A Masterclass In How to Disqualify Prospects From A $2.4 Million Biller

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today I'm very pleased to announce our guest for the second time in a row, Mike Anderson. For anyone that doesn't know, Mike is a $2.4 million biller. The last episode we did was speaking about Mike's genius BD strategies. The episode got hundreds of hours of watch time and it had an overwhelmingly positive response from you guys, which is awesome. So by popular demand, we thought we would bring him back on, but this time we're going to focus on one of the biggest things that recruiters struggle with— qualifying. Guys, this episode is a mini masterclass in how to qualify clients and candidates, and as a result, you will save a lot more time and close a lot more deals. Just a heads up, Mike has officially launched his online training program for recruiters. If you're interested, check out the link below. And as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this and let's get into it, shall we? Hello Mike, how are you brother?

I'm good, what's up fellas? Long time.

Long time dude, I'm so glad you're back. Um, I'm sure the public, or maybe the public aren't aware of this, but your podcast has got hundreds of hours of watch time. So we— it's for people that don't know, we've already done a pod with Mike, it absolutely popped off, like hundreds of hours of watch time. I had dozens of people reaching out to me, Mike had dozens of people, so They loved you so much, we had to get you back, Mike. So thank you for coming for round 2. And you're the first guest to come back for round 2 as well. So that's something to be proud of, I think.

Hey, how about that? No, it's good. I had a good time on it last time. I had no idea it was going to go well. I got a lot of questions and outreach and stuff like that from people. So I guess it's a good thing. But I'm glad I was able to do it. And I'm glad you guys decided to ask me back. I like— I know you guys are good at what you do, and I'm glad to be a part of it.

Thank you, dude.

Thank you.

And so a lot of the first podcast was more focused on BD, and now we kind of wanted to bring it on the other side of things, so more kind of client-candidate focus in terms of how you approach them and how you speak to them in that process. So, but, but one thing I wanted to start with was, with, was this question, was what's the— what's one of the biggest things you see recruiters struggle with? Because you coach a lot of recruiters and so I'm just wondering what comes up the most when they ask you for training.

Yeah. And so I coach a lot of recruiters now, which sort of scratches the itch that I have. Like when I was in an agency and I did a lot of management, I was able to like pour myself into other people and try to like, you know, ignite their careers and get them going the right direction. And obviously now that I'm on my own, this— the coaching thing sort of helps me do that. But it's funny because the same thing that I coach people on when I was working with them is the same thing that I often am coaching people on here. And the, for me, the number one thing that I see that most recruiters often struggle with is they spend time on things that are never going to make them money. They think that they are, and they like the idea that it might make them money. But when they, when they really, if they really look down, down deep, there's a lot of like this going on. And what I try to teach is you can mitigate a lot of your risk with just the right questions. And what'll happen is you'll look up and in 3 or 4 weeks you'll get to an answer that you otherwise could have gotten in 3 or 4 weeks prior had you just asked the right question. It's why I always say good recruiters get the answer eventually, great recruiters get the answer now.

Really interesting. So what are some of the things that they do that, that gives them this, you know, they start praying. And what are some of the things you see them trip up on, Mike, out of interest?

Yeah. So like, I mean, oftentimes you'll— I mean, I've dealt with this before, right? Like, I'll— like, I'd have recruiters, you know, back in the day, they would be on, you know, they're coming up to the end of their draw. They're like, I got to make a deal happen. And you sort of look back at what they've been working on the last month, 2 months, 3 months, and you're like, what have you been working on? And you'll see them spending time on a client where they've sent 15, 20, 25, 30 candidates through. Had like 4 or 5 interviews go down and they think they're right there about to crack the code to get a hire. And you're sitting there thinking like, move on. This client's a window shopper. They're not, they're not serious. Like, and, and they, they don't wanna look at the totality of the evidence that's in front of them. And I always say, let a client can tell you who they are, but, and, and you should, you should believe 'em. But once they show you who they are, you have to believe 'em. And like, that is, and so oftentimes they're just spending way too long on clients that are never gonna make them money. They're never gonna transact with. Or a candidate at the same time. They're really trying to rep a candidate. They think they've got this great candidate who's a rock star, whatever, whatever they're good at, which I'm sure they are good at whatever they do. But the candidate is never actually going to leave the job that they're in, or they're never going, you know, they're, they're way overpaid. They're never going to leave for a pay cut. Like, there's just a million different reasons why you're spending time working with a candidate that you're never actually going to get placed. Uh, and, and that to me is, is, is such a You kind of get married to people that you have a good conversation with, when in reality, the good conversation should tell you everything you need to know. And if you are running your business the way it should be, you tell, hey man, right now, or hey, you know, hey, whoever, this isn't gonna be the right time for me. It doesn't sound like you're ready to make a move. Hey client, it doesn't sound like you're ready to make a hire right now. I'm 100% commission-based, which means I only eat what I kill. I gotta be able to work on what's gonna get me paid now, and it sounds like You're not ready now. If you ever are ready, give me a call back, but I gotta focus on other stuff. And I think that the time for people to say that is just they kick the can down the road way too far.

Really interesting. What would you say from the people that you've coached, Mike? Would you say that the problem of, you know, clients wasting their time compared to candidates, which one crops up more often, do you think? Is it with the candidate or is it with the client or is it 50/50? Based on what you've seen?

No, that's a good question, Ben. I, for me, uh, I would say 90%. I mean, I, there's— I don't have any data on this, but I'm just guessing, but I would say 85 to 90% of it is going to be on the client side. It's going to be because everybody looks at the client as the, ah, and I always tell people, until somebody pays you, they're not a client, they're just a lead. Like, that doesn't— they don't— they're nothing. And so you can have a lot of window shoppers, you can have a lot of contracts, you can have a lot of people that are like We'd love to hire, but they're looking for an— like, I mean, I posted about it a couple days ago where I talked about they're looking for something that is not realistic. And yet, because they signed your fee at 25, 30%, it could— your fee could be 100%. If the person's not out there, you're not going to make any money. And so, um, I think a lot of times we get the, uh, we, we, we see the shiny object and we think we can get it, but the reality of it is, is you're never going to get that. And so, um, I think looking in the mirror and having a real conversation And there's a lot of stuff you can ask and we'll, I'm sure we'll go into it, but like, those are the things that tell you, hey, this is worth my time and this isn't. When I say they spend time with a candidate that they're, that they're wasting their time on, it means that they are, they've got a client that probably is billable. They think that they can make money there, but they're sending in a candidate to a job that, that candidate's never gonna leave. They don't have a solidified reason for leaving. They're not actually serious about moving. Like, it just, you, you're, you're, you're living in a, on a, on a hope and a prayer and it's just never gonna happen. And I, I, when you stand back, it's very, it's very hard to do. And it's a skill set that a lot of recruiters should get. But if you can, if you can assess it yourself, that's great. But when you stand back and I coach people so I can see it a mile away, it's very clear as day when I can see you're going to make money here, you're not going to make money here. And I can poke holes in their stories. And so it's invaluable for them because essentially what they're paying me for is to do that. I mean, a lot more. But one of the things I do is I poke holes in their story and they'll see that they're not going to make the money that they thought they would. So while they're paying me to figure that out for them or help them see it, they're saving 2-3 weeks in time to find other candidates, other clients, whatever it is. Makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting when— sorry, go ahead, Sam. When you're poking holes in people's stories, where do they trip up the most? Out of interest, like what keeps on coming up when you poke holes in their stories?

