How an 800k Biller Wins New Clients

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Stuart Mitchell. Stuart is the founder of Hampton North. They're a premium US-based cybersecurity search firm. In their first 12 months, Hampton North did $1.6 million, and now they're a team of 5. Stuart himself is an $800K biller, and we're gonna be discussing why Stuart spends 200 days of the year on the road meeting clients face to face. We're going to be talking about the lessons he's learned building a 7-figure recruitment business, and we'll also be discussing why Stuart loves surrounding himself with high performers. As usual, guys, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we?

Stuart, thank you so much for joining us today. Me and Sam are super excited to be speaking to you.

Thanks for having me, looking forward to this.

Awesome. So we'll just start off with the very first question, as we do every guest. Um, what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Yeah, so I've stewed this one for a little while because I did my homework and listened to a few, uh, a few other podcasts, and I, I think I've come up with, with my answer, and it's, it's a mindset. Um, and it's not my mindset, it's a mindset that's well known in the business world. But something I've always preached in recruitment in my career, which is the infinite mindset, which is a very famous one by Simon Sinek, which is I anticipate that I will run into everyone I speak to again. And I think that changes the landscape of how you approach situations, you approach people, you approach relationships, and it will serve you well. And I look at, you know, I look at a lot of people in our industry who are very short-term minded, want to get a deal over the line, even the way they set up their business of like, hey, I want to sell by X date. Like, I don't have that. I have a view of like, okay, well, if I treat people accordingly and with the right frame of mind that, hey, I may need a favor from this person again, they may need me in future. Changes the whole spectrum of your, like, the way that you communicate with them. And I think that's served me well. And I think, you know, particularly if you're going to dive down into a niche and stay in one single space, those relationships start to snowball. And this job just becomes so much easier if you treat people right, use some wonderful tools, you have some other wonderful mindsets. But I think that's the one that's probably served me best over my career.

Lovely, interesting. I think that is the common theme between all the top billers, is they just have a completely different mindset when it comes to building relationships. And it is, as you say, Stuart, just very long-term, um, which is really interesting. So I know that even well before, well before social media, Stuart, you were a million-dollar biller, which is really impressive. So I'm now trying to figure out what was your best business development strategy over the years? What's been the most consistent strategy for you to win new business? 'cause I know you've been not just a million-dollar biller, but you were a consistent top biller for many years.

Yeah, so I think I've always lent into my strengths. And I think first things first, and people maybe forget about this, but I joined a really good business who already had A, a good reputation, and B, people were blazing the trail of high performance before. So people, I think particularly earlier in their career, you know, you have 2 or 3 decent years and you think like, okay, well, I'm amazing. But being around people who are better than you and with a company who has a good reputation certainly helped. But what I wanted to double down on is, is the thing that we go back to, which is the relationships piece. And I was never— I think there's this stereotype that like if you're this big biller, that you're this beast that just smashes the phone and, you know, is like, you know, like, I don't know, I have this like optics of like in a suit. I've never been that guy, right? I've never been a huge cold caller. I've never been top of the dials. Like, that's never been my methodology to the point where I was a top performer at my previous company to even where I was before. I won President's Club, I was the highest performer in the US, and the CEO called me up and he's like, hey, you're lazy. If you just made more dials, you could do more. I was like, I don't think you're getting it. I think there's like maybe, you know, there's different ways to do it. And I think that's one of the wonderful things about recruitment is there's not a prescription way to do things. And And my, you know, my approach was always how can I just get in front of somebody? Like, and that was always my way in of my business development strategy was honestly, let's give them enough interest of maybe reverse headhunting or telling them about opportunities or sharing some content or something that could be useful for them that could just get me 5 minutes in front of this person. And I have this story of a CEO who's now become a friend of mine. in, in Los Angeles when I moved there in 2018. And I was, I was trying to build out a desk there and I was like, look, give me 10 minutes, I'll come to you, let me buy you a coffee. Um, and I can tell you exactly who I am and, and, and how I can make your life better. And then, and then I, I lead on a tangent of questions of where their business is, how they're struggling, what, what they're not achieving. But my business development strategy was never like, ram product down their throat. It was never, um, you know, how can I make more phone calls? It was, what do I need to do to get in front of this person? Because my, my superpower was always, once I'm in front of someone, I can unpick problems. Um, and that's the best time to sell, right? And, you know, a lot of placements I've made over the years, the roles didn't even exist. It was, okay, that— where's the problem? Almost consultative selling. So that was always my business development strategy. But that doesn't matter if you can't execute, right? So I've always been, you know, a business development strategy is wonderful, but if you can't execute— so I've always been very in tune with my market. I, you know, when I am business developing, I can tell you exactly what a 5-year security engineer in Seattle who works for a tech company should cost. So I've always had that power of when asked the questions, I have the answers. Again, going back to the overall stereotype of our industry, and I've sat on phone calls where people try and fluff their way through those answers. I find it so painful. Um, so yeah, I think going back to the original question, getting in front of people and then being armed with all of the, all of the answers for the questions that your clients should be asking have always been really, really useful for me.

