138: Jason Freeman - On Owning Your Voice

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task. I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh, so waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Movers! Oh my gosh, it's Sally Koering Zimney Zimney. And I can't tell you how excited I am right now. To be introing this next interview that I am so thrilled to be bringing to you. Several weeks ago, I reached out— I don't know if it was on the show or on email— just asking for some input on something. And I got an email back from a man named Jason Freeman, and Jason was just so kind, and I got to you know, dig into his brain a little bit. And I happened to see on the bottom of his email that he had a link to this talk, a talk that he was giving on YouTube. And so I checked it out and was kind of blown away. I'm blown away by who Jason is and everything that he has— that he brings to the stage. I was going to say everything he's overcome, but really I don't think that's a fair qualification, a fair take on Jason, because as you'll hear, Jason has a speech impediment, and he was born with a speech impediment. And for a long time, it— in his mind, it sort of determined what he was capable of doing. But here he is, a professional public speaker, and I love that. I love that he has busted— he has busted through this notion of who we are supposed to be if we're going to be a speaker. And that I've always believed that speaking is available to all of us, and that in fact, if we really want to own our stories, then there is some process of making it public in some way. And I think the process of speaking really challenges us to face that stuff in ourselves that, like, gets in the way of us really stepping out there. And so I was so moved by this conversation, and I cannot wait for you to hear Jason, hear his story, and hear this gentle wisdom and this really beautiful, open, vulnerable approach that he has as he steps out into the world. And it was a thrill to have you on the show, Jason, and I'm so grateful to be connected with you and cannot wait to see where you go, my friend. Here he is, Jason Freeman.

Yeah.

This does not really have anything to do with, with, I don't know, speaking necessarily, or maybe it does. Where, like, your love of yoga. Tell me a little bit about that because I'm just curious.

I mean, as you, as you know from the beautiful article you wrote about getting ideas into your body, right?

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I do. Yeah. The one that just came out Monday, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yoga for me has had— has so much to do with my public speaking career. Let me see how I can say this simply. Before I started doing yoga, I did not— I mean, I had dreams of doing big things in the world. But, but those dreams were, were thoughts that I, I just did not know how to bring to my body and bring to, bring to life. So, so it was a very unique pain because I had a huge vision, but then I felt paralyzed. Paralyzed to go forward with the vision. So I was like a kid in a candy store who couldn't eat any of the candy.

Yeah. And there was something about yoga that helped you manifest what you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, for me, and I think for most people, yoga just opens opens up the body so much and makes it somehow more accessible to create movement and life through the body. Yeah, that didn't quite make sense.

No, it does, Jason. And you're reminding me that when I was in grad school for acting—

Oh, cool.

We did yoga 3 days a week. And at first I just thought it was, um, you know, the physical side of it, even though I had done— in my undergrad, we, we did Feldenkrais, which is kind of like— yeah, it was so cool. And it was about mindfulness and, and like bringing your mind and your body into alignment. And so I understood the sort of the theory behind it, uh, and, and I found yoga. That was the time where I was like, oh my gosh, yoga is amazing. But it did— it, it, because it is mentally challenging as well as physically challenging, and it is about sort of as you, as you develop in the practice, you, you're you have to— oh, you have to face the fears that are getting in your way. Because, you know, when you're like— at some point we were doing some inversions, and I saw on your website you were doing an inversion, and I was like, oh cool, there is— there's so much fear, right, in those moments. So of course it's, it's metaphorical, but what's— I, I just think it's amazing that we're, we're we're starting here and talking about this, and this was totally unintentional as we jumped into this, but, um, I was thinking about your story and, and that speaking becomes— the practice of speaking becomes a place where we have to face ourselves in a really real way. We have to, if we're going to put ourselves out there, we have to. We can't run away from ourselves if we want the experience to be real, if we want it to be connected. And I hear you saying the same thing about yoga. And of course, that's part of what we were doing in grad school was these practices of risk-taking and practices of like finding the truth in your body, sitting with discomfort and all of these things that we have to do as speakers. And like, we're doing it. You're doing it in yoga. We're doing it when we practice, when we get up on stage, like we have to, whoo, brings us the, my kind of speaking truth around that is that speaking brings us to the truth of ourselves. And so when we enter into it, we've got to be like, whoo, here we go. I can't, I got to wrestle with some things because if we're doing it right, right? It brings us to that place. Is this making any sense, Jason?

I think— have you used the phrase practice is a risk-taking before? I think it's positively brilliant.

