A MASTERCLASS in Winning New Business From $2Million Biller (Asher Rudolph)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Asher Rudolph. Asher is a £2 million biller. This year alone, we're 6 months in and he's already on £1.4 million. Asher is one of the biggest billers we've had on the pod, and today's episode is going to be a masterclass in winning new business. We are going to be discussing the exact tactics and strategies that Asher uses to build his pipeline. He's going be talking us through his exact day plan and how he structures his time. And we're also going to be diving into the specific habits that Asher has cultivated on a daily basis that allows him to perform at such a high level. Guys, this episode is going to need your full attention. Don't just listen to this episode once. Go back again and again and again if you need to. Take notes, and most importantly, take action. This stuff could make you a lot more money. So as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. And let's get into it, shall we?

Asher, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited to be talking with you today.

Thank you, Ben. I appreciate it, man.

Awesome. Yeah, it's just we've never met a biller as, you know, someone who's billing as much as you. I think that in itself is a massive achievement. We won't go into that quite yet, but we'll go into the first question, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it's a mindset, strategy, or software?

This is a good one. I think honestly it's a combination. I don't think I would say software is not going to be the answer from me, unfortunately, to all of those people, all those amazing platforms and softwares out there. There are definitely some amazing tools I've utilized, but for me it's definitely been a mindset thing, like combined with quite a clear strategy. So for me, mindset over everything, right? That's everything I do in my personal life and my work life. If I say I'm going to do something, I do it. I don't procrastinate. I do it thoroughly. I do it very well. And I'm always pushing to get better and succeed. So for me, my mindset has always been it's never enough. It's never enough. I can do more. I can do more. I can be better. I can be better. So always looking to improve and always looking to be better and see what I can do that was going to help grow an account from 10 to 20, 20 to 30, and always be looking for the next thing. Without missing the small things as well. I think from a strategy perspective, mindset is the kind of foundation of that. What is my strategy going to be? Mindset is obviously not being afraid to take risks, not being afraid to get on the phone and do the basics and actually speak to people and pick up the phone and introduce yourself and put yourself in a position where maybe someone might say no, or they might make you feel bad at the time or whatever, but it's okay because the next call could be a yes. For me, the strategy has always just been, follow what I'm good at, which is I'm good at volume. I can get a lot done in a short amount of time, and I can utilize my in-depth market knowledge to essentially be more effective with my BD. But my mindset has always been, I have nothing to lose. That's my biggest thing. It's like, right, I only have everything to gain. I have nothing to lose. I make a call, it might be a crap call, that's fine. Onto the next one. I have nothing to lose. So for me, mindset has been 90%. and then strategy kind of working around that.

I love that. I have nothing to lose and willingness to take risks. I think if it's such a— it's such a good point. I think if more recruiters did nothing else other than adapt, you know, adopt that mentality, they'd probably make a lot more money, or at least, you know, do better at their jobs, which is really interesting. And correct if I'm wrong, Asha, but you've billed $4.5 million in 2 years. Yes. God, just saying that is like, what the hell?

It's like, what?

And yeah, how long did it take you to get to that level?

So I think I built my first— so I started recruitment in 2012, uh, moved out to US in 2016, and I think I built $998,000 in 2018. Um, so, so, and then my first full million was 2019. So it took me about 3 and a half, 4 years to break the million. And then from there, about 2 or 3 years to get to the $2 mil. When I broke the million, I think I did what I went from $900,000 to $1.4 million and then kind of stayed consistent around that point. And then during the pandemic, doubled down on a few things and then came in from a 2022-2023 fiscal year and then sorry, 2021-2022 and then 2022-23 to getting $2 million. And as of right now, I'm halfway through the fiscal year and I'm at 1.4 million for about 6 months in. So we're on track to keep that consistent.

That's brilliant, man.

That's amazing. I mean, sorry, go ahead, Sam.

Yeah, we have to take turns, Ben. You have to give me some. I'm joking. You said something really interesting to me, Asher, was you said you were billing 900 to 1.4 and then you said you doubled down on a few things and then your billings kind of shot up. What did you double down on that made such a leap in your billings?

So I realized that there were a lot of people in the clients I was working with that I hadn't even spoken to or reached out to. And I started asking for introductions and I got one or two and I was like, you know what, I'm going to reach out to every person in my network that I kind of currently work with and literally just ask them for introductions. And I signed 3 clients that way, I think in a week. And it was just such easy business, honestly, because there was so many— and, you know, in to backtrack a little bit, initially, obviously, starting with clients who I work with and just having me introduce them to their peers, right? So working on a different team in that company. But then I started actually speaking to people and looking at maybe someone who had left and been at a company for a year and asking about their previous company, who they recommend I work with, and using that reference to get to make a very kind of easy introduction and a warm call got me on the phone with a— got me on the phone and got me meetings extremely easily because I had name that I could kind of drop a name in, but actually there was clarity. They could see I'm connected with this person and it's all legit. So it made my outreach so much, so much better. So doubling down on essentially what I'd call easy intros, right? And having someone intro you, intro yourself, you know, they do it for you essentially, and they're doing the hard work, the legwork. A lot of time they give me an email address or a number, or sometimes they would even just in the LinkedIn message. You can, you can bring someone as a CC. And that happened a lot as well. So they were doing the intros for me. I was just kind of taking off the back of that. It's like the best lead in the world, you know, essentially. So that was something that really helped me change, man, that massively elevated it.

Wow. I love hearing the simple things in sales that make such a big difference because that is, that is quite simple, but it's quite amazing how much that improved your billings. Yeah, I'm really interested because I feel like with these simple strategies, it's also like context and framing in terms of how you approach it, because you can make that sound really shit or you can make it sound pretty good, I think.

Yeah.

