237: The Journey Series: B.T. Harman - Embracing Vulnerability

Hey Movers, it's Sally Koering Zimney with Be Moved, and I am so excited about this episode today. It is the second episode in our Journey series. It is with a man named BT Harmon, and years ago when I had BT on This Moved Me, he was known as Brett Trap.

I had to think for a second.

Brett Trap. But then he got married. And he fell in love, and it's such a beautiful story and journey, and he became B.T. Harman, and I love it. So Brett is all about embracing vulnerability, and as we are, he does it so well all the time, so thoughtfully. And he's not like, you know, showing all and just like bleeding in front of us, but he is so thoughtful in how our real stories, how our struggles can open up people to a different way of thinking and being and doing. And he has embraced this in such a powerful way. And he— it took him a long time to embrace his own vulnerability in a really powerful way. And it— that's real. Yeah, I just— there was some— I— when I think back on this episode, you can tell I'm like, oh my gosh, it was just one of my all-time favorites because of the way B.T. talks about our courage in these moments and why it's worth it, why it is so worth it for us to creatively do something that matters, something that is real, something that scares us, because this is it. So, In my mind, vulnerability is such a huge part of our journey, and BT embraces it so beautifully. So I'm really, really thrilled for you to step into BT's story and step into his experience as a gay man who came out later in life, and how it took a really long time for him to really share that part of himself and how beautiful and so, so worth it it has been. He's an amazing person, so I'm really, really excited for you to hear this and just remind ourselves of the importance of that part of our journey of embracing vulnerability as we step out front and that it might be the thing that, uh, doesn't just grow your audience and it doesn't just do all those things that we know that they can do, but, um, it clicks into place our purpose and our being. And that, that is beautiful and powerful. So, uh, here he is. Mr. B.T. Harmon. Hey, movers. It's Sally Z with Be Moved. Let's go create some talks that will move this world. We're going to talk with amazing speakers, share tips, tricks, resources, and we are going to be moved so that our audience can be moved. Moved me. What is moving you?

Having said, like, what really drew me into this, um, bring me back a little bit in terms of who you are. I know that's a big question, and, and you just wrote a whole long story about it, but like, you obviously have a connection to telling stories that goes beyond just telling your own. Can you kind of talk about your kind of creative life and how you got to a point where you were even had the skills to share your story like you have.

Yes, I grew up in North Alabama. My dad was a preacher. My mom was a teacher. I think both of them sort of had a facility for language, but I think I get it mostly from my mom. My mom is a very well-spoken, whether that's in writing or in speaking. Puts her words together very well. And so I think I'm a big believer that, you know, if you're a child and you're just listening to somebody like my mom talk all the time, she's a big talker, you know, sort of helps develop your facility for language and storytelling and that kind of thing. I was actually going through some sort of old family artifacts a couple years back and came across a letter from my first grade teacher, Ms. Harvey, and this would have been in 1980, gosh, 7 or 8, and she had handwritten a letter to my parents sort of updating them on my progress. It was a very small private school. And so she said, you know, I think Brett would make a good storyteller because he always knows the right word to put the emphasis on when he's reading in class.

Hmm.

So I thought that was so funny that she had kind of identified that in me. And to this day, it's something I take great pride in is, you know, the ability to connect, to inspire, to to pull people into a story, whether that's just for pure entertainment or whether that's, you know, has a bigger, a bigger purpose. And so, um, so yeah, I went to, uh, went to a small Christian school in high school, played sports and athletics, uh, was involved in different, uh, areas of student government, things like that. Went to college, majored in professional writing. So again, was always sort of drawn to, uh, the written word, um, in addition to the spoken word. Did speech competitions and that kind of thing. And then after college, uh, started with a startup a tiny 3-person company that did fundraising for elementary schools, an organization called Boosterthon. And they basically do a fun-run fundraiser for elementary schools. And so being an English major out of college, of course I did not have many other job prospects. And so I jumped on with a couple of guys who had started that, moved to Birmingham, Alabama, worked in the field for 4 years, and then moved into our corporate office in 2009 as our sort of head of marketing. Eventually became our Vice President of Client Experience where I led a 20-person creative team, mostly making content for kids. We had some character and fitness curriculum that we pushed out to about a million students across the country and over 1,000 schools. And so we had an in-house creative team that did— we did videos for students, animated, you know, short animated films. We did music, books. So while we were raising funds for the school, We also wanted to be providing some really interesting, engaging character content for students to kind of get those conversations going both in the classroom and at home. And so, so really was in marketing for the better part of a decade working for this one company. Had an unbelievable experience working for Booster and loved leading my team, loved getting my hands dirty in the creative, whether that's a video or a song or a book we're putting together. And then, you know, in 2016, sort of went out on my own and embarked on a new career of being a freelance consultant and working on brand strategy and then also doing some speaking as well.