I don't know, maybe. Say it again. What did I say?

You said practice is a risk-taking.

Oh, yeah.

Did you get what I said? Yeah, it's brilliant because I think most everyone, including me, just wants to be good at something on the first 5 tries, and if it doesn't happen, oh, so be it. I'll do something else. But to do something like speaking, it takes a practice of risk-taking, just doing it again and again and again. And it can be nerve-wracking. Much of the time, but that's what it takes.

Oh my gosh, it's so true. And I think so many people feel or are convinced somehow that speaking is just a gift that some people have. And yeah, certainly some people are more inclined towards it or, you know, enjoy it more naturally or just have some, have some skills that come to them. But honestly, these are skills that they have probably been developing in their life somehow. And I think it's— speaking can be for everyone and is accessible to anyone who wants it. And I think, you know, part of the reason I wanted to talk with you, Jason, is because I think you're a wonderful example of someone who people might not automatically think, oh, Jason's a speaker, he's a public speaker, he's a professional public speaker, that's how he makes his living, because you happen to have a speech impediment. And I, I love the idea of just like blasting through that. So would you— can, can we give some context here? And I'd love to hear from you, Jason, your story. Um, how did you get to the place where this is what you're doing? And I know it's a big story, but feel free to—

are we recording? I, I, I'm not sure.

We are.

Oh wow.

I know. Yeah, I hope that's okay. I kind of— oh sure, on the recording, because I like it to just roll right in.

Oh, oh sure, just wanted to clarify. Um, Sorry, um, could you please say the question one more time?

Sure. So part of the reason I brought you on the show, Jason, is because I think you're an amazing example of someone who people might not automatically think, oh, Jason, he's a speaker, because you happen to have a speech impediment. And so, and yet, and yet you speak. This is what you do, and you love it, and you're great at it. And so I love busting through that myth and that notion for people because, as I said, I think speaking is for everyone. It's accessible to everyone because it is just about bringing yourself onto the stage. And so Given that context, I'd love to hear from you, your story. How did you get to this place where you are bravely stepping up on stage and just sharing your story and who you are?

Thanks for the excellent question, Sally. To start with, I was gifted with the speech impediment right off the bat in life. When I was— I came a few weeks premature, and as I was in the process of my birth, my umbilical cord got kinked like a garden hose, which makes it hard for me to say umbilical cord. As a little kid, my folks told me I was the best, and who was I to disagree with them? But around that time of 4th grade, I, like so many kids, started looking around and saying, oh, I'm kind of different somehow. And for me, I chose to fixate on my speech impediment and my coordination differences and to say, Saying my voice is not acceptable. I should be listening most of the time instead of speaking because nobody wants to hear my voice. And it's a common story, right? We all have different— or most of us have different versions of no one wants to hear what I have to say. And I lived for much of my life believing as a core truth that nobody wanted to hear what I had to say. I'm a poet in a way, so I thought I would compensate by writing my whole life and get get books published, and I finally have a book coming out, which is exciting, but that's a separate story. So I thought I could— I thought I was out of the woods of having to speak, and I could have just remained quiet with my story my whole life. I I convinced myself that what I had to say didn't matter, but life has a way of showing us sometimes that we are wrong. One thing after college— I'm fast-forwarding a lot here, but after— oh, About 8 years after college, one thing led to another and I found myself on stage speaking about providing laughter yoga to people with disabilities at a national conference. And before I spoke, I thought it wouldn't be that well received, that maybe tomatoes would be thrown at me if they had tomatoes. But I looked out on the audience and I was wrong. The audience was so moved by what I had to say, and I just realized I was totally wrong. And I— when I tell this story, I love to point out how beautiful that audience was. They really nurtured my dream in a whole new way. So when you are in an audience, never underestimate your power to move the room.

So true. Oh my gosh, Jason, that, that it's not just you are passively giving to them and there's passive— they are passively accepting it, but it's this really wonderful interaction. I mean, that's the magic of it. It's the thing that that I love so much about speaking and why— I mean, I know video is a really important form of communication too, but in my mind it just like pales in comparison to the exchange that happens when you are in the room with each other because you are co-creating together. And I love that. Oh my gosh. So I just— that, that moved me hearing your story. Jason moves me so much because I don't know if it was hard for you. It sounds like you were nervous about how it would go. I don't— but I'm— I don't know how difficult it was for you to get up and, and speak in front of this audience, but I'm just like, I, I moved that you did that. You took the risk to do that, and knowing that it it might not go well. And just that audience has so much power in helping shape what happens. And I think that's just a great reminder for all of us that we— it's a two-way street and we are co-creating together, audience and speaker.

