How to Bill $1,000,000 with a team of 4 Delivery Consultants

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Steve Sora. Steve specializes in tax and accountancy. At his previous company, Steve was hitting around $400,000 to $600,000 on a consistent basis. Then he was in charge of putting together a small but elite team of 180 recruiters, and very shortly after that, his billing skyrocketed to $1 million. Now Steve has set up his own company and plans to use those very same strategies to get him to a million once more. In today's episode, we're going to be focusing the conversation around how to build an elite team of 180 recruiters and the exact BD tactics that Steve used in order to build such high numbers. As usual, grab a cuppa or glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we?

Steve, thank you so much for coming on Top Biller's Toolkit. It's an absolute privilege to have you on today, mate. How are you doing?

And I'm doing well, and thank you very much for having me. The pleasure's mine. Appreciate it.

Awesome. I'm really looking forward to this one. I'm going to jump into the first question as always. What is the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Sure. My— so the— I want to answer it with two pieces. The number one software I'm using or technology is SourceWhale. I picked up SourceWhale maybe 3 or 4 months ago. It was recommended by my ATS. and it's allowed me to put together sequences, right? Um, where when we're targeting a prospect or a candidate, I can write the copy, start the sequence, and kind of set it and forget it, um, and wait for it to prompt me on what my next activity is. So that's been a great addition. Um, and then on the other piece, uh, I would tell you, I think there's a, an absolute mastering of the skill. Understanding the balance between persistence and too much persistence where you lose a prospect took me years to develop that, that feel and that understanding. And I think I'm, uh, that, that's an absolute advantage that I have as a tenured headhunter these days.

Awesome. Now we never—

we, we've talked about consistent and persistent follow-up to the point where you annoy the, the candidates or the clients, but we've never spoken about like, when is that— when is a good time to stop and how do you tell that sign? Steve, is there anything that you found? Is it as simple as like when you, when you discover they're getting a bit pissed off, you just stop? Or is there, is there a more subtle art to it?

Um, I, I think so. It usually, um, when somebody's irritated, um, I'll, I'll, you know, I can certainly take that hint. And, um, there's so many prospects out there. For an irritated prospect, I'll usually just work to find somebody who isn't. Um, but one thing I, I try to do is, um I try to make sure that I close out every lead, right? If I'm pursuing you as a candidate and you haven't responded after 5 or 6 communications, the last one says, timing must be wrong, we're moving on. And same thing for a client, uh, prospect as well. So I think closing out, making sure they know this kind of ends my sequence, maybe we'll see you next time, um, is, is sort of legitimizing.

Interesting.

So with every single client or candidate where you've done multiple follow-ups and you're coming to the end of it, you just do a closing line like, hey, I'm going to go now, just wanted to leave this here. What is your closing line out of interest, Steve?

Sure. So if it's a client target, a department leader, I will end that communication sequence with, you know, I'm assuming you've got the right pipeline or another vendor you're working with. I do as much working with department leaders as I do helping them build their teams. And if you ever want to talk career shop with me, I think I'm a good person for you to know. So I like to make sure the leaders know that they're also candidates, right?

That's cool.

That's clever.

And then with candidates, it's, hey, I appreciate timing is a big deal. It's kind of everything in, in career management. And so I just assume since I haven't heard the timing's wrong here today, uh, hopefully, uh, we'll have something, uh, applicable down the road. And, and, um, so that's how I close out the candidates.

Nice. I feel like having that offering is so— the offering of career coaching to to your clients as well, who can also be candidates. I feel like it's a super— it's— I feel like that, that could be— that's super valuable because it's like, um, I guess they've always— there's always another option for value to be given there as well. How often do people pick you up on that, Steve, on the career coaching side of things?

Sure, um, good question. I don't, uh, I don't have a trackable number to offer on that, but I'd say a, a It's a better percentage than just ending with, okay, buy now.

Yeah.

I have this other piece I can offer them. Mm-hmm. And 5 to 7 interactions a week are, hey, before I let you go, maybe you're not responding as a, as a lead because you'd rather be a candidate. Mm-hmm. And I, and I pick up a handful of those, uh, every week.

And a handful. Interesting.

Yeah. And we know in recruiting, right? 3 to 5 of those a week that instead of just exiting.

Yeah.

Become a relationship compounds and compounds and compounds.

Yeah, awesome.

So I'm guessing that finishing line where you say, hey, I'm going now, Steve, in the way that you just said, that picks up quite a bit of— that one line and that I'm leaving picks up quite a bit of prospects that would have otherwise probably been lost and just been sitting in the ether. Am I right in saying that?

That's, that's exactly right, yes.

Awesome, man. Love that.

Awesome. I want to go back to the time where you— because you were a solo biller, Steve, weren't you? And you said one of your best years was $800K, which is impressive. And then what I found really interesting is that you built a team around you, trained up this team, um, in a 180 style. And so you were like the big biller bringing in the business, and then you had these consultants around you, um, finding candidates. Um, what was that transition like? I'm really interested to hear more about that. What was that transition like, going from solo biller to then having a team?

