173: Matt Abrahams - On Speaking Up Without Freaking Out

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun.

Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task.

I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh. So we're waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Hey movers, it's Sally Koering Zimney, and welcome back to another interview episode here on This Moved Me. I know I've been sprinkling in some mini Moved Me episodes, and if you following along along on any of my social media channels, you see I, I, I, there's a lot of talking happening. I'm doing a lot of talking right now, which challenges me. It's not my favorite thing. I mean, I like to talk, but I don't like to promote myself. But I do, all of this talk and, and energy and excitement is around this awesome thing that I'm really excited to be launching soon. I'm not saying a date yet, but I'm launching soon this online course. It's 30 Days to a Kick-Butt Presentation. That means that I'm gonna help you write a talk if you've got a talk coming up, or if you wanna rewrite something, or if you have the signature talk that you know you need, right? Everybody's got a TED Talk in them. Everybody needs their own signature talk, which sounds a little weird, but I think it's true. We have something to say in this world, and that's why you're listening to this show, I know. Anywho's it, what's it. If you are somebody who is determined for yourself to get that done, but you don't want to do it alone because it's such an isolating process, and how do you start, and how do you know that what you have is good, and what are all the steps to do this? It can feel so overwhelming. So I'm going to take some of that overwhelm away and walk with you on the process of it. So that is launching soon. And what comes with all of that is I'm really building out some content around it so that you can learn a little bit more about it and kind of get some insight into my process and how that all works. So, yeah, so there's a lot happening over on This Moved Me, and it's been a really exciting time, and I feel happily overwhelmed by it all. But I wanted to keep us grounded in our interviews because I find them to be refreshing to do. I love doing them and I love sharing them because there are all these incredible people out in the world doing really big things. And one of them is today's guest. His name is Matt Abrahams. And Matt was introduced to me by a woman named Carmen Simon. And Carmen is this brilliant, like, neuroscientist meets keynote speaker. And she talks all about memory and she's going to be on the show too. We just have to schedule it. Scheduling is hard. But she, as we were scheduling her episode, said to me, "And you should have my friend Matt on the show." And I watched some of Matt's talks and thought, "Oh my gosh, this guy's got some really great content, really helpful, all about tackling our anxiety." And Matt is a professor at Stanford, but also does some coaching out in the corporate world, all about how to become more confident and connected and compelling. And I love those words. I use those words a lot myself. So I was like, "Yes, we've got a A lot of alignment here, and I'm really excited to share some of his insight with you about how we can overcome our anxiety about speaking. And everybody's got it. Do not lie to yourself. Everybody's got it, varying degrees, and it has a varying impact on us. But I don't care who you are, how experienced you are, how skilled you are, how successful you are, we are all battling some of something, away so that we can show up and really own the moment and enjoy the moment. So I'm really excited to share some of this insight with you. Here he is, Matt Abrahams. But you know, of course, I like to start, Matt, with getting a sense of you and your story. And, you know, you're a professor at Stanford. That's big time, Matt. I'm sure you know this.

And thank you.

And you do coaching. You're out in the world working with, it sounds like, really businesses and kind of corporate executive teams. Is that right?

Correct. Yeah.

So how did you get there? Like, what, what was the path to being a communications guy?

Well, so my introduction to communication started when I was very, very young. So when I was 14 years old, a freshman in high school, in our English class, we all had to stand up and introduce ourselves. And Mr. Meredith, he was ancient at the time, had me go first. My last name being Abrahams, I was often the person who got to go first. And at the end of the class, he pulled me aside and said, "Hey, you're pretty good at this talking thing." Those were his words exactly. And he said, "I need you." I want you on this Saturday to show up to the novice speech and debate tournament, and you're going to go give a talk. I said, all right, because I was 14 and did whatever the teachers told me.

Yeah.

