From Ex-Marine to billing $800k. (This Guy is Obsessed!)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Josh Keeley. Josh is an ex-Marine and is now the managing director of Tried and Search. He's on track to billing £800K this year, but he's also managed to cultivate a small army of top billers. On today's episode, we're going to be discussing the importance of leadership when creating a high-performance culture, some of the mindset and habits of Josh's top billers, and finally, why his top billers are all obsessed with speaking to candidates. As usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's jump into it, shall we?

Josh, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Oh, thank you for having me on, guys. Appreciate it.

Awesome. I'm, I'm really looking forward to this one. You've had a fascinating background. Um, obviously you're a successful recruiter, but being in the Marines as well is Um, you know, quite an anomaly, very interesting, and I can't wait to ask you some questions about this. But the first one that we're going to jump into, which is the first question we ask all our guests, is, um, what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

For me personally, mindset. And we can go into the kind of why and how and stuff maybe later on. We'll talk about the Marines and where it's kind of carved out and ingrained into me like the fabric. But, um, Yeah, mindset. You can give me any tool in the world, give any recruiter a tool in the world, any salesperson tool in the world, doesn't mean they can actually apply it or execute with that tool. Um, strategy is the same. It's only well and good talking about strategy in a boardroom or whatever, in a one-to-one, a kickstart, but you need to execute that, put into practice. Um, and to do that, you need the mindset. Um, so that could be something like, me personally, um, relentlessness. So, um, that could be I'm always on. Right? Always on. Um, so you guys will be messaging me at midnight and I'm like, hey, yeah, bang, like it. And it, it's not for everybody, um, but it's the kind of tool in my arsenal that gets me or kind of gives me the edge. Um, and that's just something that I've just accepted. Um, and I'm just kind of, yeah, always on. Um, and then the other kind of sort of tool in that mindset piece is, um, uh, like many recruiters and competitive people just hate losing. So therefore, if you hate losing, you will not stop until you've, um, kind I don't know, achieve the goal or make the placement or whatever it might be. Um, so yeah, mindset is, uh, is my priority out of those three.

Really interesting. Um, sorry, I was gonna say, for mindset, um, Josh, do you think— was that ingrained to you from your parents? Was that through the Marines? Was that just something that's always been with you? Because obviously I completely agree with you, mindset is integral. We both know that you know, recruiters have very different mindsets depending on their upbringing and various factors. How did you get such a strong mindset, do you think?

Uh, yeah, you could absolutely, um, kind of attribute that to my mum. So single mum, brought, raised 3 kids on a council estate in West London, um, worked and grafted her ass off, was given nothing. And we weren't, we never went begging for anything, uh, we did all right and we had a great upbringing, but, um, You see that every day, the graft, the kind of the just the work ethic from her. And then kind of bring that into kind of joining the Marines at 18 years old or 19 years old after kind of sixth form. Um, yeah, you kind of don't have any other option other than build that mindset. And, and their, their job solely for 8, 9 months is to break you, rebuild you, and see if you still want to be there. And kind of they mold you the way they want you to be. Um, so Yeah, that mindset is built. Yeah, I suppose it's twofold, right? But it definitely starts in a childhood, whether that's, um, regardless of what your upbringing is. Um, lots of people, you can have a very good upbringing, I believe, and, and still have a really strong mindset. Um, but, um, but yeah, definitely, uh, the mother, uh, for sure, uh, raising 3 kids. I have one child at the moment and I have a wife and we have a great life and it's still really hard. And I'm like, geez, I'm like, only then you appreciate how hard it must have been to be a single mum of 3 in a council estate. Um, But, uh, and then, yeah, and then it's kind of— so that's where the fabric lies, and then built on within the Marines.

Yeah, I have so much respect for single women and men. I just know there's more single mothers, I think, out there than single, single dads. But so much respect for single mothers who manage to rear children successfully and, you know, build a business or keep a job going. I think it's, uh, you know, it sounds ridiculously hard. That's, that's really fascinating.

Um, Josh, can you, can you tell us what it was like? Because I'm always fascinated. I read, I read a lot of David Goggins.

I don't know if you've heard of him and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, stay hard. Yeah, stay hard.

I'm, I'm fascinated in the military process even though I'm so far removed from it. But what was it like, especially at 18, I think you said you joined, being broken down mentally and then being brought back up? Like, what was that experience like? Did you nearly break? Was it the toughest thing you've ever done? Were you settling in? Like, what, what was that like?

Yeah, yeah. I think, um, the benefit of being 18 or 19 is you do not know any different to a certain degree, right? Uh, I knew hard graft, I knew sports, I was competitive, you want to win. But so, so I had guys— so you can join from the age of 16 or 15 years and 9 months or something crazy, all up to like 33. So now I look at it now, I'm 30, I'm nearly 33, and it's like, if I join now, I think I know better. So if someone said, hey, go crawl through that mud, or hey, go like whatever, whatever it was, go march 30 miles over Dartmoor with just a banana in your pocket, carrying a load of kit, you'd be like, absolutely not, because I know better. So being 18, yeah, I had no kind of— I knew the expectation, You can never prepare for it, no matter how fit you are. And you don't need to go in there super fit either. The guys that are super fit, ripped, look like Adonis, they never ever, um, hardly ever, um, succeed. Oh really? Average? Yeah, they want the average person who they can mold. And also, if you're ripped, lean, and full of muscles, then you're going to require more calories, you're going to cramp up more. Um, can you swim for 2 hours? Because some of the first tasks that they do to you is just go, hey, jump in that swimming pool and, uh, we'll see you in 2 hours. Anyone touches the side, kicked out. Well, and it's like, that's right, trying to tread in water, talking to each other, and just for 2 hours. And like, some people like it because— and then it's just mind games, right?

Yeah.

