From Toxic Childhood To $1 Million Dollar Biller (Joe Carbone)

Hello guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Joe Carbone. Joe is a million-dollar biller, but what's interesting about Joe's story is that he didn't get anything handed to him in life. In fact, quite the opposite. Joe's mom had him when she was just a teenager. He never met his biological father, and he grew up dirt poor in a toxic household. Joe had every excuse under the sun to just coast through life and become average. But through his struggles, he's managed to develop a very powerful perspective and mindset that's helped him conquer his demons and achieve success that people dream of. On today's episode, Joe's going to be sharing with us his perspective and mindset that's helped him achieve massive success. He'll be discussing with us how he made the jump from $500K biller to a million, and we're going to be talking about some of the BD strategies that Joe has mastered over the years to become a top Guys, today's episode is going to be awesome. So as usual, grab a cuppa or glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited about this one. And the brilliant thing is you haven't been on many podcasts, and that's something that's very special for me and Sam because we've got basically fresh meat on our podcast, which is something we love. Thank you for joining us.

Yeah, I appreciate it, guys. Looking forward to the conversation.

Awesome. I'm just going to start off with the first question and jump straight into it, Joe, which, if it's okay with you. So what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Yeah, I actually really appreciate this question. I think a toolkit is just what it states, right? It's a set of tools that you use in collaboration with one another to get a job done. So for instance, You wouldn't pull out a hammer to screw in a nail, and you certainly wouldn't pull out a screwdriver to hammer a nail. So I think all of those things are important. Mindset, strategy, software. I mean, there's kind of a laundry list of things that I implemented, that I've utilized in my career, past day, currently, and will continue to do into the future to help me optimize my success and to help me really continue to grow and evolve as a professional, as a human being, as a father, as a husband. As a friend, as a business owner. So there's not one thing, Ben, that I typically would be my go-to or my default, so to speak. I think I kind of use all of those things in collaboration with one another and when needed in any given situation to ensure that I can continue to move forward.

Yeah, that's an interesting answer. We haven't had anything like that before, but we like it when people throw us a curveball, Joe, because it makes us think. Um, but okay, no, that makes perfect sense. If there was— I know you're saying that, you know, you use them all in collaboration with each other, but if there was one thing, because you, you know, you're a million-pound builder, you're at the top of your game, you've probably been through, you know, so many experiences. If there's one thing that you could say has been very, very helpful in your success, could you put it down to one thing, do you think?

Yeah, probably. I think it's your mindset, you know. I think having, having a, a winner's mindset, um, Look, you're going to go through ups and downs in your career. You're going to go through ups and downs in your life. Sometimes the ups and downs are simultaneous and other times they're not, right? You've got a great career and maybe something's going on in your personal life and vice versa. I think really having the mindset to continue to forge forward regardless of the obstacles in front of you, I think that's really for me what has enabled me to go from a junior recruiter kind of 17 years ago to running a contingency desk to running a pretty large business to then starting my own and kind of growing and expanding eastward. And of course we go through trials and tribulations at both sides of the fence personally and professionally. But the one thing that's pulled me through is just the belief in myself, the belief that if I surround myself with the right people, if I just make the right, the next right decision, right? You just have to make one good decision at a time and you pick your head up and you've got a lot of great decisions behind you and you find yourself in a very different place. So I think the mindset for me, at least in my experience, has really gotten me through, uh, you know, the turbulent times, but has also elevated me far, uh, beyond where I think I could have been, you know, when things were going well.

Oh, love that. I find self-belief such an interesting thing. It's like, I feel like the more work you put in And the more, yeah, the more work you put in, the more you build your self-belief. That's for me anyway. Like, the harder I work, the more I see results, the more I have this self-belief. Is that how you developed your self-belief? Is it just sheer work and sheer seeing results, or what was your, um, kind of go-to?

