175: Tamsen Webster - On How to Get Your Audience to Change

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking, because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful. That's not a small task. I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh, so we're waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet.

Hey movers, it is Sally Koering Zimney and welcome back to This Moved Me. Hopefully you are back because I've got another awesome interview episode for you today. Today we are talking with Tamsyn Webster. And Tamsyn, I know it's such a cool name. Tamsyn is a messaging guru. She's a presentation strategist and helps people develop irresistible ideas. And I love her stuff. I saw some of her stuff online and was like, yes, I want you to come on my show, Tamsyn. And she's so great, gave a ton of her time and tons of her insight on how to not just make your idea irresistible, but then how do you actually change people's behavior? How do you create real actual change? And as she shares in this episode that you are about to dive into, she really digs into the essential ingredients to create real change. So there's a lot that we can play with in our talks and our presentations. Like, there is no one way to do this, but as she says, there are some really essential ingredients that we need if we do want to help walk our audience to that place where they're like with you, on board, not just like, uh, yeah, that's a great idea, but agreement and really taking on your idea and taking it with them, which is of course the point. That is what we are trying to do. We're trying to really impact our audience. So there is tons of good stuff in this episode. I can't wait for you to dive in. And Tamsen herself was such a delight, and she is, she is awesome. I'm so glad that we got to connect, uh, you know, voice to voice, person to person, and I'm really excited to share her with you right now. Here she is, Tamsen Webster.

Honey, names are such a funny thing, aren't they? Because they really do I mean, I don't know if you're a person who believes that you're like, it's like chicken and egg. Do you become like your name? Does your name become like you?

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's, you know, obviously I think there's a point in growing up where most of us would not want to have an unusual name. And I certainly went through that. But I think that it just, any nickname that could be possibly associated with my name was just so distasteful to me. Not because I have any issue with, you know, Tammy or Tam or whatever. For other people, it's lovely. I have lovely friends named Tammy. It's just so not me that eventually I was just like, okay, well, I don't really have an alternative. And my middle name is so just generic that I was just like, all right, I'll just tough it out.

Just gonna own it.

I'm gonna own it. And now I'm glad for it.

Right, because now as a speaker, like, there's— it's memorable, it's unique. You're not gonna fade into the sea of Tamsens, you know?

Right, exactly. So people don't necessarily remember my name exactly, but they know, or they do remember usually that it's unusual in some way, and they're like, you know, usually it's— they'll get there eventually.

So, so tell me a little bit about how you found your way up on stage?

So it's, you know, it's— the question is how far back to go. You know, I've been speaking as part of my profession for about 15, 17 years now. And I say as part of my profession because it's only really been in the last 2 years where it's been a separate income stream for me. The rest of the time I was I would speak on behalf of the companies or the organizations where I worked. But speaking, and for this I'm very grateful, the need and the requirement in certain cases to get up and speak in front of people was one that was involved in my education really from an early age. I remember in elementary school, a day a week I went to another thing for kind of just other classes and stuff like that. And presenting was a, was a part of that. So that was, that was in like 5th and 6th grade. And then where I went to middle school and high school, the graduation requirement from each of those, so the middle school graduation requirement and the high school graduation requirement, was to give us a speech in front of the rest of the class. And so everybody in the 9th grade and every senior had to give a talk to, you know, the 9th graders gave it to the middle school and the seniors gave it to the, to the upper school. And it's funny because I think just as much as the— at the time, like, I, I didn't love it. That wasn't like— I, I, you know, I'm, I'm not necessarily someone who, who was born to the stage and feels comfortable with the stage. Um, but it took out really early on any kind of excuse that I couldn't do it because I already had done it, right? So I didn't have to— liked it necessarily, but I had already done it. Um, but one thing that was always easy for me was, um, helping other people, explaining things to other people, um, helping other people solve problems, helping other people figure out how to get from here to there. And so it, you know, with my, with my jobs, it became I remember the first time somebody said, "Well, would you be willing to come to this conference and speak about what you're doing?" I was like, "Sure. Okay, yeah." And then I remember when social media stuff started coming out. And I remember I saw this woman go speak. I mean, I went to go see this woman speak and her content was fine, but the delivery of it, I was just like, I was like, dude, like, I'm not, it's not that she wasn't good. It was just like, oh, well, okay, well, if that's the bar, then this, I, okay, I can do this. I can do this. So, and of course the way that I'm wired, just, you know, it, I never, I'm never fully satisfied with where I am content or delivery-wise. And so it's just been a, it's been a, it's been a self-inflicted learning experience ever since. But I think that's good. You know, I think I'm always hungry to figure out why certain things work and certain things don't, both for me and for other people. I think joining the National Speakers Association and going to those conferences has been really helpful. Probably not for the reasons that a lot of people would say, but you know, because I came up through marketing and branding, which is my background. So I am what the NSA people would refer to as a content speaker. And meaning that I speak on specific topics. Like, I've always spoken about branding with my jobs, speaking about branding, messaging, when I work with nonprofits, development communications. So it's always been message strategy. Like, how do you talk about things in a way to get people to change their thinking or behavior? It's always been that in one level or another. But so going to NSA, those conferences showed me a whole different kind of speaker that I just didn't even, wasn't even consciously aware of existed. You know, you can, I think my knowledge of other kinds of speakers was probably limited to like Zig Ziglar and Tony Robbins and it just stopped there. And I was like, oh my goodness, there's this huge variety of humorists and entertainers and, you know, just true motivational inspirational speakers. And while that wasn't, and well, I don't ever necessarily see that as specifically my path, there's so much to learn from seeing people whose styles are not yours or have come to speaking from a different way that I just find that endlessly fascinating to see what other people do. And it's been a, those are the things that, you know, I never run out of things to start to keep working on with my own speaking because there's so much inspiration all around. Me, us all the time, right? Yeah.

