BD Tips From a 750K Biller!

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is John Joe. John Joe is the director of Metric. Not only is he in charge of a team of 30 high-performing recruiters, he's also a $750K biller. And this blew my mind— the average recruiter at Metric is billing $419,000. Yes, that's the average. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about how John Joe and Metric have managed to create such high-performing recruiters. We're going to be speaking about specific BD tactics that the company uses in order to win new accounts, and we'll also be talking about the fundamental things that every top biller at Metric has in bucketloads in order to be successful. Guys, trust me, this is going to be a fantastic episode. So as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we?

John Joe, welcome to Top Billers Toolkit. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Cheers guys, no, happy to be here. Looking forward to, uh, discussing everything recruitment with you.

Awesome. I have to say, I'm, I'm just ridiculously impressed with yourself, John Joe, and your, and your company, because it sounds like you are breeding just incredible billers, and the consistency of your average biller is, is quite impressive. I've never heard of anything quite like this before, so Yeah, I'm really excited to get into this. So without further ado, let's get into the very first question that we ask everyone, which is: what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Yeah, good question, um, and something we've probably given more consideration to over the last year or so, um, when we've sort of looked back on, on why we've outperformed the market and what is it, what is our sort of DNA or our secret sauce. For me, I think mindset comfortably is the one of those three. I'm yet to see a sort of piece of software that, that can come close to mindset. Strategy is important, of course, and, and having a blueprint and setting people up for success is important. We've developed world-class L&D over the last few years, which is integral to our success. But I think, I think it's more the mindset of an individual coming into Metric and how we prepare them is more important than necessarily what we teach them. If I look back at my own personal success, like, yes, I know my market well, I'm good at doing searches, I'm good at selling retainers, but that isn't possible if you don't approach it with the right mindset and the right will and drive to succeed in what is essentially a commercial revenue generation job. So for me, recruitment's 80% mindset. Um, for sure.

Really interesting. I'm so fascinated because I have to say, a lot of the top, a lot of the top billers, when they say like, what's, what is that thing that differentiates the top biller, it's normally drive. That's what I get, drive or mindset. Um, from the people that you've interviewed and or have worked with, what is that drive being fueled by? Is it for success? Is it Fear of failure? Is it to buy a new house? Is it a new car? Is it to impress everybody? What do you think?

Good question again. I think, um, a combination. For me, the people that I've seen do well in recruitment, and we've got lots working for us here at Metric, they're not, they're not necessarily motivated by being able to buy themselves things. And, and in a weird way, it's not solely a money motivation. Of course money is essential, I think, and people do recruitment to make good money. But I think beyond that, it's a real competitiveness within themselves and like wanting to prove to themselves that they can be the best. And we've done well getting that sort of competitiveness right but not making it toxic here. So everyone's really happy for everyone to do well, and there is that collaboration within the company. Lots of split fees go on every day, um, But for me, it's a real competitiveness. I was saying before we started, but I used to go to school with a few guys that have come and joined us, and there's still that thing that they probably want to outperform me and I want to outperform them whilst we're still happy for each other when we do well. So, yeah, a combination of things. But I think that it's hard to teach that, I think. And we will interview people sometimes, and everyone likes to think they're competitive. I've realized, but it's also relative, isn't it? So like being competitive, I don't know, when your football team loses and you're upset like that, sure. But I think you soon find out if people really are competitive when they're in a leaderboard environment, they're around top, top performers. And we always say that there's not as many sort of competitive environments, or as competitive an environment as working for Metric, really. So you soon find out whether you actually have that inner drive when you're thrust into that environment.

That's a really, really good point. Um, sorry, Sam, I'm just gonna ask one more question, then you can jump in if that's all right. Um, that's a really good point because I think you're right, everyone thinks or would like to think they have a competitive nature, but then it's all, as you say, it's relative. Like, the person at the top of the leaderboard might be ridiculously competitive. How do you fish that out when you're interviewing? Is it hard to tell? Can you actually spot and say, oh, this person is top of their game when it comes to competitiveness? What do you think?

Yeah, I— it's difficult, obviously, but we're getting better at identifying that. I think what we look for when we hire is someone who's achieved something in their life, which sounds like such an obvious thing to say, but I think the stereotype is someone who's into sport in recruitment goes hand in hand. That's been the case for decades. For us, it doesn't have to be sport, but someone who has pursued something and has had to go through periods of hardship to get to where they want to get to, whether that's academic or whether it's sport or whether it's learning an instrument or whether it's going and living an experience in a different culture. But someone who's got out of their comfort zone and had to strive to achieve something is what we look for, really. And we're getting better at identifying that. I think what we're really good at is almost trying to put people off when we interview them.

Interesting.

Interesting.

And being really, really clear about the expectations because there are so many perks and benefits of working at Metric. And when I first joined, I was probably guilty of focusing on them and selling the dream because I am so passionate about working for Metric and I get to enjoy all the benefits of it without probably really highlighting the hard work required. And like, when we're talking competitive, we mean that the top biller who's on track to do a million this year, he's, he's one year into recruitment, and he will— he would, he would do it. Yeah. And he'll do it. If you go above him on the leaderboard for like a day, you feel the reaction, and it, and it matters to be first, which again, you can't teach that, can you? Like, I don't Amazing. There's no question.

A million in the first year, that's unbelievable.

For sure.

