187: Carmen Simon - On Making Your Talk Memorable

Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. Episode 187, on making your talks memorable with Carmen Simon, neuroscientist and yogi.

With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. Together with some fabulous guests, we will have a casual conversation about the art of public speaking. Because a good talk can move the world and it'll be fun.

Yeah, I would think making alien cows meaningful, that's not a small task.

I love your giggle. Wow.

Oh my gosh.

So waiting for everybody to figure out the alphabet. Hey, MOOvers, it is Sally and welcome back to another episode.

Here at This Moved Me. Today is kind of a big day because I am sitting in my new office and I'm singing everything again, which I hear from people who listen to the show that— and my past guest Tony Lloyd, hey Tony! Tony tells me that when I get nervous or when I'm really excited, I sing everything. And so lately, as I've been like preparing for the show, I'm like, oh my gosh, I've been singing so much because there is so much big stuff happening. So I'm sitting in my new office, which I love. It's not done. I'm surrounded by boxes, but it is lovely, and I cannot wait. I will be doing some behind-the-scenes Instagrammy kinds of things to show you this new— this moved me headquarters, which makes it sound like a much bigger deal than it is, but super, super super jazzed about it. It just feels, it's like light and lovely. And I've, I don't know, it makes such a huge difference. Space makes such a huge difference, doesn't it, you guys? Oh my gosh. I don't quite have my studio, my podcast studio set up, but I've got my Blue Yeti mic going and I'm liking how it's sounding. So let me know how it sounds to you guys. This is a bigger room than my old quote unquote office. So I'd be curious to see how it sounds for you guys, but I'm kind of digging it. So we'll see, we'll see. Baby steps. But I'm in my new office, which means I moved in the last week, and 2 days after I moved, 2 days after I launched the new website, This Moved Me. Have you guys been to it yet? Have you checked it out? I hope that you have because I'd love to know what you think. As I told you, really the focus is on trying to be more of a resource for you. So there is some really good stuff on there and I'd love for you to check it out. And part of that is my MoversU online course platform. I'm gonna be baby stepping my way into that because there's been a lot going on, but there is a course up there right now, the Get On Your Feet Challenge, all about trying to help you shift from script to impact. So that phase is often totally underutilized, you guys, and it has got to get more focus and attention. And sometimes some hand-holding will help you do what you need to do, so it's worth checking out. And there's more stuff coming. I've got a few more courses that will be baby-stepping their way out over the next week, and then next week I've got a really fun announcement about the next big course that will be coming in October. So be on the lookout for that. And all up, you know, the big kind of thing that pulls this all together to celebrate the new website, the new Movers U, the new course, heck, let's celebrate the new house too, is I pulled together a giveaway. And it was going to end today, August Is it the 23rd? Oh my gosh, it's my brother's birthday today! No, it's the 22nd. That's tomorrow. Happy early birthday, Jake! But the giveaway was going to end today on the 22nd, and I've extended it another week because I'm waiting to confirm a few more goodies that are coming, and I would really like to include those and tell you about them. And I really honestly have not had much time to promote it for obvious reasons. So if you have not yet had a chance to sign up for the giveaway, head over there and do the that now. The link, it's a Bitly, okay? So it's bit.ly/tmmgiveaway, like this moved me giveaway, tmmgiveaway. So bit.ly/tmmgiveaway. So go sign up there because there is tons of really good stuff there, a free hour of coaching from me, a Logitech Spotlight remote, which I have to tell you, every time I hand to my speakers, like if we're rehearsing and they don't have the remotes with them for whatever reason, I'll hand them a Spotlight remote. They're like, ooh, this is nice. And it does, it just feels really good in your hand and it does cool stuff. So you just feel very sophisticated with this thing.

It's awesome. So check that out.

Um, and then there's a whole bunch of other stuff too. But I think that one in particular is kind of cool.