And, and that hunger, that kind of hunger for self-improvement and just constant iteration, the belief that we're never done, that even when we're— we've got our talk created, it's because it keeps changing.

Yeah, I think— well, there, and there it, it does, and it does. I mean, there really are kind of two different kinds of speakers, and I see this now in the work that I because I work so often with speakers. I mean, there are speakers that like, once they've got it, that's it. Like, it's in the drawer and it's, you know, and they know it so well that, you know, they can do improvs here and there, or they'll change a bit here and there. And then there are some of us, and I definitely put myself in this camp, where it's just never done. And that, it's just, and, you know, and I've come to peace with that recently. Because I felt like, there's so much information out there about speakers that it's fair, and people hold to their position so strongly because we're speakers, we're being paid to deliver an opinion on something, that I think it's really easy to fall into this trap of thinking, "Oh, I must be doing something wrong if I'm not wired that way." And eventually I was just like, "Well, no," 'cause I can see it. There's enough other people wired that way that either there's a significant portion of wrong people or there's just another way to be a speaker. And so maybe self-preservation, I don't know. I'm going with option B, that there's just another way to be a speaker and that some of us do need to, because that's how we stay engaged with it. And other people stay engaged with it because they're just mastering that content that doesn't change. They're just exploring it and playing with it. But others of us, I think that's how we stay engaged with it is because we're always you're tweaking it in a different way. There was a podcast I listened to, it was a while back, but it was, oh, I guess it was Malcolm Gladwell's podcast, but it was fairly early on, and he talked about, the name of the podcast has to do with Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. So it's about, he ends up talking about Elvis Costello and Leonard Cohen and the story of how, Hallelujah became the song that it became, which, you know, it's, you know, most people didn't know it until, and I'm completely spacing on his name right now, recorded it. But now it's like the go-to song. And when anytime anybody anywhere wants people to get weepy, they play that.

That's the song.

That's right. And in the middle of that, Gladwell starts talking about Picasso and Cézanne. Now I have a minor in art history. I wanted to be an art museum director I grew up, so something went wrong there. Because that's not what I am. But he was talking about Cézanne and Picasso as two different kinds of creative artists. And when I heard this, and I'll explain it in just a minute, when I heard this, I'm like, ah, this makes so much sense in the context of how I see people working on their talks. And he described it as, you know, there are creatives that are like Picasso, where they do it essentially once, there's no extensive studies that they're putting together. They basically paint it and it's done. And when it's done, they don't go back and rework it. They just, they do it and it's done. That's how they create. And then there are these artists, and he puts Cézanne in this category, where they obsess on one thing. I mean, there are how many bajillion copies of versions did Cézanne do of peaches in a bowl? Bajillion. And it's because he's just constantly working at it, working at it, working at it. And even when something was done, he would go back and continue to work on it. And of course, he put Leonard Cohen in that second, in that second camp, and Elvis Costello, both of that second camp of continuing to, to work on a, on an idea or a song long after it was there. And again, maybe it's from a self-preservation standpoint, but I remember listening to that and going Oh, okay. So it's not just me even, and it's not just a category of speakers. It's actually a whole kind of category of creative approach that some of us just keep working at it. And some of us don't, and they are— you can be equally great. And I think you can say that with Picasso and Cézanne. You can talk about Leonard Cohen and many, many other songwriters that it's just kind of like, there's just another way.

Yeah.

And I like that. Yeah, for sure.

