327: How to Use Stories on the "Free Stages" with Jenn Whitmer
16 Jun 2022 · 27 min
In this episode of the Be Moved podcast, host Sally Koering Zimney interviews speaker and conflict‑resolution expert Jenn Whitmer about leveraging “free stages” – social‑media platforms and podcasts – to build visibility for a speaking business. Jenn explains how she practices and refines her signature stories across Instagram Stories, LinkedIn shows, YouTube, and guest‑podcast appearances, using these low‑stakes venues to adapt narratives for different audiences. The conversation introduces a story‑first methodology, emphasizing that starting with a vivid moment engages listeners before any analytical explanation. They outline a simple three‑step framework called NMM (Moment → Meaning → Move) that guides speakers to craft persuasive, audience‑centered messages and end with a gentle call‑to‑action. Practical tips include collecting repeatable stories, tailoring them to the platform, using repetition to reinforce culture, and ensuring a clear next step for the audience. The episode closes with a nudge for listeners to treat every free stage as an opportunity to apply the NMM framework.
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Hey movers, it's Sally Z with Be Moved. Let's go create some talks that will move this world. We're going to talk with amazing speakers, share tips, tricks, resources, and we are going to be moved so that our audience can be moved. This moved me. What is moving All right. We are talking about power of podcasting in your business.
Hi everybody.
It's Sally Zimney. And, uh, yeah, I have been dealing with the COVID It's been great, but I'm here feeling generally pretty good and doing a live today. With the amazing Jen Whitmer, who will be joining us in a moment. And Jen is one of my speakers, and she has really focused on leveraging her story, her expertise, on all of the free stages that we have available to us. Social media is one of them. She has lots of different avenues, of course, a signature talk and her keynotes that she's developing and sharing with the world and really leveraging that power. But specifically, she has spent a lot of time on podcasts sharing her expertise, her story. And I wanted to talk with someone who, not just like me, I have a podcast and I'm a guest on many podcasts, but I also wanted to invite Jen in. To share about her experience.
Oh, it's working!
Yay, there you are!
Hi!
Hello, hello! Good morning!
Yes, it is still morning.
It is still morning, only for a little bit longer. Here we are, and we are talking today about the power of podcasting in a speaking business in particular. And I thought of you not only because you are one of my speakers and just a delightful example of somebody who is working the entire ecosystem of your content. So you have content, you have expertise, and you're finding all the different ways to share it, which is exactly what we wanna be doing with our signature talks.
Yes, ma'am.
That you get to start to see. Jen Star Student. So, uh, we'll dive into that, but let's take a moment. Would you introduce yourself, please, and tell everybody what you do and what that particular expertise is?
Yes, absolutely. So I'm Jen Whitmer, and I help teams and leaders solve conflict and personality clashes and really empower their teams and live full flourishing lives. So they can be peaceful and get their work done and do all that type of fantastic things that we want to be doing without kind of sacrificing, oh my gosh, I have a home life, or feeling the guilt that I'm not working hard enough. How do we get along better? That's what I love to help people do. Awesome.
Wonderful. So making life at work better. Generally.
In general. So that goes through Really specifically working on communication and conflict resolution. Like, how do we get along better in that way? But also the self-awareness that's required to lead, and that always starts with ourselves. And that's, those are the two places that I really love to help people work. Like, how do we gain this self-awareness? I use the Enneagram as my major tool. And then how do we apply that in how we talk with each other and solve problems?
And that's, uh, Yes. And we have spent a lot of time together. You have been taking all my courses. You're in my Movers Lab right now. You're doing all the things. You might start soon.
Thank you. Yay! Where's my confetti? I know.
And it's been so wonderful to watch you really use the system that we talk about in terms of building core content. Finding core stories that you have, right? What we call a signature story that is, that sets up and illuminates a point that you want to make, that aligns you and your business. Like there's all kinds of beautiful content that you've built, but you don't just wait then and wait for somebody to ask you to come speak. You are really taking advantage of what I call the 3 stages. That are around us all the time. Social media, you do— tell, tell me about all the free stages that you are taking advantage of all the time.
