How to Bill 300k in your first year of recruitment (This guy has the secrets)

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Craig Whiting. Craig has billed $10 million over his recruitment career, and even though nowadays he spends a huge portion of his time managing and training, he still manages to bill $850K consistently. Craig is one of the most knowledgeable recruiters I've met, and he's truly obsessed with understanding his niche and creating systems around what he's learned. What's even more impressive is the new recruits that join his company typically end up billing $300K in their first year and then $400K in their second year. This is one of those episodes you're going to want to listen to again and again, especially if you're a recruitment owner or a manager and you are training new recruiters. On today's episode, we're going to be delving into Craig's story, how he got into recruitment and how it changed his life. We're going to be covering some of his BD tactics that have made him millions, and he's going to be talking us through his strategy of how he trains new recruiters to allow them to hit such big numbers so consistently. As usual, guys, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hey Craig, how you doing, mate?

Yeah, good, good. How are you?

Very good.

Yeah, um, me and you had a pre-call, which I do with a lot of guests before coming on, and about 5 or 10 minutes into the call, I discovered you do jiu-jitsu, so you've gone up like 10 10 bars in my book. I just want to let you know, Craig. So, uh, and we'll probably speak about jiu-jitsu, but thank you for coming on, mate. You, uh, have a lot of wisdom. You've had a very colorful career in recruitment, and I want to pick your brain. So just appreciate you coming here today.

Yeah, no worries. Thanks, uh, thanks for having me.

Awesome.

We start the pod with this question, uh, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software? What would you say, Craig?

Mindset, 100%. Um, can-do versus can't-do, you know, find a problem or find a solution. Like, recruitment is an industry where you, you have to, you have to be able to invest in yourself but develop yourself. And if you have a mindset that's built on limiting belief and I just, I can't, I can't, I can't, then you can't. Um, I don't know, there's a book called Psycho-Cybernetics. I don't know if you've read it, but it's an awesome book. Um, I'd highly recommend reading it. Um, and, you know, effectively, your, your mindset is everything. You, you can't achieve something that you don't believe you can achieve. And I think with a lot of recruiters, um, that there's routes whereby the— once you're in and you realize it's quite a hard job and you get, you get through the, uh, oh yeah, I've got this job and I'm gonna earn a big bunch of money, you start to see a lot of the, the challenges that are ahead of you, and then a lot of people default to, I can't do it. And those are the people that unfortunately can't do it. Um, so I think mindset— and, and strategy is largely bred from mindset, right? Like, so, um, I think mindset, definitely.

It's amazing how many times we've had mindset. I think it's 80— no, probably 90% of the answers we get from every recruiter, and it makes sense. But kind of ties into the next question, and I'm sure we're going to learn more about how you developed your mindset, Craig, but you've said to me multiple times that recruitment has changed your life. Um, can you just tell me, or the guests, a bit about how it's done that and why it's done that? Uh, just, just for people that don't know your background or your story.

Yeah, I mean, what do you want, like the whole—

I mean, yeah, so Yeah, as much as kind of the— I guess from the conversation we had, you kind of started in construction, if I'm not mistaken, and then—

Yeah, so I mean, look, my background's very traditional, kind of working-class kind of background. We, we weren't, we weren't poor, poor, um, but we were very normal. Um, foreign holidays weren't a thing, and, you know, my brother's clothes were the clothes that I had just grown out of and all that sort of stuff. But my, my parents and then my immediate kind of social circle was very much— my dad's a builder, my, my mum worked in Marks Spencer's, their friends were a cleaner and a window fitter and an electrician and blah, blah, blah. So my worldview was very small and I kind of thought that's what everyone did. I had no comprehension of there's banks out there, like there's money over there somewhere. and this is what's going on. Um, you know, long story short, went to uni and, and, um, was lazy, you know, got into the student lifestyle, enjoyed it, um, and I didn't prioritize finding a job coming out of uni. So I ended up taking a job with Enterprise Rent-A-Car because a guy that I knew told me it was good, and he only said that because they gave him a referral fee. Um, so, so I joined, really, they're the only company I interviewed with, and I got this job and I was working at like a depot in Orpington and basically I was renting cars. And then part of Enterprise's sort of service offering is they'll pick you up, so they'll come to your house and they'll get you or they'll get you from a train station, they'll drive you back, you pick the car up, then you drive off. So I was sort of renting cars for like a week. Sometimes I'd be cleaning cars and I'd be sat there saying, well, like, I'm fairly intelligent, I've worked for a degree, I've got a good degree. I got a good grade and everything else. I'm sort of sat here now renting cars with a bunch of people that don't have degrees, you know, on a promise of like, well, in 7 years I might earn $70K or something like that. And whilst I never had a vision of this is what I want to be, I always had a vision of like financial success. I always wanted financial success. I just didn't know how I was going to find it or how I was going to get it, but I think that was just bred from— we didn't have a bunch of money, and some of my friends at school and stuff had nice holidays and nice cars. Their parents bought them cars and all this stuff. And, you know, um, it creates a little bit of a chip, right? So I remember at the end of the first week, it was a Friday, and, uh, I had to go and pick up this guy from Warpington train station and he— and then bring him back, rent him a car, and then off he would go. And he's got off the train, and I was 21, a week out of uni. This guy was 23, 24, smart suit. Well, look, just to me at the time, looked like someone who's very accomplished, head switched on, off the train from London. And I got talking to him, I said, what do you do? And he said, um, oh, I work in a— I think he works in finance, works in a bank. And he was renting a car because he was going away for a weekend with his girlfriend, and they were sort of driving up north or something like that. But This guy was like, well, that's like, I've got a degree, I've done this, like, that's what I should be doing. So I quit, um, went and got on job boards without an idea of what I was going to look for, and then saw an ad for recruitment. If you work hard, you can earn money. I was like, okay, well, I've grown up on building sites, that's hard work, like, I know I can work hard, um, and I'm willing to do it. Applied, and that turned out to be S3. So, oh cool, it was an internal recruiter that, that posted that. We had an interview, he put me in front of the brands, so I ended up interviewing with all the brands. And then, and then I, I was very kind of taken with Huxley as soon as I interviewed with them. Like, everything that I heard from them was, that's what I want. Um, I wanted to almost punish myself for the laziness of joining Enterprise and then ended up joining Huxley. And then that was it, I was in. And it was, you know, in hindsight now, the best, you know, the best thing I could have ever done.