And it's interesting because I'm sure the people who come and find me and who want to work with me are in the second camp, right? They're people who, even if they've got something, it still doesn't quite feel right and, or they know it can be better. And that drive to get better, I think, is so— in my mind, I feel like I can tell the difference as an audience member. And I'm not throwing Type A under the bus, but because in some ways I sort of envy their simplicity on it. It's like, oh, you know, done and here I go. But for the rest of us, because I feel like our relationship to the content changes as we change, that the world The context in which we speak, of course, changes. And so it's finding that balance to be able to master what it is that you have to say and your unique approach and what it is that you bring and kind of the core pieces and letting it be loose enough, knowing that stuff so well that you can be loose enough to bring all those other pieces into it in the moment, which is, I think, the challenge. And yeah, so how have you found peace with that for those people, right, who are Type B and they're still at it and go, go, go, go? Like, how do you, how do you find like—

and not drive yourself insane?

Yeah, there's, um, yeah, I get to a point where I say to myself, like, this is the, this is the best this is the best version this one's going to get to right now. And then what I'll do is I'll tend to abandon it and then start working on another version. And rather than, you know, and then that one kind of exists as kind of a separate talk. Like, so when people, you know, I've given them my background with TEDxCambridge, you know, I have a talk that's very rooted in lessons from TEDx. And, you know, that's kind of it. And baked into that now are older ways I describe things. And if I stay away from it long enough, then what will happen is if somebody goes back and asks for that talk, then I can't resist the urge to actually go back and improve the way, you know, I had— because I have found new and better ways to describe certain things. And so then I'll be like, oh, I just, I have to go back and fix that. Because, you know, it materially affects my ability to feel total material if I'm in the middle of going, this isn't, uh, this is the old way, I don't like this way anymore, like this is not, I know this isn't the better, the best way to do it. So basically I try to just as, as, as softly as I can retire older versions of things. Um, and for me it's easier, you know, some people are modular in what they can swap in and swap out. For me it's less that, like I tend to rearrange, um It needs to feel like a new talk to me, even if the core concepts don't ultimately change that much. But I start to play around with format and stories and level of interactivity and different illustrations. All of those things start to go back and forth. And honestly, the biggest piece comes from it's better when I feel comfortable with it. And so, flat out, it's better when I feel comfortable with it. And, you know, I spent a lot of time over the last year and a half really investing, because speaking did become like a specific income stream. I spent a lot of time investing in that. And, you know, I'm definitely, you may have gathered this by now, I'm definitely like somebody who researches and pulls in a bunch of information to kind of figure out what, fits best. I kind of, I try on a lot of stuff mentally and see what fits and what doesn't. And then the stuff that I like, I tailor to myself and the stuff that I don't, I kind of keep in the closet because just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean it's not gonna work for a client.

Right, right.

And so, you know, I think that's really important too. So you just talked, you talked about the people come to you, people wanna keep working. That's definitely, I'm definitely for those people as well. You know, I'm about helping make people's ideas irresistible. And it's funny, I was working with someone who was helping with positioning and some of the pushback you got from people were like, well, that implies that my ideas aren't irresistible already. And I'm like, and I'm fine with that feedback because that means that's not my person. Like, I want someone who has a sense that there's some gap between where it is right now and where it could be. And if you don't like that, then it's like, you know, I'm not offended. I'm just like, well, then you're not for me.

Great for you.

But the thing that I've learned, and I learned this particular lesson in a pretty unexpected place, and that was the 13 years I spent moonlighting as a Weight Watchers leader, is that you can't, there can't be one way. There can't be one way. And I'm not a good consultant or coach to my clients, no matter what the topic is, whether it's a book or a speech or their marketing platform or whatever. If I'm like, well, there's only one way to do it. And there is one set of things that I am immovable on. And those are the things that I have learned after, you know, with the 25 years that I've been working and doing this kind of work that I know need to be in any message. But what I'm always doing is figuring out what are all the varieties from which, with which we can put we can put that together. I mean, you can, you can think about it in the context of, you know, the 7 basic plots and look at how many different stories are told on that. You can look at the fact that every single one of us, by and large, has exactly the same set of bones inside us, and yet think about how differently we, we, we, we move and look and all of that. Um, and to me, that's the thing. So there, one of the ways that, that for me, I've made peace with it and been able to, I think, help other people make peace with it is to say, listen, the only things that don't, that really can't change, the only real things that you have to be sure of are these things. And after that, everything else can be, we can play. And I think I really discovered after this year and a half of investing in thinking about just me and my content and what worked well for me, was that I needed that flexibility in the moment. And now let me be clear, I never wing it. I never—

Right.