So with a week of practice, I prepared a presentation. It was to be a 10-minute talk on something I was passionate about. So that early morning I get up in front of teachers, my fellow students, the girl I happened to like, and I began to give a speech on karate. It was something that I was passionate about. I'm still passionate about the martial arts. And I started my presentation. With a karate kick because I was told start with something to get people's attention. I was so nervous about speaking in front of all these people. I had forgotten to put on my karate pants. So I was in my normal school clothes and I ripped my pants from zipper to belt buckle, belt loop, a gaping crevasse in the first 10 seconds of a 10-minute presentation. And in that moment I realized just how important communication can be and what anxiety can do to people who get in situations like I was in. So from that moment on, I've always been fascinated by communication. I went to undergrad and studied psychology. And my interest in psychology was around communication and interaction. I went to graduate school in communication. Afterwards, I had to pay off some student loans. So I went to work in the corporate world. And there I got my first dose of just how important communication is in the workplace and how often people who are very bright and have really good ideas aren't necessarily the ones who are promoted or have their ideas followed through with simply because they're not effective at communicating. So I took the academic knowledge I had from grad school, saw it in the real world, and then was fortunate enough to get back to academe. I come from a family of teachers. I've always been passionate about teaching. And so that's something that I've done. And through that experience, having real-world experience, bringing it to the classroom, I then went to the next step and took from the classroom back to the real world. So not only do I teach, that I consult.

I love that. I think that combination is rare, right? That to be in academia, but also have this strong grounding in the practical and the real world. And how is this working? It's not just theory, because I love theory. I mean, I loved school. Want to keep going back to school. Just keep grading me and telling me how great I am, please.

Grading is the hardest part of teaching.

I'm sure.

But I think I'm—

It's like getting graded. Yeah, I was one of those students.

I see. Well, you're getting an A+ so far.

Thank you.

Thank you. You know what I like to say is it's really important when people learn communication skills to really understand the why behind the what. There are lots of people who will tell you what to do, but it's really important if you want to make a fundamental change to understand why it's good to do that. And that's where the academic background can really help. So I agree with you totally that having that blend really can help people change. The students I teach, the clients to work with.

It's really powerful. So, and you mentioned, of course, like, the core thread that, that I've seen in your work and in the talks that I've seen is really about anxiety and speaking, because that is— I mean, everybody deals with it, whether you're, uh, incredibly successful, right? No one would think that you would be nervous. No, they're dealing with their own anxieties. And of course, people who, like, this is such an unfamiliar, really challenging space for people to step into. So tell me, like, why anxiety aside from like the karate kicking moment?

Right. Yes.

Because you've stuck with it. This is a core thread for your work.

Well, to me it's an entry point, right? So I'm all about helping people be more confident, being more connected and compelling when they speak. But you really can't get to the connected and compelling piece until you manage the confidence piece. Yeah. Early on in my own life. But when I began teaching and when I was in the corporate world, the biggest barrier to people being successful, to getting their ideas out there, to telling their stories is that they get really nervous. And what was interesting to me as, as a student, both as an undergrad and a grad student, is I saw that in the academic literature, there were lots of studies talking about how we can manage anxiety. Yet for some reason, that information wasn't making it out to the general public. The standard approach that was in the public domain for a long time was what I call the PB&J approach, which is just, it's practice, it's breathe, and then just do it. And that PB&J approach is not enough for most people. I had students early on in my teaching career who would leave the class saying, thank you so much for giving me all these really helpful tools. The problem is I can't use any of them because I'm too darn nervous to speak in front of people. So that really had me direct my attention to anxiety management early. And then And once people begin to feel more confident, they can layer on these other skills that make them really connected and compelling communicators.

Nice.

Okay.

So I think what I really want to focus our conversation on is around this anxiety piece because you are doing moving beyond this PB&J thing, which I love. I think that's so true for a lot of people. That that's not enough and they want to know, like, the adrenaline is coursing through me. And, you know, like one of my speakers yesterday, she's like, I just, I have dry mouth. And what do you do beyond, um, well, drink lots of water? It's just like, no, the adrenaline takes over. It is a primal thing that we can do better than just get through it, you know? So absolutely. Give me some of your big tenets on how to deal with anxiety.

