Daily Blueprint for a recruiter Billing Quarter-Million-Pounds

Hello, I'm Sam Miller and you're listening to Top Billers Toolkit. On this podcast, me and my twin brother Ben are committed to interviewing some of the top billers from all around the globe. Join us on this journey as we explore the stories of these remarkable achievers and we unlock the keys to their success. Our very first guest is none other than the remarkable Chris Burke. With an impressive background in recruitment, Chris spent years masterfully climbing the corporate ladder before taking the leap and establishing his own venture. Today, he's at the helm of a flourishing recruitment business and consistently boasts an annual billing of £250,000+. So grab a coffee, enjoy the podcast, and let's get into it. Hey Chris!

Hey Sam, how you doing?

Yeah, good mate, how are you?

Yeah, uh, busy week again.

Cool. Thank you, Chris, for joining us on our very first podcast. This is a monumental, uh, moment for me and Ben. We're really excited and we're honored to have you as the very first guest. So thanks for coming.

Well, well, well, don't, don't blame me if it all goes down the pan and no one listens to it.

So yeah, no pressure, Chris. No pressure.

No pressure. No pressure.

Cool. So, um, the podcast, for anyone that doesn't know, is called Top Billers Toolkit. And the, the aim of the podcast is to interview top billers from all around the world and understand, um, what has made them so successful, what's in their toolkit that's made them so successful. So I think a good first question to start off with, Chris, is what would you consider your most valuable tool in your toolkit, whether it be a software, a mindset, a strategy? What would be your most important tool, so to speak?

Um, I guess this is something that people talk about a lot as far as, you know, kind of the tools that people use for recruitment. And honestly, I think the main thing is really your mindset and your resilience. You know, people talk about resilience a lot in recruitment, and I think, I think that's, that's the main thing for me because you get so many knockbacks in recruitment, you know, on a day-to-day basis, whether it be You know, someone not turning up for an interview, someone not starting the job, you know, clients letting you down or whatever it might be. There's so many things that have that knock-on effect. I think that is the key thing to have because you could sit someone down in an office and they could have, you know, bullhorn CRM that's filled with loads of relevant candidates and, you know, a load of, you know, clients already that are signed up to terrific terms. And, you know, you could have LinkedIn Recruiter, you could have some automation software, you could have, you know, the best kind of design tools for your adverts or whatever it might be. If you kind of fall and crumble, whenever someone says no to you or things go wrong, you're never going to be a good recruiter. It's as simple as that. So I think for me, it's about having that desire, you know, the right mentality, being able to kind of pick yourself up. You know, I mean, I'm got what, 12, 13, 14 years into recruitment now. And there's still times where, you know, you put the phone down or you read an email and you just think, for God's sake, and you know, something's gone wrong and, you know, maybe a placement's not happening or, you know, someone's been there 3 weeks and they've quit or whatever it might be. You still have that same feeling that you had in your first year where you go, oh no, why has this happened? But I think it's then the way that you deal with it that's really important. You know, you ask yourself the questions, is there anything that I could have done through that process? To have, for this not to have happened. And, and it's then maybe how you then move on from that. You know, you kind of put it to, you put it to one side, you know, it's happened. There's maybe nothing you can do about it now. Is the lessons you can learn for the next time you deal with that client or similar type candidate or a similar sort of situation. Um, but it's having that ability to kind of not sit and mope the rest of the day or the rest of the week, um, and kind of move on. So I think that's probably the most important trait. And I saw that, you know, before I worked for myself, when I worked in other agencies, You know, the best billers were the ones that were able to overcome the setbacks and just go, right, it's happened, you know, nothing I can do about it now. I can learn lessons for the future and then just move on.

Yeah, on that topic of resilience, Chris, because I was listening to something, listening to a lad a couple of days ago and he was talking about resilience and how important it was, especially in cold calling. And he, he said that when he was, when he was doing cold calling for his company, because he was working in a corporate company, he found it a lot easier to take rejection because they weren't rejecting him, they were rejecting the company. And then he went off to work on his own. And the second he started cold calling for himself, it started to get a lot more personal. So he had to create an alias in his current business, the one that he owned, and he pretended to be someone else. So instead of saying 'Hey, I'm Jack.' He said, 'Oh, hey, I'm Simon,' and he pretended to be someone else. And that was his— my— that was his clever little trick to kind of fool himself into getting past that and building his resilience. Was it— was there anything you did specifically to build your resilience, or was it just a case of, you know, keep on hammering until your brain almost goes numb to the rejection, so to speak?

