158: Colin Stokes - On Why Talks Can Save the World

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task. I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh, just waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Hey Movers, it's Sally Koering Zimney, and oh my gosh, it's been a while. I know, it is so fun to be back with another episode here on This Moved Me, and I'm so thrilled today to to introduce you to a man named Colin Stokes. Now, Colin, I've heard this name from when, way back when I was in high school. He was the guy that we were all trying to be like when, when we were working on our speeches because he was so skilled and so good at what he did. And Colin Stokes won Original Oratory, which was the category that I did speech in. And so we watched his talks, we studied it, we were like, this is the guy. And You know, I haven't heard his name in a really long time, but a friend of mine from high school reached out to me and said, "Hey, I think you should have this guy named Colin on the show. He was in speech like you." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, Colin Stokes, Colin Stokes!" And it turns out Mr. Colin Stokes did a TEDx talk a few years ago, which is one of the most widely watched TEDx talks out there. How cool is that? So exciting. And so I thought, absolutely, I want to bring Colin on the show. And it felt timely because Colin's particular point of view is that the art of speaking can be used to create more good in this world, more justice in this world, and help create the change that we really so desperately need. And so I thought, yes, we all need a little shot in the arm, some hope, to go along with, um, with our wishes. Like, there's some real meat. Let's put some meat on that hope. And so that's what we're doing here today, um, and I'm, I'm really excited for you to get to know Colin as well. Here he is, Colin Stokes. When you win, you're like, well, okay, went my way this time, but who knows, right?

Totally. So, so what do you want to talk about today?

So yeah, I mean, you, you did a TED Talk that's, that's really been seen by a lot of people. It's great. How was that experience for you?

It's, it's completely unexpected. Um, I didn't even know what I was going to talk about when I raised my hand to give a TED Talk. Really? Yeah. So this, you know, this is exactly what you should not do when you're getting ready to propose yourself to give a TED Talk. I just— I knew the organizer. I hadn't been performing in a long time. I had left acting and I was in marketing and communications. I was helping, like, young people give speeches, which I love. And I had almost completely forgotten about my high school public speaking experience. But I was helping my friend John Werner put on the very first TEDx Beacon Street, and so there was some flexibility in the schedule. John is very ambitious, and he has tons of real estate to work with, figuring that, you know, somebody will end up being good. So I said, oh, how about if I to a talk? He said, sure, sure, sure, sure. And I, I said, yeah, I'll think of something. But, um, I really didn't have any idea going in. And I asked my wife, what do— what have I said anything smart in the last couple of years that I could make a TED Talk?

That's a great way to find your topic.

I know. Um, it turned out— I mean, I didn't think it— I asked other people too. Nobody else had any ideas. But my wife said, you know, there was this night a couple of— I don't know how long ago it was. We were watching movies with my daughter and we were thinking a lot about the messages that she was getting from the movies, you know, girl power and make sure you have good strong female role models. But we had just had a baby boy and it occurred to me, and I must have said it out loud, I wonder if there's an equivalent for him. Should we be showing him these movies so that he also understands about girl power? But also, that kind of led me to wonder, you know, are there movies that really show him role models for boys that don't kind of do the opposite thing, that basically just say, "Boys, you're the best." Do we have any movies that say, "Boys, hey, you share the world with girls." And I don't think I've explored that idea more than just saying that one comment, but that was what my wife happened to think of when I said, "Have I said anything interesting?" She said, "What about that thing with the kids movies that you said?" I said, "Oh, sure, let me look into it." And I, you know, then I did the research on the work that many other people have done on this topic and buried that research in some stories that I told about my kids that I thought would be funny and got some laughs and didn't think much more of it. And it ended up being the hit of that TEDxBaconStreet, the first instance of that TEDx event. In the Boston area, and has gone on to become one of the most widely viewed talks of all TEDx time so far. And partly it's because it's a useful teaching tool. It's been shown in a lot of high school and college classes. Teachers who find it an accessible way to introduce things about gender representation and media literacy. Because in a way, because I was naive when I told— when I gave the talk. I wasn't an expert trying to dumb it down. I was a new person trying to understand something and walking people through my process of understanding it. I've now— I now know a lot more about the things that I was talking about than I did when I gave the talk. Yeah, yeah. But it's a— it's, you know, it's been useful to people as a sort of starting place, and they can you know, become curious about it and explore more. Incredibly rewarding to have that much viewership.

