How to book calls with CTO's (and other executives) From a $958,000 Biller

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is James Holder, and guys, James's story is both inspiring and refreshingly relatable. For over a decade— I'm talking 10 years plus— James considered himself the most average recruiter imaginable, coasting along with no particular standout results. But then something changed. He had a moment of realization he could do more. What then What then followed was an intense 8-month period where James pushed himself to the absolute limit, and as a result, he billed $958,000. With already 6 months gone of this year, James has already hit $500,000 and he's firmly on track to hit a million by the end of the year. In this episode, James is going to break down his exact BD strategies, including how he consistently gets high-level CTOs on the phone. He's going to be telling us the mindset and routine shift that propelled him from mediocrity to being a top 1% biller. And finally, James is going to be sharing with us a few really clever ways that he uses ChatGPT to learn about new markets and open up new opportunities. Guys, I absolutely loved this episode. So did Ben. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did. As usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hey James, how are you, my friend?

Very good, Sam. How are you?

Very good. I spotted you on another podcast. Um, I saw the numbers you were hitting, I saw how you articulated yourself, and I just thought you sounded like a cool guy and we should definitely have you on the pod. So thank you for coming today, mate. And I know you got up extra early, it's like 7 AM in the US where you are, so we really appreciate you getting up so early to do the pod.

No problem. Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.

Awesome, man. So we always start the pod with the same question, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software? What would you say, James?

So I think there's a couple of things, but I think the main one is definitely mindset. I think, um, you know, as I told you before we started recording, I think having a good work ethic beats talent every day of the year. And I think what we've tried to instill in our business and what I've installed— I've got posters all around my house, um, just about mindset, about resilience and things like that. And I I think that's what's probably got me to where I am today, is because at a point in my career I didn't have the mindset. Um, I was, you know, here, there, and everywhere. And whereas now I'm laser focused, and I think that's what's made me achieve what I've achieved. Wicked, man.

That is the most common answer we get, not surprisingly, because mindset is like 80% of business, isn't it? You can have all the strategies and all the tools and all the, all the gear, but if your mindset isn't, uh, plugged in, then it's pretty much pointless. And I'm curious, you said mindset wasn't your strong point or you didn't, you know, it wasn't an asset at one point. What was the point when it started to shift and how did it shift?

Out of interest, it was probably coming to America, to be honest with you. Yeah, I think because I was, you know, thousands of miles away from friends, family and the rest of it, I kind of was on my own a little bit. And so I had no choice. I had no safety net. I had no, no one, no one that I knew out here. I was in a lot of debt. And I built up in the UK, and I kind of thought, you know what, this is just ridiculous. You know, I'm almost hitting 30 back then, and I had to change something, and it was just like a light bulb that went off my head. And ever since then, um, my life has completely changed.

Wow, that's so crazy, man. So it was that kind of, uh, sink or swim moment of leaving the UK, going to the US, not having anyone, and just being like, shit, I've got to make this work now? That was the biggest—

Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Interesting. And how has your life changed now, James? I'm just— I know we're going to get into the transformation, but like going from debt to then moving to the US, like how do you think it's changed?

If we were to like, um, well, I mean, I can afford things now that I could never have dreamed I would have been able to afford when I was in my early 20s. Money is obviously a massive part of it. I'm earning fairly decent money, but I think it just gives you choices. And I think what I've got now is a really strict routine where I work hard you know, 8, 9 hours a day, but then it allows me to have the choices on the weekend to do whatever I want and plan for the future. And I, you know, I put something on LinkedIn the other day is that we, we work to live, not live to work. And I think now what I do is just work hard between the hours of my hours, and then I'm done, and that's it. And I don't think about work, and I just try and move on and, and enjoy my life.

That's interesting. That's quite a different response from a lot of top billers, which is kind of like this— well, to be fair, I think some of them are, when they get to a more experienced stage, definitely more balanced. But I think I definitely hear more of like this obsessive work, work is kind of everything mode, whereas your, your mindset sounds to be a little bit different, which I think is really interesting. Have you always had that mentality, James, or has that just been recently?

To be honest with you, so this is what I think really sort of kicked me over the edge, is that last— at the beginning of this year, my work told me that I had a work addiction, and they sent me off to New York for a week, um, with no emails, nothing. It basically— like I've been fired. Um, I had nothing. Um, so, and that really, like, I was, you know, I was very, getting very, very agitated. I'm a bit of a control freak, so I like everything in my, in my control. And then after that point, you know, I walked around Central Park, um, I walked all the way around New York, and it just made me think about that work isn't everything. It's not the be-all and end-all. Um, whilst it, you know, it does give you the choices of earning lots of money and things like that, it kind of made me think that You know, I don't want to die an early grave, you know, and I think I don't want to drive myself into the ground. And now I've just got a really good balance of having a mindset that I know I can get everything done in my day. And then once that's done, if I've had a good day— if I've had a bad day, I'll continue working, of course. Um, but normally I finish on a good note.

So lovely, man.

And that's—

I've never, um, I mean, I've never heard of a company saying you're working too much. Like, because typically they're like, yeah, you know, keep on going, you're making lots of money. Like, And I know, uh, companies are, are always looking out— well, the good ones anyway— looking out for their employees. But, but I'd never heard of that intervention, like, hey, you're working too much. So what caused that? Was it starting— was your work starting to suffer because you were working too much? Did they see it? I'm just curious, like, how that came about.

No, it was the complete opposite. My work was doing the best it's ever done. I, I wrote up £200 grand worth of business in, in January, um, and my work— I basically did not have a day off from the, the day I started at Signify in April until January 1st of this year. The only day I had off was Christmas Day. So I worked every single day and then I came back in January and I just looked like a white sheet. I had nothing to give. I remember our first kickoff meeting, I just couldn't really give any advice or anything because I was just completely burnt out.

Wow.

And then they just had to intervene. You know, I did 958 grand from April till December and I pushed myself and pushed myself and there was 3 grand in it between me and second place. In the top billers' sheet. If I hadn't worked that hard, I wouldn't have achieved top biller. So yeah, wow.

Yeah, that's crazy, man. So you went all out, you had a big goal, a big, uh, thing to accomplish, and it sounds like you did it, which is amazing. But it kind of pushed you over the edge, so you needed to take a step back and just find a new sustainable routine, I guess.