I think I think the easiest way to think about it and the easiest way to kind of get over that sense of kind of rejection is that, you know, not everyone is all— there isn't one thing in the world that someone could ask you or give you that everyone's going to be happy with. Someone would reject it. You know, if, if you offered, you know, everyone a million pound, someone will reject it. So I think it's having that mindset of not everyone's going to say yes, and also not everyone's going to say yes today. But they might do in the future. And I think, I remember, I remember at one agency, I won't name them. This was kind of early days in my recruitment career. And obviously we had KPIs, we had a certain amount of calls we had to do. And sometimes we'd get to Friday and You'd maybe have a few more calls left to do to hit your KPI target. So there used to be a few, there was a few of us that had certain target companies that we knew would never work with us. So we then used to have a competition on a Friday afternoon as to who can ring those businesses. Get through to that decision maker and just keep them on the phone the longest, even though we knew that they were never ever gonna use us. They continuously said they were never gonna use an agency. And we knew that those decision makers were pretty awful really when you rung them, they were pretty mean to you. So we used to have a competition on a Friday. So it used to be fun. It used to make it fun. So it was then, you then, you were then putting your skills up against people that you know already that are never gonna say yes to you, but you're challenging yourself to keep them on the phone. And whoever won, or whoever came last, who kept them on the phone the least, had to buy the first round when at the pub.

What a great thing to do.

I love it.

So it's like the competitive nature that I'm going to keep them on the phone as long as I can because there is absolutely no way that I'm buying beers for everyone else in the office when we go to the pub.

Who won that most of the time, Chris? Was there one person that kept on winning that or was it like a mix?

Yeah, it was always a mix. It was always a mix, which was good because it then made it even more competitive every week. But yeah, I think it's, you've got to take that personal versus business side of things out of it. You know, not every recruitment agency in the UK is going to work with me. And there's certainly a lot of recruitment agencies I would never work with. Because of the way that they operate, or some of the senior leadership, or just the reputation of, of that particular business. And there'll be people that, that maybe I'll ring that'll just be like, no, I don't like this guy, you know, don't like the way he talks to me, or, or whatever, whatever it might be, you know. Not everyone likes everyone, that everyone can build a relationship with each other. So it's, it's natural that you're going to get rejected, you know, whether you're, you know, making a business development call or whether you're trying to chat someone up in a bar, you know, we've all been there. Um, so it's— you've got to look at it that way. And I think as soon as you learn to not take it personally, it's just that you know, the two people on the end of the phone just aren't compatible for each other. I think then the easier it becomes to take that rejection.

Yeah, that's really interesting. And on, on that note, Chris, of like, because you said in your toolkit you would say resilience was your— is your top choice, in terms of like habits or rituals, is there anything that you do that you would say contributes to your resilience? Maybe it can be something you do outside of work, or habits that you do in— inside of work that just increases your performance. For instance, for me, I would say cold showers, jiu-jitsu, and having a day plan written down of exactly what I'm doing. Those are probably the 3 biggest kind of things that push the needle forward for me. Um, so anything that you have whether it be inside or outside of work, that kind of are habits that really increase your performance, would you say?

Yeah, I guess, um, you know, that consist— that consistency of, of planning, um, is really, really important. Um, you know, if you could see my diary, you know, it is literally I've got those everyday mundane tasks that I have to do, you know, whether it just be, you know, checking emails, checking applications, catching up on LinkedIn notifications. They're in at certain times of the day, day in, day out. They're just planned for the whole year. And I just schedule them and there a minimum kind of time frame of that's what I've got to do, that's when I've got to do it, I've got to get this task complete. And, and yeah, it's that consistency. So, you know, whether it be, you know, adding a certain amount of extra connections on LinkedIn and, and things like that, making sure that you put At the end of the day, my end of day wrap-up is like, right, new connections added to the CRM, tagged against location, tagged against sector, something I do every day before I switch off because that's building my network and it's, I suppose, it's future potential clients, it's future potential candidates. That are there in the system, and that's been added every day.

I'm still amazed.

Really?

Sorry.

No, I said it's really interesting because, um, when we observe the best people that we've worked with as well, Sam, one common theme is they have a lot more control over their day and they're a lot more organized with how they use their time. And when I look at people that aren't, you know, they're still good recruiters, but they're not necessarily top billers, there's a lot more fluidity and a laissez-faire attitude with how they treat their time. For you, Chris, was that drummed into you from, you know, working through these agencies and being a top biller, or have you always treated your time like that?

Um, yeah, a mix of both, I think. And I think it's, I think it's probably as I've got a bit older that I've got a bit more organized. Um, and I think one of the, um, in quite a few of the offices, and I'm probably being careful what I say here, um, but in some of the offices I work with quite a lot of females, and they were always really organized.

That's so interesting.

You know, side, you know, side diaries, you know, everything, files with, you know, everything organized and all that sort of stuff. Um, and yeah, and quite a few of the lads were just like completely disorganized, like typical blokes, you know.

Sounds very familiar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so that was something that I— I mean, I'm fairly organized anyway as a person. Um, but yeah, that was one thing that kind of I picked up from other people. Um, of just, again, and that's something that's helped running my own business. Um, you know, making sure that I've got every bit of information, you know, in the right place and where it should be. Um, so again, that's, that's something that I'm pretty pretty kind of religious kind of what we're doing. Um, and then as far as kind of outsider work, I suppose these— I always have— I suppose it's not so much a rule, but there still can be times when, you know, I get absolutely flooded with loads of jobs or You know, I've got a load of candidates that kind of want to speak to me and, you know, everything's getting a bit chaotic and sometimes you sit there and you're like, right, I don't know what to do first. I always have a rule of just kind of taking myself away. Even though you've got loads to do, stop doing it.