And then you see the clock and they set it and it goes, uh, starts at zero, and you go, right, 1 hour 55, got 5 minutes left. And then it gets to 2 hours 10 minutes, you're like, hang on a minute, if they're meant to be here 10 minutes ago. So if you just kind of, uh, roll with it day by day. And that's the only way I got through it. And it'd be— there'd be other examples whereby, um, more mind games, right? Where they'll be like, hey Ben, um, I don't know, Ben, Sam, we're gonna go and, uh, run 4 miles. When you get around that corner, the coach will be there to take you back to the camp. And you're like, okay, cool. Get around the corner and it's not there. And then they go, right, actually, sorry guys, uh, um, another 4 miles, let's go for another lap. And you're like, Jesus Christ. So you do it and they go, the coach will be here this time. It's not And then you'll just see guys start dropping off. Or actually, what it could have been is actually 100 meters around that corner, the coach was there. They want to see who wanted to drop out now, who could keep going. And it's just all mind games, right? But 18, 19, your body rejuvenates super quick, recovers very fast. So you're training twice a day. Um, in the morning you're doing rope climbs and gym work and swim. In the afternoon, it's probably down the assault course, bottom field, running through the mud. Um, but back to your point, and the question is, um, I think I didn't have any expectations. Yes, they absolutely break you, and yes, you see fully grown men crying at 3 AM in the morning in a, in a, in a forest in Wales. But that actually gives you more kind of, uh, power, if you like, or you kind of feed off other people's weakness, as hard, as harsh as it sounds. Like Goggins says, taking souls, right? Yeah, on a 10K or a marathon, whatever. And that's true, right? It does build you up. Um, but, um, yeah, there's a ton of— there's a ton more to it. But being 18 and turning up to— so you train at the commando training center, which is called Limston, right? So Limston is a little town between Exmouth and Exeter down in Devon, and it actually has its own train station. It's got a ton of history. And as you pull up to Limston train station, there's like a sergeant major waiting for you, there's a drill instructor waiting for you, and all stood there. And they're like— and the difference to the Marines and the Army or Air Force is the Marines do not shout.

Oh really?

Such a mind thing. Yeah, because everyone expects like Full Metal Jacket or Jarhead or all those films, right? The Marines do not shout at you, and it's just an adult environment where, hey, do you want your Green Beret in 9 months' time or not? And if you do, go crawl through the mud and I'll see you in an hour, or go climb the ropes and we'll come back, and then you'll still be climbing ropes, or whatever it might be. Um, but, uh, that also could be a mindset or a mindfuck almost, because you want to be shouted at because you need the motivation to go. So if you're not self-motivated and you really want that Green Beret, or you really want to prove yourself or prove someone right or whatever it might be, you will fail because, um, they're not there to motivate you. They are there just to get you through the exercise or see if you can actually, um, self-motivate. And yeah, so that's so interesting.

What was motivating you, Josh? Because like, like you said, they weren't shouting at you, it was all off your own back. Like, what was keeping you going that whole time? You could have quit, you could have ducked out and done something else.

Like, yeah, um, I So I did, uh, my mum kind of put me in the cadets as I think I was like 13, 14. So I'd done that for 2 or 3 years. Um, so I'd always kind of been surrounded by other— because in the cadets, um, you have ex-Marines who will do— be the instructors at a local that just want to do some voluntary work, right? So I've always been around those type of men. And again, I was— my mum was single, a single mum, so I wasn't kind of surrounded by that every day. So that was kind of a bit of a— like, the only kind of male figures, if you like, um, that you kind of spot. And you go and you just think when you're like 14, you're like, geez, these guys are like double hard. You think these guys are? They got their shit together, they're disciplined, and they're like— and then they tell you all the stories and stuff. So that's a big piece of the motivation. Um, and then just wanting to like prove everybody, maybe on my council estate or people. And I remember I'd go— that you get, I think you get 3, um, kind of— you're allowed to leave camp throughout the 9 months 3 times or something crazy, right? It's not a lot of time you get to go back to your families. Yeah, again, 18, I didn't care because I didn't have, I didn't have like a kid or a wife or— but again, the 30-year-olds do, right? And, uh, they'd mess with your head there as well, just to go back to that point. They'd be like, right guys, um, you do this evolution, you get it, you run within this certain time period, or you swim this many laps, or whatever, we'll give you a long weekend pass. And then you do it, you bust your ass off, and then they go, ah, sorry guys, uh, someone's over there missed the time, so none of you are going home. And like, you can imagine like the mindfuck there. So, but, um, but yeah, so, um, I remember I'd come back from annual leave, or from the leave, sorry, on like a Friday morning I go back to where I was, where like my mum was living. I was still there and all the guys on the estate are still doing the same thing. I come home and go, wow. And like, it's almost the big motivator was there's more to life than doing whatever they were doing. Or, and I still go back now and some of them still live there and fair enough, right? That's, that's, that's the life they're building and that's great. But I just wanted more and I wanted to see the world, explore. And yeah, like I went all around the world and yeah, saw things that you'd never see. It's awesome. But especially, and you get paid to do it.

Yeah, it's amazing. Very cool.

Last question on, uh, military. I just love this shit so much, I could speak about this all day. I know, I know this is a recruitment podcast, but last question on military, then we'll move on to recruitment topics. Was there any point that you nearly quit? Was there like, this is fucking hard and I'm gonna quit, and there was like a moment?