Interesting. I've got the feeling that once you're on the phone, it's almost a done deal, Stuart. But I know so many people struggle with that initial trigger. If you were to teach a new recruit was to come into your business and they're like, Stuart, but what do I do? Is there anything like tangible that you can give in terms of how you would get in front of them, how you would convince them that you're worth the time, if that makes sense?

Yeah, yeah. I think that this is always the biggest challenge, is give them a reason to talk to you, right? So I'm always looking at my team, I'm like, what conferences are you going to? Like, what events are you hosting? Like, what podcasts are you listening to? Like, what are you, what are you doing that can give someone get 30 seconds of attention because everyone in our industry is trying to ram product down their throat. Like, hey, I've got this amazing candidate, let's go, perfect candidate, whatever it is. Um, what can you do to get interest? Even to the point of, if I, I, I say to my team, I'm like, go to this conference, could be a rubbish conference, but then you can reach out to 100 people in the network saying, hey, you going? Oh no, I'm not. Okay, well, I would love to grab coffee with you next time. Or, hey, I'm going to be in San Francisco like in 2 months, like, what do you, when should we get together? Because Again, it's the giving yourself a reason to reach out that isn't very selfish because that's what product is, right? And again, like, don't get me wrong, there is a world where sending a world-class candidate to make a business better is not selfish, but it is, right? Like, you're trying to get a deal. Like, let's not be stupid. We're all trying to get a deal done. And even my intentions long term to create friendships and relationships with these people is to further my business. I'm not naive to that. Um, but having something to reach out with, whether it is an unbelievable article they've read, whether it's a meetup, whether it's a controversial take, um, whether it's something they've posted or a podcast they've been on, um, I think it's just about having a nugget to get in. Um, because you're right, like, when we can get in front, our ability to close is second to none, I would like to think. But it's having that little bit that is, you know, the, the tiny reach out that is not so obvious in its method, um, and more so like, hey, I would love you to read this. I love what you just said about, you know, it could be a cybersecurity topic, it could be a human capital topic, whatever it could be. Um, and those are the best reach outs to spark engagement. So every, every week I, when, when doing kickoffs with the team, I'm like, okay, What are you listening to? What event are you going to? What are you hosting? Like, I'll give you an example. Like, we were just at a big event in San Francisco. It's free rein to reach out to everybody. We're hosting an event in Florida next month. Everyone in Florida, it's like, hey, do you want to come to this? Okay, what should we be talking about? And then one of my team is at two very big events in the next month. It's such an easy reason to reach out. Once the dialogue is flowing, the conversation just becomes so much more natural.

That's really interesting.

Sorry, Ben, can I butt in? Because— yeah, sorry, I know, go ahead. What was the— so that's really interesting, Stuart, is I completely get that as having a reason and almost like a trigger in order to speak to the client and, and have an interesting point of conversation. What reason did you find was most successful for you? Was there one that was always getting more conversation started when you put that reason in front of them?

Yeah. So I think the first thing that I used to do is like, how can I serve their career? Right? And this was, you know, there were less, less events. It was, you know, 9, 10 years ago where I think I really started to kick on. It's like, okay, well, I want to be that go-to person when you're looking to make moves, when you're looking to make strategic changes. Like, how can I make your life better? And I think if someone says that to you, right? Like, let me grab a coffee. Like, let me buy you lunch. And find out how to make your life better. Um, okay, like, fine, I'll take the free lunch. And worst case, you suck and I get a free lunch, but is what it is. Um, best case, you know, you find a way of like, okay, well, if I had this opportunity with this company, would you be interested? Okay, where is your journey going? Like, how can I help you? What does your CV look like? So I think that building a relationship where you have best intentions with a very senior network, even if, even if you look at it and you're playing the long game, right? And I think this has been very useful for me, is like, I used to play that kind of like second tier, but almost like stocks, right? I could see these people, I'm like, you're going to run a program in 3 years, you're going to run a program in 5 years. Like, I can see it. Um, I'm like, okay, well, I want to stay super tight to you, even maybe place you once or twice on the way. And if not, like, tell you like, hey, you should probably go work for Facebook for a bit. I don't work with Facebook, but like, you know that from a resume equity perspective, that's going to push you into your next, your next level. So that, that was always my go-to. Again, if you're not powered with the knowledge, it doesn't, doesn't matter. Um, but it was always, okay, what, what can I do for you? Who can I introduce you to? Like, how can I help? Um, and genuinely meaning it versus how can I help, I'd love to put 20 contractors in your team. Like, that, that helps. Um, but I don't think going in with that mindset is, is useful because, you know, they— people can smell it, right? And especially in my industry where cybersecurity, these people are paranoid for a living. Like, they can smell you trying to really Trojan horse it very, very quickly. But if you actually give, give a damn, like people will take care of you long term. And I found that when I launched my brand, it was the people who I'd spent years investing in their success who were early customer adopters, public champions, everything in between. And it made me launching so much easier versus like, hey, I'm, I'm a guy and I'm starting again.

Mm, really interesting.

I know that from our previous call, sure, you said that you spend a whopping— you said 200 days on the road every year. So you're out and about, you are meeting tons of people, which is insane. Um, how do you prioritize?