Hmm, interesting.

Take myself away for, you know, 10, 15 minutes. And go and watch a bit of TV or just, just take a break, go make a brew, whatever it might be, and then come back and look at it again kind of fresh. Um, and again, kind of outside of work, of, you know, kind of at the weekend, you know, sometimes I do work at the weekend if, if I've got a lot particularly on. But again, I'll plan a certain amount of time for that, um, and then outside of that, it's then switch off and go and do other stuff and not even kind of go near the office, um, yeah. And just, you know, whether it be going watching sport or, you know, watching a film, something like that, just can completely switch off from, from the normal day-to-day job, really.

Yeah, I, I'm the same, Chris.

Like, when I'm—

when I stop working, I stop working. Like, my brain completely shuts off from, from work. I think I purposely do that because I work so much. Um, can you give us a little— you can say no to this, but can you give us— I know a lot of recruiters are obsessed with day plans, like exactly what you do during the day. Can you give us a quick outline of like what your typical day looks like, Chris? What you're doing on a daily, those little consistent habits. What is that? What are you doing on a daily basis?

Okay. So first thing is morning email check. I'm just looking at my calendar now. Morning email check and any replies. Then it's job applications and replies to them, whether that be a quick phone call, an email. I use one of the useful tools is Calendly. Um, so any application, I can then send them my diary with all my spare timing that I've allotted for calls so that they can, instead of this whole bouncing back of emails, you know, it's quick email. Look, thanks for application. Really want to speak to you. And here's my calendar, you know, let me know if there isn't a time that you can do. So again, just doing that in, in the morning means I'm not having to come back to more emails during the day. They're looking at it, they're booking calls in, and it's done. Um, then morning LinkedIn check, notifications, new connections, adding them straight into the CRM system. And then from there, it will then be on to resourcing. So on a Sunday, well, I suppose on a Friday, when I do my Friday wrap-up, I look at my jobs and I've got, I use something called Trello. Where you create kind of different boards. So that's where, as well as my job's being actually in the CRM system, and obviously I can see who's kind of going through the interview process, I have Trello and I literally just swipe things across as far as whether it's a new job, whether I'm creating adverts and setting up kind of advertising campaigns, whether I've started sourcing on it, whether it's a first stage, second stage, third stage, offer, or a waiting start. So I'll look at that and then decide kind of on a Sunday, right? I literally just sit down for an hour on a Sunday and just go, right, okay, this is what I need to look at next week. This is the priority job. This is number 2. This is number 3. And where I need to push things kind of through the pipeline. So that I'm not kind of getting a couple of weeks down the line thinking, crap, I've not even started resourcing for that role yet. So yeah, so after those few little bits in the morning, I'll then be resourcing. And then kind of mid-afternoon, quick break, email check. LinkedIn check again, kind of notifications, messages. And then again, resourcing in the afternoon. And then 5 o'clock, email check, application check, LinkedIn check. And again, that's 30 minutes, these little bits. And then again, after that, it's then either it's resourcing again. So that could be either actually physically going through LinkedIn and searching and approaching people, or it might actually be calls. And then usually half 7, 8 o'clock is then wrap up. So again, wrap up any emails, stuff like that, and then repeat. Wicked.

And then you're very organized, Chris.

Well, it sounds like anyway, because otherwise I'd be all over the place.

Yeah, we definitely don't see— because we— it's interesting because me and Sam just see lots of— I guess most of the people that we do work with, like you, Chris, they're kind of solo recruiters or maybe small teams. So me and Sam get to see a lot like just lots of different recruiters and, you know, how they work, their mentality, their mindset. There aren't that many people that have that much of a regimented way of working, I don't think. Sam, I don't know about what you notice with a lot of the people that we've observed, but it's not as common as I thought it would be, which is really interesting. It's, uh, you would think it would be like a natural default to, to kind of organize your day like that, given the kind of also the frantic nature of recruitment as well.

It sounds so crazy Yeah, I think that's why it's so hard for recruiters, from what I've, I've spoken to them about, because recruitment is so getting pulled left, right, and center. I think for most recruiters it's hard to get their head around a structured day plan because in the first couple hours it could be completely ruined because a candidate called them because they didn't get the job, or, you know, they're trying to put out a fire or whatever it is. Um, that's not an excuse, I'm just saying that's—