Like, so the most common one where when I say something like this, like I'll poke a hole, I'll poke a hole with a client. I'll say something like this, like, I'll be like, okay, you, you sent over 5 candidates and they've interviewed 2 of them. Okay, sounds like buying language. 2 out of 5, 40%. Not great, but decent. Okay. What about feedback on the other 3 that you sent? I still don't have feedback on those. And they allow the client to get away with not giving feedback on 3 candidates. And the reality of it is, is feedback, good or bad, is just as valuable because you can apply it to the future. The problem is, is when you spend time working, okay, in other words, identifying talent that you think is good for a job, okay, and it's not a good fit for that job, but you don't know why, you just wasted that time. You might as well get the most out of that by either getting the interview, or if not getting the interview, figure out why you're not getting the interview. And that way you're not shooting at a moving target. Like, That I see that all the time. That's a very common one is you don't get feedback on every single submission. That's a problem. You need to be like, and, and it's not that clients don't wake up and say, I can't wait to be at every recruiter's beck and call. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you build a relationship the correct way, they should understand that, hey, this is your time, this is your money, this is what you're spending on your stuff. You're what you're hustling for them for. They should be able to give that. So that I see feedback is a big thing. I also see the client has no concept of recruiter time. So like, they'll, they, they don't, there's no sense of urgency when you give a cogent, correct, you know, you might say, hey, this guy's got a final interview with another company on Friday. You guys need to move now. You told me this was this urgent role. Somebody just quit. You, you're gonna lose whatever contract you have signed up with other companies because you can't get this hire filled. So like, I'm telling you that Steve is available tomorrow. Let's just say tomorrow was Wednesday. Tomorrow's Wednesday, but Steve's gotta find one for me on Friday. And Steve told me that once he finds the right opportunity, he's gonna take it, whether it's you guys or this other company. And so if you wait till next week, you're gonna lose Steve, right? Like, that's, I mean, that's just a basic example. And the client doesn't even hear that, acknowledge that or anything. And then you talk to a recruiter and you're like, how do you think about this client? They're like, it's a good client. And I'm like, well, how? Like, what value do you bring? Right. And for me, my value add is time and talent. So what I say is I save time by finding placeable talent, right? Enclosable talent. Anybody can identify that LeBron James is a good basketball player. A great recruiter knows that he's not leaving the Lakers. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like that's the idea that what I'm talking about. And so anyway, that's, I sort of went off on a tangent there, but the idea being that you gotta be able to know, uh, what's worth your time. And so like I have a very good criteria that I use to decipher whether what's a good client. Okay. It's like something that I, I've created, and that tells me where I— what's worth my time, what's not worth my time, to what degree, etc.

Really fascinating. I think you were expecting this, Mike, but, um, can we go into that criteria a little bit? What is that, um, what's that criteria, or high level, like, what is it that you're looking for for the perfect client when you're kind of, uh, prospecting and/or selling?

Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna say the criteria and then you're gonna get a lot of, I'm sure a lot of people are gonna roll their eyes. The cri— the point of the criteria is not that you get, it's either this or never. Okay? This is what I identify as a good client. Just because a client is not a good client doesn't mean that you can't bill with them. It just means that they're not a good client. The point is, is that there's 5 criteria. Let's say you have 3 of that criteria and yes, I'll go into them. But let's say you have 3 of the criteria. And you've done, you've made money with them, you might be very well okay with keeping it at just the 3 criteria. Okay? But if you're looking to always improve a relationship with a client to get them to be a good client, by the way that I define it, and you may not define it this way, which is totally fine. That's the way I define it. Then you could always be pushing to get criteria 4, criteria 5, etc. Okay? And so it's a way to always be improving your relationship with the client because you could look up on, let's say you look up, you know, February 8th and you're like, it's a 2, is this a 2 criteria client? And all of a sudden you're dealing, you're still working with them in April and now they're a 1-criteria client. Well, you could say, well, why are they going backwards? Or you could say they were 2 and now they're 4. Okay. Why? We're going the right direction. Like again, clients don't wake up and say, how can I be Mike Anderson's good client? That's not what they're doing. What I'm saying is it's called client development cuz you have to develop the client.

Mm-hmm. That's interesting.

Follow me?

Yeah. Love that. Really good concept.

The 5 criteria. Okay. Number 1, is your fee signed? At 20% or higher. Okay.

Yeah.

With no refund attachment. Okay. Now this is my personal one. Okay. I'm sure there's a lot of people saying I do prorated refunds and there's arguments to it all. I'm not— this is not— I'm just saying this is my thing. Okay. Yeah. This is how I define it. Okay. So 20% or higher. No refund in the contract. Okay. Number 2, do they have at least 2 of the same open role? Okay. So not, I mean, I'm, I don't do construction, but let's just say you were working with a construction company. They're hiring a project manager and a superintendent. That would not be under the criteria of a good client. That's two separate roles, right? But if they were hiring two superintendents or two project managers, that would check that box. Are you following me?

Yes. Yeah. Can we quickly go into that? Like why two for that criteria?

Yeah. I just said, that's a good idea. It's mine. Thanks, Mike. I've never heard of that before, Mike.

Why are you looking for specifically two for a new like me? Like, what's the, what's the reason?

Yeah. Very, yeah, yeah. Very simple. Easy answer. It's simple. It's efficiency. It's cool. Let's say you guys are hiring for two, a podcaster and, and you're like, you want a left, I don't even know what the, a left-handed podcaster. What a horrible thing. I just thought of a left-handed podcaster. Yeah. And I'm like, and you're like, I want a left-handed podcaster and a right-handed podcaster. Okay. Yeah. Essentially I have to run two different searches to find a right-handed group and a left-handed group. If I, if you're hiring two left-handed podcasters, I can run one search and do two placements. It's an efficiency thing.

Love that. Love that. Yeah.

Cool. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Same, not the same exact amount of work, but a lot less work.

Mm-hmm.

Because once you're wash, rinse, repeat on a role, once you hire one, you can hire 8. Mm-hmm. Like, that's why my bread and butter, like with Chime, this was one of my best clients I've ever done. I don't even know. They had this, they had levels in software engineers. They were hiring L2 engineers like they were water and it was just like, okay, you're next, you're next, you're next, you're next, you're next. And once you find one, you can find 8. The problem is, is when it's got, okay, I need this and I need this and I need this and I need this. Now that's not a problem, it just is, it just makes it, it's harder to do. Now again, again, doesn't mean it's not a bad, it doesn't mean it's a bad client, it just means it's not a good client.

That's all I'm saying.

Yes, great.

Sorry, can we just also go, that's a brilliant answer, Mike, thank you. And just want to go back to the no refunds thing because that's, that's an interesting one for me because I do see a lot of recruiters that have refunds. So what's your thinking behind the no refunds? Um, why, why do you have that in place for a good client, do you think?