Give us like a little— I'm kind of putting you on the spot here, Asha, but if you were to approach a client right now and frame it and ask for an introduction, how would you frame it? Do you mind just giving us a quick—

Yeah, sure. I'll try and figure out how I would type. But essentially, honestly, a lot of the time I'm doing it to people I have relationships anyway, right? And this is not like I wouldn't speak to a cold client who doesn't know me, I haven't done business and I haven't added value to ask me to introduce them to someone. But for me, it's more like, hey, John, you know, been amazing work with you thus far. I see you, but, you know, looking back, you've only really been here for a year. Are you still in touch with anyone at your previous company? Do you know how they're doing? I'd love to be able to replicate the success that you and I have had and help them out and help them grow with their hiring plans as well. Would you make that introduction for me? Or also say, hey, do you have any friends? We're always asking, do you have any friends that are looking for work? I like to ask, do you have any friends or colleagues or peers that are actually looking to hire that you could put me in touch with and so I can help them the same where I've helped you. So those would be my two approaches, either just getting me to ask, you know, I'd ask them for just generic peers they might know, you know, they might not work for the company, but they have a friend who's a manager as well, or a previous company where they now know who the new hiring manager is. They could put a good word for me, but just honest, you know, I'm not— no BS, no bullshit, right? I'm just, hey, this is why I'd like to work with them. You and I've had success. You trust me. You know, I'll do a good job for them. You know that you put your name in front of them. Nothing's going to come back badly because we've had a good rapport and good success thus far. And essentially they're more than happy to do it. Again, it's nothing off— it doesn't take any effort for them. It doesn't take anything away from the business I'm doing with them either, essentially. And they're helping out an old company or an old colleague, so they feel like they're doing something good as well by doing that. So again, I think simple and to the point is the most important thing. I don't send this whole massive paragraph and trying to explain why I just, like I just mentioned, to say why I think it'd be a good, a good reason, um, to the point. And then typically I've never had really any, any pushback, you know.

Love that, mate. Thank you, that was great.

And yeah, that's really— I think what we're probably not thinking about, or something that, um, is probably a big part of why you're getting it so easy, is because you did an amazing job, most likely. And so asking for anything past that point is probably really easy. Not Not that you didn't have skill in that, but you see what I mean? I think it's, which is really important to mention that you probably did an outstanding job for your clients as well, which is really important.

[Speaker] Yeah, yeah, if you do a crap job, I'm pretty certain they're not going to want to introduce you to all of their friends with their name labeled on it. Hey, work with this guy, he's crap. But no, I think that's important. And the outreach I'm talking about, it really does only work if you have good relationships, you know, with someone. And this is typically going to be a strategy for you maximizing your client potential. Versus going in at cold BD, that is a different kettle of fish. This is how can I do smart BD utilizing the relationships that I already have? I've already done the work, now let me do that, you know, let me have the work that I did work for me, you know, by utilizing my network that I spent so long building out. But I think people, a lot of the time, they neglect their network and their community, and they're not reaching out and asking for help. And I think there's power in that. And people are people, human beings. At the end of the day, people like helping people. You know, that is, that is key. A lot of people do. Like, I have it all the time. People message me, hey, I have a guy, really good friend of mine, he's looking for work. Or, hey, I actually found out this, this company can be hiring. They're having a tough time. Could you reach out? Those are inbound messages I get all the time. I'm sure other recruiters do. And there's nothing in it for these people. They're going out of their way purely to help their friend or their colleague. That's it. They just want that, you know, that camaraderie goes a long way. I think you can utilize it and capitalize on that. You know, in a good way. And I think people miss that key ingredient, that your community and your network is key to you growing anything successful.

Yeah, I'm sure over the years, um, Asha, you have had plenty of wins. I'm sure you've had plenty of failures as well. I don't think you can be that successful without going into a lot of failures. What are some of the hardest lessons that you've learned that you think maybe other, um, maybe younger— maybe not young because you're so young, but, um, fresher, fresher recruiters can learn from you?

I'd say for recruitment I'm old, but yeah, I think my biggest thing was early on, and I'm really happy it came early on because I think it really changed my trajectory. When I was about 20, I'd been doing it 2, 3 years, and a contractor reached out to me and was asking for more money, you know, because some changes and whatnot. And I could have done it, and I acted on advice not to do it, right? Not to give the increase because our margin was nice and we don't want to affect our margins. Anyway, found out, you know, the candidate went and found out what we were making and left the project and caused a huge rift with that client. And it was a bad situation. And I'd wanted to give, you know, the increase. It wasn't that big for us. It made, I think, more of a difference to him than to me. And I think from that minute on, I decided, right, I'm never doing that again because that candidate's never going to work with me. And I've ruined so many different relationships here based on 'What, an extra £5 or whatever it was?' And for the sake of that £5, I've now potentially lost thousands. So I was like, 'Right, I'm putting the relationship first.' So if someone comes to me and they need that $5 and I can afford to do it, I tell every contractor recruiter, 'Do it. Do that £5 or that $5. That $5 is going to come back to you as $20, $25, $30 because that person is going to appreciate it so much what you've done for them.' And, you know, so if your margin is thin, I'm only saying this if you can afford to do that, right? Sometimes we ask, you know, we are thin and I'm very open with my candidates. Sometimes they'll ask, they'll say, listen, this is what I'm making, so you know, they're like, okay, fair enough. You know, so I'm very open and honest. I have nothing to hide. I think if you feel like you have something to hide, then you're doing it wrong. Your contractors should have absolute faith in you and absolute trust. That's my biggest thing. I see so many contract recruiters that are just looking for that quick penny, that quick deal, and that quick margin, and they're not looking at the bigger picture of what this candidate is going to mean to you. And how important that relationship and you and that reputation you have with that candidate and that client, because they might know 5 people and those 5 people know 10 and it becomes a spider web and it will all come back to you. What goes around comes around and that's the good and the bad. So for me, the biggest thing I say to everyone is focus on reputation, focus on your relationship specifically with both candidate and client equally. And also understand that we can all make money, right? The candidate should be making the money he wants to make. If you've made him go down $20 an hour below what he needs or she needs so you can get a fatter margin, that's wrong and that's not gonna work long term. So think about the long term over everything and make decisions that are gonna affect everyone in a good way, not just your pocket. That's my biggest thing I think I see with content recruiters make, just the mistake they make all the time.

Love that. I always love hearing about people that make a lot of money but are doing it with good intentions and looking after people. Like, I think everyone loves that, but I just love that you, you said that, um, Ashwin. That's like a key driving ethos of what you do and how you work.

