181: Olivia Mitchell: On Getting Over the Fear of Disapproval

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. Episode 181 on getting over the fear of disapproval. And yes, I know you might not approve of this, but you know what? I'm over it. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney, together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun. Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful, that's not a small task.

I love your giggle.

Wow.

Oh my gosh, just waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet.

Hey Movers, it is Sally, and welcome back to another episode of This Move with Me. I'm so excited to share with you another interview today with Olivia Mitchell. Now Olivia is an introvert, and the reason I'm introducing her that way is because that is how and why I found her, because I am an extrovert. I know that might shock you. Surprise, surprise, Sally's an extrovert. But Olivia, was kind of brought to my attention because I was in a workshop and a woman in my workshop basically said to me, like, "You love this because you're an extrovert and I don't like speaking because I'm an introvert." And I just don't buy it. But as an extrovert, I don't have a lot of credibility when I say, "Of course you can do it. Like, that's not, that's not the thing in your way, and we extroverts have our own fears too." But, uh, then I was introduced to Olivia and Olivia speaks to this exact thing. She herself is an introvert and she works with many introverts or people who struggle to bring their voice to the moment in whatever way. And so I wanted to have this conversation. As you guys know, I love these conversations. I love talking about the things that hold us back because in my experience, introvert, extrovert, super experienced, brand new, CEO, you know, you're working in the mailroom, like it doesn't matter. There is something that holds us back from really owning that moment, and it's not that we can't figure it out and get through it, it's that we've got to do a little work in order to be able to really own the moment. And so Olivia and I talk today about what really is behind the fear of speaking, and it turns out it's disapproval. Now, Olivia and I start our conversation talking about this creative energy and space that she discovered when she was recently in a pretty serious accident. And, uh, I think there's a really interesting insight there for all of us that about creativity. So there's so much good stuff in this episode. I'm really excited for you to hear it. And I feel like I should note too that right now I am sitting outside, and it might sound a little bit different today because I think I've mentioned in the past few episodes we're moving. We're staying in St. Paul because I love St. Paul and I love Minnesota. So don't worry, we're staying in— not that anybody's worried about that, but yes, we're staying local. But I'm so excited to be moving. It's going to be a really exciting time. I've got a really cool new space. I'm going to show you guys kind of the, the, the behind the scenes of how I get that space set up. I'm really jazzed about that, but it does mean that my podcast studio is in a box somewhere. And I luckily found my old Yeti microphone from when I first started out podcasting, which is literally, you guys, 3 years ago coming up, which is kind of blowing my mind.

Is it 3 or is it 4? Oh my gosh, I don't even remember.

Whatever. It's been a long time and my brain's fried. So, but I found my old Yeti mic and I— it sounds way better than my Apple headset that was that like side microphone. It just, it hasn't been sounding good and you guys have been dealing with it and being really kind about it, but also kind of annoying. So I'm trying to up the game while still being realistic about what is possible when your house is half packed up and you're going from thing to thing.

So here we are.

But I'm sitting out on my deck right now, so if you're hearing— can you hear like somebody's mowing their lawn and my chair is squeaky and the birds are chirping and it is a gorgeous day. It's gorgeous, Minnesota. I love you even when you torture me for like 5 months. Well, not that long because I like winter for 3 months, but those last 2? Mm-mm. But here we are. This makes it all worth it. You ask anybody, ask any Minnesotan about summer and they'll tell you, this is why we're here. It's so beautiful. All right, you guys, let's jump into the episode. Here she is, Olivia Mitchell.

Sounds like the time that you were sort of forced to take has been great for your business. Is that right?

Yeah, yeah. No, I've been really reflecting on this. I had an amazing creative time and I think it was partly no pressure to achieve anything. Yeah. You know, there I am in bed, nobody expects anything from me. So that was one thing that I could just take my time. And the other thing is I had nothing else to do. So the normal household admin, yeah, cooking, cleaning, nah, nah, nah, none of that. So I actually had amazing freedom and to just think. And it's interesting because right now I'm relaunching my program. So my program is Journey to Confidence, which is the one that I created. And this week is the last week. I am relaunching it. It will be in about 3 to 4 weeks, and I'm going to be making tweaks to it. And I realized that I was feeling quite pressured and, you know, trying to stick to a timetable. And I thought, whoa, this is feeling different. Yeah. Than it did 3 months ago. And I realized I just need to take the pressure off and just let myself kind of flow into this and just sit there with a notebook thinking about how I'd like to change things. Yeah. Rather than, you know, always getting straight into making tweaks to the sales page and just getting stuck with how to do that. Oh, yes.