I never go on stage not precisely sure what I'm trying to say and what order I'm going to get there, the concepts I need to get across, and the best ways that I know how to do that and how to say that. I always have that in my toolkit. But the more that I can be interactive with the audience and have it be more of a conversation so that in the moment I can be tailoring certain things so that I maybe I thought I was going to use Example A, but given what I'm hearing, Example B is actually much stronger here. Example B is just as well practiced and just as well rehearsed, but in the moment, that's the one that feels more comfortable. Then I feel more comfortable and I have more fun. And if I have fun, then the audience has fun. And fun was definitely lacking from my talks the last couple of years when I was trying on all these other styles. And not because the people I was working with weren't fun and weren't good. It's just that it was definitely an example where I ran up against the— I think I presented a You know, suddenly I was a screw shaped a certain way that they didn't have a tool for it. And then I realized that, wait a minute, I actually had the tool for it because the more that I started to go back to when I felt like I was at my best on stage, in front of people, able to get points across, able to get people to really change, and I mean permanently, how they're thinking about stuff, it was Weight Watchers. So I was like, so what did I do there? I was like, well, I was having a heck of a lot more fun. So that's what I've been trying to do and rebuild into it is those elements that made me both more comfortable and more effective.

Okay. So you're talking about this nexus of a few really powerful things, right?

Mm-hmm.

Crafting an irresistible message that feels authentic to you, right, that— busting through some things that were holding you back, like really kind of figuring that puzzle out. Can you talk a little bit about that nexus and what are the key pieces? So you said something really intriguing. You were like, "There are a few key ingredients that are essential," and then you didn't share the key ingredients. So I'm like, "Oh, I gotta have to come back to that." Well, one of them is mystery and suspense.

Woo! Woo! Well, you know, so here's the thing. I mean, and this is, it's been fun actually lately. I mean, 'cause I've been, you know, I feel like my entire career has been focusing, focusing, focusing, focusing, focusing, focusing. I don't mean just speaking, but like the things that I do have just been this continual narrowing into the things that I love and I feel like I'm good at and I'm most curious about. And for all sorts of reasons, you know, Weight Watchers is one of many, I have always been really fascinated by how do people decide to do things? Yeah. And why do certain decisions stick and certain decisions not? And why do some messages work and some messages don't? And why do some speakers work for some people and don't work for others? Why do their styles work and others don't? Why, You know, so all of this, I mean, cause I was looking at it through the lens of a marketer. I was looking at it through the lens of a Weight Watcher leader, you know, helping people to think differently about themselves and their weight and how they're eating and all of that. I was looking at it through the lens of a TEDx producer where I'm trying to figure out how do we take, in a lot of cases, somebody's life's work and communicate the core of that idea in somewhere between 3 and 18 minutes. I was also looking at it through the lens of a person that, you know, I've, there's been a number of big changes that I've made in my life that, you know, as I've learned over time are unusual for people to have made them and made them successfully. I lost 50 pounds 20 years, like 19 years ago. Next year is the 20-year anniversary. Wow. I had a panic disorder for 17 years, but I haven't had a panic attack in 10. And I don't take medication and I don't go to a therapist anymore. Like, you know, I ran, 2 marathons. Like, there's just been a, you know, I started my own business. So there's a lot of stuff that, um, you know, at the time didn't feel like a big deal. And then when I tell people about it, they're like, you did wait, what? And, and, and I'm like, oh, maybe I should figure this piece out because it feels like there's a thing that I figured out that, that if I were to figure out and reverse engineer what I did, maybe I can help other people do it. And because they seem to do it across all these different areas, I was like, well, it can't be exclusive to weight loss or running or, you know, mental health or marketing or whatever. I was like, there has to be something else. And I was like, well, I think it's about how do we think about things? Because I believe to my core that we create the world we think we see. So Which means, of course, if you can change not what people see but how people see, then you change everything. Because you can change how people see, you know. So these are lessons I started to learn at Weight Watchers, and then I would take those lessons and I would apply them to marketing. I was like, well, it worked here, and if that's a— if it works for one person, well, shouldn't it work for a group of people? Because a group of people is just a group of individuals. So here are certain things that I, you know, I figured out pretty quickly what didn't work. What didn't work is just telling people the answer. Now, sometimes that works if it's a super easy thing, but most of the time, if there's something that you're trying to do and people have a problem that they're trying to solve, they've probably been told that answer already. Yeah, right. I mean, think about people who've tried to lose weight or getting, you know, like, everybody knows, like, if I ask you, how do you lose weight, you're going to say some combination of let's move more. Yeah, we know the answer. So just telling people the answer is clearly not enough. And so then I was like, okay, well, what are the other elements then? So if it's not the answer, if you can't just give people the answer, what can you do? And by the way, you can see this as speakers too. Like, you know, when a speaker just tells you what they want you to do right out front.