We're halfway through our financial year now. I think he's on $560,000. Um, dollars. So, so yeah, um, he's flying. And, and again, a year and 2 months ago, he didn't know what recruitment was. So there's something there, isn't there?

Insane. So can we jump into that? Um, this guy who's, you know, is a year into recruitment and on track to billing a million, or has billed a million, What is he doing in order to get such good— outside of mindset, because we know his mindset is probably on point in order to get to that level— what is he doing tactically in order to build such high numbers within such a short period of time of understanding recruitment or being in recruitment? John Joe, what would you say?

For sure, good question. Yeah, so the environment is a big thing, and he's an incredibly impressive guy and he's worked incredibly hard for it, but he's, he's one of many. That have got up to those levels that quick. It certainly isn't a one-off. Again, our average billing's been $419K. Like, that's the standard. And I think if the standard in the company were half that, maybe he wouldn't be at that level. I think you kind of acclimatize to what you're surrounded by. But that's me probably trying to take the credit for his success. But the big thing for him, so he recruits, we recruit in really high-growth end markets. So we do bio, which is life science and medtech, and we do geo, which is engineering and infrastructure. He's on the bio side, so he recruits within CDMO, which is a niche. So he, when he joined, he made it his life's goal to know everyone in that industry. So he now knows comfortably, knows every single BD director or VP business development or general manager in that space. He's had conversations I'm talking hundreds of conversations a week to make sure that he built out a network, right? So like, I see a lot of recruiters that never really crack it because they're 3, 4 years in and they don't have a network. Like, no one knows who they are. And if no one knows who you are, you don't get inbound leads, you don't hear about things going on within the industry, and you're on the outside looking in almost. Whereas, whereas he's on the inside. He is— if something is going on in that industry, he's aware of it. And it's all happening around him as opposed to him on the outside looking in. He's been to a conference, so he was in DCAT, the conference in New York a couple of weeks ago. 40 client meetings in 3 days.

Oh wow.

Inundated with activity. Yeah. So, so I think that's been a big thing for him is making sure he knows as many people as possible so that when he pulls a vacancy with a client, he doesn't do a search. There's no search. It's like, right, I've got 5 people on the West Coast right now that are perfect. Let me send the shortlist over. And he's got that going on. A lot. So he's setting up between 30 and 45 first stage interviews a month. Um, but that's not possible if he didn't invest in his network. So that's something we're really big on, is making sure people know who you are. It's something that I've worked tirelessly on myself over the years. He's just done it way quicker than anyone I've seen.

Interesting. I mean, that's, that's still hard, right? To— I mean, he's probably— I'm sure he's got the gift of the gab. He's probably very good at speaking to people. But again, if you're new to recruitment, how do you penetrate and speak to that many people? Is it just a case of picking up the phone and, you know, trying to start a conversation? Is it, you know, sending loads of emails? How do you start those conversations and build those relationships, do you think?

Yeah, I mean, it's all with a view to speaking to people on the phone. Like, that is, is how you build relationships, and we're pretty, we're pretty clear on that. Um, what you have to do to get that call set up whether it's an email, whether it's a recommendation or a referral, is something we're big on. Lots of LinkedIn work. So we're all working to improve our LinkedIn sort of brand. We've invested a lot in marketing over the last, over the last year or so. So it's a combination of factors. But, um, but he is, he is top of the call stats most weeks. And I know that's probably quite an old-fashioned metric to like measure, and we're not a company that are dinosaurs and cold calling through lists and to receptions. Like, we're the opposite of that. But I think if you reach out to 100 people, or let's say you reach out to 50 people a day within your market and you get calls set up with 20 of them a day, you're making 100 calls a week. If you're working with the intensity that we kind of train people to work at, that's more than doable. Like, it isn't I don't think too much to ask to want to do that. But I think the big differentiator here versus maybe environments I've seen or worked in in the past is that people want to make those calls here. That's the big thing. You're not sitting at your desk thinking, geez, like I need to make another 10 calls or someone's going to be breathing down my neck. Like it isn't that at all. It's if I make these 10 calls, I could make an extra 10 grand this month. Like that is the mindset. And again, that's why mindset is so important. Because he could be the best person in, in the world at on the phone, but if he doesn't have the will to pick up the phone and, and the excitement behind it, then it doesn't happen.

So yeah, really interesting. Out of interest, Jonjo, have you seen a correlation between the people who are billing the most in your company and the amount of calls they make? Is there a clear correlation between more calls and more money made?

Yeah, for sure, for sure, 100%. So it's something we still value It is phone time because again, that's where you become part of the industry is when you're on the phone to people within the industry, candidates, clients. We kind of refer to everyone as a contact somewhere in the middle and someone that you can have a holistic relationship with long term. You can't do that if you're not on the phone. It's impossible to build relationships if you're sat thinking about it or I don't know, just tapping away and And of course, there's a subtlety to setting it up, and you have to be active on LinkedIn, you have to send a lot of emails. But yeah, you don't— there is a clear correlation between people that, again, people that have a network is how I would refer to it, but that is built through, through being on the phone versus people who, when they get a new role on, have no candidates for the role, so they have to go and do a search, and that It takes them maybe 3, 4 days to send candidates, and that 3, 4 days, like, that's a long time in recruitment, especially if there are other recruiters on the role. So we train people to build networks and to want to be almost like a KOL within that space and a thought leader within that space. And that takes time, obviously, and you don't just do that within a couple of months, but it comes through conversation. It comes from embedding yourself within that industry and saying, I want to be the go-to. So I recruit within neurotech, which is a niche within medical devices, to the point where I was the only neurotech recruiter in the world when I started out over 8 years ago. And I wanted to establish myself as the number one, the go-to, that if someone's got a vacancy within neurotech, will you come to me? Because I've got the best network, I'm known, and I've been able to build on that over a period of time. And we want people in Metric to emulate that within their specialism.

