How this recruiter built a $500,000 Referral Partnership System!

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Tony Tashara. Now, Tony is a million-dollar biller, but here's where it gets really interesting. 50% of Tony's entire revenue comes from a very attractive referral partnership scheme that he has mastered and continues to market. Now, I'm sure you've all heard of referral partnership schemes.

It's nothing new.

However, very few recruiters can pull them off effectively, let alone generate hundreds of thousands in revenue. In today's episode, Tony's gonna be sharing Tony's exact process of how he goes about creating a very successful and lucrative referral partnership system, how Tony creates content that gets him consistent inbound leads, and finally, Tony's gonna be giving us some tips around how he's managed to bill so consistently at such a high level. This one is packed with insights that you're not gonna wanna miss, guys. and as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Cool.

Tony, thank you so much for joining us today. I am really looking forward to this podcast. I have to say, your story and your thinking is very unique in my opinion. So thank you for joining us and thank you for waking up so early as well.

No, thanks, Ben. Thanks, Sam. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm actually always up early. I've got kids, right? So I mean, you know, 5 AM is often, you know, normal time for me, so this is nothing. Cool.

I don't know what it is. It might be, uh, it might be a bit of a generalization, but I feel like when I speak to anyone in the US, they are— US are early risers. Pretty much every single US client I've had always wake up at the crack of dawn. And I don't know, I don't know. Do you find that to be the case? Am I dreaming here?

Or— yeah, I do a lot of meetings early morning and actually late at night as well. So it's just like us Americans, we're bad at like forming boundaries, I think.

So like, I think it's just an incredible work ethic, isn't it?

Yeah, I don't know that, or, or it's just bad time management.

Cool. Well, let's jump on to the first question, if that's okay with you, Tony. We always ask every single guest, uh, this question, and it's what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Yeah, that's, that's a good question, you know, and I would say for me it really is a blending of everything, but I do think it starts with a mindset with the idea of like, when I go in to talk to a potential prospect or, you know, a client that needs help or even a candidate, I really go in it with a mindset of like, I want to genuinely help these people, right? I don't look at it from like, I'm going to try to close this business and make money off of them. Really, it's about, hey, how do I dig deeper, find out what you're really trying to solve? And then that helps me do a better job for them. And what happens as a result? We close more business, right? So it just, it creates more trust and authenticity. And that's really been able to help me. So I guess it's kind of a blending of like, hey, a mindset and a strategy of like, hey, I'm consultative. I can't tell you what you need as a client until you actually tell me what you need and we can discuss it, right? So my perspective in recruiting is that hiring is not necessarily the goal of a company, right? Every organization, whether you're an early-stage startup or you're mature in, you know, your org, is that you have some sort of objective that you're trying to solve, right? Maybe it's a product launch, maybe it's a rebrand, something like that. Hiring is just the byproduct of trying to get that done. And so really what the way I approach it is, okay, well, if we don't get this hire in place for you, what does that mean for your business? And we kind of reverse engineer it back that way. And what I found has been successful with that is that it gets more buy-in because then they realize as well, this is bigger than just a hire. This is, we're either going to hit our goals or not. So that's how I really kind of have that mindset and strategy in approaching things, you know, um, and then from a tooling standpoint, right, anything that I can do to automate my processes, the mundane processes to make things move much faster. So whether that is using, you know, tools like SendSpark to do video outreach, Dripify to automate things, um, a lot of AI tools to go through my candidate database. That's helped me be more efficient and spend more time with my clients and candidates.

Awesome, awesome. Great responses.

If there was one tool that you found the most useful, out of interest, um, Tony, what would it be? What one that you would be like, yes, this is the one that saved me the most time?

Yeah, well, I will tell you this right now. I'm a big fan of SendSpark. Uh, so shout out to Bethany and team right now. Like video prospecting has kind of been a huge game changer because we all get hit up in our inboxes all the time with like, you know, hey, we offer this service, RPO, staffing and recruiting. I'm like, you don't even look at me. I'm a recruiter as well. Right? So when I use video prospecting. I can put my face, you know, whether that's a good thing or not, right? It depends on who you ask if you wanna look at this, but it, it does give me a chance to kind of stand out and give, create a human-to-human interaction. So huge game changer. And I do recommend anybody, you know, whether it's recruiting or standard sales, account management, start embracing more video type software.

Awesome. What is it called? SendSpark?

SendSpark. Yeah.

SendSpark.

Yeah, yeah, great product.

And what does it do that's different? Because it sounds like it does it at volume. What does it do that's different to just sending a normal video?

Yeah, so it automates at scale, right? So literally I can create it in there, and when I put a campaign in there, the AI is going to look at the name and the company of who I'm prospecting, and it's going to mimic my voice and automatically drop it at scale. So there becomes a level of personalization.

That's awesome. That's really clever. Incredible. I've used that before via email email, so not that product, but something similar. And is that via email or via LinkedIn or both?

Both.

Oh, brilliant.