Yeah. So, just on the solo piece, that $800,000 number was definitely an outlier. I lived in the $400,000 to $600,000 range without staff for maybe 5 or 7 years with the one spike to $800,000 that was related to tax reform happening in the U.S. and how it impacted my tax recruiting business. So, I was able to pop the lid off of a $400,000 to $500,000 range to hitting $1 million plus. Sort of because I had to. When COVID came, you know, those clients that maybe used us 1, 2, 3 times a year suddenly said, we need 1, 2, 3 this month and next month and the month after that too. And it was pure necessity. I had to, I wanted to, I guess, accommodate those clients. And the way to do that was to bring recruiters onto the team that could handle the sifting through the sand. The vetting, right, the first-line storytelling on the client's behalf. And so, I went from a solo biller with great work ethic to a leader with great work ethic, but my job changed. It became hiring this team, training them, teaching them, keeping them accountable. And I went from being able to do maybe 35 searches a year as a solo to managing 70 to 90 engagements a year with a team of 4 or 5, and we were able to keep clients happy. Nice.

Interesting. Um, I was thinking, why doesn't every recruiter do this? But then I was like, probably one of the, one of the issues is they can't feed their consultants with enough business. So what were you just— did you just have these like really big clients that were feeding you roles, Steve, or were you like, you know, were you cold calling every day to get that much business? What was that like?

Yeah, it was a lot of inbound because, you know, by the time COVID came, I had almost a decade in the industry targeting a lot of the same prospects. And a number of those companies either, you know, achieved significant private equity funding or maybe were spinning off a new business. There were a lot of events happening during that time that opened up, you know, plenty of new opportunities for us. So most of that was legacy clients that were coming to us. But yeah, it was like an event, right? Again, one of my newer clients from 2020, I just found right at that moment where they were just getting a massive funding from a PE and they needed to hire 50 people, most of which were close to what we do. To me, that's recruiting, is you're plugging away and plugging away and plugging away, and every once in a while you'll get a break from all of that plugging away you did. And, um, that again, that stretch after COVID was a culmination of all the work I had done leading to that opportunity.

Interesting.

Love that. I just want to go back to the team you had, Steve. So you had a team of 5, did you say, of 180? Recruiters basically helping you fill all these roles. So you went from solo to a team and you had to train them. Are there any specific systems or things you discovered from having a team of 180, um, recruiters below— or not below you, but working alongside you? Is there anything that you, you discovered through the years? You're like, ah, if we do this, this is going to maximize output, or hey, this is really screwing us up, let's change this? I'm just I'm just curious.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, we aimed for 50 communications with new candidates every week from the recruiters because we knew that was a big number. It took— it takes some discipline to even have a, a, whether it's a LinkedIn or a text or a call, to communicate with somebody and vet them for your opening. 50 is a big number.

Um, so 50 each consultant, sorry, Steve. Per consultant.

Per consultant.

Okay. Interesting.

Was the goal. Yeah.

And, and sorry, just to clarify, what was that metric?

Communications with—

Communications with a new potential prospect. So like, got it. Yeah. You know, you've got to hold yourself accountable. And my job was to hold them accountable. But, you know, you can't count somebody who you just talked to a week and a half ago the following week, right? Be true to yourself. Did I really push to get 50 new people into my influence. And if it's 50 high-quality people, uh, to me you can't miss 2 to 3 interviews scheduled from that 50, and then you're protected. Um, so that was the, the biggest KPI.

Interesting. Awesome. Yeah, that's, that's a, um, that's quite a— do they hit it often? Because that's quite a str— that's quite a big goal, isn't it?

Every day.

But you aim higher, right?

You, you—

I'm guessing you gave them a bigger goal because you knew they'd probably land at what, like 30 or 25 or something?

That's exactly right. You'd go for 50 and you might have a week with 25, but I thought it was relevant. If those were 25 high-quality people and you hit your 2 interviews from it, I'll take 25. But I think you might hit 4 or 5 interviews from 50 and you'll like your income better on that number. And so I think that's a mindset that any recruiter should approach is set an ambitious goal Yeah, because when you hit a big goal that isn't quite the one you set, you're usually still really happy camper.

Yeah, I feel like that's true with financial goals as well. It's like whatever you're trying to set, like go, go 20 to 30% above what you think you can do because you'll probably end up on the number that you orig— you know, the, the slightly lower number most likely, unless you're an absolute beast.

Just to go back to the 180 billers, because it's not something we've spoken a lot about Steve, um, so volume obviously played a part in, uh, efficiency and having an abundance of choice. Is there anything else you discovered from running a team of 180s that really made your job easier or allowed you to maximize output?

Yes, um, I, I, there were 3 things we, we did. Uh, one was the 50 communications. Number 2 was I never missed my weekly one-on-ones with each member on my team. Every person had that hour that they knew coming in, they should prepare questions for, strategize with me here, what's going on in their lives, because it's not just about getting these positions filled, but we're working together, we care about each other. And then the third thing I always talked about, and I think we're going to talk about this later, is the Friday coffee meeting and how everyone in the group came to rely on that meeting to wrap the week, gear up for the next one, collaborate on what we can do differently or better. Um, so those were some of the best practices I had in place.

Awesome, man. That's really cool.