Essentially. Really interesting. I— and you kind of touch upon this, uh, John Joe, but I just want to go into a little bit more detail because I find it fascinating. Um, if you're like 3 to 5 years down the line as a recruiter, I understand that you've brought the— you've got the market knowledge, you've probably got a pool of candidates that you're sitting on that are really experienced.

Yeah.

Um, you understand what's going on, and so you can probably provide a lot more value up front. But as a new recruiter, again, building relationships, I still find it interesting that they're able to build this guy, for example, like such a wide network in such a short space of time? Like, how does he introduce those conversations? Does he lead with value with candidates, or does he just really get them comfortable and, you know, have a good conversation with them? What's the, what's the strategy around that, if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, I think in certain core markets that we have, it helps that we've got a track record as a business, right? So we, we don't bring people into like cold markets necessarily. We've got enough expertise within the leadership team across medtech, me, life science, our CEO. On the geo side, we've got a few directors that have a good track record there. So you, if you're a new recruit and you work for Metric and you work within medtech, you lean on my track record, obviously, meaning that you're not, you're not reaching out cold to everyone. There's kind of an understanding of who I am, who Metric are. And that's the same no matter what niche you get put within. Um, but there's no substitute for volume is what I found really. And, and even if my volume goes down and I've done this for 8 years, you almost get outworked by someone who's done it for 6 months and has that enthusiasm and is making more outreach than you are. And it doesn't matter if you've got, if you, if you're better or you're better at searching or you've got a better network, you often get outworked. So I think, yeah, that's one thing that we're big on is volume really. And of course the quality has to be there, but you need to get your name out there as quick as you can. Um, but again, if you're having 100 conversations a week over a year, you're having thousands of conversations with key opinion leaders in your space. You're adding value. Anytime you get a sniff of a vacancy, you're sending over a quality shortlist within that 1 hour. Um, and candidates talk. At the end of the day, that's what clients want to see essentially, is high-quality resumes. Um, absolutely love that.

Um, kind of a bit off track, but I'm just— I'm fascinated in this because I was in recruitment for a short period of time, and I remember there was competitiveness, but it became quite toxic quite quickly.

And you did—

you're doing the opposite, which is encouraging competitiveness but harboring a culture of, you know, helping each other. How do you get that fine balance, Jonjo? How are you able to encourage such competitiveness but also keep it, you know, positive?

Sure, it comes from the top, I think, like a lot of things within the company. And And we were very intentional and our CEO was very intentional when we set Metric up 4 and a half years ago that we would have a culture of collaboration and there would be no in-house fighting about splits or who's owed what, or that's my account. There's none of that. Like we have so many shared accounts here. There's essentially all of the accounts are Metric accounts if you go down that road. So it's like, no, you're sort of given a niche and we want you to build that out. Um, but we want you to— we want everyone to benefit from everyone's account in a way. And you have to get the messaging right with that from the beginning. It's hard to— it's hard to undo toxic competitiveness when you— when you're years in, which a lot of recruitment companies are. You have to hire the right characters. Um, but again, if they see that I am sharing all of my accounts and I don't have that sort of mindset around it, then that that's all they know really is, is how I am and how Joe is the CEO. So, um, it is a difficult balance to get right, but it's something that if you've got it right, that's just the way it is here really, and everyone benefits from it. And people love getting splits, but split accounts, like, it's, it's a huge part of what we do, but very intentional. Like, that sort of thing doesn't happen by accident.

Yes.

Um, and, and yeah, you sort of try and learn from there's a lot of stereotypes within recruitment, I guess, and we've tried to learn from them and not fall into those traps really, and not be overly flashy and not be, um, overly arrogant and hire the right characters, I think. Um, so yeah, all of those factors make sense.

That's really interesting. And would you say that— and this might be hard to quantify or put an exact number, but Would you say that, I mean, for this, for this, for this recruiter, for example, that built a million, would you say that the majority of his, um, his business is won from existing accounts and, and kind of, uh, building upon accounts that you already have, or is it net new business, or is it a mixture of both?

Yeah, a mixture of both, but more so bringing on new accounts. So using our accounts to kind of win new accounts.

Interesting.

Okay. I guess, and getting your foot in the door and working on a few roles for accounts that we have existing, but then everything in recruitment should snowball in my mind. So if you get a vacancy, you speak to 5 good candidates for that vacancy, something should come off those conversations. Like you're not doing your job right if that's the last time you speak to those 5 and then you're back to square one again. Like everything should lead to something else in a perfect world. So we kind of, we've got a culture of accountability for BD here. So much so that we changed everyone's job title to business development something. So business development executive, business development lead, business development manager, because we expect people to bring on accounts. Like that is a non-negotiable. That's not optional. You can't get, you can't get a certain promotion if you've not scored over 50K of your own business with your own account. So it's, it's a big thing, and we equip people and we train people to be able to do that. So yes, benefit from the accounts that we've got, and we want people to, but you're not doing your job if you don't convert that into then something else out there. Um, so probably 75% new business, 25% someone else's account, I would say.