And what was that? Yeah, yeah, specifically there was, um, two moments. One, I tore my hip flexor off my hip. Um, so, uh, it was just through repetition. There was no, like, trauma or, like, sudden injury. Um, and I was a week— so it's 32 weeks of training. Um, week 30— I'm gonna get this wrong— um, to week 31 is the commando tests. I was in week 26, where you're just about to go into your final exercise, which is a week-long kind of, uh, the final test of all the culmination of everything you've been taught. Um, and then you go into kind of the commando phase, if you like, right? Um, and then you're kind of right at the end But I got to week 25, I think it was, about to go on Final X, and, um, we were doing the Tarzan, which is a high assault course which is 30 foot in the air, no safety, um, and it's all different ropes you run into, kind of nets and stuff, um, and that's probably the most dangerous part of training where a lot of people would fall off, break legs and things, break backs and stuff. Um, and I remember I got down from the first exercise from it and I couldn't lift my knee. And, um, I remember I had to go to the med center and they were like, we need to send you for a scan. I couldn't even walk up a stair. Um, it just happened. It just like She said, I remember I had the scan and it was like your— the— I can't remember what it's called, but the hip flexor attached, like the attachment on the bone, it was just fraying away like a bit of rope. And over time, over time, over time, then it went— yeah. And it wasn't— I was lucky, it was like a grade 3 tear. So I had surgery on it. And, um, what happens is they take you out of training, your, your troop still keep going through and you're on the same camp but you're doing rehab. So you're in like Hunter Troop, it's called. And I had surgery and all this other bits, so That put me back about 5 months. Wow. Um, and the, the mindset of that was you'd see all your mates that you've been with for 24 weeks now getting their green berets, because they, they just keep going, right? They don't— they can't wait for you. So that was super tough. Uh, really, really tough. And when you go to the rehab troop, everyone's miserable, they're depressed because we're all in the same boat. No one's there to be injured, right? Um, and then I remember, so I got rehabbed, you do loads of tests to make sure you're fit enough, and then they kind of reapply you at the same level, or the same week if you like, back into the troop that are going through that week. So, um, I got into that one. Um, a couple of weeks later, you're on the final exercise, and the second time I nearly kind of thought, what am I doing? Um, and it broke me was I remember we were on the final exercise doing a night, uh, insertion. I had a, um, the LMG, light machine gun, and I jumped over a barbed wire fence, and for whatever reason, I think something went over. I think my back, my Bergen went over my head, and I grabbed onto the barbed wire fence, and as I fell, it ripped the middle bit of my palm there, and I could see inside it I was just like, oh, and then, um, I remember the one of the, um, training instructors come over, got some like an iodine or betadine spray and was just like, just like, just because of infection. I was like, and then, um, they took me to Derriford Hospital in Devon and, uh, she was like, yeah, you can't carry on because of infection, you can't even hold a weapon. And I was like, absolutely not, get me back into that, get me back into the field, um, and, uh And I remember just like being in the, in like the wagon, if you like, going back to the field of the lads. And I was like, I said to the training instructor, I was like, oh, the instructor, I was like, you are not pulling me out of this. I was like, I'm staying. I've just kind of rehabbed for that long, but I was only a cut, like, just so they let me crack on. And fair play to them. And, um, that is a point when I was in the hospital, I was like, no way. I was like, there's no way this doctor is going to tell me I'm going back to Hunter Troop and I've got to wait for a stitch to heal. And, um, so yeah, there are times where, uh, people just quit. And it's because it's just easy, right? Just to pull yourself out and quit and go, well, I tried. Um, yeah. And because of all the stats and ratios they give you of who fails, who, who quits, who, who passes, you can kind of just like almost, um, a lot of people like reassure themselves, oh well, I tried. And like anyway, it doesn't matter because only 6 out of 60 end to pass anyway.

So yeah, those are the statistics, uh, 6 out of 60, uh, roughly.

Yeah, yeah. As originals that don't get injured, you probably have about 15 overall that might go into the rehab troop and then reinsert and then pass. Um, but it's about roughly Yeah, 55 or 60 will start and then about 6 to 8 will pass. Yeah.

Wow, that's crazy. That's like 10% then, 10% pass rate, right?

Yeah. And you've got to do a lot of pre-, um, that's crazy, screens and briefings and stuff before you can even get into training.

So, um, it's probably slimmer than that then.

Yeah. Wow. So this is a good time to transition into recruitment now.

Yes, exactly.

I think this brings us nicely on to the next question, which is you've obviously transitioned from a Marine to building your recruitment company, um, Josh, and you've obviously got some fantastic billers. But would love to understand from your perspective, from maybe observing your team and other recruiters in the industry, in your opinion, what are the key characteristics of a top biller?

Okay, let me, um, I will answer that question, but let me just kind of rephrase that. I'll give you one bad characteristic. Um, which I see a lot, and, and we're trying to— and it's also for us to identify that throughout the interview process and stuff. And that is, um, just— they— I kind of call it like vacancy chasers, right? So vacancy-chasing recruiters who— other people call it like transactional recruiters who just care about making, uh, commission and closing a deal. Um, so we, uh, yeah, we're really big on, um, as an example, um, if you are just calling candidates because you have a vacancy, then you are the wrong type of person for us. Um, so, um, for us, uh, if you are just constantly calling out clients or, um, uh, just trying to email clients because you've seen a lead on Google or LinkedIn Jobs or whatever, you're the wrong person for us, right? So, um, we try and avoid the kind of vacancy chasers. So the characteristics that we kind of look for and what we think makes a good recruiter, um, number one would be, uh, commerciality. So I've said this plenty of times and on other podcasts, but really, really important for us is that do you understand business? So therefore, when you're talking to a founder or CEO, you're at dinner, you're at a conference, whatever it may be, can you actually talk to them about the wider parts of their business and kind of why did they start and what investment do they have? Is it, is it venture? Is it really early angel? Is it like— and then if therefore what are the ramifications if they can't find the right person and what happens to the business? What's their exit plan? And so you'll hear my guys and girls on the phone when they're taking like a briefing call for a new job, it'll be almost 90% of the call will be about the actual business itself. So what does your product do? Why do they do it? How is it built? Who builds it? When does it get released? And how'd you take it to the market? How'd your sales guys sell it? And all that stuff. And, um, and then we go into the vacancy, go, okay, cool, why do you need it? And what happens if you don't find it? All that kind of stuff. So commerciality and understanding the, the wider kind of business realms is really important for us. We teach the team on basics like what's a P&L. Um, every team member sees their own team's P&L. We show everything to them. It's really important at the end of every month. Hey guys, this is your team's profitability. This is your individual profitability. This is where we spent money. This is where we lost money. This is where we gained money. And it just kind of gives them that insight to, yeah, what, how to run a business. Because if someone's going to leave us, which I've come to terms that people do, that's a hard pill to swallow. But then I want them to be better people, better business people when they leave, not just better recruiters. So you can't come to us and we'll train you on how to take a briefing call or we'll train you on how to fill a vacancy. Because we do hire experienced recruiters. Um, so you should already come equipped with that. We can tweak it on the job and on the day, but, um, you should be able to leave us in 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, whenever, um, and, and hopefully have learned how businesses run because we're really transparent. Now, when we talk to investors— and, uh, we are bootstrapped, by the way— but when we were talking to investors, a lot of them were like, no, no, you can't teach them that because they could go and set up their own agency.