that must happen to you though, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And if you look at my diary, you know, we're talking from those first few kind of tasks, they're scheduled in from 8:30 and then they're finished by 10:00. And then 10:00 till 1:00 is resourcing. So that gives me that time to, you know, at the very least, spend a solid hour, at least a solid hour, just looking at one particular job, trying to find candidates for it, and getting calls or messages or emails or whatever it might be, the way that I'm going to approach that particular person to get that done. So depending upon the role and the location, Um, you know, it might mean that I have to revisit that job again in the afternoon if I get disturbed, you know. And again, that then, that can have a knock-on effect. So even though that all sounds kind of dead organized and, and great, like I said, you know, a client might ring me at 9 o'clock in the morning first thing and have me on the phone for 35 minutes. So that then pushes things around. So it's then being able to just kind of go, right, okay, it's looking at your priorities and where do you push things? What's, what's going to have the biggest effect? You know, so if you look at your emails and you might have, I mean, if your inbox is or anything like mine, you know, I usually get 20, 25 emails kind of before 9 o'clock that are absolute garbage that, you know, I just don't need to read people trying to sell me stuff and all this sort of stuff. So it's just, you know, look at it. If you don't need it, just get rid of it. Is it gonna push things along? Is it gonna make you any money? Is it going to make your job any easier or your life any easier? The answer is no. Just get rid of it. It's as simple as that. Yeah.

Can we—

I probably should have started with this, Chris, but can you give us a little bit of a background as to where you started? Because you worked in corporate for a while, didn't you? And you were billing to quite high levels within a certain company. You don't have to mention any names, but can you just give us a bit of a background story And then why you decided to set up on your own as well. I'm interested in that transition.

Yeah, so I'd come, you know, I left school not really knowing what to do and ended up in retail and developed really well in there. So went into retail at 16. By the time I was 18, You know, I was an assistant manager of a £3 million turnover store and did that for, God, about 10 years.

Whoa, I had no idea. That's mad.

About 10 years. So, and that took me from Manchester down to like Reading in Berkshire, lived down there for kind of 4 years or so, worked a little bit in London. And then wanted to come back to the north, um, stayed in retail when I came back, um, to Manchester. And then just kind of didn't really see a future in it, you know, kind of could see the way that the high street was going. Um, you know, I'd worked in a lot of the big, you know, kind of out-of-town centers and all that sort of stuff.

Did you learn anything during— because to leave— I left school at 16 as well, Chris, and, and I don't know about you, but my mind was like just developing then. Like, I'm— I think I, I was learning a lot about life, about myself during that time. You know, you spent a lot of time in retail. You were, you say, assistant manager of a £3 million, um, yeah, that was at 18.

And then, yeah, you know, a couple of years later, um, You know, I was a store manager.

Um, so was there anything you learned at that retail job that kind of set you up for recruitment, or was it completely separate?

Yeah, people skills.

Cool.

Okay, dealing with people. Um, you know, because as tough as recruitment is, um, you know, a lot of that's on the phone. Um, you know, when you've got I suppose your client, which is your customer. Some of them stood in front of you in a packed store on a Saturday afternoon screaming at you because they've lost their receipt and want a refund and company policy is that you can't give a refund for that receipt. Trying to deal with that on a Saturday afternoon with everyone screaming at you, yeah, it can be quite challenging. And obviously, you know, anyone that's worked in retail or hospitality, you know, will tell you the hours are not good. You know, from kind of 16, 17, I was working every weekend. So yeah, it was nice to kind of come into recruitment, get the weekend off. It's quite—

that's quite unusual, I think, for such a young age, Chris, to have to be in those positions at that age, I think.

I had a brilliant manager. Interesting. Yeah, I worked— the first retailer I worked for was River Island, um, in Stockport. Um, and my manager there, Kirsty, she was amazing. Um, and yeah, I suppose, you know, there's been a few. There was her, there was an area manager at another company I worked for. Who were really good mentors and I think could, you know, I suppose saw the fact that I was driven to kind of earn money and do well and take on responsibility. So I was quite lucky that I had some really good mentors there, you know, and retail exposed me to, you know, kind of man management profit and loss reports, all that sort of stuff, which has then helped me in recruitment, you know, with margins and again managing people. You know, one of the biggest issues in recruitment is that, you know, companies promote recruiters based on the billings. You know, so you go from trainee to consultant. From consultant to senior to principal, you know, and then you become a managing consultant. And there isn't a lot of recruitment agencies that have actually got the structure in place to give people that management training. Just because you're a good recruiter and you can bill a lot of money doesn't mean you can manage someone else and mentor them how to do it, because I think most recruiters, you know, the questions they ask, the style in which they say it, what I can get away with, someone else couldn't. What some people say, I wouldn't be able to copy them because that's not my personality, it's not my style. It would maybe sound false coming out of my mouth, where coming out of someone else's mouth, it might sound great. So I forgot what the original question was. Oh yeah, kind of what your background is like. So yeah, so I'd been in retail management, kind of wanted to do something different. Threw my CV out there, someone approached me. This was kind of what, 2007, 2008, something like that. And said, look, we're a successful recruitment business in the Northwest, just outside of Manchester. We're actually opening a new division for retail. So we're interested in ex-retail managers coming into recruitment, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it all started from there.

I feel like you've had quite a good work ethic, Chris, from quite a young age. You have to have drive. You have to have this internal drive to kind of push you to do that. Where does that come from, do you think?

