that little device? Okay, hit that subscribe button. Go to my podcast right there. Subscribe. There you go. Nice.

Why?

Why? Because I've got some amazing episodes coming down the pipeline and you don't want to miss them, including my next interview is with a man named Jan Schulting from Slide Magic, and that share— show is going to air in the next few weeks, and you do not You don't want to miss it. Rock on, movers! Okay, until then, go, go move that world with your talk. See you later!