240: The Journey Series: Jeff Goins - Embracing Process

Well, hello everybody. Welcome back to This Moved Me. This is Sally Zimney, your speaker coach, and oh my gosh, we are in the middle of the Journey Series, and the Journey Series is all about our journey to be speakers that move our audience, because if we want our audience to be moved, then we also have to be moved because that's how it works. However we show up is really what is possible and what is capable for our audiences. So today on the show, we are on— we're halfway through, we are on the 5th episode in the series, and I'm so excited for you to hear Jeff Goins. Now maybe you have heard Jeff Goins. He's got his own podcast. He has written many books. He is an just an incredible writer. Everything that he puts out there, I'm like, "Oh, that's good. That's good." Jeff is just really, really good at what he does. And today, as a part of this process series, we've been talking about these big ideas. And today's episode is actually about something that is pretty unsexy, I would say, but it is so important. It's called— it's the process. And that is such an essential part of our journey to become better speakers. And one of the reasons I wanted to highlight this episode is that Jeff Goins is one of the most willingly, intentionally thoughtful people that I've ever had the chance to talk with and meet. And he's also really effortlessly inspirational. And that's a really interesting combination, and I think that's what makes this conversation important. When I found his blog, it was before I had really read any of his stuff, and I just kind of happened upon his blog. And about 3 sentences into it, I thought, "Oh my gosh, I gotta get this guy on my show," because he's so reflective and deep and he's open and he's curious, but he's also practical. He's also strategic. And so he advocates for a world that both appreciates art and our ability. He really wants us to own our own ability to be artists of our own making and to name that and do that. And so he's equal parts process and artistry. And I think that combination is really, really important for us. On our journey. Because it's not just about the, like, big beautiful ideas, and it's not just about the strategy and the steps. It really has to be about both. It's how we take those steps. So I find so much inspiration in Jeff's approach and also really important learning. So I'm really excited to share this oldie goodie show with you. Here he is. Jeff Goines. Hey movers, it's Sally Zimney with Be Moved. Let's go create some talks that will move this world. We're going to talk with amazing speakers, share tips, tricks, resources, and we are going to be moved so that our audience can be moved. This moved me. What is moving you? I was laughing because I heard you say once that you looked like Ron Weasley from Harry Potter. I was like, he really does.

Well, I changed my hairstyle now, so, you know, hopefully, you know, that's, that's changing.

Okay. Well, it's not a bad thing. You know, it's like, oh my gosh, you know, you even have sort of his build.

Yeah, I was— well, he's a little bit muscular than me now, more muscular than me, but I have, you know, like, what's the sad truth is that I have the build of a 14-year-old Ron Weasley. Like, the older that he's gotten, the less I resemble him because I look so young. But I was just at a branding workshop and we were talking about how it's really hard to get known for something, and if you're known for something, like, embrace it because it's so hard to even get attention for something.

Right.

And so I think that was one of those situations. Situations where people kept saying, "Oh, you look like Ron Weasley," that I finally just embraced it and sort of, you know, made fun of it a little bit.

Well, to be fair and kind of, you know, equal things out a little bit, people tell me all the time I remind them of Shelley Long.

Who is Shelley Long?

That's awesome. I'm older than you, I think. So Shelley Long, she's not really around anymore, but she's an actress and she played Diane on Cheers.

I know, I know who you're talking about.

Okay, so when I was in this—

I can see that and I can hear that.

Can you? Okay, so I can hear the voice. When I was in the speaking circuit, like in high school, you know, like on the speech team, people— and, and I'd be at like big national tournaments— people would say, you look and sound just like Shelley Long, because she was big in the national speech circuit as well. So I was like You know, yeah. And my family always thought that growing up, we loved Cheers and we would watch Cheers all the time. You're just like Diane, which I didn't always appreciate.

But yeah, she was kind of whiny sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, you know, not so much fun.