So today's episode—

let's move on to the episode. Today's episode is with the brilliant Carmen Simon, and I met Carmen last year at the Presentation Summit, which is coming up in September. And here, listen, you guys, if you consider yourself a presentation professional in any way, and in anything that is connected to presentations, whether that's, um, yeah, at your place of business or it's your business, whether you're a speaker, a designer, a coach, you know, whether you use PowerPoint or Prezi or Keynote, you know, whether you're into kind of narrative development and story, like, you should be at this presentation conference. A, it is so much fun. Like, it is just an incredibly light-hearted, fun group of people who take the, the craft of building presentations very seriously, but they do not take themselves seriously, and I really love that combination. And B, it is so full of information, ahas, tips and tricks. Like, it is non-stop from beginning to end. So, and C, it's in San Diego. So what else is there to say? Supposedly San Diego is the most beautiful city in the world. I haven't been there since I was about 11, and I thought it was lovely, but you know, what had I seen at that point in my life? But here's the thing, you guys, most of you have not been to St. Paul, Minnesota. So, you know, we'll see who wins out in the end, St. Paul or San Diego. I suppose it depends on what time of year you're visiting. And at the summit this year, I'm gonna be doing 4, maybe 5. Now I think they added me to a panel. I am gonna be busy, super, a little busy bee there. I'm gonna be doing 4 different sessions: a keynote, 2 smaller breakout sessions, and one of their pre-conference sessions, which I'm really excited about. It's gonna be It's going to be a lot of fun, and I'm excited to bring my coaching point of view to the docket. For a long time, the summit was a very PowerPoint kind of designer-heavy conference, and in some ways they still are, but they are also bringing in more coaches and speakers and people to talk about the other aspects of presentation development. So there's something for everybody, and I would love to see you there. And, uh, Carmen will be there too. So back to Carmen as we ease into the episode here. She is amazing. I have to tell you, I'm, I'm so excited to share this conversation with you because it holds so much insight from a totally different perspective. Here's what I love about Carmen, aside from the fact that she's really smart and she's gracious and she's funny. She's a neuroscientist and her expertise is in helping people develop content that sticks. Not from my perspective, which is, here's what I've learned that works and here's what I think is interesting and here's what audiences react to. But she comes at it from the perspective, here's what the brain wants, here's what the research says. And it's so powerful and she knows how to boil it down and make make it easily understood and meaningful and meaty. So she's a wonderful, powerful combination of the art and the science, and I have learned so much from her. So I cannot wait for you to soak her in as much as I have over the last year. Here she is, Carmen Simon.

This huge company, and she's like, this happiness psychology is real. Yes, it's a real thing.

Yeah, how cool is that?

That's great. Yes, I'm so glad it's real.

I'm about to teach a Happiness 101 course. Uh, yeah, yeah, because, you know, it's the nice thing about, uh, being a neuroscientist is that once you understand a bit more about the brain, everybody in your audience has a brain.

It's true.

So you're very, uh, applicable.

Exactly, exactly. So then you can look in different fields and see where that brain applies itself a little bit more and where it doesn't.

So I'm so curious, what, what is your happiness talk about as a neuroscientist? So cool.

Yeah, it's, um, I'm noticing then people in fields that you would think are the happiest are actually not. Like, you see a happiness course taught at Yale or at Harvard or at companies where most people make fairly hefty salaries, and yet they're still requesting this. And what I'm noticing is that people are associating happiness with something that happens as a result of a process, like, I'm going to get that drug out and get it on the market, and as a result, I'll be happy, or I'm going to graduate, I'm going to be happy. I'm going to—

then I'll be happy if I just do this or have this or get this, then I'll be happy.

Yes, it's an if-then process that we have in our brains, and it actually works the other way around. Once you get yourself in that happy state as a result, then you can get that project out faster and you can graduate on better terms with yourself and finish projects in a more manageable yoga-ish kind of—

I love it—

state of mind.

I'm so glad that that's true. That's, that's a good—

trouble is, is like to get yourself there, that's where, right?

Despite all the evidence, like when things aren't going well, how do you get yourself in a state of it's all good, I got this?

And one of the steps is what you're doing, is that, um, that gratitude list. So acknowledging that there are so many things that you can be happy for that otherwise would just go unnoticed. Even if it's like, right, last night I wrote, I'm just so excited for this pen. I don't have it here at my desk, but I bought this pen that is small initially, and when you press, it becomes larger.

Oh, cool. What? That's a thing? That's awesome. Look how happy it makes you. You're so happy about it. Exactly.

I'm holding this pen. I don't know who designed it, but it just fits in your hand just perfectly, and it has just the right amount of shine, but not too much where it's Yeah, I'm just writing how grateful I am for this pen.