Love the emphasis you put on winning new accounts. I think that's absolutely crucial. Um, and I think for some recruiters it's not drilled down hard enough at the beginning.

For sure, for sure.

Sorry, go ahead, mate.

Yeah, no, I mean, exactly that. I think the recruitment market was doing really well 2022, right? I think it, it was considered a really good market, and we went globally from $5 million revenue to $10 million revenue in a year. Wow. And we're doing incredibly well, but in that year we were so conscious that it was a good market and then that isn't going to last forever. And the last thing you want to do is come out of that with people incapable of bringing on accounts. Like, that is the last thing we ever wanted. So we doubled down on our standards, we doubled down on investing in high-quality training, building out an L&D platform, equipping people to, to go out and win business and win retained business so that when the market did drop, which is what appears to have happened, we grew 29% the following year where most companies went backwards and we outperformed the market considerably. And now we're sort of benefiting and capitalizing on that. That again was, that was by design, like that was really intentional and really, which is sort of within our DNA. Let's not rest on our laurels here. Like, yeah, nothing's ever good enough in a way. And we're ambitious and we preempted what would happen. So I'd like to think that there's there are— there's no consultant that works for Metric that feels that they can't go out and win new accounts. We get people going out and winning retained business 4 or 5 weeks into working here. Again, by design, we're very, very big on it. It'd be easy for us to let everyone just work on the house accounts, and— but you don't grow that way, and they don't develop as recruiters.

So yeah, amazing. I— what— something that our audience, I think most recruiters love, is nitty-gritty kind of just tips on business development, um, because I think it is still— it's so varied in terms of how people, how recruiters do business development, I think. I mean, there's a few core things, but if there was one or two things that are the most successful for your consultants in terms of winning new business, what would that be, do you think, Jonjo?

Good question. Yeah, yeah, and it, it really does vary depending on market to an extent. So again, we've got the bio And we've got the geo side. They're both quite different in terms of, of what they require. So on the bio side, um, probably getting clients on is the more challenging aspect, whereas on the geo side there's a huge candidate shortage.

Interesting.

There are way more vacancies, way less candidates, and if you get a candidate at the right time, you've got a reasonable chance of getting them a job because companies are desperate for for that talent. So it's understanding the nuances of each market is so important and it's not one size fits all. That's why we split the brands earlier this year to respect that and to try and become world leaders in both. But ultimately BD for me has to be a combination of volume for sure, and there's no substitute for volume with quality and with personalization. For me, you In a way, you can't be representing a world-class candidate and being able to get that— doing candidate-led BD, you can't be that. Now, it helps if you have a network of contacts who aren't cold contacts that you can reach out to on behalf of that individual. But for me, if you're able to combine quality and personalization with that volume and that outreach, then that's a recipe for success. I think what people struggle to do is to do that repetitively with high quality and not cut corners. And it's such a— like, again, there's no crazy magic to it. Like, I've done it very well in recruitment because I'm world-class at doing the basic things in recruitment. No one specific thing is like groundbreaking. I think personalization is important and authenticity is important when doing BDD. We aren't automated and so many recruitment companies are and, and we're not that. We want to build genuine relationships with people, which is important. But yeah, like I always liken it to if someone reaches out to me right now and this isn't an offer for anyone to do this, but says I'm representing a $500K biller based in New York and they recruit in the life science markets and they work with companies ABC, I'm going to respond whether I know them or not. I'm going to respond because they've identified, they've displayed that they know what we do, that they have put the slightest bit of time into working out that we do life science as an industry. They've told me about their sort of performance. So they've quantified something and they've told me specific companies they work with. So that's companies that we would be interested in recruiting for. So in those 3 things there, that's all you need when you're doing BD for me. Personalization, identifying the person's network and quantifying their achievements. Now, if you can do that over the phone, brilliant. But if not, email, LinkedIn, InMail, you name it. And we really encourage our consultants to vary the approach and to remain consistent with it. Because again, so many recruiters will do that for a week, not get anything back. And then the second week, cut corners. I've seen it so many times and then say, oh yeah, it's not working. Like BD doesn't work in my market. And it's, it's like, yeah, I mean, obviously not if you, if the volume isn't there. So it's, it is that combination. I could, I could write the best, we would call them e-shots, a candidate-led approach. I could write the best one in the world, but if I send it to 2 people, probably not going to get anything back.

I'm always fascinated with human— some humans' lack of, like, they try it twice and think it doesn't work. I've heard it so many times. It's human nature. It's quite mad though, isn't it? Like, it's nonsensical, but it's like, there's so— and I've even fallen into that trap.

But I think human nature, yeah, it's just— yeah, yeah, people want quick wins, don't they? And again, that, that's human nature, certainly in recruitment when, like, you're targeted periodically here. So every 4 weeks you've got numbers to hit. And again, sometimes doing this type of BD, you see the results of it 3 months down the line, and, and people struggle with that. Um, but, but yeah, like, there is, there is no substitute for consistency and for doing the right things day in, day out. And again, that is what makes top, top recruiters. That's separate— that's what separates decent recruiters to the best recruiters. People that can remain consistent. And that's kind of a skill in itself, that discipline that's required there when there's so many things that you could be doing within recruitment. Just ignore the outside noise and just focus on the— control the controllables, for want of a better phrase.