Yeah.

Like, well, now you as the audience, now you're in a position of having to— now you're like, well, prove it, right?

You know, it comes to this like defensive Antagonistic experience.

Just from the get-go, right? So I was like, well, that's no fun. I don't like to be on the defensive, so I need to figure something else out. And then I was like, okay, well, what are the other things that we can deal with? And I was like, okay, I started to realize there are certain other things that weren't likely to move quickly. And if there's a through line, you know, of many through lines, but one of the through lines in all my work is how do I get this to happen quickly? How do I get a change, a permanent change to happen quickly? And because, you know, with Weight Watchers, I had 30 minutes. With TED, you know, TED and TED Style Talks, we've got 3 to 18, you know. With my kids, I've got like 20 seconds, you know. It's like, well, how do you get this to happen? You know, as a speaker, maybe you have 45 or 60, but still, you don't have a lot of time. Right. So another thing that didn't, that wasn't going to move quickly was what people want. You know, so so you're not going to suddenly get somebody to want something they don't want, right? Which is why so much pushy sales doesn't work because you're like, mm, and you start to engage all sorts of psychological biases. You know, you tell somebody to do something, they're like, well, no, even if they were thinking about doing it, just the fact you told them to do it will make them not want to do it. But the reverse is also true. So if you think about something that you love, I mean, you love, love, love, love, love, like, you know, food. You know, for me, it was like ice cream. I could power through a pint of ice cream in seconds. Um, and I'm never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever gonna stop loving that. Yeah. Or certainly not gonna stop it like that.

Yeah.

Like, it's not gonna happen over time. So I can't tell someone, well, don't want that, want this instead. That's not gonna work. Yeah. And I learned that. That was the, you know, that was, that was such an aha for me at Weight Watchers for my members, was to say, was to really with my groups, just to say, can we just set willpower aside? Because willpower is essentially not want power. You're asking yourself to not want a thing that you want or to want a thing that you don't want. And both of them are just patently ridiculous if you think about it. So can we just set that aside? So if it's not the goal that somebody has, what else do we have? Well, all right, well, beliefs, you know, because so much of our actions are driven by our beliefs. So what can we do to change people's beliefs? And it's just like, but you can't, can you change people's beliefs over time? Yes, but you don't have time if you're trying to like make an elevator pitch or you're trying to, you know, get your kid to stop hitting his brother or whatever. Like you don't have time. Yeah. And so beliefs weren't really a thing that you could change quickly either because if somebody believed a certain thing to be true, I couldn't say to them, well, don't believe that.

Right. Uh-uh.

Because, you know, that doesn't happen either, just like you're not going to— So I was like, "Well, okay. What else is there?" And it came back to how you see the world. What do the goals and those beliefs, what are they creating? Well, they're creating a perspective on the world. Okay. So now I've got some elements I can start to work with. So if I can figure out how they're currently looking at the world, given what their goals and beliefs are, how can I, without changing their goals or beliefs, give them an expanded perspective on that? How can I complete a picture that is currently incomplete? So it's, you know, it's classic forest for the trees model, right? So it's— the thing is, based on somebody's goals and beliefs, you know, they're going to focus on a thing. So I, you know, I'm going to use a Weight Watchers example here just because it's super simple. But, you know, somebody really wants to lose weight and they do if they're at Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers self-selects because there's lots of ways. So, you know, the fact that you're going to come in and step on a scale and meet with a bunch of people every week, you know, like you were self-selecting with like you're willing to do this and you want to do this. Now there's a whole bunch of beliefs that can be in play. But one that I saw over and over again were people who believed to their core that they were just what they call themselves, night eaters or night snackers. You know, they're just like, "Well, that's just when I eat is at night. I have no problem during the morning, during lunch, great, but it's like after a long day, I'm stressed and I'm tired. I just, I don't know what to do." And so they would come to me so frustrated because they would think that they would have to change something. Did that mean they have to give up their goal? Does that mean it was impossible for them to lose weight? Because the way Weight Watchers works still is that food's assigned a numerical value. It's called points. You get a certain number of points in a day. Every food that you eat has a point value that subtracts over the course of the day. Ideally, when your day ends, the points are over, and that's good. Like, you know, somewhat good if you have some left over, and maybe not as good if you have gone negative. But so these people would come and they'd be so frustrated because they'd say, I'm out of points. Like, I, you know, do I have to, you know, do I have to change myself? Like, how do I, how do I not get stressed at night? Was one question. How do I do, do I really have to just, am I doomed to not lose weight? You know, or they'd say, or is it just that the program doesn't work for me? And this is where that lesson I was talking about before comes in. I was like, all right, it's my job not to keep them in the program. I would actively tell people to to say, listen, if you're not ready to do this right now, don't waste your money. Like, don't. Like, fine. Like, come back when you want to. Yeah. But what I said to them was, okay, so the issue is that the points are running out at night. You don't have points when you most need points. So if we know we can't change what they want, we know we can't change what they believe, and, and what they're looking at, what they're frustrated with is how the points are allotted. You know, start thinking to yourself, well, what, what, what are some of the options now available to that person that based on how they're currently looking at it, they may not be seeing? You know, and you might be thinking yourself, well, do the points have to start in the morning? And well, that's what I started to say. I was just like, no, there's nothing ever written anywhere that says the points have to start in the morning. So what I said to them was just simple thing. It's like the the incomplete perspective was that the points, like a day, started in the morning.

