How to Create a Multi-Million Pound Recruitment Business

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Tom Wood. Tom went from being a £500K biller to then going off on his own and setting up his own multi-million pound recruitment business. On this episode, we're going to be delving into the biggest differences between being a top biller and then going off and setting up your own recruitment company. We're going to be talking about the mistakes that Tom made along the way of setting up his own company, specifically around the areas of hiring and keeping the company as profitable as possible. And finally, Tom's going to share with us some of the secrets that he learned along the way of how to build such a powerful culture and how this contributes to your success. So grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hey Tom, how you doing?

I'm good, good to be here.

Yeah, thank you, mate. Um, we were just speaking off camera or when it wasn't recording. And, uh, I think we've known each other for a while through LinkedIn. I've seen you on a few podcasts. Um, I know you're very good at what you do. You have a lot of experience in the recruitment field, especially setting up your own company, and you've had a lot of success with that. So I wanted to bring you on and pick your brains of how to run a successful recruitment company. So thanks for coming on, mate, really appreciate it.

Oh, pleasure. It won't take long picking my brains, but we'll, uh, we'll try and drag it out. Cool, mate.

So we always start the podcast with this same question, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or piece of software? What would you say, mate?

So I think it's got to be mindset. I think anybody that wants to go and build a recruitment business, I think there's there's varying degrees of what that business can be. So I, I always say that anybody can go and recruit, you know, any— anybody can go and sit in their bedroom, spare bedroom, whatever, um, and do a couple of deals, you know. That's not— that's not the hard part. Um, the hard part is turning it into a viable, successful business, and for me, that requires a certain mindset. That requires a discipline, consistency, focus. You can have all the software in the world, but if you don't have that mindset, you're always going to fail. So I think it's, and, you know, I live by this in a lot of different parts of my life, you know, it's mindset, you know, it's absolute determination, absolute focus, absolute will to succeed. You know, you'll work till 10 o'clock at night if you have to, you'll work at weekends. It's all about the mindset.

Funny that Tony Robbins has been saying that for ages, hasn't he? He said that business is 80% mindset and 20% tactics and strategy. And the more you run your own business, the more you realize that is so bloody true. Like, mindset.

I think one of the things that people, certainly in this modern world that we find ourselves in, people seem to shy away from hard work. And I think there's a perception because of the culture that we're in at the minute where there's this whole kind of work-life balance. There's a perception that you shouldn't work hard. There's a perception of you should enjoy your life, you should have a work-life balance, you know. And look, I'm all for that, but you cannot sacrifice hard work. You know, whatever you're doing, you cannot sacrifice hard work. So I think there's lots of different routes and different angles you can go in terms of how to be successful in business. But ultimately, the number one is hard work. You know, you cannot replace that with anything. You have to work hard. You have to put the hours in. You have to have the graft, you have to do the numbers, you have to, you know, you have to work hard. You know, it's the same if you want to be a footballer, it's the same if you want to be a hockey player, netball player, it's the same if you want to be a bodybuilder in the gym. You have to work hard.

I feel like working hard is just the barrier to entry because you're not even guaranteed success if you work your ass off, are you? But you'll get a bit closer. But that's like the barrier to entry for me, especially if you're running your own business.

I think you can work hard, and, and ultimately, if you work hard, you would do well. You know, I, I think, I think there's a— like anything, you know, if you go into the gym, for example, and you lift enough weights, and you lift enough weights long enough, you will put some muscle on. But, but there'll become a point where you plateau. There'll become a point where you've only— you can only do so much. Then it comes into technique, then it comes into routine, then it comes into strategy. Then it comes into different ideas, different ways of working, you know, and that's the layers you put on top of the hard work. Hard work will get you so far, you know, and that's got to be the foundation. But then on top of hard work, you can then put some strategies, some objectives, some finesse, you know, and that's what takes you to the next levels.

Yeah, totally agree, mate.

Ben, what do you think? Yeah, I'm just fascinated because I feel like I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Tom, but you were billing quite a considerable amount on your own, and I'm guessing the profits were pretty cushy. You could have had a really good, easy life, I think, with that kind of billing and on your own. What was it that really motivated you to take it to the next level? What was the main thing for you, do you think?