And it's awesome too because I can literally be in LinkedIn Messenger and I can go, oh, there's Ben, let me just send him a quick message. Literally, I can click it with the Chrome extension, record it, drop it right in there, and then I can, you know, and there's tracking. I can see who opened it.

Oh, brilliant.

Wow.

I can go back and follow, right? So it's a very inexpensive tool.

So, you know, interesting.

Bethany, if you're listening, I'm ready for my free, uh, 20%.

That's awesome. Thank you. That's already a massive golden nugget for other people, which is cool. Um, and I have to say, I wasn't planning on bringing this into the podcast, um, Tony, but then I looked at your profile. I just looked at your post and I saw a post that stood out to me, and it looked— it was really very vulnerable, very honest, and it was— it looked like a life-changing point in your life where you were working 70 hours a week. It sounded like you were in hospital and just in a really bad way. And I feel like we, we should talk about that if you're open and willing, because it sounds like a really important moment in your life that shifted things. Do you mind talking to us what happened and how you got there?

Yeah, you know, and I'm a pretty open book on, you know, LinkedIn. I think that, you know, beyond just a branding perspective but just a community perspective, I think it's important to present yourself holistically, right, beyond the professional realm, because I think it buys credibility. And, you know, my old— one of my old sayings is, if they buy you, they buy from you. So I think it's just bringing out that level of authenticity. But yeah, I mean, about 2 years ago, I co-founded, you know, an AI-based startup, and we were grinding away hours. I was still working at Handle as my day job, and then I was like building this at night. And then you just, you know, we talked about like, you know, those boundaries. I would be working from 6 AM to like 10 PM, just nonstop. Didn't get to see my kids as much as I wanted. Um, and then just, you know, when you're working a lot, right? Just like everything goes out the window, right? Like your diet, your exercise, your wellbeing. And it was just, it was deteriorating really fast. And then September, you know, about a year ago, I ended up catching an infection on a hike with my kids, ended up in the hospital for 3 days in the ER on like IV antibiotics. And that really gave me some time to kind of take stock on, you know, what was important for me. And I ultimately made the decision. It was a hard decision, you know, like to walk away. Walk away from, you know, the startup that I co-founded, um, and just focus primarily on recruiting just because really it's been my first love and I, and I really do love working with candidates and clients. And so as I do things forward, I really kind of try to lead more of an intentional life. And, and what that means for me is I really want to be more discerning on the clients that I work with. The candidates that I represent, um, and just the people that I help. Uh, so when I do things for people, I do it without asking for anything in return. Um, when I work with clients, I want to make sure that they meet my value system. Um, I've, I've fired clients because, you know, either they didn't align with how I felt the hiring process should go, you know, going 3, 4 weeks between interview cycles. It's just not productive for anyone. And, you know, so I just, I really try to be more intentional on the things I do and I share my story, my wisdom and my mistakes. And there's a lot of mistakes that I make still to this day. Um, and I think that just creates me to be more authentic, hopefully. Um, and you don't have to like me, right? I'm not for everyone, but at least I'll stand out from the pack a little bit in the sea of recruiters.

Yeah, I love that. I can't stress enough, and I'm sure everyone feels the same way, about how important it is to have the right clients. I feel like it makes such a big difference to your life and your working environment, like it's unbelievable. Me and Sam have been through this, and you know, when you have the wrong client, you could have 9 really good clients and 1 horrifically bad client, and it can completely change how you feel about work. For me anyway, like, I'll wake up thinking about that client in the shower when I have a bad client, and I'll go to bed thinking about that client. And it's just like, the amount of mental energy it takes is unbelievable. So I love that you've, you know, put some really strict boundaries around working with clients that align with your values. I think if every recruiter did that, they would be a lot happier.

And it's hard too. It's hard because, you know, we're in a tough economy, and when there's opportunities to to make money for, you know, your business and your family, it's tempting, right? And so it's just, it's discipline that I've had to create for myself and to ask myself, is this a client I truly want to work with? Is this a company that I feel comfortable presenting candidates to? Because again, like, this is my brand and my reputation, and that's more important to me than any, like, immediate revenue that might come in.

I just want to go back to mistakes as well, because I feel like you spend a day scrolling through LinkedIn and everyone's won the lottery, everyone's won an award, everyone's making 50 grand a month, and it's like just filled with positivity, almost to a— not a toxic sense, I hate using that word, but just endless positivity. And I think there's such a gap in the market for people just sharing mistakes. So I think that's really— and I follow a chap called Yasin who kind of, um, he's building an online business and he's like a video guru, and he shares a lot of his mistakes, and it brings me so much closer to him. It's insane when he shares his mistakes. He shares what he's, he's aiming for— make $300K in 30 days. Sometimes he gets it, sometimes he doesn't, but when he doesn't, it really connects me to him. It's crazy.