100%. Yeah, I think now I'm, I'm still bidding at the rate that I am, but now I've just become a lot more disciplined with my time.

Yeah. Do you think you needed to go through that intense period to get to where you are now? Like, are you still glad you went through that, uh, James, or would you have done it a different way? I'm just curious.

Yeah, 100%. I think for me, I, I, I mean, I'm either all in or all out, and I just, I need to be focused, you know. My mind just wanders off different places, so my calendar is back to back to back to back to back because I've already mentioned on a few other podcasts that I have to be regimented, otherwise my mind just wanders. I won't, I won't do anything, I'll just sit there. So If I, if my, if I know my calendar is back to back to back, that means I have to be on calls all the time, and that way my mind can never switch off. So, um, but now rather than it running till 9 o'clock at night, I finish it at a certain point, that's done, that I'm out, I don't work.

Cool, man. And when you said every day, do you mean like literally weekends as well, like Monday? Oh yeah, Sunday, that's so cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, I was working Saturday, Sunday from 8 AM till 7 PM, Saturday, Sunday. I mean My relationship suffered, to be honest with you, as a result, um, with my partner. And, um, but then at the time I was just very self-absorbed and I wanted to go. I'd never been top biller before. I remember my first recruitment job, I was sat on the balcony in Prague after hitting a holiday incentive, and my MD came up to me. And back then it was very ruthless, recruitment was, was very different as it was to it back then. And he just said to me, he looked at me in the eyes, he said, you'll never be top biller. Ever in your career.

Crazy.

Um, so I proved it wrong. Good.

Yeah, that's a great story.

Why did he say that, James? Like, why do you think he said it in that way?

And because I think I was, I was very junior, um, I was, and I was a bit of a party boy, I'll be honest. Um, I like to drink and I didn't take my work seriously. Um, as long as I could afford a Friday night out, that's all that really mattered. So at the time, he probably was right. Um, but I've matured since then and Those words have always stuck in my mind. I actually sent him an email after I had the top. I've got this, this award here. It's like this, this one here. It's this globe. And I sent him a picture of it and he replied saying, at least my reverse psychology worked then. So I love that. That's so cool.

What a great story. And I'm just curious, like, what Because to go to be that obsessive for 6 months is— takes a lot of drive, determination, and obsession. Was that— is—

do you think that's just how your brain is programmed and you prefer—

like, you were thriving off that adrenaline? Or was there a, like, a something driving you underneath? Did you want to prove someone wrong? Was it about hitting? Was it about the money? Like, I'm just curious what was driving you to be that obsessed during that point in time.

That's a great question. So I think initially Um, proving people wrong was— is always my, my thing, right? So throughout my whole career, I've always been told I had the most potential but never achieved it. And that's the worst thing that can— you can be told, because it's there but you've never achieved it, right? And I think what I wanted to do first of all was prove my father wrong about, you know, I've talked about this on another podcast, is that he didn't believe recruitment was out right for me because of my work ethic at the time. At school, I was very lazy. Um, I just didn't care about school, academic stuff, which is boring to me. Um, I like to be the class clown and be a joker and just be a talker. Um, and then I think this time around, I've been in recruitment 12 years, it was my last chance saloon. I've been non-billing for 2 years at a previous business, and I thought, you know what, I can do this. There's— I'm now at the age where it's do or die. Um, I hated non-billing, I thought it was boring. Um, you're in— you're also a cost if you're non-billing. You're not an asset to the business, so you're probably one of the first ones to leave if the business ever slightly goes downhill. Um, and I just wanted to prove to myself more than anything that I could be top biller. And to do it in April and give the others 4 months leeway to try and beat me, um, and I come in and just destroy them all, was quite satisfactory. I love that.

It's such a great— and, um, we're going to move on to tactics soon. I'm just fascinated by your story. Yeah, I didn't expect to like be on your story for this long, but it's really Interesting. How— so like, you, you've proved people— you've proved yourself right in the sense that you can do it. Um, do you feel like there's been a little shift because you've hit that number? You're like, okay, you know, James, if you want to do something, you can bloody do it now. Has that given you a new sense of confidence or a new sense of belief? Like, what has that done for you, do you think?

Yeah, for sure. I think for me now, I've, I've signed up, um, as a, as a boxer in the United States now. Um, so I like— so I've got my license for boxing in the US. They're very regulated and things like that. So Now I'm, I'm in a, in a camp where I'm, I'm training. There's no alcohol, my diet's very religious, and I want to have my first like pro fight in January. So yeah, it's just working towards that, setting new goals, setting new achievements. It also helps in work as well because as we all know in recruitment you can have some absolutely terrible days, and there's nothing better than hitting a punch bag as hard as you can to release some of that energy. So, um, yeah, it works out well for me as well.

Love that. Awesome. That's so cool. Sounds like quite a few transformations have come from that Really intense, painful period. Um, cool. Let's get into the strategies now because this is the— I say the juicy stuff, that was still, that was still really cool, but you've surpassed £500K invoiced for the year so far. We are just going into July now. What's been your go-to BD method, James? There might be a few, there might be one. I'm just curious, um, what has contributed to that amount of money to this point.

Yeah, so I think, um, for the— from this year, there's been obviously been a lot of clients that have come back to me from last year, um, which has obviously helped. Um, but in terms of new clients, I would say, you know, for me, the basics in recruitment is so, so key. So getting leads from candidates, finding out which companies are hiring the most. I use LinkedIn Recruiter a lot, Search Insights, which allows you to see who's hired the most within your skill set within a particular area. And then my target client list. So I just go after those. I speak to the candidates those, find out pains, problems, challenges, um, and then go to the, the hiring manager, normally the top person. I, I never ever go for a software engineering manager because all the objections I get is my boss will say no, I need to speak to HR. I don't want to be dealing with that. I want to be dealing with the C-suite people that have the power to tell HR to go do one, essentially, if they don't want— if they like me. So, um, that's always been my strategy in the US. It's worked, um, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it sort of situation. So, um, yeah, I've just kept doing the same thing, and I don't like changing strategies if one strategy is working because I'm walking into the unknown, right? So kind of just making sure that I'm speaking to candidates, getting good information, and then going top down and then trying to break in that way.