So 10 years ago I was working at an agency and I, I, I, this is kind of a cool story. I, this is gonna be a longer podcast, whatever. 10 years ago, 10 years ago I was working at an agency and I had this client in Chattanooga, Tennessee. True story. Chattanooga, Tennessee. And I had a guy that was in Canada that was a Ruby on Rails engineer looking to go to Chattanooga, Tennessee. And I was like new in the business, didn't know what I was doing. You know, I was like, oh, send candidates. Cross your fingers that they interview them and then maybe talk about a fee at some point and then maybe they'll pay you and you could just like have a good time at the bar that night, make it, you know, whatever. Like I was so new, so junior, so clueless, whatever. Okay. And so I finally end up getting a candidate to go there. They want the job, whatever, whatever, whatever. I don't negotiate the fee. You know, I wait till the last minute. Horrible, right? The client goes back and says, we want to hire your guy, but we think he's only worth $10 grand. They were going to pay him like $120,000. That's like less than a 10% fee. And I'm like, oh my God, $10 grand, let's go. Like, so excited, right? So anyway, the point is, is that I went back. So I was like, I need to get approval for that. So I called, I reached out, walked over to my boss and he was just like, no, I'm not doing that. Like, you know that you should never, ever, ever let an interview go down without a contract in place. Like, we've talked about this. And at that time I was like 3 months in and he had talked about that a lot. And I knew fundamentally, but of course I didn't do it. And here we are. I'll save you the long and the short of it. I ended up doing the deal because I was able to tell them no. And I got the contract up and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Now the point is, after that happened, I was very embarrassed that I had gotten to that point because he had sort of like called me out in front of people, which was rightfully so because it needed to happen and it was good that it happened. But he told me something I'll never forget. He said, you need to have the bare minimums at which you will do business and never go below them. If you work below 20% once, you'll work below 20% for the rest of your life. You'll always do it. And for me, I decided, okay, then that means I'm never giving a refund away ever. Like, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Because my thought process is this, is the onus is on me to get the candidate in the door. It's the onus is on the client to keep the candidate in the house.

Yeah. Okay. Love that.

That is where— that's what I believe. Now, there's a lot of arguments against that, you know, and I understand a lot of people say that, well, what's the argument for a prorated refund would be? You don't have to find a replacement. I understand that fundamentally, okay? But I want that option myself if I ever decide that I want to give the money back because the replacement's impossible to find. I don't want it to be in the contract that I have to give the money back. Are you following me?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I have a feeling if most recruiters could do it, they would. Yes, just because they're doing it because they have to as opposed to wanting to. That's my, uh, it's my intuition. Um, but yeah, awesome.

That's really, uh, on my own it, you know, I mean, I, I stuck to this my last 10 years of my agency life, but I'm saying when you work at an agency, you're at the behest of a lot of people above you saying you got to do this, you got to do this, you got to do this. You know, when you're on your own, it's kind of like, dude, whatever your minimums are. Um, so anyways, there's that. But like my minimums, right? I'm never working below 20%. I'm never working— I, I never want to pay a bill more than 30 days, uh, the day the candidate starts. And I never want to have to give a refund away, uh, ever. And so I just walk away from the business. Like, it's just not, it's not worth it to me to do that. It's just not. It doesn't make sense.

I love that. Yeah, that's really good. I just want to go back to our criteria.

Yeah, we, we, yeah, we're finished.

We are number 3. So we got fees signed at 20%, um, 2 of the same open roll. Yeah. No refund.

Yeah.

Yeah. Fees signed at 20%, no refund. Number 2 was 2 of the same open roll. And we, I think we were number 3. Oh, number 3.

Yeah.

Yep.

Number 3. Okay. So number 3, I call it, um, You call it, you call it interview frequency, but I'll explain what that means. So we're recording this on October 25th, and here in Tennessee, it's 11:31 AM. Okay? So if you said to me, hey, Mike, is waterbottle.com, is that a good client? Okay? And I was basing it off frequency or criteria number 3 would sound like this. In the last week, so in other words, the, on October 18th, a week ago until now, have I had at least one interview occur with a candidate of mine? And not or, and simultaneously in the next week. So November 1st at 11:31 AM, do I have one interview scheduled? Okay. So I have in the last week, I've had an interview occur with a candidate and it doesn't have to be the same candidate. It could be different candidates. But in the last week, if I had an interview and the next week I have an interview. So if I had an interview go down last Friday at 2 PM and I have an interview scheduled for Wednesday at 3 PM and you ask me that right now, are they a good client? The answer is yes. If you ask me that on Monday, they're not a good client. Hmm. Are you following me?

Yeah.

Yeah. So like, it's because clients are fickle. I mean, you could be a client's best friend at 10 o'clock on Tuesday and they could hate you by Wednesday at 3. Like, I mean, it's just the way it goes. So like, the point is, is that you— the point of the good client criteria is that you're always assessing the health of your client, of your clients. So you could say I gotta do business development or I'm dialed in with good clients. I gotta go, go, go, gadget, recruit and find me some candidates. I gotta put some butts in some seats and make some stuff happen. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Understood. Interesting. Can we— I'm still confused of why you do number— what's the reason for number 3? Is it purely to test the client relationship of how warm they are? Like what's the—

Real simple. It's real simple. If you look back at the dawn of time, I'm guessing at least for my career, which is like a going on 11 years now. You like interviews have always been the telltale sign of a client who's not window shopping, right? Because you're assuming you have a contract signed because you shouldn't have interviews going out without a contract. So they've signed the contract saying we'll pay you. They're interviewing people, which means the candidate's putting their best foot forward. Hopefully the client's potentially liking them. Like it's just when you have interviews occurring, you can assume that, that a deal is probably around the corner. So it's interview frequency, right? The problem is, is that the interview you know, here and then they interview in 3 months and it's just like you can't count on them. You just can't, right? I'm talking about, remember, this is for good clients. Again, if they don't have number 3, doesn't mean you can't build there, just means they're not a good client.

Yeah, understood.

Cool.

That makes perfect sense. And number 4, Mike, should we hit number 4?

Let's go. Okay. Number 4. All right. And this is okay. There's 2 parts to number 4. Okay. And you can do it however you want based on whatever. I changed number 4 when COVID hit. Okay, I changed number 4 when COVID hit because I saw what, what was gonna happen, which was everybody's gonna be working remotely. So you can, there are 2 ways to do it. You can either have a remote hiring, a company that's hiring remotely. Okay, so that's one of the criteria that you could use it. You could do that. Or if they're in, if they're an in-office local company, you can interchange that with, do they have 3 interviews or less? 3 interviews or less to make a hire. In other words, if they need to go down to 4th hire or they need to have lunch to do a victory lap or all this stuff, again, it just does— it just means they're not a good client. Because in theory, a good client is interviewing often, multiple roles, signing fees, ready to go, making hires. Like, it's just— you should be able to do multiple deals with good clients. Like, that's the idea. Make sense?

Yeah, makes sense.