Yeah, and I think anybody, if you're building a business, whether it's recruiting or a product or any sort of services, and I think If you can involve your user base and your audience along the ride for your journey and just, you know, like, hey, we're, we're testing some features out, right? I think you're going to get more buy-in. So literally, as you go to market, you've got that built-in audience who are cheering for you, right? And they want to go along for the ride with you on, you know, your, your highs and your lows. And again, I always tell people that You know, I tell my candidates and I tell other recruiters, we're living in the world of commodity state, right? You could be the most talented candidate in the world. You could be the best recruiter in the world. But guess what? There's a lot of other talented recruiters and candidates out there. So how are you going to stand out against the noise, right? And so that's where you have to figure out How do I not become a commodity? And I think just again, putting yourself out there, sharing your journeys, highs, lows, soliciting feedback just creates a lot of buy-in and community.

Yeah, you said it a lot better than I did, Tony. Thank you.

That was perfect.

Yeah.

So I feel like we have to talk about this because it's very impressive. You are a million-pound biller. I think you said, correct me if I'm wrong, in the pre-call you are on track to hit 1.5 this year. Which is amazing. How long did it take you to get to that level? Because I love going into the realism of what it takes to get to your level. You know, you're probably in the top 1% or 5%, you know, in top percentile of recruiters. How long did it take to get to that level, do you think, Tony, where you were billing a million?

Yeah, it took about 2 solid years, you know.

Okay, I thought you were going to say a lot longer than that, actually, Tony.

No, and here's the thing, a lot of it comes down to, again, relationships. And literally, we got in with a really, really large company who had multiple roles needing to be filled. And then it was just literally relentless high-level service and just kind of providing, you know, again, like, hey, what are the— what's the next thing you're trying to accomplish? How can we help? Right? It was never about how can I help you fill this position. It was like, how can I help? So it was giving a lot of free advice, which is like unsolicited You know, would not with the intention of saying, well, I can fill that for you. It was more of just providing advice and just kind of being that constant where whenever they thought of a different role, they thought of Handle and they thought of Tony and his team. And so we started getting into other functions beyond what we were doing, right? So it was just for a while we were just filling in for developers, but I'm like, yeah, we can help you with your sales team. You need account executives. You need operational people. So it was really kind of just creating that sense of stickiness. And then from there, it was literally like, hey, is there anybody else could use our service? It was just a lot of referral base. And then we just, we snowballed it from there. And then, you know, as you know, you know, my model is 50% kind of retained search, 50% staffing. So it almost becomes like a SaaS model where it just— I have this ARR that just continues to compound on itself. So we just— we found a lot of success really quickly. I think the most— I wouldn't call it a mistake, but the learning point that I really kind of learned over the last year and a half is that diversifying is always good. So when you have all your eggs in one client's basket, you're almost at their mercy in the sense of if their revenue goes down or their budget goes down, it just, it's a trickle-down effect, right? So just kind of taking what we did successfully and then figure out how do we replicate that. So then that way we're diversified against, you know, any one client who sees a downtick in their revenue.

Interesting.

And just to, so I can understand, so it took you about 2 years to get to a million. But prior to that, you've been recruiting for a while. Am I right in saying that, Tony?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So been recruiting for a number of years and a lot of that was just, you know, it was up and down, but it literally— it's once we started getting more into a staffing model of, you know, working with talent down in Latin America, that was sort of the unlock potential for us. And then it was just like, you know, we haven't looked back.

Interesting.

Cool.

That's a great response because that brings me on to my next question perfectly, which is most recruiters— we ask a question for most recruiters and they— we say like, what was the, what was the moment at which your, you know, your billing started to significantly increase or stabilize or improve? And I'm guessing that is the point for you which things started to stabilize is diversifying and hiring from LATAM. Am I right in saying that, um, Tony?

Yeah, I would absolutely say so. And I just think The, what it was, was a variety of things. One, it was the economy and what they could support for salaries. And then two, the emergence of AI really kind of limited the talent pool in North America, right? So every startup is looking for, you know, to add AI to their product and they probably should. But the challenge is they need machine learning engineers. They need, you know, data scientists. Well, guess what? Meta and Google and all those companies are paying those people $300,000 to sit on their ass and not do anything. So they just don't go to the competition. Now you're a startup and you're trying to get off the ground and you're trying to build this stuff. Where are you going to find the people to build this product? So really opening up the talent pool and going globally has allowed people to find amazing talented developers down in Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, who cost half the price of what they pay in the US, and they're just as good. So the whole idea now with startups is like, hey, your capital's limited, your runway is short, do more for less. And that's sort of been the secret sauce for us. As we've grown over the last year and a half is just really kind of niching down and saying, you need help building your AI product, we've got the talent that can help you do that.

Interesting.

What's been your most successful way of marketing your services to these startups? Is it again been referral, Tony, or has there been other methods?