Great.

What was it like? So you went from enterprise rent-a-car to then coming into this different world of recruitment. What was it like going into that world? Like, what, what were the, what were the things that immediately hit you? What were the changes? What were the lessons that you learned kind of going into recruitment?

So at the time I lived in Kent, and so my train every morning would go sort of past Greenwich and you'd see Canary Wharf. And I remember like the first day, the second day, even going for the interviews, seeing Canary Wharf was like, I'm, I'm where, where it is, you know. We were in the city, we were right by Cannon Street, like, I'm where it is, this is where I want to be. And I was super motivated. And I remember, so Lehman had just gone down, Bear Stearns, Northern Rock, the whole of Iceland, the whole of Greece. It's the financial crash. This is September 2008. So, so I've turned up to recruit tech into, into banks at a time when the banks are all going out of business. So I remember it was like my first day and they basically said the first month is grace, but you have to do a deal in your second month, otherwise we can't keep you.

Wow.

Right. Um, where, like, can I have a job? Oh no, there aren't any jobs. All the banks have gone, so your job is to find jobs, right? Okay, so I didn't know what any of this meant. And then on day 2, and then also in the first day, my team lead, um, a guy called Lee Ballin, who's like, was the most perfect person in the world for me to learn from, and he's awesome, um, he first day he showed me how to use a database in like the most basic version of a team leader can't be bothered to show someone how to use database. Day 2, I walked in and I had to do something, and, uh, I was like, oh Lee, I can't remember, can you show me how to do this again? And, and we were sat like, literally our legs were touching on the desk, and he looked at me with such a look of disgust, and he went, mate, I showed you this yesterday. Like, I'm not here to hold your hands. Figure it out. Wow. And that was my— I'm not at Enterprise anymore. I'm not. And this is, this is at this point I've maybe been out of uni for— I think with Enterprise at a week's notice. So I've been out of uni for 2 weeks and I was like, okay, we're not in Kansas anymore. Like, this is a serious place, which I, which is why I wanted to be there. But it, it really undermined, uh, sorry, it really underlined like the level of rigor that was expected. And then watching him, the urgency of how he worked, the turnover rate, the focus on getting things done, and then the expectation of all the knowledge— if you don't deliver, you're gone— was such a powerful driver because I was in this mindset of like, I've already made a mistake joining Enterprise. Through laziness. This guy has the answers because he was billing a lot of money, and he was still billing a lot of money even in the crisis. He was doing deals. Um, so my mindset was like, whatever he does, I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna do more of it, and I'm gonna do it better. Um, and yeah, that was, that was massive. That was a huge moment for me.

That sounds intense, man. Sounds really intense but cool at the same time. And, and you obviously Uh, because some people would feel that and then be drawn back from that intensity and be like, oh shit, this is gonna get really tough. But you obviously kind of leaned into it, which is interesting. Uh, and I'm sorry, we're gonna say—

well, my background was boxing. I boxed from 12 up to 19 to a fairly decent level, and that environment shaped the concept of— like, my, my boxing club was an old-school club It was run by these Southeast London guys that had a— they'd been there forever. It was a hard knocks gym, and you were expected to show up and fight and show up on weight and show up. If you walked in on a Monday and they said you were fighting on a Friday, you needed to be ready. And I think that— and it's similar to jiu-jitsu, right? Like the sports mindset of you rise to a challenge, um, but also the value is in the if you're gonna box, right, you want to work, you want to train in a tough environment against the best people, and it won't— it needs to be difficult. Otherwise, when you, when you actually fight, you're going to have some problems. And for me, that bled into recruitment and everything else. Like, I don't want an easy environment because I'm not going to be successful. So it was— it wasn't— I wasn't withdrawing from it. I was feeling like I, I know this world, and I know what the the concept of you're here to deliver is, and, and I'm, I'm ready to, to, to give it the time and the effort that it needs.

Really interesting. So you lean into the intensity. You— what, what have— what happens beyond that point for the, for the little things to click where you start to get it? I'm guessing you made your deal in the first, uh, in the second month and stayed there?

6 weeks.

6 weeks. Cool. Nice.

So I had some, uh, there's a guy I knew who was sort of a family friend that wasn't in tech hiring and stuff like that, but, um, he worked for Deutsche Bank and he was sort of loosely aligned to technology. So I called him, I was like, I've just got a job in this recruitment company and I'm doing technology and blah blah blah. I was like, can you help me? And he's like, no, I don't, I don't have anything to do with that. And I was like, okay. And he went, look, if I can give you any advice from just— I work with recruiters and, you know, for different things and they call me. When you go to people, know what you're talking about, particularly for tech recruitment. You know, what am I actually recruiting for here? What is this? Why does this person need a job? Like, why is this a thing? And then the crux of it was like lead pulling. So like my job was basically to put an ad— it sounds terrible now— put an ad online or send a mailshot advertising a fake job that didn't exist because there were no jobs. Hundreds of people would send a CV because everyone's out of work. Call through all of them, find someone who's got an interview that's actually real somewhere. That's within our market, try and find out that, and then go and try and win that job from X client. So my first, my first two deals were, were from a lead. So I pulled a lead with the London Stock Exchange and pitched them, and it turned out that they were struggling to fill quite an important role, and they ended up hiring two of my guys, my developers, which was pure, like pure luck. I had no idea what I was doing. And then the third deal I did was just from calling a manager at Bank of Tokyo and saying, hi, have you got any jobs? And I think maybe the word Huxley had some resonance with him and he was like, well, actually, yeah, I need a contractor. It was a BizTalk developer. So I called a guy on our database that was a BizTalk guy and basically I sort of pitched him this job and he was interested. And I said, look, The question that they're going to ask you in the interview is to explain biz talk as if you were talking to a 5-year-old. Can you do that? And he went, yeah, of course I can. I was like, right, okay, go. And he went, what now? And I went, well, yeah, because I can't test whether you know what you're talking about or not, and I've got to put you in front of this client. So like, if you can convince me, then at least know you can answer that question because I don't know anything. So he gave me the answer and I wrote everything down and then I learned it. And then I would pitch that to other developers like, I understand BizTalk as XYZ, you know, am I missing anything? And then I, people would want to then, because I'm giving a bit, I'd get a bit and then I'd get more knowledge and more knowledge. And then I just applied that to every time I ever worked a job. So I ended up quite quickly with this sort of encyclopedia of knowledge of like different skill sets and different tech and, you know, different mechanisms. But I always ask that question to a, to a candidate and And then that was my first 3 deals. And then I did, I did another 3 quite quickly with the stock exchange again. So my first 6 deals, 5 of them came from one lead and just land and expand. And then I was, you know, then I was sort of rolling.