Um, and do you know what, and that's a great question because sometimes in hindsight you kind of think maybe I should have done that, maybe I should have stepped you know, stopped the growth, stopped the expansion, and just done it on my own. Um, do you know what? I, I think, I think it comes down to you as a person, because I know lots of people who are very content billing £300, £400, you know, £500 per, maybe, I don't know, as a contract, maybe 6, 7 100 contract, which is harder on your own because funding, etc. But, um, certainly perm billers, you know, I know people that have done between 300 and 500 on their own and they live an absolute incredible life. They live an absolute amazing life. They, you know, financially they're fine. You know, the thing to me, and, and where, where I always had this itch that needed scratching, and I still do because that was never enough, you know, that was never enough for me. It wasn't about could I build 500 grand, you know, it was more for me about can I build something, you know, can I make a difference, can I make a change, can I do something that's going to be disruptive, can I do something that's gonna make a difference, can I make a change, you know, and those are the things that were the drivers for me and then there's some smaller drivers, I need people interaction. That's one of the big things for me. I couldn't sit in a room on my own just recruiting for the rest of my life. I would drive myself nuts. I'd drive everybody around me nuts. So there's little things like that. I want to have interaction with people. I enjoy the people development side. I like seeing other people succeed. So there's those kind of smaller things. But the big itch for me, the big itch for me was I I wanted to do more. You know, it wasn't me just a case of I want to be a big biller and that's fine, I'll just sit in the bedroom and I'll keep recruiting until I'm 65. I'll just keep recruiting. For me, that wasn't it. It was I want to do something different. I want to make a statement. I want to make a difference. I want to disrupt stuff. You know, I want to build something. And I think if you have that mindset, you have to do more than just recruiting on your own. You know, you're never going to be satisfied. And I wasn't. I was never satisfied.

Um, yeah, I just want to provide people some context as to your success, uh, Tom, because I think it's just good to— your first year you had 8 to 10 people, turned over £1 million, all perm. Second year you ended with 14 people at £1.5 mil. Third year you turned over £2 mil, 18 people. Um, so you've had some great success, and I know there are some recruiters looking, listening into this podcast right now thinking, what are the biggest differences between billing solo and going out and building a team or building a company? Are there any key things that come to mind that they should be prepared for if they were going to go out and start scaling?

Yeah, it's a completely different beast. The thing people have to appreciate, so billing on your own, you are self-sufficient, you are self-reliant, you are on your own. It's you. You dictate what you do, when you do it. You know, in the mornings you get up, you decide you want to work, you don't work. That's on you. When you scale a recruitment company and you hire people and you want to grow and you want to, you know, take the revenues and, and much higher, the challenges that come into it are, are beyond probably what you think and what you expect they're going to be. So you have to hire people, you know, and, and hiring people, despite the fact that we're recruiters, is a ball ache. You know, it is a because you don't know, you know, and you might get the wrong person, you might get it right, you do all your due diligence, but you've then got people, people have personalities, people have opinions, people have difference of opinions. You know, some people are motivated all the time, some people aren't, you have to motivate them. You know, you have to then, you then incorporate the cost of those people. You know, we got to a cost base at one point, it was over £100 grand a month, you know, and as a business owner, when you're sitting there at night and the market's dipped a bit, things have gone a bit slow, and you're still carrying a cost of £100,000 a month. Those are the stresses that you then carry. Those are the things that keep you up at night. You're looking at your P&L and you kind of go, fuck, we've got £100,000 coming out next month and we've only got £45,000 coming in. So it's taking on that mindset. It's how do we then create a culture? What is our culture? What do we want to be seen as? What's our ethos? And it's these kind of things that actually you then have to start thinking about. Whereas, you know, Tom Wood sitting on his own in his back bedroom doesn't have to think about that stuff. You know, you just recruit, you just build. But as you grow, as you build, you have to then start to think about what's our identity? Who do we want to be? Why are we different? What's our mission statement? What's our ethos? What's our culture? What do we stand for? Okay, who am I hiring first and when? Okay, now I've got 4 or 5 recruiters. Okay, let's get some infrastructure right. Operations, HR, finance. Okay, systems. We now need to get some better systems in place. It just goes and goes and goes. And I think a lot of the time people don't think about that stuff. I think a lot of times people think, yeah, great, I'll get 4 more people. They can bill a couple of hundred grand each. I'll learn off those guys. Happy days. Doesn't work that way. You know, there's a lot of challenges and complications that come with it that I think people don't necessarily appreciate.

Interesting. Sounds like you're building a completely new set of skills as well, which is really interesting. This might be a tough question, but if there was like one skill, it sounds like you mentioned multiple skills there that require time and energy and effort to build. But if there was one particular skill that you think recruiters could focus on that would make their journey a little bit easier, what would that be, do you think?