Okay. So free stages, let's start where we are. Like we'll do concentric circles. So I love practicing my stories on Instagram stories. Like this morning I was walking into the gym. I am dead tired. I do not want to do this. I do not. I'm like walking in and like, And I thought, I need to remember what it feels like when I'm done. And then I thought, I need to tell that story because there's all kinds of places where we need to remember what it feels like when we're done. And so practicing on Instagram stories, I will probably continue to riff on that story. It's like, I've already thought of a few things, but practicing that on Instagram stories is really great. And then the next place I like to do that is on LinkedIn. So I, I use that. And so I'm kind of like, ooh, how can I apply that to a LinkedIn audience? Which is really, I like to say my audience is in both places and they're just at work at LinkedIn and they're playing at home on Instagram. And so it's the same people. And so how do I talk to them while they're thinking about work stuff? How do I talk to those women when they're thinking about work? And so that LinkedIn free stage, I do a weekly show on LinkedIn where I either talk myself or I interview people, and then I put that on YouTube and then I link that somewhere on my website, you know, like, so it's just the same stuff in all of these different places. Stuff is not the right word, but content and stories are in the places where different people can find them. But I learned from you how to make those stories always, always a part of what I'm doing. That it's not just, oh, I'm just sharing this information. My background is a teacher. Sometimes I either want to do or tell. And so the sharing of a story has been a really powerful piece that's helped me communicate my points.
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. And you haven't brought this up yet, but you are a frequent guest on podcasts.
Yes, absolutely. I am a guest on my podcast sometimes.
But also that has been an intentional part of your visibility initiatives and strategy. Right. Tell me, tell me a little bit about that process. Yeah.
So it really started probably about 2, 2 and a half years ago. I basically decided I wanted to get more exposure. And so it was basically a year. If anybody was going to ask me to be on a podcast, I would say yes. And because I was fairly early in my speaking career and I was just starting to figure out how I wanted to practice telling these stories. In a way that was different than standing up on a stage and giving information, even though I always told stories and was funny, but podcasts let me play with that a little bit. So it just gave me a lot of opportunities to learn how to answer a question with a story, learn how to say, oh, here's the answer to that, but let me tell you a story that will help. Like just different ways to practice that. And so I got experience talking to many, many different types of people. So I could see how the story could be adapted to different audiences. I wasn't at that point super concerned with, oh my gosh, I'm only talking to this one niche of people because everybody needs communication and self-awareness and conflict resolution. Everybody needs that. So that was really helpful to me to just start to practice on, oh, it's a business podcast. It's a relationship podcast. It's a podcast for leaders. It's a podcast for entrepreneurs. It's a po— like It just helped me adapt my stories to different places. Right.
What I'm hearing is you recognize the process power of free stages in terms of it lowers stakes. There's practice that comes in really naturally in those opportunities. You're practicing connecting your stories to your audiences. Like there's lots of good reasons why we do that aside from the fact why most of us get into and focus on those initiatives, which is we want more exposure, we want more visibility, we want to grow our audience, we want more people to recognize us and our work and want to work with us. So those are all really good reasons to be leveraging the free stages. But you said something that I'm like, ooh, I wanna go back and dig into this a little bit more. You talked about How to, you learned how to answer a question with a story.
I did.
You did.
Okay.
So tell me about that. How, how do you do that?
Yeah, so I was on a podcast, uh, with a woman who it's called, I'm gonna butcher the name of it. I think it's called Everyday Grace. This was about 2 years ago. So, and she was asking me questions about Enneagram and conflict resolution. And so for each I was like, rather than me just say, okay, so Enneagram 4s are in what we call the dynamite category, and they tend to be really reactive when something doesn't go their way. I was like, I need stories to explain that. So when she would ask a question, I would say, so Enneagram 4s are in what I call the dynamite group. And here's an example. And I would start it with a story. Well, by the time I got through it, I didn't even have to say anymore. So here's an example. I would, I could state like the one sentence to give somebody kind of what technically I would call schema context, a bucket to put it in, and then tell the story and then come back with a little bit more of the context and facts per se, the expertise, whatever we wanna put in there. But I just, I really remember on that podcast because we were gonna make it two podcasts anyway, and we were gonna go around the circle of the Enneagram's nine types. Nobody, everybody was going to get confused without visuals if I didn't tell some type of story that went with them. And I think that's the one that I vividly remember answering your question with, Cory. Yeah.
Well, you're, you're basically telling us how you are making sure that you are approaching your content in a way that is persuasive. And brain-friendly, which is something that we talk about in, over in my courses, in Signature Talk Studio, in the lab. It's, we are, we are a story-first approach.
Yeah.
And that is really disorienting for a lot of people at first, cuz they're like, I know stories are important, but I want to explain what the story's about. I kind of wanna like till the soil and make sure I'm like seeding my point. Before I tell the story that explains the point or is an example of that point. And when we do that, we absolutely pull the legs out from under the persuasive power of stories. When you're story first, people feel the point before you have to explain it. So when you said, I hardly had to say anything after that, it's because Everybody gets it and understands it more on a cellular level cuz they recognize it from a human empathy experience first. And then you're just kind of, you know, putting the, the little star, like the star over the eye, the little heart over the eye, right? Like you get to put your own little perspective and edge to it. To help make the point and really bring it home. And it's so, so powerful. So story first is an approach that you can take with you on all of your free stages, right?
Yeah.