It's resonating.

It's all resonating.

Yeah.

The creativity does not happen on demand and it's this antithetical thing where the more you want something to happen, the less it's going to flow from you.

Yeah.

Oh, that really messes with people, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's wonderful having had that experience because now I can go, okay, I actually need to recreate that. Yeah.

It sounds great. I mean, I'm sorry that it happened and I'm sorry it took this accident for you to really find the juju.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, I'd heard it before my accident, you know, people who have cancer diagnoses or other terrible things happen to them can end up being some of the best things in their life.

Yeah.

Well, it resets your life.

Hmm.

Hard reboot.

A hard reboot. You know, where we finally, we have to force sometimes the change that we sort of, we see, we're like, I need to do this, this would be great, I know that I need to push myself here, but it— like, we are creatures of habit. We are creatures of bad habits. And so shifting mindset and really making some of those big changes, it doesn't happen easily.

Yeah.

And so, like, what a gift from that. If something had to come from this, you know, like, what a gift to have that time and space and just create.

Yeah, thank you.

My cat just walked in the room. Can you see her?

I can't hear her.

She's great. But she, just like my dog, whenever I was recording something, my dog wanted in. My dog was like, hey, I'm here, I'm here. And it's so funny, this cat's the same thing. She's really independent, and then I start recording something and she's like, hey, what you doing? How's it going? Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Well, let's jump right Olivia, because I am really excited to talk with you about your particular take. So part of— I found you online. I think somebody actually recommended that I check out your stuff, right? Because you are an introvert, and, uh, I know and love introverts. I'm married to an introvert. My daughter is a pretty intense introvert, and I keep running across when I do workshops with people, people who will say to me, because I'm not an introvert and it's pretty obvious that I'm not an introvert, they will say to me, "Well, you like speaking because you are an extrovert, and introverts, we don't do this." Yeah. And I don't believe that. No, no.

Right?

But I have a hard time convincing them because I'm such an extrovert. So let me hear from you, like, as an introvert, how did you get into this space right now where you are owning that and coaching other people out of their shells? Tell me about this.

Yeah, so I think of myself as an accidental speaker. So I am married to an extrovert.

Okay, that's usually how it works, right?

Yeah, let's say I I guess I have a theory around that. So Tony is the extrovert, that's my husband, and he's the one who started our training business.

Okay.

So he started it. While he started the business, I was busy earning a salary so he could start the business. Then the business started earning enough money that I could leave my job. I was actually intending to write a book when I left my job. But I got pulled into the business from the admin side, like doing backend work. And then I thought, "Oh well, I'll go along to a few training sessions and just sit in at the back and help out." Yeah. And after doing that a few times, I got a bit bored and thought, "Actually, I could do what he's doing." And so I started taking over a few sessions. Hmm. And then, which got to the stage where I was just running the whole thing. And what I found was that my strength or the advantage that I had was that the people on our training courses could relate to me in a way they couldn't quite relate to Tony. And so they saw that I was an introvert and they could relate to my story and the way that I was. And that was a great strength. But I think the major issue is that as introverts, there are two things. We need a little more time to think. We need more time to process and think about what we want to say. And we need more downtime. I think those are, those are the two things that we need to be aware of. But apart from that, we can be just as good in front of people and on stage as extroverts. And there are many famous speakers, Brené Brown, Simon Sinek, Susan Cain, fantastic speakers that are introverts. So I think there is, there is no reason why introverts can't do it.

Totally. I think it's just another thing that people put in front of themselves as a barrier that's unnecessary based on a myth I mean, there's so much that people have created that gets in their way.

Yeah.

That I feel like as a coach, I spend, and I'm sure you'd agree with this, I spend so much time dismantling people's myths.

Yes, absolutely.

So what are some of the big myths that you are helping your speakers dismantle so that they can really step forward?