But if you were in the same, like, same speaking circuit, I mean, I would just own it and, you know, try to collect her honorariums, you know. Hopefully they were— they were more—

they'll never know. She's like 30 years older than me at this point, but They might figure it out when I show up.

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

I know. So that's very funny. Well, Jeff, um, what I'd love to do is kind of hear your story a little bit. You know, I know your core passion, your core work is about writing. Um, but of course today we're talking about being a speaker. And so can you tell me a little bit about how those two worlds work together for you as you're bringing content out into the world?

Sure. Well, speaking was one of those things that I kind of fell into, I guess the same way I fell into writing, where it wasn't something that I decided that I was going to do. Rather, it was something that I realized I had already been doing and practicing for a long time, albeit somewhat accidentally. So when I finally decided to be a writer, I realized I've been writing my whole life. Now I'm just going to do this professionally and get a bit more serious and dedicated about it. The same thing is true with speaking. I started writing before I started speaking kind of, but when I realized, "Well, writers need to speak and speakers need to write." I once heard a guy named Dan Miller say that. The idea here is partly from an entrepreneurial standpoint. If you want to make a living writing, you've got to get out there and speak about your books so that your books sell and also if you're a speaker, you need to have product on the table or you need to have a book or something to kind of get your foot in the door to give you some amount of credibility so that you have something to talk about. So I understood that those, for a professional communicator which is what I wanted to be, those went together really well. So when I started speaking, I was like, "Well, I'll just try it." I started speaking at some local free technology events because that's what I was doing at the time. I was working in marketing and technology. I was going to these conferences anyway, so I got a free speaking gig. I was just going to try it out and if it worked, great, and if not, I would go do something else. The response was overwhelming. I went back years later and watched that video of me speaking. It's not that good. I'm all jittery because I stayed up the night before putting together slides and then slept in. And then drank like 3 cups of coffee on my way there and was almost late and kind of jittery.

That sounds like a perfect way to approach a talk.

Perfect. But afterwards there were people standing up and applauding and standing in line to talk to me and I realized there was some resonance here. I was like, "Where did this come from?" Then I kind of looked back at previous seasons of my life and realized, well, I acted a lot in high school and college. In college I was part of a fraternity, what we call the Literary Society. We did a lot of debates and I was involved in all of those debates. I love doing that. I acted and directed in college as well, all kind of on the side as a hobby. I realized I've been speaking for 10 years in various capacities. This is a blade that I've been sharpening for years now. I just didn't realize it. I think that's really fun. About any sort of vocation, any calling, any work that you do with your life, I think that often the thing that you're doing in a certain season of life, even without your realizing it, is preparing you for the thing to come. That's certainly the case for me with speaking.

I heard you say once, "Becoming a better speaker makes you a better writer and vice versa." Pull that apart for me a little bit. How do they work together in that way?