That's what I was thinking. Yeah, right.

They're gonna do it anyway, Sam. They're gonna do it anyway. So, um, at least the, the idea behind the commerciality— and I will go on to other characteristics, last point— is, um, we want this like Trident alumni, uh, all around the industry where if someone goes, holy shit, Sarah, she worked at Trident, guaranteed conversation, let's have an interview, because we know the quality of people that have been at Trident. Yeah, that's the idea behind it. And if people set up agencies and they compete against us, so be it. The world is big enough for all of us. It won't be nice, but it will happen. And it's almost a compliment. So yeah, that's going to happen. That's a reality of what we do. Now, the other— so commerciality is really big. I've said it before, I think the first point, but obsession and being genuinely like always on and being totally obsessed with your market. And all of our top billers are like that. And that does not mean to say you have to work 7 AM till 10 PM every day. But if a client pings you at 9:30 because they want to set up an interview in the morning, then it takes 30 seconds just to call the candidate, hey, let's arrange an interview. And whereas the, let's say, the average billers, they will wait until the morning because they're like, no, I don't work, it's past 6 o'clock, I'm going to watch Love Island. And you're like, come on, dude, like you could have, like you just lost a load of time there, right? So those are, that obsession is really important for us and it's almost infectious around the team as well. So really important. And then that leads into kind of the culmination of the last point, which is we hire market movers. What I mean by that is, to put it quite plainly and give you a visual, if I put you in a room full of all your candidates, are they going to turn around and go, wow, that's Ben Miller, I know him. And you may never have met them, may never have spoken to them. They just know you through the networks, the social media, through events, through word of mouth referrals. They're hard to find. Those types of people, but you can build them as well. So give, give someone the commercial knowledge. Hopefully they're obsessed and they have the mindset already and they want to be so immersed in the market that they're a genuine market mover.

It's really interesting.

Yeah.

Can go into the— because I'm fascinated with obsession specifically, Josh, and the other thing we definitely want to touch on the other things as well. But obsession, I find like if you have obsession, everything else can be solved in business. Like if you, if you harness that obsession, And I've seen it so much with successful people that everything becomes easier from there. The people that you are hiring, are you— do they have this innate obsession, or are you kind of feeding them obsession, or is it a bit of both?

Out of interest, I think, um, they certainly come equipped with the obsessive nature, and it's not necessarily recruitment, right? So we don't just hire experienced recruiters, we hire experienced people. So I'm looking for a 32-year-old that might have had a career before and wants a complete change. Because, but they have life experiences they can talk about and they're quite interesting. And you're like, well, I'd absolutely go for a coffee with you and I can talk to you for an hour about your previous career as a digital publisher or whatever it may be. Right. So, but then how do I identify whether they're obsessed? So we're talking about like, okay, what do you do outside of work? If I called you on a Sunday afternoon to say, hey, we're gonna prepare for the week ahead, are you willing to take my call? If I said to you, hey, I know it's a Saturday afternoon, but could you just, work with me quickly for an hour, we're gonna put a shortlist together and therefore we're gonna beat the other agency to sending 5 solid profiles because we picked the job up on Friday night. Like that for me is identifying are they obsessed and obsessed is an extreme word, but it could come if you kind of scale it down or pick it apart, it's kind of just really comes down to work ethic, right? And do you care? Do you really give a shit about the industry? So you'll see us, I do a bit of a news weekly on a Monday morning and kickstarts and it's like, right guys, This is who got hacked over the weekend. This is what this threat actor are doing in North Korea. This is what's happening with this election over here and this misinformation. And we're just— and then you hear the team talking about it all day to candidates and clients. And, and so, and then the second point, yes, the culture can breed obsession because if you're seeing people are always on or you're seeing people taking that extra phone call rather than going to the pub at 5 o'clock, or hey, no, actually, sorry, I've got to do two more things and then I'll meet you there. Like, those are the people, then it almost makes you feel guilty. You're like, shit, what else could I be doing? And it's like that extra phone call, that extra email, that extra message, whatever it might be, um, it kind of just becomes infectious. If it doesn't, it makes people— it very quickly identifies people that are not, and they just don't fit in our business. And that's cool, that's fine, there's a place for everybody. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's not like a light shines on them, but it becomes obvious over time, and it also reflects on the leaderboard.

Yeah, it's really—

I feel like it's, uh, definitely coming down from you as well, Josh, because I can feel your kind of obsession in a good way. Like, just speaking to you, I want to go off and make like 10 cold calls.

We don't call Sam, we can come on to that later, but our BD strategies.

But if you want to call something productive—

yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, fine, fine, fine.

But no, I feel like— and I guess this is the importance of leadership and following a leader, and this is probably what you saw in Marines as well. I'm not sure if that's Yeah, yeah, of course not. But having a leader that is, is obsessed as well and giving you that right energy so everyone can be like, oh shit, that's, that's the level Josh is working at and thinking at, and I need to be like that, and I would like to be like that.