Right.

And so I was like, but a day can start whenever you need the day to start.

Right.

So start your points at night. And that little piece is, that kind of locked in the last of the elements that I started to look at. And so here's what they are. We know as speakers, And as business owners and entrepreneurs, you started your business, you talk about what you talk about because there was something that you wanted to be different in the world. Yeah. So that's going to be actually the fourth piece of what I'm talking about. And I refer to that as the change. So there needs to be a thing that is the result of the other three things that we're talking about. But we already talked about the other three. But, and this is the order that I suggest people find them in. The first one is, that thing that people want, that goal. And it has to be a thing that they know they want, not the thing that you want for them.

Right.

Right. So, you know, I, I need to walk in saying, I know people want to make their idea irresistible, not necessarily they're walking in looking for, you know, what are these conditions that create that? They don't know that they want that. They're just, they know they want their their speech to, or their talk to work better than it does. Yeah. So that's the first thing, the goal. So we've got, now we've got number 1 and number 4. Now you would think, well, maybe we have to find the belief next, but not quite actually. What we need to find next is the second thing. And that's that perspective thing that I was talking about. So I call that the problem and that's the real problem. And that's, you know, and so we have with the goal, we have an irresistible outcome. Something that people aren't going to readily un-want. You put it to them and say, hey, you know, if I keep talking and you could get that thing, you would want that thing? Yes. You're not going to suddenly un-want it. So that's the first thing. The second thing with the problem, that's where you're showing them this incomplete perspective. You're showing them that based on what they've been doing, it makes sense how they're looking at the world. So they're not wrong. That's important. And that's particularly important to me, that the audience is not wrong. It's just that they're But the way they've been looking at it, you know, that perspective that they're taking on it is actually blinding them to where the actual answer may lie. So forest trees, you've been looking at the forest, at the trees, you're missing that the answer is actually out here in the forest. You're looking at just the points as being a day and not actually what that day is meant to accomplish. So that's the second piece. So goal, irresistible outcome, problem, incomplete perspective. Then you find that belief. And that's that third thing. And I call that, I call it the idea. It's the simplest way to refer to it. To continue with the I words, it's an incontrovertible truth. It's this neutral statement that explains why the problem is such a problem, but also explains why the change, remember that fourth thing, is the right one. And it should be something that, similar to the goal, people aren't going to quickly unbelieve. You know, like I was working with a client where, you know, the, the, you know, the core belief, it was like success is an action, is an action, right? Uh, well, can you— can't really argue with that, right? And given what she'd set up, when success is an action, it would make it impossible to ignore that problem of perspective.

Right.

So that's why you find it third, because you have to find the thing that makes the problem of perspective impossible to ignore. But then it should also, as I said, explain that change. So let me give like an example from one of my TEDx talks. So there's a woman who It's on TED.com. It's called "The Human Insights Missing from Big Data." Tricia Wang is her title. So the goal, you know, this talk was for business decision makers. It was for business people in the audience, and particularly business decision makers who wanted to reduce risk but were struggling with why big data wasn't delivering for them. And so the goal, as we established for her, was that that we all want to reduce risk in business. Like, that's the goal. And so you could see they're not going to un-want that. They're not going to be like, no, let's make it riskier. Um, and then the problem perspective that she brought into play, because she knew these people were already paying attention to big data, was that big data doesn't just create more knowledge, it creates more unknowns. So it was like, so you're right that, you know, pursuing big data was great, but one of the reasons why you've been trouble having— getting that goal is because there's unknowns being introduced. So that meant we needed to have to introduce this idea, this kind of truth that was, that she needed to make the case for, which she did successfully, which is that the greatest risk lies in the unknown. Again, you can't really argue with it, but all of a sudden, if you've, you know, she's successfully introduced the fact that big data also creates more unknowns and biggest risk comes from when you don't know what is coming. Now you've got people who are like, oh crap, I can't just look at big data the same way anymore. Which is where her change came in, which was we need to add human insights to big data. So she had a thing that she called thick data. So that was, you know, and that was— that's the, the fifth component, which is the action. So nice.