Yeah, I think, you know, the history of my upbringing I think gave me the kind of default of having self-belief. Um, you know, I was born into a single mother Actually, she was a teenager when she had me. I never met my biological father, so they weren't married when I was born, and they had been divorced a couple of years after that. I never met my biological father. So, yeah, I grew up in a toxic household, early days. We didn't have a lot of money. So I think from my perspective, the chips were stacked against me anyway. So it was either like, this is kind of the way it's going to be, and I was going to accept the fact that I was going to live a lifestyle. I was always going to have these challenges and hurdles. Or I was going to elevate above them and I was just going to say, I'm going to do it anyway. So I kind of defaulted to, well, yeah, of course there's going to be hurdles and challenges and it's going to be difficult, or people are going to tell you no and you're going to be rejected. People will betray you along the way, but that's going to be that way if you don't do anything anyway. So why not just elevate above that and do it? And when those problems arise, face them head on. So for me, kind of going from, you know, living in a small town in Rhode Island to, to moving to New York City and living in the Bronx on the floor of my best friend's apartment, working full-time, going to school full-time, you know, getting out into the world, selling insurance to, you know, busy professionals and then getting into recruitment. I never thought, well, how could I possibly do this? I thought, well, of course I could do this. You know, look at the shit that I had gone through, you know, growing up in my That was the tough stuff. This is actually a privilege to have these challenges. So if you think about the challenges and hurdles that you have as a privilege and that you get the opportunity to overcome them, what a great place you put yourself in. So it goes back to your first question, Ben, what is the tool and toolkit? And I think it comes down to mindset. And then Sam's here when it becomes more of a self-belief system that you're always going to be okay.

I find that absolutely fascinating. Sorry to interrupt me, just like— sure, like other people with your, uh, with that background, you know, it sounds like you had a bit of a tough upbringing. Other people would have let that affect their self-belief, but for you it did the opposite. You were like, oh, I've already been through that stuff and actually this is a privilege and I believe in myself. I just, I find that fascinating how you took that up, that, um, you had the opportunity to do that and you just— and the way you think about that, I just think it's quite unique and not many people think like that. But you obviously used it.

So I know I have to say, you know, I'm 44 years old, right?

So, you know, I thought you were a lot younger than that, Joe. So you look good.

Yeah, you look good.

We don't have to say that. So we're saying I appreciate that.

No, no, no, that's cool. I appreciate that. Look, I've made a lot of mistakes personally and professionally. And I think, you know, when you kind of can play Monday night quarterback with your life, your career, what have you, you know, you can kind of look at the points in time which you were like, you know, I kind of just went for it, you know, and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. And some of the decisions I made weren't the best ones at that time and others were. But, you know, I have a lot of mistakes in my past which we won't get into that have formed who I am today and that have shaped the mindset that I have today. So I think, you know, one thing that people have to think about, and I talk a lot about this to just recruitment entrepreneurs, I talk about this to recruitment operators, recruitment consultants, you have to believe that you can overcome these obstacles, you know, that are presented to you in a way that is authentic and in a way that gives you the ability to be on the side of your client, on the side of your candidate as a trusted partner and advisor. And that starts and stops with knowing who you are, right? Believing in kind of the journey and path that you've gone through to get to this point in time. And then being vulnerable enough to display that to the people that they're doing business with. Because recruitment is such an intimate business, right? This is not a widget business. We're not pushing a SaaS product. We're not pushing, you know, a material or what have you. We're pushing, you know, the promise in which we'll be able to search and then select for the right candidate for that person's business to then be successful. Right? So the relationship It's always a 3-person triangle of a relationship. You've got to be able to manage all parts and all parties at all times and facilitate the activity that allows these 2 people to get to know each other and understand each other's kind of competencies, cultural set, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, so that they can do a deal and work together so that they can create value for that company on a go-forward basis. So like that's intimate, right? Like if you're a recruiter, you know that you're playing therapy a lot of times to both the client and your candidate, right? There's a kind of talk track in their mindsets that you're kind of talking them through and you're helping guide them through a process. So if you don't know who you are and you don't reflect back on the stuff that you've been through, you know, the good and bad to figure out who you are today, it's very difficult to connect with people. Yeah, it's very difficult to find that authentic relationship so that you can then drive an outcome because people just don't trust you. They think that you're after a commission or a placement or, you know, so you have to get past that. And I may be rambling here, but I truly believe that the essence of, you know, being a big biller, whether you're billing half a million or a million bucks or more, it starts and stops with, you know, knowing yourself and then being vulnerable enough to, allow people into who you are and then, you know, let the chips fall where they may.

Such a great response. And again, we haven't had someone vocalize it in that way. Yeah, Joe. So that's really interesting. I'm going to go into question 2 because I find this fascinating and I feel like a lot of top billers have learned some of their foundational skills in like the first or second companies they've worked at. You worked at Michael Page, which has obviously got a fantastic reputation. You were even there. You were a consistent $500,000 to $600,000 biller. I'm sure you learn a thing or two working at Michael Page. Maybe you could share with us what were the biggest lessons that you learned working at Michael Page, do you think?