Yeah. And, you know, I love what you're saying because I think that's a really important point that we don't talk about. A lot of times we think in order to stand up and speak, we have to be the expert at something. And, and often the process of creating a talk is the thing that helps us become an expert on it. We don't have to be the expert first. We too, you know, in order to have the credibility, right, to stand up and do that, we've got to put some effort in. We can't just stand up and like make stuff up and just purely speak from our own experience. But I think we sometimes alienate ourselves from those moments because we think somebody else knows more. And, you know, you could, you could know more.

Right. I think that's a really good point, and what draws me to a lot of my favorite speakers is that they share, they use their ignorance or their sense of "I'm not sure about something," their uncertainty, as a central part of the story that they're telling. That it becomes a mystery that they had a question they didn't know the answer to. That's an opening premise of a lot of great talks. "I don't know the answer." And the talk itself is telling us the story of how they came both to be curious and how they came to discover some kind of answer. Not that they— right? And that's a lot of what I tell speakers that I work with now who are experts, who are stuck in, "I'm an expert and I'm just going to tell you everything I know." And I need to walk them back and say, "Actually, you need to tell us why did you decide to become an expert in this?" What was the question that you didn't know the answer to? And tell us the story of a moment when you said, I need to know, and how'd you go about finding it out? Which is kind of what I did.

Yeah, what was the question that you needed to know the answer to? Because that's where your audience is right now.

Mm-hmm, right. And by telling that story, often you get the audience pretty excited to know the answer too. It's really hard not to be curious. If someone tells you something that they were curious about. Kind of how human beings work.

Cool. And now, Colin, you find yourself— you are a marketing guru, right? You've done a lot of communications. You are coaching speakers yourself. And when you are out speaking, I know a passion of yours is around social justice and social change and that Speaking is one of those platforms, I believe, that can have such a powerful force. It can be a force of good in the world. So I'm just kind of curious about how you stepped into that space for yourself and how you use that platform now.

I think it really does. I think speaking really does make a difference and influence people, especially in the world of the TED Talk where it's a currency. People, you can share an idea, you can change somebody's mind by just saying, "I want you to watch this for 12 minutes, for 18 minutes." And partly that's because of that curiosity that we're talking about. When you hear a person ask a question, genuinely ask a question, and walk through the many Avenues to finding that answer. You become, as an audience, open to new information in a way that is rare. You don't— you're not in that mindset when you watch pundits on television or listen to the radio or read the newspaper. You are in the mindset of, I know the answer and I'm looking for things that will explain to me why I feel the thing I already feel. And speaking with its, you know, slightly longer time frame and the kind of personal cues you can do in the storytelling and the vulnerability and emotion that you can show, people can relax their own— the ideas that they come in with and just walk with you as you try to learn something new. And that's what I feel like is a state of mind that's essential for making any kind of social change moving at all towards more justice in this country or around the world. Some people are going to have to change their current way of thinking. And it's very difficult to imagine scenarios where people change their current way of thinking. It's just not how our society is set up anymore, if it ever was. And being able to speak to a group of people using stories, using some data, and speaking from the heart is one of those rare channels that I think can make people think, okay, I thought this way when I came into this room, but now I've listened to this person for 15 minutes and I think I feel slightly differently about something.

Right.

If we can scale that up, then we have a chance.

Okay. So let's you and I, because I totally believe what you're saying and agree with you that I think there's something very special about the, what you call the currency of talks and speaking. Of course, that's why I do this work, right? So let's see if you and I together can kind of pull apart what some of those elements are that open up the possibility for change in people. Because I think in some ways we're at a place in this world where we kind of feel like the hope, hope in change, like, can we really believe? Can people really change? Can we bring bridge divides, can we move the needle? It's starting to feel sort of hopeless, and maybe that's just me. I don't know.

But you and Ta-Nehisi Coates, both pretty—

I know. Yeah. So like, what— I'll let you start, but like, what's an element in speaking that can help move that needle for people?