Yeah, so that's a great question. To be completely honest, We do very, very little direct outreach. You know, like I do employ somebody who helps manage like, you know, traditional email campaigns and we do cold calling and, and we do all the traditional methods. But yeah, a lot of our businesses come either through like LinkedIn, through like thought leadership that we've created and kind of curated, or yeah, referrals. We've got a referral program that's been mighty successful for us. And just that word of mouth of just going back like, hey, is there anybody that you think could benefit from our types of services? And then just kind of having those conversations. I'm a part of a bunch of communities that where I just, I continuously provide free advice and, you know, give, you know, feedback. And that's just sort of naturally created this awareness of the brand. and we've driven a lot of business that way, but very, very little as far as like traditional outreach. And we're— we ramp it up slowly, but I mean, it's an expensive proposition.

Interesting. I've got to jump into that because you're probably the only recruiter we've spoken to, um, Tony, that had such a large majority. Is it 50? I think you said it's 50% from Afra Always, maybe 50% roughly from thought leadership. Is that— would that be accurate, or maybe a little bit less?

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, cool.

Yeah, that's amazing. That's like unheard of. I haven't heard of a recruiter making, you know, billing a million and doing 50% of that from referrals. I think it's genius. When I did a post about it that you saw, there's some people that loved it, other people were kind of pushing back and saying, you know, kind of— and I was like, what? How could— I don't know. Recruiters always—

all—

there was— there will always be recruiters out there that find a negative on something amazing. And it always annoys me, but I have to kind of hold my tongue when people—

Well, well, that's the thing I always tell myself is I'm going to be the recruiter that other recruiters hate. Yes, I'm just trying to— I'm trying to shake things up. And like the model, the model is just, you know, the way I look at it is every other industry in 2024 has had to adapt and change. Recruiting seems to be one that hasn't. And we continuously charge 20%, and we do these things. And, and if certain industries, certain relationships, hey, have at it, right? I just, I'm approaching it from a different direction, and we found success.

Awesome. What words of wisdom could you give? Like, is it, is it just as simple as, you know, I'm being a bit naive here when I say this, but is it just as simple as messaging anyone and everyone and saying, hey, if you can refer us to X, Y, and Z, we'll give you this amount of money? Is there any other strategic kind of bits of advice you can give to other people that might want to use a similar strategy?

Yeah, yeah. So the way I look at it, so I, you know, I have my collateral that's created, and then I've got it on an automated, like, you know, outbound campaign. So it's going to people's inboxes, just say, hey, how— I'll let you know. But like, literally, I send it to everyone in my network, you know, my candidate pool as well, because there are a great source for referring in a business. Um, and so it's just constant front of mind sort of thing. And then just kind of talking out some of the successes, like, hey, this person just made this, um, if you know somebody who can do that, right? So it's just, you know, become very, very viral for me and just created this sense of awareness, right? Where— so the way my program works is that I'll pay $1,500 USD to anybody who basically refers me into a business and they become a client, and I'll pay you $1,500 per hire. So not just like flat per hire. So it really motivates people to make those introductions. And so, you know, we wrote a check for $6,500 in the beginning of the year to a woman I met on LinkedIn. She introduced me to a company and they ended up placing 5 hires. Wow. Right? Now, I have a couple of rules in place. One, I don't offer this program to anybody who's going to refer within their company because I don't want to create a sense of bias or whatnot. But if it's more of a, I've got a friend or a sister or an old coworker who could benefit, let me introduce you. That's great. But if it's like, hey, I'm the, you know, I'm the product manager at this company, let me introduce you to my boss. I just, I don't want to create that sort of bias, you know, thing. And I give two options. I'll either pay you direct or I'll also write a check to a charity of your choice. And then I'll show you the receipts as well. For some people, like they don't need the money and the idea of like, hey, you know, this is a charity that's near and dear to my heart. Love to do it. I love writing checks, you know, and the way I came up with this was I had BDRs before, and the challenge is what I've seen is that the delta between ramp-up time of getting somebody up to speed and the money that you've already spent is getting shorter and shorter. So by the time 60, 90 days of just kind of getting ramped, understanding the industry, understanding the processes, I'm already 3 months invested into spending on this person. And if they don't hit the ground running, I mean, it's a huge sunk cost because you add in benefits, payroll taxes. It's really expensive. So this becomes a pay-to-play program where the $6,500 I wrote that woman, it's well worth it because that netted me a huge ROI on what I did versus somebody who's working every day and they might net me a few meetings that might not turn in anything. Pay, right? But I got to pay them anyway. So, you know, and then I provide everyone with the tax form so that way they can, you know, send it to the IRS and make sure everything's on the up and up. Because I know some people, you know, might be concerned about like the legalities of it, right? But there's a lot of companies out there that I've talked to, and referral programs is sort of becoming the next thing in their kind of their outreach channel. That it's not going to replace prospecting, obviously, and I think it will ever, but it becomes a relatively low-cost way to just multi-thread a channel and just drive business in a different way.