Yeah, and, um, we're very lucky that we have like 4, 5, 6 people amongst 20 that are like that.

Really?

Yeah, it just kind of spreads. Interesting. And you do anything you can to keep those 5 or 6 because, okay, no matter who comes and goes, they set the culture. And they say, hey, you want to join? This is the standard. Don't like it? That's fine. And you can look at like the top elite football teams have the same and like anything, they all do the same. And when we built Trident, me and Charlie, our kind of idea behind it was how do we build this center of excellence that is a liken to England rugby, the Royal School of Ballet, the whatever it might be, but top, top elite performers in any field. Where's their academies? What do they look like? How do we move that academy and put it into London, into a recruitment firm? And then how do we then create that for us and then cookie cutter that into the Netherlands, into Dubai, into New York, into DC, knowing that if you have some, even half of what the Royal School of Ballet have in terms of their standards, values, just the way they operate, you're going to do pretty well because the barrier of entry into recruitment is so low. Yeah, it's a service-led business that doesn't cost much to set up.

So yeah, so 4 or 5 top billers out of a team of 20, it's quite a high percentage. That's like 25% of your company, right, that are like top billers. Um, which I— which sounds quite high, and I'm now thinking, how do you— how do you attract and/or keep top billers?

Is it the—

is it the culture of them coming and seeing other top billers? Is it— I'm sure it's a number of things, but what's your feeling, uh, Josh?

Yeah, so by the way, those 4 or 5 aren't just top billers, but they're the kind of the obsessive nature. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we have like other people that are coming through that you go, you could do 250 in your first year. We had someone last year, you know, her first 12 months did 340,000. Wow, it's pretty good from a standing start.

Yeah, awesome, man. Awesome.

Um, but, uh, so how do you keep them? Uh, one, you give them as much money as possible. Let's be very honest here, right? Yeah, we don't need that cash in the bank unless you're going to use it for like extreme growth. It's just sat there doing nothing compared to tax on it. So we have triggers in place in terms of like commission and accelerators and cash bonuses and all sorts of things. And yes, we have the incentives and we go to Dubai, Ibiza, and Dublin and wherever, Munich. And we do cool stuff. Um, we do like wellbeing days and stuff like that. So we go to Bath and we go paddleboarding, and it's like no alcohol. It's just like, let's just have a good time, be together and be in the wild.

And that's cool, whatever.

Um, so we do all of that, and again, so do most agencies, right? Um, but we're— me and Charlie are very, very transparent on where this business is going and how we're going to exit. And if we do exit, and we've put— by the way, we put 30% of the business aside for the team in terms of equity. So yeah, a big chunk. Right. And the idea behind it is me and Charlie will make good money regardless of what happens. Right. And if you make $8 million or make $14 million, there's not much of a difference, like a huge difference. I don't know yet. I'm not a millionaire, but I'd rather give that $6 million to another 10 people and change their lives. And so we're really transparent about, okay, if you make 1% of the business, it's going to make you X amount of hundreds of thousands. And let's be honest, if that's gonna be in 4 years, because that's our exit plan, we've been, we're in our 5th year already, you're gonna work for 4 years anyway. Might as well make $600,000 off the back of it. So there's that. There's a very transparent journey that people know we're going on. And because we are a startup, if you carve out a market, you carve out a team, you want to be a leader, you want to be a principal, like go do it. Show us that it's there and go do it. And all we care about is 2 things. Does it, is it gonna affect our reputation? And is it going to kill a ton of revenue? So the two Rs that we look at. And is it a one-way door or two-way door? And then we make this decision and go. We've made a ton of mistakes. We've gone into wrong markets. We've got in at the wrong times. We've stayed in too long or too, whatever, too early. But that's the fun of being in a startup. So those guys and gals we bring into all the conversations. We promote really fast on merit. But, and we're just really honest with people. Sometimes too honest, but, um, and sometimes it can scare people because, whoa, we're changing again, we're doing this, we're doing— we move an office again. Um, but you're like, look, you're in it for the ride. And in 5 years' time, the idea I have in my head, and it's a very clear vision, is 10 of the founding members will be on a beach in Barbados. And it sounds crazy, right? It sounds stupid, but a beach in the Bahamas. We've got all our families on this really long table, we've got kids running around, we're like wives, husbands, and then, and everyone's just become a millionaire overnight because of what we've done over the last 10 years. That for me is cool. And that's, that's like a— your alumni or your— yeah, that's for me. I'm like, that's the goal.

Love that, man. I was literally on the beach with you for a second there, Josh. I was like, yeah, I'd love to talk because like I haven't heard anyone say that, giving, um, your employees, the people that work for you, are sharing the business. I think that's brilliant. And 30% to hold aside is, is a huge amount. What can you tell us if I was coming into your business, Josh? Like, how do I get that? I'm just interested how you've mapped that out. Like, when do I get it? How do I get it? How is it introduced?

Depends. So if you're a revenue, a fee earner, it will be an accumulative billings total, or, uh, so that's a percentage of that. Let's say I go, hey Sam, you're going to get 1% in 3 years. Okay, cool. How do you get that? Then it's accumulation of years in the business. That gives you like, let's say 0.25%, so a quarter. And then the other 0.75% will be if you accumulate over £1 million in the 3-year period. So you have to be a good biller, but it's very metric focused. If you are, let's say, operations and support, then it might be a different metric we'll put in place with also the time. So yeah, it's kind of very— it's 2 metrics for both depending on your role. But, uh, it's very transparent. And at the end of every year, uh, because lawyers are expensive, we then release contracts, um, and then we go, hey guys, and then we actually issue shares and like frame it, give it to the guys at the Christmas party, um, and you are now a part of the business. You own the business. Um, so yeah, um, very cool. That's how we do it.