That's great. Well, that's the thing is every once in a while my kids will just be like complaining and mad about something and I'll be like, say 3 nice things, say 3 positive things, you know? And they're like, um, I am alive. Uh, we're going to the pool. And it's a really nice day. By the third one, they're like, oh, yeah, okay.

Yeah, actually, this feels good.

Yeah. That's amazing. If I can remember to do that instead of being like, stop your complaining. You're so lucky. I would just like stop momming them for a moment and see if you can shift their thinking. But I have to do it first.

Yes.

Oh my gosh, cool. Well, I have to tell you, Carmen, last year at the Presentation Summit, I'd heard so much about you. You were like the hero, the goddess, the queen of the conference. Everyone was like, Carmen, Carmen, Carmen. I was like, oh my gosh. And then we had done these email exchanges about the panel that we were on together, and I thought, I am on the opposite end of the argument of this woman again and again. And I'm a little nervous because she's a scientist. I'm just, I don't know, a creative, feel it out as I go person.

Oh no, you can't have science without creativity. The two have got to go hand in hand.

Yes, well, and that's, I mean, once we were sitting on that panel together, I was like, actually, we agree on a lot more than it looked. And we were just defining the edges and being a little provocative, I think, per the—

Yes, yes.

—push from the conference. But it was so great to be there with you, and I learned so much sitting in your keynote, sitting in the audience of your keynote, about memory and about how to make stories stick. Because of course, I'm trying to do the same thing and have came at things a little differently, but I really learned a lot about how, like, why the things that I tell people to do works. Yeah. So cool.

It definitely is. And it's a privilege anytime I get the chance to remind people that memory is so fallible, as we all know. And we're not humbled enough by how much people forget after we talk to them. And if we were, we would redesign a few things and a few approaches to make sure that you're in charge of making it happen versus kind of letting it happen. I'm finding this contrast in corporations that I work with where memory is concerned. Many people believe that, well, I'm just going to go talk to some clients. How hard can it be? And they're just letting things happen in terms of memory. So people will extract, if they're lucky, some things from your conversation. But making it happen more deliberately in terms of memory is something that I advocate, because unless you're in charge of what people remember, it's going to be a lot harder to get them to decide in your favor, because the brain only makes decisions based on what it remembers. Is not on what it forgets. Right, right. And the question is, are you in charge of what that other person's brain remembers? And just way too often, people leave it to chance. Sometimes I'll ask people, so what is it that you hope people, other people will remember after talking to you? And they don't really have that clarity. So step 1, if you want to be memorable, know what you want to be memorable for. Oh, yes.

I love that. It seems so obvious, and yet you're right. I think most people hope that, that they, they just will be memorable because of the essence of their being. And I think some people will walk away saying, I'm gonna remember the experience of that, I might remember that person, but if the idea is lost, like, if the idea is lost, and if people don't correlate the idea with you.

Mm-hmm. Because source memory is just as critical as content memory.

Mm. Say more about that. What do you mean by that?

Well, imagine that you have a brilliant idea. Let's just say that, here, since we're in California and I was just finishing avocado toast, is it?

That's perfect. In your yoga shirt. So great.

Let's just say that you want to proclaim to all people that that avocado toast with some tomatoes on top is a perfect breakfast to start your day. But then, and then they think, oh, what a great idea. I'm just so glad that Sally came up with that. So, but if it wasn't you who came up with it, or somebody else who came up with that, they're thinking, wait a second, that is a great idea, but somebody else said it. So source memory, who said what, is just as important as the content that you get people to remember. As you're reflecting on your content, just make sure that people know to associate you with your great ideas. Otherwise, you may have great ideas and then later on people say, "Oh, I really remember XYZ," but they're not giving you the credit. So imagine a while back, Coca-Cola sponsored the Olympics, and then they did a survey to see if people knew who was the sponsor, and quite a few said Pepsi. Oh no. Oh no.

Oh, I bet that didn't go over well.

It's the worst when you end up giving somebody else's content and you don't get credit for it.

Yeah. So what did they need to do to change it? Like, what did they miss in their Coca-Cola campaign?