Yeah, so fascinating. So the interesting thing is I've heard like the referral program isn't new. I've heard of that from many people before and different businesses. But what's interesting about what you said, Tony, is you, you actually putting a lot of effort into marketing this referral program. Like you're putting a lot of energy, it sounds like, into you know, figuring out the steps, understanding how to communicate it, and then actively communicating it to the right people constantly, even to the point where you're sharing wins. Like, this woman managed to get 6.5, you could be the next person. And I feel like you really thought about how you're going to market this. Has that been part of the success, do you think, that you've been doing that consistently?

Yeah, I don't want it to just be something that's on a landing page that just never gets any visibility, but, you know, I did, and I also didn't want to be just like another half measure, right? Well, oh yeah, we got this referral program and nobody knows about it. I'm like, if I put the time in this and we're going to invest capital into this, then let's just try to blow it up and see what happens, right? And if it didn't work, okay, we'll try something else. And eventually this may slow down and then it's like, okay, what's the next thing that we can do? But for right now, what that's done, it's made my margins really, really sharp because again, I keep my overhead really, really low on my own internal staffing and I can just reinvest that money back into the business.

Really interesting.

What was the—

was there any needle mover with the referral program in terms of you did this and then you were like, oh wow, this seems to be getting a better response? Was there anything that happened along the way?

So I would say, you know, just a lot of education because at first, right, we had to refine it a little bit because people thought at first, oh, I can refer you candidates. I'm like, oh no, no, no, no. Finding candidates in 2024 is not the hard part at all. Right. So we had to really kind of refine it. And then, you know, what I found is like, hey, I'll even give you the script of what you can give via email of just, you know, you can tweak it to what you feel comfortable with, but just Literally, it's like, hey, this is Tony with Handle. He places developers from Latin America into startups. Thought you might be able to use him. I'll let you guys have a conversation. And that's all you have to do. And literally, that's it. And then you wash your— you know, you can walk away and get paid. I don't need anybody to do a lot. So when people realize I don't have to do very much and I can get paid, they're like, what do I have to lose?

I love that. I feel like you could create a course out of this, Tony, and actually make a separate income just from teaching other recruiters how to— oh, it's brilliant— create a successful referral program.

One thing that really— because I feel like it's worth talking about— one thing that really I remember from the comment of the post was, is this, um, ethical? And I, I thought I had— I was thinking about this and I was like, I tried to like kind of play out the scenarios, and then I was like, yes, this is absolutely If it's a scenario which I thought it was, like you just mentioned, Tony, is that ethical?

I—

like, what's unethical about that? Do you see what I mean? I don't see— they're not, they're not, um, they're simply just making an introduction. There's no bias there whatsoever, and you still have to sell yourself and deliver and go through all these hoops to, to become a, a partner.

It's like, really, yeah, really what this is is just getting past the gatekeepers more than anything else, right? I've had plenty of these referrals go nowhere, right? It's just like it didn't line up, it didn't meet, you know, we weren't a good match. And, and that's okay, right? But it was the idea is like, this is more of like, if you think about this way, it's more of a paid booking system. It's just the idea is to get me more meetings, and then I have to— I still, like you said, Ben, I still have to go and close it. So it becomes an unbiased opinion, you know, of the whole thing. And a lot of times too, if I'm not a good fit, I will refer them to other recruiters who I think might help them better, right? So, you know, and a lot of— there's a few recruiting agencies who I do know use a similar program. They don't advertise it. It's more of like a landing page, like buried deep on their website. So, you know, there is precedent for this. I've just decided, like, you know, I'm gonna really kind blow this up. And I've gotten plenty of people who say, no, not interested. Okay, you move on to the next one, right? But again, I prevent, you know, I present candidates and it's up to the hiring manager in the company to decide, is this somebody that they want to work with, right?

So yeah, yeah.

I don't know why it frustrated me so much. I was just like, but again, this is a typical response from recruiters. Well, and people don't stick to the policy. People don't—

when people don't understand something, they—

yeah.

And that's again why I don't offer the program to anybody who would be referring within their business.

Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Um, do you want to go back a couple steps, uh, Tony? Because you said 50% was referrals and then the other was thought leadership, and I'm guessing that means— just correct me if I'm wrong— creating content on LinkedIn and getting inbound leads or conversation started. Can you give us— sorry, is that— let me confirm that. Is that kind of what you meant by that?

Yeah, yeah. Videos, white paper, just like just general thought leadership on the industry and whatnot. Yeah.

Cool.

I'm sure there are still plenty. I mean, me and Ben speak to them on a weekly basis. There's still plenty of people that don't really know where to start with thought leadership and content. And you obviously managed to do it quite successfully. 50% of your business is coming from there. Where should people start if you were to give them like a rough structure, like rundown of what you're doing that's successful?