And here you are. So you came to a place, a moment in your life where you said, I want to tell my own story, my own personal story. So what led you to that moment where you were willing to take that risk and jump in and go for it?

Yeah, so sort of the sub-narrative of my career in my 20s and early 30s was that I was same-sex attracted. That was the phrase that I used then, more commonly known as gay. And so had sort of been just— grew up in a very conservative background. Again, Dad was a pastor. All of my friends and close community are evangelical Christians. And so just was in a place where I just didn't want to engage with that part of my life. I was scared of it. Um, did never date it and really just kind of became a workaholic. But that entire time, beginning really around 2007, I just began to take notes, um, on this story, on this— my thoughts is of dealing with this kind of, in my mind, big, bad, scary, taboo thing. And so, um, every time I would see something, you know, I'm a big believer that if you're going to create content, whether that's writing or speaking, you've got to be a relentless noticer. You just have to notice everything. And a lot of that is noticing your own emotions, noticing your own emotional state in all the different circumstances in life. And so I just wrote down everything. You know, if I'd hear someone use a homophobic slur, I would just write that down, you know, the circumstances around that. If I would have a thought about loneliness or about shame or about, you know, logging on to Facebook and seeing all of my friends being married, you know, into their 20s and 30s and then eventually having children, here I am perpetually single. Sort of drowning in my own despair. You know, it's a lot of, obviously a lot of darkness and tough moments, but just began to write all that down with this sense of, you know, Brett, one day you need to write this, you need to put this into a story and put it out there so people can gain a new perspective on living a closeted gay life, for lack of a better term. And so for about a decade, that's what I did. And, you know, eventually began to come out to kind of my inner circle of friends around 2010. 2011. And then in 2016, I resigned my position at my job, which was not related to this story. But, you know, a couple weeks after I resigned, I launched this project called Blue Babies Pink and sort of came out on Facebook in a very, you know, public way, which lots of people advised me not to do. But I just felt like what I wanted to do and what I thought God wanted me to do. And so, so I kind of came out and not in an angry or emotional or dramatic way. But then I said, hey, I'm going to write about this. It's gonna be a 44-installment memoir. I'm gonna write one post per day for 44 days. And if you wanna join along, you're welcome to come, come and read. And so, you know, I kind of came into it and I think I even told my readers, I said, you know, it matters more to me that this story is told than it's heard. So if nobody listens, you know, if I'm literally just typing my truth into the internet ether, I was okay with that because that was part of my healing process. You know, if only my family or only my friends read along, I was fine with that as well. But, you know, as it turned out, a few more people jumped on for the ride, which was a lot of fun.

That's kind of an understatement. A few more people. That's great. Well, that's really interesting, Brett. And I'd love to explore that a little bit when you talk about there is, there's a lot of reasons why we tell stories. And sometimes it's not for other people. It's for us. It's part of the healing. And, you know, one of the things, and you talk really openly about it, is the vulnerability that any of us face before we stand up and share something that is personal and that feels a little risky. So can you just sort of talk about how you dealt with that piece and sort of got to the point where you said, I'm I'm sharing it anyway, um, even, even if it's just for me, like that there's still, there's still a risk that you're taking there. So can you walk us through that a little bit?