Um, probably my upbringing. Um, you know, probably from my mom. Um, you know, I was, you know, she was a single parent. Um, and yeah, she just kind of always instilled, you know, the right morals in me. you know, kind of work hard and, you know, be honest. Um, and then, yeah, kind of at a young age when I did kind of do pretty well in retail and got promoted into management positions quite quickly, and I was earning kind of more money than my friends were who, you know, some of them were going to college, doing apprenticeships and all that sort of stuff. Um, you know, I kind of quite like the fact that I could pretty much not do anything I wanted, but I could afford to do a lot of things that other people couldn't. Um, so I, I kind of liked that money in my back pocket from an early age. Um, and I think that's, you know, and again, I suppose it's, it's just recognition as well of, you know, you're doing a good job. Um, even if it's just someone comes up to you and says, yeah, what you've done is really good— as small as that seems when you talk about it, it's really powerful. It's really powerful.

Um, it's funny because I feel like there's the— it almost feels selfish to say, but it's not. It's like human. And then the more kind of, um, humble reasons. For me, when I was an estate agent, I have the exact same feeling as well, Chris, for the thing you just said there. I was at a point, I think it was my fourth year in estate agency, and I was earning a lot of money for my age. I think I was 21, and I was earning like probably twice, three times more than a lot of my friends. And it felt so good to be able to go out and just like spend money without even thinking about it, and having that recognition from them that you're achieving. Like, that was a massive driver for me. Massive driver. Um, the recognition was great, like helping people. But I have to say, at that age, I think it was more for selfish reasons, more fun.

It was more fun.

Maybe it's not selfish, but it's self-centered is probably, um— but I guess that we're all driven by— so even now, I think we're all driven by self-centered reasons, right? We're humans and we have lots of things that drive us. What drives you now, do you think, Chris, now that you've been through that? Is it still a similar thing, do you think, or is it completely different, or is it a bit of both?

I think it's a bit of both. I think, you know, you still want to, I think especially now that I've got my own business, I think when I was in agency, you know, you wanted the recognition of being one of the best people. In your office, in your division, um, in the company, you know, whatever it might be. Um, but I think then kind of when I went and set the business up myself, um, I think it was firstly to prove not only to myself but to other people that I could actually do this it could work and that I'd be better off working for myself than I would be for someone else. And I think that was, to kind of get back to your question as well, Sam, about kind of that journey of, you know, that first agency I worked for, I was there for probably 12 months. That's when kind of the recession hit. Moved on somewhere else and then ended up with a bigger corporate, went in as a consultant and then ran a couple of offices for them as a manager and got to the point where I suppose it was just grinding me down. Of kind of loads of KPIs and I'd had an issue with my team being headhunted from another competitor that were paying far better salaries and commissions. And at one point, you know, I was running an office that should have been 5 of us and I was running it on my own.

Bloody hell.

And, you know, literally very little support from my new area manager. um, and some of the senior management, um, about helping to recruit people for the team. Um, and yet I just, I was burnt out, drained, you know. I was, I was leaving the house at 6 in the morning, I was getting back at 8, 9 o'clock at night. Um, And yeah, and then a friend of mine had gone into the rec-to-rec sector probably 6 months, 6 months, 12 months previously, um, and he was kind of saying, you know, come and work with me for a bit. Um, so that's what I ended up doing. Um, you know, literally left a management position and went and worked commission-only role Um, which again was kind of a leap of faith, um, to, you know, not have a regular guaranteed income. But I think that's then obviously what set me up to, you know, about 14 months after that, decide to sell it myself.

Uh, what was that first month like, Chris? You know, you left, you left. Was it like excitement and, and and a bit of being scared, or was it like just complete shitting yourself?

What was the—

what were the emotions?

Yeah, it was a bit of both. You know, I talked about setting my, my own business up for ages, um, for probably 12, 18 months, um, and, and then when I did it, it was just kind of like, right, I literally sat down, planned it and then kind of once I'd registered the business and it was like, right, you're live. I was quite lucky. I was quite lucky. Well, I suppose you make your own luck, but the second day that the business was live, I got a message via LinkedIn of someone that I'd been connected with for ages. And there was like, oh, Chris, I've seen that you've moved into the rep to rep business. Um, you know, we're only down the road from you and we're looking for a couple consultants, you know. Do you think you could come in the office and meet us? Um, I swear to God, you've never seen me move as quick as I did that afternoon.

Uh, should have timed it and gave it to them. Yeah, well, record.

I, I bet it was 10 minutes. I bet I was in their office in about 10-15 minutes.

Um, nuts.

And I'd term signed that afternoon.

God, that's not the universe's way of saying you're doing the right thing, then.

I don't know what is.

That's nuts.

And then 3 days later, um, I got another message from one of the— what? Well, yeah, one of the biggest engineering recruitment agencies, um, in the UK, saying, you know, our reps have let us down. 'do you want to come and meet us?' That's really interesting because that—

even because me and Sam have noticed that your inbound is insane, Chris. Like, it's, it's not normal to have the amount of inbound you do. And that sounds like it happened even when you started. And I'm trying to— I mean, I know, I think I know why you, you've got so much because you're a fantastic recruiter, but can you put your finger on why you have such an influx of people kind of reaching out to work? Because that, I think that's every recruitment recruiter's dream, is to have the level of inbound that you have. Yeah, because everyone that we work with is like, it's just, it's not, they don't have any inbound or very, very little inbound. How did you get to that stage, do you think?