That audience in Estes Park, Colorado, transformed the trajectory of my life, period. Period.

So some— you got the bug, you did it, it felt good, right? Would you say?

And then I had amazing visions of getting rich quicker off my speaking career.

How'd that go?

That has been very, very, very humbling, to say the least.

People make it sound so easy, and it's just, it's a long road. It just is. Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, there might be massive shortcuts, but I have not found those yet.

Yeah. I know there might be shortcuts, but my guess is they don't actually get you to where you want to go. I could be wrong, I don't know. That's my experience. Okay, so would you use the word— because as I was thinking about this interview, um, and I was thinking about— I know you talk a lot about imperfection and who we are, like really, that our imperfections become the thing that our audience, which I completely agree with, the thing that our audiences most connect with because we're being real. And so from a human-human connection, it's like a superpower. It's a superpower, you know. Um, and, and so the word that kept coming to mind was liberating? Like, has speaking been liberating for you in terms of fast-forwarding your, like, full acceptance of yourself and your imperfections?

Uh, unbelievably so. Unbelievably so. When I, I I got— when I spoke to the audience in Colorado and saw how they reacted, saw that with my own eyes, suddenly my— the story I have been carrying around for 25 years about I hate my voice, my voice sucks, no one wants to hear me speak on stage. That story shattered. When we— I mean, before we do things that are beyond our comfort zone, we can make up all sorts of stories about how life is. And And I had a huge story and I had no evidence to the contrary because I was— because my actions weren't doing anything to challenge my story.

I love that.

But once my actions— once I stepped outside and risked taking the actions that might challenge the story, The story was challenged in an unbelievable, very palpable way.

Hmm. Oh my, you kind of just blew my mind there, Jason. What you just said I think is so important. You had this belief about yourself and you, as you said, my actions weren't doing anything to challenge that story. But then the moment you take action to challenge that story, the story changes.

The moment you take action to challenge the story, the story changes. That's beautiful. That's well said.

I think you said it. Just to be clear, Jason, that is exactly what you were saying, and I think it is on point. And so I mean, this is a little bit about speaking, but a lot about life. Like, what are we doing? What is the belief that we hold? And if it is limiting us, then we, you know, we have to take direct action against it. And that very— the very process of doing that changes it, changes the outcome.

Mm-hmm.

Woo! I love it. I'm, I'm curious to hear kind of on a, on a tactical level for you, Jason, as you were stepping in and saying, okay, I want to be a speaker. Um, what sort of hurdles have you been, um, have you overcome in this process? Because I'm sure you, you have your own limiting beliefs. That we all have those, but are you dealing with limiting beliefs by other people in this process?

I'm sure I'm dealing in some sense with limiting beliefs of other people. It's just human nature to have limiting beliefs about other people, but But those limiting beliefs have been nothing compared to my own limiting beliefs. My limiting beliefs having included that I, I have no idea how to market, right?

Right.

Which is a huge limiting belief when when you're in the business of marketing a speaking career. So, and I may have made major, major strides with limiting belief in the last few years, and I think I'm very close to being over the hurdle. But there's a lot to letting people know the gift we have to share with the world. In a way that engages them and feels loving and doesn't feel forced and doesn't feel unwanted. It's a huge art form. Huge.

Yeah, I know that a lot of speakers I work with, I don't do that aspect of the development with speakers. I really focus on content and delivery. And then the speakers again and again are like, okay, now how do I get this out in the world? And I'll be like, well, I have some ideas for you, but that's not, that's not my expertise or my business. And I know that it's a huge need for people, um, in terms of, yeah, you, you've made this thing and you want people to see it. You want to bring people into the message. And, um, gosh, I wish there— like you said, I wish there was an easy path And I think it's just, it's a lot of hustle, right? And persistence and good begets good, you know, the more you do it. And if people like what you're doing, then I do think it starts to grow. But yeah, there isn't like a gold mine just like around the corner waiting for everybody.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm starting to see that organic growth in the last few years, and that feels so good. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's good the path to marketing is a little more tough. Maybe it's good because maybe that helps because Hone their message more and become more compassionate and become more brave and more what they want to be in the world. And so I'm just getting this for myself right now. But so maybe instead of verifying how tough speaking, how tough marketing is and going on and on, maybe Maybe we can start— when I say we, I mean I can start loving this very arduous process for the gifts it's giving us.