For people that don't know, you've obviously— well, I say obviously— you've gone on to have a very successful recruitment career, Craig. You've billed £10 million throughout your career, which is a hefty number and something you should be very proud of. Um, we love to go straight into BD because that's kind of what we think anyway from what we've tested, what people love to hear about straight away, amongst other things. Um, during— because I know you're— you've taken more of a managerial role now, you still are a biller but more focused on your employees. At the height of your billing, um, in terms of when you're billing the most, what were your go-to BD strategies? What did you always fall back on that always managed to get success?

Was it a similar routine of speaking to candidates and getting information and following that, or did it, um, when, when I was building the most, it's probably like 2018, 2019, I didn't do any BD, um, because I'd done like the land and expand model and the clients were so good and so locked in and, um, I didn't, I didn't need to do any BD in those years. Um, still did some but it was very ad hoc. In terms of my experience of BD and what the best way to do it is and where I've had the most success, for me there's, there's like, there's 3 tiers. So number 1 is leads. The purpose of BD is to win clients and fill jobs, right? Um, if you know, if you know where roles are, okay, maybe there's more of a, of a fertile ground to go and you might call and get lucky, they need, they need another pair of hands or whatever. But I would use leads more as a steer of where tech stacks exist. So if I know that certain technology, so a certain company is hiring a certain role, I know that that's a tech stack that, that they hire for, that they're interested in. And I know that if I can talk to someone who's involved in that tech stack, I've got enough knowledge from sort of the investment at the beginning, if I can get on the phone to them, I'm going to be more credible than most other recruiters. So it's using leads, but not leads to go, oh, I need a job right now. It's leads to inform your pitching, and then you'll go on sort of a longer-term approach of trying to build a relationship with someone. Because if they've hired that role once, they're going to hire it again. So leads was always a mechanism for me. And then sometimes I'd get, I'd get lucky. But like, there's another client that we started working with maybe in 2017, we did, um, say we, yeah, we did, me and my business partner, the two of us did half a million pounds worth of business with them in 4 months. Um, and that was from a lead and we just got them at the right time. They were doing a massive scale and it was global and then it was done. And then we didn't, we did bits and bobs with them after that. But, but even then it was, it was, well, we didn't just call and go, I've seen you're hiring, It was going with a service offering based on we know what you do and what you hire for and we are operating much more in partnership with you because we've taken the time to map and matrix what you actually need rather than just see a, you know, a shiny thing and go, oh, I can feel this now and then you're never gonna hear from us again. And that's given us consistency of of work and consistency of approach because you operate then above the roles, you operate more from a, as a strategy partner. So, so leads were always a big part of it, um, as well as just one obviously wanting to know what's going on the market. The other part was then very targeted BD based on a USP. So our USP is we are very, very good at filling jobs with hedge funds in tech irrespective of the job. And the level of rigor in a hedge fund is so far higher than it is in 99% of other companies in the world that the value is not turning up and saying, I'm an expert in X recruitment. It's turning up saying, I understand the human fit that makes someone right for a hedge fund because your environments are unique. And that's our unique selling point.

And how about the third tier, mate? There was Leeds, BD, or USP, and the third tier. Did we, did we say third tier?

LinkedIn.

LinkedIn.

So connections, like if, if you're smart with your connections, your connections are people that you're interested in networking with. Um, not so much proactive BD, but positioning via posts, for example, of I understand hiring from a client perspective, which naturally when people see that and they're looking to hire, they're and potentially they're struggling with it, you're going to get a lot more inbound, um, you know, inbound clients wanting to talk. So LinkedIn is sort of a— it's something that I use very much for candidate attraction and sort of client attraction. Um, and the vast majority of my BD now in terms of just going to meet new people all comes from network and just connections and, you know, you using that because it takes a long time to build up. So you you might as well make the most of it.

Love that, mate. This is— this might be a difficult question to answer, but can you give us a, like, a run-through, a very high-level run-through of how you approach Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3? Just like, just a high-level overview of what you're actually doing if I was sitting over your shoulder and, and watching you. Yeah, trying to understand what you're doing with these 3 things. I know you've just given us a little insight, but but actual getting into a bit more of the nitty-gritty?

Yeah, so tier 3, the LinkedIn stuff, everything is generated from a conversation I've had with someone. So I will ask, if I'm on the phone to a candidate, I'll say, what are your biggest frustrations with recruiters? What's your biggest challenges in terms of finding a new job? If you wanted a new job, do you know how to find one? Like, what would you do? Um, ditto if it was a client, like, what are your biggest challenges with talent acquisition? What's your biggest bugbears with agencies? Because this stuff people will give you the answers to, but that will form the basis of the posts and the content because it's authentic rather than me assuming what somebody's bugbears are. I might as well just ask them and then like reference the genuine ones. So that's pretty simple. Like use the tools that you have. Every recruiter is going to be on the phone to candidates or clients all day long. If you take the time to ask and then you put the effort in to listen, they give you all the answers. Um, so that's pretty simple in terms of the, um, sort of more targeted outreach. That's very much based on like, um, building lists of like target companies. So we recruit for hedge funds, that's what we do. I don't want to speak to people in banks. I don't want to recruit for a bank. I've got no interest because it's not what we do. And if we did, it devalues our offering. We can't sell what we sell if we're also recruiting for a tier 2 investment bank because their hiring model and their matrix is completely different. Um, so identify your niche, break it into sub-niches. So in the buy side world, there are numerous multi-strats, quant funds, high-frequency funds, etc. And then look at how can you reference— like, how can you create a service offering that again is based on authenticity? Because you're gonna get found out quite quickly if it isn't. So if you have a track record of filling jobs in XYZ clients, you have a value to add to competitors of XYZ client. But it, so then the stuff that I'll do is like reference, well, what's the organization size? What's the common denominator with regard to how they hire? So Do they have like default academic preferences? Do they have default industry experience preferences? How's their tech stack? Like, how are they, how are they mapped across the board? Are they a Microsoft shop? Are they a Java shop? Are they a cloud shop? Are they all on-prem, etc., etc.? And then the pitch on that kind of mid-tier approach, which takes a lot of time because naturally, like, you can't just call someone, they go, oh yeah, brilliant, I've been desperately waiting for you to turn up. Like this, this is, this is very much a midterm approach because it's going to take 6, 12, 18 months, but it's a constant repetition of like, look, I know how this works. I don't need you to give me anything right now and I don't want anything right now. This is what we do. This is where we've had the value. And I know that this value will resonate with you. There will be a point in time where you need to go to market or where you go to market and the companies that you're working with aren't delivering. And at that point we just want to be in the conversation. And then normally people will come and they'll say, look, we're really struggling with this role, like, can you help us? So this has happened very recently. We just started working for quant funds. Their pain point was all the CVs they've seen, they've seen before. So the agencies are recycling the same profiles.