I attended a speaking conference. It's still one of the best investments I've made in my craft as a writer, speaker, and communicator. I went to a conference called SCORE, S-C-O-R-R-E. It's a conference that my friend Ken Davis puts on. When I went to this conference for the first time, Michael Hyatt, another friend of mine who's also a pretty influential speaker and online communicator, He was there too. We were both students and we both walked away from it. I was kind of a newbie. I had just done that gig I told you about where people were standing in line afterwards. I was like, "I got to figure this out." I went to this speaking conference and Mike and I were talking over lunch or something towards the end of it and I said, "Hey, what are you thinking about this? How has this been for you?" I knew that he was about to go speak at an event that had like 20,000 people at it or something. So I kind of thought like, "Aren't you sort of above this?" He said, "Man, this is the best thing." He goes, "I've been speaking as a CEO and speaking for corporate events and whatnot for 15, 20 years." He goes, "This is the best thing that I've ever been to. This is changing everything about what I do." That really impressed me, but I felt the same way, but I was kind of a newbie to it. Long story short, I went to that conference 3 times and each time got something else out of it. And what I realized was that communication is communication, that yes, speaking is different from writing in the form and the delivery method and even the visuals. I totally get that. The way that I write isn't exactly the way that I speak, but the method that I use to approach creating content is the same, meaning how I organize content for a blog post, or a book chapter or a keynote speech at a conference or even like a YouTube video, all kind of fits under this method that I learned at this conference, you know, that I've kind of tweaked and made my own since then, but the method is the same. And I think what I know as a writer that I now know as a speaker is most people stand up on a stage or, you know, sit down at their computer and think that communication is just about creating content and pushing it out there. But as we all know from our high school speaking class or communication class where you like have that little graph on the chalkboard or whatever, where there was like communication happened in 3 parts. There was the sender, there was the message, and then there was the receiver. Remember we did all these silly little exercises? And if the receiver didn't receive the message but the sender sent it, like 2 out of 3 of the pieces of the formula were fulfilled, It was not communication. Communication had to be sender, receiver, message received. I think we forget that when we sit down to write or even when we stand up and start talking. We think, "If I just put words out there, it will matter." What I now know about speaking that I also know about writing, and it's the same process for me in terms of how I organize the content, is that great content without organization doesn't equal communication. You have to have really good content and you have to organize it well with sensitivity to the way that the audience is going to receive it in order for you to effectively communicate.

Right. There's so much in here that I want to dig into, especially about this idea of audience, because I think to me that's one of the main differences is, right, you're getting such instant feedback, right, when you're up in front of people and they're, you know, I love that. It's so helpful, especially in terms of an evolving or developing content, because then it can feel so iterative. Right? Versus, you know, when you press publish on a blog post, yes, of course you'll continue to evolve that thinking and, and, and that content, but there's a different sort of finality there.

Yep.

So, um, I, I wanna talk about that, but before we do that, before we move on, I've never heard of the SCORE conference and maybe I'm, I'm under a rock up here in Minnesota, who knows? But, um, tell me a little bit about that and can you share some of the secrets of the how? Like this process that you discovered because if there's something useful there for my listeners, I'd love to be able to pull that out.

Sure. So it's called the SCORE conference, SCORE with two Rs, so it's an acronym for the method, the SCORE method. It's S-C-O-R-R-E. And I don't know if you've been living under a rock or not, in my experience, the best stuff is often the best kept secrets and this is a great secret. It's worth looking into. Like I said, as a speaker, it's definitely the best investment I've made in my craft, hands down, in my career.

This sounds so cool. Thank you for letting me know.

I think what I like about it is the whole point of the methodology is that it's hidden in the speech. If you can see the method, it wasn't organized well. Mm-hmm. And that you can kind of take your unique voice and communication style, whether you tell a lot of stories or have a lot of instructive steps, and you can take your speech and kind of fit it around this method, and it just works. I mean, it just— the ideas stick with people longer, people can walk away with some takeaways. And this is the hard part about communication, is you could have a great story or a great idea, but if you don't know how to communicate it, it's going to fall flat. And I think that the SCORRE method— you know, obviously I'm an evangelist for this— it helps you not do that. And I think, you know, whatever you do, you know, as a speaker, You need to have some way of organizing your content. And if you're one of those people, guys, kind of do my thing, and, and you think you're being as effective as you could be, frankly, I think you're wrong.

Yeah, I'm such a structure person. Yeah, I really love to— for it to be cleanly structured. There's something about that that can settle an audience in, and they are able to just sort of be in the moment with you because they know what's happening, and there's no anxiety about what on earth is this person talking about. So it really just, I think, takes away away all of the— some of the fears that audience can walk into the room with. So, cool. Thank you so much. I will check that out. Okay. Now, I'm going to leapfrog back to what I brought up before about this idea of audience because when you're writing a blog post and/or a book, you're writing for an audience, but it's a very different relationship and, you know, you are literally in the room. With people as, as you're communicating. So how has that, or has that impacted how you develop your content and how it grows and changes and evolves?