That's like, for me, I don't know if that's— I don't think that's normal. I've never heard that before. And if it is, there's very few recruitment companies doing that. How Have you noticed a difference in people's energy, motivation, psyche when you tell them you could own a part of this business and exit with a lot of money? Like, how does that change the way they work, the way they think?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, for sure. Um, I— it certainly improves the collaboration, which is one of our non-negotiables, but like the teamwork, the how people operate. And so they go, okay, yeah, cool, I'll bring you into this deal because I don't care if I give a split away because I know in 3 years' time the mindset is I've got a bigger goal and a bigger picture. The team are good. Like, the teamwork, everyone says it's really collaborative and the environment's great. Like, when people join us, I always talk to the seniors and stuff. I go, hey, how are we different? What can we improve? And we have like a senior committee as well. And all of them are like, we just all get on. We have Alexa playing. The only thing we argue over is the aircon and Alexa. Like, what plays on the— like, and I'm like, they're good problems to have. And some people's music is terrible. But, and then some people want to play hard drum and bass at 8 AM and you're I'm like, give it, give it a rest. Um, but, um, so the collaborative kind of teamwork and like everyone just gets on and it's— but then it makes it— but super welcoming, so it's not hard to kind of integrate into the business. Um, so I don't know if there's like a— people's mindset changes or it's hard to see it if you're not—

yeah, I get you, whether you've fostered that as well as having the share.

And you know what, What actually surprised me more is some people just don't give a shit. Some people don't care, like genuinely, right? You're not going to get 100% of people caring the same way you do, or, um, and that's fine. Some people, recruitment is a job. Again, totally fine. Um, but, uh, they don't last long, if I'm totally honest with you. Um, or they're not top, top billers. But then the people that are like that, that we might have a few in our business, they absolutely offer something else. So it might not necessarily just be billings, it could be something particular, and they have a skill that they bring, and Um, not everyone adds value by just recruiting, even if they are a fee owner.

Can you give us an example of what you mean by that, uh, Josh? Maybe one of your—

yeah, so, uh, one of our guys does all our IT.

Hmm, interesting.

So something like that. One of our— somebody else does all the social committees. Um, so again, massive value adds, right? Massive. Um, so just a couple of examples. Um, but it's not always about the billings, and it's about, like, I guess, the contribution to the business as a whole, right?

And how it moves the whole business forward. Yeah, for sure.

And then some people like really give a shit about taking control of the IT, and I'm like, yeah, sure, jam, go for it. You still have to hit your targets because that's our core focus, right?

But of course, yeah, interesting. I think might be— this might be a good time to jump into— you said you don't do cold calls, which is interesting. I'm always interested in companies that say, you know, that have top billers and don't do cold calls because, and you know, you're obviously doing something right, but What would you say in terms of BD strategies? What are the top billers doing consistently, do you think? What are they doing? Maybe you could just shine a light on that.

The obvious thing firstly is they do more volume of everything and anything than anyone else. And that's without a shadow of a doubt.

They do more volume than— interesting.

Yeah, volume is number one. And like, don't get me wrong, you need like super high quality to add to that within that volume. You can't— like I said, we don't cold call, right? We don't do mass emails. It's not something we do either. So we don't sending via the CRM. Um, the, the number one thing that pops to mind that they do do, um, behind the volume is, um, they are talking to candidates all day, every day. That is the community, that is the people. Clients will become candidates, candidates will become clients. Um, and how are you meant to know what's going on on the ground if you are not speaking to candidates all day? How are you meant to know that? So again, it comes back to my first ever point, which is the transact— what's a bad characteristic? I only call candidates when I've got a job. So if someone says to me, I'm like, hey, how did all the calls go last week? Like, what's going on? What did you learn? What's the intelligence on the ground? And they're like, well, I didn't want to call that guy or girl because I didn't have anything for them. And you think, no, no, no, you're meant to be their career consultant that's with them for 10 years. So you're, and like, this is where your candidates become good mates of yours, your clients do, and then you end up just WhatsApping people. And so our top, top billers and highest performers are those who do spend most of their time on the phone. Yes, of course, talking to candidates all day, every day, or WhatsApping people all day, all night, or on Signal or on Telegram, wherever it might be. But if I said to my top billers, hey, can you go build out my Singapore office? The first thing they're gonna do, right, where are the candidates? How many are there? What areas do they live in? What's the average salary? What's the kind of skill sets in demand? Who's hiring? Who's firing? And you learn all of that from the community of people, which is your candidates. And so if I said to you, hey, set up Singapore and you said, No worries. I can tell there's 60 companies there. 40 of those are hiring. They're all on LinkedIn. I've hit them all up. I'm like, you are not going to build a market. It's not going to happen because one of those might turn around and go, you know what, Ben, I'll give you, I'll give you a chance. Go on then. So how many Singapore dollars should I be paying for this sales executive? Or who's moving? Where? How many have you got? And so, and you're going to look stupid. So, so then therefore the result of that is I can be on a briefing call for a new vacancy with one of our top billers. And they will go, hey, Mr. Client, Mrs. Client, can you just wait there a second? Let me just share my screen. What do you think of this person? And they'll bring up a LinkedIn profile, which I know, I know Steve, I've known him for 10 years, he's done this, this, and then make sure we're on tracks really quick. And it's, I can get you a shortlist in 2 days or a day depending on how specific the role is. Not, I can get you a shortlist by the end of next Friday. And then what we'll do is we'll— it's, it's fast, really quick.

That's fascinating. This is like the third podcast, podcast top biller, or part of a successful company that says the same thing of being obsessed with candidates. Yeah, really interesting.

Yeah. Um, so relief.

Yeah, no, no, it's really, really interesting. It's a good lesson for me and Sam as well, which is, uh, which is great.

But so you're thinking of setting up your own agency, guys?

No, no, one day.

Don't do cyber, don't do cyber, it's not worth it, don't bother.

So, so that's really interesting. So number one is they speak to more candidates than any of the other, um, consultants in the business, or, you know, than the average recruiter. How does then that— I think this is a bit of an obvious question, but how does that activity then translate into more business if they were to bill? If you could kind of connect the dots there.