Was that in the initial email that you sent them? Was that one of the pain points that you mentioned by any chance, Greg?

Uh, what was the, uh, no. So, um, the pitch was very much around, again, the service offering. I don't, I don't want to assume what their pain points are.

Cool.

Because I don't know.

Yeah.

So the pitch is always based on the service offering, which is, this is what we do, this is who we do it for, and this is how we do it. These are the results. So our results in the last 2 years are we have a 93% offer-to-placement ratio. So 9.3 out of 10 people you offer that come via us will turn up. Um, this is very valuable for a hiring manager Because it takes a lot of time and effort to get someone to an offer. If they then don't take it, it's a big problem. The reason we have that offer to placement ratio is we only represent candidates to one client at a time. So we don't spread them across, which means we're honest brokers. Like we're working truly on behalf of the client and then it's in our interest to pull people out that aren't actually gonna take the job and aren't interested in the job. So that becomes much more valuable to a client of like, okay, so these people have a route whereby I'm gonna have a much more certainty in terms of my outcomes. And the reason they're gonna have it is because they're much more invested in the outcome rather than they're sending the same person to 7 different companies, which in our world works very well. It might not work in all of them. So that's part of it. The second part of it is we have zero instances of rebate ever.

Wow.

So of those 93% of people that turn up, 100% of them will stay.

Wow.

So what does that mean to a hiring manager? Well, again, it protects your time. It means you can make the time investment in hiring with some confidence that you're going to get an outcome from it that you want, and you're not going to be back on the phone in 3 months or 6 months or whatever. And then that also sells very well to talent acquisition because we're not precious about rebate clauses. We don't fight them on it because we've never needed it because we do our job. Um, so that's the mid-level bit. And then the leads bit obviously is just generated from candidates. But again, that's generated from like— the way I'm positioning it to people is it's in your interest for us to understand what's going on with you. Because if you're interviewing with 3 other companies right now at mid-stages and I'm trying to enter you into a process that you're genuinely interested in at first stage, I need to make the case to that client to catch up. Because otherwise you're going to get to a point where this might be the one you want, but they're 2 weeks behind. You got your other offers, you're now on a clock with those offers, but you're trying to hold out for the one you actually want. That's going to put you in a very, very difficult position of how do you stall it without losing everything, you know, or do you take a job and then live with the regret of not waiting for the one that you wanted. So It's very much in your interest for me to work with you on this, but to do that, I've got to turn up with some credibility. I can't say to the client, you need to hurry up. Why? Oh, there's other interviews. Okay, who are they with? I don't know. Where's the credibility? So it's not then give me a lead, give me a lead, give me a lead. It's like, you know, you've got to put yourself on the side of the candidate, which is like, well, this information is very valuable for you. And then the leads is not— I'm not trying to create competition for that person. It's just to go into the maps so we can start then pitching people on more of a longer term, you know, a longer term basis anyway, you know. That's so— I don't know, that's, that's, that's kind of the levels of it. But love it.

That's really interesting.

Yeah, love it.

What, um, do— is your business spread across those areas, or have you found one particular, uh, channel has been the most successful for you so far, Craig?

Uh, no, so we work across the, the, the trading tech world, um, with hedge funds of all variations, some big, some small, um, and then some kind of integrated service providers, so companies that provide like market infrastructure for hedge funds to trade and, and that sort of thing. But it's all, it's all benchmarked around that, that buy-side market because, um, again, that's, that's the USP. Like, that's, that's the specialism. Um, we don't want to devalue that because that, that's what we bring to the table. Um, and there are other agencies that bring different things to the table to different markets that's equally as valuable. Um, we don't go and play in those, those pools because we don't have that value add. We don't have the offering, and we don't want to have it.

Yeah, interesting.

I have to say, it's really rare And, and you must be— you're obviously doing something different to have success with just a service offering pitch. Normally it's not strong enough. And because I feel like a lot of recruiters, uh, it's probably where they start— I'm not saying this is what you're doing, but it's probably where a lot of recruiters start saying, this is, this is what we offer, this is what we do, these are our results. So have you noticed there's something when you get people on the phone, is there something that they've said that particularly resonates with your, with your message when you go into with the service offering route? Is it like, oh, that result really interested me, or your service offering is really unique in this area?

Is—

have you had any feedback from that particular— in that particular instance?

It all bleeds from, from knowledge. So we trade off credibility when I'm training new people and, and training teams. And this is where I think a lot of recruitment companies go wrong. We're not get on the phone, get on the phone, get on the phone you know, sales, sales, sales. We're learn, learn, learn. And we have very specific mechanisms that we use to structure that learning. But for me, if you have knowledge, you have credibility. If you have credibility, you can build a reputation. If you have then the ability to transmit that when you're talking to someone, That's, that's a smell. That's, uh, okay, this person knows what they're talking about. And again, in some markets it might, it might not be needed. Like, if you're recruiting for a company that hire 10,000 people a year and it's real transactional contract, whatever, you're going to need a different model, right? You're going to need to, you're going to need to pitch your USP based on your, your ability to operate at scale. And your flexibility in terms of like the resources you're willing to allocate. So that would be very different. But again, where does that come from? Understand the client. If you don't understand their needs, how do you know how to sell to it? So the need of your big transactional client is, let's take a big consultancy, for example. They've just won a huge global project. They need 250 bodies in 2 weeks. How do you sell to that client? You sell based on we have a team of 50 people, we are willing to allocate you 15 of those people exclusively. We have these tools at our disposal in terms of database. This is how many people we have a reach of. This is our LinkedIn presence. This is how this, this is how that. When you come to us with that project, you're going to get commitment and you're going to get response at scale because for you to fill 250 roles in 2 weeks, You need 1,000 CVs.

