247: Jenn Whitmer on Speaking and the Enneagram

Oh, hey everybody! I have been obsessed with the Enneagram since I first discovered it many, many years ago, and my guess is you have been too because it is very hot topic these days. And are— if you like me, do you take Enneagram quizzes all the time? Yes, I do too, and I'm a 7. Heyo! Hello, 7s! High fives! And so I thought it would be fun on the show today to bring in an Enneagram coach and expert. Her name is Jen Whitmer. She is a conflict and communications coach who uses the Enneagram as a tool to help us thrive in our relationships, in our organizations, in our teams, and through our challenges, which is really important because we as speakers, we need that kind of self-knowledge to help us get where we want to go. So let's do it. Hi everybody, I am Sally Koering Zimney, your virtual speaker coach here at Be Moved, and I help purpose-driven entrepreneurs and changemakers like you utilize speaking in their business so they can grow their impacts and and their influence. So together we are going to help you unleash your authentic voice, step on stage with courage and clarity, so that you can finally leave self-doubt and obscurity in the dust. That sounds pretty good, I think. Um, so if you are joining us for the first time, or you are here with us live, or you are finally, uh, catching up with us, I'd love for you to hop in the comments, say hello, hit that subscribe button, do all the things that you're supposed to do, you know, because you don't want to miss any more videos. And this one is gonna be awesome. I'm so excited because what I have to tell you is that our work as speakers always starts with knowing ourselves. It does. It is so, so important. And so I'm really excited to bring Jen Whitmer on the show with us. Jen is a fellow and you'll learn more about that. If you have no idea what we're talking about right now, that's okay too, because Jen is going to enlighten us and help us discover what all of this means. And Jen also just recently completed my Signature Talks Studio experience. And here's what I want you to know about Jen. She absolutely shows up for her audience, which is something that I talk about a lot. I'm always talking about it. That is a mantra for me. And Jen is, is so dedicated, works really hard to show up and serve and love her audience. And what I think is really special about Jen's approach is that she is truly equal parts educator and inspirer, motivator. Um, she has mastered that, and, and you'll hear more about Jen and her background. She was a teacher for a long time, and so you You learn from Jen, but you also get inspired by Jen. And so I'm really excited to have her on the show and to help us understand ourselves as speakers a little bit more so that we can really get through our challenges. Because the work and the process of being a speaker is not easy. It is a personal development experience. So if you think you're just here to learn skills, haha. Fun little surprise for you. The process of becoming a more moving speaker is the process of a personal development journey. It really is. And so Jen is here to enlighten us with the Enneagram tools. I'm going to bring her on screen. Hi, Jen!

Hey, Sally! Hi!

Thank you so much for being here. Oh, Jen, speaker trainer, educator. You are going to help us discover a little bit more about ourselves so that we can utilize that knowledge as speakers.

Yeah, so I'm excited.

I know, me too. So excited. So Jen, let's start with this. Um, I shared a little bit about you, but is there— share with us a little bit more about your history and how you got to be embracing the Enneagram as a tool in conflict.

Yeah. Oh, well, since we don't have time for documentary length film, so I started my career as an educator. Um, I was always teaching, and even as a young kid and did mentorship, you know, like when I was in high school, I had junior high girls that I mentored. You know, I've always loved that type of interaction with people. And I did like, we called it PLUS, peers listening, understanding, and sharing in my junior high. And like, so I had this conflict resolution training really early and I actually really don't like conflict. So I kind of thought, oh, that's it. I had my training. I'm done.

And here you are now, a conflict coach.

I know, I know. It's really crazy. So, um, I became a music teacher. That's how I started my career. And then I moved into administration as a faculty leader and leading in training. So at the same time I was experiencing this really difficult professional failure and, um, just awful toxic circumstance, really. I was also rediscovering the Enneagram. And, uh, for those of you who are like 'Ennea-what?' We've said it so many times already. I'm still like, 'What is this thing?' So I will— I'll come back to my story, but I'll tell you, the Enneagram is a personality framework. It's a tool that helps us understand what our deep motivations are and how we see the world. So we'll go more into detail, but so you have an idea of what the Enneagram is, that's what it is. And so at that time, I rediscovered the Enneagram. The first time I was introduced to it was in college, but I was part of a freshman emerging leaders group, and we were very into Myers-Briggs, and we all did the Myers-Briggs. And our, um, one of the other, like, hey, you should also look into the Enneagram. And he showed us this, like, grid that was a purple mimeographed copy of the old mimeographed sheet that had been copied. And I was like, yeah, I don't do that.

Yeah, it seems a tad outdated, perhaps.

Yeah. That looks complicated, and I like fun, so I'm gonna go over here where we all understand. And I just didn't know what it was. And so rediscovering the Enneagram during this difficult time was incredibly helpful, like I said, because it's about the core motivations, this root issue that we may or may not have, um, in the, in the situation that we're facing. So when we walk into a situation, I come with a perspective that I can't really change. And so I can only figure out what do I do with that. Yeah, what do I— what do I need to approach things, or how can I approach things differently to get my needs met, to support the people around me, to build community, to resolve conflict, all of those things. And, um, there are some of our perspectives that we can absolutely change, but the Enneagram teaches us that there are some root things that we're going to kind of rub up against a lot, and we're going to keep coming back to, oh, why do I keep doing that thing? What is that about? And that's what the Enneagram shows us. So that is how I ended up, um, doing this work. So I did peacemaking training, and I did a grad degree, and I became a certified coach so I could really use all of those skills to help us live whole peaceful and joyful lives. That's really where I want to help people grow, and so that's what I do.