Look, Michael Page gave me the life that I have, right? So the 8 years that I'd spent there and the things that I learned there, I took with me and I continue to take with me the good and the bad, right? So first and foremost, when I joined Michael Page, I was, you know, 27 years old. So in the eyes of the contingent recruiter, I was probably older than most. I had already had a 5-year career. I was journeying into the recruitment industry, new, fresh, excited, had some client experience. I was coming in, you know, with a little bit of a fresh lens on how to kind of do things. And I learned very quickly that I was really bad at recruiting. You know, what I had thought in servicing clients in my previous career just didn't translate well. I think the intention was there, right, of building relationships and working with clients, but I had to relearn a lot of things. So what I did to get to the point in which I was a consistent biller was to surround myself with the big billers. And that just meant being kind of annoying, right? And picking out the guys in the lead table that were kind of 1, 2, 3, and 4 and saying, hey, can I spend some time with you? I'd love to learn how you plan your day, right? What do you think about when you're going into your quarter or into your month or into your week? What actually do you do tactically that allows you to have the edge and what kind of habits that you've installed, kind of instilled in those plans to give you the opportunity to consistently deliver for your clients and ultimately deliver for the company. So I think from my standpoint, it took me probably 3 years to really learn the craft down pat, right? The business development, side of the business and what you're going out and you're, you know, you're talking to clients and you're building credibility and you're able to kind of bring those clients, you know, into the fold and then really building a marketplace of candidates within a niche that, you know, you become famous, right? And those candidates know you as the, the person that can help them in their career journey. So, you know, the time spent, you know, with candidates, understanding the marketplace, really getting to know them, Spending time with them, dinners, lunches, having cocktails, whatever it might be, getting to know their families. And I had a list of people that I would kind of rotate in and out of, off and on my list to get to know, because ultimately those are the folks that were going to bring me into their new companies or bring me along with them when they get hired. Or if I was the person moving them, obviously they'd bring me into that new organization. So That for me was a big lesson of, you know, surrounding yourself with people that are doing the things that you want to do, right? Kind of stealing a bit of their tips and tricks and then making it your own and then identifying the areas where you can be successful and going all in. I think a lot of times in contingent recruitment, at least from my experience, most of the recruiters, they don't have kind of force blinders on. And kind of their peripheral vision kind of clouds what's in front of them. So I think really just focusing on, okay, let's reverse engineer this process. If I want to build 5 and really being open to the fact that you need to dig the foundation, which is 10, 12, 15 feet down before you can build up. Because if you don't have a foundation, right, which is, you know, Building a plan, understanding the key metrics within inside of that plan, you know, going out to market and testing that plan, talking to clients, talking to candidates, really understanding the dynamics of the market, past, present, and what potentially could be a future trend. And then going out and executing that plan. You know, you might catch a hot desk, you might catch a hot trend, you might catch a hot market, and you know, that's fine, right? You can kind of, we all can make money in a good market. But when things change and the tides change, you might find yourself starting over again because you didn't back, you didn't grow your foundation deep enough or you didn't dig your foundation deep enough. So, you know, I think, you know, be surrounding yourself with people to back to your question, really getting involved in the intricacies of the marketplace, both on the candidate side and the client side, building a process, executing that process, iterating after execution. Those are some of the things that I think I learned from being at Michael Page for 8 years. And then just being ruthlessly competitive, right? And looking around and say, actually, none of you guys are going to compete with me, right? I'm just going to go out and I'm going to do exactly what I know how to do. I'm going to execute perfectly and I'm going to rise above the rest. And in that, you know, trying to find some likability, right? Both internally and externally, right? I think recruitment consultants need to have a little bit of an X factor, right? People have to want to take your call. They have to want to reply to your email or inbound. They have to want to refer you to their peers. If you don't have that, if you don't have, you know, the attention, if you're not showing up when you say you're going to show up, if you're not delivering what you say you're going to deliver, all the things that kind of we talk about, if that's not who you are, you certainly won't find success in one of the hardest industries to find success in, in my opinion.

Love that, Joe. I want to go back to that point where you were at Michael Page. You started surrounding yourself with top billers and then you started asking them, hey, what do you do on your day? You know, what's your day plan? What are some of the habits you're doing? What were some of the habits that you stole and started implementing for yourself that you found really valuable? Joe, what were the things that you were seeing that they were doing?