Yeah. So, you know, in the beginning I was like all over the place, just kind of whatever kind of thought popped in my head. I was just like throwing it out there. What I would really suggest is start by becoming really tactical. Um, pick 3 or 4 subjects or topics that are really important to you, kind of like those major tenets that you believe in, and then just like Write them out. And then from there, you can start figuring out, okay, you know, like, so for me, it's candidate advocacy, right? It's, you know, ethics in the hiring process, right? It's pay trans— you know, transparency, things like that. Once I know, okay, these are the things that are really important to talk about, I start breaking them down of like, okay, what kind of like sub-posts can I talk about with these things? And then from there, like, I'll create, like, I'll have like 20 different things and like, okay, now I'll just start writing about them. And then eventually, like, I started a blog, then I can break that down in a short form, then I can create a video, then I can create an infographic, right? So like one post can create 5 other like sub posts on that. And so I think the important thing is like sitting down, creating a content calendar and kind of outlining the things. And then again, I also work in Tony as part of the process as well, right? So usually Fridays, like, I'll talk about my journey as a single dad and just like being an entrepreneur and a single dad and just kind of having those like kind of like the highs and the lows. And so I think mixing in thought leadership, brand selling, you're, you know, selling yourself as well just kind of creates this holistic approach. And then the last thing is like you have to be consistent, right? So you don't have to post every day. But at least, you know, start with like, hey, I'm going to post once a week and then ramp it up from there. And then the last thing I always say is like, make sure that you're commenting on other people's posts, especially people who you want to interact with, right? Because that's going to create some visibility. So because there's nothing more that's annoying than somebody connects with me on LinkedIn and then like 60 seconds later they're selling me on Messenger, right? It's like, I get it. Yeah, I mean, and I get it. Like, I know when I accept connect, it's coming, right?

I've done it as well. I've done it as well. But being on the receiving end of it is frustrating, especially when it's a crap message. It's like, oh, it makes your blood boil, like, just for a second.

Or they get it wrong and they sell you a completely different product, and it's like, would you like to come get your hair done?

Like, I haven't got any hair, man. Come on. No. And, and like, you know what, what my opening line is, is like, you know, hey Sam, Thanks for connecting with me on LinkedIn. Now I can sell you some shit, like, LOL, right? So I kind of disarm them, right?

Yeah, see, that would disarm me.

That would make me like at least giggle or be like, okay, right, right, you know, and then I'll be like, hey, you know, you know, kidding aside, and then I just kind of provide them more of like, hey, if you ever want to learn more about this, I don't go into like, hey, set a meeting, anything like that. It just becomes more of a, hey, just creating awareness, right? Because a lot of people still don't know the value of selling, you know, working with people from Latin America.

So I want—

like, it starts with a lot of awareness.

Yeah.

And then we go from there, right? So commenting on other people's posts create awareness. So then when you finally do message them, they're like, oh, I remember him, he's commented on— and, you know, so you have to look at social media as a long game.

Yeah.

Right. And we can't be impatient or else it's just, you know, it's— you're not going to see the kind of results that you want.

Interesting. I feel like when me and Sam introduced— so we have something called it, and this isn't a plug, this is actually, yeah, related to what you're saying, so I'll finish it and hopefully you'll understand. We, we introduced something called a free trial for people. So we basically, hey guys, try us out for free, and if you like us, then you can buy. Since we've done that, it's been like transformational. Me and Sam have learned so many lessons, and we'd be like, oh my God, let's provide value up front. And then we were like, okay, it's all about the offer. And we knew this, but then having a different offer made such a big difference. I feel like LATAM is the equivalent to that, where you have a unique offer that a lot of recruiters don't really have. Am I right in saying that, that the offer itself, like saying, hey, I've got access to cheaper talent that are, you know, are equally as good, is a very attractive offer to the people that you're speaking to?

So it's actually quite a saturated market.

Oh really?

Okay, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of nearshoring agencies that are out there.

Okay, interesting. So it doesn't automatically give you a free pass to get—

no, not at all. A couple years ago, yes, but now I think with the competition, right, it's just like there's more of them out there. I think where our differentiator is, and one of the things I talk about, is that, you know, our costs are a lot less than even a lot of our competition. And the reason being is just quite simply, we're not greedy. Right. A lot of them, the big players that I'm not going to name here, but you can look them up. They keep up to 50% of the bill rate for themselves. And I just kind of found that morally offensive. So literally, you know, the way I approach it is like, not only is our cost going to be less than what you're going to see with competitors. So, you know, your average, you know, dev in Brazil they might charge you $65 and the developer's only keeping $30 of that, right? The way I look at it is like, well, you know what, that's just not right for administrative fees. Instead I say, okay, we're only $45. And the reason being is we're not undercutting what the developer gets paid. We're undercutting what we get paid because we don't need that much. I only keep 15% of it and pass everything onto the talent. So it's just kind of creating this concept of moral responsibility, geopolitical awareness, and it just kind of helps differentiate me versus the sea of competitors out there. Now there's other good ones out there. I don't want to disparage the industry or anything like that, but I've found that this is what works well for me. The other thing that you, I really have to call out as well is like, I'm not a development agency. So like, I don't. We don't do any development. I am just a staffing agency. So, you know, these guys and gals, they work for you directly. So there is some education that happens. And so that's why I find when I'm doing outreach, a lot of it, we don't go into the pitch right away. It's more about, hey, have you ever been curious about what it would be like to work with LATAM talent? Can I share with you some information, just 5 tips and best practices? And we just we keep the conversation going that way, you know, naturally.