Yeah, I mean, we live in a day where, um, you know, everyone is so polished and perfect, and I think this has probably been the temptation of generations before us, but now social media, we're constantly putting up this very polished commercialized version of ourselves. And, and we're all just sick of it. You know, we're, we're secretly sick of it, but we're also secretly playing that game along with everyone else, you know. And so, yeah, so I'm just a big believer that that's just, uh, it's a really bad way to live. And, um, and so yeah, I'm a believer in vulnerability and transparency. I'm a big follower of Brené Brown. I'm sure you're familiar with, you know, Brené. Exactly, Brené Brown. She talks about excruciating vulnerability. And when I heard her say that in context of the story, I thought, Brett, how excruciating can you make this? You know, and, you know, we— I do think potentially maybe you can be too vulnerable and overshare, you know. So, but I really brought that to the table to say, I'm going to try to give you the raw, the most raw version of me and of this story. And I'm not going to try to make everything sound perfect. I'm not going to make myself out to be the hero. I'm not a hero in this story or any other stories for that matter. I am simply a human. And if someone would bring my full humanity to bear within this story, and I'm going to speak my truth as confidently and as honestly as I can. Again, what the listener or the reader does with that after the fact is up to them. And that's not on me. And so I'm just a big believer, you know, I had a colleague told me years ago, Brett, you're not responsible for the emotions of others. You know, and I think my whole life I'd lived so much trying to make everybody around me happy and jump through all the right hoops to get get people to believe, you know, think of me in a certain way. And one of the really beautiful things about being gay is you have to learn to let go of that early on. You know, granted, we live in a society that's way more open than it used to be. But, you know, there are still people, particularly in the American South, where it's a very big issue. It's a very big wall in between you and them. And so, you know, I just learned, you know, Brett, either you're going to live your life trying to appease everyone and put up these facades and these fronts and, you know, or you're going to lean into your truth and just put it out there. And again, do it with integrity, do it with tact, do it with honor. But, but I'm going to do it. And that was, that was part of it. So, yeah, fear is there. I mean, I think the first week after I launched my, my project, I just was walking around my house and it's been this sort of daze, you know, just a cloud of like, you know, sort of the subterranean feeling of, Brett, what have you done? You know, like you have let the genie out of the bottle and you have spent 30-plus years keeping it inside. And not only have you let it out, you know, you let it out on Facebook in front of, you know, 3,000, you know, of your friends. And so, um, but you know what I learned is that it's okay. Like, I survived. And, you know, the apocalyptic scenarios that we all play out of what's going to happen and this person, you know, it just doesn't happen. You know, it doesn't. And, and at the end of the day the smoke clears, you're just fine, and the world kind of moves on, you know. And then here you are left in a healthier state, you know. You're not being crippled by fear and hiding and covering and, you know, creating false, you know, narratives to keep everybody off the trail. And so for me, it's been incredibly liberating. But it took that, uh, I forget the movie, but there's a movie they talk about, you know, I think 20 Seconds of Insane Fear, or I'm sorry, Insane Courage, something like that, you know.

It's We Built This Together. Yes, that's it.

I love that moment.

I love that moment.

Oh, it's so brilliant. And so many challenges in life are on the other side of that 20 seconds. And so for me, that was the pivotal moment of clicking that button and putting that thing out there. And I'm still here, Sally, still breathing. I'm still kicking. All the bad stuff didn't happen.

And I know we know this. We know that on the other side of that risky moment of that 20 seconds of courage are people who might be a different community, but it's a community that knows and appreciates and loves you. And so, like, we sort of know it intellectually, but we don't always trust that. And it's part of what I was so taken by your story and your journey is that you had a lot at stake and in a real way. And anybody who's coming out, I don't know from personal experience, but I have many friends who are gay and they talk about you cannot underestimate that moment. Even when you feel support from people, there's something that is so real and risky there. And so when I, when I think about this audience and we as speakers, like, it's not to equate, it's not the same thing, but we, when we stand up and share who we are, it is a coming out of sorts for anybody in terms of really being authentically yourself and taking away the, like, years and years and years of facades that we have built up because my personal belief, and I just did, I'm doing this whole Speaking Truth series, and one of the truths that I share is that perfection kills connection, and that if connection is the point of speaking, for so many people, perfection is the goal, perfection is the quest, and we're rehearsing for perfection instead of rehearsing for confidence and rehearsing for connection, and it's, we want to relate to the people who are up in front of us. And so, like, the worst thing we can do is put up the facade and pretend, right? Like polish away all the rough spots.