I love it, love it. I love all those words: joy, fulfilling, peaceful. Ah, let's just cuddle up with our warm covers and think about peace and joy.

Ah, you don't have to do any work to get there, and that's the best part.

Let's just ignore the bad stuff. Oh, is my 7 showing? I know, right? Totally. Okay, so we've talked a little bit already. I said I'm a 7. I just, I called you out for being a 7, um, just because I know you, so I know that you are, and we— you've told me that. Um, but what, what on earth are these numbers? And, and I say this knowing Obviously it's hard to kind of just encapsulate all of this really quickly. So, you know, is there a way that you can kind of give us the highlight of these 9 types? Absolutely. I'm sure you've done this a lot.

So one of the things I really appreciate about the Enneagram is that there's not a lot of things to remember. It's wisdom and learning. I don't have to memorize, like, what are my letters? As much as I can tell you I'm an ENFP, ENTP, and I love, and I know those things, or my 5 top strengths, and I love those, or I'm a high I, and you know, all those other personality tools. I mean, I love those things. Um, but what's great about the Enneagram is that it shows us in a circle. If you can imagine in your mind on a podcast, a circle, um, and there are like a clock, but instead of 12 numbers, there are 9. And at the top of the clock is the 9. So the Enneagram shows us 9 different ways of being in the world, and they all have shades and variants. So like if Sally and I— and they go by numbers, so it's 9, 1, 2, all the way around the circle. And the types are called by their numbers. And I like that because sometimes it's just easier to remember, oh, this number. You might not know what it means until you dig and you start learning and working with your— and doing what we call Enneagram work. But you don't have to remember, am I the enthusiast? Am I the epicure? Am I the helper? I don't, you know, like all these different words. So the numbers help us just identify the different types. And Sally's a 7 and I'm a 7, and Sally might be a bright pink 7 and I might be a dark fuchsia 7. So there's still even shades and variants within the numbers. It's not just like you're this thing. The other thing I really appreciate about the Enneagram is it's not static. It's not you're this thing and you never present differently. You never face a situation that makes you behave differently. The idea is that we're always still trying to get that core root need met, but we're not— but we do that in different ways when we're being really healthy or we're not being so healthy, or we've got some behaviors on either side of us. The numbers that are on either side of us kind of influence us through culture and family origin and behaviors. And, um, so we kind of have some flavor of the side numbers. And so that's what I really like about it. It's not just this, okay, you always behave in this way. It's, oh, in this circumstance, you trying to get this core need met, you're gonna look a little bit differently, but you're always going for this one thing. So, um, I like to start with 8s, not to confuse everybody, but I start with the 8. So, um, the 8 and the center of intelligence that we call the gut center, and 8s are super powerful. They are strong. They are the leaders and they are really going for not wanting to be vulnerable. They are trying to protect. That's their passion. 9s are looking for peace at all costs, internally and externally. So they're still in this. What we often call also the anger triad, but they really go to sleep to that anger and just like, not going to be angry, just not going to happen. Always looking for peace. And then Wands are the last group in that anger triad, and they are often called the perfectionists. They are always wanting things to be good and right and ideal and reformed in the best way. And so they often experience anger in the form of resentment. And so that's that group. They all experience anger and are looking for justice and respect and what's right in different ways. And then we move on to what we call the heart center. And the heart center starts with twos, and twos are always looking for helping people. And they can be— the downfall of the two can be that they're trying to help people in order to earn somebody's love. And so they're always inserting themselves to help other people, and they're looking for The idea that you are loved without having to do anything for anyone else. And then we move to the 3s, who are often called the Achievers. And 3s, um, also kind of put their feelings in a box so they can make sure that they're looking like whoever else in the room wants them to look. They kind of morph and change to be what you want me to be and, and really achieve. And, and they're very into efficiency and What they want to know is that they can be loved without having to be the best. They don't have to achieve and be the best all the time. And sometimes when 3s start to learn that, it kind of like, what? I don't have to be the best? That kind of blows their mind a little bit. And then 4s are this very deep emotional group in the heart center, and they are, um, really struggling with being special. That's the word for fours. Sometimes it's unique, but when I listen to fours, they talk about being special. Now, we all want to be special, but fours have a different level of that, and they, um, sometimes think that everybody else has this thing that they're missing out on. And so they experience the world through their emotions in this really deep way. And the heart center all deals with shame in some way. They're trying to overcome shame. Through helping people, through achieving, through creating something. They're all managing shame in some way. Then we move to the head center. So in the head center, we start with 5s, and 5s are the researchers. They are the thinkers, and they are also the most introverted number on the Enneagram. They're the most internal in their mind. And I always say that 5s speak in paragraphs, so it takes a really long time to get there. Like, there's a lot of space, and then they start talking in paragraphs. And they are always trying to make sure that they have enough resources. And if somebody asks too much of them—

I've got my husband.

I have to hold my resources.

Oh, the 5.

So fun.

So fun. Okay, yes.

So then we move on, um, to 6s, and the 6s are always preparing. They're incredibly loyal, and but their mindset is to make sure that everything is gonna be okay, and looking for not necessarily catastrophic worst-case scenarios, but that idea that there could be something that happens. What's the next shoe that's gonna drop, and how do I prepare to make sure that doesn't affect me and my people. Um, so they're, they're great planners in that way, but they struggle with— some people say anxiety, but I heard an Enneagram teacher that I appreciate, and he said it's more angst. And that kind of gets at the depth of the 6, of dealing with this angst. And then 7s are always looking for the next big adventure.. And sometimes that is internal in their mind, and sometimes that is literally like, you know what, I'm just hopping on a plane. I have, I don't know a 7 that doesn't have a passport. Like, why would you not? Like, we're ready to go. Um, and so I don't have a passport, Jen.