Yeah, sure. So, uh, good example, this morning I had a call from somebody that I haven't spoken to for like, I don't know, 3 months, and he was like, hey, like, you helped me secure the job. Like, though, actually, no, I didn't get him the job. Um, I was working with him for a while. I've known him for like 5 years, right? And he said, hey, I've just joined this new company. We need a VP of information security. I told my boss we're struggling. The agencies we've got are not— it's classic, right? And he was like, can you speak to my CISO tomorrow? I was like, yeah, of course, no problem at all. So it does generate that refer, and that takes a long time to build, right? So trying to convince our guys and girls who just started that want to pick up vacancies and stuff like, don't talk to a client yet. or, or do, but via the candidates. So you get like a lot of, um, referrals, like a ton of referrals. Um, and, uh, so yeah, so that's, that's a really big thing for us. The intelligence on the ground of who's hiring, who's firing is really important. So I'll give you an example. Uh, late last year I had a candidate that said he was getting an offer, um, to be the first person on the ground in the US with one of our, uh, with a client that I was trying to target. And I knew I had the guy's number and it's actually the only time I have cold called last year. And I called up the CRO and I said, hey, like I know you're about to offer this candidate. We don't know each other specifically, know of each other. Just a heads up, you're about $25K short. He would accept if you offered that. And I kind of just gave him some free advice. And sometimes they're like, who do you think you are? And like they can really, it can go, but I was like, look, you need to know this 'cause he's gonna reject. And then I just built a relationship with that guy over time. And we'd done 2 placements with his business in February. That was about $60,000 for 2 kind of sales execs. And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I wasn't talking to the candidate. Who I had a relationship with who's open enough to tell me that he's getting an offer from this business. So specific examples like that, and that's what we just call intelligence on the ground. Yeah, good.

Interesting. So two biggest things: referrals and intelligence. And that's, that's how it directly relates to more business. Obviously, that's really interesting.

Yeah. If you look at our Slack, um, our Slack channel that we communicate on, a lot of the channels are, um, just people going, hey, does anyone know someone, so-and-so here? Or, guys, just so you know, this person's just left because they're doing this or that. Or It's just constant intelligence getting sort of flying around.

Interesting. And just going from that intelligence piece, um, uh, Josh, because I'm guessing that's the thing that probably moves the needle initially. Obviously referrals, as you say, is a kind of a longer-term process of building relationships. But so, so you have that intelligence. That next stage, I'm guessing there's probably multiple different ways to approach clients. But what's— is it speccing candidates in? Like, what's the best way once you've got that intelligence? What's the next step for your top billers, do you think?

Yeah, I don't think there's like one particular way because it depends on the recruiter and it depends on the situation. So, um, yes, we spec candidates in, of course, um, and we're very transparent. So we'll absolutely get the candidates, um, uh, permission. Hey, I've got someone I know, uh, is hiring. Do you know this company? And he or she might say no. Do you mind if I just share your profile with them? Because we'll see if we can get you a conversation set up. And we don't really talk about interviews, we talk about conversations, and we talk about, hey, let's just have an open discussion. I don't know where it's going to go because a lot of our candidates are not looking. They're like totally passive.

Um, interesting.

So we could then spec in, but again, we send the original CV or resume and we say, hey, look, this candidate has given us permission, they look suitable because I've heard that you're looking. So we do not share or send any kind of anonymized profiles because again, that goes back to the transactional recruiter chasing vacancies. Um, and look, if that cut— and then when people do join us and they're like, whoa, but what if that client then takes the candidate? And then you go, well, the market's so small, if they do that, that's going to kill their reputation and they'll never be able to work at Trident. So not in an arrogant way, but it's just, you want to screw us over for one fee, then you'll never get to work with us again. And people will know about that because it's such a small world. Yeah. And I'll see you at a conference as well. And yeah, and you're a bellend. But so, and then funnily enough, and to be fair, I think we've had it once and it was an accident. The client was like, look, my bad, I'm sorry, blah, blah, blah. And we got a fee out of it even though we didn't ask. We just said, hey, do you remember we made the connection? So, yeah, we do speccing, sorry, is the answer to that question. And then sometimes we do pick up the phone and call them, but it's not a KPI. It's probably what I'm trying to get across. We send them a note, we send them a message, we send them— we do a ton of events. So Lottie in our marketing team is great and she puts on a load of events. We got one tonight actually for all of kind of chief execs and founders for cyber companies. And the subject of that is like major red flags to look out for this year if you are a CEO, right? And then you'll have a couple of cyber specialists then around a table having dinner, really low-key, no selling, giving advice. And we're just kind of talking back and forth. So we do a ton of events and we kind of invite them to that. Um, reports, salary guides. We've got a salary guide being released in April, um, so we can share that rather than a CV, um, to add more value. And, um, yeah, interesting.

And out of all— the last BD question for me, uh, I just— it's really interesting for me because I think BD is such an interesting topic with recruiters, and yeah, I feel like it's still a bit of a dark art with some recruitment companies. Um, out of all the methods that you've used, what's been the most successful? Could you look at one and be like, yeah, that is the one that typically gets us the best results?

Yeah, events.

Events, really? Interesting. I wasn't expecting to say that.

Yeah, as in hosting our own events, for sure. Yeah. Wow.

Okay.

Wow. We hosted an event 2 weeks ago which was an intelligence meetup for all intelligence professionals. We had a panel, um, it cost us about £2,000. It's not cheap, um, but it was, hey, come and have a drink, come meet the community. We had about 85 people turn up. Uh, we take 4 of our team, um, and, uh, the what you get off the back. There's no pressure in terms of ROI, but we know full well— again, it comes back to that, are you the market mover that I can put you in the middle of that intelligence meet group and everyone goes, oh my God, it's him, like, and they go, hey, it's you. And then the skill to that is someone goes, hey Josh, how you doing? And I'm like, I don't know who this person is. Um, and, and then it takes a couple of sentences to go, oh shit, it's you. Um, you might have only had a phone call or a WhatsApp trade, or, um, people look different on Teams than they do in person. And, um, so yeah, events is our number one killer.