Maybe it's my boyish good looks. I think it's partly to do with my sector, you know, because When I was recruiting within professional services, when I was with an agency, you know, yes, I got some inbound, um, but I've noticed a lot more inbound from kind of working in the rec-to-rec sector.

Um, why is that, do you think?

I think it's maybe a combination of a few things, of You know, maybe clients, potential clients that have worked with other reps before that maybe let them down a little bit, but they still don't have the function to really hire for themselves as much as they'd like to. And then I think, you know, potentially the fact that if you look at my profile, it's fairly consistent. I've held roles from junior level through to senior level at kind of small independent agencies and a big corporate. And then I've set my own business up and, you know, that's still here. So I guess people kind of maybe look at that. People go on my website, which isn't the greatest website in the world, but people always like the fact that I've got my dog on it. I didn't know that.

That's so cool.

So the amount of people that I've had potential clients email me or ring me and kind of mention the doc, you know, which is mad. It's mad. But, um, so interesting.

So simple, isn't it? But that's one thing that you do that you've done very well, Chris. Just the way you come across is so natural and like The complete opposite to what I think people think recruitment is like. I feel like you're the polar opposite in terms of how you carry yourself and the way you conduct your business. It's really interesting.

Well, I think, I think the key really for people, I suppose, engaging with you, buying into what your thoughts are, is just be yourself. And I always say that to candidates when they go to interview, you know, and obviously my candidates are recruiters, you know, so they should kind of practice what they preach and they should already know these things. But sometimes when you're in that position yourself, you kind of lose grip of some things. So I always say to candidates, Listen, the only thing you can do when you go to the interview is be yourself. Tell them what you've done, tell them what you've achieved, what you're capable of, you know, and give a good account of yourself. And ask them, challenge them, interview them as well, you know. Again, don't just go, don't just ask the normal questions about, you know, what will my targets be, you know, what do you expect from me in the first kind of 30, 60, 90 days and all that sort of stuff. Challenge them about why is it a good place to work? Why is this position open? Why have people left? Give me examples of where people have developed so that you can, you can kind of challenge them a little bit. And, you know, the other question I love is, you know, ask them, I'm doing exactly the same job. Somewhere else, why should I come here and do the same job?

That's a great question.

Such a good question.

I—

when you told me that question, I absolutely loved it because it puts the client on the spot to have to sell themselves.

Yes.

So few recruiters understand how to do properly, but that one question sums it up so well. I absolutely love it. So, so—

and I always, I always say to— I always say to the recruiter, I said, So whether it be, you know, the department manager that you're going to be working directly with or whatever title they've got, or whether it's the MD that you sat in front of, when you ask that question of why should, you know, or the other question is, you know, I've got 3 other interviews, similar businesses, similar sector, similar sort of pay, similar commission. Why should I, if you offered me the job, why, what's the number one reason why I should come here? And when you ask those two, so those two questions, you should see the passion and the drive and the ambition in that interviewer's face and what they're saying to then convince you of, oh my God, I want to come and work here.

Mm, yeah, it's really interesting on that. Um, now we're on the topic of questions and good questions, Chris. This is quite a good transition because I think— I don't know if you'd agree with this, but one of the main things that will determine whether a recruiter is successful in filling a role, and this is one thing that you, you taught us a lot of as well actually, is, you know, the, the amount of questions you ask during the job brief and how detailed you are. Yeah, and, and what is it— what's astounding, you know, we've been working with recruiters for 2, 3 years now, is how many— how few recruiters do a good job at questioning, um, their clients and getting a detailed job brief. Um, what— have you always done that? You know, have you always gone into— no, what, what was the transition and how did you, how did you kind of— what, what went on in your head to say, shit, I've got to be doing this, that, that is determining my success?

It was, well, I suppose in your early stages of your career as a recruiter, sometimes when you get new business on, you just get really excited. Whoa, is that, is that again that whole kind of differentiating the personal and the business side of things that we were talking about before and handling the rejection so that, you know, when everyone's going no, no, no, no, we've got a PSL, We don't do this, we don't reuse recruiters, blah, blah, blah. And then someone goes, oh, actually, yeah, do you know what? Joyce in finance has resigned this morning, so we need a new finance assistant, or whatever it might be. And you get that excited, like, right, wow, yeah, all right, brilliant. All right, so what's the role? And, you know, you'll scribble if you've bits down on your notepad. Oh yeah, in terms of this, right, send them over. Right, brilliant, great. Yeah, let's put a post on the CRM. And then you get on the phone to candidates and candidates are like, what about this? What about that? What about this? What about that? And you're like, shit, I've not got any of that information. You know, it's like trying to sell a car when you don't know what it does 0 to 60. You don't know what the fuel consumption's like, you know, you don't know, you know, the history of the car, whatever it might be. Um, so I think it's just kind of grown over the years, kind of, you know, you— a candidate asks you a question and you go, I don't know that. Why don't I know it? So it's that you then start adding things in, and then again it's then about being organized. So it's about, you know, creating a, I mean, I worked in some of the agencies, even kind of the big ones, and they'd have certain forms that you'd fill out, you know, kind of templates. And actually now when I look back at them, some of them were absolutely crap. They were rubbish because they were made by someone sat in head office. Who has either never recruited before, or hasn't recruited since 1986, so doesn't know the questions to ask. So, and I suppose those thorough questions, if, and again, this is another issue that sometimes people find is that clients will go, oh, I haven't got time. I'm just going to give you this like 15-minute brief. You know, I'll agree to your terms. Just go off and find me the people. Well, no, I'm your internal recruiter. That's essentially what I am. Whether I'm working retained, exclusive, or whether I'm one of 100 high street agencies you're working with, you still need a real deep understanding what the role is, you know, where it's going to go, why it's happening. You know, all the ins and outs of it. Because if you don't know all the bit, all the information, how are you then supposed to sell that opportunity to a candidate?