Like, what—

how do you get that many meetings? Or like, how do you find that much time? Or how do you find the right places to go to? Should I say I'm kind of waffling here, but I'm trying to figure out what you do in those 200 days because I want to kind of get inside your world and see who are you meeting, what are you doing, how are you getting business from those events, if that makes sense.

So I think the, the first thing is there's events that I simply have to be at for optics' sake, right? I did this very deliberate thing of creating a loud persona in my industry, which means there's a lot of things that I have to be at from a face perspective. So, and last week as an example, I was at RSA. It's a big one. I ran, you know, running down the street. I run into a lot of people and, and it's great and it triggers conversations of like, hey, you know, we're actually thinking about setting up We're hiring a new team in Europe. What does your European presence look like? Okay, we just hired a guy in the UK. Like, amazing. So these conversations happen. But I think it's that, and this really took care of me last year when it was a very difficult, like last year was a difficult year. Like a lot of people struggled last year. It's like, hey, well, we're thinking of hiring someone. Cool, you're in Chicago. I'll be there tomorrow. Like, let's talk about this. Let's get lunch. Like, I am not a transactional person. I will get on a flight, I will jump in the car. I'm equidistant. Like if I need to be in New York or Boston this afternoon, I can be. If I need to be in California on Monday, I will be. And I think we got very comfortable behind the laptop, right? We got very comfortable behind Zoom. And because there was a plethora of business in 2021, 2022, we got too comfortable, right? And most of the job that I enjoy is interacting and meeting with new people. And look, is it Is it tiring? Yeah, like last year I was so— I was the most tired I've ever been. That gap between Christmas and New Year, I slept, but that's all I did because it was a tough year. And, you know, am I planning to spend 200 days a year on, on the road this year? Probably not. As the team grows, you know, I want to send, you know, I want to send small armies to go and, and do that work and, and keep going. But last year was very much startup, um, startup mode, but if you can't go, if you don't have the willingness to go and sit down with your customers, look them in the eye and say, hey, like, this is what I want to be doing. This is what I want to be doing, like with you as well as, you know, being present at conferences, you know, attending happy hours of prospects that you want to be doing business with. You know, I went to a golf day yesterday for a business that I would like to be working with, and they invited me along. And it's, you know, does that, you know, is there a chance that I close that company? Probably. Could I have also spent a day managing the team and delivering? Maybe. But it's, you know, going that extra mile. And I think, you know, being stateside, there's a lot of people in the UK who are servicing the United States as a client base. And I don't blame them. The opportunity is bigger and broader if you do it right. But I got to have that. I got to take advantage of the fact that I'm here, right? I got to take advantage of the fact that I can spend time with these customers. Differentiate and I enjoy it, right? And that's where friendships are made, right? You don't— I don't know that I'm really friends with anyone that I've done a load of virtual business with, but the people that I've gone out and seen, I have genuine friendships with a good amount of my clients now. You know, I got some wedding gifts from these people. I, you know, they sent something when my daughter was born and things like that that I think you know, these relationships are going to last into eternity because it's those, those things have evolved. And it's very difficult to do that, um, over the phone, over email. And, and so that's, that's another reason why I do it.

It's really fascinating. I feel like, Stuart, that— I mean, you, like you said, you obviously spend a lot of time trying to meet with your clients face to face, in person, going to networking events. I used to do a lot of networking events. I didn't pick up much business. I don't know if I was shit at it or But is there a process? Because I feel like there are people that could spend a lot of time in networking events and not get what they want from it. You obviously have made it very successful. Have you got a process, or is it just about speaking to as many people as possible?

No, it's not that. And I am not— I'm not that confident. Might come across very confident here, but I'm not that person who can walk into a room and go and say, hey, it's Drew Mitchell, I'm this. Like, I find that very difficult. And I also find that I find those people uncomfortable at times, right? I genuinely find it when people like come up to me with overconfidence. What I will always find at these events is like, okay, can I find— do I have one or two customer champions at said event? And if I gravitate towards them, who did they know that they can introduce me to? Because again, going back to your point, I think once I start a conversation, I'm very comfortable and everything starts to happen very naturally. But I'm not someone who is like, I'll go up to every, every booth, every speaker and say, hey, tell me about your business. I'm desperate to work with you guys. Like, don't get me wrong, if there's a client that I'm laser focused on, there's a big bank in the US and one of the guys came up to me and he was like, hey, Stu, I've seen your stuff on LinkedIn and we can obviously go out in a little bit. And I was like, yeah, I'm trying to work with you guys. I've hit up everyone, like, what the heck is going on? And I'm, I'm tapping all you guys on the shoulder. So there's obviously a, you know, a deliberate focus. Like, let's say, for example, you want to work with American Express and they're hosting an event. You can have a little bit more purpose. But what I've always found really useful is having one or two like crutches that you can immediately go to. And then, you know, hey, you need to meet Jim and you need to meet Sheila and, you know, you need to meet Pradeep. And these people all come together and it's— it becomes a little bit more natural. That has always worked for me. I find it— I'm not super comfortable walking into a room entirely alone, um, and I don't know that I ever will be where I can just kind of bulldoze and become that, you know. And I envy those people. I think it's such a wonderful skill set. Um, but I tend to be a little focused on, okay, who can spread my story better than me? Because that's so much more powerful.