Love that, man. So let's unpack that because, um, we've interviewed quite a few million-dollar billers, and that strategy, it seems to be the most consistent one that comes up, James, which is like find good candidates, speak to candidates, get information, and then go, go with that information armed to a warm conversation. Um, you work in tech, if I'm not mistaken, is it? Yeah. And so what candidates are you looking to speak to, um, that are going to give you the golden information, do you think?

So it kind of changes. So I'm very— you— I wouldn't say unique, but like, I don't really have a niche. Um, so I wouldn't say I'm a specialist in Java, for example.

Okay.

I move with the times, so I try and find out what is hot right now, right? So for example, AI and machine learning is hot right now, so naturally I'm going to be focusing on that. Salesforce is another thing that I'm really focusing on right now because it's a big market, there's a lot of contractors. Remember, I'm always looking for contract work if I'm going— so like project-based work, right? So, um, uh, an ERP implementation can take anywhere between 6 to 12 months. So what I'm looking for is Salesforce people who are hiring a lot of Salesforce people because that means there's a project happening that I can assist. Yeah, whether that be from an architecting, architecting the solution, all the way down to admin. So what I try and do is break into projects and then do team builds rather than just place one. Um, so now I have a situation where I don't just have, you know, 30 runners at 30 different companies. I have 30 runners at 6 different companies because I've built out the teams.

Interesting. That's so mad. So that's really fascinating. So you don't really specialize in a niche, you're more finding what's hot. and then you're placing teams of people into companies. So sorry, what were you going to say, James?

Yeah, yeah, exactly that.

Okay, cool, awesome.

So my brain— there's a number of different questions that come off the back of that, but let's just imagine AI is hot. I don't know, I mean, if you haven't been working in AI niche, you probably— I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, James— you probably don't know a huge amount about it. So where do you start from your position? AI is cool, want to place some AI candidates, like who am I speaking to? Where do I even start with that?

So for me, I always like LinkedIn Jobs. It's one of the most underrated things I've ever— I think I've ever— I've realized this this year, by the way. This is new to me. So every, every Sunday I will go on LinkedIn Jobs and I will use ChatGPT to see— ChatGPT. So I'll copy and paste the first 10 pages of LinkedIn Jobs in, um, the US in technology, right? And I'll say what skill sets come up the most out of those 10 pages. Um, so they're the most recently posted jobs, and they'll tell me exactly which skill sets have been— are I've been posted the most. That tells me that that's the skill set that's in demand right now. So my niche changes every— pretty much every month, really. And then, and then I speak to candidates in that niche as much as I can, um, and then I'm an expert— well, expert, um, within, yeah, a day or two. And then I can just send in hot candidates.

That's so crazy, man.

Wow. Yeah, it's unique.

Yeah, no, it's really interesting. So So that's interesting. So, so, and do you ever— because, you know, when you're always changing niche, you're essentially, um, going after a new candidate every single month. So how are you consistently speaking to new candidates in new niches every single month and getting a good— like, how are you doing that?

Out of interest, James, I'm probably doing it the hard way, to be honest. I'm not, I'm not making life easy for me. Um, it's a lot of chop and change, but that's the way my brain works, is that I, that when I get bored quite easily, right? So if I'm on the same thing time and time and time again, um, I just lose interest. So me learning different technologies has allowed me now to jump on a call with a CTO, and if he says I need a Salesforce dev or I need a BA or I need a.NET, my brain knows all of those technologies because I've worked them before. So it's actually allowed me to have better conversations with senior people because I've worked all those different technologies before now, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

So yeah, yeah, um, it's— I've done it the hard way, but, um, it's working.

So yeah, no, mate, it sounds really fascinating. And sorry, just to go back to the candidate thing, because this is what I'm— this is what's going around in my head, James. Like, sure, the, the— your, your, your process essentially rides off speaking to candidates, doesn't it? It starts with speaking to good candidates and, and fishing information from them. But, but then I'm thinking, if you're changing niche every month, how are you contacting these candidates every month in a new niche? Is it like, is it just as easy as sending them a LinkedIn message and saying, hey, I want to— oh, it's literally— so I might be overthinking it then.

Yeah, yeah, literally it's just that. It's just that. It's, it's making sure— so I have templates for pretty much every technology out there, um, and then at the end, at the beginning of every month, I'll ping out messages, um, to candidates and be honest with them as well. Like, I'm not necessarily saying I have a job for them. Like, I'm not a big believer in trying to lie to people. I'm honest. So I'm saying, look, this is a new niche for me. And technology people love talking about tech, and they love, they love educating people as well. So if I say, look, I'm starting this new market, can we jump on and talk about it? Because it's quite hot right now. They'll give me 30 minutes, and after 30 minutes, you know, they'll, they'll do 99% of the talking, and I'll just be writing notes like crazy.

So yeah, so you're kind of playing into that. Sorry, Ben, did you have a question?

Yeah, I'm just going to say, and what kind of— let's say you've got this candidate on the, on the phone, um, James, what are the key pieces of information you're trying to get from this person in order to arm you with the information to go to someone at the top?

Yeah, that's a great question, Ben. I think, I think the key thing what I need to look at is where are they struggling, so where can I add value? Like, the key thing for me, and what I always press to my team, is where can we add value, where can we be different to other vendors. Like, I don't want to be on a PSL. I don't want to be part of a 5, um, agency list where they send their jobs to. I don't want to be on a portal. I don't want to be on any of those things. I want to be a value add. So I want to be asking candidates throughout the questions, you know, um, what's the most thing— what's the biggest thing you're struggling on the project? What's the biggest skill gap you've got on your project right now? Where would a person fit in that could add value to your project? All those open-ended questions that then allows me to sell a solution to a hiring manager. I don't want to be like every other recruiter out there that sends a job, if you know what I mean, and tries to get— and tries to get leads. Of course we have to do that as well, but I'm trying to find out about that particular business. Where can I come in and showcase value? That's the key thing for me. Um, before I just did the normal recruitment thing and, and said, you know, you know, where are you interviewing, chase those leads, try and fill them, if not move on to the next one. But now I'm very specific about a business that I'm focusing on and, and then I can speak to multiple people within that business, and then I then realize, okay, they need a Salesforce developer of that particular piece of work. I'm going to go and sell that person.