Yeah, really interesting.

I feel like you've become a master at looking at who you're selling to and creating an appealing offer. Craig, that's the— that's kind of what I'm getting from this, that you have learned how to craft offers that people can't ignore, which is really interesting.

Um, trick of it for any— for any recruiter is take yourself out of it. Don't think about deals. It's an irrelevance. So there's, um, uh, there's a guy called Greg Glassman who, uh, created CrossFit, and, uh, he, he turned it from nothing into like a billion-dollar business, whatever. And, um, I, I watched an interview that he did, and he said, if you chase money, the markets will laugh at you. If you chase excellence in everything you do, the markets will reward you with money. And the more you can take the end out of it Recruitment is a process, right? Recruitment is get a client, get a job, understand it, understand how to find people that are right for that job, understand how to communicate that job in a way that's going to be credible and is going to make sense, and then understand how to manage the, the, the human emotion of an interview process. That, that's recruitment, irrespective of who you recruit for, because you're dealing with humans. Humans aren't motivated by anything other than their own emotions. So when you look at like evaluating a need on the client side, you're not, you're not evaluating a client, you're evaluating, well, the decision maker, what their needs. So in your, in your big transactional client scenario of we need 250 bodies in 2 weeks. Well, why? Well, we've pitched for this project and if we win it, I'm going to get a massive bonus. And if we lose it, I'm going to lose that massive bonus and I'm going to lose political capital and we're probably never going to get a shot with this client again. That's why it's important. So how do you sell to that? Well, you sell based on commitment and ability to deliver. If you go to hedge funds, completely different. So hedge fund people, they, their value is time. They're super busy. Like these people are super, they're very exceptional at what they do. They're very, very busy. They're also used to an environment where people know how to get stuff done. And don't ask lots of questions. So if you turn up and say, give me a job and then I'm gonna ask you 15,000 questions about that job, it's not gonna go very well. If you turn up and say, I know what you recruit for, I know what your tech stack is, I know what your hiring preferences are because I've done the work. I work with these companies and I've delivered this. I can give you this, this of this many people you offer, this many will turn up, this many will 100% of them will stay. And that's done off the basis of 16 years of doing this. I want to work with you at a macro level to support you in achieving your strategic hiring goals. And then same on the candidate side. Why do people take jobs? It's not, it's all based on need, human need. What's the emotional reason? And it's badged up as money or progression or whatever, but it isn't. It's never that. It's I want to impress the father-in-law. Or the rates have gone up and I can't afford my mortgage, or there's a need underneath it. I wanna— I want to progress and earn more money, but I don't want to be a manager, and I'm in a company where the only way I can progress and earn more money is to become a manager. Well, okay, why do you not want to be a manager? I think it will devalue my technical skill set and I won't enjoy it as much. I don't think I'll survive in that job because I won't enjoy it. I won't be as good at it. I think I'll end up on the market and I'll be out of work. So I want to prioritize being hands-on, but I also want to earn more money. Well, if you steer that person towards a company that can craft a progression route where they're not going to be pushed into management, they can stay hands-on, but they can still keep moving forward financially, you're taking away a lot of the reasons why that person is not going to take the job. But you're not selling it on money, you're not selling it on the job itself, you're selling it on, you know, you can come in and do a good job. This company will reward you for doing that good job. But they won't take you away from doing the job that you enjoy. And that's so much more powerful. But as a recruiter, it's about take yourself out of it. I'm not trying to do a deal, I'm trying to find a fit. I'm trying to add value to my client by providing a candidate that feel like that client is, is a, is an environment that they will do very well in. And if the candidate doesn't feel like that, we'll take them out. Like, we pull people out all the time, even when clients want them. And just say, look, this guy's not— it's not right. Like, it's not the right fit because he wants to progress into being a manager and you don't offer— you don't offer that. So it all comes down to that.

Love it. We might go a bit over, um, Craig. Are you okay to go past 2 PM?

Cool.

Just because there's so much gold here, mate. I just want to go back to the offering in the email quickly, the, the kind of pitch that you craft to your clients or potential clients. How long is that typically? Is it like a whole page? Is it like 5 lines? Or like, what's the length of that? Is that of interest?

Like, uh, hi, basic capability statement, some bullet points, can we talk?

Cool. So it's quite quick.

They don't have to— like, in our world, they don't have the time. They're not going to read it. TL;DR, right? So yeah, it's very much like, look, there's a reason I'm contacting you, and it's this. This is what we have. This is what it delivers. This is why I think you'll be interested in it. Can we speak, or can we grab a coffee, or, you know, whatever? And look, I'm not like God's gift to copywriting and I get 100% response to any of this stuff. It takes time, it takes follow-ups on the phone, it takes more email, all this sort of stuff. But that's not driven by it's not valuable, it's driven by they didn't read it because they don't have time. Normally, once— I think for any recruiter, right, Um, everyone, everyone's a specialist in everything. Like, everyone, everyone, yeah, I'm a specialist in that, I'm a specialist in that, yeah, I do this, I do that. There's a very small percentage of people that actually in recruitment are actually any good and actually know what they're doing. Because you— let's take tech recruitment, for example. You take someone off the street, you're now a tech recruiter. Here's a bunch of tech people, go and talk to them about tech. It's like learning French for 10 minutes and then being chucked in a Parisian cafe and being told, speak French. You can't do it. So where's the credibility? So it all boils down to like the lowest common denominator of, of like just lie to people, sales 101, you know, I've got to do a deal at all costs. You might be successful every now and then, but it doesn't breed consistency of billing. Like, where's the value? As a recruiter, you have to be asking yourself, where's my value? Like, where do I add value? Because there's a reason that— so 2023, PwC did a study of Fortune 500 CEOs. 93% of them said talent acquisition was their number one challenge. And that they need to completely change their approach, right? So 500 biggest companies in the world are saying talent acquisition is an issue. People need recruiters and recruiters add value, but recruiters don't look at themselves like they add value. They look at themselves in a way of how can I just do deals quickly to keep my manager happy? And I blame the managers and the companies for this because they beat the excitement and the passion out of out of trainees, you know, and it goes. And that's why so many people leave the industry so quickly. And it's a shame because it's a fantastic industry. But what you need to look at is, like, you've got to understand, at the end of it all, you're talking about someone's job. Like, how much time did you put into deliberating whether you wanted your job or not? How much uncertainty was there? How many people did you go and talk to and ask for a second opinion? You know, this is a big deal. This is, this is people's lives, this is their families. So you have to put them at the front of it. You can't put yourself at the front of it. And if you could, if you can break your process into steps and you just focus on doing those steps as, as with the providing the most value and the most excellently as possible, you'll do deals without even thinking about doing deals. Love that, Craig.