Sure. So I take a two-pronged approach to dealing with anxiety. I, I say first we have to deal with the symptoms and then we also have to deal with the sources. So everybody has different symptoms that they experience. You, the previous guest you were talking about had dry mouth. Some people perspire when they're nervous, other people get shaky, some have all of those symptoms and there are things we can do to manage those symptoms. And then similarly, we have to address the What are the sources? Why is it that we're getting anxious? So if you don't mind, let me give you an example on each side of that equation. So, uh, for people who get blush or perspire when they get nervous, that's because your core body temperature is going up. As you get nervous, your heart beats faster. You take in more oxygen, you breathe more shallow, and your muscles tense up. So with a faster beating heart and smaller blood vessels to get that blood through, your blood pressure goes up, which drives your core body temperature up, which makes complete sense. If you are running away from a threat, you're getting ready to fight that threat, it makes sense to be energized and ready to go. The problem is there are ancillary symptoms that come with that, blushing and perspiring. So we can reduce our core body temperature relatively easily. You know when you get sick and you put a cold compress on your forehead or the back of your neck? Yeah. It turns out the palms of your hands work exactly the same way. So by simply holding something cold before you present or lead a meeting, you can reduce your core body temperature. You, you and I were talking before we started this, that, that you live in a colder climate than I do. I bet on those cold days you take some warm coffee or some warm tea and hold it in your hand and that warms you up. We can work in reverse. So if you are somebody who blushes or sweats, hold something cold and that'll reduce your core body temperature and reduce those symptoms. So that's an example. Of symptomatic relief. Now, on the other side of the equation, it's the sources. What makes you nervous? And there are many sources for people's anxiety. The one that I'll share with you now is that when we present or when we lead a meeting, we feel like everybody's judging us, everybody's evaluating us. And a great way to manage this source of evaluation anxiety is to distract your audience, engage them in something that keeps them busy so that they're not paying attention to you. I'll give you a great example. I coached a senior executive at a very large tech startup that many people know and use their products. He gets really nervous and he has to get up in front of his whole team, which is 900 people. What he did most recently is he started his meeting with a video. He said, "Good morning, everybody. Please watch this video." He showed them a 2-minute video. And in that time, he was taking deep breaths. He was relaxing himself. And then he became a facilitator of that experience rather than a presenter. So, you can take a poll, show a video, ask a question, have people turn to each other and introduce themselves. All of those activities distract them from evaluating you and have the added benefit of getting them engaged with your content so that they're more ready to participate. So in both examples, there are things we can do with symptoms, holding something cold, and sources, by giving our audience something to do that's engaging and get their attention off us. So that's how I approach anxiety. Mm-hmm.

Nice. And I'm sure people come to you all the time with, I have this problem. This happens. What do I do? You know, it's like, what are some of the big tips and tricks that you use with people? I love the, like, you hold something cool in your hand and it lowers your body temperature. What about the shakes?

Yeah, so that's that adrenaline coursing through your body. And what most nervous people do is they make themselves small and tight when they get nervous. That's just a natural response. And instead, if you engage big muscles, so when you start a presentation, if you extend your arms and say, welcome everybody, Or if you start shaking hands with people before you start a meeting, by engaging those big muscles, you give that adrenaline a place to go rather than holding it in tight. So nervous speakers who shake a lot, I recommend that they step forward, that they do big, broad gestures. If you're running a meeting, go around and shake people's hands or gesture broadly to the screen or the whiteboard. And by engaging those muscles, you actually get that adrenaline out of your system and you shake less.

Okay. Have you ever heard of the woman, uh, Gillian Faraby?

Hmm.

Tell me about Gillian. Maybe I've heard of the work.

She's based out of Canada, I believe. Uh, but I met her at a conference and she was a talent scout for Cirque du Soleil for a long time.

Oh, wow. Yeah.

And she's a brilliant speaker and she's just got some really incredible ideas and Some of what she was talking about was essentially how we manage the stress of performing. And so she was, she was talking about some of these same things. It's really fascinating about if you feel like this, then she gives sort of an opposite physicality that you can take on to help combat some of those or to like, so engaging those large muscles. Right. Right. Just like re— I don't know actually how it works scientifically.

Well, so, so we absolutely, by reprogramming the experience you feel, so reframing it mentally, but doing some physical response to the anxiety can help. I'm sure you've heard of power posing and how taking a big stance not only makes you seem more confident to your audience, but there's some research, although controversial now, that suggests you begin to feel more confident. So there are things that we can do with our physicality that influence the way that we perceive the experience we're going through. That's absolutely the case.