Well, I use writing and speaking to sort of, like, collaboratively. They complement each other. And like you said, speaking can be very iterative. So if I have a new idea that's going to eventually make its way into a book I want to be testing that idea in speeches and interviews. I mean, I speak as much online as I do in person, and there's still sort of that live audience feel, whether that's a webinar or a keynote speech. Obviously standing in front of people, seeing them nod or their eyes fill with a tear as you share some melodramatic moment or something.

Of course, yeah.

Getting that kind of feedback is invaluable, but the point is I'm using this kind of communication to test out ideas. See what resonates, keep tweaking them until I'm going to make the bold move to publish them. Then obviously once it's in a book, that in some ways becomes a piece of collateral that can get you booked as a speaker. Once it's in the book, you better have the idea pretty solidified because if you're still iterating and you're delivering the speech and the idea in the book is 5 iterations ago, it's going to be a disconnect. For me, to kind of piggyback on what you said, I love that iterative process of here's an idea and it's probably in the mix of 5 or 6 other ideas in the context of a speech and I'm just kind of floating it out to see how it connects with people, how it resonates, and then if it connects with the audience, I'm going to build upon that. As a writer, one of the things that I work with people a lot on is this idea of finding your voice. Every writer is looking for his or her voice, that unique thing that makes you special as a communicator. I think we misunderstand voice. I think we think that it's like the passion that you have for something that who cares what other people think about it, it's just yours. I think of voice more as resonance, that a writer, a speaker hasn't truly found her voice until she's shared something with an audience and there's been that connection and you can feel that resonance. There's something about that. I have a— musician's past. I used to play with a band and travel. There's something about performing a song in front of people that feels alive that doesn't feel the same when you're playing those same exact notes sitting in your room. I think there's just something about music, about art, about writing, about speaking that you haven't really fulfilled your potential as a communicator until you are creating something that's connecting with other people. It doesn't have to be a stadium full of people. It could be 5 people in your living room. But once you've done that, I think you've found your voice. And the beauty of speaking is, as you said, you can kind of keep tweaking it until you finally find that connection.

I want to just take the last 2 minutes of what you said and carry it around with me in my pocket. I just loved it. I'm totally on board with you there. That's beautiful. Well, Jeff, I mean, what about for you? As you know, my purpose, I feel like my purpose is helping people and creating talks that move the world because I believe in that possibility. So for you, when you think about your voice and those moments where you feel like there's something, there's a connection happening between me and the audience, well, what is your, what do you feel like is your key message that you're bringing out into the world when you're, whether you're writing or speaking?

So, you know, Sally, my experience with this was so personal. And what I mean by that is for years I kind of sat on the sidelines, you know, working a day job that I actually liked. I wasn't like stuck in some cubicle hating my life, but I knew deep down inside that I wasn't doing everything that I was supposed to do. And for me, that really came down to— I knew I was a communicator. I knew that I was supposed to write and speak and maybe a little bit arrogantly I thought the world needed my words, but I think a bit more personally, I just wanted to feel heard. I really think that's a universal desire. It's a need that we all want to feel like what we're doing, what we have to say actually matters. For me, I take it as my quest. To help other people find their voices, realize that what they have to say matters, and that they're going to have to work to find that audience that's going to resonate with their message. So, is this my sole purpose in life? I don't know. I mean, I think there's certainly an area of resonance right now where I'm passionate about this. It's connecting with the needs of others and I feel like I bring both experience and a skill to the table that's able to help people. But for me, it really just comes down to— I think everybody's story matters. Every— everybody has something to say, and people need to learn how to say it well and figure out how they can connect their message with an audience in a way that's going to resonate. And if I can help move people in that direction, I can feel pretty good about what I do when I, you know, go home every, every day after work.