I'm your first 7.

I'm, you know what? You're the exception that proves the rule. Um, and so we as 7s are looking for um, not wanting to experience being trapped in pain. And so looking for the good things, looking for what's next, is to avoid being trapped in pain. Yeah. And so the 5, 6, 7s all deal with the emotion of anxiety. So, and what do we do with our anxiety and how do we cope with it? What I didn't say up front is that you're probably like, well, I kind of experience of those numbers, which we do. But there is something that if you're new to the Enneagram, if you were listening to one that may have hit you like, wait, that one hits a little too close to home. And that's, that's the one that's deeper for you. We all, we all want to be loved without having to achieve, and we all want to not be so vulnerable and protect our people. We all want, like, we all want those things, right? But there's a depth to each number that really needs that at a core level, and that is what's motivating the majority of their behavior most of the time in some shape or form. So that's a super fast but really good—

and every time I hear it, you know, and I, I've loved the Enneagram for a long time, I hadn't done the work on it. I haven't like gone super deep on it, probably because I'm a 7, you know, And that sounds not as, like, not as much fun as just, like, reading about it and being like, oh, fun, interesting, oh, I like that, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, yes. Um, so I think, you know, I, I, and working with speakers over the last 20 years, it is a personal development journey. I know you know this. You're— you help other people in your ignorance. We're all in it. And I think that that is a reality that we just— we, we have to own and accept and go on that journey, um, because there's such a parallel how we show up on stage and our, our willingness to show up and be vulnerable. To, um, to really empathize with our audience, to kind of commune with their struggles, is all about our own ability to do all of those things. And so it is, it is, it puts you through the wringer in the best of ways. We have to become better, more evolved, um, deeper, more thoughtful, more intentional people if we want to be a moving speaker. And so, um, lean into your strengths.

Know where you're gonna get tripped up, you know, like, oh, I need to be careful of this thing, but I can lean in here. Um, and that is what makes you authentic. Like, you're not— you're not an imposter at that point. You don't have to, um, pretend to be something that you are not.

Absolutely. So I, I think it's both of those things, right? Really appreciating and understanding the natural gift that you are bringing to this moment, but also really knowing in the same way that we are always trying to evolve as humans, it's gonna— we're gonna face that same challenge as speakers. So I'm thinking of It's my husband and he would totally acknowledge this, but he is brilliant. He's a 5 and he's, he's just brings so much insight and knowledge and he's done, he discovers all kinds of things. So when I'm doing content development, I'm always like, hey Andy, um, have you heard of like, what's a good data piece or a good piece of evidence or a good book or a good, you know? And he's like, oh, check this out, or go do, you know. So he's just so thoughtful and researched and deep around that. Um, but where, as I've coached him over the last 20 years, I'm really taking the veneer off and letting people see the vulnerable side. And not being seen as capable all the time is a really hard thing.

Meaning that, I mean, a 5, to say that they are incompetent or incapable, that is like the death for a 5. Yeah, so that is— that's work.

And you know, yeah, but the process of, of, of opening yourself up to the possibility of sharing a failure, sharing a struggle, which is a really important thing for us to do as leaders That is like, I'm gonna be real picky about which failure I share. Yeah. And which is, which is fair, but, but that's his journey, that's his, and we're all on it. So if when you think about speakers and the Enneagram, yeah, what are especially— I know we've got the like, um, heart center the gut center, the head center. What are some things that we as speakers can keep in mind or look out for as we're looking to embrace our strengths and also lean into our challenges?

Yeah, so, um, again, I'm going to start with the 8s again. One of the things that 8s do really well is because they're like the leader. Sometimes they're nicknamed the boss. They're the ones who are in control. So their speak style is bold statements, and so, which you can really lean into as a speaker as long as it doesn't become teasing, like in a, in a, in a way that's like, I know better than you.

Gotcha.

So if you come in with a bold statement as a speaker, as a speaker that brings your audience in and surprises them, that works really well. If you come in at a bold statement as a speaker that's like command and control, hand on hips, I'm gonna tell you what's going on, you're not inviting your audience in.

Yeah, defenses are gonna go up.

Yes, they're like, oh my gosh, now I'm defensive. And so the challenge for the 8 is to lean into the good bold statement But also later, allow yourself a little vulnerability. That is a deep fear for the 8. And make sure that you're sticking to your purpose in your speech, not just kind of making railing judgment statements one after another, because 8s are often the people who are fighting for justice. They're often the ones fighting for the underdog, and they are deeply passionate about that. And so they kind of vacillate between passion and anger, and those are the emotions that they bring forward.

Those are really close.

They are really close, but there's a whole range of other emotions available. There's more. And so besides being just a little bit vulnerable, that's where the vulnerability comes in, using another emotion to connect with your audience, it's really powerful for 8s. Um, 9s seem so different than 8s even though they're right next to each other. For 9s, their talk style can really be like this pleasant peacemaker, and they can be so gentle that your audience disappears. Because it's what 9s often do in their life is merge into other people's ideas. And so what they need to do as a speaker is have a point of view. So one of the things you talk a lot about is not just have the topic, but your take on the topic. You say that all the time. That is an incredible important thing to remember for 9s. Lots of people can do it, but for 9s in particular, because You need to have a point of view. And if you're a 9 listening, it's probably a little uncomfortable.