Really interesting. And have you found that particular types of problems are more likely to win you business or less likely? Is there a common theme between those types of problems?

How do you mean exactly?

Like, for example, have you found that maybe a particular type of candidate is you know, maybe, maybe a company would say, hey, you know, you'll ask them what's the biggest problem you're struggling with at the moment? And they're like, oh, this, this type of candidate I'm really struggling with. Have you found that there's a particular pain point that kind of guarantees you or increases the chances of you getting that business, if that makes sense?

That's a great question. Yeah. So, so I think it goes back to the LinkedIn jobs, right? It goes back to the skill sets that are in demand the most. So I kind of know already what the most in-demand skill set is. So let's say Netflix are hiring a lot of AI machine learning people. I'm going to speak to every— or try and speak to every AI machine learning person within Netflix and understand what it is they're doing to try and, you know, why are they looking for so many people? Now, obviously, AI is massive. It's the talk of the town at the moment, right? So there's obviously a good reason as to why they're doing it. But why are they struggling? You know, why have they gone direct? Because normally Netflix work with agencies. So why are they now suddenly going direct? What's the issue there? And I think what I try and do is just use the leverage It's easy. I basically sell back to the candidate what the— what's in the job description. So I say, look, I've already got this skill set of X, Y, and Z, and I know this because Netflix have just posted this. Um, and it's— I'm just reading back to them what I've got. They say, yeah, my manager would definitely be interested in that. I don't go to their manager. I go to try— I try and reach— Netflix is probably a bad example. I can't speak to the CTO of Netflix, but you know, you know what I mean. Those SME type of companies.

Yeah, interesting.

Really interesting, man. And so the— I'm interested in your, your, like, the conversation you— I might— again, I could be overthinking this, uh, James, but if, like, with the candidate you're going in with the mindset of saying, hey, I'm new to this niche, can you tell me more about it? But with a CTO, how are you positioning yourself? Because you don't— you're not— you don't— you probably don't know a huge amount about the niche because you just started it like a couple months ago, unless you have like a photographic memory, James, which you could do. but like, how are you positioning, uh, yourself on the call with the CTO? Is it about being open and honest and saying, hey, I don't know this niche that well, but I've got a great candidate? Or is it— what, how do you— how are you positioning yourself on the call?

So another great question. I, I'm reading back to them the job description. So, um, the job description they posted, I've said, look, um, you don't know me, I don't know you, but I name drop the competitors. Competitor name drop is so powerful in this market. Um, I name drop actual human beings that I've worked with before. Again, very, very powerful because this market is very incestuous. Industries, particularly technology in the US, um, and that gives me a lot of credibility. And what also helps is my LinkedIn as well. If you look at my LinkedIn, I've had many CTOs, CIOs, CEOs give me recommendations, um, and leaders look at that, right? So going in straight away, I say, look, the first things first, all you need to do is check me out on LinkedIn to know that I'm a legit person, I'm good at what I do. And then I essentially say that I've got this skill set, and I read them the job description, and they go, that's exactly what we need. The hard bit is then trying to find the candidate because I don't really know the candidate process. So at the moment now I've got— I'm building a delivery team within our business that I win the business, I then pass over to delivery because I'm not sure how many people have told you this before, but I hate speaking to candidates as little as possible. I love doing BD, so that's what I try and do then.

Really interesting, man. I find it fascinating, James. I don't know why I'm sticking on the subject that you like you just, you start a new niche every month and you're still okay speaking to like CTOs at the highest level. And I feel like a lot of that is just confidence going in.

Is that—

is your mindset like, I can do this? Like, you're lucky to work with— like, in a positive way? I'm just— because a lot of people wouldn't do that or wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. So I'm just interested of your mind.

Yeah, 100%. So the other day I was on a call with a client that needed 6 developers, and he was skirting around I asked him, what are the 3 non-negotiables that you need? He said they needed 3 years with React.js experience, they needed knowledge of Angular, and he couldn't give me the third one. And I was just— and it was a video call, and I was just starting to lose my patience. I said, you know what, that's fine, I don't want to work with you. Um, you, you're just getting around the question. You can't give me a budget. I never work jobs that they don't give me a budget, because how do I know I could send someone over at $100 an hour when their budget is $70? It's a waste of my time. And I said, look, you know I'm, I'm just not interested. I've got other clients that are more important. And that client then came back to me 2 days later with everything I needed and the budget. And I think sometimes pushing them away definitely helps.

Interesting.

Yeah, because then you're, you're not— I, I'm always a believer that a manager is a candidate for the job, right? So before, a long, long time, I put them on this pedestal that, oh, it's a CTO, I've got to be really professional. No, I, it's my, my time is valuable as well. And if you, if you're going to give me the time, then Go and work with some other recruiter who will fail because you will give them the same, the same information as, as you've given me, and they'll spend ages on it. I work, I work really, really, really efficiently now. I only work jobs that I know are— that can turn into deals, and I don't work rubbish jobs.

Cool, that's really fascinating, man. Great, uh, advice for people listening. And rubbish jobs versus good jobs— I'm curious what you've deciphered. You must save a lot of time by understanding what a good job is versus a bad job. What a good job to you, James, that you know you're going to make money from?

Yeah, so I, I have a ranking system that I've created myself. So for me, process is key. I'm a massively process-driven person. So let's say I, I go on a job qualification call, um, I'll put a profile call in their diary 48 hours out, right? So that's a profile call, is when we will jump on like we are on now and we'll go through the CVs together. So any objection they give me, I can handle on that call. Um, I then put placeholders in their diary for interviews, so they have to accept that before I work the job. I then put a feedback call in after the last interview, and I'll say to them directly, okay, this call is to tell— is for you to tell me who you're gonna hire. So I know when I'm gonna do the deal. If they don't accept any of those things, I don't work the job. And so now my job-to-conversion ratio is like 1:1.

Wow, that's so crazy.

I love that, especially that last one.

That's—

that last call is something I haven't heard before, uh, James. Um, so you're basically saying you're basically booking these 3 calls in advance, and we're saying that before you go away and do anything, and especially that last one, you're saying this is when you're going to make a decision. What, what's the response? What kind of responses did you get prior? Did you get a lot of pushback from that?