I want to get into this chunk, which is kind of feeding off nicely from what you just spoke about. You have, um, a bit of a reputation in your company for bringing new recruits in and getting them to bill in quite silly numbers quite quickly. So you had, uh, two, two that I'm thinking about that in year one billed $300K— correct me if I'm wrong in any of those numbers— year one billed $300K, year two both billed $400K. Now that's almost unheard of for new recruits to come in and bill $300K on their first year. And then 400K on the second year. What is— what, what are you doing differently from— because that's abnormal from all the people me and Ben have spoke to, very abnormal. What are you doing differently to 99% of other recruitment companies, do you think?

Um, so when we hire people, they don't have a pressure on them to do deals. They have a, they have a pressure on them to build knowledge, and they're tested on, on the knowledge that they build. Interesting. So that's really interesting. Training that we do is very practical. They're on the phones pretty much straight away. They're not on the phones trying to find candidates. They're on the phone trying to learn about the market. And we have a module of training which is called Your Place in the World. And it's basically me on like a Miro board drawing out in these really like terrible diagrams the world of recruitment, right? Um, so as a, as a recruiter, you're in the middle. There's a bunch of other recruiters in there, but you can't see them. You don't know what they're doing. You don't know where they are. There's a bunch of candidates, but you don't know how many there are. You don't know what they're doing. You don't know where they're moving. You don't know what's going on with them. There's a bunch of clients. Sometimes candidates can be clients and vice versa. You don't know what they're doing. You don't know what's going on, right? And then interwoven through all of this stuff is what I call the nuance, but effectively it's the way your market works. So in our market, technology, there's lots of jargon. There's lots of tech that means different tech. There's lots of, uh, if someone describes himself as a software engineer, that's the same as a software developer, could be the same as a UI developer, could be the same as a full-stack developer, could be the same as a bunch of other things. If someone's a platform engineer, they might be a systems engineer and an infrastructure engineer, and it goes on and on and on, right? And then you actually get into the tech where someone might, you might be looking for a C# developer and you might be looking at a.NET developer and you don't realize they're pretty much the same thing. And it's so layered that it's impossible. And this I'd imagine would be applicable to any market. You can't just jump yourself in the middle of it and have any, like, any idea about any of this stuff. You just can't do it. So our focus from the beginning is learn what your place in the world is, learn what is your marketplace, who are the players and what's within those shops, what tech is where, who hires what, who does what, where do you learn this stuff? Candidates, conversation with people about, and then the big thing that gets, we hammer is active listening. So, so many people ask a question, Um, I saw this study once. So how do you know if you're empathetic, right? So how do you know if you're somebody who has empathy? And the answer that they gave was the other person continues to speak. So most people ask a question and then they sit there and they're just waiting for their turn to talk again, right? If you're a recruiter, it's the other way around. You should be talking like 30% of the time. So we put a lot of emphasis on question structures. So open questions that leading into direct questions that leads into closed questions with a goal of building knowledge. And then we back it up with a bunch of training around how to properly like, like qualify companies and roles and build matrices and understand tech and all this sort of stuff. But for the guys, in my opinion, with that pressure off and the freedom to learn, but also accountability against the learning. They're very slow in the first few months of bidding, like, and that's completely expected and normal. And then we see a huge, like, uplift normally from 3 to 6 months. So some people don't do a deal for 6 months and then they'll do 6 deals in 6 weeks. And without deal values because it's buy side, that's, that's a big amount of billing. So yeah, it's a different approach. We're not selling, we're not targeting them on sales, output, KPIs. We have a few basic things that we get into over time, which is more of just an indicator of where are we. But what they're assessed against is learning and knowledge, which for me is everything.

I absolutely love, you're the first person to say it like this. Craig. And it's really fascinating when me and Sam learn something completely new because we've spoken to so many top billers and spoken to so many recruiters now. And to speak to someone who has such a different mindset around training and recruitment, it's fascinating. And yeah, I just— I think your, your employees are very lucky to have you as a mentor because it sounds like— yeah, I'm not trying to blow smoke, but genuinely I'm really impressed with your mindset and your worldview of, of recruitment and how you're teaching people. I think it's, uh, I think it's amazing.

I've got a caveat with work ethic, perseverance, resilience. If they don't have that, yeah, EQ, IQ. Like, there's, um, there's a guy who I'm a big fan of called James Blackwell who owns, um, The Agency Blueprint, and, um, I'm a big fan of James's, and he talks a lot about in his hiring, um, he looks for conscientiousness and then batteries included. That's his two, two sort of steers. And batteries included to me means work ethic, perseverance, problem solving, all this sort of stuff. Without that, all of my shit is not going to do anything.

I just want to go back to your ethos around training because I just think it's so different to how other recruitment companies view it. And I think anyone listening who is a recruitment owner who's looking to train should just listen to this again and again. And the fact that you know, like 99% of other companies, the first expectation is to go in as quickly as possible and start billing. You know, that is what most expectations are. But you are basically saying, hey guys, still bill, but the main expectation is learn your market. And I think you said to me, Craig, that, um, you— they're almost expected not to do a deal in the first 4 to 6 months or something. If they do, great, but if they don't— am I right in saying that? They was kind of Yeah, and you're giving them the time to learn the market. I just think that's so— it's so— it's such a brilliant way to bring people in, um, to train them to learn a market as opposed to just jump in and, and do a deal. So I just want to say that again because I think it's so powerful and so important. Do you— just a quick one—

do you think you would still be able to do that? And this is not to— I still think everything you're doing is incredible. Do you still think you'd be able to do that if your deal sizes weren't so large? Like, if there was a company out there and their average deal size was like $10K, would that still be viable, do you think, financially, that, that way of working?