It's really interesting. Cool. That kind of puts my mind at ease because I thought you were one of those guys, true, that could just walk—

wish I was.

But you're still making it work really well. So that's really, that's really fascinating.

And you obviously, it sounds like you have particular clients that you like to work with. Sure. How do you prioritize the best clients? How do you like, when do you, how do you, what's the tick list for like really good clients for your business, do you think?

So I learned, I learned a wonderful saying from one of my old bosses, which is my currency is commitment. And commitment comes in very different ways in terms of it can be financial, it can be time, it can be energy, it can be even just the, the way that they communicate with you. So I think the, the most important thing for me is I have a committed client. I know if, if somebody's committed to me, we'll get there in the end. You know, the journey is very different for very different customers. I will say there's some clients that I've worked with that I can flex, right? And that are wonderful for my pedigree, but they may not be the businesses that I've made the most money out of and had the most success out of. So for me, it's a business who is committed to our partnership. We're not just, okay, well, we'll use those folks because we're stuck. Like, I want people to be excited about working with us. And I use this kind of— I want my business eventually to be like a Bain or a BCG or whatever. It's like, hey, we were We're pumped to bring in Hampton North to fix a problem that we have. So we like those types of customers who know that we'll get it done for them. The second is somebody who takes hiring in cybersecurity seriously. You know, my reputation and Hampton North's reputation is not around pissing off our candidate pools, to be perfectly honest. Like, we're not going to make them jump through 8-stage processes to get an underoffer. Like, I'll happily fire a client if we get to that point. Like, I don't want people messing with my reputation. And I think that's something that's not— I'm sure it's a theme of your high performers, but it is not a theme of the entire industry in that I don't need to work with everybody. And it's, you know, I've been, I've been on client calls of like some of the biggest financial institutions in the world where I'll give very clear feedback that your process is too long, your compensation isn't great, and you don't have a great reputation. And rather than take that feedback, they'll say, hey, well, we don't want to work with you then. That's fine by me because I can't fix those things unless you let me in. And so I really need somebody to let us get under the hood of what's going on. And then, I mean, we have some wonderful stories, we have some wonderful case studies of, you know, placing teams of 20 in 6 weeks and, you know, hiring for some of the biggest executives for some of the biggest tech companies on the planet. But it's all about letting us in. And, you know, if they don't commit to us and they don't give us the access that we need, it's never going to play. Even if they're the coolest company in the world. Like we have a couple of hedge funds that we signed with who pay wonderful packages, you know, one of, you know, potential huge recruitment fees that are very lucrative. They won't let us in. And I say to the team, I'm like, and they're like, wow, well, we could do $100,000, $150,000, $200,000 fee. And I was like, you're going to spin your wheels because they won't let you in and you're going to end up pissing off Your candidate base, um, because you can't get the feedback that you want, you can't get the, you can't get the news that you want, or even when you do get the feedback, it's not the, the granular level of feedback that you and your candidates appreciate. Um, and so for us, it's mostly, it's less so about like having a very specific defined ICP of like, hey, we only work with Series D, they're going to IPO within 24 months. It's more about businesses who give us the access who resonate with our candidate pool and the way that we're going to approach them, um, and that can, you know, can pay, essentially.

Yeah, I love that. I feel like if more recruiters were more strict with the clients they bring on, they would have a happier and easier life. And I love that you have the guts to turn away bigger clientele for the sake of your reputation and just to have an easier and better process. So, Stuart, I love that. Um, I would love to talk about, um, you mentioned you like to be around excellence. Um, what do you look for in other recruiters, uh, to see if they're going to be a good fit for your environment specifically, Stuart?

Yeah, that's a, that's a good question, and I think a lot of it is how they conduct themselves. Um, plus, like, personally, I think there has to be, you know, the way they interact with— like, the way that we interact internally I think spreads a message. But I also, I think the good thing is we've hired from within our own industry, right? So we've hired from the cybersecurity recruiting industry. So I can pick up a phone call and I can say, hey, like, how have you felt these interactions with said person has been? And, you know, the reason a number of my team have joined is like, I was sick of losing to you. Like I was sick of coming up against you as competition. And so I wanted to see what it was about. And so that's something that's super important. And I think something that we're now, you know, we have an expectation where, and we're not quite there. I think last year we were like probably 12% shy. This year we're running about 20% shy. I want a $600,000 a head recruitment business, which is a lot, right? It's really high. I've been there. I've run a team that averaged that, and it was, of course, it was in good times and whatnot. But to me, that is the standard, and that is part of what we're trying to build here. And I use the, use the 300 analogy of if you can't hold your shield to the— and the person, you're risking the reputation of the person next to you. And I won't take that. Now, the, the traits in themselves, like, we don't have a prescription method of doing business. Like, I know some businesses are like, this is our nailed down sales process, right? We send 3, you know, we go through a speccing campaign. I have some people who are wonderful at cold calling, right? I have some people who are masters at speccing. I have some people who are brand, you know, personal branding wizards. There is not a prescription method of how we operate. But there is a prescription method of how we communicate. There is a prescription method of how quickly we turn searches around, how we communicate with our customers. And that's where we are collective. Because, you know, if I— the best biller I've ever met, like $2, $3, $4 million biller, we are so far apart in the way that we approach recruitment, right? And he's, you know, but I couldn't enjoy his job. He's never met a customer. He has— he never spends a minute away from his desk. He doesn't really talk to his teammates, but like so laser-focused. I've never seen a guy like it. And I like him and I respect him and he's very good. But like, if I was— let's, let's say I hired this guy, right? And I was like, hey, you work my way. Stupid, right? What a waste of— what a waste of potential. And I think, you know, it's very different because we hire experienced recruiters who have found their way. I think it's very difficult— different when you run an early career or career changer or grad process where it's like, hey, we do it this way and this is how we get results. I think, I think what I like to see is, okay, find your, find your way. And then if I, if it resonates and it still means that you treat the community with respect, your teammates with respect, clients with respect, and you find a way to get it done, that works. Mm.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Sorry, Ben, go ahead.