I've always said this, that in recruitment in particular, and probably in other industries, but one skill that you can always fall back on and you can always rely on is the ability to do new business. You know, I've said it to people so many times, if you cannot do new business, if you're not naturally a new business person, if you can't do sales, if you can't open doors, if you can't create opportunities, if you can't, if that's you, my advice would be do not go and start in recruitment on your own. Honestly, I just, I see it so many times and I've had people that have worked for me over the years in various companies and they're good billers, you know, they're good billers, they'll do 200, 250, 300, but they live off existing accounts, they live off other people, they live off, you know, house accounts. They then go, yeah, I can do it on my own. They can't open doors, they can't generate business, they can't create opportunities. They're not great at relationship building, they're not great at networking. You know, they don't put themselves out there, they don't use LinkedIn properly. So my biggest advice to anybody in terms of skill that will enable you to be successful is be good at new business. You know, have that entrepreneurial mindset. I do it now. You know, I'm winding back from recruitment, but I'm still going, well, I could fill that role. Well, there's something, and I have to switch that off because I'm going, I'm not a recruiter anymore. I've got a software SaaS business, you know, but I see it and I see these opportunities and I'm always thinking like, actually, well, I could do that. Well, I know someone that could go there and do that. You've got to have that mindset. If you don't have that mindset, you're going to struggle, you know, and I think again, I see people who again can do okay in recruitment, but they do it in a, well, I've got a round peg. And there's a round hole. Okay, well, I can put those two together and that will work. To a degree, you can do that. You know, to a degree you can do that, but you're relying then on all of those things aligning. You're aligning, you're relying on the company coming to you going, can you fill this role? You go, I know Pete, he's perfect for this role. And you align those two things and you make a placement. That's not always going to be the case. And I think that's where some people have to sometimes go, do you know what, I've got to be more than that. I've got to be entrepreneurial, got to be innovative. I've got to be, you know, a salesperson, got to be active, proactive, got to be on LinkedIn, I've got to be posting, I'm going to be networking, I'm going to be attending events, I'm going to be leveraging our relationships. If you can't do that, do not do it. Simple as that. Stay employed, live off house accounts, take a lesser percentage and live a happy life. If you are that person and you can do that, go and do it, you know.

I just had a brain fart. I just, I didn't write this question down, but I just, was interested from your perspective, Tom, how do you build a recruitment business that's as profitable as possible? Were there any things that you realized along your journey was like, okay, cool, I'm going to do that differently, I'm going to increase profits and make it as profitable as you can? Any kind of like big, big things?

Yeah, um, I mean, we fell into this trap because, you know what, we gave a lot away, um, and this is one of the things that I, I look back on as a business owner, we gave away too much. And what I'm talking about is we, we gave away lots of commission, we gave away lots of bonuses, we gave away lots of rewards, we gave away lots of holidays, trips, dinners, lunches, you know, we gave away too much. And, and we did that intentionally because as a business, for us, it wasn't about having huge profit margins. I know that might sound stupid, but we weren't building a business to sell, you know, we weren't building a business to try and get a, you know, a 5, 8 times multiple. We were building a business where my ethos was I want everybody to have fun, I want everybody to be rich, I want everybody to benefit, I want it to be a great place to be, great place to work. We all share the spoils and that was intentional. Um, so for me, it was never like, I want to be the richest person in the room, you know. That was not my mentality. And I think lots of recruitment owners, they have that kind of narcissistic mentality where they want to be the richest person in the room. So they pay shit commissions, they pay shit bonuses, they pay shit benefits because they want to keep it all. I, I didn't have that, you know. And I had this mentality, if I want everyone to benefit, I want to, I want to produce 20, you know, $300K earners, you know, $400K earners. I want to see people driving Porsches. That was the kind of mentality I had. However, that's great if you can then, if you can then build the right behaviors to sustain that, that's great. If you can't build the right behaviors and you build a business where people aren't doing new business historically, they're not out generating consistent revenues, etc., etc. That becomes hard because you don't have the profit margins, you don't have the reserves to sustain the level of business when business dips. And that was something we experienced in probably end of '22, '23 when the tech market took a bit of a nosedive. We didn't have the reserves because we'd been operating at such a high level of success, enjoyment, etc., we didn't have huge profit margins to go, well, it's okay, we've got, you know, £2 million in the bank, we can chill, you know, we have to keep going. And that was hard. But I think, you know, if people are focusing on profitability and that's their absolute objective is to have big margins, big profits, there's some really easy things you can do, you know, ensure that your commission plans for consultants are focused more on the higher end, not the lower end. So, you know, people have to be hitting the high levels of performance to hit the big commissions. We always had it at a kind of a mid-level, so if people hit like a mid-level mediocre level, they would earn well. And again, that's great because people felt successful, but my advice would be you want to push that, you know, push that a little bit higher, you know, make them, make them achieve more at the top, you know, and that way you're, you're giving away less at the lower end and the lower end becomes kind of, well, it's okay, but it's not amazing. The higher end is where the big achievers are. Focus your rewards, focus your commissions, your bonuses on the higher end, not the middle end. But equally, drive the mentality of achievement and winning. And I think that's something as well that I would say we didn't always get right because we created this I wouldn't say entitlement culture, but we create this culture where everybody was doing really well and everyone was benefiting and everyone was having a great time. But it then became hard to separate the winners from everybody else. We would do a quarterly lunch and we'd all hit target or the business would hit target and I'd be like, fuck it, let's all go out, let's all go. And there might be somebody that's missed target, you know, but we all still went as a team and And there was some good to that. There was some good to that because it was kind of like, you know, we're all in this together, but you lose that element of winning and losing. And I think you need a bit of that, you know, and that will also help drive profitability because the losers won't necessarily get the rewards that winners get and the winners get the bigger rewards. So I think focus on those kind of things is a key component.