Or like, what I'm curious about, the responses from that, uh, the responses are great because, you know, I didn't contact them at all before or during that time. So any other recruiters call them saying, do we have any feedback yet? What did you think of the CVs? Blah blah blah. 'Whereas I'm just radio silent. I don't speak to them until that call's there.' And so many people have said, 'That is so refreshing to know that you're not bombarding me with calls all the time. I know when I'm speaking to you.' So I only speak to them probably 3 or 4 times and I get the deal done. Whereas you have every other recruiter calling them non-stop on their phone and they decide, 'Just leave me alone, I can't be asked for it.' Whereas if they work with me, they know they have to only speak to me 3 times, the job's done.

So it's such a great process. And when are you framing this to them? Is this on the initial call to say, hey guys, hey Mr. CTO, by the way, this is how I work. You have to put this in your calendar. It goes like this, this, this. Are you pre-closing them basically with that information at the very start?

100%. Yeah. So for me, I said, look, this is the way I like to work. Um, it's worked for many different companies, again, name dropping them. Um, and just say, look, you're a CTO. You're— the last thing you probably want to be doing is speaking to recruiters day in, day out. Am I right? 'Yeah, you're absolutely right, James. Okay, great. So this is what we're going to do.' And then I take control. And then it's all in their calendar. I said, 'Look, then you don't have to worry about me contacting you. I am not going to speak to you until Friday.' Right? And Friday's a bad example because it's Friday today. But like, you know what I mean? In terms of making sure that I'm just very, very in their calendar. And the US calendar is massive for them. People don't like being called unannounced. So they're driven by their diaries. They're driven by meetings. They're driven by everything. So I've just adjusted. In the UK it might not work as well, but in the US it's very effective.

Interesting. Really cool, man. So many little gold nuggets there. Is there anything we haven't spoken about to do with your lead generation slash BD process, James? So we kind of know that it's top, it starts from the bottom, you work your way up. Is there any, anything that we've missed that may be valuable to share with, with the audience?

I think that the key thing is, and I made this mistake for a long, long time, right, is don't— once you've done a deal, don't move just on to the next client. Like, we're all taught, like, bring on new business, bring on new clients, bring on new things, whereas actually, you know, you can double your contract work or your, or your perm business by just focusing on maximizing landing and expanding. And it took me a while to realize this. I don't think I'm a dumb guy by any stretch, but I had at one point, um, like 15— this was not a Signify, a previous business— like 15 runners with 15 different clients and my manager said to me, look, if you just added one to each one, you would double your book and it would be like, wouldn't life be so much easier? It's a warm account. We've got terms agreed, we've got everything like that. You don't have to change niches every single month. And I thought, yeah, you're actually right. Why am I not just doing that? So I think the biggest thing for me now is just making sure I maximize the account as much as I can. That's why dealing with the CTO is good, right? Because they give you everything.

Yes, really interesting. And you might have already answered it, James, but like, how— what are their little things that you need to do to land and expand effectively? Or is it much simpler, a case of doing a good job? And then, like, are there any tactics that you use out of interest?

So the, the most powerful thing— and I, and I know this is very common, a lot of companies have this— but Slack for me is really, is really key. So I have used Slack at one previous business, but I use Slack here, and Um, I've asked the CTOs of many businesses to add me into Slack channels with other managers. And so now I've got my internal connect people, like the people I work with, but most of them are external connections where I've got literally every single company in every different department. So it might be— I use Netflix, for example. Netflix data engineering, all the hiring managers in data engineering, Netflix software engineering, every single manager there. And then they just go, James, we need this, we need this, we need this. So now I wake up and my, my Slack is just pinging off with lots different job requirements. So clever. Yeah, it's just making life easier for you, man. That's pretty much it.

And how do you frame that to the CTO? You're just like, hey, do you have Slack, by the way? Like, how do you frame that? Because that's quite a personal thing to invite an external recruiter into a company Slack channel, I would have thought anyway. But how are you framing that?

Well, actually, they, they suggested to me, they say, I hate email. I hate— I don't know. Um, yeah, and it's just like, if you need me, just Slack me. And I'm like, fine, that works for me, works for me, no problem.

And then because there's— again, I'm more of a WhatsApp person, not Slack James, but they could be speaking to you personally in a private Slack instead of inviting you to the entire company Slack. How are you getting into company Slacks? Is it just like, how are you framing that and getting in?

So I mean, I initially— I never speak to them initially on Slack to begin with. I always have a phone conversation and then they'll— I'll invite— I'll personally invite them to Slack and then they'll set up a group where they'll add me in with all the hiring managers. So yeah, I mean, if I build a great relationship with the CTO, the chances of any manager going to their CTO— and unless I really annoy them, which I don't, I don't think it's ever happened, touch wood— um, they're always going to tell you what the CTO does, right? Because that's their boss. So if I build a great relationship with the CTO, but I've proven to the CTO that I can add value— again, going back to that word value— um, you know, it's great. I had a client yesterday who I got introduced to a new department And he said that— he said, the reason why I'm working with you, I already have two really good vendors I work with, is because I've heard great things from the software engineering department about you. Uh, he gave us three roles. We've already delivered to all three of them within 24 hours. Um, and now we've got interviews set up for today, so we should hopefully again do a deal today. Touch wood.

Amazing.

So cool, man. Um, I'm curious because, um, you— it took you— was it six— well, it was from April to the end of the year, you hit a million. Am I right in saying that?

Um, 958, which really annoyed me.

Yeah, yeah, which call it a million. But yeah, um, you're on $500K this year and you plan to hit a million. But what keeps going around in my head is that you had to work insanely hard last year to get close to a million. You're gonna get to a million most likely this year. What is the biggest needle move? Because you're not working as much, are you? So what have you changed in the process in order for you to hit a million but work like, you know, 30% less or 40% less? Guess?

That's a great question. So last year I didn't have any client base, so because I was non-billing for 2 years, right, so I had to work insanely hard to prove myself.

I get you.