You just were like, but wait, that's some people.

I know. So having a point of view is really important. And one way for 9s to do that might be to say something like, you might think blank, but I need you to think this, or I need you to feel this, which helps a 9 feel like they're not leaving anybody out. Like, I've acknowledged what you might think, right? But here's my point of view.

Yeah.

The other thing for 9s is they can be storytellers that meander, and you're like, where are we going?

They're really enjoying their little walk down memory lane.

So finding— editing your story is really important. Overnight is the point of that. So yeah, so then Wands, their speaking style, um, can be an incredible teaching style. When it gets unhealthy, it's when it moves into kind of moralizing, because they so want things to be perfect, they begin to almost do that negative preachy feel. Not the teaching fantastic speakers that are preachers, but like the preaching at me with that negative connotation. And so, um, that's a really important piece for ones to remember in just their style, that thinking about, am I bringing people along to educate or am I finger wagging? That's an important idea for ones to— what am I doing? Uh, the other thing that's really important for ones, and another number later, is that ones can get so lost in details. Like all the details of the process, all the details of the story, all the— like, people need about half of the details that a 1 needs, so maybe two-thirds. So when you're, when you're forming your talk or your stories, we all want the details that connect emotionally, like those are important, but you probably need less than what your audience thinks. Well, but I So I, I don't know if Elizabeth Warren is a 1, but you know, when she goes into super process, that's— and if people are like, unless they're a policy wonk that is really fascinated by that, you lose your audience. So the difference between a talk and a training is also really important for 1s to remember.

Oh, I love that. That's great.

So for 2s, Their speak style is so warm. A lot of twos just, you just feel so hospitable even to their audience. They're like, oh, we're like in your home. Like they could be super warm and draw people in. Where they can get into trouble is they move into flattery. Like, oh, you all are the best audience. But then it becomes too much and people are like, I mean, what are you going to sell me? It starts to feel slick, right? And flattery. And the Twos don't always realize that. So stick with the warmth and hospitality and not so much making sure that the audience feels so good so they like you, right? Because that's what that's about. Totally.

Totally.

They're like, um, so the other thing that Twos can really like pop into that's unhelpful for them is sentimentality. Like they can be overly sentimental and, and lose the, the real point and structure and authority that they have. So really leaning into your authority as a 2 is an important part of being a strong speaker.

I love that. I love that. Yeah, I think anytime we're more concerned about being liked than being effective We risk, um, we risk like losing our own voice in it and not saying what our audience needs or what will serve them, which is a really easy trap to fall into.

Oh, 100%. And Qs are doing it in real time, like they're feeling the audience's emotions. And so when they— if they don't feel connected to the audience. They're going to start overly flattering to try to pull the audience in if they're not confident in their authority and that they're going to get them in. So, um, and then we move on to 3s. And what's— 3s are probably the most natural public speakers. They could just stand up, put a microphone in their hand, and they're good. They're that kind of person.

Yeah.

Um, 3s and 7s are the most naturally just in their personalities, public speaking is not a hard thing for them. Now, they may have difficulties and challenges, but they're not typically afraid of it, right? And so for 3s, they really can woo their audience because they know already what the audience needs, and they'll be what the audience needs. What can trip them up is when they move so far into that that they become self-promoting. And it like moves from being the person the audience needs in the moment to, look how great I am that I am what you need. And it shifts focus back to themselves a little bit, and it starts to become— so the 2 can move into like flattery and feel insincere. The 3 just feels like, I mean, you are a used car salesman with a microphone if they move far into that. And that's really where they need to be careful. And so Um, especially 3s as leaders need to kind of get over the idea that it's okay that you're not the best in the room. There may be somebody else on your team or in your audience that knows more, and that's okay. Like, kind of, it's okay that you're not the best, which is really hard for a 3 to hear. But, um, then you can really serve your audience well because you're not trying to puff yourself up and buy into your own hype. You can just be who you really are, right? And, and be authentic with your audience.

And, um, is it, is it accurate to say like 3s have to really work on letting go of the result of it? That it's— yes, it's like you're just here for the moment and you can't worry about what the emails are gonna say or what the, um, you know, whether or not they stand up at the end or those things that that a 3 would really cherish. Yes.

Yeah, they have to release that before they go out there and meet with their audience. The other thing that 3s need to be careful of is to make sure that your stories and your promises are really rooted in some truth. Like, they can make up a story so fast that it fits, but then it, it doesn't have a root, and so it kind of feels like this balloon. It's like this— it's shiny, it's pretty, but it doesn't quite— yeah. And so that's really important for a 3 as well.

There's some really big integrity stuff in there, just like what is grounding you and to let that tether you to something real.

Exactly. And the reality for 3s is also tapping into their own emotion about it. Because they're fine showing you your emotion about it because that's what you think that you need to— like, I'll show you what you need, but what's my emotion? They have to do some work often to even figure out what that is, and then that work is what really grounds them. Wow.

Into that equity.

Okay, so 4s— 4s talk style, it's so personal. Like, they have such a, uh, you're like, I know you immediately. They're storytellers, and, um, in a way that can just woo people in. And if they're not careful, because their natural bent can be toward, um, really melancholic almost, they can be melancholy and be really happy in that. They can move the lament. Like, their stories can just be lament, and not every speech needs all the lament. Some of them do. Like, you need to get to like, I'm a, you know, like, but like, that difference between wooing people in with genuine real negative emotions and being okay with that, right, to sitting in it so long that your audience is like, I'm uncomfortable. And so when you talk about the ones that your audience needs about half the amount of detail, we're talking about 4s, they probably need half the amount of sadness, like they need half the amount of lament. Please show it, we need it, and we need the 4s to lead us there. Yes, yes. But we're not always as adept at staying there as you are.