So that's, that's where that comes from. Now, in addition to The remote or the 3 interviews, whichever one you want to lean on. Okay. And generally speaking, if they're remote, they're going to be probably 3 interviews or less anyway. So I just want to be clear on that. Yeah. In addition to that, all offers go through you, not direct client to candidate. Hmm.

Cool.

Very important. Very important. Million reasons for that, but very important. If that makes sense to you, whoever's watching this, then you've probably been around and you understand the value of you making offers and you closing candidates. Versus a client going direct. Okay. So there's that piece of it, but that's criteria number 4.

Quick one, Mike. How many of the people that you speak to do the opposite so they don't have the interview come through them? Is that quite a common thing that recruiters do?

It's very common when they first start working with me and when they keep working with me, it tends to not be common anymore.

Oh, interesting.

They understand the value.

Sorry, Mike. Sorry. Go ahead, mate.

No, I just, they understand the value of it. So it's, but it's very common Because in, in recruiters' minds, it's a difficult thing to say, and I don't know why this is, but it's a difficult thing to say to a client, hey, all offers for my candidates go through me. Like they just, they feel that that's an awkward thing to say. And I'm telling, and I, I mean, I'm a big guy, like I'm not, I'm a firm believer. I'm a firm believer in, um, in just saying exactly how you operate upfront in the initial client meeting. Right? Yes. And it's very like, there's a lot less stuff left to chance.

Yes, I love that. And again, just for a noob, a noob listening, what are all the things that now can go correctly when the offer goes through, goes straight to you as opposed to the client? How does that change the playing field?

Okay, so a recruiter's game is a leverage game. It's always a leverage game. A recruiter's game is a leverage game. It's a leverage game. An agency recruiter's game is a leverage game. Honestly, maybe an internal too, but it's a leverage game. Okay. You're playing the game at a high level. You have a client here and a candidate here. Okay. And it's not— you're not doing anything shady, anything underhanded. You're playing with your cards face up. You're playing, you're playing the game as, as transparently as you can. You are.

Yeah.

But there's also a sales component to this. You've got to make money. And what happens all the time, right? Forever recruiting will always be a client doesn't want to pay a lot of money for talent. And talent wants to get paid a lot of money and they want to have a lot of opportunities. Like, that's just the way that it is. It's just human nature. Okay? You can put that, you can plug that into any industry and you could, that's fact. Okay? So if that is, if you're, if you're coming from that assumption, then the recruiting leverage that the client wants, should utilize is, hey, we'll give you the offer because you can hold it until you figure out exactly when they're closed and if they're gonna keep interviewing, if they're gonna do a bunch of other stuff, if they're gonna, if they want to offer shop, if they just want to sit on it. Like all that kind of stuff. Once the candidate has an offer, all leverage is gone. Like, all leverage is gone. They can sit on it, they can think about it, they can, you know, all the stuff. Now, if you've done this the correct way and you've had conversations with the candidate leading up to this, you should never— the truth is, you should never be at an offer stage unless you can close the candidate. Okay, are you following me?

Yeah.

Like, I have a rule, and this is a personal rule, okay? That I, that I follow, but I do this thing called ARPO, and the R stands for rank. And my rule is this, is that unless we're in the final— unless my client ranks as in the top 2 to the candidate's job search, I'm not going to schedule that final interview because the odds of closing it when I'm number 3, 4, or 5 in their job search is slim to like none. Like none. And so it's not that I pull them out of process. I just say, hey, go finish your interview process with the other companies. And then if you make sense, come back to me and let's talk about it. But I don't wanna set up and clog up an interview funnel for my client. Like the stuff that I'm saying, it might sound harsh and aggressive and it's, but it's not cuz it's all in the way that you lay it up. And like, it's, it's, if, if you, if you've had, if you build relationships with clients and you build relationships with your candidates and they understand the way you're operating, Like, this is not— these are not difficult conversations. People think that the way that you operate is harsh when all of a sudden you take a stand at the end because you never took a stand at the beginning. So it's like a good cop, bad cop thing. And now that you look like Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, or Mr. Hyde, I don't know, Jekyll and Hyde, two different people. But if you're the same way throughout the process, the candidate's like, yeah, you know, it makes sense. Like, 80% of the candidates of mine that come out of process— in other words, they start an interview process with my client. And then they come out of that process is not because they said, hey, I don't want to go to your client anymore. It's because they've started saying things that are like, this isn't jiving, it doesn't make sense. Hey, let's have a conversation. Let's just not put you in this process. I don't, I don't have no problem telling my client because remember, the value add to my client is time saved and sending placeable talent. This candidate is showing they're not closable. Okay, they might be placeable, which means they can do the job, but they're not closable. They're actually not going to leave. Or they don't like my client or whatever. And so if my value add to my client is saving time, it means I'm not clogging up interview funnels just to put nice people in front of them, but then they get underneath the Christmas tree at Christmas Day and it's a whole bunch of empty boxes. You following me?

Yeah, completely, man. Love that. And the kind of overall theme I'm getting, Mike, is that the, the what you're laying, you're basically doing all the heavy lifting up front so then there's no surprises down the, down the end of the road. You're telling clients exactly how you work, exactly how you do things and not giving them any surprises. And that's a better way of working, isn't it?

So this is, this is the whole, this is the whole freedom of recruiting is people think it's like sales is not— sales has never been taking someone who says no to you and being like, nope, that's the wrong answer. You got to say yes. That's not sales. Sales is getting someone to go where they're already going to go just a little bit faster. That's what sales is. It's always been that way. You're not good enough to change a candidate's mind. I'm not good enough to change a candidate's mind. I don't even try to do it. All I do is get information in the beginning, find out what they're looking for, why they're looking, da da da da da. I try to fit them into a mold, and if that story stays the same, 95% of the time I can place them. Okay. But when stuff starts changing, hey, this isn't making sense. You told me this before, you're telling me this now. It's totally fine if it doesn't make sense, but I was born at night, not last night. So let's talk about it. Like, what's going on? And then, you know what I'm saying? You start to poke holes in their story. And then, like, if they respect you and understand the way that you're operating, the way that you're paid, And you tell this, I tell clients that candidates all the time, I don't care. I mean, I care, but it doesn't make, it doesn't affect me if you decide not to go to an interview or not take a job with my client or do any of that. It doesn't affect me. What affects me is when I don't see it coming and then I lose access to the role because the client think the value add that I told my client I provide to them, I now no longer provide it. And now they go with another recruiter to fill that role. I don't need you to take the role. I just need access to fill the role with somebody else if it's not you. So if you can respect that, I'm happy to represent you.

Makes complete sense. You're safeguarding your relationship with your client by that. Cool. Yeah.

It's the whole reason that I have the relationship that I do with the client. And, and, and the thing is, is that the candidates, what they may realize sometimes or may not realize sometimes is that the recruiter's relationship with the client is a value add to them massively, massively. So, and that's how I keep it intact for the next candidate, et cetera. Man, we were going so far left and right.

I love it, man. It's absolutely gold you're sharing, Mike. I think we are on, correct me if I'm wrong, number 5.

Yeah, number 5. So you got number 4.

We got number 4.

Okay. All right. Number 5. Okay. Number 5, 24-hour communication.