Yeah. Well, one of the undercurrents of everything that we've been talking about today is really about this idea of authenticity, right? Like your voice, what is your voice and your story and your message? And how do we stay true to that in a way that we can feel good about? Exactly like you're saying at the end of the day. And I think it has everything to do with our purpose and that feeling of this is, there's something I'm supposed to be doing. There's something that, you know, whether you wanna say you're being called to do or whatever drives you, to bring that out into the world. But I think authenticity is such a tricky concept, right?

Yeah, it is.

I've been studying it. I did, you know, parts of my grad school work was about it, and I still feel like there's things to dig in. And for you, it's one of the things that drew me to you and why I wanted to have you on the show is I feel like you do, you have found in all of the noise, the online noise, you found a way to sort of carve out this voice for yourself that does feel really authentic. And, and that's part of your advice for people in this quest that you have. So there's no easy way to do that. What, what was— what is the best thing that you can tell people in terms of maintaining or finding your authenticity?

So I think it's a tricky word, as you've clearly admitted, Sally, and With respect, I would say that we probably need to not try to be authentic. What I mean by that is it's such a buzzword right now. Everybody's either trying to be authentic or they're saying they're being authentic. But the reality is how do you know and what does that mean and to what degree ought we be authentic? I think there is a fine line between being your true self, sharing your true self with the world in some way, and oversharing. So there are lots of things every day that I don't share about myself online. I joke with my tribe, with my online community, that your brand isn't everything about you. You aren't your brand. You have a brand. I believe that you have a brand. I believe that we're all creating impressions and we need to own those impressions. You are not a brand. A brand is a very simple, shareable version of an idea. In a way, it's a story or a piece of your story that other people tell for you. Because of that, it has to be very simple and memorable. You're a very complicated person, so we can't share all of you with the world because there are parts about you, there are parts about me that we don't fully understand ourselves. What does that mean in this quest for authenticity? I think really what people want is they want a voice that they can trust. And we don't want a politician that's going to lie to us, right? Sadly, we've sort of— that's become synonymous in a lot of cases. So, we don't want to be lied to. We don't want to be deceived. We don't want somebody to tell us something that we know isn't true. So, you can't live outside of your true self, but I do think you have a responsibility as a communicator to find that resonance. In other words, what is the thing that's true about you that connects with somebody else's need? I often joke. Look, I'm very passionate about avocados. I love making guacamole. I have intentionally not built a platform on guacamole. Now you'll see me joke about it on Twitter and I think I even have it in a bio somewhere, but it's like a joke. I'm not known for being the guacamole connoisseur. That's not my thing. Now that is a part of me. I make homemade guacamole 2 to 3 times a week sometimes. It's an important part of my life. I make guacamole sometimes as much as I write. And yet it's not something that connects with most of my audience. It's not the hill that I chose to die on, so to speak. So I think we have to be very careful when we use this word, but I would rather exchange authentic with helpful or authentic with just honest. There's a difference between me going, "Ah, here's all of my— like I fought with my wife last night and I didn't take a shower this morning." There are some people that that works for them. They're intentionally connecting with a certain kind of audience, maybe who is struggling with cleanliness issues or something. That's not my deal, right? Hygiene is not my deal. I mean, it's my deal. I like hygiene, but it's not my hill. I think that we need to be really careful with this word because it's become watered down where really it just means you're saying edgy stuff to get attention. That's not the same thing as just being a helpful, honest person. As an audience member, as a customer, as somebody who doesn't want to be lied to. I just want somebody who's going to be honest with me and is going to try to help me. I don't need you to tell me everything about your life.

Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. What I'm thinking about is when I'm working with speakers, we have to demystify so many ideas about what you're supposed to be. And as a speaker, I'm supposed to be like this, and I'm supposed supposed to be like that. And it just takes so long to untangle that mess and say, no, you just need to be you. And, and it's such a freeing idea, but people are— it's, it's scary for people in a lot of ways because there, then there are no rules, right? And the map kind of gets thrown out. Um, but I completely agree with you, the, the tendency to overshare in this using the idea of authenticity as, "Well, you see, I'm being authentic and so that makes it okay." What I mean by that is don't be selfish.