Yeah.

And making sure that we're— the 4s are bringing us in in that way.

We, we both— we know a 4 and Um, she's the first Four I've ever met that I was like, oh, I see now, I see the whole range of emotions. Oh yeah, like 5 minutes. Yes, amazing.

And that is how Fours are interacting with the world. They are connecting with the world through their emotions first.

And then they're thinking about it. It's incredible. Yeah. The excessive—

They have this amazing gift that they can be so emotionally present. Yeah. And then sometimes it can go too far. I mean, I, I watch that and I'm like, whoo, that would be exhausting. Yeah. Well, and it's— Fours, we're getting into all of this, but Fours are also in what's called the dependent stance, who really struggle with doing sometimes. And that's why it's exhausting to feel like that. Yeah, which is why— yeah, so I mean, you feel so much compassion, and we need them to slow us down. We need them in our world to really slow us down, to feel for real, because lots of us are super happy to move past whatever that emotion was and just get on with it. And of course you're like, but wait, like pulling on Well, they recognize the—

so here's a gift that I think Roars have when I think about storytelling in particular. A lot of us are just like buzzing through life and not seeing all the beautiful, amazing, incredible, sad, you know, awe-inspiring things around us in the everyday. Yeah. And I'm always like, we have to look at the world with story eyes and just like slow down enough to see what's happening. Yes. And recognize those moments, um, because most of us think, well, if I— if something really big hasn't happened to me, I really don't have a story to share. And that's just totally not true. It's all about—

oh, always have story here. Yes, story.

Fours always have a story to share.

And so good.

And they're all like significant, you know? And so that is a gift because most of us are like, I don't have time to see it, or we're missing it. They're not missing a thing.

Okay, things off. Uh, so fours are like carrying around gallon buckets of stories, like pickle buckets of stories everywhere they go. And the challenge for can be to pick the right story. So we all need coaches and we all need people to bounce off ideas on, but particularly when 4s are choosing their story, that's really helpful because it was so deep and meaningful to them, that one perfect buttercup flower at the corner of the sidewalk. And it was so deep for them. I'm not making fun, like, it's genuine. Yeah, but that doesn't communicate what you want it to communicate. To your audience, right? They're like, I mean, it's a week, right? Like, and it's so crushing to the core because I'm like, oh, this is my story. Yeah. But they— so helping— letting people help you choose your story is really important. I'm thinking about a friend of ours who really wanted to tell a story about running, but it didn't actually serve their audience, and they had to work through that, which is work, and that's okay. Um, the other thing I would love for folks to know is that you're not missing something. That other people have. You are a speaker, and it's— you are a great speaker. And everybody has different things they're working toward. And so the 4s really— we need your stories, and they're not messing something up on the stage. You're not a phony up there. That's important for 4s to really know.

Beautiful.

So for 5s— so we were talking about 5s earlier, that 5s speak in paragraphs. So their top their speak style is explaining. So what's great about Fives is that they can explain really complicated things, which is so important. What they can fall into a trap of, like, it's a treatise, you know, like it's this whereas, and like there's just paragraph after paragraph paragraph. And one of the things I like to remind Fives of is that that, remember when you didn't know something? You need to— and what that felt like— have some intellectual compassion for your audience. So you couldn't start with the deep end. You wanted it, but you couldn't get there. You had to start at the beginning. And that's from a man— that phrase, um, intellectual compassion— is from a man who started the Bible Project, and his name's John Collins. And, and that intellectual empathy for your audience is really where 5s can stay in explaining and not move into treatise or code, you know, speaking in jargon, or to equate complication with value and power.

And that our job as speakers is to take the complicated, to take the unknown, to take the new, and to translate it for an audience so that it is so easily understood and appreciated and meaningful. Yeah, and not just this, but meaningful. That's more here. And so, so it's, you know, Fives know all these things and they've got to do the, the work of processing it to understand, help us as an audience understand what it means. So then he has to do that too.

And so one of the things that is for Fives to approach that, making it simple, is first starting with that intellectual empathy, but then thinking about it like a puzzle. I have a fact and I have data. What's the story that provides context around that puzzle piece? So if they can find a story that illustrates their data point, that is what people will remember. They'll remember your data because they want people to remember their data, but find the story of the puzzle around that. And most Fives are also really funny. They often have a little quirky really enjoyable sense of humor, and but they don't always think that's professional. And so like, it's okay for you to be funny. Use your humor as long as it doesn't come across as sarcastic and cutting. Yeah. Um, your humor is what will endear people to you. Yeah. And you become as endearing as The Big Bang Theory, right? That's what, you know, you're like, oh, that's Um, it is, is a really important piece that they have to offer that I think most Fives don't always think about.

I love that. Yeah, I mean, my husband's an improviser and, um, and he does it intentionally. So he started an improv group when we were in college and then now has been doing improv professionally, you know, a few times a month. He's a 5, he's an improviser, and he sees it as, um, helping him continue to stay really present in the now and get out of his head and stay really, uh, sharp, um, and, and have fun and to enjoy and stay a little looser instead of being all up here all the time. Improv forces you into the now in a really powerful way. So great practice.