Right. You know, we don't— people don't want perfect protagonists. You know, you are the protagonist of your own story. And if you look at every great movie, the protagonist, that main character, always has a flaw. They're never perfect. I mean, it's part of good storytelling is that, you know, their weakness is what gives the story life and was what makes it interesting and engaging. You know, Superman has a kryptonite. You know, that is, that is his weakness. That is his flaw. You know, so many other characters, you know, in movies you'll see they're dealing with, they're an alcoholic or they're estranged from their children or, you know, and so I think that's what we've got to remember as presenters and as content creators. Bring your full humanity, you know, to the table, because that's really— that's what people want, because it helps them feel less alone and less isolated. And it also just so happens that it's part of a great story. Perfect protagonists never make good stories.

So true. So I know that the experience of, like, you know, you take the risk and you put yourself out there and it's like, it's liberating. It feels great. But But I'm sure there are moments, right, where it's like, okay, I just want to take, take everything back a little bit. It's not a straight path to full liberation and freedom and like, yes, and full empowerment, like for anybody. Speaking for myself, it's like, I know all these things. And yet I still have to push myself, I still have to challenge myself to risk risk, you know, doing the challenging thing that I'm not sure I can pull off. You know, we all are battling these things. So what are things for you that you do that help you overcome whatever those, like, myths are that are bopping around in your head and help you take those really good, healthy creative risks?

You know, Sally, this may sound morose, but I'm going to say it because I believe in it. I think about death a lot. And there are some studies that talk about there's a beneficial effect of thinking about death in a healthy way. You know, I've said it many times. I wrote about it in the blog series. But, you know, we're all dead in 100 years. And granted, most of us will be dead before that. But if we really believe and are in tune with that reality, that 100 years everybody you know is dead, that in one sense, that could be depressing and sad. On the other sense, it can be quite liberating to say, you know what, everything I'm doing is not permanent. And in one sense, it's not that important, you know. And I believe the work I'm doing is important. The work you're doing is— I believe that is true on one sense, but it's a paradox. And so again, if everything is a big deal and everything is permanent, everything has vast consequences, we'll never take risks because we're so gripped by fear of what happens if I mess up. Whereas my approach is, so what if you mess up? You know, like, we get one shot at life. We can either choose to live in fear and, you know, go along with the flow and just sort of be a lemming, or we can say, you know what, I'm going to take some risks. I'm going to put myself out there even when it's uncomfortable, even when it's awkward, even when I don't feel like it. Because at the end of the day, this is all we got. This is our shot, you know. And so, um, for me to sort of acquiesce to that mindset has been very liberating, just to, you know— and I, I, as a person of faith, I do believe in an afterlife. And so, um, I'm just not sitting around, um, constantly, you know, again gripped by fear. We all deal with fear, but I do think courage is not a reflex. I think courage is something that over time you settle into and it becomes more common, it becomes more, or it becomes easy, easier to do. And so it's just a daily reminder of that mindset of, you know, we're just gonna go for it.

Yeah. Ooh, I love that. I remember you talking about that and obviously it was very present in your writing, but there's something really powerful about just saying out loud, we're all gonna be dead in 100 years.

Right, yeah. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it's true. And so what do we do at this time? And don't let the— don't let that stuff get in your way. Just go, go, go, go, dude.

And all the people we're worried about, you know, offending or making happy, they're also going to be dead, you know. Like, think back, you know, 19— you know, the year 1917, 100 years ago, right? New York City, Paris, you know, wherever you are, there are these you know, social clubs and social systems and drama and politics, and all of that just doesn't really matter now, you know? Like, um, for those people, they had their shot and they're done. And so it'll be the same way for us. And so it's just a reminder to, you know, live our, live our best lives and make an impact and do the best we can.

Oh my gosh. Okay, so all I'm thinking about right now is Queen Bernay. Love Queen Bernay. Um, she said, live your best life, let's like Oprah this moment. This is like, we're all— and then I feel like Elizabeth Gilbert is in this conversation as well. Have you read Big Magic? Do you?