Cool. Yeah, I, uh, I love that flow, and it's such a clear way to make sure for somebody to like self-assess their message. Am I doing this? Am I doing this? Am I doing this? Am I doing this? Because you're really walking your audience to the place where they're like, ah, okay, I'm with you. Let's go.

Exactly. And that's the key. And that's the key to near instantaneous, or at least raising the probability of near instantaneous permanent changes in thinking. Because they've come to it themselves. You haven't told them what to do. You haven't made them agree to it. You have created the conditions of agreement.

Nice.

You have created a, you know, without being forceful or manipulative, by simply showing them the world, you know, showing them how you see. That's it. That's what you're doing. You're not telling them what to do. You're showing them how you see. By showing them how you see, you're ideally creating a tension in how they see the world that makes them want themselves to convert to a different way of thinking. And that's why establishing, you know, for, you know, I'm really clear that there's both the change, which is the fourth thing, and I mentioned it quickly, and then there's the actions, which is the fifth kind of component. Not every talk, not every message needs to have that fifth component, those actions. But what we normally do actually is we skip the change part. We give people, well, here are the three steps to accomplishing, I don't know, engagement, employee engagement in the workplace, but we forget to tell people what those 3 things mean. What do they roll up to? What's the shift in thinking that happens? And when you don't give people that, if the actions don't actually work for them, well, then they're going to reject the whole message.

Right.

What this also means for us as speakers is sometimes we have to reduce our expectation of the level of change we can create in any particular instance.

Yeah. So, right, taking— instead of seeing the end goal and saying— and putting that out to them, just saying, okay, in order to get you there, we're gonna have to zig over here first, right?

Yeah. And, and that's the thing, because ideas that we think we find them, right? We have these, you know, the, the classic vision is, you know, the apple falls on Newton's head and he's like, "Oh, gravity," or like Archimedes in the bathtub is like, "Eureka!" Yeah. And we forget that, or we don't fully realize that ideas aren't found, they're built. They are built piece by piece over time with our experience. And yet we can't, you know, when we have found a way to solve something, you know, when we have found a way to slay a particular monster, You know, we, we, there's all those monsters are out there and they're urgent and we don't want anyone else to be killed by those monsters in the meantime. So we're just like, here, take the sword, go do it. But like, you know why that matters, but they actually have to come to that decision and that realization themselves. So that's why, you know, that's what I say. So, you know, a talk, these are those fundamental elements, like any message that has those elements in it, automatically is more likely to get someone to think about something differently.

I love it.

And that means that they're likely to do something different. And that to me is really— that's— it doesn't matter.

It's all about—

yeah, exactly. Like, you think otherwise, what are we doing?

What are we doing? Yes, wasting our breath. Yeah, and all of our time and energy. Okay, well, Tamsen, before we go, I want to do very quickly what I call a This Moved Me moment. Okay, sharing something that has moved you recently to keep us as speakers inspired and inspiring. So I'm gonna start. Uh, so I have fallen absolutely in love with the show Queer Eye for the Straight Guy again.

Awesome, love it.

Yeah, right. I remember it. I mean, I was young when it came out. I don't even know how many years ago, but But I remember it and I, I thought it was delightful then too. But there is something about these men and their— how they are just so bravely walking into some really hard conversations. Have you seen it?

I have, yes. Yeah, yeah, because it's the same.

Like, I remember the original one and I was like, oh, I know, I'm so excited. But I didn't— before I found it delightful and funny, I found— I find the show like the most beautiful thing on television right now. I cry every episode. It just— the, the, the show between the police officer and the African-American man.

I haven't seen that one yet. Oh, okay.

I'm not gonna— I'm not gonna spoil it. It's just, it's such a beautiful— and there's— I can think of several examples throughout the series because I watched it all in like 2 days. You're like, "Bing!" I just went for it. I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to keep on the treadmill for another show because I could use another 45 minutes of walking. Sure, no problem." Sure, yeah. Oh, but it's just beautiful and awesome. So that's my This Movie Moment.

Everybody go watch Queer Eye!

Woo!

You know, and mine, you know, it was just one of those kind of like incidental things that I'd seen in my Facebook feeling. Yeah, it's probably fairly contextual, but it was actually— it was a, it was a clip of Jack Black, uh, singing the national anthem. Yes, at the WNBA.

So good.

And I was like, uh, you know, and it, and it moved me because maybe in contrast to how inauthentic and stylized Fergie's singing of the anthem was at, uh, at the, at the, uh, the, um All-Star Game? Is that what it's called in basketball? I don't know, it's sports ball, you know, the—

not All-Star. Um, I almost said Stanley Cup. That's wrong. I know what you mean.