Really interesting, mate. And thanks for being honest. That's really Um, I would love— there's kind of a good transition to get into hiring because you were obviously trying to build a very specific culture, one which was kind of maybe a balance between good billers but people actually enjoying coming to work. And I know from a few other podcasts, um, a listen of you speaking, that you're trying to change the perception of recruitment firms in the industry, aren't you, in terms of like a lot of them are just shitty places to work, and you wanted to kind of change that. So What were the most important things that you were looking for when you were hiring, would you say? What were like the top things you were looking for in consultants?

So I kind of had this ethos when I was hiring and I still stand by it. I still stand by it today because some of the people that I hired were brilliant and they weren't recruiters, by the way. Some of the people that we brought in They weren't recruiters. And that goes back to my previous life when I was employed before I went and set up on my own. So I would hire, and we had a bit of a reputation for this in the early years, but I would hire gym boys and girls. And we had this bit of reputation. And it was quite funny. I remember from COVID when everybody was working at home. And the Evans Denham lot, you know, we were all in the garden and we were all like tattooed and shirts off and training, you know, and we created this little bit of a reputation and everyone's like, do you run a gym? Like, what do you do? You know, and I was like, no, no, no, we're tech recruiters. But we did that and we, you know, we were always in the gym. We went to work in our gym gear. I love that. There was a gym on site. You know, we were always taking pictures in the gym. We trained together. We worked together.

That's cool.

But it, but it was an intentional mindset. And, and the reason I did it was when I looked at people that went to the gym, and this isn't just the gym, this is anything that, that I would say is a competitive sport in particular, but it could be a competitive hobby, but the gym in particular. So when I looked at it, when I hired a lot of guys, um, that I knew from the gym, and one of them was a PT, actually two of them were PTs, you know, two were just guys I knew, you know, people that come from that world. When you break it down, and I looked at those individuals, so the boys and the girls that went to the gym, they didn't drink loads of alcohol, you know, because they were focused on their fitness, they were focused on their, their health, they were focused on their exercise. They were really structured, you know, a lot of them would, they would prepare their meals, you you know, at the weekends they would food prep for the week ahead. So there Sunday night they'd be cooking, they'd be putting stuff into Tupperware, they'd be freezing their meals, they'd have, they'd have calculators where they're calculating their macros, you know, they would have set, um, amounts of protein and carbs and calories, etc. And they were, they were strict with it, you know. In the winter they might be bulking, but a clean bulk In the summer they might be cutting and, you know, a lean cut and, you know, but they still wanted to keep muscle mass and it was, you know, it was a science, you know, and I got to kind of see this and I was like, fucking hell, these guys are structured, like these guys have got a— there's a strategy to what they're doing. They would get up at 5 o'clock regardless, didn't matter when it was, they were up, they were, they were sorting their shit out, they were planning, they were in the gym at 6 o'clock every morning before work. To get their training in, you know, or they're out getting steps in, you know, before that. They had regimented routines, regimented diets. They were competing against each other. Some of the guys that worked for me, uh, have done, you know, bodybuilding, powerlifting, these kind of things. Had footballers that played for— that worked for— played for me, have worked for me. Um, they're structured, they're disciplined, they're structured, you know. Didn't matter what was going on in their world, they still went to the gym, they still trained. And I looked at all of that and I was like, they're competitive. There's an element of vanity to them. They like the material things. They want to improve themselves. They want to better themselves. I'd train them, be benching a certain level. They want to bench more than that. So there was this continuous competitive edge alongside structure, strategy, process, organization, all of this stuff. And I looked at that and I was like, that is transferable. That is transferable. If you can transfer that, you can apply that to recruitment, to sales, fuck me, you are going to smash it. And they did. You know, the work ethic, dedication, you know, the structure, the discipline, the routine, the consistency, the repetition. They put all of that into recruitment and they were exceptional. And I still stand by it. If people have those attributes and people are demonstrating that stuff, if you can interview people and you can delve into that kind of personal life and what do you do, you know, it is transferable. You will, if you can find people like that and you can get them to understand that you apply that to the professional world, the sales world, they will be successful. Hmm.