Um, see what you mean when you say that the, the girl who arranges them, or the, or the lad— so I don't know if it's male or female. Yeah, so that's really interesting. So that, that skill set is basically one of your main drivers for the business, which is fascinating.

Can I just jump in, Ben? Because I need to, uh, jump in from you. With the events, Josh, it's— I think it's really hard to get people to turn up to a physical event.

Like, it's actually—

people think it's easy, but it's very difficult to get someone to, you know, come out of their day. They got wife, kids, whatever, they're busy. To get them— how do you do that? How do you get 80 people to turn up to an event?

Uh, a lot of hard work up front to make sure they— to— so in terms of, uh, we will invite 120, expecting 75 to turn up, right? Okay. We've had disasters. We've had disasters, right, where it's been the train strikes last year were hell for us. We also try and plan the event around a big conference so we know people are in town. Uh, so we're doing after a conference event. Um, that's not new, a lot of recruiters do that and a lot of events companies do that. So you've got the kind of captive audience. Um, and then you make sure the topic is strong enough that people go, wow, like, I need to get there. So what we try and do is invite teams of people. So we go, hey, we speak to the director and go, hey, bring your whole team along. Um, and then, so we've got one coming up where we, uh, partner. So I've got a group called the Waterloo Cyber Club and there's like 700, um, ex-military guys and girls who now work in cybersecurity in the UK. And it's always been an event where there's no talks, there's no selling, it's just go to the bar, we'll pay for it and have a drink. And just like the good old days, right? We have kind of upped the game, if you like, and we partnered with TechVets, which is a kind of not-for-profit military initiative that James Murphy runs it. And the idea is to help more military guys and girls when they are leaving, going to technical jobs or technology-based jobs. Mostly cyber. And so we partnered with them. We're hosting an event in May and we've got a tech platform called Immersive Labs who are gonna basically for free, which is amazing on their behalf, to do a kind of simulation. So what you'll do is you get the whole audience there. We've got about 150 people and you'll have your phone, download the app. And the last one we'd done, I don't know what this next one's about, but the last one we'd done was, it's the Formula 1 at Monaco. And, uh, Lewis Hamilton's car has been hacked. What do you do? And it gives you loads of scenarios. And, um, it's really good, so it's really immersive, um, hence the name Immersive Labs. But it's, um, yeah, it's really cool. So we try and, uh, kind of create it such a pull and such a draw rather than just, um, a meetup.

Love that. That's fascinating. And, and how do you know— sorry, Sam, I'm jumping in this one. No, go ahead, man. In terms of topics, I feel like that's really— so that, that's the driving force. It reminds me of a piece of content, like the topic will either draw in the crowd or that it will just, you know, it will die a slow and painful death. How do you know what topics are going to land and what, what don't? Like, is it just from market knowledge, from knowing, from being in cybersecurity for so long, or do you go out and do research?

Intelligence on the ground, people telling us. Yeah, just it backs— goes back to that, right? So it doesn't always just help us for vacancies and who's going what's going on in the kind of recruitment world, but also the industry and the market. And interestingly, we're in WhatsApp groups as well with like hundreds of cybersecurity people who are constantly talking about like Tesco's just been breached and how did it happen.

Oh wow.

So again, which goes back to our Slack channel as a company, we're constantly putting in like, oh, did you see so-and-so just done that to a healthcare company in America and it cost them $22 million and this is how they done it. And so therefore we should then ideally know the topics and we typically partner with a security company to go, guys, we want to do an event, we'll put people in front of you so you could sell to them if you, if you want to, but what should we be— what should the topic be? So, um, yeah, we haven't always got it right, but, um, having a topic of course will— is a bigger draw than, than just—

that intelligence piece again sounds like it's key. Just getting that information feeds almost everything, which is fascinating. Really interesting. Go ahead, Sam.

No, I'm just— uh, interesting point. The overwhelming like feeling I get get from what you've told me just throughout this whole podcast is that it's the importance of understanding your audience. And Daniel Priestley was on a recent podcast at The Diary of a CEO, and yeah, what he does is he goes on to WhatsApp groups and figures out what people like before he releases a product, just to get their information, understand what they're talking about. And you do exactly the same thing, like you're in— you're constantly surrounded by your audience and understanding what's current, what are they speaking about, what are their pains, what are their problems. I just think that's a, that's a brilliant piece of advice for other people, just to be constantly— and you seem to hammer down that message, which is cool.

Yeah. And it's, um, don't get me wrong, it's not easy to get into those WhatsApp groups, right? They don't want recruiters because they think you're just going to sell to them or pinch other people, or, um, so that's where it comes down to what your relationship's like with these candidates, etc., um, because they are again clients. Everyone's a client, right? Everyone's a candidate, it was a client.

So yeah, I can't believe it, it's 12:55, we've got another madness. Podcast coming up, uh, very soon. But this is so annoying, Josh, because I wanted to go into— there's so much more to talk about.

I know, I could have done this for another half an hour, which is—

we've got so much more. Um, but I think we're gonna have to bring this to an end fairly soon. Uh, Josh, would you, would you mind if we did a round 2 of this in the future? Because I feel like we've got so much to, uh, to continue talking about that, you know, we haven't even scratched the surface of, my feeling is.

Um, yeah, part 2 coming soon.

Part 2, amazing.

But thank you, mate. It's been a pleasure to speak to you, and amazing just to hear your story. And, uh, yeah, thank you for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

Thanks for giving me the platform. Uh, good speaking to you guys, and I'll see you next time.

Cheers, Josh.

Cheers, mate. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.