This year I have repeat clients, so it's easier, it's easier for me this year, whereas last year I was a blank slate, knew no one. So that's helped, I think, a lot. Um, I'm still doing— I've done half a million new business with new clients this year that's written. So I've done half a million invoice and half a million written so far. So you'd like to think— and that's with new clients as well. So I'm still putting a shift in, but I'm working a lot smarter now. My calls are a lot shorter. Before, they were a lot longer. I was probably talking too much. I didn't do enough listening. And I think I'm still learning, you know. I, I learn all the time. I have a great mentor, Lauren Dubry, who runs our, um, who runs our US business. And seeing with him, listening to how he did things, you know, I've got a bit of an ego, but I 'If someone's going to make me more money by helping me, then why would I not do that?' And so I listened to him. I classify him as a very good friend now. We get on very, very well. And it probably helps that I help him build a lot of money. But yeah, I think just listening to people above you and, and taking your ego out of it and making sure that you're always learning and developing is really key.

Awesome. I completely forgot a bloody important question, James, which was how are you getting in contact with CTOs? Like, like that is probably one of the most difficult things to get high-level executives on a call in the first place, let alone anything else. Like, how are you introducing— how you get them on a call, essentially?

Yeah, so, um, many different ways. Um, I try and first off, obviously, by, by trying to use their number from Lusha or RocketReach or something like that. Um, but I, but I sometimes— actually, the most effective way I've found is, um, by asking the candidate that I'm speaking to, I said, look, I've got the perfect solution. And I know your CTO would love to work with me. I don't know if he would or not, but I'm assuming. And, but what's his number? What's his number? And you know what, the Americans are so like, they like, in the UK, you would, you would say, no, I'm not going to give you someone's number that I don't know. And if the Americans go, sure, man, yeah, no problem.

Here we go.

There's the number. And then I called them, and then the first like 10 seconds, the most important thing in a pitch, right? They're the most thing that's going to cut— probably even 5 seconds, I would say. Um, and just— and so I've just done it that way, and it's hard. It is hard because it's not 100% success rate. But again, going back to the word value, as soon as you show your value— and you know, the recruitment agencies out here in America are not good, man. I mean, in comparison to the UK, yeah. The good ones are the ones that were bought in the UK and now moved over, um, but the, but the ones that are US-based, they, they just don't have the UK mentality of working quickly. That's why I beat everyone, because I work with speed, right? I told you about the client that we had jobs from yesterday. I've already delivered them, um, because I work with speed. In the UK mentality, you're taught to work quickly because of the competition, um, and so I just have to work fast, and that's why I beat everyone.

Interesting. And so the— you, you got— you speak to the candidates, you ask for the number. Is that like the— is that how you get 50% of introductions to CTOs? 60%? Is there anything else that you've tried that has worked alongside that?

So yeah, the podcast I did as well really helped. Um, so I only dealt— so it was called— it was— it's called The Leadership Blueprint. So I only dealt with CTO, C-suite people on there. Um, and I always then dropped at the end of the question, I said, look, obviously this conversation's gone really well, you know my day job as being a recruiter, um, would love to show you, you you know, where we could add value into your team, um, just by maybe showing a couple of profiles. What's the skill set you're struggling to find right now? Um, and I've got into some huge companies like that, like Red Lobster, for example, a massive, uh, restaurant chain here in the States. Um, and yeah, just, just doing it that way, man. It's different. UK recruitment, US recruitment is so different. It is completely chalk and cheese, in my opinion.

So interesting. And is that— what's the biggest difference, you think? Is it just the willingness to, to speak and the openness to have a conversation, or what else goes in your mind with the difference between UK and US?

Um, I think the— I think Americans look at you as a partner, whereas UK people will see you as a salesperson and just kind of— yeah, your salespeople have that association with them, and recruiters have that association that they're just like sleazy money grabbers. Whereas in the US, if they find a really good recruiter they want to partner with, they'll— it doesn't matter where they'll go, they'll go to Company A, B, C, D, and they'll just take you with them. So I've had clients from, you know, a year ago who have changed jobs shops, and they've just— they've come in and said, no, we're not— I'm not using that vendor, I'm using James because he's helped me before. So if you— again, building relationships is so, so important. I never got that. I never grasped the building the relationships. I know my ex-CEO Jamie Fraser taught me this, is that the key thing to do is building great relationships. It sounds so obvious, but I was just more about, right, do a deal, move on to the next one. I don't care that— I don't care about that building relationships. I've done what I've had to do. Whereas now all I care about is having, you know, weekly catch-ups, bi-weekly catch-ups with people checking in, check it, like finding out more about what they like and from a sports perspective, what they're doing with their family, where they're going on vacation next, and just actually sounding authentic. You know, I've been to 5 CTO's weddings since I've started.

Wow.

Um, oh yeah, they've invited me, yeah, to their, to their stag dos and things like that, just because they treat me as a friend. Yeah, it's crazy.

That's when you know you've built good relationships.

Yeah, yeah.

Getting invited to CTO's wedding, that's nuts, mate. Um, you mentioned something, James, which again I had to dig into. You said the first 5 seconds is really important when you're approaching a CTO. Do you have in your mind something that you say every time that, that is most likely to grab their attention? Is there like an opening line or like a— what, what do you say?

So I name drop as quickly as possible. They're the person that told me that, that's given me their number. Um, because normally the question I get asked is, who gave you my number? Um, so I'll just tell them straight. I'll say, look, I spoke to the— I spoke to John, who told me that there's a dire need in your business for Salesforce professionals right now. I've helped and I'll, I'll quickly find out on ChatGPT who their biggest competitor is. I'll name 3 of them. I helped build out their whole of their Salesforce ERP implementation. I've got people who have just finished working for them again, working for a competitor, people like that. And I know I can add value into your business. I know you've been struggling for X amount of months. When's a good time for us to sit down and go through those profiles? Assumptive close. Um, and they're kind of taken off guard because you've name-dropped a competitor, you've name-dropped a person that's given their number. They're probably going to get bollocking when I finish the call. But, um, but I managed to get them on a hook. And I said— and I— what I always do as well is I send them an invite. Most recruiters would hang up then. I don't. I stay on the call until they've accepted it. Um, and I'll just say, no, it's fine, I've got time, I'll just wait until you've accepted it. And they'll come through in a minute. I'll say, no, it's fine, I've got time. Yeah, so I love that.

It's so funny.

Yeah, that's so good.

And the assumptive close, obviously you've— I'm guessing you've tested this. The assumptive close was the most effective way to get them to, to the next stage. James, am I right in saying that?