Um, yeah, yeah. I think, I, I think that there's this notion— I've said to people when I interview them as well— there's this notion to be successful you have to be a shark, right? You have to be you have to smell that blood in the water. And that is 1970s, 1980s mentality, in my opinion, right? We can all make money now. There's enough to go around. You can be successful, make all the money you need while also making the candidate all the money they need to be happy in their life and what's going on with them while also being fair to the client, right? That's the biggest thing for me is remember, 3 parties involved: candidate, us, and the client. All 3 can make money. All 3 can be happy. If one of them's not happy, not going to work, right? It has to be an equal, an equal share of happiness and, um, and, and essentially spread financially.

So yeah, definitely, mate. I just want to jump back to that period where you were billing $900 and then you made that leap when you doubled down on a few things. I just, I'm fascinated in the jumps that people can make in their career and what what the catalysts are for that. And you jumped quite a big, big amount. You said one of the key things was the introductions. Was there anything else during that period that you think you did, Asher, that maybe made a 20% difference, 30% difference? Or was that the main— was that the biggest thing that allowed you to— and that's okay if that is.

No, no, it's anything else. Yes. No, good question. I think that was one— that was a key thing for me.

Yeah.

Um, I think I also doubled down on basics, right? I started getting— I was, I was realizing I wasn't probably getting enough leads and references, was I was doing probably too much cold business development versus warm business development. So, that was a big thing for me as well is wanting to go after clients that I knew were hiring in my space rather than just throwing the dart at the board. I've been pretty good at that through my career, going after people I know are in my space and selling them a solution that they're going to be interested in. But, I was also probably doing a little bit too much cold business because I was still building. I'd only been out in the U.S. 2.5, 3 years, so I was still kind of going after as much as I could. And I think I doubled down on what I was good at before I moved to America, which was being meticulous with who I'm going after, why I'm going after these clients, and having product first. That was a big thing for me as well. I was doing proactive recruitment, not reactive. So I'm going to a client with a candidate I'm already working with or with a bench of contractors I already have, rather than selling in this imaginary candidate and then trying to find them. And that— and I was setting up interviews on the first call. Because I had real tangible product. So that was a big thing for me as well.

Interesting, that's really fascinating.

I know— thank you. I know from the last call, um, you put a huge emphasis on building strong relationships with candidates, and I think a lot of, um, recruiters are almost obsessed with the opposite, but you, you made it clear that candidates are really where you should be focusing on. Can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, um, it's crazy to me how much people put this, this pedestal, right, of client versus candidate. I don't understand that. It's equal. There is not one without the other. Uh, if you think of any salesman, the only thing that makes a good successful salesman is a good product, right? And now, as recruiters, our product has to be perfect, and our product is people and skills. So if my people and skills are not probably the strongest point of my job, How can I be successful in selling? So for me, for me, I would spend more time speaking to candidates, getting to know them, understanding them, and making sure I put them in the right places. Because I need— I don't want to do a one, one placement and then move on to the next. My whole thing is about growing an account, growing into multiple placements, especially as a contract recruiter. And the only way I can do that is with a good product, because that one That first placement is going to be the tell of what happens next in this business relationship. If I put a candidate, I see all the time people are like, oh, 50/50 on this candidate, but I'll just throw 'em in there and see how it goes. Absolutely not. If especially it's my first time working with a client, I am gonna put someone in that I'm 100% sure of. And by investing more time in the candidate, I become more sure of them, right? Or less sure, but more sure either way I'm gonna put them forward. I learn more about the skills, I take the time to learn more about their expertise, more about the market. And by doing so, I am then more valuable to my client anyway. So the business development side becomes easy because I'm so confident in my product and I know my products inside and out. When I'm on the phone with them, they ask me a question, I don't have to, oh, let me go and ask the candidate, oh, let me go and ask the candidate. No, I've got it all here, ready to go. What do you need? I've got it, it's good. When I'm selling the product, I've got everything. So that's the number one thing for me is the investment of time. The candidates are, in my opinion, and some of my friends who, you know, turned friends who were candidates, We talk all the time. They'll give me updates on where the market is, what the trends are, what the best technology is. All of that information I'd have to spend hours and hours probably reading on the internet or books or certifications. They give it to me in 5, 10 minutes, and then I speak to a client and now I sound credible. And sometimes they ask me, are you a network engineer? Or I'm like, no, no, trust me, you don't want me on a keyboard, but I understand it, right? So the candidates for me have given me everything. So I want to give everything back to them because they give me everything. I am nothing without my product. And I think people forget that sometimes. So I always say to my team, we are a product-first team, right? So for me, candidates, consultants, engineers, whatever we want to call them, they are the heart of what I do. Without a good foundation, I am nothing, right? A service— you can go and have an amazing cold sales call, best call of your life, and then your candidate's crap. What happens? It's gone. It doesn't matter. For me, the product is key. And then The candidates I work with, you know, especially if you're dealing in my market, there's a lot of senior candidates I work with. I have multiple candidates that are now clients, right? Because of my relationship with them, because of how I treated them as candidates. And they, you know, they were senior in their— where they were in their positions at that time. And now they're a hiring manager, they're a director. And who are they going to come to? They're going to come to the person that treated them well. So this pedestal thing And people always do it client here, candidates here. In my opinion, it should always be here all the time, you know, even maybe even potentially here because the candidate is everything, you know, it's at the heart of what we do. Obviously, we need clients to buy, right? We need the money coming in, but the product should be the heart of everyone, everyone's teams, everyone's thoughts. It has to be, you know, the focus, in my opinion.

Yeah, I absolutely love that. And The higher the biller we speak to, this is a similar thing that we keep on hearing, me and Ben, and it's so fascinating. Focus on speaking to candidates, focus on listening to your candidates, focus on good product, and everything else kind of falls into place. I know there's more to it, but it's interesting how you say something similar as well, um, Asha. Um, I would love— I'm just fascinated in day plans, especially someone working at your level. Um, Asha, can you give us like a rundown of what your day consists of, your typical day, starting from like when you wake up to when you, when you clock off? Would you mind, mind doing that?