No, I'm just saying, what I'm getting from that is there's not one way to do it, but they all have— they've all doubled down on one thing and got exceptionally good at that, and you kind of welcome it, which is really interesting.

Um, yeah, and I look— I look at— I think, like, we have this obsession of people being this, like, perfectly well-rounded recruiter, right? If you go through L&D, and I remember going as a high performer, like, going through L&D and I was like, they were like, Stu, well, you should try this. And I was like, well, I'm not very good at it. Like I've tried it and like I know that it's a blind spot and, you know, you look at some sports players, right? It's like, okay, well, in basketball you've got a 7-foot-4 guy who can't shoot 3-pointers. So he just doesn't shoot 3-pointers, right? Or, you know, I was a cricket player and my dad was like, hey, you're a good batsman, but like don't play the pull shot because you get out. So just don't play it. And, you know, the reality is You don't have to do everything if you can double down on what you're excellent at. Look, does it help to have multiple revenue streams? Like, even if you're, you know, I look at personal branding as an example, right? We have a couple of people who are very new to that, um, and I think that it should be lent into a lot more. I'm not saying that it has to be your, your be-all and end-all, but it makes your life easier in the same way that just because you don't, you know, don't focus on cold calling as a business development strategy doesn't mean that you shouldn't know how to pick up a phone call and just reach out to a client because you've tried everything else and you are desperate to get a hold of these folks. But I don't think you have to be a— I would rather someone was an A-star player in 1 to 2 areas and a C player in 7 or 8 than this, this kind of focus for mediocrity, everything, and just being good enough for everything. That doesn't, that doesn't sit with me.

Yeah, sorry, I get a common theme, uh, from the way you speak through it, and you just openly saying it, is that, you know, you like to be around excellence. People who are mediocre or don't put enough effort in frustrate you a little bit. Have you, have you noticed a common theme between the recruiters that perhaps aren't achieving what they want, what they're doing wrong? Is there like a common thing that you see that recruiters are doing wrong that could be getting them more money, billing more, and just being better recruiters?

So there's a couple of things, right? Like, one is, do you really want to do this job, or are you just doing it because you don't know what else to do? And I think that is probably the root cause of a lot of this, is some people fell into this, some people don't know what their options are. And I look at the people, like I look at the quote unquote underperformers or average people that I've worked with over the years, 95% of them don't do this anymore. Like they've made their own kind of journeys, some very successfully, some not so. But like I think that is a real root cause of some of the people that haven't fared. And then the other thing is I think there's a commitment to doing things for a long period of time versus— I mean, we're in an instant gratification era, right? Like, oh, well, I tried speccing for 2 days and I didn't get any responses. Like, nice. Like, that is not how you get a decent sample size. Um, and so I think there is a— and this is a generational problem, and, and like, I'm part of it as well. Like, you know, we've become exceptionally impatient. I remember it used to be okay to wait 5 days for a new phone to be delivered. And now that concept of like, my goodness, I'm just gonna go get it today, I'd rather pay more and get it today. Um, and so I think that kind of willingness, and I see it in personal branding, is probably a really clear example of, hey, I posted on LinkedIn for a week and now where's my 10 inbound customers? Like, it doesn't work like that. Um, and so that commitment to trusting the process, um, is, is probably the biggest thing that's, that's missing. And then they, they just follow the next shiny light, whether it's, oh, I've got a glimpse of clients. I'm going to spend 2 weeks working for a client who won't even get back to me. Okay, now I'm going to try speccing for 3 days. Now I'm going to do personal branding. And they never do anything because they're always doing something once. They never commit to anything. And that's where you struggle, right? It's, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the consistent people in this industry, like, it's our job never changes. And I say it to people, I'm like, look, it's as long as you're okay with the fact that like agency recruitment, for all the tools, for all the shortcuts or whatever, the job never really changes. And you have to be okay with that. You have to be okay client, you know, client attraction, account management, chasing candidates, following them, qualifying them, and understanding that. I think the best people embrace that, um, you know, with a little bit of wanting to change and improve and coax and get a little bit better in, in, and looking for shortcuts. But the bare bones never, never change. And all the best— I'm sure everyone that comes onto this, this podcast is like, hey, well, we just stick to the fundamentals. We've got tweaks, we've got tricks. But, you know, someone who can't fall in love with the fundamentals and trust the process, they, they don't make it.