Podcasts, on Instagram, over on TikTok, like LinkedIn, all the places that we're showing up. If you just bring that little bit with you, like taking your content and putting story first, you're going to absolutely feel a deeper sense of connection with your audience faster.
Yes. And it's something I have grown in. Like, I still have to remember if I'm going to tell somebody something, that there has to be some kind of story or connection to it. And I, I still forget sometimes. It's not like 100% of the time there's always a story. But I would say the vast majority of the time there is a story. And one of the reasons that I love using stories is because if I'm giving facts, people like to argue. And that's a different part of your brain. They're like, well, that didn't happen for me. I didn't do that. You know, which is of course it's every person's experience is different. But when I tell a story, you don't argue with a story and you start to find your connection in it. So if I just start with facts, people are like, all their defenses are up. But if I can start with like, I can remember one time, or so imagine this, or other ways to say, let me give you an example, because I've grown in that. But like, they, they, I don't have to point out how that applies to them because they figure out how that applies to them.
Yep. And when you're telling stories well, in other words, really making it imaginative and descriptive and giving people a sense of who these characters are. There's lots of tools that you can use in your storytelling. When you do that well, people, they can't help but be pulled in and start to see it in their own heads and feel it in their bodies. And once that happens, you're right. All the, the, the, what I like to call the file cabinet in the brain kind of just goes quiet. Yeah. And originally, if you don't start with story in your, in your content approach, they're file cabineting it. They're like, oh, I know what this is about. And I already think about this about it. And I'm going to put it here.
Yep.
And now it's so much harder to move people when they're like, nope, this is where I'm at with it. You're going to have to prove otherwise versus I don't know where I'm at with it because I hadn't heard your story yet.
And now.
It brings you closer to where you want people to go without having to convince them.
Yes, absolutely. One of the other things that I remember thinking sometimes as I'm telling a story, as I'm getting to the end of my story, I give kind of the punchline point, final close of whatever that is, and then go on to a little bit about either the application or some facts to support the story, whatever that is. I literally tell myself Coco Chanel, who is famous for like, put all your accessories on and take the last thing off. And like having to leave one little bit off is so hard for me. But every time I do that, it's so much better.
I love that.
It's such a hard— like I have to remind myself, okay, Coco Chanel, they don't need it all. Just give them one. Really hard, but it's been really helpful for me.
It's so hard. We want to, that's why we are doing what we're doing. That's why we're pushing ourselves to be on the free stages all the time is because we have something to offer. We're like, here's what I want you to know, and I've got knowledge and expertise and please take, like, take it. But you're right. When we can put it in a container, like you're saying, like a story or whatever, it forces us. To make choices about not giving it all and not overwhelming people. So, I mean, we can talk forever about all of the powerful reasons why everybody needs to be using a story-first approach. So storytelling and free stages. So when you are preparing for these free stage moments, How do you prepare your stories? Like, is there a, you know, do you, do you go grab them from your signature talk depending on what the content or topic is? Like, what's your approach for preparing for those moments? I think it's changed.
When I was first starting out, I would just remember to tell a story. Like, that's kind of what I would, and it would be a story that happened the other day or something that I would just kind of tell. A story that makes sense to me in the moment. And I still do that sometimes because there's something that comes and I'm like, oh, that's, that's the thing that fits right here, right now. And it's a new experience. I think now when I'm going into a podcast or free— if it's a podcast and I'm getting interview questions, usually a podcaster says, hey, we're— I'm gonna ask you about this topic. Or they may have a super long list of questions, which helps me start to figure out what stories I wanna tell. And now because I've learned to collect my stories. Oh, I'll think like, oh yeah, that's a great story that this audience will appreciate. You know, if I'm talking about working moms, I can tell a story about my kids that will even relate in the business world. If I'm just talking on a general leadership story, not that I can't still tell stories about my kids, but I may choose a work example story to go into that. There are some stories that I tell over and over and over again, and I always feel really uncomfortable with that. But I also have to remember that this person hasn't heard this before, most likely. Even if they've heard it once, they're not going to do what my kids do, which is like, oh my God, the grape pencil bowling story, Mom. They're not gonna do that.
No.
And what happens is almost always, because those stories are so practiced, they're better. They've been refined. They have been clarified, I know how to get to the point better. And never once have I heard somebody say, you told that story over here and now I didn't like it this time. Nobody ever said that. Nope.
No, I, I spend a lot of time convincing people that not only is it okay to repeat your content, you need to. It's so important that you do it. Otherwise you never get to mastery. Absolutely. Every context demands something different of the story. And of your, the perspective that you're gonna apply to it. So I love that. Okay.