Yeah, I think I'll probably give you one when I was building first, because I think that probably is going to be more relevant, because right now my, my job is different, of account management and, you know, team management and stuff. So when I was building, um, and I still do this, right, but it's probably a little bit different, but when I was building, it was the same thing every day. So I had searches that was saved on Dice or Monster or whatever it was, and LinkedIn. And my day consisted, the first thing I do is call candidates every day, the first thing. I'd get in at 7:00 AM, maybe make my lists or whatever I was doing, answering emails, and from 7:30, 8:00 AM latest, I'm calling candidates. And I'm calling the candidates that have just uploaded their resume within 24 hours. I'm calling candidates that have just switched their, you know, their thing on LinkedIn that says open to work. Anyone that's updated their information, You know, they might not even say open to work, they might put a new certification on there. So I set up, I mean, I've had maybe 100 different strings, to be honest with you, of different types of candidates that would give me a list of maybe 15, 20 new candidates a day. Not all of them were strong, not all of them were relevant, but I got at least 2 or 3 solid gems in there pretty much on a daily basis. Go and speak to the candidate. I'm the first they're going to be speaking to. They've just come to market. They're not working with anyone yet. They're not interviewing anyone yet. Great. This is a hot commodity for me. Because if I get them something, I'm not competing with other offers, right? So, and then I'm also finding out, all right, they're going to be, you know, the company they're leaving potentially, right? Could be an opening there. I'm finding out the tech stack. I'm finding out why they're looking to leave. A lot— I'm getting good market information on, on what's going on. And that's how I started my day. Well, you can't start your day badly when you speak to 10, 15 people and continually— and the majority of them are answering because they're looking for work or they're open to something, right? So they're more communicative on the phone versus calling a list of 100 clients that no one answers. So for me, from a mindset, going back to the mindset side of things, that got me raring, that got me going because I've just had my first thing in the day, I've had these awesome calls. I feel great, I feel good. I've got a skip in my step. I've got some 2 or 3 solid new candidates, some fresh blood I can set in. I'm equipped with some new information. I've got some new client names I can go to. Right, let's go to market with these people. And then I would have a list of clients that either I've been chasing leads, you know, maybe references, just clients I know in my market, probably clients I've spoken to from, from these candidates. And I've got direction with my BD. I know where I'm going. The candidates are— have shaped my day. They have been the, the crux of everything. And the conversations with the candidates have given me the information of, right, where is my day going? And then I've got my client sprint, and it typically— that all comes from the information I get from my candidates. And then rinse and repeat in the afternoon. But everyone's like, oh, I'm gonna do a client sprint then candidates. Okay, what's a client sprint? Where are you getting these clients from? What information? Where are the leads? Where are the references? Where are, you know, where's the data? Where's the information? Where are you going? It's just cold. It's just so many people get a list and just call with no direction. So for me, the candidates were my anchor, my compass, right? All right, this is where we're going today. You know, I've just got 5 leads in the medical sector. I've got a really strong network engineer with a ton of healthcare experience. I'm gonna sell him in there. Gonna be an easy win. I'm gonna get a couple interviews, we're gonna go rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. And that was it. That was my strategy and my day plan pretty much every day for the first couple of years at Oscar. Obviously you start growing accounts, right? You're getting more jobs in, the day is going to consist of, you know, finding more people and doing more active recruiting. But still, whenever, you know, things dry up, whatever, that's my go-to strategy every single time. And it's honestly worked for me for the last 12 years.

Absolutely love that.

I've never heard a recruiter phrase it like that, which is like candidates are the anchor.

Yeah.

And you follow the pathways, which I think is— it's so simple but it's such a brilliant way to phrase it. I think it's— yeah, brilliant, mate. Thank you for sharing.

Um, can I ask, so you, you have these, uh, you have, say, 3 great candidates that are— that give you the direction in terms of where you're going with um, you know, I guess it's speccing in. Am I right in saying that would be the trigger to the client? Can you, can you tell us a little bit about, okay, what's that next step? You've got a, you've got 3 great candidates. How do you actually get a conversation started with the client? You know, is it just emailing? Is it cold call? And how do you do that, if you want me asking?

You know, sure, of course. So I think obviously identify the client first, right, of who you're calling and why. So if I have a candidate with a specific skill set, could be industry related, I'll try and, you know, put together a search for companies that hire in that specific space. And mine is always the same, always call first. I think people try and hide behind email too much. I never email first, I call. And sometimes I'll call and if, as they're answering, I'll email while they're on the phone. I've just sent you a resume, let's have a minute to discuss. I call, email, text if I, you know, I think text is something I'll do if it's more urgent, if it's a lead or if it's something I know, right, they're hiring right now, I'm more urgent. I would do LinkedIn, message, call. I'm sure all the clients out there, you know, probably love all that, all the outreach, but it's true. You have to kind of hit all of your different bases. And then essentially I follow up, right? So I always leave a voicemail in the morning. I'll call again in the afternoon. I'll do— I'll follow up on the email probably the next day. I try not to email more than once in a day. I think that can be a little bit overwhelming. I think a call— I think a call is, in my opinion, once you get them on the phone, you know, obviously it's more personal, but there's something about emailing someone, you know, 2 or 3 times in a day unless you are actually, you know, hunting an invoice or something, then obviously you need to do that. But so that's essentially kind of what I would do is, again, basics. I don't think there's anything crazy here, but people are spending time. They write this crazy long email and they go on LinkedIn, they look at the company and what is the company, what were they doing? They spent 25 minutes looking at this and then they call and the person doesn't answer. And then, you know, that happens every time. So it's being right, I've got this company, I'm just going to, I've got the person to call, I'm going to call them. I've got a great candidate, it's going to be really easy sell. Worst thing is he says, no, I'm not hiring, or she says, no, I'm not hiring right now. Okay, no worries. When can we, when can we catch up? What I'll do anyway is because these skills are so hard to find, I'll send it to you so you've got it in your inbox, keep it in your back pocket. When you do look to hire, you know, the kind of caliber of person I can, I can, I can deliver to you. So give me a call. And I like to add context, right? So when I'm selling my great services, but now look at this resume, and I'll send them an absolute diamond of a resume, right? If they're a network manager, this resume is gonna have everything you want on it, every certification, all the bells and whistles to make it look attractive where they would be hopefully, you know what, I'm not hiring, but I'll speak to them because we are gonna be hiring next month, so why not get ahead of the curve? Or actually this candidate looks great, but we also like this, and they've just given me this bit of information that I didn't have before. And now next time I call them, I can do a spec send with that resume, without those skills that they'd mentioned they like, and go from there. So for me, I think everyone's like expecting you'd make the cold call and then you're going to get a sale right away. The likelihood of that happening is very minute in my opinion. But that follow-up call, that third call, that fourth call, that's when the business starts. And for me, Yeah. For me, I'm going on that, I'm building that pipeline. You know, the references and leads and stuff, that'll be your quick wins, what I call them. You know, your quick, yeah, we're hiring, cool, send a resume. But for me, the ones where I'm building, all of my biggest clients now have come from 2, 3, 4, maybe 3, 4, 5 calls, right? And building that relationship and then finally working with them. And then not just doing one role, working 10, working 15, right? And doing these massive mammoth ones. Anyone I've called someone up, we've done a quick placement, for some reason, the relationship haven't lasted as long. But the ones where I've— it's been a slower burn, those ones I've worked with for years and years.