I mean, it's powerful for everybody, but it's almost— I mean, not to overstate it, like a spiritual practice, but as a life practice for a 5, that is powerful.

Yeah. Um, when he doesn't do it That's really important. He really loves it.

Yeah, so good. And, uh, when Fives are thinking about how they're approaching their audience, two other quick things for them to remember is that presence, to really be in their body. So body activities before you start— you've got all kinds of great strategies for people about the body, and some people are like, why are we doing that? We're already here. Yeah, Fives need them. They need those body exercises to pull things out of their head and into their bodies.

Yes.

And then to— when you're there, you're present, really think about a talk as a, as a conversation with a friend who knows enough. So you're not— it's like your friend is informed and it's a conversation and you, you're still sharing and learning things but they're not like— you are going to be competent in sharing with them. So think of that conversation with a friend who knows enough can really set you up for the right tone in your speech.

I love that. I love that. Just that small shift of thinking of your audience of someone close, like you know this person and they know you, and so this is an intimate, a more intimate conversation, and they know enough So you're not, you know, you're kind of elevating their abilities so that you're giving them some credit in the conversation. I think it's so important we give our audience credit and assume some credit, and you can gently bring people into that because that's a much better way than assuming that they don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's so good. Um, the next number for Sixes, um, so what I love about Sixes is nobody on the planet can ask questions like Sixes. They ask the most and the best questions. I mean, I ask a lot of questions. You've known me enough to know that I ask all kinds of questions. Yeah. Sixes, they got their questions, they got 'em all. And so Lean into that as a speaker. Ask your audience the big questions because you already thought of them. Yeah, you know, and ask them. Um, what, what they need to be careful of in that questioning style is to make sure it doesn't sound doubtful or, um, almost— it can be apocalyptic, like, what if the worst thing happens? Uh, you know, so if you can keep the questions, um, broad and grounded rather than panicky. That is where your real— that sweet spot is for Sixes and leaning into these big idea questions and the what-if questions that are full of possibility, not what-if questions that are full of dread and terror. Like that, that's really easy for a Six to fall into.

They're planning. They're thinking about all that stuff anyway.

They are preparing all the time. All the time. I'm, I'm helping— when I help 6 clients, we, we do an exercise where you get to worry about this for 10 minutes. Write them all down, write all the worries down, and then let's come back and see if any of them actually happen, right? To start to like— one, you get to get it all out, and then two, you get to start proving to yourself that you did know what to do, right? What did you do about those things, and you were capable. Because that's another thing for the 6, of knowing that you can make good decisions, right? You can stand on the stage and ask a good question and make good decisions about what you're bringing to your audience.

Well, I think the 6s are probably in a really good position when they are thinking about their technology and having all of the backup plans and all have talked through all those scenarios. So when I do a big event, we kind of apply this mindset of productive paranoia, of just like, we're just gonna apply a bunch of productive paranoia here. And like, well, what would we do if this happened? What would we do if this happened? So at least we have some plans in place, because probably half the time we end up utilizing something that we really hope we would need to, but I know, and a 6 probably already thought of it. Yeah.

Uh, and let that give you confidence when you're on the stage. Yeah. That you know that you can handle whatever's gonna come, cuz you've already prepared for it.

Yeah.

In your mind, you have already prepared for it. The other thing that 6s, um, can really do is they can sometimes be scared of the spotlight in a different way than 5s. Like 5s are like, what if I don't have the I don't have the energy to give this speech, or I don't know enough. Sixes are, what if I'm not prepared enough? What if this spotlight on me— I want to help my people. They're very much about the community. I think community is the biggest word for Sixes. And so if they can focus on their idea and defending and promoting their idea and bringing the audience into your community, versus thinking about the spotlight on me and I'm totally responsible. Like, bring— lean into your natural community and now see the audience as part of your community. You're bringing them in with your idea and, and pull that in. And if you're nervous and you get anxious, because a lot of Sixes have their own little quirks that they do when they get anxious, and if you feel comfortable with that, I mean, be self-deprecating, you know, like I mean, you know that I'm just standing up here sweating, and, and that's okay. Yeah, we're gonna, you know, like, however you feel like that feels authentic, it's okay to be a little self-deprecating in your humor, um, about yourself and let that bring the audience in.

Love it.

And if you're gonna give this, again, like, this idea of the lean into the hope a little bit. Sometimes that can be really hard for Sixes, is in your preparation and in your motivation. And when you're giving a speech, people really want to be left with some hope. And so that can be a challenge for Six. So when you're thinking about the organization of your speech, try to end with some, some hope. You've prepared for it. Sixes, we're confident in that, and you can do it. So and with some hope. That's, that's the thing for Sixes.

Love it. So good.

And then our Sevens— all right, I'm finding my notes. Um, our Sevens are the biggest storytellers. We don't have as many stories as the Fours, but I mean, at a dinner party, at a, at a coffee, I mean, there's always a story. It doesn't, it doesn't matter what it is. I'm gonna tell And so in that natural storytelling, it can be also really easy for, for Sevens to be sarcastic in their stories. Um, it's a little bit of this, I don't want to be trapped in all of the emotion of this story, and so I'm going to be a little sarcastic to relieve that for ourselves. But then your audience comes away with like a, a weird bitter— it's, it's almost bittersweet, but it's not bittersweet. It's like, wait, what happened? And we don't see it like that. Like, we're just— we told the story, but I don't want to get totally vulnerable and trapped in that emotion, so I'm gonna throw in a sarcastic comment, or I'm gonna—

yeah.