Yeah. And just to go on that point, the biggest pillars we've had on this top— this podcast all do the fundamentals really well. Nothing outrageous, nothing like fancy. Just the fundamentals really well consistently for many, many years. And it's a theme that is— it's blown my mind actually how consistent it is with every single builder. It's pretty crazy. What are some of the biggest lessons you've learned as a business owner that you've— maybe the biggest fuck-ups or the biggest lessons that you've learned during your time of running your own business? Just curious.

Yeah. So there's a, there's a couple. I think one that I'm fairly well known for doing is like I bought I basically bought staff on handshake deals and kind of promises that I was gonna get deals done. And so I would say like be very patient with your cash flow. You hear a lot of founders say cash is king. I probably didn't realize that it was king, queen, prince, everything. I thought like, hey, and you know, I didn't really, I never really got under the hood of how a business really operates. I just knew that I had an ability to, look, I have two very good abilities. I'm a good recruiter and I know how to hire good recruiters. Like, so I was like, cool, I'm gonna be fine, right? They'll be fine. Um, and that only gets you so far if you don't understand the business fundamentals. Not to say that I'm not— like, I'm not an intelligent person because I come from a math background. I understand, you know, a fairly decent— you know, I have a decent emphasis on numbers.

Yeah.

Um, but a lot of financials is more around kind of management of cash flow, expectations of customer on-time payments, etc. So I flew a little close to the sun there. Um, and then the second— and look, I think we're running into some, some growing pains a little bit, and I'm very public around this— is like, we, we kind of grew a little bit faster than we expected. Um, and I'm not sure that I really mapped out— all I wanted to do is get excellent recruiters in a room and say, look, let's, let's take this thing to the moon and we'll just see what happens, right? I'm not scaling for exit. I just want to be around other great people. And like make a load of money. We're all going to make a load of money. We're going to have a ton of fun. We do some wonderful offsites. We have, you know, great commission structure, etc. That's not everything to everyone. And I think what I'm now working is like you need to map out a journey for these people. They need to understand where the business is going. They need to understand the role that they're playing within this business, what excellence means within the business other than a nice commission check. And I think I ran too fast with that. And, you know, again, things move when you're in startup mode and things are moving really quickly. The things that you prioritize are very different. And I think this year has allowed me to kind of— again, we've ended up in a good situation cash flow wise now because I'm terrified of that. So I won't fly close to the sun again. But now it's a case of being very deliberate around mapping journeys for these folks, understanding what overperformance looks like. Candidly understanding what underperformance looks like as well, because we never really had those discussions of what isn't acceptable here. Again, they're not conversations that you want, and I'm grateful that we haven't had to have those conversations yet. But I also don't want to bring those in kind of out of the blue, like, wow, where did this come from? I thought I was doing great. And so I think kind of setting clearer expectations is something that's easily forgotten about, particularly in a small team where you're intertwined with everybody. And look, the third is delegation, right? It's not something I've done well. And you throw in the fact that I'm not the most organized person in the world and it hasn't— there's things that have slipped through the cracks. There's things that could have been done more efficiently, more effectively. And now it's, you know, I'm trying to do better at delegating, whether it's, you know, Managing some of the operational pieces, whether it's, you know, taking customer meetings that don't need me, whether there's, you know, kickoff meetings that don't need me and kind of freeing up my calendar. Something that I was very efficient at as a billing manager in my previous role was like, hey, like, these are the times that you can talk to me and these are the times you can't. As a business owner, made myself almost too available. Not fair to my family, not fair to my mental health, like not fair to to kind of setting that gap. And I think I'm probably not the only person that does this, but I've probably overworked inefficiently, uh, just to feel like I'm doing right by everybody. And actually, the right thing to do was delegate tasks or, you know, hire around certain situations that— or outsource things. And instead, I've found myself doing more mundane activities than I would have liked to have been doing.

I think you're being honest, man. I feel like there's so many recruitment owners that can relate to everything you just said. And business owners, a few of those things you just said I am very guilty of and need to improve on. So I think a lot of people will relate to that. Thank you for sharing, mate. Sorry, Ben, what you want to say?

Yeah, I was going to say, I think if there was— because I think delegation is a really— a lot of the recruiters we speak to as well, I think, uh, struggle with delegation just because they are, you know, either high performers or workaholics or just love their job, or, you know, a variety of the above. If there was one thing that you think you could delegate If there's like the 80/20 rule, Stuart, if there's one thing you could delegate that would make the biggest difference, what would that be, do you think?