Interesting. I, I know it's saturated, but I'm curious in terms of where your product, where your customer, what, what mindset they're in when you're approaching them. When you're approaching them, have they ever heard of this before? Have they been burnt before? Like, what mindset are they in when you approach them typically, when they can, like, for people that typically convert? Um, Tony?

Yeah, yeah. So oftentimes they confuse offshoring in nearshoring as the same thing. Offshoring is basically if you live in North America, you're working with talent like, you know, in India, Asia, Africa offshore, whereas nearshore basically means like Latin America down south, right? So different things, right? So better time zone overlap, different cultural sensibilities. And so oftentimes they feel like The biggest roadblock is that they feel challenged where like, well, I only pay X to work from talent in Brazil, within India versus what you're telling me in Brazil. And it's like, well, they're apples and oranges, right? So we're not as cheap as getting talent in the Philippines or India, but we're not as expensive as talent in the US. We're kind of that sweet spot where I always say we're the sweet spot of Talent, cost, and it's just like a nice mixture. I always say it's the best bang for your buck, but it requires a lot of education to help them understand it. And so I have to make it as frictionless as possible. I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna share with you a bunch of resumes. I'm gonna NPC a bunch of resumes, meet any of them for free. I'm so confident that once you meet them, you're gonna love them. You don't like them, walk away as friends. And then I offer a 7-day free trial. Right.

You hire them as well. Interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 7-day free trial, right, where if they don't work out, then you don't pay anything.

Brilliant. Wow. So that's— I mean, that's a perfect example of what we do as well, which is why it works so well, because that, that's brilliant.

I mean, again, sorry, Ben, can I just jump in? What, what kind of— I'm guessing— well, I'll just ask you, what kind of response have you gotten from the free trial? What, what's their mindset? What kind of happens? You mind talking us through it?

Um, yeah, so it just basically disarms them to at least say, you know, what do I have to lose, you know, to try somebody out right now. The thing that I do is that if they don't work out, we will replace them for free. I'm not going to charge, you know, for that 7 days, because what you don't want to happen is they just get free labor for a week. You know, they bring somebody on to complete a project, like, ah, they didn't work out, we're not going to pay right? We don't want to do that. So it's more a part of like, hey, you sign a contract for certain terms, 3 months, 6 months, whatever the case may be. If this person you hire doesn't work out, I'm not going to charge you. We're just going to replace them out and finish off your term. Hmm, cool.

Interesting, right?

Because yeah, because there's a lot of exploitation out there, and I did a bunch of times, I'm gonna go broke really quick. Of course.

Yeah, but it's still a, still a very different and interesting concept that you're offering to get people interested. Um, so I think that's—

yeah, what I'm noticing about you, Tony, is that you're introducing a lot, lots of different things. It's not just one, but there's little things and needle-moving things like the free trial, like LATAM, like the referral scheme, you know, like the video prospecting that's different, that is trying to maximize your results and do something that other recruiters aren't, which is interesting.

Well, think, think about it this way, right? We're in the age now where, you know, Gen Z is becoming the entrepreneurs that are launching new businesses, and they're thinking of innovative ways of how to go to market for their own customers. Right? So I always say, meet your customers where they're at, right? So if I can find ways to create frictionless avenues for them to work with recruiters, I think that aligns with their values as well. And they feel like that is something that meets what they're looking for versus, you know, when I first start off, these are our terms, it's 25%, take it or leave it, go walk, you know, go, you know, fly a kite. That was 5 years ago, and it was a different time, right? This is pre-pandemic, pre, you know, economic collapse. We have to change and evolve with the times because our customer base is as well, right? These founders, they're looking for quick, frictionless, low risk because they're trying to do the same thing for their customers. And, and they have an ethical— they believe more, they're more mission-driven, and they believe in efficacy in hiring and, you know, and global talent. So presenting that, I think, just aligns better and just creates better partnerships long term.

Really interesting. I just want to go back to something that just came to my brain now. You said that you are part of quite a few communities, Tony, and then you provide free value. Um, did I hear that correctly? Do you mind just explaining a bit more about what that entails for anyone that doesn't know what that is, if you, if you don't mind?