You're like, nope, nope, that's the flat sports ball. That's the— yeah, that's, that's a different thing. That's what's wrong. Yeah, no, and I'm, and I'm joking because I'm a rabid baseball fan, so I, I do know my sports. Um, but you know what I loved about it was that it was It was so true to him and to the environment and to the material. And that's where people screw up. I think when the most wonderful speakers, you can talk about it from a congruence or integrity. I think people use authenticity not quite. I think they mean this when they say it, but what we're really talking about is there's just no gap. Between you and what you're talking about, between the appropriateness of what you're talking about and the situation you're in, and then the style of how you were delivering it to the people that you're delivering it. And I think it's why Fergie's didn't work, because she was doing a style that was not her style. It was not appropriate to the song, and it was not appropriate, you know, that style with that song was not appropriate for that situation. And so you take those three things together and it just doesn't work. But then you've got Jack Black, who is still singing. I mean, he's a wonderful singer.

He's got pipes.

He's just—

pipes.

But he sang it straight, and he sang it straight and true, and in a way that clearly, it really clearly meant something to him. Yeah. You know, to be there singing that for that occasion, like, it just, it fit. And I think that, you know, for me, yes, it moved me, but there was also, it's just a great example of that there are these multiple pieces that have to be in place and all of them have to be in tune with each other.

Yeah.

In order for it to really work. But that's— Jack Black moved me. I didn't think I'd ever say that.

Right? I mean, I find Jack Black absolutely hilarious and delightful, but I had the same reaction watching that.

I was like, wow.

Not only was it really well done.

Yeah.

You know, he was— he can be such a obviously a goofball. Yeah, you know, everything's a parody, or he's just being super goofy. But this was— it's like he had so much respect for what was happening, and you could just sense his pride.

Yeah, he was just— yeah, I was like, go Jack Black! Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I just think there's, you know, I— we can't— it's one piece of that the three-way equation alone is not enough. You as a speaker are not enough. The material alone is not enough. And the audience is not enough. You know, and even two of those three, if you get two out of the three connecting well, great. But you are going to be just irresistible on stage when you get all three of those working. That what you say is true to who you are and appropriate for who you're talking to, when how you say it is true to you and the people that you're talking to. Like when all of those things are working together, when they're consonant, when they're in tune, like that's, that's how you move people. I believe that.

Love it. On that note, what a great note to end on. Tamsen, thank you for giving so much of your time here today. It was so great to meet you.

Oh, lovely to meet you. It's fun.

It's good. Yeah, I have a lot of fun too. I'm gonna tell you, this is my favorite thing.

Hey Movers, so glad that you could join me today here on the show. This moved me. Hope that something in the episode today moved you. I wrote down tons of great quotes. So many great quotes from this episode. Oh my gosh, here were some of them if you didn't catch these. She said, "We create the world we think we see, so if we can change how people see, you can change everything." And then this one, I love this one: "Ideas aren't found, they're built." And she goes on to talk about how they are built from our experiences. Which is so true. And then how do we walk our audience to the same place that we are? Like, if they haven't shared those same experiences, then we have to walk them to that place. Um, so I just thought there was so much great stuff in here. Tamsen, thanks so much for joining me on the show, and thanks to all of you for joining me on this journey. And I hope that you are getting some good stuff out of these brilliant people. That I just get to chat with. Lucky me.

I love it.

Great interview episode today. We've got more coming down the pipeline, so be on the lookout in the next few weeks. And an update, you guys, I'm so excited about this new website that is coming. Uh, T-minus, I'm thinking 3 weeks. Uh, I think I said 3 weeks last week, but I am gonna say 3 weeks again this week. Because big stuff is coming and I want to make sure I get it right. But not perfect. I'm not going for perfect. I'm just going for, you know, mostly done. But I'm super pumped and there is gonna be, as we've talked about last week, Movers U.

That's what I'm calling it.

It's gonna be Movers University where you can come and get some more hands-on, tangible how-to so that you can really do the work of creating a talk that will move this world. So there's going to be some online courses. I'm dripping them out. I want to get your feedback and make sure that the content is what you're looking for. So if, if you are intrigued by this at all, send me an email, message me on Facebook, Get on my Facebook page, just let's connect, and I'd love to make sure that you for sure get on the waitlist for those courses. And if you want to be a beta tester, definitely reach out and let me know because I've got, I've got a list starting and I'm going to take the first chunk of people who find me. So I, I would love that. All right, so movers, Great work out there. Keep creating talks that will move the world because it's important and we need it. And you belong on that stage. I know you do. Alright, talk to you later. See you next week.