Um, well, yeah, because if you're hiring a recruiter, I'm assuming you're hiring them with an expectation that they're going to be with you for more than a year. So do you care if their first year is not great, if their second year is spectacular? Interesting. So I don't agree in any market with you have to do a deal tomorrow because I just, I just think where, like, as a business owner, where are you going to get the most value from the team? Well, firstly, you want consistent delivery. You want the delivery to be evolving year on year. And then you want those people to progress either into principals that are like monster builders or into leaders themselves. But if you never give them the platform to learn to learn, yet you expect them to teach. Like, so there's probably some variance in a sense of the reason it's 6 months in our world is because of the complexity of the roles, the ambiguity of the roles, but also the level of the people that we're trying to deal with. Yeah. If you're not credible, you don't get in the door, you don't get a shot. There's probably other markets that are much more transactional where you can do deals much quicker. But again, no market is harder or easier than any other. And this is, this is a— in my— I had some down years mid-part of my career where I was pretty average and pretty rubbish, and, and, and, and I fell into the trap that a lot of people do. I just blamed everyone else. Oh, it's not my fault, he's got an easy market. Like, ultra transactional markets, you're going to do smaller deals probably a lot quicker, but You're not going to be able to do that over time without solidifying a knowledge base of how your market works and developing a reputation and building credibility. And you're still going to be in the, in the battle of hit and hope, fingers crossed, got offer, don't know if I can close it or not. To me, that's not where a recruiter should be. Like, really early on, I got pissed off with sending CVs that got rejected and I didn't understand why. And I wanted, like, because I It's about efficiency. If I'm going to speak to 5 people and send 3 of them, I want all 3 of them to get interviewed because I've spent the time doing the work. What's the point of doing the work to not get the outcome? If I manage someone for a process for a month or a week or a day, it's still an investment of time as a recruiter. How can you swallow losing it and go, oh well, it's not my fault? Like, so I think in any market, and that, that 6 months or 4 months or 3 months or 3 days or whatever will, will change. But you've got to give people the breathing room to, to, to understand like their place in their, in their market and like how does it work and who are you talking to? Because it's, it's only going to compound over time and they're only going to become more successful. Otherwise you're going to end up with people that can do deals sometimes and can't do deals other times and can't teach people and can't train people and probably don't enjoy it very much. And they're constantly on the hamster wheel. And then you put all the time into them anyway, and then 18 months later they leave. Like, what's the point?

100%. So the success of these billers, the fact that they can come in year 1, do 300, year 2, do 400, and then go on to do amazing things— from, from what you said, is the time to give them training of understanding their knowledge, their place in the world. Is there anything else that you think— is, is that the main catalyst, do you think, uh, Craig? Is that the biggest thing, like dedicate time and attention to learning your market and everything else will kind of fall into place? Or is there any other little needles, do you think?

Yeah, like, I don't want to take anything away from those guys either because they're brilliant. Like, it's— this is not me as I am the guru of training recruiters. This is— they're really, really good and they've got the raw materials that, that are needed, the stuff that we spoke about, and they're willing to put the work in. So where a lot of people I think fall down is they go, yeah, great, go and learn. Okay, where'd you start? So the thing we do try and give them is a very structured methodology of how do you learn. So there's a lot of stuff we do that's very regimented around something. So something I call CV stripping is a big one. Role qualification is huge and literally breaking job spec down word by word.

Sorry, I just want to interrupt. No, there was a bit of There was a bit of lag, so I don't think the audience will hear this, but you said that one of the most important things you do is CV stripping. And what you'll do is have the CV open on one screen, Perplexity, which is a search engine, AI search engine, if I'm not mistaken.

Imagine if Google Chrome and GPT had a baby. That's Perplexity.

Cool. And what you're doing is looking through the CV, and if there's ever a word you don't understand, you take that word and put it into Perplexity. Is that what you said?

For job specs, yes. Cool. So we will read a job spec word by word, line by line, and then at the end of every sentence say, what are they trying to tell us? Like, what's the need? Who are they looking to hire? And then based on this sentence, what skills would this person need to have? And then if there's skills required or whatever that we don't know what they are, we'll then go on perplexity and say, what is this? It's da da da da da. Okay, why is it used by a company like this? Where's the value? So we're trying to build knowledge. On the CV side, um, CV stripping is, um, there's 3 tenets to it. So we try and strip CVs aligned to jobs that we're working. So you find a CV that's really good. So firstly, you assess the CV against, well, why is this really good? Why is this candidate very, very good for this job? So someone who maybe has been interviewed because you're always going to get the same jobs over time. So we're trying to build like a candidate avatar. So whenever we get this job, we know what the right profile looks like. So we're going through, and the thing I love is the summaries at the top on job specs and CVs, because that's what people want to tell you. You say to someone, write a CV, the first 3 or 4 lines is what they are or what they want. The rest of it's what they think they need to write. It's the same with job specs. The need is always in the first bit. You don't need anything else really. They'll tell you everything you need to know, or they'll tell you enough that you can craft your questions. So we use it for an assessment perspective and look at like, why is this person right? And then we have touchpoints, academics, you know, technical skill, where have they worked, what have they done within those organizations, what are their achievements. We try and build these candidate avatars by skill set. Second one is to, to develop an understanding of why does X company hire someone like this? Like, what do they actually do? So if you have a developer and it's like, I work in, I work in risk and I build like Monte Carlo simulations and, and I work across FRTB. Okay, great. Stop. What's Monte Carlo? Like, why is a Monte Carlo simulation used by a hedge fund? What's FRTB? Why is it important? So, so that's like step 2 is build a functional map because then when you're on the phone to a client, that's credibility because you know what they're talking about. When you're on the phone going through a job spec, I see you mentioned this. My understanding of that is this. We've got candidates doing this and this. You've asked for someone who's got FRTB experience. Would you consider someone that's got a lot of experience in Monte Carlo simulation, for example, but haven't specifically done FRTB? Even if the answer is no, how credible do you sound? But all you've done is basically taken it from someone's CV where they've defined that those are basically the same things because they're in risk. So again, it's credibility, credibility. And I find if you ingest something and then speak it, you're gonna remember it. So everything is about, we have a concept of knowledge bubbles. So every time you speak to someone, you take a piece of knowledge from them. And then you go and give it to someone else, and then you get a piece back and you go and give it to someone else. So you're a bubble in the middle of a big bunch of bubbles, and you're the center, you're the broker of all of this knowledge because you'll just learn so much by, by consist— by the rep. It's just reps, right? It's just reps. You know, you guys will know, right? Like how many times you, you break down and go through the fundamentals of a kimura. When you're rolling, you'll hit a kimura. Right? But you do it slowly. You do it lots and lots of times. And it's the same with this. You, you take a piece of knowledge, you speak it, you speak it, you speak it, you break it down, you refine it, and then when you need to hit it, you can hit it. So that's the second bit. And then the third bit is tech. So what a lot of people do on their CVs is they'll give a big skill summary. So they'll say, uh, I have got 15 years C# experience, and then they'll list a bunch of stuff. asp.net wpf, wcf, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're defining that for you as relevant to C sharp. So now you can build search strings if you, if you do a lot of proactive searching where normally your search might be C sharp, and then you might get A bunch of Java people and some C Sharp people. And you've got a huge amount of people to go through. This is very inefficient. You'll spend a lot of time looking at people that aren't relevant. You can refine that search by adding in a bunch of other keywords as an and, C# and, but you don't have to actually work out why they're relevant or if they're relevant. Someone who knows has already defined that for you. And we do it once a week, takes about an hour for different skill sets depending on what jobs we've got. Everyone does it. So within a month, you've got a lot of content specific to where you recruit, what you recruit for. And the translation of that is, number one, credibility. When you're on the phone to people, you know what you're talking about a lot more and you understand it more. You can, you can be in knowledge bubble. Number two, when you're targeting candidates and evaluating candidates, it's so much faster and so much more efficient for you to find the right people because you have more basis of knowledge to, to find them and to, to reference them against. So that, that's the CV stripping.