Um, and so the story can totally have comic relief, but what's important for Sevens is because we're such storytellers and we can just tell a story off the top of our head, to plan your story in your talk of what the comic relief is. So you don't throw in a random sarcastic comment that is jarring for the audience, but rather a levity for the audience that's, ah. You know when you're watching, um, like Die Hard or some action movie, somebody always has this like one-liner in the middle of the car chase. And it's because it's so intense, the audience does need a little bit of a break. And so for sevens, you need to plan that. So because you're gonna feel it and then it'll come out some weird way, right? So plan that.

Nice. Humorous break. And, um, I'm having so many flashbacks of moments for myself where I'm like, yeah, I just got real awkward there.

Oh my gosh, totally.

Oh, it's okay.

Yeah. Um, the other thing that's really important for 7s, and one of the things that I, one of the reasons I was like, I need Sally to be my coach, is because I know that I need structure and process. Because we're gonna just tell stories all day long, or we're gonna share some random pieces of information, and then we're gonna tell you another funny story, and then wait a second, I don't know quite where we are, so I'm gonna make a joke, and then I'm gonna come back with some other information that just popped into my head. And your audience is like, what is happening? Right.

Nice.

And so the structure and the process of developing a talk is really important for settings. You've got the natural gift. Almost all 7s can naturally stand up and are not afraid of the microphone. But what you bring to your audience with structure then really helps them get what you're wanting to tell them. You, you get to tell your stories in a way that brings them along and take them where you want them to go and your ideal destination, because we are idealists.

Yes.

And so That structure is the support to get you there.

Yeah.

Um, so that's really important for 7s. And the other thing for 7s that we don't like to do, and Sally has made me do because she's right, is rehearse. Like, we're just gonna rely on our charm, you're gonna stand up and just— I'll be fine, people will leave and they'll have laughed and they'll be great, or it's going to fall apart. And so rehearsing is a really important thing for Sevens that Sevens will resist. Yeah, um, but it's an important—

yeah, my word for Sevens and the challenge that I have come to embrace only because I've worked with people who needed it so much is discipline. And that's not a word that I like or that Sevens like. It's like, that is you are killing my fun. But discipline— speaking is a discipline, editing is a discipline, um, rehearsing is a discipline, um, being prepared, showing up early, uh, knowing, taking the time to really know your audience. Like, all of these things are disciplines, and it's not easy. And it's not fun, but it makes us masterful because it takes this raw talent and finesses it, and you become just a powerhouse with a little bit of discipline.

Oh, it's so little discipline. That is so funny. Like, it's really not a lot. No.

Um, And we're just like making that pencil tip so much sharper. Yeah, it's crazy.

It's such raw talent. And what Sevens really have to offer that people don't always know is depth. There is so much depth in a Seven, and we as Sevens can sell our audience short. Uh, we are really keeping something from them that can release them to experience the joy that we have all the time if we don't— if we're not disciplined enough to let them see the depth.

Yeah.

And we can bring so much joy because joy— I always say this— that joy has deep roots. Yeah, it's not just happiness and fun. Joy has deep roots. And when a 7 can rehearse and have a little bit of discipline and a little bit of structure— I mean, it's really so tiny— um, there is just exponential growth in the depth of what you can offer.

I am totally just like sinking with what you're saying because, um, I shifted maybe a year or so ago. I shifted from using the word weird, like orienting my life around the word positive because I've always been described that way. But you're so positive and you embrace it. Totally.

It's literally one of my strengths.

Yeah, and it's a great word and I love it and I'm so glad to be positive. But what I recognized in myself was that in embracing that, I was, I was missing out on on the fuller spectrum that I really needed to open myself up to more. And so I shifted the word to joy because joy is full. Joy is, is the, the widest expression of humanness. Yeah. And it includes the depth. And like you, like I'm a very deep person. I like to go deep, um, and it's part of— it's sometimes why I've had identity crises over being a Sally Koering Zimney. And I don't have a passport.

So sorry, did not mean to shame you.

But it's especially as a speaker, I have recognized this evolution in myself of like— I think about it, I was just like skipping over the top. I was just like skim, skim, skim, skim, skim. And then as I just evolved as a person, I think, and, and, um, and wanted a more communal experience with my audience and wanted it to be more connected, I could just kind of sink in. So instead of skipping over the top of the ocean, I just sort of let myself sink into it and loved that experience with my audience. I love it. So good. It's the—

every number has something that is counterintuitive. It's the thing that they're running from that is actually the thing that can, can actually bring them what they're wanting. And every number experiences that. They're different things. Like, so for us it's joy, um, and for the 1 it's kind of like their perfectionism. Actually, if they can come to serenity in the fact that the world isn't perfect, that's what brings them that peace, you know. And for the 8s, they're so afraid and they're protecting and they don't want to be vulnerable, but when they actually open up, that vulnerability releases them from that fear. Like, every number has something. What's that? The 3 is, um, being okay with who you are and not the hype of others. Like, I have to, um— so their type wants to achieve what other people see them as. So they come to this authenticity of this, this me, and I'm gonna own who I am, and I don't have to achieve together, and, um, they all have this deep struggle, uh, um, of the thing they're going to run up against and the opposite of that that actually brings them wholeness. And deep Enneagram work, you know, as you start to— the Enneagram is fun and it can be a party trick, but that's kind of useless. Like, it doesn't change anything. It's a fun story for night. But what the depth of the transformation is really seeing, um, the work you can do in creating integration, like recognizing this hard part of my life and integrating it into myself. I'm not going to lose it, it's not going away. How do I heal and integrate that? That's the deep work of the Enneagram.