Um, I'd love to jump, because this is like a juicy bit for me. This is a really juicy bit. I'd love to jump straight to it, Steve, and we can maybe come back to the consultants. Um, I love anything to do with business development, and you said that Sourcewell has been one of your tools amongst other things. And you've won 7 new clients without cold calling. And I'd love to go into the system and I'd love to just kind of share what it is. And so other people might be able to learn from it. Do you mind kind of going high level, Steve, what you do? And we can maybe ask more questions about it.

Yeah, totally. So Sourceway, I'll set up a 7-step campaign, whether it's a candidate or a client, and those steps will include calls, LinkedIn messages, LinkedIn connection requests. Emails. And so certainly my goal is to hit somebody from every one of those venues. Like, somebody who checks LinkedIn doesn't always look at LinkedIn Premium, right? Um, you might send them a message that they don't have the app on their phone, they're not seeing it. Um, so that's where persistence comes in. I like to hit every venue along the way, but I'll put together a 7-step sequence that takes about 2 to 3 weeks to execute, and it's copy that I'm writing. Right? It's, hey, your experience here is aligned with this client here, and I know tax better than any recruiter in the country. You might want to know me. Right? And then 4 days later, they get a different communication venue with an inspirational message about how career management can, you know, proactive career management can unlock financial upside. And then 3 days later, a different communication, something different. So it takes me usually 3 weeks to complete the sequence, but I write everything every morning. I come in and I have my list of 50 or 60 or 70 activities, and it's like a race to get them done. And I like that pace. Mm-hmm.

Interesting. Um, I'd love to break it down a little bit more, Steve. So focus— I know you do it in the client and the candidate side. If we could focus on the client side, that would be amazing. What are the steps that you have in place at the moment? Like, can you just tell us like Step 1, it's, you know, speccing in a candidate. Step 2, it's a call. Step 3, it's an email. Do you mind just talking us through those different steps?

Absolutely. So step 1, I'll usually do a phone call and I'll say, you know, it's something to the effect of, you're looking for this tax manager, just wrapped up a search with another client whose name you might recognize. Um, I'll be following up, uh, from here. Hope to hear from you, right? Like, I, I let them know in the first message that I'm coming after this. Then it's a written message. Usually second is a LinkedIn InMail because I think— I'm not committed to this train of thought, um, guys, but I think most people kind of assume you should go there before their email.

Um, and so it kind of makes sense, like etiquette kind of thing, right? Yeah, kind of makes sense. I get your thinking behind that.

I was a bulldozer when I was a young recruiter. Um, and that's That's not, that's not the approach that I take today.

But it also makes sense because— sorry to interrupt, Steve— but it's like your brand is on there, it's really easily accessible, they can see your content. So as like a first touch point, it makes sense that, you know— sorry, yeah, go ahead, mate.

Oh, and you might appreciate this. I picked this up from another firm here in the States. Um, I, I put at the bottom of every LinkedIn premium message I send, follow my company. Um, because we, we just know that there's, there's brand recognition and awareness when more and more people are engaging with Sandela Sova Search Partners. So, so that's a little piece that I've, I've been adding in and we've been able to gain more followers from it.

Awesome.

And then I come into my email sequencing with probably one more phone call, uh, involved. And then my last touch is a LinkedIn connection request that goes, must have found you at the wrong time. Um, I thought you might appreciate seeing kind of what we, what we stand for, what we're up to. Hope to connect. Thanks. Um, and I move on until the next time I would identify that person as a target.

Awesome. And, and just to go back to the email, what are you saying in that, in that email? So the— so you've done, you've done a call, done a LinkedIn message. What are you saying in that first email, if you got me asking, Steve? Not word for word, but roughly, like, what are you saying?

If I have a candidate, I always want to lead with a candidate. So my MPC is my, is my preferred approach. Not a resume, to be clear, not a redacted resume, but a bulleted, I just wrapped up a search with your talent competitor here. It led us to this person. Here's 3 things about them. Let me know if you want to talk about it. And I don't only target openings, to be clear. You know, I think as a real niche headhunter, you know, there's value in touching those potential leaders that don't have an opening. It, I think it enhances when they see your subject matter expertise, when they see you're not just an openings-driven headhunter. Usually it's MPC, and then just a sentence about who I was working with that led me to the MPC, right? I don't have a candidate, it's, again, I just wrapped up a search with them, and so I'm really well connected in this type of tax in your city, right?

Yeah.

If I don't have either of those, I lean on my expertise as a niche recruiter and say, I've been doing this for 14 years. We have a few connections in common that might offer some validation. And if I can't do one of those three, I probably just don't pursue the lead, guys.

Interesting. Yeah. I'm going to jump in with another question, but Sam, I feel like I've been taking—

No, no, go ahead.

Out of those three, Steve, I think I know the answer, but which one has the highest success rate out of those three different angles that you mentioned?

The NPC does.

NPC. Yeah. Interesting. With a job opening that you've seen, I'm guessing, or?

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. In fact, the interview I scheduled this morning was an NPC that I brought to the leader in February. Mm. Wow. Timing was wrong for them. Timing's wrong for the candidate. All of a sudden, the perfect guy comes available, and I play matchmaker today. And, you know, I don't think the opening's posted anymore, but it was a few months ago. Fortunately, you know, we, you know, we have the right information to bring this whole thing together. Um, so it usually, usually posted openings are going to be your, your best bet, uh, you know, exclusively target them.