I think, you know, it, it was really about being process-driven, right? It was having a process and sticking to the process. So, you know, I know these are kind of macro themes, right? We talk about process, we talk about discipline, right? But if you look at the top athletes in the world, if you look at the top businessmen and women in the world, top recruiters in the world, you know, the, the thread across all of them are they're extremely process driven, right? And they're always auditing their process and they're always going back and increasing their efficiency of their process, right? So first and foremost, do you have a process? Yes. Okay. Is it the most efficient process? I don't know. Well, you gotta test that process. So continuing to test and audit that process and improving that process, I think is, you know, really, really important. And then discipline, right? So it's doing the things over and over and over again every day, the small things for a long period of time without expecting this massive increase in a result, right? And I think recruiters, they think if they do a couple of these things here and there that, you know, all of a sudden they're a big biller. Actually, it's the very small things that you're gonna do every single day whether it be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, they all might be different things in each day because you've optimized your process. And it might be 3 or 4 years of running that process and optimizing that process, and then you become a top biller. And that was my experience, right? Is figuring out what worked for me, putting on the horse blinders, running that process, iterating that process, testing that process, and then after a certain period of time, getting the return on that investment. So I would think, Sam, not to get too granular, just those two concepts alone, being process-driven, being disciplined, if you can combine those two and you can do it over a long period of time, I think you should find success in any marketplace.

Love that, Joe. Love some great response. Um, awesome. So I'm gonna jump on to the next question, and I find this interesting because contingent versus retain, this debate and this kind of idea, it's like it— if me and Sam do a post about it, it absolutely, you know, brings people into a— not an argument, but a debate, a big debate. And yeah, sure, you know, we know a lot of contingent recruiters, you know, a lot of retain recruiters. You interestingly started off as contingent And now you're 100% retained.

Yes.

Your average fee is well over 6 figures, so you've made this big leap, I think, in terms of where you started. You think some people never get to that stage? And I think a lot of recruiters just stay in contingent, and because maybe they're happy with it, and other people swear by retain. But I guess what I'm interested in, um, Joe, what was the pivotal moment that you changed, and how did you make that transition, do you think?

Well, I have to, this is going to be great for people that listen to your podcast and have this debate. I think it's a healthy debate, right? It's like, who's the GOAT? Is it LeBron James or is it Michael Jordan? Right? I think, yeah, this will be a conversation that will last the test of time. My philosophy, guys, is contingent and retain is a payment model. It's not a talent strategy. He just argument out of it. Yeah. Do you want to get paid down the road or do you want to get paid now and along the way? And that's it. It's a mechanism for payment. It's not a talent strategy. So that's my answer. Now, if you want to dive into actually the concept of contingency recruitment and retain recruitment, I can tell you this, contingency recruitment gives certain people the opportunity to manage 5, 10, 15 deals at any given time. It gives them the autonomy to bounce in and out of marketplaces. It gives them the chance to flex their kind of muscles with respect to marketing, business development, talent attraction, negotiation, closing, right? Kind of the full scope of what a contingent recruiter will do. But it limits their ability, in my opinion, to get sticky with a client, right? Because the client looks at you as a means to an end, right? We have a need, you're gonna fulfill that need, go fulfill that need. And they don't necessarily give you the opportunity to bring in other aspects of what actual recruitment consulting can provide. Now, in contingency, can you provide those things? Of course you can. And you try to bring those things into the conversation to change the payment mechanism from contingency to retained, right? Because that's really the game. It's not, I'm a contingent recruiter, it's I get paid on contingency, but I'm still doing the recruiter job, right? So the difference is when actually do you get the reward? So it's a mindset that it goes back to your first question is what's the toolkit that you lean on? Well, it's the mindset. Well, is my time worth you paying me after I do the job, or is my time worth paying me now and then as I do the job along the way? And it's really up to you and how you decide, you know, one, which clients you want to work with and what they're open to considering from a contingency or a team perspective. And then it's up to you to try to make that pivot, right? And the pivot comes when you change the mindset of saying, well, I'm just not going to give you my time for free anymore. I'm going to I'm going to ask you to pay for my time. And that means that you can't deliver the same service that you delivered for free as you do asking for payment upfront. So something has to change, right? So that could be, you know, at Eastward, we provide loss leaders in the forms of research reports, white papers, human capital data and analytics reports. We help our clients at the selection process, right? So we build scorecards for each process, you know, both based on competency and cultural scorecard rating. We can bring in third parties that we have strategic relationships with to help with that process. So there's a lot of things outside of, hey, I have an open rec, you're one of 3 recruiters, now go get me the candidate that You know, you candidate and hopefully it is your candidate and if it is, we'll pay you versus, hey, I have a need. I like to understand the dynamics of the market, right? How many CFOs are in the market? What's the attrition rate? What's the competitor analysis? What's the compensation analysis? I like to understand, you know, how many other companies in that area are recruiting for the same role, what the transaction rate looks like for CFOs in that space, wherever that might be. right? And then being able to, to advise the client, well, okay, based upon that data, here are your options, right? And collaborating with the client to get to the right outcome, not the fastest outcome. And I think contingency is built for speed. There's a lot of broken things inside of the contingent world. Of course there are, I think you could agree on that. And not to say there isn't in retained, but it's more of a collaboration. Between you and the client. You're not thinking about the guy across the street that's also going to backdoor the process that you're building with their client to then miss out on an opportunity to get a fee for your service. And that's really the difference when it comes to the kind of the mechanics of contingency versus retained is the time spent, right? And all of the other value adds that you bring into that process. Now, Look, contingency recruiters will argue they do all those things as well, and if they do, then they shouldn't be giving it away for free. So shame on them. Yeah, that's a them problem, not a client problem. You need to shift the mindset to say, hey, let's be brave and go upstream and find clients that'll pay us. Or they need to look in the mirror and say, actually, are we giving the clients more than what they're asking for in that they just want resumes? They just want a place where they don't want to deal with the end financing through a process. So I think, you know, there's a, there's a real struggle there. But if I back out of that statement, I say, look, contingencies are pay later, retainers are pay now. And throughout a process, if you look at it in simplistic forms, you can build how you want to get into those markets and be successful in both of them, quite frankly.