It's really interesting. I just have to say that me and Ben have interviewed like 30, 30-plus top billers now, all billing various different amounts, but I'm amazed at how much the simple, simple and consistent things just done every single day without fail is the key to billing high numbers. It's nothing fancy. Like you said, it's not, and it's usually nothing groundbreaking. It's doing the simple things well over and over again and sticking to it. And it just fascinates me because you're someone else that said that, John Drew.

100%. And if you're doing the right things from a BD perspective consistently, you're going to have a good stream of opportunities to speak to clients off the back of that consistently. And when you're having regular client interaction, you improve as a recruiter. You're not going to improve if you just— if you're not— if you're never breaking in and having those types of conversations and pitching retainers and selling yourself and selling the company. If you go 2, 3 months without really having those type of conversations, you stagnate as a recruiter. But it's only possible if you do the stuff that no one sees, I guess.

Yes.

And you're consistent with it and the volume's there, and you get frustrated because you get nothing back, but you think, no, I'm just going to do it again tomorrow, I'm going to do it again the next day. And then before you know it, things start coming from it. And, and it's really simplifying recruitment because recruitment really isn't, isn't complex. It's probably the most straightforward thing there is, is a clear blueprint for success. And again, we've seen it so many times here that we've been proven right, that if you just follow this basic blueprint for BD, things will come and you will do big numbers in your first year in recruitment. Numbers that when I started in recruitment I didn't think were like possible for someone even 5 years in, let alone 1 year in.

Hmm, really fascinating. Um, on to that blueprint now that you just mentioned it. I think you've alluded to some of it, uh, Jonjo, but can you outline like a typical daily blueprint for your high-billing consultants on a, on a daily basis? What, what do they have to do? What numbers do they have to hit? Can you just give us a rundown, if that's okay?

Sure. So we've rolled something out recently, um, which is called an accountability plan. Um, so we have day plans for people, so it's important to structure your day. Yeah, but, but what's more important is being accountable to the whole team at lunchtime, so halfway through the day, and at the end of the day. Did you get done what you said you were going to get done this morning? And you put a tick in the chat if you did, and you put a cross in the chat if you didn't. And you don't want those crosses to be adding up. Not that there'd be repercussions, but because you want to be accountable. It's a company value here. It was the 5th value that we added in, accountability. So I think that may differ depending on each team. So on the geo side, I think for them it is do 2 searches and send 30 or 40 personalized tailored client BD reach out messages on LinkedIn. That's your morning. If you didn't do it, why didn't you do it? Because it's, because it's, because everyone agrees beforehand that this is all feasible. For the afternoon, I think it's send 2 resumes and do another search and make 15, 20 calls. The metrics we will allow the managers to differ per team. The point of it all though is the accountability thing. If you can drive people accountability for people sticking to what they say they're going to do and they actually do it, then the results come. I think it's so easy for people to talk about and write a day plan and have a great idea about what they're going to do and accomplish half of it because they're not made to be accountable. Um, But someone's day typically will be a combination of that, of personalized BD outreach messages, getting on the phone to as many people as possible, doing searches, doing LinkedIn posts. So working with our marketing team to develop their online brand, a real combination of factors. But you want to feel that come the end of the day, you've got 2 ticks. And that feeling of achievement, even if you've not scored a fee, even if you've not arranged a send out a first stage interview, it's important that you get that feeling of satisfaction. Satisfaction in recruitment. Um, so that has been a huge factor behind our success, is rolling out that accountability plan. Um, and that was important for me doing well when I started out because I was good at certain aspects of the job. I think I was pretty good on the phone and developing client relationships and selling retainers, but I would— I could kind of drift at times and say I was going to do something and not do it. And I was the only one that lost out because of that. So here it was so important that we want everyone to be accountable to each other, to the person sat next to them, almost like they'd be letting them down if they didn't do their bit. So yeah, that the accountability factor is enormous for us. We've not been able to grow to the level we have without the amount of contributors that we have. Revenue-wise, every period, every month, um, it's huge. It's like you've not done your bit if you don't score a fee, really. And the expectations are high, and, and that is a lot to put on someone. The expectation is that you score a fee every single month, no excuses. And that is high achieving. That is a lot. It's a high performance environment, um, but that drives standards, that drives accountability.

Absolutely love that. I feel like Whoever's listening to this should absolutely steal that and use it because it's really, really— I mean, it sounds so simple, but it's brilliant. And accountability in the, in the afternoon and the evening, and making that public as well, which I think is really smart because that's the thing, isn't it? It's like you're accountable to the team as well, which is amazing.

Really?

Oh yeah, yeah.

I think if people are accountable to themselves, it's not always a recipe for success, is it? You can cheat yourself in a way. Um, if no one else finds out, but if you're cheating 20 people in the room and you're having to explain why every day, you just make sure you don't put yourself in that position. And if you do the right things, and these aren't— you need to score a fee every day, it isn't things out of your control. These are things in your control. And if you do those things in your control consistently, good things will happen. That's the blueprint.