Interesting, really interesting. And you said that the, which is interesting, the, the best response rate you're typically getting is between the third and the fifth touch point. Uh, so I'm guessing that's kind of an email. Do you get the best responses via email, do you think, Steve, or is it via like the call Like, when do you actually get people the biggest— when's the best, you know, what channel is the best, uh, response, do you think?

Um, I'm getting more LinkedIn response than ever before right now. I really—

interesting.

Yeah. Um, so, you know, I think the first two touches, especially if it's a new prospect that's never heard from you, it's almost, you know, the warm-up session, right? And then the meat of the game is played in the middle, and that, that LinkedIn message the email and maybe that second voicemail. So the middle part of my sequence has been most fruitful. Usually by the time I'm at the end of a sequence, it's just kind of getting ready to phase out and move to the next. But LinkedIn has been more successful than email lately because I don't think you can send— I guess you can send your LinkedIn emails to your spam, but you can't send LinkedIn to spam. You know what I mean? You can send your emails to spam.

So yeah.

Yeah, I've been leaning into LinkedIn and it's been a good transition from almost being purely email for all those years before.

Interesting. One thing that just came to mind, Steve, which I remember someone asking me on a post, and I think we've answered this before, but I'm just curious what your answer is. How do you approach an NPC? And then what are you saying to them in order to get their permission if you are getting their permission to send their details. I'm just curious how you set that up.

Such a good question, because as a younger recruiter, I can remember almost feel like I was begging them to let me do this. And it took me a few years to go, wait a minute, this is my time that I'm talking about investing and I only get 2000 hours to work. And if I work on behalf of the wrong NPC, I'm wasting time, right? So the flip in my head has been humbly, I think they're fortunate to have my representation instead of the other way around, right? So when I'm talking to candidates, I'm simply going, look, I would be happy to do this. Not please let me, but I'd be happy to do this. I know most of the leaders in the space that you play in, and I do like to talk about candidate frustrations with applications, right? This ad has 100 people that have applied to it and I'm qualified. Why didn't I get a call? Well, because you're not being represented or the person screening you doesn't recognize how uniquely valuable you are. That's where my value comes in. And so when I explain broker value, introductions to openings that aren't posted, you know, it seems to resonate with the candidates, but I've long believed it's as much about tone. You know, they should feel like they're in good hands with you. And if they don't, you've already lost.

Yeah, really interesting, man. And I'm curious because it sounds like you've been doing this for years, Steve, the NPC approach anyway. Is there anything you— there's obviously some NPCs that probably won't be worth your time or aren't as golden as you maybe anticipated, and some that are like probably more fruitful. Have you discovered what it is that makes a really good NPC apart from maybe their skills and qualifications? Is there anything else that people might miss?

Definitely. And especially in my, in my niche, tax and accounting, you know, it tends to be a more sort of introverted, conservative population of professionals. Right. And historically, the ones that have the technical subject matter expertise and the attention to detail and all those things, but also have a, frankly, a strong presence strong communication skills. Those aren't always, you know, they're common in recruiting, they're common in sales, they're common in plenty of disciplines, not as common in tax and accounting. So those people that have the skill and the personality are especially valuable. And so I would say communication skill is the one. And, you know, in my world, it's Big Four, right? If I can tell a leader I've got a Big Four person who's ready to exit, Um, I, I'm usually, uh, uh, in a pretty good spot leading off.

Nice, man. It's really valuable. And it's, it's also about understanding what your— what's going to make your clients tick. Like you said, Steve, it's like instantly Big Four. If you can grab that, then you're going to start a conversation of some description. Um, and I'm sure every industry has the equivalent.

Um, sorry guys, I'm getting a phone call and I would like to end.

My apologies. No worries.

No worries. What I, um, I feel like this— that you might not have any unique way of doing this, but is there any way for these jobs— because I feel like that's a really important part of the process, is, is spotting the jobs and/or finding places that, um, companies that are actually have, you know, live vacancies or people that they're hiring. Is there any way that you go about finding these, uh, Steve, that's, that's particularly unique or different, or is it kind of standard job boards? What's your feeling?

Yes. Um, so I belong to several different cranes publications throughout the United States that, um, send me daily newsletters about what's happening in their markets. So, I might find out before almost anybody else that a company in Denver just made an acquisition. And so, it's not even a recruiting, you know, I'm not asking for business necessarily, but whenever I see that, I'll message the CFO or the controller and say, "Hey, congrats on the acquisition. You might find I'm a valuable person to know if you do decide to hire," right? And so, I make sure that I'm networking as much as I'm business developing and candidate developing, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

So that's a big thing for me is following the markets that I'm in and what's happening there. Uh, you never want to be on your heels when you call somebody and they're like, didn't you know that we just, you know, bankrupted people?

Yeah.

Interesting. And, and what percentage of these, of the clients that you've won, do you think are from like articles and updates from Crane or compared to like speaking to the network and getting updates from candidates or, you know, other, other, other thought leaders?