So I have an acting background, and so I have a strong belief in sort of the outside-in coaching method. And I'm sure you do some of this too, like the holding the cup is really an outside-in, right? You, you're doing something different and it it changes what's happening internally. And the power poses are kind of the same way. And I think whatever works is—

Right.

Well, and my whole approach is that everybody has to create their own unique anxiety management plan. Everybody is different. We have different experiences, different expectations. So the book I wrote has over 50 techniques that are validated by academic research. And I'm happy if 3 to 5 of those techniques work for any one person. So I don't expect every technique work for every person. We're all different. We all have different baggage. We all have different trajectories. So the goal is to find what works for you and then hone it and use it reliably.

Nice, nice, nice, nice. Okay, so you said something earlier that I think is really interesting. We're talking about, um, really shifting your approach from, I'm not a presenter, I'm a facilitator, and that really feeling more comfortable for people and opens them up to the experience in a different way. Um, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. I think that's really interesting how just changing what we call the role that we play, how that changes how we behave.

It's very interesting. So seeing yourself in service of your audience rather than as a performer can change it as well. So if my goal as a communicator is to get my ideas, thoughts, and feelings across to you in a way that can help you in some way, shape, or form, that changes my whole attitude towards the communication. I am in service of you rather than being a evaluated and judged by you. Sometimes it's as simple as changing the way you prepare. So many people will either create manuscripts, which I actually think is a big problem because you're creating the right way to say it. And that puts a lot of pressure on yourself. Often people will create outlines, which I am a big fan of. But if you create an outline that is question-based rather than declarative, it changes your orientation to your audience. So if you were to look at my lecture notes or when I do a big keynote or a TED Talk or something of that nature, you'll see, that my outline is all a series of questions. So I am simply answering the unasked question of my audience. And that puts me in a very different relationship with them. I'm helping them. I'm conversing with them. And so the way in which we frame our role and our relationship with the audience can really fundamentally change the way we feel and ultimately change the quality of the communication. So I think you're exactly right. That how we see ourself in relationship to our communication and others really does matter.

Yeah, I have a funny story. I don't think I've shared this on the show before, but I was doing a workshop for a corporate group a few months ago. And the, we do the first day, we kind of talk about the mechanics of speaking. And then the second day, everybody comes and share something, and then I do some live coaching. And this woman, the day 2, I walked in and she looked really unhappy and miserable, and I was like, I better go check in. So I kind of walked over and I was like, how's it going? And she was like, I do not want to be here. I hate this and I don't want to do it. And I was like, okay. You know, like, tell me more, what's going on? And she goes, you know what, you love this, I can tell you love this. And every time— I'm gonna give you a little feedback right now, Sally. And I was like, okay, wow, it was really intense. She said, every time you get happy about speaking, I just shut you off. And I was like, okay, yeah, that's, that's fair, fair, good feedback.

Yeah.

So she was really resistant to this thing, um, and I said— she's like, I'm not a speaker, I'm not a speaker. But she was there. She had been asked to be there because she was a leader, right? And they wanted her to use her voice more, to lead her meetings with more confidence. So, right, so I said to her, I was like, okay, you're not a speaker, that's okay, we're very different She was like, you're right, I love this stuff. And it's okay, you don't have to love it. You don't have to love it. But I said, does it change how you feel at all if you think of yourself not as a speaker, but as a teacher? And she was like, hmm, I don't know, I'll think about it. But eventually, you know, she got up and she spoke and she did an amazing job. And it wasn't polished and it wasn't, performative, but we were watching her like barrel through this thing that she didn't want to do. And she actually brought like a level of vulnerability to what she did in a way that you don't see very often. And so I was just like, I was so amazed. And she afterwards came up to me and she was like, I really resented this. Yes, but I'm so glad I did it. I just thought, that's huge.

Congratulations to you and to her.

To her, right? Because she just did, she took on the challenge that I had laid out in front of her, which she didn't have to.

That's true. No, I think that's really commendable. And you know, it's funny, as you were saying that, I was smiling because I often tell people the work we do is like going to the dentist. Nobody likes going, but everybody's glad they've gone. And so your story exactly represents that. And I see that all the time in my students where there's just, you know, scouring faces at the beginning of the academic quarter. And then at the end, they're just so thrilled that they have the skills and that they got through. So I get that feeling and it's rewarding as a coach or as an instructor to see that.