Interesting. And that's, that's fascinating. And those 3—

so you got—

you said 3, 4, 5 calls for the best clients. Do you just keep going back with the— I'm, I'm guessing there's some, some nuance in this, but is it just going back with the same candidate in a slightly different spin, or you going back with value in some of the calls? Like How, what's the context of some of those calls, if you don't mind me asking, Asher?

Honestly, no, typically don't want to do the same exact person, especially if it's been a month or 5 or 6 weeks out. Why is that candidate still available? You know, if they're so good, if they're such a hot commodity, why are you still sending them to me? Plus I want to show them I'm not a one-trick pony. So what I'll typically do is send someone very similar but different, maybe have more certifications in one area or more skills in another, more cloud, more automation, and highlight what the changes were. To show that I'm not just sending someone random. But my biggest point of— because the first call typically is always going to be a bit awkward, right, for everyone. We don't know each other. I'm just a voice on the phone to him or her. You know, she's a voice on the phone, you know, to me. It's a cold call. They haven't got time, blah, blah, blah. I'm just trying to get a little bit of information out of them as I can. Are they, you know, find out first if they're hiring, great. If not, Can I find out a bit more about their tech stack? When they hire, just some basic information that's going to help me in the next call. The next call is the pivotal one. That's when we start building that relationship. That's when I'm starting asking about, okay, are you married? Do you have a wife, husband, children? What do you do on the weekend? Sports? And we spend 10 minutes talking about nothing about work, just each other, talking about, you know, and then I find that common ground and I'm like, oh nice, you like football? I love football. Oh, you have your auntie's from England. Also, have you been there? Whatever it is, we find that crux. And then at the end, it's, oh, by the way, how's it going? And there's just no guard up. There's no restrictive kind of answering or being elusive. It's all just super loose, super chill. Like we've just been in a bar chatting and then I've asked a question and he or she's given those answers. So that second call is most pivotal. And then making sure you write those key little bits of information. Oh, has 3 kids, 2 boys and a girl. One had a birthday coming up in 2 weeks. Next time we call, hey, how was his birthday? How was the party? You know, and then it's just that, it's just that building that rapport while also at the end of the call, always getting in that last look. Okay, oh, did you, I sent you someone else. What did you think? Yeah, it looks great. You know, we're 2 or 3 weeks out. The budget's a bit delayed, but you know, this is exactly what we're looking for. Cool, I know exactly what I want now. Third call, hopefully we're closing the deal, right? At that point we've got a live job or again, we're just solidifying the relationship. You know, sometimes it might be, hey, call me next week. You know, we are nearly there. Then it's about MSA, terms, that kind of side, and so on. You know, I think, I think it's important for everyone to know out there when you're starting that for a business transaction to happen after the first call is amazing, but it's unlikely, right? I think, I think 3 calls is going to be— 3 conversations is probably good. 2 is, I think, still very good. 3 or 4 is going to be your medium of like having reported, signing terms, and doing actual business with each other, right? Not just a one-off deal. And what you'll see is on that third or fourth call, you don't even need to make that fifth one because they're now coming to you. They're emailing you, hey Asha, finally got the job, here it is, let me know who you've got. Hey Asha, here's the JD, let me know your thoughts. Hey Asha, how much is this gonna cost me? And then that's that inbound business that every recruiter dreams of. You wake up in the morning, you got 4 sexy jobs in your inbox, like yes. You know what I mean? That's what we want. So that's my, my go-to, obviously. So I go into every call with the aim to build a relationship and to build rapport and to get information. If I can get a job there and then, fantastic, that's a plus. But I'm going into every call to get information because if I get information, it's a win. If you're just going in for a job, you don't get the job, it's not a win and your mindset's all messed up. So it comes back to the mindset thing. So for me, right, what's my wins? My wins are things I can control. I can control on getting some information on the call. I can't control if they're hiring. So control what you can control. And that's, I think, where my calls are quite effective. And then following up and write all those little notes down you think might not be important. Oh, I'm going skiing next week, my first time. I'm a bit scared. How was your skiing? Wasn't so bad, was it? Oh yeah, great. 2 minutes of just random chit-chat and then boom, you're off. So anything you think might not, might be insignificant, write it down. You never know because it could be a massive conversation starter and they might not remember you the next call, But you asked about skiing, so like, oh, we must have spoken, so guard's instantly down. So those are my kind of things that I follow.

That was a masterclass, Asher.

That was literally a masterclass. I love that, mate. Um, obviously you have spent years perfecting your BD process. Um, Asher, is there anything that you— and you might have already explained it to us— but was there anything that kind of was doing okay and then you tweaked something and then you remember seeing like a big uptake in conversations or response rates or warmness towards you in terms of clients reacting? Does anything like that come to mind, or have you already mentioned it?