Oh, love that, Joe. I'm, I'm always interested in jumps that billers make. So you were like, you were hitting £500,000, £600,000 in Michael Page, your million-pound biller now. I'm always interested in like how some— sometimes it's a very slow process and happens over time.

Sure.

And it's like little incremental things. For other billers, it's like they can pinpoint 2 or 3 areas where, you know, I changed this and then my billings went up. Yeah. Is there anything that you remember doing going from a £500,000 to £600,000 biller to a million biller that Kind of following on from what you said.

Yeah. Well, in the most simplistic form, Sam, you focus on people that are making more money, right? And you focus on deals that have a higher output of fee value. So the last page, I might have to, you know, I had to do what, 40, 50 deals in a year. To get to $500 grand, you can do the math on that. You know, at Eastward, I've got to originate a handful to get to a million. You know, I think I average maybe $1.2, $1.3 million over the last 4 or 5 years from origination of search work on my own. So, you know, that's really the difference is just, you know, move into a market that's going to pay you.

It's really interesting. And how did you find that market out of interest? Was that just exploring? Was it just, you know, how did you fall into that market?

Yeah. So, you know, at Page, I had the opportunity to move around quite a bit. You know, I kind of was the fixer, if you will. You know, I started building a practice early days in internal audit and operational risk. I then moved on to a failing practice in back office and middle office investment banking. That was, it was in the red and I helped resuscitate that business into the black. And then I was asked to build our technology practice and management consulting. Working with some of the large consulting firms and building out, you know, our technology practice, which we've never had before in the past. So my ability to be flexible across different sectors, across different functions, allowed me to go into a market that really I was unknown in early days and make that pivotal change. So, you know, when Eastdor was established, we were doing a lot of the work that we had done previous with management consulting firms, Office of the CFO, technology strategy, M&A. Mostly private equity backed. And we hit our gear when the market started to change quite a bit and COVID came around. Well, we had one particular client, which I'll leave unnamed, that did a lot of distress advisory, right? So COVID brought a ton of distress and we happened to be one of the only search firms at that time who specialized in that space. So we put all the chips in the middle of the table at that moment. And worked with this client. I think we did 7 or 8 deals inside of the first kind of 6 months of COVID And then we just built a reputation in that marketplace and expanded from there. So we were maybe lucky in that we were kind of right place, right time. Maybe we had a bit of a little bit of a crystal ball. I don't know. I don't think that's the case, but We certainly saw there was an opportunity there, leaned into that opportunity. And then from there, because we had a track record, we're able to expand. And now we're one of, if not the kind of preeminent routine executive search firms in the distressed space for middle market boutique advisory firms. And from there, we just kind of built adjacent capabilities in office of the CFO, M&A, valuations, We were able to then jump over to private equity proper and work with PE firms and their portfolio companies to help them, you know, switching out management teams, CFOs, CEOs, COOs, CIOs, CTOs, building capabilities for all those folks. So it's just been an opportunity. It's been, you know, really the recognition of that opportunity and then going back to mindset, guys, and saying, you know what, this window is open. And it might not be open much longer. So let's capitalize and move into that space and, you know, just do a great job and differentiate ourselves. And, you know, we've done, we punch well above our weight, right? So we've done a fantastic job. I mean, I think it's about the people of the firm. You know, folks have decided that the journey at Eastward was worth coming to join and that really believing at what we're trying to build here. So, You know, we've turned to earlier in the point, like making the next best decision and then having a bunch of good decisions kind of lined up behind you. And that's kind of how I reflect on it. So hopefully that answered your question. I might have went off on a tangent.