Yeah, I would say the main one is that it is all about them and how they perform. So most people put so many demands on themselves when they are in front of a group. So much so that I say you have a little voice in your head that is called the demander that is telling you, you must be clear and understandable. You must be engaging. 'You must not show any signs of nerves.' It's kind of talking away to them, saying all these things that they must be, and it puts so much pressure on them and makes them even more nervous than they already are.

Right.

So it really amps up that nervousness.

Right.

So a big thing that I do is help people dismantle that demander voice.

I love that, the demander. That's what it is. It's like this angry little—

Yeah.

I mean, like, not good enough, not good enough.

Yeah, yeah. And there are two ways that I do that. First of all, I help people identify the particular demand that they have. So let's say it might be, I must be engaging. I'll point out the must in there, which is the demanding part of it, and say, I can understand that you want to be engaging, but it's not that you must be engaging.

Right.

A must is at the level of I must have water, I must have food. If you don't get one of those, yes, you're going to die over a period of time. It's a must. It really is a demand that we have. As a human. And as a result, when we have a must, it triggers the fight or flight response.

Right, right.

So to say to yourself, I must be engaging, basically triggers your fight or flight response.

Right.

So I say to them, what we want to do is to downgrade that must to simply a preference or a desire. Because it's totally reasonable. Yes, of course you want to be engaging. But even if there are times when some of your audience maybe don't look that engaged, first of all, it doesn't mean that they aren't. And also, it's not a disaster. You're going to survive. And you will live through this. So it's not a must.

Right. Well, that's interesting.

Yeah. Because—

I, I like phrasing it and framing it as a must because that does open up the door for— of course, there's all kinds of things we want to be as speakers. We want to be funny, we want to be memorable, we want, you know, to be polished, we want all these things. And I think the reality is there's so much room for all kinds of different people to show up and bring who they are. And it can look so many different ways. And I think most people have such a narrow view of what a speaker is, what a speaker could be or should be. It's like, oh, that word should, must. You just got to get rid of them.

Yeah. Should and have to are other red flags in terms of you're using those words. That's the demander.

That's the demander.

They have to. They are all the demander voice.

So do you help them replace? Do you help your speakers replace that voice? Like, what are the words that you put in their head instead of, I must be engaging?

So the replacement voice is the goal setter voice. And so the goal setter has goals rather than demands for you. Nice. So, so here it's just downgrading the must to a goal. So taking the must of I must be engaging, then it becomes my goal is to be engaging.

Hmm.

However, so much better already, isn't it?

So much better. Yeah.

Yeah.

It allows for the fact, you know, sometimes you're going to get there. Sometimes you're not.

Right.

And there's another distinction here that I add in, which some people find really helpful, which is the distinction between being attached to something and being committed to it.

Mm.

Talk about that. So attachment, when we're demanding something, we're attached. It's like, if I don't get this, It's going to be a terrible thing. I mean, for me as a trainer and a coach, what I can be attached to is my students getting it. You know, I want them, let's say I'm running a 1-day course or a 2-day course, I want my students to get it before the end of the course. It's like, oh, you know, and if I, and in the past, if I felt like I hadn't made an impact in that time I had with them, I would be I'd be more than disappointed. I would feel like I had failed. Yeah. I was attached to the outcome. What's much more useful is to be committed to the outcome. So I'm still going to try my hardest. I'm going to do my best. This is what I want. It's my goal that my students get it within the 1 day or the 2 days. Right. But I know that I may not get it in that timeframe.

Yeah. So what I'm hearing in this, and, and the language that, that I use, is about how destructive perfectionism can be in any creative pursuit. But I feel like especially the pursuit of speaking, because it's such a vulnerable thing. And so what we are saying to ourselves and, and how we we pull ourselves into that moment and show up, determines so much about how it goes. It ends up having so little to do with your perfectly written talk.

It's no.

How can you show up and kind of accept what is in the moment? It's a trick.

Yes, yeah. So I think the distinction between like the whole demander goal setter thing or the commitment attachment thing, kind of two different ways of saying the same thing.

Yeah.

Letting go of perfectionism. If somebody is a perfectionist, which many of us are, public speaking amplifies perfectionism. Oh, yeah. It's like a bomb on it.