Okay.

24-hour communication. What that means is not what you think it means. It doesn't mean you send an email on Thursday at 2 and they got back to you by Friday at 2. It does not mean that. Okay, what it means is it— and I'm— and this is gonna sound aggressive, but again, it's just, it's a goal. Okay, breathe. It, it means that it doesn't matter if they have tickets to a baseball game, if their son just graduated college, if they're sick, if they're— it, it means that at any point, Christmas, New Year's, Fourth of July, whatever it is, okay, they're on vacation, if in 24 hours you tell them on an email, on a text, on a LinkedIn message, whatever, you send them a Telegram, whatever you do that you need to get them on the phone, they can get on the phone with you within 24 hours. If you can do that, for any reason, you have a client that respects— I shouldn't say that they don't respect you if they don't, but they really respect you. They really want to do business with you and they really value what you bring to the table. And that would make them a really good client. And here's what I'll say. If you have none of the other 4, the first 4, but you have number 5, you have a chance to build a really good relationship still.

Interesting. I was just about to ask out of all of them, which one is like hanging front of mind? Is, is number 5 the most important one? That's really important.

5, because you, you might, they might not be a client because they never signed a fee. But if you have a relationship with that hiring manager where you can call them anytime, the moment that that gaslight turns on and he's ready to hire, he's signing that fee. Like, you know what I'm saying? Because that relationship's there. That's what I'm talking about. And I preach it left and right all the time. Relationship over transaction. And the reality of it is, is that there's a lot of people that think they have great email relationships. I don't know about you, but like, I've been on dating apps for a while. I don't email people I'm trying to ask on a date. I just, you know, it's probably a bad analogy, but the point is it's hard to build relationships over email and stuff like that. You gotta have some sort of whatever. So what I tell, what I tell people that all the time that I work with is if you got a client within an hour of you, try to get some face-to-face time within the first month of breaking that relationship, like opening that relationship, try to get some face-to-face time. Okay. If you can do the job order call, the client intake call in person, that's number one. Number 2 is on video, and number 3 is over the phone, but it should never be over email, ever.

Cool, cool, cool. Love that. And I'm just curious, uh, Mike, because my feeling is a lot of people would struggle to ask for that. And I think how you ask for it is part of the goal of what you do, isn't it? I'm sure there's lots of gold, but how would I— if I was a recruiter and I'd never asked a client for 24, that rule number 5, how would I phrase it to them in order to get their buy-in for, for that specific thing?

Real, it's, it's real simple. It's, it's assuming that you're going to work with the client. In other words, they have urgency or you want, you wanna get the 24 hours. Okay. You wanna get that. The way you would ask for it is real simple is, hey, I got a question. A lot of times in this, in the market that we're in, job searches change, candidate stuff updates. You know, I get updates left and right and I've got relationships with my candidates just like I have a relationship with you. So when I get a new piece of information, I wanna share that with you and I wanna get that to you in quick, as quickly as possible so we can strategize on the best way to move forward. You know, based on what that information is, etc. Okay. I could send you— I have no problem sending you reasonable updates over email. Just quick stuff. That's not a big deal. I don't need to call you every 10 minutes, but if I need to get you on the phone within 24 hours, can I do so? And I'll just ask. And I'll say this, trust me that I'm not going to ruin that gift that you're going to give me with wasting time with invaluable information. Trust me that if I'm asking to get on the phone with you, it's because it's worth it for you to know what I'm about to tell you.

Really interesting. What's their reaction most of the time when you ask that, Mike? Is there like a really high acceptance?

Usually like, oh, they do what they do, what they all do. And it's fine because they're like not used to that. That's an aggressive ask. I know that. I'm aware of that. But then they're like, let's just start over email and kind of see how it goes. What, you know, whatever. And then I'll do what I do, which is like, all right, all right, fair. I'll make a deal. If I do a placement with you guys, then I get the 24-hour communication deal. And I'll do this, like, on— I'll be like, you know, kind of do this deal. Like, I'll, I'll make it playful and fun. Like, I'll get something out of it. Like, I'm always saying, you know, hey, I don't have any problem sending you PDFs that are resumes, but if those PDFs don't turn into invoices in like a month, we got problems.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.

I'm saying, like, I'll— like, I say things like that because I want them to know that I'm 100% for-profit. I'm here to make money. Like, I don't— I— yes, I'm customer service, but I'm also not like— but I'm not here to cater. I'm here to like, you— if you have it, if you have— if you need something, I'm ready to go. Like, let's go. If you're a window shopper, wrong guy. Yes. And I'll tell them that. I'll be like, you don't want me as a recruiter if you're a window shopper, just kind of seeing what's out there, kind of just sort of fiddling around and you want to figure it out. You want to take your time to hire because I'm going to annoy the bejesus out of you because I don't have access to 28 candidates. I don't have any. I don't have a database, right? I got LinkedIn. I'm looking at the same people you got. The only difference is I'm a killer salesman to try to get them in front of you. And if I do get them in front of you, we gotta strike while the iron's hot. And that means I'm gonna be calling. So if it's not the right thing, totally fine, but just tell me now.

Love that. Love that. Absolute gold in that 5 criteria. I hope everyone is listening carefully. And, uh, I, I learned a lot as well, mate. That was, uh, pretty crazy. So we've got the criteria for the client stuff. I would love to kind of—

hold on, I got—

sorry, there's more. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead, mate. Go ahead.

So I gave you 5 criteria of a good client. Okay. 20%, no refund, 2 of the same open role, interview frequency last week, next week, either on the— all offers go through you and either have remote openings or 3 interviews or less. And number 5, 24-hour communication. That's how you make a good client.

Yes.

How do they become a great client? They have all 5 of those things. And you've done a deal there before. Okay, you've done a deal there before and you have all 5 of those things. It's sorry, you know, I know I got my daughter's karate class, but like, I got to recruit. I'm just telling them like, that's, that's, that's house on fire.

That sounds like a golden goose. That's what it sounds like.

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's when, that's when they're like, hey, let's go, let's go, let's go. And if you're not available, they're going to say, let's go, let's go, let's go to somebody else. Understood.

Yeah, understood, Mike. Awesome. That's, uh, absolute gold, mate. So we've kind of covered, uh, well, we have covered in a lot of detail the criteria for clients. Can we shift over to candidates now? What criteria do you have for candidates to make sure they're not, um, you know, dragging you along and playing a game with you? Are there any key things that you find always trips up recruiters?