100%. You're good at challenging people though, Chris. You're very good at challenging people. What I've discovered is most people don't like confrontation. You know, most people don't. Why is that? Like, there's so many people that are scared. It comes down to being scared.

Scared of losing the business.

Mm. Yeah.

But I don't, I don't care. Yeah.

Which is why I say to everyone, unless they're in a position like you, Chris, where you do have, you know, you've got this incredible network and you're in a, in a, in a sector that's high demand. But if you're in a, you're in a slightly different situation, the best way to increase your sales is to have a good pipeline. I've always said that to everyone. Because your confidence increases massively. And so if you're having sales issues, it's probably partly a pipeline issue because you're too desperate and you're too reliant on that one person. So it's such a good point. It's really interesting.

But it's also, you know, and this is one thing that I've learned again from when I first started the business and You know, there was sometimes when I was in agency, we had national agreements with some clients and you had to work roles you didn't want to because the fees were absolutely terrible, but you had to because otherwise you'd have managers and area managers on your back going, why haven't you filled this? This contract's worth millions of pounds for us, you know, across the company. You just think, well, it's worth nothing for me because I'm getting a couple of hundred quid for what should be, you know, a lot more than that. But because some dumbass has agreed 8% across the whole of the UK, you know, you're just like, what are they doing? And then when I started my own business, you know, especially in that first year, that first 12 months where it was just a case of I had that stat in my head that about 54% of businesses fail in the first 12 months.

That is a nut statistic. I've always found that insane.

Mental, isn't it?

Yeah, it's crazy.

And I was like, I don't want to be one of those statistics. So I sometimes took clients on that were willing to pay my fees that I didn't particularly want to work with either because of the business. Or I actually didn't particularly like the manager, the director, the MD, whoever it might be. And at the end of that first year, once I'd done okay and, you know, I'd kind of survived, I sacked a load of clients and just said, look, I basically went back to them and said that I was putting my fees up by like another 5% and instead of 30 days, I'd be paid in 14 days and just loads of stuff that I knew they'd say, no, we can't do that. And I'd go, right, okay, we'll have to leave it there then. It's wicked, I love that. And then obviously kind of over time, it was then, you know, because I've always got that excuse. If I'm sorry, I'm just too busy, I can't take anyone else on at the minute. And I sometimes do that even before I've had a conversation, a proper conversation with people, because again, another thing I've learned is don't take too much on, especially as a one-man business, because you're just going to let people down. And I have let people down. I've let candidates down. I've let clients down. They've let me down. It's impossible.

And running your own business, isn't it? It's impossible to be perfect 100% of the time.

Yeah. And if a recruiter ever kind of said to me, oh, you know, I've never let a candidate down, I've never let a client down, blah blah blah, you're bloody lying. It's impossible. It's absolutely possible.

Yeah, it is possible. Now we're on to lessons, Chris. Um, I think we're coming to the hour soon, so I've got a couple more questions. Um, but what would you say is the one of the biggest lessons you've learned while running your own company? Is there like one that stands out to— one of the biggest lessons, whether it be, you know, a positive lesson, something that negatively happened that kind of taught you a valuable lesson? What was it?

I guess I just touched on it then, really. Be picky about who you work with. Cool. Clients and candidates. You know, you'll some, so the clients, you know, you need to, I suppose initially you need to get that buy-in from them, you know, that time to ask those questions to understand their business. You can't just look at their website and have a 15-minute chat with a decision maker and then trot off into the world and fill a job. You might do, you might do, but the likelihood of you filling it is slim. And the more you speak to them, the more that you understand the business and the role that you're recruiting for. The more you can then make an informed decision as to whether you want to work with them or not. And I guess the other thing is standing by your terms. I'm fairly flexible with a few things like rebate periods because I have to do very few rebates. So I'm not really bothered about that, to be honest with you. But fees, you know, I have a pretty rigid, you know, this is what I think I'm at least worth and I'm not going below that. And if they go, well, we only pay the others 15%. Okay. What are you on the phone to me for then if your others are doing such a good job at 15%? I love that.