No, it does. It does. You kind of expanded upon that. But from what you said, the biggest difference in Billings was choosing a market, specializing in a market, of course, but choosing a better market that pays better. And that you can specialize in as well. So that's— and that was, as you said, one of the biggest things to your billings, that from $500,000 to $1 million.

Yeah. I just don't understand if you're in a market and your average fee is $30,000, why would you stay in that market? And I mean, there's how many recruitment businesses in the US? Why wouldn't you just decide to go into a market that's lucrative?

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's like comes down to the human condition, which is like fear and what they're used to. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I'm used to this, so why not? But you're right, you know, if you step outside your comfort zone, in most cases, you know, eventually you'll find the, find the gold, so to speak.

Um, well, those people won't be on your podcast then, unfortunately for them. You know, you'll never, you'll never get the answer, Sam. Yeah, that's actually really good.

I'd love to go on to the business development side of things because that, that is probably one of the most popular topics. I'm glad that we've gone into different topics in this podcast. It's been fascinating. So when we spoke the pre-call, there's kind of 4 areas, Joe, that you said you get most of your business sponsoring niche groups, which is really interesting, giving value via reports and white papers. Relationships with PR professionals and referrals. Um, which one of those four could you say that— which one of those four have been the most effective over the last 5 to 10 years, or have they all been equally as effective, do you think?

Uh, I think every recruitment operator or recruitment consultant, however you want to kind of term us, has different seasons of their career, right? So If you're a recruitment consultant early in your career, the likelihood is that you're not going to have a PR team to push out white papers or podcasts that you're sitting on. So I think there's got to be a demonstration along the business development cycle that you're competent. And that starts with, okay, how do I get my name in front of the most people? And then how do I show my competency? And then how do I show that I add value? And is that through cold calling? I don't know. Is that through cold emailing potentially? But again, I don't know if that's the effective, most effective way. I tend to think of business development and expanding and contracting time, which is a really interesting topic that I've written about because I don't do much video. But so when you contract time in a business development setting, Ultimately, what you're doing is you're saying, how can I get the largest return on my investment in the smallest amount of time? Right? So we talk about sponsoring or sponsoring niche groups or going to networking events, right? So eStore sponsors a lot of niche groups, really kind of high-end associations that are well known in the industries that we serve. And not only do we sponsor, we go to those networking events. And we're seen at those networking events and they're annual events. And then there are local events throughout the year in different cities that we attend. And when you do that, you know, if you prepare properly, right, in a 3-day period, our consultants average 30 meetings in 3 days. So that's 10 meetings a day times 3 consultants, right? You do the math on that. How long would it take you to get 100+ meetings cold calling, cold emailing, getting referrals even, right? It would be impossible. It would take you a year more to get those kind of, that kind of output. So when you can track time, that just means, okay, well we're going to a place in which we have a captive audience where, you know, they know us, we have track record, they want to talk to us because we're an expert in our field and we've demonstrated that through, you know, through white papers, through panels, through, placement announcements, right? All the things that, that we do. So that's been a really big accelerator for us, right? We partner with 4 or 5 different niche and niche associations in the industries that we serve. So that's been big, right? The ROI on that is massive. We give away a ton of value in terms of industry reports. So Eastward publishes quarterly annual reports for the industries that we serve and we give them away. You can download them on our website. Our team entirely kind of aggregates that data, sources it, aggregates it, structures it, and then we release that to the public. And then of course we use that in conversations we have with hiring authority, mostly CEOs and operating partners and things of that nature. And really it's, you know, we talk thematically about what's going on in the industry from a talent perspective. And then also thematically, what's going on from an economics, macroeconomics perspective, that, that and how that affects the talent landscape. And we can intertwine those conversations because we've done the research and we're having those conversations day in and day out. So giving away that value, you know, allows us to get the incoming conversations to clients who are looking to us to say, okay, we have a situation. How do you think about this? What would you do? Do you have the data to help support decisions that you would make. We do have relationships with a couple people about some of those white papers and reports, and that could be an announcement. You know, we recently acquired a business out of Canada, Preston Associates. It was a really great acquisition for us, and our PR team took the press release and pushed it out to several really niche publications, which had they've been picked up. So a lot of folks in our industry are saying, okay, they recognize Eastward's name, they see the growth story, they, they knew Preston Associates, they see that's a 1 1 3 opportunity for us and they want to hear more about it. Referrals is a big one for us. So again, you know, 17 years in recruitment, running Eastward for 9 years now, being really well networked in the industry that we serve and my partners too. This isn't a one-man band. You know, we've got, consultants in 4 countries. We've got consultants across 5 states in the US and they all have their own relationships, right? So there's a multiplier effect of building good relationships across the business. And those folks refer us often into their own companies, but often to other companies that are looking to have conversations about, you know, their talent strategy. And we get brought in very early into these conversations. This isn't, hey, we want to hire someone tomorrow. It's, we're thinking about hiring someone in the next 30, 60, 90 days. We'd like you to be our partner in that journey to hire, you know, and then we kind of build out, you know, our kind of methodology and our toolkit to help them think about the things that are important to them. And that, you know, really is centered around human capital data analytics. It's centered around, you know, cultural set of the organization, what they're looking to achieve with this hire, depending on the type of company. So there's a lot of dialogue that goes on well before any hire is made. And then any new company that we're referring to, you know, depending on, again, the situation, there could be some diligence involved. You know, go, we, we write case studies for every search we complete. So it's, you know, the introduction of case studies based on sectors and functions alike so they can understand the kind of competencies and skills that we have in that marketplace. And then again, we always rely on the data. The data doesn't lie. So that's kind of our default when working with new clients, is showing them the process and how to use data to get from inception to completion.