I think maybe somewhere in the percentage of 15%, it's a small percentage to be clear. You know, the low-hanging fruit is you've got an opening and it's in my niche and I have a person and we go there. So that's the majority. Second to that is Somebody I met that liked my candidate maybe didn't have an opening but called me 3 months, 6 months later, you know, and not as much business comes from those. But I'm also early stages in adding that to my, you know, to my business development approach. And frankly, I've been— I'll do this for a quarter century, guys. So, you know, I want near-term wins, but I'm also kind of building a foundation that hopefully will pay off. For the next quarter century here.

Love that. Something just popped into my head, Steve. I'm focusing a lot on mindset at the moment, just me personally. So some of my questions are just, I'm more fascinated, and not more, but I'm fascinated into how people that have built substantial amounts of money, what mindset shifts they've had along the way. So I'm wondering, is there anything that can— that comes to mind when you think of mindset shifts that allowed you to propel yourself forward at maybe a, a bit more of a faster rate?

Sure, yes. Um, I, I would say, I mean, for me, um, I was fortunate to be born an optimist. I really was. And I, and I, and I don't know that you can be long-term successful in recruiting if you aren't an optimist. I really don't. It's a hard job if your starting point is this person's probably going to hang up on me, right? Yeah. And so, you know, you got to be ready to be ignored and rejected 199 times to get to the one and do it again and again and again. And so for me, you know, I certainly have 14 years. I'm conditioned to that. And the, the, the, my guiding light right now on, on mindset is, I'm in this not just for, again, you know, I don't wanna just bill, frankly. I want to create a legacy. Maybe my sons can take this business over, my daughter in the future. You know, maybe I can make a real true impact on a number of people's careers that didn't know what they wanted to do, but they found recruiting like I did, right? So, so I don't know that I'm directly answering your question other than to say, you know, what's, what's old is, is still very true in our field, which is, you know, you've got to take a lot of losses to get to a win. And fortunately, I've been through those trenches enough times that I don't struggle as much perhaps as other people do getting up today and saying this can be a good day. I generally, I genuinely believe most days Um, I, I can make something good happen, and, uh, I think you need to have that belief.

Awesome, man. Yeah, very powerful mindset to have. Love that.

I'd love to jump back to the team you've built, Steve, because I'm sure there's a lot of, uh, solo recruiters or small, um, you know, founders or co-founders who are sitting here and might want to duplicate or mimic what you did in the past, which is strong biller, hiring 3, 4, 5 consultants to help you fill these roles. How would, how would we— if you were to give advice on, you know, a solo biller listening to this right now who might want to do the same thing, what are the first steps? Like, how would— when do you know you're ready to hire that person? What are the steps to hiring? What are the steps to finding, finding that person? Do you mind just kind of giving some insights to how, how you would do that.

So one, I think you know you're ready when you can legitimately say, I'm saying no to quality searches, right? And you got to be honest with yourself about what a quality search is, um, which is hard. There's a whole, there's a whole game to that. I think one of the most valuable skills in recruiting, and especially this kind of setup, is understanding what a quality project looks like. Got too many then it's time to hire somebody, right? And certainly, you assume your cash flow is there if you have too many quality searches. That's when you know. And then when you have too many for the two of you, it's time to add the third person. And when you have too many for the third, it's time to add the fourth. But in this setup, there is a limit to how, you know, at some point I can't manage 150 intake meetings and close every deal, right? At some point, you need to delegate more. And I don't know if I'll ever get to that point. But one, gotta know that you have enough quality business. My opinion on hiring and training is not to hire existing recruiters. I know that a lot of recruiters want folks from within the industry.

That's interesting. Yeah, I was expecting that.

I like the idea of a blank canvas. Maybe it's just because it was my experience. I came in wide-eyed, you know, financially ambitious, a good communicator who didn't know what the heck to do with it. My degree is in political science, right?

Interesting.

And fortunately, my wife suggested— Ashley is her name— that I get into recruiting, and she was really right about that path for me, and the rest is kind of history. Um, I didn't come in with any preconceived notions, right? I was making whatever, $40,000, that 15 years ago working retail weekends and nights. And so just to, just to get into a 9 to 5— if recruiting is a 9 to 5— but just to get a 9 to 5 was inspiring for me, let alone to have big financial upside. So, I look for people that I can improve their work-life balance by removing them from maybe an untraditional setup like retail. And then, we unlock the upside of, well, maybe you don't want to just work till 5 today because you know you've got another commission if you work a little harder. But we've got to put that in their DNA through showing them results and training and developing. So that's, um, so that's my model, uh, and then, you know, again, it's, it's, it's open door, it's, it's one-on-ones weekly, it's, it's group meetings on Friday, and we just set up this little, little recruiting world where we all kind of speak the same niche language together and have this common goal. And it can be a really powerful thing when done right.

Interesting. That's really interesting. Go ahead, Sam. Sorry.

No, I'm just curious, uh, what was the biggest bottleneck that you had when hiring these, um, 180s, Steve?

Was—

did you bring them in and everything was kind of going smoothly and one thing was like really screwing up the process? Is there anything that comes up when I mention that?

Sure. Uh, yes. Uh, you— I made a hire against my better judgment one time, and it really rocked the boat with my established recruiters.

Interesting.