That's one of the biggest things I think recruiters struggle with, and salespeople, is, um, being able to show their worth or explain their worth and prove it to the client. Yeah, um, I think you're very good at that, Chris.

What's, um, the other thing is as well is, you know, I place a recruiter with them, you know, that— I mean, depending on sector, you know, they're probably gonna bill £150,000 A year, take away the base salary, take away the commission, you're still probably talking $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 profit. Yeah.

And they're still—

and you're going to argue with me about $9,000, $10,000.

Yeah, it's nuts. Ridiculous.

Get out. Yeah. Um, picky about the clients that you work with. And again, candidates, you know, um, especially candidates that, you know, if you headhunt someone or, um, or if someone comes to you, um, especially more the people that come to you, um, but I suppose again the same people that you headhunt as well, um, you know, you've, you've got to think they're, they're not just go into those interviews representing themselves. You know, you've put them forward, whether you run your own business like me or whether you work for an agency, um, they're representing you. So don't send candidates forward that are not going to give a good representation. Now, you can't always get that 100% right because People are people and sometimes they can be knobheads and, you know, turn up to interviews and say completely different things to what we've told you on the phone. And hopefully you've got a good enough relationship with your client that when they ring up and go, you said they wanted 30K and they've just sat in front of me and said that they want 45, or, you know, you told me that they built this and actually they've told me they only did that. You know, that stuff does happen. You can't always 100% eliminate that. Human beings, you know, inevitably will lie from time to time. But I think with experience, you can sometimes root those lies out before it gets too far. But if you've got that thing in your head, none of this adds up, don't risk it. Yeah, don't risk it.

Yeah, 100%.

Cool.

Okay, last question from me, Chris. Controversial one. Um, cold calling, yes or no? And, and you have to give me a reason why as well, if that's okay.

What, should we do it?

Yeah, well, Yes or no in the sense that do you agree with it? Should we do it? Does it work? Would you do it? Like anything surrounding, is it a yes or no in your opinion?

Depends what you call a cold call. So if we're talking, uh, right everyone, we're going to have a power hour or whatever rubbish someone's come up with to try and disguise the fact that we need more business on. Let's pick, you know, 20 local businesses and try and speak to the MD. No, don't do that. It's a waste of time. That's what all the old school recruitment companies are still doing. You know, they might as well still have the Yellow Pages, you know, and go, you start A, you start Z, meet somewhere in the middle. You know, we're LinkedIn, the internet, social media, all that type of stuff. Business development has changed and the companies that are doing well through, I mean, I don't, I don't think I've made a business development call in probably 4 years.

Wow.

If you consider what the old business development calls used to be, which would be, you know, you'd find some information out, again, LinkedIn, but I don't think LinkedIn was as prominent 4 or 5 years ago as it is now. It's a massive huge tool now, but, you know, business development now starts online, you know, connecting, sending an InMail, commenting on the company updates, posts, things like that, getting yourself in front of those people online. So that when you do send that email, or you pick up the phone and start to try and spark a conversation, they know who you are. They have an idea who you are. Which is easy. It's not always easy to actually break, break into businesses and, you know, get terms agreed and, and stuff like that. But doing that sort of business development is right. The cold calling of just randomly picking up the phone and ringing someone that you've built no rapport with is a waste of time. And the other thing that used to I used to see people do was, was ringing them and going, hi, you know, my name's Jack. I'm calling from ABC Recruitment. We specialize within office professionals. You know, we can supply this, that, that, and the other, blah, blah, blah. We've been around for 30 years. Who cares? No one cares. Yeah. No one's bothered. That hiring manager's probably had 10 calls like that. The same day from another load of crap agencies and crap recruiters. The— if you are going to do a cold call, which I don't think you should do, but, um, at least have something to sell, have a candidate. Because either way, whether they say yes or no, You're going to get some information. So if I rung them up and said, hey Ben, you know, I'm working with a guy called Sam at the moment. He thinks he's a really good podcaster. He's pretty good at marketing. He's done this, he's done that. Is that the sort of candidate that you would normally hire? Now if they say yes, great. Okay. You know, how would you normally hire? Do you use agencies? Have you got an internal team? Blah, blah, blah. Starts a conversation. If he says no, or she says no, if they say no, okay, what sort of people do you hire? How do you hire? When do you hire? Blah, blah, blah. You're not being shut down completely. You can get more information. So cold calling, completely cold, forget about it. You've got to have something to call them about, a reason to call, or you've got to soften them up first time via LinkedIn or, you know, some sort of marketing campaign and then call so that they know who you are.

Immense value there. Thanks, Chris. That's a great, great point to end it. And again, honored to have you as the first guest, mate. And thank you for coming along. It was lovely to speak to you. Thank you, Chris, mate. That was really good.

Really enjoyed it. Hope you did too. Hope it wasn't too painful.

No, it was good. No, I'll look forward to the cheque arriving in the post as well.

Yeah, we'll send that tomorrow, Chris. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.

Mm-hmm.