So I'm in the process of this, but anything operational. So even to like managing offsites, managing our website, managing anything that is not to do with customer-facing activities at this point and hiring, they're the two things like if I could look at what should I be doing more of? It's customer-facing activities, hiring for Hampton North. If I could just do that and allow everything else to happen in the background, we'd be in such a good spot. Um, and I think, look, I, I do think longer term there is a role for a COO or an MD or someone who is, you know, very focused on doubling down on our data activity, running, you know, how active is our candidate pool, you know, what movements are happening a little bit more granular. And I worked so closely with somebody like that in my previous position, and it was— we yin and yang, and we definitely lent into each other's blind spots, which I've definitely found like, yeah, I wish that I'd spent taking some more from him, and maybe he probably feels the same way. But if I could spend all of my time doing customer-facing activities and recruiter-facing activities. And like, honestly, having everyone else take care of everything else, even to the point of like granular management of the team, right? I don't, I don't claim— and look, what's, what's amazing is like the people that have worked for me have, you know, we still keep in touch. I have wonderful recommendations from them, but I don't know that I was this born man manager, people manager. I think some people are born into it. I think I'm more of a leader that you follow, uh, more like a captain than a manager if we're looking to go back to sports analogies. Like, I'll lead from the front, but I'd rather play with you guys than sit back and tell you. Um, and so even the day-to-day management of individuals, like, there's a world where eventually I don't know that that's my future. I'd rather manage potentially executives. Um, but that's a long way down the line. So it's, you know, what is best solution right now. And I think it's starting with some of the, you know, I look at my time as available hour and there's times where I'm definitely an overpaid admin or an overpaid flight booker or I'm an overpaid website designer, stuff like that. So yeah, looking to delegate and outsource where possible because I think it, you know, I'm not— this is something where English versus US culture is very different, but I don't care about spending money if there's return. I'm not I'm not looking at my business and looking at how we can save money. I'm looking at how do we get more, and if that costs more money, I'm okay with it.

Love that. A brilliant reminder for me and you, Ben, as well. Delegation is something me and you do at the moment. 100%. Um, we're coming to the end of the pod.

Sure.

I would love to dive into content, branding, LinkedIn. There are some recruiters that have got a solid process and kind of ignore LinkedIn, and that's cool, they're still making a lot of money. You obviously had a solid process before posting, is my gut feeling from what you said. What made you want to start delving into the world of LinkedIn and building your brand online? Was it— was it— yeah, maybe I'll start with that.

Yeah, so I'd kind of seen other folks do it with some success, and then it was just like, why don't I just tell everyone what I'm up to, right? I can— I don't care if everyone cares or not, like, but I'm working on some of the best opportunities in the world. I'm working with some of the best candidates in the world. I'm speaking to some of the most interesting people in the world, at least in our domain, right? Um, why don't I not just make a narrative out of this? And I think it started with a whole lot more rigidity and structure. And again, I think COVID was a time where it accelerated because so many people spent so much more time on LinkedIn because like most people didn't know what to do, right? They were just like, okay, do I still have a job? Like, what's going on? Um, and I thought that was a really good time to double down on the community. And I went from having a decent following to becoming like an influencer light in cybersecurity. And, you know, it's like it served me so well. And, you know, the way I look at it now is for me, it's one of my best methods of client and candidate engagement. But it's also fun, right? Like, I have a ton of fun with it. You see, everything on there is not super serious. Like, obviously I post about business, I post about some of the opportunities we're working on, some of the great things we're doing as a team. But like, I give people an insight into my personality as well because, you know, I don't want to work with everybody. I don't want to work with someone who actively dislikes the way that I see the world. It's just not that fun. And I don't need the money that much. I would rather have fun with the people I work with that, like, you know, again, see, again, I'm not looking at people clones of me, but like respect my opinion and respect, you know, the way that I do things. And, you know, a lot of the clients are like, hey, I love the way you do this. And, you know, I know you're going to post this and have a bit of fun with this and we love that and that's why we're working with you. But I would say, look, it started very early in more of a structured um, really mega focused in the same way that, like, if you start a workout routine, um, you need structure, you need focus, you need reps. Once you're ripped, you can go and do, you know, you can go and do like hand walks, or you can go and just, hey, I feel like a 20-mile run today. Um, and, and I'm not that, but in LinkedIn terms now, it's a, hey, I feel like doing you know, I feel like running up a mountain today. So this is what I'm going to post because it's so habitual and I never need to know that, hey, I have to work out today. It's like, cool, what am I going to say today? Like, what, what's on my mind? I'm not one of those people that loads it up. Sometimes I do if I think of something and it's like, you know, and a lot of the things I think of is actually when I'm not working, unless I'm having a really good conversation with somebody and then I'm like, hey, I'm actually going to post this on LinkedIn. Is that okay? But some of the stuff and some of the things you think of and look, I'm, I'm obsessive, right? I think that's one of the biggest things that has gotten me where I got to is like, I'm like recruitment. Like, I don't have massive amounts of hobbies. I play a bit of golf, like, fine, hang out with my family, but I'm not like, like I don't have a huge calling other than like I'm a really good recruiter. That might make me sound boring, but, you know, the reality is I like what I do. I like this job. I like what it's afforded to me. Um, and so it's, you know, I think about these things over the weekend. I think about these things even, you know, on the Peloton or whatever. And it's when your mind is a little, you know, there's a science behind that, right? Like when your mind is actually a little bit more, um, kind of detached from what you're doing, that's where the really great things pop into your head. Um, and it's also where you tend to unpack a lot of your problems. Obviously therapy is the most healthy way to do that, but if you're, you know, I found myself frustrated, I go for a run, then I unpack how I'm going to solve a solution. Come back to my laptop and do it. And it's the same with content. Some of the great stuff happens when you're not thinking about it. That's when you— like, some people, like comedians, take a notepad with them, right? Like, they jot down their ideas because it never— the second they go and sit, they can't come up with the content. So I kind of like— obviously LinkedIn makes it really easy because you can just say, hey, cool, I'm going to post this on Tuesday, go. Um, but I think you kind of need to have that mindset of a comedian of like, oh my God, this is great, people are going to love this. I'm going to type this now on a Sunday afternoon, it's going to come out on Tuesday, um, versus, you know, I, I don't know if I could— and I know a lot of people do this, but like, I don't know if I could plug out a Tuesday afternoon, write 10 blogs. I couldn't do it. Like, that's not, that's not how I'm wired. And I think I may be a little bit more creative than I'd give myself credit for in my younger years, um, but the best content comes when you're not trying to force it.