I have not. I've heard wonderful things about her and her books.

You would love it. You would love it. It's just, that's the way she talks about fear and the role that fear plays is like, okay, fear is a part of— it's just who we are as humans. But Fear doesn't get to drive. Fear doesn't get to make the decisions. Fear's like in the backseat of the car complaining about the music choices, you know?

Right. But it doesn't get to drive.

But I think you'd love that book. There's some really beautiful—

I'll check it out. Sounds great.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's one of those inspiring books that you read and you're just like, I'm keeping this with me. It's like scribbles all over it and Post-it notes and just— Love it. Keep you on track and motivated and, and, and really enjoying, you know, her thing is that creativity doesn't have to be your, um, life's blood, and, and it doesn't have to be your job, but it— but creativity fuels us, it colors our life, it enriches our life. And so, um, making sure, finding space for that and creating space for that and not letting stupid fear about whether a, I don't know, 40-year-old should learn how to ice skate for the first time. Like, who cares?

Right, exactly.

Go, go do. I just love it. It's very empowering. Anyway, okay, so, um, Brett, I just want to share with you that we got to the end of your story, and you know I don't think I should say it in case people have not read it. Never mind, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. Um, never mind, I will, I will share this little tidbit with you after we stop recording. There's a little tease for everybody.

There you go, check it out.

Read Blue Baby's Pink. Um, so now for you in your life and what you're doing, um, how has this affected you in terms of like, you know, you took this risk and you shared your story in such a very personal and deep and authentic way. And now where are you without giving too much away?

Yeah. Well, you know, this story is something again, I was convinced I was called to share it. For about a decade, you know, with much anticipation and trepidation. I did that. Quite a few people engaged with the story, which was wonderful. But, you know, I never have felt like this is my thing. This is my calling. This is the— I'm gonna spend the next 50 years, you know, writing about, you know, faith, sexuality, shame, loneliness, which were some of the themes that came up in Blue Baby's Pink. And so, but I'm okay with that. You know what? One thing I loved about it is the story did bring in lots of new people into my sort of ecosystem of content creation, for lack of a better term. And, you know, I'm just a big believer in telling stories well. I think a lot of the bad guys out there are really good storytellers and they get a lot of attention. And I think there needs to be more good guys and more good girls, you know, telling great stories that are not divisive, that are unifying, that are inspiring. And so I want to continue to do that in whatever, whatever medium that may be. But I hope to be a person that is engaging and entertaining, you know, the guy that I follow who talks about marketing, he says, "The market is always right." So if you have a good story and if you've got the talent and the chops to put that together, you know, the market will respond, the people will kind of listen and give their ear. And if not, you might not, you know, or it might not be the right timing. And so, you know, there are days when I think, "Brett, this was the best story you had." You're out of bullets, you know. This was it. But I really don't believe that. I feel that some days, but I do believe I've got other stories to tell, new stories to tell that will have hopefully an even bigger impact than this. And so, yeah, I've been enjoying it and have been enjoying engaging with people and with readers and meeting new people. I did a little tour once the writing project was over. I'd heard from so many people and email just gets exhausting. And so I said, you know, I want to meet some of these people who've read this story and have been so kind. And so I basically said, I kind of want to do a book tour, but I don't have a book. So I just said, I'm going to call it the Bookless Tour, and I'm going to go on a book tour without a book, and it's going to be called the Bookless Tour. So I emailed all my people and said, guys, I want to do this thing. I said, I want to visit 5 cities in, you know, about 10 days. And I said, I don't nearly know where to go, but I want to go where you are and where you can actually, you know, find a place for me to speak or, you know, engage with people. And so I put on a fundraiser for a nonprofit here in Atlanta. I said, vote with your dollars, and said, vote for your city, every dollar is one vote. And so we raised about $13,000 for this unbelievable nonprofit called Beloved Atlanta. And, um, so yes, and, uh, me and my friend Ashley, she was my fake book tour manager, uh, we went to— we drove 10 hours to Washington, D.C., 11 hours to Chicago, down to Florence, Alabama, Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia. Those are the 5 cities that sort of raised the most money. And so just had a great time having coffees, you know, and individual kind of hangouts with readers, and also doing some very small kind of intimate speaking things at, you know, coffee shops and whatnot. So, so yeah, it's just, again, we don't need permission to do things we want to do. Seth Godin, who's a guy that I— a writer that I follow— talks about We don't need permission, you know. So, so we grow up thinking that, well, gosh, you know, I want to do a book tour, but I don't have a book. Well, who cares? You know, like, pick yourself, you know, pick yourself to go on a book tour and call it the Bookless Tour. And if nobody shows up, you know, that's on you. But if they do, great, you know. So I've been having a lot of fun with it, taking it a day at a time.