Like if you're using your stage as a means of bringing more attention to you and your issues, that's selfish and that's not a good use of your platform, whatever that might be, a podcast, a blog, or a stage full of, you know, in front of an audience of hundreds of people. Don't be selfish. Go out of your way to make other people feel comfortable. And so when you see a speaker, I mean, I see this all the time, I'm sure you do too, Sally. When you see two speakers on two different stages and one person is telling you how awesome they are and how you can be awesome too, they're not doing as good of a job as the person who's saying, "Look, here are some broken things about me. Here are some struggles that I have had and still do have." but here's the hope that I've seen. Here is my story of redemption or success. I mean, you can talk about success, but it always has to come from a place of failure. We may not be able to recognize this, but when really effective communicators, one of the first things they do when they get on stage, if they're good, is they tell some sort of self-effacing story or they deliver some joke or they do something, even make a mistake that makes them look bad. Because what happens, I mean, it's a very strategic thing. It's not manipulation, or at least it shouldn't be. It can be, I guess, but if they're doing it right, what they're doing is they're saying, "See, I'm human." And if you don't make that connection, then people can't connect with you. And in a way, the irony is that's not a very authentic thing to do because you're sort of going out of your way to go, "Here's my stuff." my issues. There's a selfish way to do that where it brings attention to you and there's a selfless way to do it where you're saying, "Look, I'm human. I don't have this all figured out, but I want to help you with what I do know." What that makes you is it makes you a trusted guide where you all of a sudden are not the hero of the story. You're basically making your audience the hero. You're trying to lead them to a place that they can't get to on their own. At least that's what I think good effective communication is supposed to be like. The authenticity factor is really trying to be helpful and honest about yourself in a way that makes the audience feel comfortable. Good speakers who know how to do that win.

You know what, Jeff? I was just watching you and as you said, a trusted guide, that to me totally describes you up on stage. I just want to acknowledge that because that clicked for me. I was like, "Yeah, that's your thing." very grounded, you're very clear. So that's your thing. You're a trusted guide, Jeff.

Well, thanks.

Write that down somewhere. Put it up on a, I don't know, bumper sticker that you can look at forever, because I think that kind of sums you up. So I like to end my podcast with a This Moved Me moment. Could you share your This Moved Me moment for us for this week?

Well, it might be against the rules, but I kind of have two.

Okay.

I wrote a blog post a little while ago. I'll send you the link for all this stuff. Yeah, that'd be great. We can share it in the show notes. But it was basically about why we need art. This is something that I'm pretty passionate about. As practical as I am, I just believe in the cultural importance of art and creativity. I mean, that goes from— for me, that means having a great business that serves the needs of your customers. It means delivering a great keynote. For an audience and it means writing a great blog post. All of those things to me are art because they're taking a gift, a creative gift, and sharing it some way with the world. Anyway, two things I encountered the other day that sort of inspired this blog post. One was I was on Facebook or something and I came across this cover song on YouTube. Somebody shared the video on Facebook., and it was a cover song of Glen Hansard's song Falling Slowly, which is from the movie Once. And I love, I love the Glen Hansard version of it. It's just, it's amazing. And I think I like this one better.

Wow.

And I watched it, I've watched it a bunch of times. It's gotten like a million views or something. And it was, it's just this, this, this guy and this girl. He's got an acoustic guitar. They're sitting next to each other. There's a microphone in front of them and they just perform the song. There's something really like— it does feel authentic and I think the irony is it was probably rehearsed and rehearsed and practiced, but it kind of feels like they just sat down, they pulled up this mic and they played. I mean, it's so crisp. It's so beautiful, this beautiful rendition of this song. It just moved me. I just watched it and it moved me. Then like a day or so later, I saw this— I saw an episode of— of all shows, I saw an episode of The Walking Dead, which I'm a huge fan of, but we're talking about beauty and when you think of beauty you might not think of zombies.