You know what's funny is— I mean, I do, and we're going to talk about it— but you know what's funny is Right. We're on a podcast. I'm like, hey, what are we gonna talk about beforehand? And we're not even on what we were gonna talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Rolling. So, whatever. It's great. The best stuff is improvisation. Okay. Candidates. I'm big on this. Very, very big on this. Obviously, what am I not big on? But like, okay. So candidates. All right? There is— we are on the agency side. We're 100% commission-based. Okay? There are a lot of great candidates out there and are really nice people. But the reality of it is, is unless you are dealing with people that are ready to take jobs, you will end up like your mortgage, your landlord, your bills aren't gonna wait because you have good relationships with candidates, but they're not ready to move. Like your bills aren't changing. So you've gotta work with people that can get you paid and get you paid now. It doesn't mean you're rude. It doesn't mean you're untruthful. It doesn't mean anything. It means you deal with people transparently that are ready to go. Okay? And it is totally okay. To talk to a candidate and to not represent them. If your goal to— if your goal when you— and I'll say this about clients too. If every call you get on with a client and/or a candidate, you end up wanting to sign a contract with or wanting to represent, you're not asking the right questions. You are not asking the right questions. It shouldn't— there's no way you're gonna go 100%. You shouldn't if you're asking the right questions. Like I said, good recruiters find out the answer. Great— eventually, good recruiters find out the answer eventually. Great recruiters find the answer find out the answer now. Okay. The main criteria that I go by is I have a 3-tier system that I look at a candidate. Okay. There's 3 tiers.

Cool.

A tier 1 candidate is information. There is just somebody you talk to, you gather information, you might get some notes on them, what they're looking for, maybe find out that they're, you know, they're unhappy because of something, or maybe they're just kind of checking what's out there or whatever. They're just basically— you have a relationship with them, you got them on the phone, but they're not a serious contender to make a move. And you've identified that by asking about their RFL, their reason for leaving. Their RFL doesn't make sense. Like, they're just like, well, you know, it's, I'm not unhappy here. Like, whatever. Here's, here's a general rule that you can kind of take to the bank. Pretty much take to the bank. If you have a role, if you, if a candidate has an itch that you can't scratch, you shouldn't be repping.

Can you give me an example what you mean by that, Mike?

Yeah, I'm commuting 2 hours to work. Oh, dude, let me tell you about my clients that are 3 hours away. Like, what? Did you hear what he said? Like, I'm just saying, like, that's just bait. Like, I mean, that's an obvious one, but like, that's my point, right? So like, now a great salesman can take a candidate's RFL and they can mold that into the way that they pitch their candidate, their client. Right? So again, that's, that, there's, it doesn't mean you're being slimy or anything. It means you're taking the RFL. You're creating a quality understanding of what it is that they're trying to solve for, the thing that's bothering them the most. And by the way, money is not an RFL. Okay?

Oh, wow.

If money, if money is an RFL, then every person on the, in the world, every person in the entire world is on the market. Mm-hmm. Tommy? Yeah.

What's the strongest RFL? What's the one where you're like, this is a golden candidate because he said this 3?

They, They're looking to their desk on the right and the guy, the guy to the left of them just got laid off last week. They don't have sales. They, they have— they haven't been paid their bonus in however many months. Like there's, there's that commute is a big one. Benefits. My wife, I just found out my wife's pregnant and I have to— you know, there's no— we have— I need better benefits so I can take care of, you know, the family. My Boss is a complete fill in the blank and whatever. Like, you know, you, there's just those ones are like, and like you can solve for those, right? The, the technology that I'm working on is massively outdated. I don't see us making it past next year because they're not willing to upgrade. Like whatever. Right now there are RFLs where I'll say, hey, they'll say, hey, I'm looking for, you know, I really wanna work on, let's say I'm talking to software engineer, I'm working on the backend. I really wanna work on the frontend. Right? And I know they're a good engineer. Like, just as excited as a client of mine would be to get them, their company is going to be equally disappointed to lose them. So when he says, why are you leaving? Well, I want to work on the front end. Okay, go work on our front end. Hey Mike, I'm not going to take your job anymore. Bye-bye, $40,000. Like, no. So like, you got to make sure that what their, their RFL can't be handled by a counteroffer. So when you deal with counteroffer on the very first call, I'm looking for more money. Go ask your boss for a raise. I wanna be on a different team. Ask for— I want a different boss. Can you ask the, the, the owner of the company to be on a different team? Like, you wanna check these things out to make sure that you're dealing with somebody who's serious about leaving.

Brilliant.

You know what I'm saying?

100%. So you will actively actually ask them, Mike. You'll say, go and ask your boss.

Wow.

That's crazy.

But think about this, right? Think about it from my perspective. I don't have, I don't have a database of 28 candidates in, in the back door that I can just shove, shove, shove, shove, shove, shove, shove. So this guy doesn't work out. Great. Got the next one. Like, I only can represent what I can And remember, my value add to my client is I'm saving time. So if I'm saving time and they interview somebody, go through all the way in process, get to an offer stage, and the candidate stays away because of counteroffer, because their issue got solved at their current company, what did I just waste with my client all that time? That's my point. Now again, you are never gonna mitigate 100% of risk ever. You're never going to. There's no, there's not a world. There's, we're dealing with people. There's never a world where you're gonna deal with 100% ever. Okay. Yeah. But there is a world where if you were at 70%, you might be at 80%, then 83%. You know what I mean?

Yes.

It's kind of like that old thing. If I'm walking to you guys in the UK right now from Tennessee and I walk halfway and then I walk halfway again, I walk halfway again, I'm never gonna get there, but I'm always getting closer.

Understood.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, 100%. I feel like that process in its own, just asking them to go ask their boss for the county office and dealing with the counteroffer at the very beginning could probably solve like 70% of people's counteroffer issues. I think that's genius, honestly. I think that's brilliant. I love that.

Yeah, it's— I mean, yeah. And you get burned by a counteroffer one time, right? You're expecting to get $50 grand or $40 grand or $30 grand or whatever your commission check's gonna be, and you get burned by a counteroffer, which every recruiter in America has been. Every recruiter everywhere has been burned by a counteroffer. Like, I've been burned. It's never— you're never gonna— like, it's always gonna be there. Yeah, but like, you get burned by it once, you always— there's usually a thing where you can look back. Sometimes there's not, and that's when you, that's when you just did everything you could. But usually there's a time when you're like, I knew I should have asked that question. I knew I should have harped on that. I knew that thing like 3 weeks ago that I kind of overlooked, and hopefully it wasn't there, you know? Yeah, like, I— yeah, anyways, I go on and on about that. Okay, the only criteria, RFL.

Yes, RFL.

RFL checks out. Once you figure out the RFL checks out, a great way to figure out if the RFL checks out is to ask this: Hey, Steve, Susie, whatever, sounds like you want to leave because the commute is 2 hours. All right. That's what you're telling me, correct? Yep. Okay. If I find you something closer to home, are you willing to take a pay cut for that? And just ask them. And they're like, oh yeah, totally. That's a solidified RFL. You know what I'm saying?

Yes. Interesting. Okay.

You can see how solidified the RFL is, right? And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. I can't take a pay cut. Like, I just can't. You know, I pay my bills at my current salary. Great. Are you willing to take a lateral move? Yeah, I can take a lateral move. Great. What are you currently at so I can make sure I get you that minimum? $140,000, whatever. Right. Like, that's the idea. Now, again, I know there's rules around asking different stuff. So like, just however you do that, you do that. I'm not, you know, I don't want to start a whole war on that because that's not my— but yeah, that's the idea, right? And the way that I generally— my focus is always to solve for ROFO. That's like, that's just what I've done. That's just where, you know, again, you can throw money at any problem and you can close like whatever. Now I will say this, sometimes you'll get RFL. So the 3 options you have are RFL, you solve for RFL, then you can either get a cut, RFL plus pay cut, RFL plus lateral, RFL plus raise. Those are your 3 options.