It's hugely rewarding. And people feel so proud of themselves after they've done something that they know is good to do, but they know it's hard. It's hard and challenging for everybody, let alone people who are like, this is the last thing I want to do. It's not me.

But sometimes they need to. I mean, they're required to by their position, or it's their— they have really important information that they're just so passionate about that they're compelled to do it. And that's where folks like us can help them, give them the skills and the confidence to do it.

Yeah.

For sure.

So do you see— this is a pure curiosity question for me, but, you know, as you move between these two worlds of the corporate business world and graduate school, right, which I know on the whole is younger people.

Yes, mostly, but I have a wide variety of age ranges in my my courses. Stanford has some really fantastic programs that invite people who are very senior and have had a long career. I see some of them in my classes, but most, by and large, I would say they skew younger, certainly younger than I am.

Well, I'm curious what sort of distinctions you see in those two audiences that you have and how that affects what you do or what you're offering to people, or maybe it doesn't. I'm just curious.

Well, at a foundational level, I think we're all the same. People are nervous about speaking. People are concerned about how they come across. They want their messages to get out there. So in some ways, I think we're very similar. When you look at different age categories or people who have some different experience, have a little more road experience, you see different approaches. So folks who have— worked for a while or who have a lot of direct experience, they understand that they are able to take a perspective on their communication that's a little different. It's like, I understand this is high stakes, but I've been through high stakes speaking before. I know there are consequences, some intended, some unintended. And it's nice to hear those voices in the workshops I teach or in the classes I teach. And then there's a young, creative, innovative energy that comes from those who are, who are newer to it. Who have different approaches. Why do we have to do it that way? What if we were to do it this way? That's exciting to see as well. I'll tell you, we had a debate in one of my courses on strategic communication just the other week where the topic was, "Are emojis appropriate in today's business world?" I don't know where we landed on it. There was really high intensity in the debate, but I can tell you 10 years from now, they absolutely will be appropriate and acceptable. Acceptable. Today, I think the jury's still out. But so it's fun to just have those discussions. And it's fun to think about those implications. So when you're dealing with different groups, like I have the fortune— I'm very fortunate to do, it's really interesting to see what issues boil up to the top, for sure.

Yeah, I mean, kind of circling back to this, but the strength of living in both of those worlds I think benefits the other places that, that you go to, to bring theory into the workplace, which can be very tools and tips and just like, tell me what to do and how to do it and just keep it strategic. And, you know, and sometimes I'm like, oh, we have to tap into more of why this matters and why is it worth spending all this time and energy and resources on this? Because it is. But you've got to be tapped into something a little bit deeper. And vice versa, sometimes, you know, academia can get so bogged down in the why, they forget the how. So—

Yeah, exactly. And the courses that I and my colleagues teach are very popular, I think, for exactly the reason you're talking about, because people see the direct value and it's immediate. You know, it's unusual in any educational setting where at the end of a particular class you can go out, apply the stuff right away and see immediate results.

Yeah.

And in courses like communication courses, you can do that. You can leave the class and 2 minutes later put it into practice and see. And so there is something to that that's different than many other types of classes students take, for sure.

So if you had to give just a few pieces of advice to somebody, you know, without knowing them personally or knowing what their particular anxieties are about? If you were to say, you know, somebody said, "Generally, I have a lot of anxiety," what's maybe 3 pieces that you would offer to them so that they can head out and, like you said, start implementing things right away?

3 is hard, but let me try it.

Or whatever, 1 or 2.

I know I've got tons of them.

So, okay, 10.

The first thing I would say is what I've already talked about. Remember, as a communicator, you are in service of your audience. And when you put yourself in that perspective, it changes the pressure that you put on yourself. It changes the relationship. It is collaborative. You're there to help, not to be judged. So number 1 is see yourself in service. It's all about what your audience needs. It's not necessarily what you need to accomplish. Second, have a clear goal for the communication. Most of us, when we communicate, we discover what it is we want to say as we're saying, rather than having a clear goal. And to me, a clear goal has 3 parts. It's about information, emotion, and action. So what is it you want your audience to know? What is it you want them to feel? And what is it you want them to do at the end of your meeting your email, your presentation, whatever it is you're communicating. And then the final bit of advice that can help people feel very confident is have some logical structure to what you're saying. Don't just ramble. Have a logical rationale for what it is you're saying. It could be something as simple as, I'm going to share with you what the problem is or how I see the problem. Here's the solution that I think we should follow, and here are the benefits if we go about doing that. So the approach being audience-centric, that is you're in service of them, having a clear goal, what you want people to know, feel, and do when you're done, and then having a logical structured way of communicating. Those three ideas I think form the foundation of all confident, connected, and compelling presenting and communicating.