100%. Yeah, I think that the key thing is, is taking control. And what I, what I think, again, it's all about— a lot of people put managers on a pedestal and they, they, they just get scared. Like when we, when we first introduce, um, consultants to recruitment, we always get them on Candidates First, right, to understand their market and to ease them into the life of calling and, and telesales and things like that. As soon as they get to managers, they freak out. They go, oh my God, let's talk to a manager. I— a manager, as I said, a manager is just a candidate with a job. For me, if they're not interested, it's their loss. Like, they don't work with me, in many ways they're letting themselves down. And I had to change my mentality about that. Again, going back to the whole mindset piece, um, I was like, look, and if anyone who doesn't want to work with me it's their problem, like it's their loss sort of thing. So, and I think that comes across in my tone of my voice, right? Whereas before, I remember joining recruitment and watching my manager, and he was talking to managers like basically how I said right now. I said, no, please don't talk like that, I don't want the deal to drop, I don't want the job to drop. And whereas now I think it just comes with experience and confidence that, you know, you've proven yourself, and you— some clients will love you, some clients might not, and it's their loss if they don't work you.

Yeah, that mindset get developed in that like 8 months of intense work, um, James, or was that before that, or was that mainly in that, in that period?

I'm curious.

I think it's the 8 months. I think it's the 8 months. Yeah, because I remember watching my recruiters when I was non-billing for 2 years. I used to get so frustrated because they would hang up so easily, and I was just like, come on, man, you've got to push yourself. Like, know your worth, know your value. And, and as soon as I got back to it, I chose 'cause a lot of people think in recruitment non-billing is the dream. It isn't in my opinion. You know, you're in, as I said before, you're a cost to the business. You're normally one of the first ones to go if the business starts to suffer, which during COVID and things like that, obviously a lot of people went. So I wanted to make myself irreplaceable. That's my mindset every single day. I have to be irreplaceable. No one can come into my shoes and do better than I can. So yeah, you're absolutely right. It was that transition of moving back from non-billing to billing. Proving myself wrong and then saying, you know what, no one can beat me, both from inside my business but also from outside, like clients. No client's better than me, and I'm not better than any client, that we're on the same level. Yeah, yeah, they need my services, um, and I need them to make money.

So yeah, I love that. I feel like the, the huge driver here in confidence is you having this transition of really believing in yourself and proving to yourself that you can deliver. And I, and I feel that— I feel like that's like such a key aspect to sales and, and doing better, is that if you truly believe and you've convinced yourself that you're valuable, it has a knock-on effect with everything that you do and how you speak and how you hold yourself.

Yeah.

And that's kind of what I'm getting from this, James, which is really fascinating.

100%. Yeah, totally agree with you.

Yeah, cool. So it's like perfecting your service/product, and once once you're like absolutely certain that you can deliver the best thing, sales just knocks on from there, essentially.

Um, yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure.

Um, I was gonna ask, uh, mate, you seem to be using ChatGPT and really like— you're not— I mean, I don't know how else using it, but you seem to be injecting it in really clever ways. Like the beginning when you search, uh, LinkedIn jobs and you say, hey, what's the most, uh, common keywords that are being used? And are there any other ways that you're using ChatGPT that we haven't spoken about yet that make your job more efficient?

Uh, I think those, I think those are the main ways. I think a lot of recruiters now are using ChatGPT to make a resume or CV look perfect for the job, and then the candidate gets on a call and they have nothing that is completely different to what their original resume looks like or CV looks like. Um, I don't do it that way. I only try and find out, you know, sometimes I will go on and say, you know, who's hired the most Salesforce developers as contractors in the last 6 months in the US, and then it will rip out everything out of LinkedIn and give me the, the main clients. And I'll go, okay, now I want maximum of, I don't know, 1,000 employees, just because they'll give me Salesforce, they'll give me all these massive consultancies. I want to work with SME-type businesses where there's less red tape. So going back to your original point, that's really how I use ChatGPT, is not to, um, I guess, adjust resumes or, or affect things, but just to make work smarter and just to make it clear for me. I don't use it to create a pitch, I don't use it to create LinkedIn posts or anything like that. I just use it simply as a way of— which is the quickest way to make money. And cool, it's working.

So yeah, interesting, man. That's really cool. Um, I am— this is a selfish question, uh, I'm fascinated during that period where you absolutely crammed it for 8 months. Um, I would love to know your day plan then and what your day plan looks like now, just to see the difference, if that's okay.

Mate?

Yeah, so my day plan, um, at the start, um, probably would terrify you, um, because it was— I didn't have a spare, like, I didn't— I worked through lunch. I mean, I'm surprised I'm still alive, to be honest, because, um, it was, it was chock-a-block. And it is still very, very busy. I'm looking at it now, um, but I think the key thing is now— so I color code. So I'm, I'm actually colorblind, so like, for me, sometimes colors don't really work very well, but now I can see exactly where my BD calls are, where I need to, um, focus on. So I have— so to go back to your original question at the start, it was candidates in the morning for a couple of hours, um, finding at least, you know, 5 bits of hot information or, or things that I can take to market in the afternoon. Whereas now it's very much mixed between still candidates a little bit, but I have a delivery team now that focuses on it, um, but mainly helping my team um, because I now run contract across the US. And then, um, callbacks— I'm making sure I'm building that relationship, going back to building those good relationships. Um, and then obviously still adding a bit of new BD in there as well, whereas before it was like I was a rookie again, just starting from scratch. You know, I, I've worked in recruitment 12 years, and having to start from zero, a contract book a week, can be very, very tough mentally. So I wanted that zero gone as quickly as possible, and I think I'm now at like 30 $34,000, $35,000 a week now. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's been pretty good.

Cool. Um, you might have said this to Sam, so forgive me for asking the question, James, but you've been in recruitment 12 years. How many years did it take you to get to a top biller kind of status?

11. Um, yeah, no, yeah.

And before that, what were the— what were your— you have to give me like the exact numbers, but what would you say, how were you performing for the 11 years, do you think?

I was average at best. Average. Um, $5,000, $6,000, $7,000 a week max. Um, just because again, I was a bit of a party boy, Ben, to be honest with you. And I, I just, I kind of lived for Friday nights, and, and I didn't save a lot. As I said, I got into a lot of debt. And it was, you know, if I had my time again, I, I earned a lot of money in those times, and I've, I have little to show for it. I've got a lot to show for it now because of the money I earn now, but, um, yeah, I mean, it still kicked— I still kick myself.