Wow. And so, you know, we could say the same thing for our clients, right? Like the wrong hire can be hard to recover from. So, so, and why did I do that? Because I moved with too much urgency. You know, I knew we needed somebody and I ignored some of the red flags and, and it, and it, it made for a challenging couple of months for everybody, for the team. So that was, that was the biggest bottleneck I can, I can think of. And then it's never fun when, like, again, it was a big COVID run with tons of volume. And when that starts to taper off and you have to start asking your people to put a little, you know, at least some business development hat on, right? Maybe spend a day this week doing something new. You know, you never want to hire somebody with one expectation, then ask them to do something different. But, you know, in a small business environment that, that that isn't so uncommon, you know?

Yeah, that's interesting. And just to go back to that wrong high, was that just like he had a— the wrong energy with the team and it was like rubbing off onto anyone, or was it something else? I'm just curious what the thing was.

It was, um, energy could be— it wasn't like a neg— like this person wasn't negative that came into the team, but they were, um, how do I say they were sort of disruptive, I guess, right? Like my team, my established team knew I've got to get this. I've got to have a great week. That's my job. It isn't to talk about what happened over the weekend. I mean, that's right. And they felt distracted. And I really appreciated the candor, especially of the, my vets back then to say, you know, I, um, I know you're trying to grow headcount and push this thing, but, uh, um, here's what's happening in the bullpen. And, um, so we made the change we had to make.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, it's funny how one, one chatterbox can disrupt to like all like years of or months of hard work, which is interesting. And, and I just want to like go back to the training because these— this is really interesting to me because these guys are and they're not recruiters, so they've got no prior experience recruiters, obviously smart and switched on. But like, one, how long does it— like, ramp-up time— how long does it take before they're self-sufficient, do you think? And then what are the most important things you're doing to get them proficient in what they're doing? Is it like— is it the weekly meetings? Is it the 50 interactions per day? Like, what is— maybe you could, um, answer that, Steve, if you don't mind.

Sure. So, um, For, for one thing, um, I'm trying to make sure I, I stay on task in answering your question.

Sorry, I kind of asked two questions there, so maybe let's, maybe let's start off with ramp-up time. Like, how long does it take, do you think, to get, to get a recruit— sorry, a, uh, yeah, a non-recruiter up to recruiting standards?

Yeah, my experience is less than a quarter, you know, because when you simplify like the hardest thing to do in recruiting is business development and then interview process management and brokering. I mean, you know, that to me is where I spend most of my nights, you know, thinking about my job. It's not really like, what's my candidate day look like tomorrow? So, you know, so one is just get really good at asking these 5 interview questions. And expanding on those 5. And you'll get better and better at vetting and you'll learn the niche along the way. So, you know, my expectation was they were on a search in their first 2 to 3 weeks and that they were looking at at least one hire by the end of 2 or 3 months into it. That's, you know, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then your second question, Ben, was What did the training look like?

Yeah. Or what was the, what was the most important thing in the training that had the biggest difference to their proficiency, to their ability to kind of start actually closing deals, do you think?

I'll go back to, you know, kind of that volume number. Like when, when I remember one of the people I hired, she made, she made a hire in 2 or 3 weeks, right when she started. And it wasn't because she was naturally gifted. It's because I took the time to sit down and do the research with her. And I went, if you can get that person on my schedule, I remember this moment, I'll give you $50 on Friday.

I love it.

Schedule that person with me, gave them the $50, and they got hired, right?

So good.

Yeah. Um, and, and so, you know, I like, I like to do some little incentives off the rip. Like, you don't need to place somebody this week, but you need to hit an ambitious number of communications, or you need to bring me 2 leads that you found by asking candidates where else they're interviewing, or just the little victories to get the serotonin going until they can celebrate the real wins with you celebrating hires. Um, so I have a pretty good ramp-up program on, um, mini goals, uh, along the way to the bigger goal.

I feel like mini goals are such a good idea. And you know what, one of my clients is doing that right now. Um, and if you're listening, you know who you are. Um, he, he did something really clever. It's really simple, but he's giving— I'm not sure if it's £50 or £100, I can't remember exactly— but he pays his consultants on calls booked with decision makers. So obviously, you know, deal, deals made, of course, but it's— I guess it's— it depends on the, the person who's doing it. But I thought that was really clever. And since he's done that, not surprisingly, his calls have gone through the roof, uh, because, you know, these guys— obviously there's probably some criteria as to what good looks like. Can't just be like any, any person on LinkedIn. But as long as it's within the target, as long as it's within the target, uh, customer, um, I feel like it's a really clever idea. It's like, what a great incentive to get your team to book more calls. Just pay them on every call booked. I feel like mini goals is a really good idea, Steve. And I'm guessing you saw that make a difference. Did you Did you— was that just a tester for this, this, um, individual consultant, or did you roll that out across your team as well?