Yeah, I think so. A lot of what I've mentioned, I think a big thing I find effective is LinkedIn and connections as well. And just looking to— and honestly, that helped me a lot get more warm conversations, um, is connecting with people and being active on LinkedIn. Again, it's super basic, but I'd reach out to him and say, hey, I'd love to connect, I'm in the networking space. 'Always looking to connect with like-minded people, and hopefully there's an opportunity to work with each other in the future. But for now, just be good to connect.' And my success rate on that was, I think I sent out 25 of those as a test. I think 22 accepted. So it was like, yeah, which was crazy. And then I don't like, 'Hey, thanks so much.' I'm like, I just go, 'Hey, thanks so much for connecting. I look forward to keeping in touch,' and then set maybe a calendar or something for 3, 4 weeks down the line. So that was something that they helped me as well. And just again, I mentioned some of it, of course, but utilizing that network and growing and looking at warm approaches and don't be salesy, salesy, salesy right away. I do different approaches, right? Sometimes if I'm selling in a candidate, I will sell in the candidate directly. Hey, I'm working with someone, you know, I think they'd be great on your team. When can we chat about those details? You know, what does that look like for them to be able to come onto your team? What's the interview process? So I still do all of that, by the way. I'm talking specifically, like you mentioned, to, you know, to build new things and create new things, the warmer approaches is definitely that connecting, you know, first connections and do it with second connections. You know, don't be, don't be messaging loads of third connections, go to your second connections and use that network because you might, they know people, they'll see you know them and they're going to be more open to connect with you. And then when they connect with you, that third connection becomes a second, you know, so then you're growing your network all the time. And that, that I've been doing that last 5, 6 years. I probably neglected that for a little bit, to be honest with you. And that helped me massively. And just doing a BD call, hey, it's Asher Rudolph, we're connected on LinkedIn. You know, we've never spoken on the phone. That would be my, hey Asher Rudolph, I'm at Oscar Technology. You know, whatever my intro is, you and I were actually connected on LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago. Oh yeah, yeah, cool. Cool, cool. You know, the cold call is now semi-cold or even lukewarm, who knows? But he now knows of me, knows we're connected, even if he doesn't remember me, there's something there, you know, to build on. So I think what's really important is just always, always try and find some common ground. No matter how cold the BD is, try and find a way to make it warm. And honestly, simple things like connection on LinkedIn is a massive one, I think, that people kind of forget. And if you're connecting, don't be overly salesy right away. Just be a peer, you know, be someone that you want to add to the network for now, and then let it naturally kind of, you know, evolve into a relationship.

Love that, mate. Again, a little golden nugget there that people should be using. Me and Ben have tested methods like that, and they've worked brilliantly. So I think that's a really great piece of advice. Um, I'll let you ask a question. I've been asking quite a few.

No, that's all right. Um, we said we may or may not touch upon this, uh, Asha, but I feel like if you wouldn't mind, it'll be great. I think there's a lot of recruiters that want to penetrate larger accounts, and I know you've got a bit of a system or a, um, you know, you've got a bit of a, a, you've got a solid process around that. If you were to give someone some advice, they've seen a company they really want to work with, but it feels out of their reach, what words of wisdom would you give them to penetrate that account, do you think?

Yeah, I think there are some companies that genuinely might be too big or too difficult to work with, right, because of red tape and company politics and whatever. But also, there are companies that you would imagine are too big or out of reach, that definitely aren't. My biggest thing is just give it a go. Just try. Because honestly, and go high up. Go high up in these companies. Everyone is so scared for some reason to call a VP or a director or, you know, a CTO or something at a large company because like, oh, they're going to have no interest in me. You'd be very surprised. And they actually appreciate and respect, as long as it's an intelligent reach out with good context, right? That's a big thing as well. Reach out. You're going to be confident in your ability to sell if you're confident in your product and you have good information. You're not just calling some VP at Bank of America, "Oh, please work with me." It's like, "Hey, I have this person who literally has 20 years of banking experience and has this system that I know probably about 25 people in the country have. I'd love to discuss with you how we could be a partner." either right now or in the future, and just pick your brain a little bit on how things are looking at Bank of America and go from there. Those people are so receptive. I think that's the thing is people are expecting them to be just, hey, fuck off or whatever, because look at me, but they're not. They're human beings at the end of the day. Yes, they might be busy, but if you're bringing something of value to them, they're going to listen. They're going to listen. If I'm shopping for a Mercedes and someone calls me with a Peugeot, not going to be interested. But if they listen to what I want and come to me knowing I've been looking for Mercedes and come to me with a Mercedes, there's only 4 left in the whole country, I'm probably going to take the call. So, I think the same mindset. Doesn't matter if it's a 10-person company or 100,000-people company, the approach doesn't change. And that's my biggest thing to people is don't worry about the size, focus on what you can control, the product that you have and the information that you have, and going in there with real context. And and real value from the get-go. Don't just hop on a call and have no idea where you're going. Make sure you've got a direction and a reason as to why you're calling because you've got to think, right, they're going to ask, why should I work with you? And you can't answer, you're not going to have a good call. So make sure you know going in why they should work with you and having that product behind you will give you that confidence to deliver that really well. And that's honestly my biggest thing. I don't think there's anything, there's a crazy secret. I just think people aren't— one, they're not putting themselves out there enough and taking that risk for any— I don't know why, you know, scared of failure. That's going to be an issue. You've got to get over that yourself somehow. You know, whoever you are, you have to go over that fear of failure because that's what's holding you back. And just making sure you're being meticulous in your processes and you'll get into those big accounts if you keep doing that and chipping away. You know, if you call one big account a week and nothing's working, probably not. You know, at the beginning I'm calling many, right? This is also a volume game at the same time. The quality has to be there and the volume has to be there. You can't call 5 clients and expect to get one. You probably have to call over the course of, you know, 100, 150, you know, at some point. And then 5, 10 of those, you start building rapport and maybe 1 or 2 become your clients. But you only need 1, 2, maybe 3 of these big accounts to change your life. You know, that's it.

So yeah, I love that, mate. Can we go a bit more into volume? Because I think This is again a common theme that comes up, and I think it's a bit of a myth— not a myth, but I think people feel like they can just do a couple calls a day and then have, you know, oh, why isn't it working? When actually people billing even at your level have to continue doing volume and, and use a lot of volume to get there. Um, we have an idea of what you were doing in the morning. I think it was around 15-20 candidate calls.

What other call—

how many more calls were you doing after that? Um, actually, just so we can get an understanding of the volume you were putting in on a daily basis.