Yeah, yeah. So I work, um, as an advisor, uh, for startups.com. And so they're an accelerator, uh, and a community that works with a lot of early-stage, first-time entrepreneurs in how to get your business off the ground, right? So what— it's everything from the nuts and bolts of like, how do I You know, go get funding for my startup. How do I create a pitch deck? How do I do this stuff? And so, you know, as somebody who's, you know, been an entrepreneur for a while, I provide advice around kind of like hiring and team building. And it's just like, again, I go into each time with just like, hey, I'm just consulting. I'm not trying to sell you anything. And it's just, it's more of a long game. And again, creating credibility. They might not become my customer, but again, referral program, a lot of these entrepreneurs are broke. And the idea of making $1,500 for referring, it just, again, it's, it's a natural hand-in-glove fit. And I think if more recruiters join communities and just kind of get their brand out there as a way of helping, I think again, that just creates credibility because we know you guys have been doing this for a while. People don't like recruiters. They don't trust us. It's just, it's, it's okay. Like they hate us until they need us. Right? So like I put a viral I put a viral post last week that was kind of like a fake text message where it was like, it's pissed off CTO that said via text, don't ever text me again. We don't ever use recruiters. And then 6 months later, he's like, hey, I was just laid off. Can you help me?

Right.

So the whole idea is like, hey, you know, you don't want a recruiter until you actually need them.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think anything we can do to show that recruiters are people too. And that we're actually here to help, the good ones are, I think just creates that trust and credibility. And I think working through community is really good. And I, you know, so startups.com is a great place, you know, there's tons of recruiters that are there as well, learning, like if you're trying to build your recruitment business from the ground up, it's a great place to kind of start.

And in terms of where you found the most kind of value for your business in the communities, has it been that introducing the referral partnership into there? Has it been finding clients there? Like, what has been the knock-on effect of helping people through the communities?

Yeah, I think a lot of it's just been more through just the natural referrals of people in their own network, you know. Like, admittedly, a lot of the businesses that are there aren't necessarily at the stage yet where they need to be hiring. They're still solopreneurs and just kind of like pre-revenue. But the whole idea is like it would bear fruit down the line. And honestly, I just like— again, my point earlier of just leading a more thoughtful life is I, I like sharing and I like giving back and I like supporting because I wish I had that when I was building my first businesses. And so I'm like, if you can learn from my mistakes, then please, you know, just take it.

Yeah, I'm getting that as a theme throughout speaking to you for the 45 minutes, that you actually like sharing, like it brings you a lot of joy just sharing and giving value to other people. Um, And sorry, I didn't have to— sorry, Tony, go ahead.

I was gonna say, well, I'm in sales, so I love to hear myself talk, right?

And the community thing reminded me of— I have to say this because it was so fascinating— there's this massive YouTuber who does Minecraft videos, but before he blew up, he, he, he joined a lot of Minecraft communities online and was speaking them for like 2 years, giving value, getting to know people. And then when he made these videos, he posted them in the communities and these communities were half the reason why he managed to blow up. But it was just interesting that that was what— how he did it, like, like infiltrating communities, being authentic, providing value.

Yeah, I'm all over Reddit, I'm all over Discord, right? And again, just trying to offer value as well. And just the idea again is not to sell, but just provide like, you know, a point of view and just advice. And then that's organically, like, I'll get messages like, hey, I have a couple questions. I'm like, well, let's talk off Reddit, you know, like I can get your information and we can talk, you know, online later. So again, I think just opening up avenues like Facebook groups, Reddit, you know, Discord, things like that really help.

Oh, I've been using Reddit a lot more and I might have seen you the last couple of weeks.

Yeah, we might have got into a fight on Reddit and not even known it.

Brilliant. Well, We're coming towards the end of the pod, uh, Tony, but I didn't know this. I have my last question, if that's okay. I have a newfound respect for you. I've respected you anyway, but the fact that you have built this business being a single dad— is it with 3 children?

3? Yeah, 3 children.

I'm like, amazing, well done to you, because that must be— that could not be easy. What's it like? What's it been like building a business and supporting children on your own? What's that kind of journey been like?

I mean, it's tough and it's draining, but like one thing that I've done is I've really tried to involve them in my business, right? So they're 11, 10, and 8. And I think that if they see what Dad does all day, like I help people find jobs, like I've got some of them with headsets on that, like, listen to my cold calls. And it's just like, that's so cool, right? And it's just part of it. It's like I, I'm trying to instill like, hey, entrepreneurship and the idea of like, hey, creating passive income and whatnot, because I think, you know, The idea of just a single 9-to-5 job is harder to come by, right? So just teaching them like, hey, you can create your own path and your own wealth and, you know, and things like that. So I think I always encourage people, you know, who close their home office doors is bring your kids in once in a while, let them see what you do, you get more buy-in from them as well.

I love that. What a fantastic way to bring up your kids and, uh, Yeah, it's interesting. I, uh, I think it's a really useful way, and, you know, I think— I'm sure your kids will thank you in, in 10, 15 years' time listening to all those cold calls. I'd be able to sell anyone.

Oh, eventually I'm gonna let them, like, dial for me and just see, like, who's gonna hang up on a 10-year-old?

I find if your kids just end up closing all your business for you.

Exactly. Tony, thank you so much.

This was honestly an absolute pleasure to, to to speak to you, get to know you, and so much value in this podcast. So mate, thank you for joining us, and thank you so much for your time.

Really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks guys. Thanks for having me on. I had a lot of fun.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.

Mm.