You're so right. I mean, as a coach, I don't want to shortcut the challenge of crafting your talk and really figuring out what that message is because the process of iteration, editing, and going back and crossing it out, and then, you know, the aha that comes to you in the shower, and then you get— you jump back in there and do it again. Like, that process is— you can't shortcut it. And even once your talk is out there, then you come back around again at it because we are evolving and changing and growing. And so your talk is a living, breathing thing. And I, I think you're so right that, that the process of really getting other people to join in on that— I mean, just speaking from personal experience here in, in terms of this podcast and helping people find my work, it's the same thing. It's a lot of hustle and persistence and reaching out and, um, and just doing the work regardless of what the download numbers say or what— or how many people sign up for your email list and all that. Hey, oh yeah, oh yeah, stuff that's important but can't be the focus, you know. And so we just keep showing up and doing the work and And like you said, trying to love it because this is it, you know. It's— there's not some far-off land that we're trying to get to. It's like, it's right here. We're doing it, um, and we should soak it in, soak it up, you know.

Yeah, the, uh, the process is definitely part of the message.

It is. We cannot— process is everything. Process.

I'm in grad school.

It was just in grad school, my advisors used to just be like, trust the process, trust the process. And after a while, I was just like hitting my head on the wall. I'm like, ah, process! But it's true.

It is. This is so hard, right? And, and, uh, you know, as humans, we kind of— part of us wants to get rich quick, wants a scheme that will solve our problems in the next 2 weeks. But, but that usually doesn't exist, right?

Or it's short-lived. You know?

Yeah, yeah. Or a Charles Leif.

Yeah, I have such mistrust for anything that promises something that I don't think is likely. So yeah, I don't know if it's my Midwestern practicality or what, but I'm always like, mm, I don't buy it. I do, yeah. So Jason, you call yourself a bravery coach, and I love that. Um, every once in a while I'll say, uh, kind of as I'm working with speakers, I'll, I'll realize I'm actually more of a courage coach. I've used that phrase and just helping people find their voices and really step out, um, in a new way and, and take the risks that I think they need to take. But I, when I saw that phrase, I was like, oh, I want to hear more. Why do you call yourself a bravery coach?

I call myself a bravery coach because looking back on my life, I realized that there were so many occasions where I was not brave. And I realized the distinct, the distinct pain of not being brave in all those occasions for me and for other people. And now that I've found ways to be brave. And believe me, it's a daily, it's an hourly practice for me. I don't have the bravery solution by any means. I wish I did. But now that I found ways to consistently be brave much more in my life, I I want to share that with other people.

Nice. So do you do, aside from speaking, do you work with people one-on-one and help them kind of take, bust through their fears?

Yeah, yes. Most of the people I've worked with in the last year has been around their fears of public speaking or fears that they don't have a story worth sharing. I hear that so many times, but—

So what's the biggest piece of advice that you give people?

It's not so much a piece of advice, but kind of, I guess you would say it's a strategy. I just get them talking and keep asking them questions and start pointing out that they have a really exceptional story. That many would benefit from hearing.

And so you're being your audience from Colorado for them.

Oh, gosh. That gives me goosebumps. Okay. Okay.

It's true.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. I had never remotely made that connection. But that's beautiful. Thank you.

You're welcome. I'm glad to point that out for you because it's a gift to bear witness to somebody's story.

Oh gosh, it's exhilarating, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah. It's exhilarating.

Yep. It is. There's something so communal about it in the— like the essence of that word. We— when you commune together in that space, it's, um, yeah, it's the richness of life right in that moment. Well, Jason, it is, it is time for us to do a This Moved Me moment. Okay, something that has moved you recently that maybe opened your eyes to something book or a conversation or a talk that you've seen, a moment that you had in life. Um, it could be something big or little, it's totally up to you. So if you want, I can start.

Oh yeah, yeah, please.

Okay, I'll start for you. Um, mine is— so I, I always come into the conversation with one in mind, and it just feels really frivolous based on this conversation that we've had. But I have been— I think, I don't know, January in Minnesota is kind of dark and dreary. Definitely my least favorite month of the entire year. And this January was so dark and dreary. And I realized we're in February right now, and it's unseasonably warm, like there's no snow on the ground. I really, I don't want to complain. But during January, like one of the things that sort of got me through the dark and dreary was this TV show called The Good Place with Ted Danson and Kristen Bell. And I just fell in love with the show. I thought it was— it just brought me so much joy. I thought it was really, really funny. And I think Ted Danson is brilliant. He's, um— I grew up watching Cheers, and, um, my parents— this is kind of a random funny thing, but when I was growing up, my parents always teased me that I was just like Diane Chambers on Cheers. And then when I was in the speech circuit in high school, I used to hear from coaches all over the country, they would say, "You are just like Shelley Long. You speak just like her. You look just like her." And she did very well in speech, and I ended up doing very well in speech. And so it was this really weird kind of Diane Chambers, Shelley Long thing that kind of has followed me through life. And so I always have felt this connection to Ted Danson.