Awesome. I feel like We have had just an absolute master session of— yeah, masterclass in so many areas. Um, I'm not sure how many more questions, um, you have, Sam, and not so much time you have, Craig, as well, but I would love to touch upon one thing if we can, because there's very few recruiters that we speak to that have managed to get inbound on LinkedIn. I don't doubt for a second that you're getting inbound because of the amount of knowledge you have about your clients, your candidates, Craig, but if you were teaching a consultant or recruiter if you were to give them some tips as to what you're doing, high level, your strategy in terms of what you're saying, how you're saying it to get more inbound, could you give us some tips on that, do you think?

Uh, just make it authentic. Don't make it up. Go and talk to people. Like, talk to people, ask some open questions, and then listen. And then there's your content because Every, every, every potential candidate out there has had a good experience with an agency and a bad experience. Every potential manager has a way that for everyone needs, um, we, we, we're an industry that underpins any profession you can think of— cleaners, lorry drivers, lawyers, bankers, CEOs— the machines that move those markets are recruiters. Everyone's interested. Put any post on LinkedIn about recruitment that's marginally contentious. Write a post and say, I think people should work in the office 5 days a week, and watch the level of like tribalism Right? So, so everyone's interested in recruitment. Where I think recruiters go wrong in terms of content is they, they create content based on what they think people think. Your, your job as a recruiter is talk to people, talk to candidates, talk to clients. If you focus on doing deals, you don't learn anything, so you're always having to guess. But if you say to someone, you've got quite a lot of experience, what do you think of agencies? What do you think the best way for an agency to engage with you is? Like, what did you like about my method? Because we're on the phone, so you wanted to talk about it. What didn't you like? What could we do better? What's most important to you when you deal with an agency? And the same on the client side, what's most important to you? Like, what can I do for you that's gonna add the most amount of value? And then use that to create your content. And you guys do it really well, right? You're like, I spoke to someone who has done this and then that resonates with people. Same thing. I spoke to someone that said this, this and this is where agencies are going wrong. I think this. What do you think? Everyone has an opinion on agencies. And then my inbound, so I have a lot of experience, so I do have a reputation and this is harder for people in the earlier stages of their career because I got a lot of connections and a lot of followers and the stuff that I'm representing in terms of jobs and knowledge is typically considered to be fairly credible. But if you're a junior person, I think where the mistake a lot of people make is They're like throwing content out that's not backed up by genuine knowledge and authenticity. And you can smell, you can just, you can see through it. So again, for me, it goes back to invest in your knowledge and invest in yourself. How do you do that? Well, speak to people and learn, and then give it to other people. The net result of that is you're going to get more connections, you're going to speak to more people, you're going to get a better network. And then when you post stuff that's authentically derived from those networks, it's going to resonate with that network because they are the network. And you're gonna get more engagement. People engage with stuff that resonates with them. Yeah, so love that. That's my perspective on it. I'm not a content specialist though, so no, but it doesn't—

I don't think you need to be. You are a master at psychology, and that's what content is, isn't it? That's what it is. It's understanding your market and just regurgitating and/or finding ways to speak to— speak back to the market what you learn.

So really, well, I only want to talk to people that are in the hedge fund trading technology world. I don't want to talk to recruiters like on LinkedIn. I don't want to talk to people that work in software as a service companies, you know. So I think you've got to know who you're speaking to. And again, maybe that's where some people go wrong, is they, they're, they're creating content without a vision of who am I trying to talk to here, who am I trying to engage with, like who's this for. So, so for me, I, I know who I want to talk to— people in this world. Well, the easiest way for me to talk to them in a way that's going to resonate with them is to actually physically talk to them about stuff and listen to what they have to say. And then I can then sort of regurgitate that online, which is gonna, which is gonna create, you know, more of a, um, a bunch of people that, that are similar that want to talk to me. Uh, but it's— I go back to the same things. It's credibility, right? It's knowledge. You can't be credible if you don't have knowledge. There's a reason they say knowledge is power. You just can't. And without credibility, it's hard to really achieve much.

Craig, thank you so much for today, mate. Honestly, I absolutely loved it. Whenever I feel excited at the end of a pod, I know it's done its job. There were so many knowledge bombs in there. I feel like we need to bring you back on just to delve into— I could, I could continue speaking to you for the next couple hours.

You've got so much knowledge.

But honestly, mate, thank you so much for coming on, and I hope everyone listening enjoyed, um, this podcast as much as me and Ben did. So thank you for your time, mate.

Yeah, no, thanks for having me. I appreciate it, and I'm, you know, more than happy to come back. I, I, I like talking about this stuff.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.