I love it. And you and I both share a love for the word connected.

Yes.

And, uh, we, I don't hear that super often out in the presentation world. I think people go, yes, yes, that's important. But it does change. If the goal is connection, it does change the approach in, I think, a powerful way. And it was part of the reason why when I watched you speak, I watched the video, I was like, I really want to have him on the show because I think we share an alignment on that. And I I want more of that out in the world.

Well, let's keep doing that. Let's keep spreading the word because I totally agree. Connection is critical and connection is about relevance. Connection is about understanding and empathy. And connection is about drawing people towards your point of view. And it's to me foundational in effective communication. If you look at the speakers we admire most, they're very good at being connected. Yep.

Oftentimes there are speakers who are creating disconnection when of course that's not what they want to do, but there's all kinds of things people do that inadvertently create these barriers between you and the people you're trying to impact. And it is about seeing yourself in service, I think, to the audience is the really critical shift because—

Right, we have this tendency to think communication is all about us and our message, when in fact I think that's exactly the wrong place to shine the spotlight. The spotlight's on the people receiving the communication. And sometimes the most effective thing we can do as communicators is listen in advance of speaking to figure out what needs to be said, and then listen to the responses we're getting as we speak so we can adjust.

So yeah, you do this whole really great— I'm just gonna give you a little plug on this, but you do this whole really great thinking fast—

Think Fast, Talk Smart.

Think Fast. Thank you. I was like, it's something, but about how to respond in the moment, like Q&As, or you're in a controversial conversation, feedback. And that's obviously a little bit different than, than what we've been talking about as a speaker, but I think it's really important and so practical because everybody's in that situation, I think, probably more often than they are up on stage.

I would agree. Most business communication is spontaneous. It's not planned. You know, when you're walking to the elevator and your boss says, "Hey, what did you think about that?" You don't say, "Wait a moment, let me bring up my slides and I'll tell you." You respond in the moment.

"Can I get back to you in a few hours after I think it through?" Exactly.

But to me, spontaneous speaking is something that you build on top of these foundational skills that we've been talking about. You have to have the right approach and the management of your anxiety to be able to free yourself up to do the more spontaneous speaking. So to me, I actually see it as a next step for those who are working on communication skills.

Really nice. Well, there's more that I'd love to hear about that, but it is time for us to move to a This Moved Me moment, Matt. Okay. Something that maybe has moved you recently. It could be It doesn't have to be a talk or a presentation. It could be anything that has moved you because I really believe that we as speakers, we've got to stay in tune with that for ourselves and for our audiences. So, what are they?

I appreciate the opportunity to share. I know this is going to date us in terms of— because it's very current in the news, but tragically last week there was a horrific school shooting in Florida and it was was just absolutely horrific. 17 people died. Many people are still critically injured. That in and of itself was very moving and sad. What has been just amazing to me is the teenagers from that school and others around the state and the country, actually, mobilizing. And to hear these young people so eloquently expressing their concerns and their desires, to me, is just fantastic. It embodies everything that you and I do for a living, encouraging people to speak their mind and to share their points of view, and in some cases hold the powers that be to task. Regardless of where you fall politically in this debate, you have to be in awe of 15-, 16-, 17-year-olds having the courage and the motivation. It moves me so much to hear these people. And like you, I hear people speak all the time, thousands and thousands of presentations, and to hear this just organically happening is amazing to me. And I've been very moved by it.

I completely agree with you. And what's funny is, you know, I recorded a show earlier today, and this is the exact conversation we had then too, because— and I'm totally cool with that, right? Because it is what is happening right now. And it, it is astounding. I mean, I feel flabbergasted by it all, though, all of it, and just which is sick.

Right.