And love that. But I've got like 100 questions from— I said so much, which was so interesting. Well, I'd love to, if Sam is okay with you, and we're going to jump in with one question. I've— all of that— there were so many fascinating things in there, but One thing in particular I found really interesting, just based off the fact that not many people talk about it and the just sheer ROI, is sponsoring niche groups. That's really fascinating to me. What I'm interested in, Joe, if you wouldn't mind sharing, and feel free to go as granular or as high level as you want, but I'm just curious. You've obviously found these niche groups that are relevant to your market. You sponsored them and you get roughly 10 meetings per consultant. How do you initiate that meeting? Is it just as simple as saying, hey, you know, sending them a message after the event? Is it warming them up for like weeks before the event and then sending them a message? How do you do that? What's the best way to initiate that conversation once you sponsored the event, do you think?

I'm trying to think back early days when we sponsored because now I've got all of the CEOs' cell phone numbers in my phone. So I'm just— I'll see you. I'll see you at the annual event in Las Vegas. We should grab dinner.

Cool. Okay. Well, that's interesting. So it shows that you've obviously built a really good relationship with a lot of these people in your space then, right? From—

I'll tell you right now, show me a top biller in recruitment and I'll, or show me a top biller's cell phone, right? And if they've got all their clients' cell phone numbers, they're a top biller. If you don't, if you're a recruiter and you don't have your hiring manager's cell phone numbers in your phone, It's not, you're not doing it. You might think you are and maybe you're on your way. Sure. Of course, this is a journey. It's a long game. But if you're not building those relationships where you're texting your clients at Christmas, on their birthdays, right? If you don't know they're having hip replacement surgery or they're getting ready to get institutional papo for the first time and you're excited for them, like, there's something to be said when you remove a business transaction, what's left are two human beings or a group of humans. If you can't find that intersection of commonality or of, of, of where a relationship starts and stops, you're just as good as the transaction. And you know, at the end of the day, recruitment unfortunately is a commodity. So you've got to find ways to have staying power. So I would say, look, if you're getting into kind of sponsoring niche events, right? I would think that you should probably know the players in that event before you invest any real dollars because it's an expensive investment, right? We're not talking a couple thousand bucks, we're talking tens of thousands of dollars. So I would say build the relationships that are meaningful, have success in that market. I think what we haven't talked about is probably the success factor, but you can have a lot of great relationships, but if you're not successful, The likelihood is that every dollar you invest in a, in a relationship or in a, in a, in a, an event, et cetera, probably is going to be wasted because you just have not been successful. So I think having success first and foremost and figuring out that your identity within that, in that space and, and really taking that identity to the market and connecting with the community of people that are in that market are ultimately going to give you the edge so that when you do invest in that event or you do invest in that association and become a member of that association, you're saying, we've done all these great things for you. We want to continue to do great things for you. I want to invest real dollars and real time into this association because I believe in it and I believe in the people that are in these associations. And a lot of times I think recruiters just look at the end, which is, oh, I placed this guy and I'm going to get paid. It's, you know, that's not the special stuff. That's the result of the special stuff, which is the people you get to interact with, the people you get to build a relationship with, the people that you get to know. And quite frankly, the fact that they get to know you as well, right? So going back to knowing thyself, having vulnerability, and truly believing that you're bringing something to the table that has value. I think that's equally as important as, you know, the relationship looking the other way. Very interesting.