Sure. Honestly, I don't know. It's hard to give you an exact number, but I was probably making, you know, when I'm building from scratch, you know, and it is depending on someone answers right at the end of the call. You have those days where no one answers. I made maybe 90, you know, calls, 100 calls. I think if we're going to put a mean or an average in there, at least 50 or 60 companies. And then that means what? That means 50 or 60 emails, right? And then you get emails back and then you have a conversation. And then, you know, every candidate I call, I email, I text, I put a LinkedIn request. Every client I call, I email. My email outgoings at one point was probably 300, 400 a day, you know, of output. And then, but then that's also built in with replies as well, not just cold emails, right? So people coming back, hey, what's the rate? So all these conversations. But if you look at my, my numbers, my KPIs, however you wanna call it, they were always way up there and have been even to this day. You know, volume is important, you know, and again, targeted volume, right? You know, volume with purpose, but volume. You know, you could have the most amazing candidate and you spec it to 20 people and nothing, right? But you also at the same time don't want to, send it to 1,000 people and just hit and hope. There is a good balance here, but you have to understand that it is a numbers game, you know? And recruitment is one of these games where one day you call 5 clients, every single client answers, and 2 of them are fantastic calls. The next day you call 60 and not one person answers. That's okay. Those 60, one of them will answer at some point, right? So you keep going. But I think people nowadays are— honestly, their output is shocking. And they're like, oh, it's not working. What have I done? It's like, well, you haven't said enough. How many have you sent? You said 5. I spoke to 6 people today. Like, well, obviously not. Like, I don't— you know, something you think would be obvious is not. And that's, I think, maybe some of the training or, you know, people are just seeing— and now we live in a world where people get Insta-famous and, you know, Facebook famous and they make a video and make millions and everyone wants this instant success. And they don't know that all of those people, how much time and effort they put behind it and how much graft there was. But you've got to graft, you've got to pull your sleeves up and put the work in. No matter what you're doing, it's the same thing everywhere, right? Same with the gym. You go to gym twice, you're not going to see any results. Do you know what I mean? Like, imagine getting put on like, oh, I've got a six-pack, I've done at least 100 sit-ups, what's going on? Like, no, you gotta do it, you gotta do it, you gotta do 100 every day for 6 months to even see 2. But especially now I'm 30, I've got to see a two-pack, I've got to do at least 200. You know what I mean? So I think that's, that's honestly the That's the real, you know, the real of it always is that people aren't doing enough. They're not doing enough outreach. You know? And if you think you've done enough, do more. That's my biggest thing. Do more. Do 10 more. Do 20 more. Whatever it is. Because nothing bad is going to come from reaching out to too many people essentially. Again, targeted in my space. I'm not emailing 1,000 If I emailed 1,000 people, I could say at least they'd all be network managers and they'd probably be in my space. But I wouldn't email 1,000 people. But I know people that would email 1,000 people and maybe 10% of them are actually relevant. The others are just in IT or something. I would only, I think the most I've ever emailed at one time was maybe 150. And that was off of a list that I made over time. And it was a very specific niche list. And the responses I got were very good because it was all relevant. To them. Most of it was, hey, we're not hiring right now, you know, which is fine. But none of it was like, this is not interesting to me, take me, remove me from your list. I didn't get any of those at all. You know what I mean? Because my volume is there, but my quality is there as well. So my biggest thing to people is pick up the phone, don't be scared. And volume, when you're starting out, you need to be— look at the person to your left, look at the person to your right, right? And look at both of them there. I really do the opposite, by the way. But, and look and see what they're doing and think, I need to do more. They're on the phone, I should be on the phone. You know, they're emailing, I should be emailing. And just look at them and make sure you're the busiest person. That's what you need to strive to. And that's what I was when I first started. I was, I'm going to be the busiest person in here. And don't stay late just to stay late. If you're going to stay late, get stuff done. You don't have to stay late to 7, 8, 9 PM. If you are doing that, it's probably because you're not getting enough done in your day. But if you are wanting to do that, make sure you're getting value from it. Don't just stay late for the sake of it as well. That's, that's going to burn you out very quickly. That's a big thing we try and tell people not to do, you know, all the time.

So love that, mate.

I feel—

sorry, Ben, we're gonna say something.

And that's all right, we can, um— I was gonna say, is there anyone in your, uh, company billing close to you, or you just way above everyone at the moment, uh, Asha?

Um, the last couple of years I've been, I've been quite a little bit higher. But we did have one year, um, I think the first year I did 2, we had 4 other people do over a million as well. Um, and that was really, that was really cool. Uh, I have, I have definitely, through my career, I've definitely closed. I said the last couple of years it's been, it's been a decent gap, but that obviously comes from experience as well. We had some big bidders that went into management roles. Um, so obviously that, that did kind of, you know, edge that gap a little bit. Um, but yeah, there's a decent gap as of now, but also I think the person, people below me have got 4 or 5 years experience. I've got 12, so You'd expect that gap to kind of be shown in that a little bit, but we have some really strong consistent billers as well.

Yeah, that's awesome. This is a bit of a technical question, a bit of an offshoot, but considering cold calling— it's all not warm calling— and the phone is so important, what software do you use to get numbers? Is there one software that you found that is like an absolute brilliant—

ZoomInfo and Source Whale, probably the two biggest ones.

Cool.

Um, and then honestly, LinkedIn connections, they've all got their information there, you know, cell phone, email, it's all there. Um, do you know what I mean? So I, I think that there's a lot of good tools now. And, and honestly, ask people, like when you're getting references, uh, people just give names, give me, give me that mobile, give me that email address, you know. I need to take that reference to make sure you are who you say you are. So people will be like, oh, they only gave me a name, I'll go and try and find the number. No, just ask them. They've got it in their phone. Just, you know, just have them. So people are a big resource for me as well. You know, it's just like they've got it there. You haven't always got to go and find out on yourself. Obviously if you're doing cold B2B, yes. But if you're doing leads or references or anything, or any type of introduction, ask the person for email and number. They'll have both and they'll give you both. Don't be afraid to ask. That's a big thing, you know, I think I tell my team all the time. Why don't you ask? Call them again. Ask for them, you know, have them share the contact with you. They'll do it. If you don't ask, they're not going to do it. So love that.

Um, we're coming to the end of the pod. You've given us a masterclass in BD, uh, actually, honestly, some amazing information. Um, I want to go back to mindset because I feel like a recruiter could listen to all of this, be like, oh my God, this is absolute gold, but unless they have the right mindset, it's absolutely useful— useless, um, sorry. Um, and so I want to delve deeper into And how do you— my brain's saying, how do you develop a good mindset? It's typically due to your habits. That's what I found, like my habits create my mindset. It usually doesn't just come from— well, my mindset hasn't been, you know, it didn't start off good, had to be— so what are some particularly strong habits that you have implemented in your life that you have found make a difference to your work, your discipline, and your billings?