Really interesting. Couple of things that I'm also really impressed with you, Jonjo. One, you're obviously a top biller and managing a team. And you also got a team that's the top performing in the company, right? Which are two pretty massive, uh, um, achievements. Um, I guess I want to ask you two questions around that. The first one is, what are your team doing differently from the rest of the company, do you think? Because obviously, you know, they're getting better results to some extent and, uh, top performers compared to the rest of the team. What are they doing differently, do you think? What are you teaching them that's different from the other managers?

Good question. Um, I think the performance levels across the company are freakishly high, for sure. Um, I think the office that I lead has experienced genuine, like, hypergrowth. So we— I joined Metric just over 2 and a half years ago. Um, we're on track to do $7, $7.5 million this year.

Wow.

Um, so we run September to September. Um, so the— and it started out just me, uh, or me and our associate director. So we've built that out very quickly, but which we understand. Um, I think for me it's making sure that we drive a culture of leading from the front, um, is what we would coin it as. Um, and I think in recruitment you only get better in my mind. You can't, you can't get worse, really. You're, you're better today than you were yesterday. I always think today's probably the worst I'll ever be in recruitment. Therefore, the expectations I put on myself are that I bill more each year, really. And I think that's something that, um, is a big misconception in recruitment and a bit of a myth, really, that you can't manage and bill effectively. Um, and it's something that both myself and our CEO I've tried to prove wrong, and I think we have. And, and again, it comes from the top. So he's a top biller himself and manages a company of 70 people across 4 global locations.

So that's—

so for sure, so that's the standard. So like, so I can't do any less than that because I'm managing half the people. I manage 28 people across. So I manage marketing, I manage L&D, and I manage sales in, in our Nottingham office. I can't fall short of that standard that's set. Um, and, and I find this is probably going off on a bit of a tangent, but you can absolutely do both. You just have to approach it the right way. And I think people buy into the myth quite a lot and probably want a bit of an easier life, maybe. So you've done recruitment for 3 or 4 years, you've built well, and then you think, right, well, I'll just manage 2 or 3 people and maybe it's a bit less pressure on me having to build. I want that pressure. Like, I want— I thrive in that type of environment where a lot's expected of me and I want to deliver. Um, what we've been able to sort of develop here is a model of combining doing with leading and training. The two should never be separate. So it's not a case that I will go into a private meeting room and I'll do some recruitment and then I'll come back out and I'll start directing and instructing and like, that's such a waste of what I'm good at. So I'm able to sort of combine the two. So as I'm doing, I'm teaching and people are witnessing me pitch a retainer and sell a retainer. As I'm doing that and I'm actually benefiting from it, they're benefiting from it and they're learning and I'm teaching in parallel. Whereas people kind of separate the two and they don't need to. So we've got a real culture here of, right, I've just taken a vacancy on, this is how I go about it. This is the urgency that I'm gonna give to this project. And I'm sat next to 3 people and they're watching me do a search for 5 minutes, 10 minutes within, within 5 minutes of me having the phone call. And before you know it, I've sent my project out within half an hour. That's what they've learned more in that half an hour just watching me do that than they ever could in a classroom with no, with no context. Right. So like we developed a culture of both. So therefore our leadership team beneath me are all top, top billers managing big teams and that, and hopefully that will continue.

Love that.

What I really want to know, because I feel like you've set this, you guys have set the standard for that to manage a team and continue billing huge numbers. That is, that is, um, unheard of, I would say, in other companies that I've spoken to, interviewed at. Um, I want to know your day plan, Jonjo. How are you doing so many things and, and remaining top biller? Like, what does your day look like? Is it waking up at the— in the morning and working insane hours? Is it just being very organized? Can you give me an idea of what your day/week looks like?

Sure. Nowhere near as organized as I should be, to be honest. And that's genuine. And I know everyone will say that, but, but really I'm not. Um, we recruit 95% of our businesses in the US. I live in the UK and I manage a team in the UK, so we're not even on the same time zone as a lot of the work we do. Now, some people could see that as a negative. We spin that as a positive. So what, when I get into work at 8, half 8 in the morning, I've got 4 hours really before I'm having phone calls. Now I work globally and we do bits in Europe, but generally speaking, the US is the center of what we do. Those 4 hours are integral to me and those 4 hours are easily wasted, I think, because you're not necessarily on the phone, but there's so much that you can be doing within those 4 hours if you're disciplined and creative. So that's where like the creative BD comes in, in those hours in the morning. And it's being accountable during those hours because it's so easy to drift through to the afternoon and having not really done anything quantifiable or impactful. So I think we're really big on setting the standard there. But again, I, it's not like I, we don't overcomplicate management here. Really, management in recruitment isn't that grandeur an idea. I think people like to think it is. But really, when it comes to how would I, how am I best managed? I'm best managed by someone who's inspiring me by doing it and setting a high standard and someone who I can learn from day in, day out in person, integral. So that's how I manage. So I don't manage by saying, right, I'm gonna do a 2-hour management meeting now. I'm gonna do some spreadsheets, everyone come in and we'll take some time out. That's such a waste of what I'm good at. So I manage by doing. And again, if I'm obviously a top biller, I'm a top performer, I've done it for approaching a decade now. So there's a lot that someone who's 3, 4, 5 weeks into the job can learn just from being around me and the other top performers in the company. So really, it's obviously you need to be organized to an extent, but you can, if you really break down what management is, you can simplify it. And just, and just lead by example. That's the big thing here, lead by example.