And one, I wanna say one more quick thing about repeat. Yes. The struggle in my mind is I also know that stories are artifacts of culture and the stories we tell over and over again, that is how we build a culture of a team. That's how we build a culture of a family. That's how we build a culture of an organization. We have to repeat those stories in order to say these are the value blocks of our group. And I fight that with, oh, but what if somebody hears the story again? And so I have to really lean into that idea. It's like I'm building a culture by repeating this story.
Yes. Oh, mic drop moment.
I am with you on that.
That's beautiful.
Beautiful, beautiful.
Okay. So I want to wrap this up. By talking about this new framework that I'm calling a simple story framework. We've been talking about it the whole way along. I put some names to it. I call it, well, I call it the simple story framework, but it's NMM.
Okay.
We talked about a story-first approach. That's the moment. So start with the moment. Okay. Then your job is to apply meaning to that moment for your audience. So you're gonna help them find the meaning of it, make sense of it. So you mentioned, Jen, that stories help illuminate these complex ideas around the Enneagram. It's like, what does that mean? Well, the story makes it meaningful, but your job as the speaker on this free stage is to help illuminate that meaning. So that's the second M. So you draw those connections for them. And then the third M I call move, which is what do you then want them to do with it? So what comes next from that?
And the moment, meaning move.
If you just take those little 3 nuggets right there with you and go, how can I moment, meaning move on Instagram stories today? How can I moment, meaning move? In this podcast question, how can I moment, meaning move on my LinkedIn show? Like you can literally take this strategy and approach because it's going to be persuasively effective and powerful. It's simple and it makes sure that you're keeping kind of your humanity and your audience's humanity and that level of connection and empathy at the forefront. Yeah.
I like that. I mean, I think so much of what I've learned from you, that is a, a perfectly distilled framework for that. And sometimes I think what I forget is the moves because sometimes I'm scared. What do I— I don't know what I want you to do. Like I have to think about, oh, what do I want you to do with this information? I think that's the piece that I struggle with. And I'm listening to you tell that and that even that alone then helps me clarify what do I want? It's a different little thing. Right.
Even if you're, you know, you're not making a hard sell, this is not about like a hard, like CTA, you know, button necessarily, but it is a nudge. I think we are trying to do something with our communication. Yeah. All the time. Every time. And so what is it that you want people to do if you have that in mind? And you can articulate it at the end, it can be a very gentle nudge.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, there's been so much research recently about how many times you have to hear a message. So when my kids were little and they didn't want to eat the broccoli, I'd be like, you have to try it at least 10 times because that's how long it takes to learn to like something. Which is true. I read it in an actual research paper, but now as we are talking about messages, it takes so many more impressions because we're so distracted all the time.
Yeah.
It's okay to remind somebody what you want them to do because repetition is a mercy. That's what Jackie Hill Perry says that, and I think repetition is a mercy. I think we get so caught up in how I feel, and I think, what are they gonna think of me? Rather than, oh, what, how can I be clear about helping you? And when I think about it like that, it's so much easier.
So much easier. We don't wanna leave people in confusion. Or if you think about it persuasively, they've just experienced something with you. If you are moment and meaning, they're like, oh, oh, okay, well then now what? Otherwise you're leaving them in that state and not offering them— think of it this way, it's just the next step. What is the very next thing that they need to do because they've just had this experience?
They're already with me. They kind of want to know, what do you— how do I do this?
Otherwise you keep people dangling.
Yes. And I, yeah, I am somebody who hates music that ends on an unresolved chord. Drives me crazy. So I feel like if I think about it like that, maybe I will.
Oh, good. Good.
A little CTA.
Yeah. It's just like, what's the next move? What's the next move? Very simple. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, this is the first time that I've talked about this new framework. That's not a new framework. I've, I've been using this framework for 20 years. And what I've done now is, is put it in a new, you know, we love alliteration. We just found, we just found the right words for it.
Well, I think one of the things I love about that is having experienced so much in-depth training with you, I see the distilledness, the distilled nature of that. But I know there's so much more that is behind that, that I've learned from you that that's why, but that's a great starting place.
Mm-hmm.
Like that I can approach it from that way, but people who are new can say, oh, I can remember that and continue to learn.
Okay. Well, be on the lookout everyone, because I'm still finessing, like the, we're, we're at a lake standstill. I got COVID, the whole, like everything's behind. Here we go. We were supposed to do this last Wednesday. Okay, my friend, you are amazing as always. I'm so grateful for your insights and expertise, how you have really dived in to making your dreams come true. This is— I'm watching it happen and it is such a delight for me. I'm so proud of you and you know I'm always in your corner cheering you on.
Well, thank you, because I would not be here without you. Okay.
You are the best. All right, everybody, thank you for being here. Thank you for joining us. And my nudge for you, my move moment for you is to access these free stages. Okay? They are all around you. See them as opportunities to practice moment, meaning, and move.
All right.
All right. Yes, go for it. World needs you, boys.
Bye. Bye.