That was part of the agreed-upon compensation during interviews even, was like, here's what our— here's the ramp-up period looks like and your mini goals. And then after a quarter, we're not going to be paying on mini goals because by then we should be placing people and be paying you on cash-in instead of the, the mini goals. But it, it, it makes, I think, for a healthier ramp-up for somebody when they—

I think so, yeah. It's like, it's like you don't— I feel like people who have really high dopamine hits, like me for sure, I like, I'm like, I need the— it's probably why I like business development because I, I'm obsessed with these little dopamine hits. It's like if you give me smaller, shorter goals, I'm really motivated to do it. Like if you ask me to wait for like a month to close a deal, you know, it's not going to be anywhere near as fun, if you know what I mean. So it's like, it's like now we're talking about that, like it's like how can you gamify the process for your consultants, um, to make it more interesting and give them mini rewards along the way so that they feel motivated to perform. I feel like it's just a really interesting topic to talk about.

Yeah, game is an awesome term. I've, I've, I, uh, I haven't heard it used often, but, uh, you know, I've got like— I'm— I don't have staff right now, but I've got my own accountability sheet, and I, and I like You know, I'll tell my, my wife and business partner Ashley, who's new to recruiting, on maybe a Friday at noon, I'm like, hey, if I can repeat the week I just had in 4 and a half days every week, we're gonna, we're gonna be happy campers. Um, and so, uh, you know, even myself, like, I'm with you, you know, gamify it and, um, simplify it.

And out of interest, um, Steve, what was the, uh, compensation for the 180 just on a regular basis? I'm just curious how you structured that. And what they, what they got?

So it was salary plus a percentage of revenues as their bonus. And I, and I, and I, I know some recruiters will pay like per hire, but in a, in a sort of holistic environment I created and I intend to create again, I didn't want recruiters necessarily bickering over like, well, I talked to the candidate 3 months ago and they were hired here. And I actually think that can prohibit collaboration. So, so we changed the comp. I made the decision to change the comp to where, you know, they knew what their bankable salary was. And we all were just rooting for this business line to be as profitable and successful as possible because they knew that they had a percentage coming right into their pocket, even if they didn't make the hire per se. And it inspired my veteran recruiters to become more of a leader to the more junior recruiters too. Right? Because, um, frankly, their percentage was a little higher since, um, their impact was a little greater, you know?

Yeah, interesting.

So am I right in saying, Steve, that so they had a, they had a base salary and then everyone was paid on the one hire that came through and it was like split amongst everyone?

But amongst the revenue, I think, Sam. So the overall revenue, percentage of the overall revenue. Yeah, that's really interesting.

So let's say we build a million Um, you know, so it was something like maybe a, a, a, a mid, uh, 5-figure salary plus maybe like 3 or 4 percentage of bonus, and all of a sudden you're, you're approaching a 6-figure compensation as a recruiter that doesn't have to do any of the business development.

Wow.

So it can be lucrative, of course.

Um, that's awesome, right?

Yeah.

And it Yeah, it's really cool, man. So you're getting paid really well and like harbors that feeling of everyone working towards the same goal instead of, as you said, like, were you experiencing that bickering, Steve? Is that why you changed it or were you seeing ahead? I'm just curious how that changed.

I wouldn't say I experienced bickering on the staff, but I did experience again kind of a lack of collaboration. Like if so-and-so is doing a search and 6 months prior, their, their teammate did it, did a similar search, right? Well, I'm too busy to come off my project and, and spend 20 minutes with them going, maybe you should try this person, right? Because I need to get my own fee over here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They would sit down together because they saw the end game was, was it was better for everybody. And obviously, as the business owner or the practice leader, um, it's better for me to have a team that puts their heads together instead of— yeah, operates in silos.

Really clever, man. I'm really fascinated by that, how just like a simple change in compensation completely changes the psychology of working together. And I can— yeah, it's really, really fascinating. Um, so Steve, I know, um, off the call you told us that LinkedIn is a big part of your strategy, specifically content. Um, how did you get into it? How did you discover the power of it? And, and if you could tell us a bit about your strategy, that would be amazing. 3 questions in 1. Apologies.

Yeah, for sure. So, so one, I've always been a pretty creative thinker and writer, and again, I just never had an outlet for it. I worked for a firm that was a little bit old school and didn't embrace the power of LinkedIn before. And so when we started, especially because we wanted to ramp up as fast as possible and get our name out there as much as possible, I started posting almost every day. Now, most of the posting I'll do is like industry relevant. Like I did something yesterday saying what's happening for the heads of tax and why the market's not as hot as it was 7 or 8 years ago. I'll do compensation updates for people, things like that. And then some of it's just, you know, here's a case study. Here's how we got this position filled. Asking for business. But I'm hoping somebody scrolls that and goes, yeah, he recruited one of the only local candidates in this tiny little market because he actually headhunts and he doesn't wait for applicants to come. Right. And sometimes it's even just like high-level stories from being a dad or a coach.

Cool.

Leadership-driven takeaways and insights. And so I do it almost every day. We're continuing to evolve in that regard. You'll notice if you go on my LinkedIn, we're starting to put our branding on some of what we're putting out instead of just writing it out. We're branding it when it goes out. And it's been really powerful. In only 6 or 7 months here at our new firm, I'm getting between candidates and clients, maybe maybe 5 to 7 inbound leads a week right now, people that I might have never talked to that are going, hey, can you place me? Or, hey, I saw this. It's more, you know, to be clear, it's more candidates than clients currently. But that wasn't happening years ago. You know, people who knew me would call me, but never would I hear, I liked your stuff. It resonated with me. So, it's been a really powerful thing. And I don't see signs of slowing down. And frankly, My favorite thing so far of being a firm owner with nobody to report to is I have, I have, there's no check on the creativity. Like I, yeah, I just, if I think of it, I record it and I try to write it down later. And, you know, what do I do when I walk the dog? I'm thinking about my next LinkedIn post, right? If I'm not a dad or working or being a good husband, I'm thinking about my next piece of content and it's just been an absolute joy, frankly.