Love that. Um, would love to jump to— and this might be, it might be volume, it might be, you know, things you've already mentioned, Jonjo, but you've got your average bill is £419,000, I think, and then you've got others doing, uh, 7, 8, 9, a mil. What's the biggest difference between the $400K billers and the people who are doing a million? Is it purely volume? Is it something else? Is it hours put in? What is the difference between billing those two amounts?

Yeah, consistency, really, really. Yeah, for sure. So, so we're big on consistency, which I've probably got across over the course of this conversation, but like we added accountability as a value because The way our commission scheme works, it's exceptional and it really, really incentivizes high, high performance within a month. So it goes up to 60%. So anything you bill over $90K within a month, you get 60% off. So you make more than the metric. I've never seen a better one.

Yeah, that's mad.

And again, that's why one of the reasons our top people stay. So you can end up doing a big month and making big money And then I think in another environment, fall into the trap of then taking your foot off the gas a bit and blanking and not scoring for a couple of months. Um, but for us, again, we drive accountability so much and we drive the importance of consistency so much that that doesn't happen. And that's what the 7, 8, 900K billers don't blank ever. And I mean like that we've got a leaderboard now of what the last time someone didn't score a fee in a month. We've got someone on 22 months in a row, we've got someone on 17, we've got someone on 16, 16, 15. And that leaderboard to me is what I'm most proud of because I think consistency in any walk of life is important and we value it so much. I need to know what I'm going to get from someone day in, day out, irrespective of what's going on. I need you to turn up and do the fundamentals day in, day out, and you'll change your life in the process. So it's a win-win. But that's the big thing from other companies I've seen where maybe $400K is the standard. Here, that $400K biller won't score every single month, for sure not. Whereas here, they will score every single month and they'll do $500K, $600K, $700K, $800K. Those doing $400K probably haven't got that level of consistency yet, which again takes time to come.

Really interesting. Again, Cutting it back to like fundamentals of are you doing what you need to do on a daily basis? If you are, you're probably going to be at the top of the leaderboard billing a million versus the people who skip a couple days, still doing really well, but might skip a couple days as opposed to the top billers. They don't, they don't have it. So interesting, man.

Um, and we put it on, on the individual so much. Like, it's the biggest cliché in recruitment, but you get out what you put in for sure. So if someone does well and, and scores every month for a year and bills a million, it's because of them. Equally, if someone blanks for 3 months, it's because of them. They couldn't have any more support that we couldn't invest anymore in training and L&D and marketing. They couldn't be surrounded by a better group of performers. It's on them. Really, it is. And we really push that level of accountability where most others wouldn't because they would probably have a manager who isn't billing, who takes the heat. Whereas here it's like, no, no. I'm doing my bit. Like, I expect everyone to give it 110%. Um, and yeah, these are the factors that I think probably separate us. And we're always trying to put our finger on, on why we've been able to outperform the market and why we've grown so quick. But, but sort of saying it out loud, I think that's it.

Yeah, definitely, mate. Could mention quite a few things there that I think put you above the rest in terms of high performers. Um, would love to touch upon, um the amount of business that you do in the US. I think you said that 80% of your business is in the US. Is that across the company, uh, Jonjo?

So that's 80% of my personal business, but 95% of our company business is US revenue.

Wow, okay, cool. It's really fascinating. And what I know about doing business in the US is that, uh, the fees are a lot larger, uh, than the UK. I don't know if you've experienced the same thing, but what I would love to know— and it might be nothing, it might be something— Does where you do business take account into how much people are billing and how well they're doing? If you were doing the same in the UK, do you think you'd be doing as high numbers or do you think it's—

what's your opinion?

Yeah, it's being, being US-centric has been integral to our success. We are, we're a US business, so we're founded and headquartered in New York. That's where the business was. Yeah, the UK offices followed 2, 3 years later. So That's a big selling point for us. We compete with a lot of UK-based recruitment companies that don't have a US presence. We are US, like, we are down just by Wall Street is where we're headquartered. We've got another office in Fort Lauderdale in Florida. We're a US company. Um, would we have grown this much if it was UK? Absolutely no chance on earth.

Really?

Wow. Geez, like, the fee sizes or the salaries are typically 3 times. Wow. The amount for the type of role we recruit. So naturally the fee sizes are bigger. The turnaround time is way quicker. So notice periods are 2 weeks. So the cash flow is way better. But I guess, I mean, all of those are massive pluses for recruiting in the US. But ultimately, going back to what I said at the start, we want to become the go-to recruiter within our market. So for me, I want to become or establish myself, hopefully have, as the go-to recruiter within neurotech. The US is the world-leading market in neurotech. The US is the world-leading market in advanced manufacturing, in CDMO. So like, you can't be a market specialist if you're not tapping into the biggest market regionally within that. In recruitment, you either get market specialists or you get Regional recruiters in my mind, if you're going to become a market specialist, you need to know all the key players in the US. You need to know what's going on. You need to have relationships with the CEOs in these companies. Otherwise, you're not a market specialist. You're a, you're a local recruiter. So like the benefit that there are multiple benefits for doing it. Um, but essentially it's the biggest market there is within all of our sectors. Still is the biggest industry. Now we're expanding more in Europe. We're expanding in Asia Pacific. We've just hired a fluent Mandarin speaker who's hit the ground running supporting our life science activities in Asia Pacific. But the US will always be the market for us. Again, being a US company, that helps.