That's it, right?

So you have RFL plus pay cut, lateral, raise. If somebody has an RFL, but then they also want to raise, It's not like you gotta check if the RFL makes sense, but they also might be massively underpaid. Like massively, right? Haven't gotten a raise in whatever. Like it doesn't mean that they're out of the question. It just means you have to dig. Like this is the stuff that tells you what you're dealing with. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

And here's, and I'll say this, okay? If you're dealing with a candidate and you, how this often works is you recruiter here, candidate here. Okay. Big guard up in the middle. The best recruiters that I know are the ones that can get that thing to go down as quickly as possible. So the information isn't like this, but it's like this. It's free flowing back and forth. And when that conversation is free flowing back and forth where it's just, no, man, it doesn't make sense. Okay, cool. Yeah. Let me explain why. Like, you have a really good relationship with a candidate that you know that you can place. Okay. Now again, they might be closable, but they might not be placeable. Can they do the job? Maybe they're doing something, whatever. Like you have to figure that out. Placeability is, can they do the job? Are they doing the job currently of what you're asking them to do? Not in like within the last probably year or 2 years, right? Not somebody that I, you know, I was a baseball player 12 years ago and I wanna be a baseball player again. It's like, okay, well, you probably lost some skills. Like, that's the idea. So that's placeability. Closability is actually the stuff that goes beyond, right? Resume matching, placeability. Conversation, closability.

Pretty interesting.

Cool.

Yeah, insane value there, mate.

There's more on that, by the way, but that's fine.

Oh no, go on, Mike. If you have something in your head, just throw it out there.

I mean, not inside of my head, but there's 4 main criteria. You want to figure out RFL, you want to figure out compensation. You want to fit— this is what tells you, okay? RFL, compensation. You want to figure out in their current job search, have they had any offers? And if they have, doesn't mean you can't rep them. You just want to figure out why they haven't taken them. In other words, are they, are they a window shopper? I don't know. Right? Same kind of deal when you're talking to a client. Have you guys made any offers in your current search? Yeah, we made 19. How many got declined? 19. Why? They're all lowball. Not gonna make money with that client. Like, that's what I'm saying. These are things, okay? Well, we didn't get on the client side on this. So that's number 3. Have you had any offers in your current search? And number 4, hey, if the right opportunity for the right money was right in front of you right now, are you ready to take it or do you need to see everything else through that you're currently interviewing at? And whatever the answer to that question is, it doesn't matter the answer. Don't lead the witness. It's an objective question. When you get that answer, it tells you how to play your hand because you should know that if they told you that they want to see everything else through, then you want to go last on final interviews.

Cool.

If they say that, and again, again, we have that rule on the top too, but like, these are the things that tell you what you're dealing with. So you have a tier 1 candidate, which is just information. You gather all of what I just told you.

Yeah.

Tier 2 is information plus they gave you their resume. In other words, hey, this is what I'm looking for. I don't have anything for you right now, but here's my resume. If you find anything, let me know. Okay? That's tier 2. So information on one, information plus resume tier 2. Tier 3 is information plus resume plus submission. So got all the information, got the resume, you're submitting to the client.

Wicked.

So when I do, when I have a candidate, I'm looking obviously for my tier 3s, but if I, but not every candidate's at tier 3 because they're not already moved and there's no way that every client I have is gonna solve every candidate's or scratch every candidate's itch. Now, there is something to be said for taking a chance on things. Oftentimes, what I'll do is, hey, I'll let you do like a first interview. Like, let's say I, I wanna find out where they're interviewing and they're, they're like, I don't wanna share that with you. It's like, okay, I understand that. Let me explain. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why I wanna know that. Why I wanna know that is because once you get a job offer and you take it, I wanna go after those companies for business. I'm telling the truth. I do. Okay. Tell, tell the candidate that. I have no problem telling the candidate that.

Okay, cool. Yeah.

I also, I also wanna know because I wanna know what I'm up against. I'm 100% commission-based. I wanna know my chance to make money. Okay? And I also wanna know, I also wanna tell exactly what my client, what they're up against. I'm trying to save them time and they're gonna wanna know. They don't pay me to just send resumes. They pay me for a lot more that's on that, which is closability. I'll say this, the more free-flowing of information with that, the higher the opportunity to close that candidate. When they're, when they're naturally guarded with you, you're gonna have, it's, it's going to lead to a hard time. Doing it. It's almost like when you negotiate an agreement with a client and they're like, you're like 25% and they're like, can we do 17? And you're like, no, we can't do 17. They're like, okay, 18. Like, and just you're— they're nickel and diming you for everything, you know. Even if you do get the contract signed, when you get to the offer stage and you need $145K to close a candidate, they're going to give you $138K and say, get it done. Because that's what they've shown to be. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Uninteresting.

So again, if they tell you who they are, you can kind of, you, you, you should believe them. Fact check them throughout the process. If they show you who they are once they, once you've seen it. Okay. So oftentimes when I have a candidate that I'm working with, like, and I think that they're a good fit, I start to see buying signs with them. The client's starting to like them. This might be after interview 1, maybe definitely before, definitely before the final. But sometime in the middle of process, maybe this might be our 3rd or 4th call and I'm talking to them and I'm, and I'm sort of starting to feel like they might be the right candidate for this role, whatever. Oftentimes if I'm unsure, I'm like, you know what, they're telling me the right stuff, but I don't, it's just something that recruiter intuition, something's off. It's just not, not vibing. And if you, if you've been recruiting for 10 minutes, you know what I'm talking about, recruiting intuition. But like, it's something's off. What I'll do is I'll oftentimes I'll call a candidate at a random hour. Random time, unscheduled, to see if they answer. Because if they do, that means they value my call.

So that's a good thing.

I also say this, hey, just, just curiosity, just asking you a question. What if my client is crazy busy, uh, before a final interview? I'm just thinking out loud here. Would you be willing to, uh, to take a PTO day, uh, to do an interview? And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, I know they want my job. Interesting. Yeah, it's just buying language. Or I'll say this, hey, I know you have another interview on Monday, but what if my client can only do that interview on Monday? Would you be willing to cancel that other one or move that one and do mine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's fine. Cool.

So you're testing to see how warm they are, basically.

How what?

How warm they are. Are you testing to see how warm?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just trying to— it's just a temperature check. That's it. I'm literally just trying to see here because again, like, I'm trying to mitigate as much risk as possible.

Yes.

And I got to tell you, like, I've been— I've been— I've had way too many deals not happen because I didn't ask what I needed to ask. And I just don't want to be a slave to that. Like, and I'm sure that there are deals that didn't happen in my 11 years because I didn't take the chance and send the offer and just pray and whatever. But more often than not, I've ran a business that I understand where I'm going to make money, how I'm going to make money. And like, and the clients keep coming back because at least the information I've given them is accurate and I appreciate that.