Well, as you show up in front of audiences, they can create different types of memories. They will have the memory of the content that, if you're lucky, the content that you're sharing. The memory of the context in which everything happens, which is where the experience goes in, very much like you were saying earlier, and they could have the memory of you. And the more that you establish a connection between, between the three, the stronger your positioning. And sometimes people aspire at too much. So obviously the ideal would be that everybody remembers everything all at once, but sometimes maybe your, your approach could be get them to remember you first. As an entity and then insist more on content. Get the brain to become familiar. Contrary to popular belief, we're not really that much after novelty. The brain loves familiarity, and it loves familiarity because the brain is a cognitively lazy organ. With a choice to think or not to think, would rather not think. And the more familiar with things, we don't have to expand so much cognitive energy. That's why it's easier to learn from people that you've already known for a while versus people who are immediately new, and they also have new ideas. You see how you're jarring the brain now too much, right? So once you get people familiar with the source, then you get them more familiar with the content, and then you work on the connection between the two. So anytime they hear from you, they know, oh yes, that's the person that talks about creativity. Or anytime they hear from me, oh yes, that's the person who talks about memory. So constantly create that connection, that, that link, because ultimately what's memory but an association between two concepts?

Right. Oh, so I love that because I do think, um, just boiling it down for people, because I, I guess I, my approach has always been the same thing, like how do you create a connection with your audience? It's about you, you and your audience. So building that connection first creates the pathway then to your idea, but that's So I'm glad to know that that's based in something real.

It is. I remember I just was on a group tour. I was visiting some countries in Europe, and I'm not really the group tour type of person, but for some reason there was a lapse in my critical judgment that day, so I joined this group, and I was so impressed. I'm so glad that I did. And this tour guide did something very well. She spent the first 2 hours out of 12 that we were together just simply getting to know us and telling us more about her. And then she started hitting us with all the history and the details and the years and the emperors and all of this stuff. But first she established that human connection. So now we knew the source. Many content-related guidelines I've learned from tour guides.

That's awesome. Really?

As much as I resist these tours, some of these guides are just— I'm not sure if they go to some guided training for proper communication skills. And if they do, I want to join that because I have met some really, really good tour guides.

Well, but see, that's so funny because I don't remember dates. I don't know if different brains remember different things. But I will remember like a visual image. Yes. Right? And I remember you talked about that in your keynote about— I even remember Jennifer and Mike were talking about their first date. And I remember like not all of it, but I remember there was something about ice cream and a bright green shirt or a bright yellow shirt or something. Oh, yes.

And Jan would be very, very happy to hear that you still remember her lime green shirt. And it makes sense because regardless of people's preferences, you might hear the, the myth that, oh, some people are more auditory learners, some people are visual, some people are kinesthetic. Physiologically speaking, that's a myth because we build our memories based on how we take in the world, and we take in the world through our senses. Many scientists say that we have more than 5, but 60 to 70% of our body receptors, which is how we take in the world, are visual. So you cannot go wrong with visuals. If you want to ingrain a memory in somebody else's brain, make things visual, and that increases the chances that a memory trace will be formed, which is why you're very likely to remember something that was just so vivid. And unfortunately, in business content, what I'm noticing, hardly ever are things so vivid and easily converted into a visual.

Right. Well, and I mean, aside from the fact that it's pleasing to the ears to— when somebody's telling a story, to imagine it in your own head. Like, there's something so cool about going on that experience with people and being there with them as they relive that moment. Like, that's the part I love about it. And what you're saying is that is exactly what— when you can light up the audience's brain on that, that's the only way that it's gonna sink in.

And when you can light it up not only in just one area but in multiple areas. For instance, I work with a lot of clients who are in the technology space, and they talk about abstract things like streaming data or predictive analytics or the Internet of Things. So see, when I mention these phrases, especially to people who are listening right now and they can't see anything, what is it that you really picture when somebody says Internet of Things? What is it that you see? And for the most part, you don't. You just kind of take it on the surface, which means that you're only activating a few parts of the brain, mainly your language comprehension and speaking areas. That's it. You know, you're not activating a whole lot. But if I said, imagine you're in Vegas and you're walking the streets of Vegas and Bellagio is to your left and you can see the fountains and you can hear some music, and suddenly you realize that you're in traffic and you're just about to cross the street and a car is about to hit you. And if you're looking at statistics, Vegas has been hit literally and metaphorically by a lot of accidents. People there drive like maniacs. And they started to do something about it. So now Vegas is proclaiming itself as becoming a smart city by making the streetlights being smart in the sense of they capture sensors, they capture data through some sensors as to what's happening to the traffic and to the pedestrians. Many cars now receive that data. So if you are approaching a pedestrian area, you'll get the signal on your dashboard saying slow down. So there's constant communication between some of these physical objects like streetlights and the pedestrian areas and the way that the cars are receiving that information. So they're making the city a little bit safer. That's the Internet of Things in real life. Cool. You see, now you can picture it a lot more, and I have activated way more brain parts by describing that versus just two language-related areas, right?