So I mean, what I got from that was quite a few things, but it's definitely not a strategy to start off with. It's something down the line once you've built a really good reputation in the market and you know who your, your A-players are, or that, you know, your, your star clients are. And it's a really good way to get embedded further into that community. Um, which is really helpful. Sam, I've got a few questions, but I've— I know I've bumped in quite a few times. You go ahead, bro, you go ahead. I'm loving your questions. Um, I would love to, because I remember in the first call I just remembered the word vulnerability quite a few times, and you've mentioned it on this call as well. So I have a feeling that's really important to you. And I have to be honest, Joe, we don't hear that very often. In fact, I don't remember the last person, last recruiter that's mentioned the word vulnerability, really. I'm not sure about you, Sam. So what is it about that? What is it about vulnerability that's important to you? And why do you think you've been using that word throughout the last couple of calls?

You know, vulnerability is part of the human condition, right? So I think that behind closed doors, everyone is vulnerable. And I think if you're unafraid to show that you're not perfect, There are things that you might not know. There are areas of what you need to improve as a human, right? And that could be in your job or in your personal life. I think it makes you a real person, right? And the person on the other side of a deal, right? Or a pitch or what have you sees that, right? And they're like, okay, I'm dealing with somebody who's confident in who they are. I'm dealing with somebody who's unafraid to show their vulnerability at a time in which others might, which could be a superpower, which could be like, hey, listen, let's work together. I'm going to show you how good I am at what I do. And I've got 17 years of a track record to do that. But I'm also a father. I'm also a husband. I'm also a friend. And in kind of the swirl of all those things, you're a human being and human beings are vulnerable, right? They're not perfect. So coming, showing up as a perfectionist is not the way to build a meaningful relationship, right? I like building relationships. I like to get to know people. I like to help people, truly like to help people in their personal life and in their professional life. And anybody that's worked for me in the past, worked with me in the past know that to be the case. So if I don't show my human side and I don't show that I'm vulnerable, how can I expect others to show that they are to me? And so it might not be, guys, on the first call meeting with the CEO of a company. Of course not, right? It might not be on the second or third call, but as you get to know that person and as you build trust, right? Vulnerability can come into play to say, look, you know, I'm building a business. I'm a first-time founder. I'm 9 years into this journey. I want to build something exciting. You, on the other hand, have done it. You're a CEO of a middle market company. You're doing $250 million of revenue, or you're growing a consulting business. I'd love to learn from you. I'd love to understand how you overcame obstacles inside of your organization with a specific client group. Would you be open to sharing those with me? That in itself is vulnerability. So I'm not talking about vulnerability to the point of losing or being incompetent, right? That's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about vulnerability to the point in which you can say, hey, I admire the work that you've done. I quite frankly look up to the things that you're doing. I'd love to learn from you even though you're gonna hire me to go to market to find the best in class talent, which I will do because quite frankly, I'm the best to do it. But there are other things at play here that you might be able to help me become a better version of myself. And quite frankly, I've had that conversation with CEOs of companies and they're all taken back and they're like, yeah, I actually would love that. That would be fantastic. Now again, it's not on the first call. That'd be weird, right? But it's over time. It's over time. It's different. I think it's a part of the human condition, man. So running away from that, I think, is only going to hinder your success. That's my opinion.

I'm guessing that has helped you develop much more deep relationships with CEOs a lot quicker as well, just by being vulnerable and then them almost being open to telling you about their life and their ups and their downs.

So it's 100%. I mean, you know, At Christmas time, I celebrate Christmas at Christmas time. If you told me 10 years ago I'd have 30 or 40 CEOs text messaging me Merry Christmas, I think you're crazy. But every year I get the text messages that come through. Either I'm texting first or they're texting first. And it's a special place to be, right? Because it's not built on exchange of value, although it is, it's built beyond that. It's okay, have we developed a friendship, even a business friendship, right? In which this person is thinking about you and your business and wondering if you're well and hoping you're well and vice versa. I'm thinking about their business and how I can help their business and also how their family are doing, how their kids are doing and things of that nature. So Recruitment, like I mentioned earlier, guys, it's the most intimate professional services business across the board. And if you think that and truly believe that and you lean into that philosophy, you know, being vulnerable is just part of it. I love that.

Like the image, the sun's shining through and it's on your face, Joe. And I feel like the timing is perfect. I feel like it's like an angel coming in from the window. But, um, we are coming towards the end of the pod, uh, Joe, and I have to say I've really, really enjoyed this. You've been an absolute star, and some of your— all of your answers have been brilliant. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today.

Um, yeah, thanks for the opportunity, guys. It's great, it's a lot of fun.

Awesome. Thank you, Joe. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.