Nope.

There's a part in one of the most recent episodes where they're at this hospital and there's this doctor who's kind of this obviously white-collar, refined guy who remembers a time when there weren't zombies roaming the world destroying everything. He has a priceless piece of art, a Caravaggio, I think is how you say it. It's an Italian Renaissance painter. He's got it in his office and he tells this girl, one of the other characters, he said, "I found this abandoned on the street as if it were trash." He says, "It doesn't have a place anymore. Art isn't about survival. It's about transcendence, being more than animals, rising above." Then the other character says, "Can't we do that anymore?" and he goes, "I don't know." That's just kind of the end of the scene is they pose this question like, "We've lost our humanity. Is there any need for art anymore?" It made me realize— there's this juxtaposition of I saw this beautiful video because I don't live in a zombie apocalypse. I saw this show that basically said when we lose all of the refineries of culture, our refined things that give us the privilege to have things like art, is there any place for it? And, you know, the implicit message is yes, like we can't lose art because if we lose art, we lose our humanity. If we lose the things that move us, we lose the things that make us human. And I think that's why that spoke to me.

Awesome, Jeff. Thank you. I love both of those and I would be thrilled to share them, link back to your blog post about the importance of art because I remember it. It was a good one. So great. My This Moved Me moment is I stumbled upon this whole series of videos about Stuart Scott, who you probably know. He, he was an ESPN guy and he was a broadcaster and had been battling cancer for several years and passed away, I think, early January. Well, I remember hearing about it, but not really I'm not a big sports person, so I didn't have any context for the meaning of this at all. Well, somehow I stumbled upon his accepting of the award for— I think it's Arthur Ashe Award on the ESPYs. And then from there— and it's a beautiful video, especially knowing that he passes away some months later. But the one that I really was like, oh my gosh, was the original Arthur Ashe Award went to a sportscaster named Jimmy V. And he's got this amazing, just like a 7-minute talk as he's accepting this award where he knows that he's— it's like stage 4 cancer. He knows he's going to die really soon. And he kind of slowly makes his way up on stage and then gives this impassioned talk where he's just like— they're telling him he's out of time. He's like, I'm going to die. I don't care about your out of time. I don't care about your blinking light back there. Like, I've got something to say and I'm going to say it. And it's just amazing because, I mean, that's kind of who he is from what I can tell. He's this really passionate sportscaster and These messages obviously like completely transcend the arena of sports, but, um, it's, it's awesome. And I'll put it in the show notes so that, uh, people can find it because it just made my day yesterday. I was like, yeah, never give up.

So it's cool. I'm gonna check that out.

Yeah, good. That'd be great. Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening along with us on the Journey Series. I am loving bringing back up these incredible conversations, some of them I had years ago, and they're just buried in a pile that is way too big of other great conversations. But I thought, oh my gosh, as we are really being challenged in the journey right now, I wanted to just super serve you with inspiration, ahas, and all kinds of good stuff. So the best of the best are coming to you in this journey series. It's gonna be so good. I hope you're loving it. I hope you're feeling it. And I have for you a quick workbook that I would love for you to go download. It's kind of like a study guide for you as you're walking through this. So you can go to bmoove.com/journey and download this beautiful study guide with some of the key inspiration as we move along, a way for you to capture your ahas, the quotes that have jumped out at you, and how you're going to apply these to your own journey, because really that's what it's all about. Okay, I'm here to empower you, to continue to push you out front so that as you are moving along on this journey, you are doing the big important work. And just reminding yourself, the journey is the there. That's what we're— that's our job right now is to just be on the journey. So, I hope these conversations help you with that. We've got some— another one coming up for you that's going to be fabulous. And I know that because they're all fabulous. Yes? All right. This moved me. What's moving you? I can't wait to hear. Hit subscribe so that you do not miss an episode as we stick on the journey together. Reach out on all the socials. I'd love to hear from you. See you next time.