Yeah.

It really— so that's the big, it's a big deal. The other thing that I help my students with is to shift from making it all about them. So the, I must do all of this, I must be engaging, I must be funny, I must tell great stories, to how are you going to serve the audience? And that it's not actually about you and how you perform. It's actually about What are the needs of the audience here and how can you meet them and how can your presentation, your talk, how can it serve them and add value to them? Right. And if people can make that shift, that can make an incredible difference.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's, we have to dial down. It's this funny balance. Dial down our own importance enough to be of service. Now, I want to offer not a challenge on that because I 100% agree with you. But how many times are you working with people who the thing that's getting in their way is this other belief, which is, "Oh, who am I to get there?" Right. Like, "I don't have anything to offer. I'm an introvert. I'm a sideline person. I'm in the background making the magic work." No, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, no, you too. What do you say?

Interestingly, that doesn't come up in my work. And I, so in the past, I worked in corporates and government agencies running courses. And of course there, sometimes people wanted to come along, but it was part of their role. It was part of their job. They understood that presenting was important. Sometimes they'd been sent, and then they were less happy about being there. But over the time, you know, they kind of realized, yeah, being able to present and communicate to groups is an important skill. Yeah. And I can see how this is going to help me. Yeah. So that didn't come up there. Now I'm working more with individuals who come to me, and I'm working with them online over a period of time. But they come to me because they have something to say.

Yeah, yeah.

And they have a reason they want to get it out. So that doesn't come up with my clients so much. They already come to me with something to say. What I do help them do, because I think this is so important, is I help them really uncover what their big why is. Why is it that you want to get out there and share your ideas? And I really help them pinpoint that because I think if you've got a block around doing something, you need to have a really big reason why.

So how does that connect in? I mean, I think I know, but I'd love to hear you articulate why, why, the why.

Yeah.

Really knowing that, like deeply, clearly articulating that, how does that serve your students and help them put themselves out there?

Yeah, well, so they, they, they come to me because they've got some sort of a block, and mainly the block is fear.

Yeah.

And it takes courage to overcome that. So in order to overcome that, they need a reason which is bigger than that fear, right? Most of us in the world suffer from some degree of fear around public speaking. That's a well-known fact. I want to work with the people who are really ready to get over it. So often they come to me at the level where they are just, they are fed up.

Hmm.

They're really fed up. If you're not yet fed up with your fear and of being held back, then you're not ready yet. Yeah. Yeah. You really need a big reason and you need to be fed up. You need to have been in meetings where you weren't able to get your voice out there and really regretted not being able to say what you wanted to say.

Right.

You need to have seen the opportunities pass you by of where you could have stepped up and where you could have spoken and made a difference.

Yeah. So can you share a little bit more as an introvert, your own transformation. I mean, you kind of made it sound earlier like, yeah, you kind of saw it, we're like, I could do that. But I know that you yourself have, have made that transformation. You've talked about that a lot. So can you share a little bit about that shift for you?

Realizing that I could do something even though I was really nervous.

Yeah.

So I think a, a false dichotomy that we have is that we've got nervousness at this, at one end of the continuum, and we've got confidence at the other end of the continuum. And so you think, and if you set it up like that, then you can't be nervous and confident at the same time.

Right.

But in fact, you can. So what I, what I found is that if I saw my nervousness as a feeling, so I recognize that nervousness that I, you know, I might feel the butterflies or what some people call the hippopotamuses. I mean, for me, dry mouth is what happens. You know, being slightly shaky and hot. If I could recognize, okay, I have these feelings and I also know that just about everybody else has those feelings too when they have to do something big. And having those feelings doesn't mean I can't do it.

Right.

It's not the same as confidence. Confidence is knowing that you can do something. So nervousness is a feeling. Confidence is a belief, right, that you can do a task.

Oh, that is a great distinction. I think that's really powerful because even I've worked with people who have— who do believe, they know, I can do this, I have something to say. Yeah, you know, they know it and they think that because they also feel nervous that means something. Like, oh my God, this means I shouldn't be doing this. Other people make it look so easy, so it must be, you know, and we shut ourselves off or amp them up, amp those opportunities up as these huge things that we can't access when the reality is everybody is actually, you know, some people are feeling it less than other people, but Oh my gosh, in my TEDx talk, I, I have all the reason in the world to be totally confident. And I was, I was like, I know I'm prepared, I'm ready, this is what I do, like, I'm ready. And I was nervous, I was really nervous. And I was like, here we go, this is the way it is.