Yeah, I love that, Mike. What you have done that's so, so interesting and amazing to me is that You have systemized like almost every element of your process, and I still think recruiters have the hardest job in the world, which is the fact that their, their product can change their mind at any point. Even more of a reason to systemize your process in this game of recruitment, and I think you've just done that incredibly well. Like every point has a system and something that you're aiming for and makes it more predictable. Obviously you can't have 100% predictability, but I think you've done that incredibly well, mate. Really fascinating.

Yeah, I think, I think, you know, there's, there's, there's a million things and, and, and I, I just think the right questions need to be asked. I just, I, I just, it always goes back to the right questions. It just, it just is, you know, people and, and, and the thing is, is that if they feel, if, if whoever's on the other end of it, client or candidate, and they feel like you're just interrogating them, like they are often gonna give you one-word answers, not give you what you want. But if you can be, pull your guard down and be like, hey dude, I'm asking you because I got to know if I'm going to make money here. Like, I'm being honest with you. Like, and oftentimes I'll ask the candidate this. I'll be like, hey, if you were me, how would you close you? And I'll just shut up and listen. I love that. Hey, if you were me, how would you close you? And sometimes they're like, uh, give me like 17 weeks. And you're like, okay, so you're not ready to go. Got it. Like, whatever, you know, who knows? Like, I just— but I just asked that. I'll just let them talk. Be like, hey dude, I ask this kid this question to clients all the time. Hey, what's your biggest pet peeve with recruiters? And just shut up and listen. They're like, oh my God, you guys send us people that aren't real, or you guys inflate salaries, or you guys, you know, waste our time with interviews that aren't serious, or you guys are friggin spamming our people, or you're, you know, I even had one client say, you guys are placing people with us and then you're also recruiting people out of us, which, by the way, is horrible. Don't— that's horrible business. Don't do that. But I'm saying, like, it's like— and so oftentimes when I do that, And then I'm talking to them. I'm like, all right, so let me get this straight. Whoever I'm talking to, you're telling me all I got to do is tell you the truth and just whatever I say I'm going to do, do it, and you'll get value out of me? Yeah. All right, cool. Like, honestly, recruiting comes down to what you learned in fourth grade from your mom. Tell the truth, show up on time, and just do what you say you're going to do. And like, that stuff is valuable. It's a lost art in today's world because everybody's trying to weasel a deal. And it's like, dude, you don't need— you actually don't need to weasel deals at all if you ask the right questions. The other part too is when you do weasel deals and you have a 90-day guarantee, you're just like, please don't quit. Please don't quit. Please don't find out who this guy really is. Like all that stuff. And it's like, dude, like that guy. Anyway, I go on and on. This is just—

Dude, this has been an absolute masterclass in how to manage clients and how to manage candidates. I'm going to save the information, Mike, because I want to bring you back for a round 3. So I want to, I want to leave the audience with the absolute gold that you shared today. There was one thing that I know you wanted to share. Um, you've had dozens of people reach out to you off the podcast because of your coaching, um, and I, I have recommended another dozen to you because you're so good at what you do. I know you have a new service coming out. Do you want to explain to the audience what, what you have at the moment?

Yeah, so, uh, you know, obviously with coaching I can only be one-on-one with people. There's only so many— so much time in the day. But I have a lot of people that have asked for Do you have anything that you can share with us or anything that we could do? And since I've given— I've realized that business development, ARPO, client management, job orders, client meetings, all that stuff is pretty universal. And I have a pretty decent process at that. I've created a course. It's about 4 hours, 4 and a half, 4, 4 and a half hours of content. That's honestly, it's just me talking to a camera, which is kind of weird. But like, I'm just explaining as best I can my business development, my sales approach, you know, candidates, just a lot more in-depth stuff here. And we're probably going to be— my best friend Andy and I helped me build that. And I'll probably be launching that here. Today's October 25th. The goal is to get it launched by, I'd say, mid-November, maybe Thanksgiving at the latest. We don't know what pricing is. I have no clue. I don't even know what we're talking about there. So we're working on that. But just You know, if you have interest in it, um, I'd love to figure out how we're going to sell it. I mean, I know how we're going to sell it, but it'll be on the website and you can find information. I'll try to put something out on LinkedIn or whatever, but that's going to be launching a coaching course. It's going to be reasonably priced, and I think you'll find some really valuable information, uh, on that course, uh, that should help you out.

So yeah, mate, if I was a recruiter, I would absolutely snap that up. Um, I think from what's out there at the moment, you know, I say this, recruiters should be going to recruiters like they, they go to all these, you know, these random people for help with recruiting advice, and actually they should be going to recruiters like you, Mike. So me and Sam are going to do our best to sell that as much as possible for you because, um, we just know people are going to get a ton of value. Mike's literally the only person that I'm like, go speak to Mike. If they don't buy from me and Ben, I'm like, yeah, it's exactly what I say as well. It's how valuable he is and how good you are, what you do, Mike. I like, I wholeheartedly recommend your services because I know they're going to make money. And it makes me look good as well. I'm like, yeah, I reckon I recommended Mike and you're making money.

Yeah.

So I really didn't time the lighting correctly. I'm like, I'm going to completely— can you still see my head or? Yes, we can. I was wondering why it got so dark then.

Oh, one last question. One last thing, Mike. Ben needs one of Sam's candles just right here. One last thing.

Where do people go to find your new course? Do they message you on LinkedIn?

Do they email you?

Like, how do they find it?

Okay, so literally 30 minutes before this, for this call, my best friend called me. He's like, I got the website. I, and honestly, it's killing me. I don't remember the name of the website, but we're gonna have, I swear to you, we're gonna have a name of the website that you could go to it and buy. You can, you can message me on LinkedIn. I'll give it to you. I, gosh, I can't remember what it's called.

Don't worry. I'm gonna put it under the YouTube channels and the Spotify channel. So anyone listening and you want to find Mike's course, there's going to be a link under this video and you'll be able to— and I'm guessing you'll have it on your LinkedIn profile at some point as well, Mike, right? So just go to LinkedIn profile and have everything there, I'm guessing. Uh, epic, Mike.

And I just want to say this, I, uh, I, I do— I, I get people that, that reach out for coaching and, and, and want that stuff. I try to get back to as, as many people as I can and, and just be transparent with them. Like, I'm not dodging or anything like that. Like, I want to be— I want to help people generally. Like, I really do, because I do think that Um, when I, when I look at recruiting as a whole, a rising tide lifts all boats. And the better the industry becomes as a whole, the better, like, the more opportunity there is for everybody. And so I did— that's, that's one plug I want to say. And the other plug I want to say this is don't fear AI. Don't fear AI. I know people are thinking about what are we gonna do about AI? Relationships will always win over AI. They just will. The ability to build relationships is a never-ending value add. And if you can do it, you can have a long, successful career in recruiting.

So love that, Mike. Um, thank you so much, bro, for coming on again. This was just as valuable as the last one. Absolute bombshells of golden nuggets you released, and I can't wait to release this one. And I hope everyone got as much value as, uh, as me and Ben did. So thank you, mate. Always appreciate your time. Appreciate it.

No problem, guys. Love the Miller twins. Millers create builders. Hey, I love that.

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