Awesome.

Anyway, and I think my husband kind of looks like Ted Danson. I don't know if that's weird. That might be weird.

Awesome.

But Ted Danson is so fabulous in this and I love Kristen Bell. I think she's so ridiculously talented and in so many ways. And so this show just brought me joy and it was kind of a bright spot. In the darkness of January. So nothing profound, but The Good Place with Ted Danson has been moving me recently, just making me light up a little bit. So how about you, Jason?

So last week I was speaking at an event to Chinese students and teachers. Hmm. I mean, from China.

Yeah.

But anyway, as part of the event, this young man who owns his own business now got up and talked about being in trouble with the law. In high school and going to prison and how he turned his life around through mentorship. And it was exhilarating to hear his— to hear such a story of hope and to be witness to his courage as he stood up there and shared that story. He wouldn't need to do that. I mean, he could just— he could just— I mean, he could just say, let bygones be bygones. I'm a whole different person now. Who cares? But it is so inspiring to— when someone gets up there and says courageously, I've been through through tough stuff. I've made bad decisions, and, and, but yet I persevered, and I've gotten help, and now my life is different. Oh, that's so inspiring. It's so awesome. Yeah, so that's my moment.

Yeah, that kind of vulnerability and openness.

Huge vulnerability. Huge.

Yeah, it strikes me, Jason, That is, uh, one of your superpowers too as a speaker, just your, your openness and, and your, your— the love of self that you have and that we all need to have when we're walking out on stage. But I feel like I can tell sometimes the difference between a speaker who, right, who has put on layers in order to impress and to polish over the scratches and the difficult stuff, and somebody who kind of lays bare, and not just to lay bare, but because there's wisdom in laying that bare for all of us. And I think that I just want to thank you for what you do and your story. And this has been such a moving conversation for me. I'm so, so grateful to be connected with you, Jason, and everything that you're doing, and wish you— wish you all the best as you keep doing what you're doing and, and inspiring people. Your bravery and your courage. So I'm going cheering you on.

Thanks so much, Sally Koering Zimney. I totally have— I have totally enjoyed this interview. I appreciate it.

All right, Movers, thanks for joining us for another episode of this moved me. I hope you have caught some of the other amazing episodes we've had recently. Another Jason, Jason Jagert earlier in the month, and Jan Schulting, and now Jason Freeman. And I've got some other— whoa, such exciting interviews coming up. I cannot even tell you how pumped I am about this. Be on the lookout. Brad Montague from Kid President, Uh, woohoo! He and I got to chat. I met him at the Story conference a year ago, not quite a year ago, back in October, and I've just been a huge fan of his work. I love what he does, and so I was really pumped to be able to finally chat with him and hear more about how he really moves his audience. And I got to see him speak on stage too, and he was awesome. So, really excited about that. I also got to dig into the brain of the man who created the Story conference. And so, Lindsay O'Connor, if you're out there listening, you want to listen to this because Lindsay, so long ago, is the person who turned me on to Story to begin with, and I finally got there this past year, and it was amazing. It was a creative genius of 2 days, just so much thoughtfulness and creativity that went into the experience there. And so I'm really, really excited to bring you these conversations coming up. They're going to be rich and I hope full of really interesting, thoughtful ideas for us to continue to wrestle with as we are doing this work. So So really jazzed about that. And I also, gosh, I've got some other things coming up too, but I think I've said enough for now. 2 minutes is long enough, don't you think? All right, my friends, more soon. Be on the lookout. I've got news coming in. In fact, if you want to be on the up and up on that news, go to my website and sign up for the newsletter, which sounds boring, but it's not. It's not. At least I hope it's not. I really try and not make it boring. That way. So go check it out, thismovedme.com, and sign up for the newsletter, and you will be in the know on all the things happening. Because sometimes the podcast doesn't come out frequently enough to catch all the knows, so you can be in the know on the knows. All right, that's it for me. Hope you guys are having a great day. I'll talk to you soon. Sally out.