Yes.

Yeah, it was a great reminder.

Yeah. I think accepting those feelings of nervousness as an absolutely normal, natural part of playing big.

Yeah.

Of putting yourself out there. Of course you feel nervous. And it doesn't mean anything about your confidence or your ability to do the task.

I love that. Nerves are a normal part of playing big. Yeah. You're gonna do big stuff in life. Yeah, you should. In fact, you should be concerned if you aren't a little bit nervous.

And actors and professional entertainers have been telling us this for decades, that nervousness is a natural part of it. And yes, they will get nervous if they're not nervous. Yeah.

And you, you start to just shift what you call it. So I have stopped calling it nervous and started calling it excited. I'm so excited because, because they're so close.

They are. Well, so I absolutely teach this. And of course, it's backed up by scientific experiments. Scientific research has shown that reframing our nervousness as excitement can really make a difference to how well we do.

Yeah.

And physiologically, the sensations that you feel are very similar, right?

Yeah, sweet. It's not just tricking yourself, but it's actually— it, it's just like a, a slight shift in perspective. It's like, no, actually turns out I'm just really excited. Yeah, you know, your body reacts. It's crazy. It's, it's such a fascinating, um, I think, experiment in the human condition speaking, right? Because we, we, people are putting themselves or they are put in, but hopefully they are putting themselves in a position of challenge where they are experiencing fear and where adrenaline is taking over and that, you know, everyone's like, why am I doing this? This is crazy. And then afterwards you're like, that's why I'm doing this. Yes. Because it has a huge potential to impact people, because somebody needed to hear that story, because this work is important, because on and on and on and on.

Yeah.

And it's hard sometimes to see that from the other side. If we can bring that in. Okay, Olivia, what I want to do right now is to share a "this moved me" moment, something that has moved you recently. Maybe it's a talk that you've seen, or, you know, who knows, a movie, a commercial, a song that you heard, and what moved you about it.

Yes. So for me, it is the results in the Irish referendum.

Oh, tell me about this. I'm I'm hardly keeping up with my own country's— Right.

—world.

So tell me about that. So in Ireland, they had what was called the Eighth Amendment that made the life of a woman and the life of a fetus she was carrying equivalent. So this referendum was on the repeal of the Eighth Amendment. From my point of view, there was a hugely successful result in that the 8th Amendment was— there was a vote to repeal the 8th Amendment, which means that a woman's life matters more than the life of her fetus. Oh my gosh, okay. So this is just— it's an amazing thing, thing for women in Ireland. But for me, the two things that really moved me about this were, first of all, is the way that women in Ireland and Irish women in the whole rest of the world, because so many Irish have left Ireland. Yeah. Now, they all came together to make this vote possible. Many, many Irish women went home to vote. They flew from wherever they lived. They went home to vote. Not only that, Irish women with more means paid for Wow. Younger women without the means to fly home, to get home so they could vote. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So it is amazing. Uh, so to me, that is just really wonderful. Um, the second thing about it that really moved, moved me, and this is a wider thing, is anti-abortion and all everything that goes with it was so entrenched in Ireland. Yes. Even 10, 20 years ago was such a part of their way of thinking. And the fact that things have changed so dramatically in a matter of decades, I think gives me hope for the rest of the world and for other countries where ways of thinking seem so entrenched and it seems, how can we change people's minds? Yeah. And the fact that Ireland has changed its mind on something quite so seminal and which was so part of the Irish identity really gives me hope for all of humanity.

I am so fascinated by this. I would love to see how they have evolved that conversation. Yeah. Because it, we seem to be devolving over here in this side of the world. Yeah. And it's become— things are becoming more entrenched and it's so sad and so frustrating because actually there's so much gray on this, on this topic in particular. It's like, oh my gosh, just the way edges are the ones who are creating the narrative around this. And honestly, there's— most people are here in the middle. So like, let's talk about it. And it's really hard to.