But I guess you have to sometimes go through those times to Yeah, no, I mean, for me it's really refreshing and like I feel like a lot of people will resonate this because normally when we speak to top billers there's almost this, this unrealistic kind of since they were 3 years old they were, they were working and you know, these kind of— if it almost feels unrealistic, but I feel like you've been actually been through this journey where, you know, you, you were coasting for a little bit or doing average, you said, right? Now you're like exceptional at what you do and I just feel I think that's a really inspiring story for like a lot of people because it shows that not that everyone's like you, James.

I'm sure there's—

I'm sure it's very difficult, but do you know what I mean? I feel like it's quite a realistic story that other people can get behind.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. I think I tell this to everyone I interview, that I, that I speak to in my team, is that I'm not a genius. I'm not a recruitment god. I'm not a superstar. I'm not something that, you know, that it came down out of the sky and I was born into recruitment and all this type of stuff. I'm just a process-driven guy. I was average at best, you know. My reputation in the industry was terrible because people— some, like, there was a point when people wouldn't touch me with a barge pole. Signify actually rejected me 3 years ago, um, because they had a bad reference on me. Um, and even to this day now, the CEO says it's probably one of the worst mistakes they've made. But I think the key thing was, was that I wasn't ready because I was immature, and I just— I didn't have that. And I probably always had it, but when you're told you're the golden boy for so long you, it kind of gets to your head a bit and you go, do you know what, I don't need to be— do I don't need to be in fifth gear all the time. Whereas now I'm in fifth gear from 7 AM till whenever I finish because I have to be, because I have to be at my top of my game. And if you— if the same— if I looked at myself 3 years ago and had this conversation, he would, he would look at me with a blank face, um, expression on his face and go, I don't know what you're talking about, mate, to be honest. And now, and now I'm just like, I like performing at an elite of all.

So yeah, it's amazing.

Great story. Um, a couple things, James, and then we'll probably bring the pod to an end unless there's any— anything else that you guys want to speak about. But you said, uh, a lot of— a lot of your time now, or at least some of it, is callbacks. And I'm just curious how you structure these callbacks. Is it as simple as like, I'm going to call a CTO every week on a Thursday? Like, how does that— how does that work, mate?

Again, so it comes down to process. So I'd say, look, you don't want me calling you unannounced. Um, I'll put something in our calendar biweekly just to catch up, um, and see where things are Again, it's really simple, Sam. Like, there's no real secret sauce to it. It's just like the one key thing I would say for anyone is just make sure your diary is organized. Like, I go into some people's diaries and, you know, mine scares me, but some people have blank spaces and I go, what are you going to be doing in this blank space? You don't know what you're doing. At least with mine, you know, I've got this in my calendar now, but for the next 5 hours, 6 hours after this, I'm on back-to-back calls. So I know that I'm speaking to at least 7, 8 8 decent hiring managers today, right? I would much rather have 7 or 8 really good conversations— I've said this before— than call 100 times and get through to one person. It just makes no sense to me. So I always ask, what are you doing? If you're like, if you're not doing something, what are you doing to make yourself money? So, um, I would just say, yeah, to answer your question about the callbacks thing, just making sure it's recurring in their diary. Um, and if you build a good relationship, they're more than happy to talk to you. Sometimes they'll even text me even before and say, how are you getting on? Like, how's things? And you just build the relationship.

Yeah, I love that, man. And, uh, last one I, uh, I have a— well, I'll just ask the question. Um, what habits do you have outside of work that you think have contributed to your either your mindset or your resilience or recruitment? Is there anything you do outside of, of work, James?

So I do boxing now. Um, boxing's obviously really good, but I'm a bit of a racer as well. I think I told you this before we started recording, I'm massively into my Formula 1, so I'm part of like a karting league, so I do a lot of karting, go-karting at like a high level, but at a fairly decent level. So again, it comes down to that competitiveness. And, you know, in a go-kart, it's only you, right? So a bit like recruitment, you're only— it's only you and you have to find that extra couple of tenths of a second to beat the next person, or if you're behind someone, how to work out ways of how to beat them. And I think that really resonates with my job is that when I put my visor down on my helmet, I'm just, I'm just in my zone. I mean, and then I kind of just always think that back to recruitment. So to answer your question, probably boxing and go-karting are two of the main things I'm passionate about.

Wicked, man. And how often are you doing go-karting and boxing?

I'm just curious.

Yeah, boxing. So boxing like 4 times a week now. Um, so yeah, I've shed a lot of weight off now from that. And karting happens every Friday night, so, um, it also stops me from going down the pub every Friday, which Uh, Ben, do you have any, any questions or—

um, no. Well, actually, one last one. Um, we've covered a ton of super valuable stuff, James, so thank you so much. I'm just always like to finish with this. Is there anything that you think we've missed? Let's imagine there's a recruiter sitting here listening to us right now, and we're trying to give them the best opportunity to succeed and, and follow in your footsteps. Is there anything that we've missed you think that might be useful for them to know?

I think I would, I would just leave with the point that, you know, as I've said to you before, it took me 11 years to get to this point, and hopefully it takes a lot of people less, less time. But just don't be defeatist. Things can change. You know, I, I was average. Like, if you picked out 100,000 recruiters, I'd probably be 50,000th. Now I'm probably the top 0.1%. Um, nothing's changed. Nothing. My ability hasn't changed. I haven't, you know, suddenly, you know, grown amazing at sales or anything like that. I've just adjusted my mindset and being really disciplined and work hard. You know, the key thing is a lot of people come in, they work, they work okay, they'll go do their KPIs, they'll get by, they'll earn okay money. You don't want to be one of those people, and I was for such a long time. And I just think anything is possible if you put your mind to it. I have not changed as a person. Yes, I've matured. Yes, I've got older. Um, but you know, just don't give up, I would say. And just, just that. And work as hard as you can.

I love that, James. Thank you so much, mate. I absolutely love this podcast, James. Thank you so much. Your energy is absolutely infectious, and you've given us some absolute golden nuggets today. So thank you so much, mate. Um, I really appreciate you coming on, and it was lovely to meet you as well, genuinely.

Likewise, Sam. Ben, thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.