Hmm, so interesting.

I love that, and I love how you describe that as well, like comparing it to the gym, like, you do have to absolutely sweat it out at the beginning, and then there comes this point where you're like, you can actually start having fun with it. And the problem is most recruiters, and most people, don't put in the time and effort needed to get to that point. How, how long did it take you before you felt that, that ease, do you think?

Uh, probably, probably 2 years, 2, 3 years. Like, it wasn't, uh, and honestly, I would say it's the same journey with the gym, right? You look at the people who are doing 40 pull-ups or whatever, and it's like Everyone wants that, right? Everyone wants it. And everyone looks— and people do look at me and they're like, oh, well, you're just pretty easy because you have this massive personal brand and whatever. And it's like— and I go to the gym and I'm like, I know what I have to do. Like, don't get me wrong. And I say this to people, I know exactly what I have to do to do that. I have to eat amazing, sleep right, drink X amount of water, and work out for an hour a day for 3 years, 5 years, right? Like, it's not a, hey, like, I can go and do this and in 2 weeks I'm going to be fine. Everyone knows exactly what they have to do, um, and it goes back to the basics. Not everyone has the discipline to do it, um, and if you can commit to it, like, and you can commit to not failing, but, um, you know, another good analogy is gardening, right? You can never have instant gratification. You do any work in the garden, it's like, okay, cool, I'm gonna do this because in 3 months if I water this thing, might come up. Um, the same thing, it's the same analogy, right? You just can't, you can't just post and expect that everything's going to play out for you. Um, it's a long, long game, and everyone unfortunately in our industry is trying to do things at a click of their fingers.

You obviously have had a lot of success from LinkedIn attracting business to you, which a lot of people struggle with, Stuart. Even after posting for a year or two years, some people don't get the inbound leads that they're looking for. What are some of the topics that you speak about on a daily, weekly basis that you know your clients and candidates will resonate with?

So there's there's kind of 3 angles to who I am on LinkedIn. One is I post really relevant roles that they will look at and go, okay, well, he obviously knows how to hire this type of profile or for this type of company. So I'm just— I'm in that sense, I'm displaying that I can do what they're looking for, which is, which is kind of part 1 for me. Part 2 is speaking to Speaking to what is happening in our industry that is relevant, even the energy or the vibe of the energy. Like, I was at a conference last week and I was very deliberate about like, this is what's happening, this is what's about to happen. So I know and I have a finger on the pulse, even to the point of going back to stage 1. I'm very honest with salaries. I tell people exactly what things should cost. And, you know, some people do, some people don't. And in the US, there's obviously legislation where most places I have to anyway. Um, but I've always posted salaries, and, you know, not every role can be for everybody. Um, but I know what things should, should be priced at, and people appreciate that because there is so much cloak and dagger and, you know, hey, well, it depends. No, it doesn't. Like, people have a number. Um, and so, and then the third is law of attraction, right? I'm quite positive. I think I'm quite funny on LinkedIn with some things. Um, and so I have that law of attraction of like, okay, you know, this is what's happening, this is quite funny, saw this, um, almost like this, like a Twitter-esque, like Twitter-esque kind of shitposty type thing that's like, I'm not rude, I never talk about, you know, anything that can be too divisive. Um, there's certain topics that you just don't talk about. Um, but I, I have a little bit of fun with it. And then I guess the fourth pillar, and this is probably things that people people don't do is they like, I engage with other people's content, right? And I think everyone is so focused on themselves. Like, let's say, and I know some of the exceptional sales companies across the United States and probably across the world, they have half-day slots for engaging with your target market's content. So let's say you are targeting a head, a CISO of the top 100 banks. Okay, load up what they've posted on LinkedIn, like it, comment on it, ask them why they've said that because again, it's visibility. And so I think that's probably one of the biggest things that people forget about is like, how do I get people to look at me? Um, when you should spend a lot of time looking and engaging with other people because there's a whole different side to that platform that opens up doors. And again, the algorithm will only support— like, let's say you engage with someone's content, guess whose content they're going to see tomorrow if you post?

Yeah, love that, mate. Lovely little mini masterclass in what to post. Um, mate, I can't believe how quickly the time's gone. It's been an hour, absolutely shot by. Thank you so much for coming on, Stuart. That was, uh, really insightful and lots of little golden nuggets in that. So thank you, mate, really appreciate it.

Real pleasure, thanks for having me.

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