So talk a little bit about the power of metaphor. I mean, you kind of just stepped into it, but I feel like, you know, sometimes when my speakers are struggling with how to, uh, really find the tangible meaning and resonance and connection with their audience, I'll say, let's, let's, let's talk about it in the metaphor first. Let's use the metaphor And then we can pull out all the different pieces because I think there's just easy on-ramps for people to find their own meaning and connections. Why is that? What's the power of the metaphor in meaning and understanding and memory?

Well, there are several where the brain is concerned. One is when you have a metaphor, quite often you're placing the brain in a visual spot. For example, let's just say that I said to our listeners the concept of mind. Everybody's talking about you change your mind, you lost your mind, mindset. What, what, what, what is mind? What do you see when I say mind? And I like this metaphor that someone provided a while back, which was look at the mind as a pair of scissors. One blade is your brain and the other is the environment. So that's how you're cutting your way through life. That's where your mind is coming at the intersection of how your brain is interacting with your environment. And things happen from there. I see it's a lot easier to picture a pair of scissors than it is to picture an abstract. Right. Totally. Right? So that's one of the advantages that you get when you place a metaphor next to something that's abstract. Another is that it provides the brain with cognitive ease, meaning that we'd much rather remember something that comes to mind easily versus something where we have to strain ourselves. So tell me a metaphor that you've heard lately, lately that you've really enjoyed. Is there something that's on your mind? Ha, since we're talking about the mind.

Right. Yeah, so I'm working with a woman on a talk where she's talking about like the redemptive power of architecture. And she said it's kind of like, for her, it's kind of like when she and her grandparents would go treasure hunting. They would go like to estate sales, and she loved finding the things in the bottom of the old box and pulling it out and doing research on what it is, where it's from. And all of a sudden, that that thing had so much more meaning and significance and had a story. And, and that's how she views architecture, and that's what she wants to do with architecture, is take these old dilapidated buildings and, and figure out what the story is with it and make it meaningful and important to us again. So we were using that like dig in the bottom of the box and what is in the bottom of the box and what happens when we pull it out and then, you know, so we used the story of the experience of her going out with her grandparents, coming back, digging in the box, finding the thing, going to the library. So we took that story and turned it into the process that she uses in her architecture.

I really, I really like that. So imagine if somebody else were to recollect this days later, it'll be a lot easier for their minds to reactivate the concept of digging the bottom of a box versus concept about architecture that would be a lot more complex and complicated, especially for somebody who's not an expert.

Right. That's why, for people who don't care about architecture, like, I feel like the awesome thing about metaphor is that it can move beyond the very thing that we're talking about, and other people can enter into it and find— take that universal aspect of our stories and find themselves in it.

Exactly. Yeah, so that would be another trait, uh, yet altogether. So you're bringing up some relevancy and some, uh, some emotional variables. And I think you said just the right trait which sometimes business metaphors lack, which is allowing others to find themselves in your metaphor. Which is why I don't advocate those kinds of metaphors related to the space shuttle or some extreme sports that people like to associate their content with. Because even though some content may say, yes, our technology is defying gravity and you're showing us a a picture of a space shuttle, but when was the last time you were in a space shuttle? Right. Versus digging at the bottom of something, it's very likely that you're digging at the bottom of something and finding some small treasure of yourself, of your own, just weeks ago.

Right. Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting point of like what metaphors connect, what metaphors are meaningful for people. They have to recognize it. Because you're translating an experience they haven't had with one hopefully they have. Exactly.

So the guideline that I would have for anyone listening is to be sure to avoid cliché metaphors. So no more of those icebergs that we see so often. If you— you know the iceberg metaphor that I'm talking about?

Oh yeah, there's the tip and then all everything underneath.