I think one thing is that it's not objective. If I'm reading an essay, a lot of times people writing, you know, op-eds or something never actually say who they are or what their biases are or what their life experiences are. They just say, "I know this and I'm going to tell you." Good public speakers say, "This is my experience that's made me believe this thing." And there's a— one of the most important things I think that helps people change their minds is a belief that there's another person who whose experience justifies their belief, that there's a perspective that they have, that either it's the same as mine or it's different than mine, but it exists in the world because they have it. It's not a lie. It's not propaganda. It's not fake news. It's, I grew up in this neighborhood and police pulled me over constantly. Oh, okay. Well, I can— let me learn more about that because that's not my experience. So suddenly I've started to see something from a different point of view. Or I'm standing up here and I'm telling you that men catcall me on the street every single day, and I say, "I don't get catcalled on the street," and they say, "Yes, but I do." And so then I can sit and listen to them and say, "Okay, I'm learning something about your experience that's different than my experience. Now we can start to have a shared reality." Honestly, I would never know about other people's experience if I didn't have an opportunity to hear them tell it. So I think public speaking is a space where that kind of storytelling can happen. And to me, that's— it's not really empathy, it's just perspective-taking. It's a chance to simply learn a first-person account that's different from the first-person account that I have. And I could also learn, you know, a police officer's first-person account. Here is what it is like for me when I'm driving on the street and I, you know, I'm called to a scene and given this information. I need to know that information, and then I can say, "Okay, I see. What we need to find is a shared reality between the person who's been pulled over every night and the person who is on the streets every night trying to protect the community." Right, right. Without hearing directly from those people, it is very easy to be seduced by whatever the last article we read.

Right. Yeah, it's empathy. It's an incredible place for empathy. Okay, good. What I'm going to add to this list is that it's live, and that is a rare thing. Even like doing a Facebook Live or that thing, it's different. Like when we are in a shared space together, we are all experiencing something at the same time. And I I feel like that's powerful and rare, or becoming more rare, even though I think people cherish that kind of, that sort of energy that can happen when we're all live. It's, the stakes feel higher when that happens versus like a video. I think we tend to be a little more cynical of a video experience rather than if you are there and you're live. And it makes you— it sort of calls on your senses and calls on your whole body in a way that we don't have to utilize or doesn't get tapped when we're not watching something live. So when you're watching a video of a TED Talk versus being in the room of a TED Talk, I think are very different. And so there's something about, you know, when people have made the choice to be somewhere, there's sort of a level of openness that comes when we can get people in the room. So I think there's power to this live element and it's exciting. Like, who knows what's going to happen? So I think it just sort of turns everybody's senses up a few notches. Which makes, I think, change more possible.

Yes to all of those things, that heightened energy, that investment. It's like I've already opted into being here. Yeah. So I'm a little bit biased towards liking it.

Yeah.

I think about, you know, live theater and concerts and things like that. And you, you were, you did stage acting, right? Yeah. So you bought the propaganda about theater being so great because it's different every night and all that stuff. And also, why do people spend so much money for tickets to concerts and plays? What if they don't like them? Well, they probably end up liking them because they spent so much money. Totally. Oh my God, the tickets are so expensive, I'm going to have a really great time.

This is going to be awesome.

Totally. That's definitely part of it. And then there's another thing, which is the interaction. And they said this a lot in theatre, you know, it's different every night, you never know. And in some plays I did, that felt true, and some it didn't. I was, you know, really just trying to do the same thing I'd done the night before. But certainly with comedy or with a certain type of play where there's direct address, for instance, there really is as much of a kind of two-way tuning, as you and I are having right now, as anybody has in the conversation that's actually working, where I'm listening for cues about whether they've understood what I've said, whether they need me to slow down or speed up, maybe they're a step ahead of me and I need to wrap it up, they're bored, they're enwrapped and I can really take my time. Those are things that you learn as a stage performer to do and that are part of, I think, the secret of public speaking, a lot of public speaking, is that the idea can get across even better because the speaker is calibrating it in nanoseconds, in real time, to how one person or the whole room is responding to it. And if I pre-record it and drop it on the internet, I don't have the benefit of knowing how you're reacting to it.

So true.

I guess the liveness and the individuality are probably the two things I'd say, yeah, that's the key to making the social change part of public speaking work. I mean, it's also entertaining and it's also short and it's also all these other things that may be true of really great talks, But the reason I'm excited for talks and public speaking as a vehicle for bridging our different ways of viewing justice and viewing what America means is because of those two things. It's because I might hear a person speak who I would not meet in my everyday life, and that person would be telling me their personal experiences and therefore opening up my world to potential empathy, but at least understanding, and that they're listening to me as I am reacting and they're able to— when I gasp at what they say or I laugh at something appropriately or not, or I, you know, start to— there's sniffles in the audience— that person can understand that they're getting through or they're not getting through, and they can continue to refine the way they communicate so that we've actually established a bond. I mean, it's almost like our bodily wavelengths synchronize, our heartbeats synchronize in some way. And that's even deeper than the intellectual exercise of empathy. That means we've shared a space, we've shared breath, we've laughed together, I've applauded you, all of those behaviors signal a connection with another person that are— they don't— that doesn't exist on when I hit like on Facebook or when I write an angry comment on YouTube. But they do exist in a public speaking setting.