It's, you know, I've been crying nonstop for a week. And they're not— they are, they're all of our kids. They're all of our kids, which is why I just feel so proud of these young people who are incredibly poised. Right. I mean, I'm just shocked at how they are just bravely walking into these moments when adults haven't, haven't done it for them, and they're doing it. And I'm just in awe of them.

Me too. And it, in addition, it just gives you hope in a situation that feels hopeless. And so to me, it definitely has moved me and continues to move me, and I hope it will continue to move me for for a long time to come.

I turned to my 13-year-old and I was like, you guys are going to save the world. Thank you. You guys are going to save the world. No pressure. We couldn't do it. Like, I tried. I mean, and I'm still trying, but thank God for you guys.

Absolutely. Totally agree.

Amazing.

Well, I'm going to offer another one, which is not related to the school shooting tragedy, but I love This American Life and it's, you know, whatever, everybody listens to this podcast. This is not, it's not like everyone go just check out this new podcast I discovered. No, but they had a show on in the recent past called Why Is This So Hard? And it's about the political gridlock. And it struck me when I listened to it this week, and it didn't come out this week, it came out in the last few weeks maybe. So it was pre-all of this stuff, and yet it really resonated about— and they really dug into, um, why, why is this so hard even though the majority of Americans Americans want sensible gun reform. Why is this so hard? Why is this not happening? And they really were talking about the immigration debate and saying, "Well, a far majority of Americans want some sensible reform." And there's stuff we can do to make the path a little way, a little easier for people. Like, why isn't it happening? So it was really interesting to me. I was fascinated by it. I wasn't— if anything, it just sort of— I felt exasperated by the end of it and felt honestly a little hopeless about it, which is why the young people this week have been so— such a boon to me. I'm like, oh, right, thank you. They are not— the rest of us have, right, whatever, we're stuck. They're busting through that.

Well, often disruption comes from something different, and, and they offer a different point of view and a different approach, and that's going to be— that's going to hopefully, as you said, save us.

And in a few short years, they'll be voting.

That's right. And their parents vote.

And their parents vote. And you can't— as a parent, I would just be I'm bursting with pride. I just would—

Yes, me as well.

All right. Well, Matt, this has been really fun. I'm going to let you go because I know we've kind of gone over our time a little bit, but I so appreciate you taking time to join me.

I appreciate the invitation. It's been great to chat with a like-minded person, and I wish you well and continue to do the good work you do to help others feel better about their communication as well.

Thank you.

You too.

So Matt, where can people find you if they want to find more info about you?

Let me give you two places to go. The consulting company I co-founded is BoldEcho.com. We want people to be bold in their messaging and we want those messages to echo long after they're gone. A website I curate for people who really want to work on becoming more confident, connected, and compelling is called NoFreakingSpeaking.com. A whole bunch of free resources there, stuff I've written, stuff others have written that can really help people. And nofreakingspeaking.com, and both sites will point to the book I wrote Speaking Up Without Freaking Out!

Love it!

That's awesome!

Thanks so much Matt!

Thank you for listening— thank you Spencer, we're just happy to be here! Hey thanks for listening to... that sounded weird! Like, so car salesman-y. But yes, thank you for listening to another show here on This Moved Me and for sticking with me. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Matt Abrahams. So much alignment with his goals and mine. And here's a funny little tidbit, you guys: he is gonna be speaking at the Presentation Summit in San Diego in September, and so will I. So I'll get to meet him in person, which which is cool. And it's just a little reminder to all of you out there, if you are in the presentation industry, if you are somebody who is delivering presentations, and I know there's a lot of you out there who are, if you create them, if you are on the marketing or communications team, oh man, it is such an amazing, wonderful few days, and it's professional development and plus a heck of a lot of fun. Oh my gosh, it's so much fun. So I'd love to see you guys there. And just an FYI, I'm going to be doing like 4 different talks there. I'm super jazzed about it, but prices go up in 2 weeks on June 1st. So now is the time, and talk to your boss about it because it's worth it. And there's all kinds of information on the betterpresenting.com website. Just Google, uh, the Presentation Summit and you'll find it. So Matt's gonna be there speaking and I'll be there speaking. So I'd love to see all of you there. And on that note, there is another— I've got a lot of announcements for you guys, so hang with me here. There is another conference that you guys hear me talk about a lot because it is very near and dear to my heart, and that is the Story Gathering. That is happening in September as well. In fact, it's right before the Presentation Summit. Summit. So I'll be in Nashville for the Story Gathering, and then I zip over to San Diego, which is probably more than a zip, but yeah, I head over to San Diego for the Presentation Summit. And the Story Gathering, I am doing one of the coveted pre-conference workshops. I'm so excited. It's gonna be a full whole day thing, and I'm so jazzed, I can't tell you. And there's only room for 50 people, We're gonna do some, uh, just like deep dive into how we can move people more authentically, uh, and really bring ourselves to the moment with more clarity and courage. And then we're gonna do a whole section of live coaching, and that is my absolute favorite thing to do. So I would love to see you there. And if you use the code "thismovedme," ALLCAPS, you can get $50 off your fee. And their prices are also going up in the next few weeks. So you guys, if you are thinking about it, if you are on the fence on that, if you have listened to these guests on the show and thought these are amazing people— because they are— then you've got to get to Nashville in September. I think it's the 21st and 22nd. Don't quote me on that, but whatever, I'm gonna be there. And I'd love to see you there.