If you go to Google and you type in iceberg metaphor, you get over 350,000 results, which means that's how many other people before you have used that metaphor. FYI. Mountaineering metaphors get to me so fast. I was listening to this guy who climbed Mount Everest 7 times. Wow. Huge deal. He has earned the right to use a mountaineering metaphor for what he's talking about. But as mortals, that we have no business— I remember what he was saying when he got to the top of a mountain that he was climbing in order to train for Everest. He was saying, I realized that I was at the top of the mountain, and that's the least safe position that you can put yourself in. And for business content, what do we visualize when somebody has reached some success? There they are at the top of the mountain, right? And that's how we can tell you see some, some of these metaphors break, because if you were to live that thing in real life It wouldn't be like that. Right. So, cautionary remark for all of us is to see how far can you stretch a metaphor before it breaks.

Yeah. Well, and if anything, part of the reason that metaphor works for him is because he's turning it on its head. It could be, yes. He's taking the thing that everybody else says about it and says, actually, no. Because I feel like that's the piece that makes you go, oh, new.

That's new insight. Yeah, so an addendum to our theory here could be avoid cliché metaphors unless you can take a very trite and tired one and twist it, just like he's doing with the top of the mountain metaphor. And then we can extend the challenge for all of our listeners to say, what could you do to the iceberg metaphor that would suddenly appear fresh? Good, Sally. Then you're giving the brain the best of both worlds, which is something that's familiar, but a twist because surprises always catch our attention.

Mm, I think that's a good challenge, Carmen. I would love to hear if anybody can take the iceberg metaphor and tell us something new, twist it for us and bring a little new insight so that we're like, oh, good point. Okay, well, I hope I'm not surprising you with this, but at this point in the show, I like to share a "this moved me" moment, something that has got you inspired, maybe a talk that you've seen or even a, even a song that you heard recently or show that you're into, something that's moved you. Because I like us to dig into why, what moves people and why. Do you have one? Are you ready? Oh, I keep on thinking like, wait, where do I start?

I have, I have quite a few. I'm moved really often. I don't know if I'm I'm just like one of those overly sensitive people, but just yesterday, for instance, I was traveling on a Southwest flight, and you know Southwest is already known as the airline that moves people physically and metaphorically, since we're talking about that. And on my flight, it was a flight attendant that was helping with this flight, and it was her first day at work. Work and also her birthday. So as we landed, we were just taxiing to get to the gate and the other flight attendant says, "Hey everybody, I wanted to let you know that it's Heidi's first day at work and I'd love for all of you to sing happy birthday as we're taxiing." And now here you have about 100 people or so, all strangers, singing happy birthday to Heidi. It's taxing on this area. And I thought that moment was so touching for some reason. So you tell me, would that moment have moved you?

Totally. I love that stuff. I love it when strangers are brought together under a common goal, like people who normally the moment before are just just wishing that they were by themselves, right? Like, don't want to touch the people next to them. Everybody's on their last leg of patience. I mean, and then there's something like this. It's like, hey, let's all come together. I love it.

Let's all come together. And I think that there is some power in singing. And obviously, once you get into the rhythm, since we're talking about cognitive ease, the brain enjoys that. And there's that extra connection, like you said. There's a contrast between something that you know, which is a happy birthday song, but then you look next to you and you're singing next to a person you've never seen before. I'm writing a new book, and in it I'm sharing this experience that's equally moving to this one, since you're talking about singing. I went to Toronto once, and Toronto has these restaurants that are called Au Noir. Have you heard of Au Noir restaurants? No. I would totally recommend them. They're the restaurants that you go in and you have dinner in the dark and you're served by blind people. Really?

Oh my gosh, that's fascinating.

So already the premise is a bit more unusual. And before you go in, you have the choice to order something that you can see or you have the choice of choosing the surprise me menu, which means that not only are you eating in the dark, but you have no clue what you're going to be served.

Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

So I picked that choice and I went in with a client of mine in Toronto. And the minute that you go in, everything becomes pitch black. So you're being guided by your arm by your waiter, and you find your wait to sit down at some point and you have no notion whether you are surrounded by 5 other people, 50 other people. Are you in the middle of the restaurant? Are you to the side of the restaurant? And all you hear is just a few voices, distant voices, and a bit of the noises from the silverware. And at some point next to our— we recognize that not too far away from us there are some other people eating, and one of their waiters says, "Oh, I'm so glad that it's your birthday." So now we have to sing happy birthday to somebody that not only do you not know, but you cannot see. And everybody's saying happy birthday, and then I get this weird idea when everything now becomes silent and equally dark to say to this person, "Hey, would you like to hear a happy birthday in Romanian?" So he's like, "Yeah, sure." So here I am singing happy birthday in a foreign language, in a foreign land, in a room that's pitch black to somebody I don't know. And that was for some reason a moving moment. Totally.