I love that. That's so true. And one of the things that keeps me intrigued in this art form is the idea that we are creating together in some ways, that as I tell my story, you are imagining it in your own head, and what gets integrated in your imagination is your own experience. And so there's like this mirroring that happens in our brains as we're— as if you're listening to me talk or I'm listening to you, it's like our, our lives become melded in some ways. And then I'm sure there's some science in there somewhere that I don't— can't reference, um, intellectually right now, but But I know that that happens and it's so powerful. And I think it can be like when you have experienced that as an audience member and, and as a speaker and as like as a coach, I kind of get to see it from both ways. And I just think it's so magical when you, when you can kind of see the click happening for people in the audience. And I think Man, this can only happen in this room right now with these people. Like, and tomorrow it could be totally different. Like, that magic I think is so cool.

That is beautiful, Sally Koering Zimney. I mean, I do think we're, as humans, sort of specially made to connect with people through stories. I think that's You know, that's how we evolved. That's how we evolved language. That's how we evolved societies. And we went and built a civilization that makes that harder and harder. So those situations where it happens are so special. And I've— yeah, so I have nothing to say to that except awesome.

And let's do more of it, right? Let's do more of it. Yeah, more of that. Okay, so Colin, I want to do our This Moved Me moments right now. Something that has moved you recently that, uh, has kind of just helped tune you in on how we can move our audiences more. So what are you thinking about right now?

Well, As you know from my talk, I've come to find children's movies as a place of— children's movies seem to reveal something about our values and our society in its greatness and in its limitations. And I have been so moved in the last couple of years, really since I gave my first talk about children's movies in 2012, though not related in any way to that talk, but children's movies have entered another golden age. And there's one studio in particular that has just been dropping these masterpieces in the last maybe year and a half that I find very moving, not only individually but as a sequence. And I'm talking about that bastion of leftist community organizing called Walt Disney. Also happens to be, you know, global corporation and marketing juggernaut. Yeah, totally. Supposedly corrupting our children. But they, you know, they've had this series. They had Tangled a long time ago, and then Frozen everybody saw. And then in the last probably 12 months, they released 2 movies. Zootopia is one and Moana is the other. I don't know if you're following all of these movies.

I love all of those movies.

Not only are they just really entertaining, funny, cool-to-look-at movies, but if you really look at their storytelling and their characters that they've chosen to focus on and the themes that they've chosen to focus on, they're telling a brand new type of hero's journey. The hero's journey we're all used to is a boy, usually there's some prophecy that says he's very special. He's already special because he's born that way. He just has to grow up and be brave enough to fight his enemy. And there's some other characters around who are there to help, but it's really about this one guy. All these Disney movies have said— Disney's responsible for many movies that had a female kind of equivalent of that or a version of that, the princess, you know, I'm here to not necessarily go on a journey, but survive my journey so that I can get married. And now we're having these movies that not only say, you know, there's no marriage, we don't have a romantic relationship in this at all, there's not going to be a kiss at the end, but that actually have to do with, in almost all these cases, female characters and male characters discovering each other's strengths and weaknesses teaching each other, finding ways to partner up, and their quest is not to defeat anybody but to find a way of making their worlds better. I mean, that's kind of everything that you would want your children to understand about life, is that your adventure that you're going to go on is not about conquering anyone. It's actually about finding friends and relationships and a support network and partnerships so that you can go and serve some cause greater than yourself that will be a net gain for all. So I just find it very touching and moving that inside this huge business of Disney, there's a group of people who seem to have such a passion and such a love and are so able to hold true to their values that the product that they're releasing is one that has messages like that.

Mm-hmm. Totally. Oh my gosh, I've had the Moana soundtrack in my head, I feel like, for months. Months. It's so good.

It's just good. I was crying in like 30 seconds of that movie.

Oh, the grandma, man. I love that grandma. She's so good. She's the best.

And then she gets to be a, like, a stingray. I know, so cool. Stingray ghost.

I mean, it's just the most beautiful movie too.

Just like so beautifully made, you know, made with love, made with love, and making billions of dollars at the same time.

At the same time. Check, check, America, man.

What's moving you?

Oh gosh, okay, well, I feel, um, kind of stupid about this one, but I'm gonna share it anyway because I just— when I sit down to do these, I think, okay, where's the last time where my stomach dropped or my breath caught or I just stopped the crazy for a moment. And that was this morning. And it's probably not the thing that has moved me the most, but it's the most recent stomach drop moment. And that was whatever, since in the last several months, just sick about the world, right? Just, oh my gosh, there's all kinds of things to be upset about. And, um, in the last few days, my kids went back to school and so did like everybody else's kids. And I got so swept into the back-to-school pictures and that my Facebook feed completely changed. It went from all kinds of political stuff and really turmoil.