I love it. I love it. I think that is the gift of this time that we're in right now is truly—

yes.

It is up to our imaginations that determines what we can do and what we are capable of. And that kind of thing haunts me a little bit because I'm like, it is so true and I know it. And so it's up to me, like what I've created and what I'm doing and how I'm doing it, it's me. And so if you want to change it, then change it.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, previous generations were, you know, working 14 hours a day to scratch out a living. You know, that's not the world we live in, at least in privileged, you know, America. Like, we are drowning in opportunity. And like, I think, you know, you said our imaginations, our creativity is our limits. And so, yeah, we've just got to go for it.

Hmm.

Cool.

Okay, Brett, it is time for us to do a This Moved Me moment, something that has moved you recently, because I think as creative people, as speakers, we need to stay really in touch with that so that we can keep ourselves really fueled up so we can share that with our own audiences. So I'm gonna jump in and start, and then I'll flip over to you. Does that work?

I love it.

Okay, so I know you mentioned this online too, but of course I'm in the middle of S-Town. Oh yeah. And man, this podcast, I'm so fascinated and interested by it. And, and for anybody who hasn't yet gotten on the S-Town train, um, it's a podcast about a fascinating little town in Alabama. And yeah, so are you familiar with this town? Because you're from Alabama.

I am from Alabama. That is in a different part of the state, and I had never heard of it until this podcast. I heard of Bibb County, which is the, the county where the town is, but never, never Woodstock, which I believe is— yep, the city.

Yeah.

And, and it's one of those— and it's very different from your story, but there's something about the, just the, like, the, the nexus of all these worlds sort of coming together. This reporter from New York coming down and experiencing a totally new culture, and, and a man feeling really like an outsider in his town and, and also really loving his town at the same time. And so it's a really, I think, fascinating deep dive into some people's lives, and, and the storytelling in it And these characters are so fascinating. I'm like, are these people for real?

Right. Yeah. They seem contrived because they're so wonderful.

Right. And so kind of extreme. Yeah. Wow.

And they are.

This is who these people are. And it's so outside my experience. And that is sort of my goal right now is to keep trying to hear people's stories that are really different from mine and keep seeking those out. And so this is a, you know, this is, I don't think necessarily it's like we're finding the universal story of the South. I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, I don't think it's universal. I think it's, I mean, I think everybody who I've talked to who grew up in the South they know people like that.

Okay.

And that story is so driven by that one character, John B. McLemore, who is just this— he is insanely redneck, for lack of a better term. And I say that with the most endearing vibes I can possibly conjure. But he's also brilliant, you know? I mean, I mean, I think at one point he's talking about urinating in a sink, and then like 5 minutes later he's discussing the Pythagorean theorem. I mean, you know, it's, it's unbelievable. But, um, You know, I do think it's sort of a, you know, somewhat of a cliché view of how outsiders would view the South, but you know what reminded me, Sally? Bobette Buster is a writer that I follow and she is sort of a story expert. She consults with movie production companies about, you know, crafting their storyline, and I heard her teach one time about how, you know, good stories invite people into a new world they did not know existed. And, you know, oftentimes you'll see a good story and that's what it does. And that's exactly what S-Town does, is especially for, you know, for someone like you in Minnesota who, you know, you might have never met Dumbie Michelin Man. But the writers of that story, they have invited you in to Woodstock, Alabama. And boy, it is a world that, you know, most people never knew existed. So I think it's a great example of that little story principle.