Do you think because no one could see each other, did it free people more than sitting on the plane?

Oh, absolutely, because there's no way yesterday in that Southwest flight I could have said, "Hey, Heidi, everybody, would you like to hear happy birthday now in Romanian?" One more time, this time in Romanian.

Take it from the top. Oh my gosh, totally. I mean, I remember in acting classes in college when we did mass mask work. You put on a mask and then you're told to, you know, like, whatever it was, like different acting exercises. And, um, you know, the freedom that comes when no one knows who you are, or like those, you know, the crazy masquerade parties. It's like, well, what will people do once they have some anonymity? And of course, you know, we see the ugly side of that on the internet, but I just love the visual of you guys sitting in this restaurant, pitch black.

Did it make you at all nervous? No, it's— I went in with this notion of I'm very curious to know what you can find and figure out next. And you get an increased appreciation for your senses. Because as you're biting into this thing, you're thinking, is this meat or is it mushrooms?

Oh my gosh, it's crazy, right? Oh my gosh. Well, and it's— it changes the whole point of going out to dinner.

Oh, it totally does. I was talking to this client, and I was— now the only stimulus you can rely on as you're maintaining the connection is the voice. And even as we're coming through to our listeners right now through our voices The voice is a powerful tool if you know how to manage it well, and sometimes we're not humbled enough by the power of our own voice. How often do people really love to hear their recordings? Never.

I've never met anyone ever who's like, yeah, I sound good.

Let's play that again.

Do I really sound like that? Yes, yes, you do, and it's great. We're very used to it. I know you're not, but the rest of us are very— we've accepted you and your voice and we love it. So time to move on. You're okay. Yes.

So the conclusion is if you want to get in touch with your senses and learn more about your reactions to the unknown, go to an Au Noir restaurant. I think that ever since they started having them in multiple places, they might even be here in the US. They originated in Paris as per the name Au Noir. And it's a very moving experience. I am going to look it up.

I would love to do that sometime. It'd be such an adventure and so different because I'm so like, I just think the whole time I would just be like, oh my gosh, what's happening? What is it? What's it? You're like, shh, Sally, calm down. Yes. Take it in. You are not creating all the buzz. Like, let it come to you. That would be good for me. I think it'd be really a good challenge, and I think I'd be kind of nervous. So I love your approach of like, no, bring your curiosity and openness, and what's gonna happen?

So cool. If nothing else, you might renew your appreciation of mushrooms, right?

Or meat, whatever you end up getting. You're like, is this meat? Meat or a mushroom. I'm gonna— next time we have dinner and there's meat and mushrooms, I'm gonna just close your eyes and see what happens, see if I can identify it, see how long it takes. Cool. Well, my This Moved Me moment is— has been building over the last few weeks because I recently discovered a podcast called, uh, RFK Tape. And it's about the assassination of Robert Kennedy in 1968. Have you listened to it? No. Oh, okay. Well, it's wonderful. It's so well done. It's by the same people who do the show Crime Town, which honestly I never got into. It was too like mafia boss. I don't know, I just didn't care. But I love, uh, the Kennedys, and I've— I just— I loved their sense of oratory and their care of words and the aspirational message that they brought at such an important time in our country's history. And now I'm just, I'm feeling that. I just want that for our country so badly. I'm like, we need RFK to come back right now. And anyway, this episode, the show that they put on, I think yesterday. So this is early August at the time that we're recording this. They shared an episode of one of the speechwriters for Robert Kennedy, and he talked about this beautiful set of oratory and prose that they put together. And it just made me bawl as I was listening. I was listening in the car yesterday And this speechwriter still remembers it word for word. And then you hear in the background the echo of Robert Kennedy saying these words. And he was talking about what the gross national product does not encompass. It doesn't encompass our curiosity, our creativity, our effort. It doesn't encompass the quality of our children's play. It doesn't encompass encompass the love that we have for our spouses. It doesn't encompass the way the flowers smell. It doesn't— I mean, it just went on and on and all these beautiful remembrances of what life is really about. And it just blew my mind that a politician went so deeply in that direction. And was so strongly trying to shift the tone and tenor of oratory. And in an age where I feel like the words in the public center are so ugly and icky, the words that came out of this man's mouth and that the speechwriter helped inspire and bring out, I was like, this is the power of words. This, this is what we could do. And like, come on world, let's do it again. You know, it just, it was really, really beautifully done. So I would have to go listen, check it out.