Cities underwater.

Exactly. And all this real stuff that's happening that is worth paying attention to and worth being upset about. And over the course of 3 days, my Facebook feed now is full of happy pictures of kids heading off to school and parents wishing them well and feeling anxious on their behalf. And I just— it was so stark, this shift, and it just gave me pause this morning. I thought, I don't know if I want it one way or the other, but I would like— One has been to the exclusion of the other, it seems to me, in either way. And both ways don't feel good in terms of like how you stay in touch. And so it's, I don't have an answer. I don't even have a cool thing to point anybody to. I'm just, I was struck this morning about this divide that I feel about these two parts of my life. And I am an expert compartmentalizer. And it's very useful sometimes, but not always healthy. This morning I was like, oh my gosh, how do I break down these walls? Can I be embedded in this world of turmoil and also send my kids off to school joyfully and happily and wish them well? Like, yes, of course I can. We have to.. But it just feels like the system of how I'm putting things in front of myself, I feel like I'm one or the other or something. I don't know.

Yeah.

You know what I'm thinking about?

Yeah. That's powerful. And it reminds me of sort of the soldier with the snapshot of the fiancée back home, you know, in the pocket of the uniform. You do need to sometimes remind yourself what it means to be human, what we are fighting for, for everyone, what we all deserve, what the potential is in the new generation. And it's sort of clumsy that our aggregators, you know, throw these pictures in front of us in this way. That's not, you know, not anyone's deliberate choice. It's just, it's how collectively we've structured things.

Right. But, you know, it's because I liked a billion school pictures is what happened there. I was like, oh yay.

Oh yay.

Oh yay. Oh cute. Oh my God.

And I'm at the point where I can't get anybody's personal pictures anymore because I've just been liking all the political posts so much. I'm sort of like, can I just, can somebody put something funny here?

I know. Help break this up for me. They have to know it's not healthy to only see one type of post.

Yeah, but you know, we— nobody's in control. It's, uh, it's the computer saying, well, this is what you seem to be liking, right? So we see ourselves reflected back at us and we find a story to tell that will make sense of it.

That's exactly— you defined it perfectly— the stomach drop moment. I was like, oh, this is what I'm surrounding myself with right now. And that's what I was surrounding myself with 3 days ago. And it's totally different. It's amazing.

And with the news coming so fast every day, I do sort of wake up with more dread than usual of, okay, what's going to be the thing that I get in front of me all day to day. Now, of course, you know, there are people who, for whom, that's their real life is dread. And that isn't the case for me. So seeing it on my feed is not a serious problem. Right. But, you know, we do need to be living our lives and taking action, including the action of raising our children. And educating them. And, um, that is an important thing that we do to bring, uh, to bring health and justice to our society.

Let's go raise those kids, Colin. Let's go.

It takes enough of our time, so we might as well do it as best as we can and make the most of it.

Yeah, I really don't want at the end of it be like, ah, I really screwed up. I really don't.

But of course we will, right?

I know. I mean, yes, I've screwed up a lot and I will continue to, but you know, you want to, you want to, you want to feel proud of the effort. It is.

It is. And it's just heartbreaking and exhilarating all every day.

Every day, even within a few minutes. It's amazing. The roller coaster ride.

Yep. You're talking to me on my kids' very first day. Is the day.

Hey everybody, thanks for joining me on that episode. Colin is amazing and I'm so— was really grateful for his time to come join me and talk more about this important topic. Um, because man, speaking, this is not just about us becoming more skilled speakers. There's, there's a need for this in the world, and so I'm on board. I'm ready, and I know you are too. So, hey, I want to tell you something before you shut this off and move on to the next podcast in your queue, because I know you're about to do that. Just wait, wait, wait, hang on. And that is this: over on my website, I've got some new stuff happening. I've got all kinds of new goodies for you that I'm really excited about. I created an ultimate presentation prep checklist, okay? So you can walk through, and it goes over the highlights of all the steps that you should be taking as you're getting your talk ready, okay? And it's sort of a precursor to this course that I'm creating that digs into it much more deeply, and it will soon be out online. So I really want you to go check it out. Check out that presentation prep checklist, you can download it. Super easy peasy. It's on my website. And I've got a whole bunch of other things too. I'm not gonna tell you now because you wanna get going to your next podcast. I totally get it. I can take a hint. Go check it out now. thismovedme.com. We'll see you there.

Bye.