Really interesting.

I've got to apologize for coughing my guts out. You've probably seen me, Jonjo, like—

I've been too in the zone, to be honest. Yeah.

Okay, good.

Sorry about that, mate.

What are the—

because you have your, your consultants in Britain or in the UK, you know, starting relationships with people in the US. What are the subtle nuances that they've had to learn in order to build and start relationships in the US? Is there anything they've had to do different? They can't go and meet them as regularly. Have they had to learn about American culture? Like, have you had to overcome any obstacles like that, John Joe? Sorry, a few, uh, quite a few questions there.

Sure, sure. No, I think Again, being a US company helps. So we've got about half of our employees are based in the UK, half are based in the US. So we work with a lot of Americans. A lot of them are in our leadership team. So I think we have probably a good combination of US-UK culture within Metric, which helps. The US probably stereotypically is a more direct market, direct in communication style. Quick, faster interview processes comfortably versus mainland Europe or UK. Like, it's let's get the job done, find me over the best profiles, let's get going. And, and we enjoy that because that kind of mirrors how we are, or how I am certainly. Um, so yeah, but, but also important not to overcomplicate working in the US. Um, I've seen many, many UK-based recruitment companies in the past spent too much time trying to strategize how to break the US as if they're like a band like the Beatles or Oasis or something. And it's like, it's not, it really isn't that complex. It's the same approach. Find a world-class vice president of sales, find companies that that vice president of sales would add significant value to, build relationships with the CEOs of those companies, connect the two. It doesn't really matter what the location is really. And I think people can spend too much time thinking, well, the US is intimidating and I'm not sure about— it's the same approach. And if anything, they're more receptive and it moves quicker. So yeah, but again, being a US business, we all have US numbers, we're headquartered there, we have boots on the ground there. That's an advantage that I can't deny. Versus if we didn't have that.

Um, so yeah, really interesting. Um, I think we're coming to the end of the pod. I can't believe how quickly this has gone, John, uh, John Joe. So thank you. Um, last question from me, unless Ben has anything else: what are the biggest lessons you've learned through your time of, you know, you're a top biller, you've managed a team, you've been working at a company that produces insanely freakishly high performers? What are the biggest lessons you've learned, John Joe? Would you say throughout your time working at Metric?

Sure. No, good question. I think I would say that for me, the expectation that you should put on yourself when you're a good performer is probably more than most would. I wanted— when I joined Metric, I wanted to see how good I could become. I didn't want to sort of slow down and look for the easy way out. Really. And what I do isn't easy. Like, it isn't easy to bill 750 a year and manage 30 people across different functions, obviously. So I don't have my job— I don't come to work, it's not a breeze, it's a challenge. But for me, we've created an environment here where people want to be that. They want to work with the best and they want to be the best. And we interview dozens of top billers from other companies that are on 300, 400K. They want to double that. They want to come and learn from the best, really. So I think the Metric experience for me has been don't put barriers on yourself. Don't listen to stereotypes about managers. You can't manage and build effectively. You can, you can if you're good enough and challenge it. Expect more of yourself. And again, we expect a lot of our managers here, but they all build 600,000, 700,000, 800,000 and make a lot of good money whilst doing it and enjoy what they do as opposed to plateau after 4 years, which I've seen so many recruiters do. Plateau and think, well, that's me now, I'm gonna put my feet up and manage 3 people. I guess we're probably just built a little different.

Love that. And sorry, last one, because I'm always fascinated in high performers like yourself, Jonjo, who are doing so much, making a considerable amount of money. What drives you on a daily basis? What is it that keeps you going, performing at such a high level? Is it the money? Is it the house? Is it the love of the process? Is it a mixture of everything? Like, what's going on in your head? When you do so much work?

Yeah, it must be built within. I think it's not the sort of thing that you can teach necessarily, but a genuine competitiveness against myself, I think, and, and a genuine drive to want to outperform others and be the best version that I can be. Um, it certainly isn't to be able to afford to buy things, although that's a nice byproduct of it. Um, I've recently— we've had our first baby a few months ago, so I guess—

congrats, mate.

For sure. Thanks, appreciate it. Um, so you tap into different things, I guess, and a motivation now is making sure that, that she has the best life possible, for sure. Um, but the, the will to be the best really is a fundamental thing, and, and maybe an element of, of not wanting to face reality if I'm not the best version of myself. And we push that on everyone, and we always say everyone's got different ceilings in recruitment, and if your ceiling is being a $200K biller a year, fine, no issue with that at all. And you're more than welcome here at Metric. Just make sure you do $200K. That's it. Because what we have, probably a low threshold and a low tolerance for people that don't max out their potential. You just— it's not the right company for you. And there's a million companies for you for sure within recruitment. Um, but Metric isn't that. Metric's the place to be if you really want to find out how good you can be. And surround yourself with a very small percentage of the population. I think really work for Metric. It takes a certain type.

Love that answer, mate. Jonjo, thank you so much for coming, mate. It's been an absolute pleasure to learn more about yourself and Metric, and I feel like you guys have got a perfect concoction of multiple things that allow you to propel into greatness. So thank you for sharing your wisdom and thank you for your time, mate.

Really appreciate it.

Pleasure, guys. Pleasure. Much appreciated. Thank you.

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