Yeah, so I'm very active. I think that helps me massively, right? I wake up at 5 AM, 5:30. I do jiu-jitsu 3, 4 times a week. I train in the gym. Um, yeah, like, I— for me, the, the mind has to be nourished by the body. That's the biggest thing for me. And I actually get angry and like I'm borderline low. Um, you know, I've definitely suffered with depression issues and stuff in the past, and it was when I was my least active. So for me, being in tune with my body, you know, it has been the biggest thing for me because I I'm coming in refreshed, I'm ready to go. As well as putting yourself in uncomfortable situations has been a big thing for me. So obviously, jiu-jitsu is one, right? You have a 300-pound man on your face and you have to get up, which is pretty good for helping with anxiety and other stuff like that. But overcoming adversity, doing cold showers, doing cold water plunges, things like that. It doesn't have to be that, right? Anything you as a person deem to be difficult, and setting goals on those, on actioning those, right? Whether it is having a cold shower or just getting up at 5 AM, 6 AM, you know, uh, reading a book, whatever it is. I think it's really important to set goals that specifically are going to push you, um, because for me, when I was getting up— and the, the water here is too, too warm now— but I was getting up 5 AM, jumping out of bed and getting in the freezing cold swimming pool, um, and I got out and the the euphoric shock I had was incredible. It was like I had like 9 cups of coffee and it just set me up because the biggest thing for me wasn't the physical feeling. It was I still— the first time I did, I stared at the pool for like 5 minutes. I did not want to get in. I was knackered. The pool was freezing. It was like 38 degrees, you know, which is freezing. And I'd just woken up. I was like, I don't want to do this. And I did it and I felt amazing. And it was that push which really helped me kind of set up my day. And I was just smiling the whole day just from that. So if you can do anything that's going to push your mind a little bit, I think that would help. But I think as well, not everyone's active, not everyone's sporty, not everyone wants to do these extreme things. I get that. But you can make anything a mental challenge. I would make a list of what are the things I really don't like doing or don't want to do and force yourself to do them. And again, these are things that are going to bring benefit, not things that are going to hurt or damage you. But whether it's things like, I want to make my bed every day, something like that. And I think for me, my wife will tell you as well, I'm really strict. Everyone would say I'm really strict with my schedule and my routine. My routine has been the anchor again of my success because I meal prep, I go on walks after lunch, I get outside every single day. I'm always getting oxygen, I'm always getting sunlight. I've done the same thing pretty much for 12 years. I would eat and then go for a walk. I would eat and go for a walk at lunchtime. I'd get out of the office. Someone invites me out on a Tuesday night, I panic. I'm like, no, no, I can't. I can't. It's Tuesday. I've got my dinner routine. I like to read, go to bed, whatever it is. So I very rarely stray from my routine. And I think having a really strict routine, holding yourself accountable, and having certain principles that you hold yourself to, in your life will trickle through to your work. And it comes through the same thing with, I can get so much done in a, in a morning, maybe, maybe what someone else would get in a day, because I'm strict, because I have good routine, and I have really good processes in place. And that all comes from my personal life and what I do there. Um, so I'm a big believer is, is anyone can do it, right? Anyone can, can do this. Anyone can do anything they, they want. And again, I'm not David Goggins and one of these people, right, which are these, these amazing sports people and kind of mind coaches. But I can, I can attest to the fact that being successful in recruitment, for me, a huge attribute has been my personal life and how I treat my body and my mind. And it comes, it comes in into my job massively, helps me deal with hard situations, um, it helps me deal with stress, it helps me see things, you know, more rationally. There's a lot that it does. So I think if you're struggling with mindset, I would highly recommend getting in tune with your body. That's massive. Um, and making sure— if you're in recruitment, get outside every day. I see people in the office all day, they get on the laptop and they go on their phone, and then they go back on the laptop, and they're just— you're going to burn yourself out, you know. You need to get outside, you need to go and have fresh air. And when you're walking around, don't be flicking, you know, just, just walk. Have— give yourself 15-20 minutes break, refresh your mind, come back, and let's smash it. Have an espresso if you need to, but come back and let's smash it. That's honestly, that's what I do every day and have done pretty much my entire career, and it's been working for me in my professional and my personal life.

So love that, mate. I absolutely love you even more, Asha, because you do jiu-jitsu and I'm a massive jiu-jitsu fan.

So, oh nice, do you train as well?

I do, yeah. I train, I'm training about 2-3 times a week at the moment, and I'm a massive gym goer as well, so I kind of sit between them. How long have you been doing jiu-jitsu for?

Um, about 9 years.

Oh wow, 9 years.

Cool.

So you're a veteran in the, uh—

I am, yes. I got my black belt in December, actually.

Oh, congrats, mate.

Wow, that's epic.

I got my purple one this year as well, funnily enough.

So nice.

I've got a couple years to go for—

for—

I say a couple, at least 5, 6 until I get my black. But that's awesome, man. But you've gone up like 10 steps in my, uh, in my books because you are a black belt.

I'll take that, I'll take that, I'll take that. And you know what, I actually did a post on LinkedIn about when I got my black belt, and actually some of the things things that I have used to implement the stuff in jiu-jitsu into my personal life, into my professional life. And I got comments from all over. I got— we got VPs of technology, I got engineers, I got data scientists, I got non-technical folk all commenting that had been training or had got into it or something, or had started running or whatever, and, and how it had helped their professional life, you know. And this was all around— I wasn't even connected with some of them, they just commenting. So it was really good to see, and I think it just kind of hit home what I've just said is you've got all these random people, not all of them did jiu-jitsu, but they all had their own thing that they found and it helped their professional life. Um, so honestly, that's, that's my biggest thing to everyone is make sure you've still got an outlet and you've still got something that you can put your energy into that's going to give back to your professional career and not take away from it.

So absolutely love that, mate. Asher, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you, mate. Honestly, not only have you, um, given us an absolute masterclass in BD, but you've also told us about how important mindset is, and you do jiu-jitsu, which is awesome.

Yeah, awesome.

Yeah, so thank you, brother. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your time and really great podcast.

So thank you, man.

No, my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.

Mm.