Cool. Yeah. So If you have not binge-listened to S-Town, anybody listening right now, it is a worthwhile several hours and brings up some really, I think, interesting ideas and ethical questions. And there's a handful of times where I was like, wow, I don't know how I feel about him sharing these things. So I can't say too much more without giving stuff away, but it's— It's just a really good deep dive into our own lives and our own biases and everybody else's too. So it's really interesting.

Yep.

Oh my gosh. Okay. How about you? What's your This Moved Me moment, Brett?

My This Moved Me moment, it came from an article I read on the internet several days ago by a writer named Dina Nayeri. It was in The Guardian. And the title of the article is called "The Ungrateful Refugee." Did you see this, Sally Koering Zimney?

No.

It came out. Okay. Oh, it's— you've got to read it. It's a pretty long read, but it's— every now and then, you know, you come across a story that just shifts how you think about something permanently, you know, and irrevocably. And that's what this was. So Dina basically was an immigrant from— I'm sorry, a refugee from Iran when she— she's now in her 20s or 30s. But she came over as a child. She was a refugee, was sort of settled in Oklahoma. And so she talks about, you know, being made fun of, being, you know, a refugee child. She tells a story of, you know, how her teachers and everyone was constantly telling her, you know, "Boy, you must be grateful to be here. You know, you should be grateful, you know, to be in this new, this new land, you know, of opportunity." But, you know, she talks about how no one ever asks her about her homeland. You know, they never asked her about where she came from. She, you know, over time just sort of feels forced to abandon her traditions and her heritage from Iran. But over time, you know, she kind of learns that she integrates into society and, you know, ends up getting, I think, advanced degrees. She's a fantastic writer. But, you know, it's really tragic to hear her talk about constantly feeling the pressure as a refugee in America of trying to earn the approval of Western culture, you know, feeling almost shame around her heritage, or she's constantly minimizing that, trying to jump through all the hoops, you know, to make everyone around her happy. And even the burden of constantly feeling like, I've got, you know, I've got to be grateful, and I'm so thankful to be here. And, you know, so it was really, and kind of eventually she ends it with talking about sort of being liberated from that shame and from that feeling of, you know, I don't really belong and I'm an outsider, and, um, and has kind of made her way in, in a really beautiful way. And it ends very inspiring. And so again, I think I just now, again, how I view refugees, again, just that sort of privileged mindset of, you know, well, you sure must be thankful to be here in America. Well, no, like, there's other great places around the world as well, and America's great, but so it was just a really inspiring article. It moved me, as you could say. Yeah.

Oh, awesome. I love that.

I will include the link to that article up in the show notes over on the website. And I'm looking forward to reading it. I love stuff like that, that takes their own personal experience. And then through that, we can't help but just see the world a little bit differently. That's what it's all about. Absolutely.

Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening along with us on the Journey series. I am loving bringing back up these incredible conversations, some of them I had years ago, and they're just buried in a pile that is way too big of other great Conversations, but I thought, oh my gosh, as we are really being challenged in the journey right now, I wanted to just super serve you with inspiration, ahas, and all kinds of good stuff. So, uh, the best of the best are coming to you in this journey series. It's going to be so good.

I hope you're loving it.

I hope you're feeling it. And I have for you a quick workbook. That I would love for you to go download.

It's kind of like a study guide for you as you're walking through this.

So you can go to bmoove.com/journey and download this beautiful study guide with some of the key inspiration as we move along, a way for you to capture your ahas, the quotes that have jumped out at you, and how you're going to apply these to your own journey, because really that's what it's all about. Okay, I'm here to empower you, to continue to push you out front so that as you are moving along on this journey, you are doing the big important work. And just reminding yourself, the journey is the there. That's what we're— that's our job right now, is to just be on the journey. So I hope these conversations help you with that.

We've got some—

another one coming up for you that's gonna be fabulous. And I know that 'cause they're all fabulous.

Yes?

All right. This moved me. What's moving you? I can't wait to hear. Hit subscribe so that you do not miss an episode as we stay on our journey together. Reach out on all the socials. See you next time.