You're describing it well.

It's so, it's, it's really a great show aside from that moment in particular, obviously really moved me, but the whole show is really interesting and cool and it kind of makes you go, Oh man, maybe, maybe he wasn't shot by Sirhan Sirhan. Oh, I don't know. I'm undecided at this point, but I love just thinking about that time in history because it feels very resonant right now.

I'm going to check it out. Good. Yeah, totally.

Go check it out. Okay, well, Carmen, And I feel like I missed something important in our conversation, and that is your story. We dove, we went so headfirst. I was so curious and dug into some of your expertise and insight in terms of memory and for us as speakers, but I feel like I missed a little bit of your story. Would you mind, would you take just a few more minutes and share with us how you got to where you are now, where you are helping people do something more and make the moments that they're in front of an audience really matter?

We were talking about memory, and I'm very, very intrigued by what the brain remembers and equally importantly what the brain forgets. And I remember distinctly many, many years ago I saw the movie The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Do you remember that movie?

I don't remember the movie, but—

You may remember the book. It was a part of a trilogy, and I had the chance to watch the Swedish version of that movie. And the character, from what maybe some of the listeners remember, maybe you have read, is this heroine who's very dark and edgy. And there's a scene in that movie where she's sitting on a windowsill in a 22-room apartment in Stockholm, an apartment that she had gotten with some illicit money.

So that's why there's 22 rooms. Oh my gosh.

But it was just this really intriguing looking place, and that she's sitting there in the window and she's watching the sunset fall over Stockholm and in all her darkness and edginess. And I'm thinking, I must see what she's seeing. So I booked a flight from San Francisco to Stockholm. You did? And I said, I'm setting forth to see what she saw. And I went there, and imagine that The journey is not the easiest because you have to take quite a few hours to get there. And I get there and— have you ever been to Stockholm? No. It's a beautiful city and you immediately fall in love with all the art galleries and the canals and the people and different exhibits, ice bars. I was there for 5 days. In the cab on my way to the airport to return to San Francisco, I'm sitting there and thinking, There's something else that I came here to see.

Seriously? That's amazing.

You forgot to go to the 22-room apartment? And they organize tours and everything. So if you want to go and do a Girl with the Dragon Tattoo tour, you can do that. Really? And it totally escaped my mind. So imagine, I started asking, if we forget so much of things that are important to us and things that set forward to do, what does an audience do with things that they may or may not remember? How much really stays with them? And the biggest epiphany that I've had, which is what's gotten me to where I'm at right now in terms of research and applying memory to business, is this: we, we used to believe that memory was there to help us keep track of the past, and that's not true. Memory has evolved to help us keep track of the future. If you think about all the memory problems that you had last week, for instance, and all of us have had them, 60 to 80% of those memory problems are not about you forgetting the past. They're about you forgetting a future intention. Yeah, that's true. Very much like I had set an intention in the future to go and visit the, that apartment and forgot to do it. Many of your customers are going to listen to you and say, yeah, that content that I heard on that show was just 'Oh my gosh, this is so life-changing, I'm going to act on it right away.' And most often that does not happen. So retrospective memory, remembering the past, is still useful, but prospective memory, which is remembering to act on a future intention, I believe will be the trend that will become a lot more obvious to many people in business because decisions happen in the future. So unless people remember you there, It'll be a lot harder to stay viable.

Awesome. Well, you— I have learned so much from you, Carmen, and I loved connecting with you, and I got to meet you in person last year, and I think I'll see you again in September.

Yes, I'm looking forward to that, and thank you so much for all the inspiration and for your outstanding show, and it's a privilege to be here.

Thanks so much for listening to another episode here on This Moved Me.

Don't forget, the giveaway is live for one more week.

Head on over to bit.ly/tmmgiveaway. Do it now. You've got one more week.

Go check it out.

Okay. This Moved Me.

What is moving You!

Mino, come here. Hey Movers, it's Sally Koering Zimney and— oh gosh, why can't I hear this? Weird, super weird. What's happening? Check, check. Is that better?