Awesome. And how long have you been doing LinkedIn for your current business, Steve? You say, has it been since inception, since you started?

Since October 1st, 2024.

Cool. And this might be a tough question. Not everyone knows this, but do you know how much it's contributed to revenue, specifically content? I'm just curious if you, if you can, you might not know the exact figure, but maybe a ballpark. Number or percentage?

I think, I think you can point to maybe a $30,000 return on the content investment so far. Somebody that I had been pursuing via like a Sourcewail campaign 7 or 8 times, who I think reached out to me and said, oh, by the way, I'm thinking about a new opportunity, like didn't respond to my direct recruiting, but did respond and said, oh, that, that, that was a light bulb for me. And then we placed them. So, you know, my, I can only speculate, right? But I would speculate if it took me 12 years to get to a million-dollar billing number with the team the first time I came into headhunting, I think 2.0, we're going to get there in 4 or 5 in content. Will be a big part of that strategy.

I feel like the other thing, it's like you can, you can take those direct leads from content, but there's also the frustratingly, uh, obvious but reality of content. Um, you know, I feel like content is touching so many different people, and, you know, I feel like brand awareness is really annoying because you cannot track every metric, but you know from doing it, if you're reaching thousands of people, you know, you're getting more conversations or, you know, you want— when you get on the call with someone, you know, someone saying, oh, I saw you, I saw your content the other day, that was really good. And so it's making those cold conversations a little bit warmer. And it's like you can't really measure those things. It's frustrating being in a position like me and Sam are in because we see these incremental changes, but we cannot track every little thing. But what you do start to notice is you know, you're just being seen and known by more people, and it makes everything just a little bit easier, if you know what I mean. It makes every interaction just a little bit easier. So I just want to kind of mention that because it's probably, you know, I feel like there's direct stuff you can track, but then the stuff that you just cannot track but absolutely makes a difference, which you're probably seeing, I'm guessing. Steve?

Uh, Ben, totally. The hardest thing about starting a new business with a non-compete is of course not being able to touch all of the people that I did for all the— you know, I had to build a new network How do you build a network more quickly? Um, you know, the, the more I put out there that's quality, the, the more time somebody picks up and goes, oh, um, I remember you, right? You're not, not a cold outreach. You're, you're a known commodity. Uh, and, um, so, so we're pretty consistent about that for sure.

I'd love to finish up on your goals, um, Steve, because I find this interesting. Um, You, your goal is to hit $1.5 to $2 million with a lifestyle business. Um, and I think me and you, we had a brief chat on the pre-call about lifestyle and building a business around your lifestyle. Can you talk to me more about your goals, why you chose that figure and why you chose the model, and just tell me a little bit more about what you're aiming for?

Yeah. Um, so as you guys know, I started this firm with my wife and business partner Ashley almost 8 months ago now. And we live in a little walkable western suburb of Cleveland, Ohio. And as my kids have been getting older, they're 11, 10, and 7, almost 7 now, we started to go, we want to be more involved in our local community here, more involved in our kids' lives. And that was kind of the impetus to go, I know it's going to hurt to rip the Band-Aid off and go start anew from the ground up again. It was different when I was 25 and I did this the first time with no kids and no mortgage, right? It's a different ballgame now with 3 kids riding on this working. But we're just extremely confident, frankly, that companies will appreciate genuine consulting. Like, we're not going to build a boiler room environment where if you miss your KPIs this week, you know, you're on a on watch to maybe lose your job the next week. And so, when I say lifestyle, I mean I don't have intentions to work 70, 90-hour weeks and miss my kids' games. And work is a major part of my identity. Headhunter is a part of who I am, but coach of my kids' team and volunteer you know what I mean, is also a part of who I am. So, the goal is not to work in an environment where everybody's stressed out and feels like they need to be chained to their desk or else. The goal is, again, to create this holistic togetherness environment, lead with kindness and graciousness towards one another, subject matter expertise, right? And so, you know, I think as the years go by, you'll see this little this little office that I can walk or ride my bike to 10 minutes away with Cleveland Westsiders who like the idea of bringing their dog to work and walking to get a bite to lunch anywhere nearby, where they like how they're treated by the leaders and they like who they do it with. And that's the lifestyle. And I ultimately just decided we had to just start over and do it all over again to make it happen. We're, we're pretty pumped about where we're headed.

Awesome, man. Absolutely love that.

Awesome. Steve, I think we're going to end it here. Thank you so much for coming on today. We really appreciate it. Um, I feel like we've got lots of little nuggets throughout today in different areas and just a lovely conversation, mate. You've got a great energy, and it's always lovely to speak to people like you because the energy seeps through the screen, and I feel happier already, Steve. So thank you. Thank you so much, mate.

Same here, same here. I really enjoyed it, fellas.

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Peace and love.