Yeah, it takes a powerful story. One of the turning points in Ireland was the story of a married woman who was miscarrying. She went to hospital and they refused— the doctors refused to help them. Things were going wrong. And the doctors refused to help the miscarriage happen because the fetus still had a heartbeat. Gotcha. Oh, and so, and she died. The fetus was going to die anyway, right? She was just carrying because they wouldn't do anything because of the Eighth Amendment. Which said that the fetus's life was just as important as the mother's life. Yeah. So that story, that happening, from what I've read, and of course I don't live in Ireland, I just read, but from what I've read, that was a turning point. And then that story and realizing if we have this kind of law, these are the repercussions, these are the consequences. Right. Yeah. So as speakers, I think the fact that it, that it's that one single story had such an impact, right? I think that's a really relevant thing to note as speakers.

Yeah. Yeah. And when I think about gay rights and how it has just catapulted forward in the last decade, I mean, I, I'm shocked and and so happy about where things are now compared to where they were 15 years ago. I did not foresee this rapid of change. And I know that that campaign was based in story, that it was absolutely, we need to humanize this, that we've got to go out and have conversations and talk to people about who we are, that we have these shared— we want love just like you want love. And you— and, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh well, you sound just like me, you just have to love this other person, you know. So, um, it is— it has been proven to be so powerful, stories, in, in, in helping break down divides. Yes. So cool. Gosh. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Olivia, this has been really fun. I'm so happy to have you on the show. Thank you for everything that you're doing and contributing. Thank you for helping lift up people's voices and push them out to where they want to go, but they're just not sure. Yeah. You are doing that. So can you tell everybody a little bit about where they can Where can people find you?

So people can find me at my blog, which is speakingaboutpresenting.com.

I'm so glad you're doing better and that you are thriving. It's so, it's so great to be cheering you on from this side of the world.

Thank you, Sally. It's been a delight being here.

Alright, Movers, thanks for joining me for another episode. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Olivia. Thank you to Olivia for your insights that will help all of us in whatever way get past the barriers that are too often bouncing around in our brain and keeping us from really owning the moment. We all need these reminders. I don't care who who you are, how experienced you are, introvert, extrovert, doesn't matter. Uh, we all need these reminders because I myself really needed this reminder. Nervousness is a feeling. Confidence is a belief. And nerves are a normal part of playing big. Ooh, that one really resonated with me. And here's why, because I'm about to start playing really big. I've been talking about this new website, and because of really unforeseen circumstances and circumstances beyond my control, and just because life, because of life, the website is coming. It's coming. And I wish I had a date for you, but I don't yet. It's gonna be soon though. So, I just feel like a big tease because I've been talking about it for a really long time, and you probably have stopped believing me when I say that the new website's coming, but I promise you it's coming. And I'm so thrilled about it. It's gonna be really exciting. And part of that website is this new platform I'm calling Movers U, my online courses. And just recently I asked all of my subscribers over at thismovedme.com to give me some input on what are the courses that you want to see. What are the challenges that you're facing? What are the hurdles that you are trying to overcome? And how can I be of service to you on that? Because I think I know, I think I know, but I'd really like your input because you are the people who I want to help. So you thought leaders, you people who are driven by this idea that a talk can move the world, if that is you, I want to hear from you. So head over to thismovedme.com, send me a little note, or you can DM me on Instagram @thismovedme, find me on Facebook, but just reach out to me and say, hey Sally, I want to know more about these courses, and you can be a beta tester for me because then you get it free. Heyo! Or if you just want to throw your hat in the ring and say, I'm curious about this and I want You gotta let me know when this is coming. Then let me know because I'd love to hear from you and I'd love to make sure that what I'm doing is what you need and what will be most helpful for you. I have 8 million ideas, as you know, and some of them are already in the works. So it's coming. I'm really excited. But yeah, I'm feeling a little nervous and now it's just another reminder. That's what happens when you play big.

Deep breaths.

Sorry, that was really loud for you on the mic. All right, movers, unspeakers, purpose-driven leaders, I am here to cheer you on and help get your voice out in the world so that we are creating talks that move this world of ours.

Ah, Minnesota, you're killing me today in the best way. Beautiful.