And I love it.

I know we've talked about speaker tips, but that's why it shows up because you're the person on the stage.

You're—

it's who you are, um, and that's why it's such professional development, personal development work. It's who you are.

So good, so good, Jen. Oh my gosh, we have really dug in on it. I love it. So, so as we wrap up, how can people connect with you, learn more about you? Absolutely.

So I am on, you know, all the socials as Jen Whitmer. So Jen with two N's, W-H-I-T-M-E-R. Um, I'm mostly on LinkedIn and Instagram. Those are the places I'm around the most. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Medium, I'm on Twitter, but those are the places— LinkedIn and Instagram are the good places to find me. JenWhitmer.com, so, is I have lots and lots and lots of resources. So jenwhitmer.com/freebies, there is, um, an Enneagram booklet that is called Why Do I Keep Doing This? Um, that kind of goes through the core motivations of the Enneagram. You can also get some conflict resolution strategies there. There's lots of freebies that are on that page. And then I always love, um, having a session with people and offer that complimentary session because I— you can find so much breakthrough in just talking with somebody.

Yeah.

And so I always like to offer that to your audience. And then if people are listening who are event speakers, you should bring me in for your team and your event. I'm good.

Oh, she's so good.

Of course I'm good.

She is so good. Let me just say, some of the gifts that Jen brings as a speaker. I already talked about how she's equal parts informative and persuasive and inspirational. Like, yes, because that's what we want really from our speakers. But also, Jen is just delightful. And I think you've seen this, that she brings this kind of harrowing topic of conflict and challenge, this thing that maybe it's just me as a 7, I was like, okay, I hate it. And you have been there, Jen. Like, you don't enjoy it, and yet you are finding this— you have found a way through, and you want other people to find a way through it. And so you take this kind of uncomfortable topic that people want to avoid and bring this lightness and love and joy to it. Like, in that the best sense of the word, this full human experience with it. And Jen is just a very skilled performer as well. So, whole package, Jen Whitmer.

Thanks!

I'm gonna tear up.

I love bringing the real tools to the audience because it's such a daunting topic, and I still have to do the strategies, because conflict isn't going away because we're people. And so I love bringing the real tools, but the lightness of it is like, because it can be so scary. So if we can laugh a little bit while we're figuring this out, we're much more likely to take the tools away and use them later, and not just like in this one time.

Yeah, yeah, it's a lifelong journey. And that's what I think is so cool about the Enneagram it's really a lifelong tool, and your relationship with it continues to change as your life changes. So it's not just like, oh, I'm this, done. It's like you keep coming back to it and learning from it and being challenged by it.

It's true.

Yeah, it's really true. Well, it was so great to have you on the show, Jen. I adore you. I'm so grateful you invited me into to be your host and that you joined me at the Signature Tax Studio. It was so fabulous to have you there. You were like my— don't tell anybody else, but one of my A+ students. I think you know this.

You gave us all A's.

You totally did.

I did.

That's true. There's a reason for that. But yes, you all deserved it. You're the masterpieces. And it's my job to chip away at whatever's holding you back from that.

Yeah. Well, I so appreciate you coming on. I hope that some of the tips for the speakers listening, they can take some nuggets and, and really start to just try to try them out and practice them. If you're not sure of your Enneagram number, pick the one that feels the hardest for you. Oh, like, oh my gosh, that feels hard.

That's probably one of the easiest, right? Yeah, that's so good right there. Um, love it, Jen. Okay, well, thank you so much. I'm gonna say bye. Oh my goodness, you guys, is Jen not amazing? I think she's totally amazing. She's brilliant and so talented. And of course, I hope that you will check out her freebies, jenwhitmer.com/freebies. Um, where you can get some conflict resolution freebies but also learn a little bit more about you and the Enneagram. And it's a powerful tool, so I hope you will join. And, you know, Jen was a part of my Signature Talk Studio program and experience, and she was a brilliant student, and she allowed me, invited me in, dove in so deeply. Um, she was a part of all of the aspects of the program, took the course, followed the process, which you heard her talk about that being such an important part of taking her beautiful, incredible raw talent and giving it a little discipline and approach so that she can really thrive as a speaker and have even clearer sense of her points, her stories, how best to utilize them. And because she showed up for all of the in-person things— well, virtual in-person live things like our Q&As, our workshops where we're workshopping her content—

where she got a lot of coaching.

And so she really took advantage of the experience and got a ton out of it. So it's so exciting to see her now out there sharing her signature talk, uh, and sharing her gifts and her talents and her stories and her brilliance. So, um, if you are curious about the STS, the Signature Talk Studio, it opens in October. So you can go right here, bemove.com/joinsts, and get on the waitlist so that you can be the first to know when it opens. And I think there— we've been talking about the Enneagram here today, which is such a cool tool. And to layer on top of another way for you to understand yourself more and understand the way in which you show up and how you can know yourself even more, I'd love for you to check out this quiz. It's the Speaking Superpower Quiz. And if you go to right here, bemoved.com/speaking-superpower-quiz, takes about 2 minutes, and you'll get a little insight into how you show up and how you can continue to stretch yourself. It's not quite the ancient Enneagram, but I think there's some really powerful things in there, so I'd love for you to check it out. All right, my friends, that's it here with Be Moved by Sally Koering Zimney. So great to have you here, and I hope I will see you again next week.