In fact, I already know a few listeners who are going.

So that'll be really fun. I'm super jazzed. Okay, so Story Gathering, I'll see you there. Presentation Summit, join me in San Diego. Let's do this. It'll be awesome. Okay, so we've got that stuff out of the way. I've got a few more big announcements for you. So at the beginning of the show, I talked about this online courses and they're coming.

It's coming.

I've been talking about it forever. It's coming. I've been really busy with lots of clients and lots of speakers in the last few months, which is awesome and so fun and I love it, but it has, it keeps kicking my online stuff down the field. But no more, because I am doing some big internal work and T-minus 1 month, almost to the day but not quite, T-minus 1 month I will have a new website, and on that new website I will be launching some online courses. And I'm calling them— my platform, my online course platform is called Movers U, as in Movers University. We are going to learn how to move our audience. So I'm really excited. I'm just baby stepping in, okay, because I've got big plans. The signature course is down the line, but I'm going to start by dripping out some mini courses for you all to test out. And here's the deal, if you want to test out some of my content, you can give me lots of feedback, of course, um, which is so valuable. If you would want to be one of my beta testers, please reach out to me. Okay, you guys know how to get a hold of me. You can find me all over the interwebs. You can pop on my website, send me a note. But if you want to be a beta tester for these courses, let me know, and I would really love and appreciate that because I want to make sure that they're valuable and worthwhile and hitting on the right notes for you. And if that— if the timing doesn't work or if that's not your cup of tea for whatever reason and you want to be one of the first people to get in on the course, get on my waiting list. In fact, even if you want to be a beta tester, you want to get on my waiting list list because, uh, anybody who's on my waiting list is going to get 50% off in this initial phase of these courses. Okay, so once they go live and they're available for anybody and everybody to purchase, you will get them at a 50% discounted price. That's awesome.

Okay, that's a really big deal.

That's saving you a lot of money. So, uh, I hope that that is many of you.

So the link that you are going to go to.

You've got to go find it on my website, okay? Because it's too weird right now, and I didn't set it up so it's not weird. But right now it's just— it's a weird link. So you got to go to my website, thismoveme.com, find this episode, okay, with Matt Abrahams. And if you scroll down, there's a link right there, and in the links and resources section, and it will say Today, sign up, get on the waiting list. Okay, so I know I'm asking you to do a lot there. Okay, I'm sorry that it's not easier. It's just not. I'm sorry, it's the end of the school year. It's crazy. There's brunches and concerts and so many concerts, end of the year things, and soccer and baseball and track and—

oh my gosh, deep breathing, deep breathing.

There's really exciting things coming down the pipeline. So T-minus 1 month. Gosh, it's a lot, but it's good stuff, okay? And I'm super jazzed about it. So thank you to you— yes, you, I'm talking to you— for joining me on the journey here at This Moved Me. Hope you are doing great and that your May is not not as crazy as mine.

That's my hope for you. But I'm changing.

I'm— it's not crazy. Overwhelm is a choice. Yep, overwhelm is a choice. I don't feel overwhelmed. It's fine. It's, uh, busy and fun. All good stuff. Life is good.