I find that so clever, Tom, because culture is arguably like one of the hardest things to create in a company, and everyone's trying to unlock the science of like, how do I create a good culture? But by finding people that all have the same hobbies and ethos and like training, you've already kind of created a culture of them coming in.

And it's not, you know, and it's not— I want to say we kind of got this reputation, it's all like, yeah, meatheads, and it wasn't because it was the women as well. You know, the women did spinning and Pilates and, you know, But it was that discipline. And I've said this to lots of people, it could be anything. It could be somebody that's a competitive chess player, you know, because again, there's strategy, there's strategic, there's, you know, you've got to practice, you've got to be process-driven, you know, it doesn't matter what it is. But if you can find that kind of work, you know, that ethic, that way of working, you can put that into a transferable environment. And then you look at the flip side of that, you know, and I've had conversations with people and they're good recruiters, you know, and again, they're recruiters that have probably billed a couple of hundred grand a year. And I'd look at that and I'd go, okay, well, why have you not done more? You know, why have you not kicked on? Why have you not, you know, you're 27, 28, you know, why have you not, you know, gone on to be a 300K biller? Why have you not gone on to be a team leader? Why, you know, all these kind of things. And I kind of analyze it and delve into it, and then you start to go into the hobbies. So what do you do at the weekend and how do you spend your time? Oh, you know, yeah, I love playing PlayStation. Okay. And what, you know, so what do you play on PlayStation? Well, you know, I play anything. I play a bit online. Okay. You know, so do you do any sports? You go, well, you know, I might play a bit of golf every now and then. Okay, okay, great. So you play a bit of golf? Yeah, you know, I'm a bit of a fair-weather golfer. Okay, but it's good exercise. You walk a bit. Well, yeah, I'll get a golf buggy. And I'm kind of like, okay, I'm building a picture here. You know, this person is not somebody that wants to push themselves. Now, when they're playing golf, they get a golf buggy. They don't want to walk. They don't want to make that extra effort. You know, in their spare time, they want to sit on their chair and play a bit of FIFA. And, you know, I said, okay, so how do you spend your weekends? Well, you know, I'll get a pizza and, you know, I might just sit down and play like 8 hours of PlayStation. And you kind of go, Okay, I'm starting to see a bit of a trend here, you know. And even things like when people say to me, yeah, I'll go to bed at like 2 o'clock in the morning, and, you know, and I'm just like, okay, you're not, you're not preparing yourself properly. You're not, you're not planning, you're not thinking strategically, you know, you're not thinking that, okay, well, if I get a good 7, 8 hours sleep, I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna be refreshed, I'm gonna be recharged. You know, people go, well, I get a bit about 2, I should get 4 hours sleep, I'm really tired in the morning, you know. I struggle to get up. Those are the kind of things for me, I'm like, this is not, this is not the mentality of somebody that wants to really go and smash it. And listen, I'm not, I'm not a fan of the 5 AM Club nonsense either because I don't think you have to do that. I, you know, that some people out there and there's entrepreneurs out there and they, they piss me off by creating this kind of mantra of extremes. I don't agree with that, you know. I think you can get up at 9 o'clock in the morning, have a massively productive day, you know. And if you want to work till 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock, where your missus is watching EastEnders, whatever, you can do that. You don't have to be, yeah, 5 o'clock, I'm in the gym, you know, and I train until, you know, midnight. And it's just bullshit. It's like, you don't need to do that, you know. If you did that, you'd be you burn out, you know.

So yeah, what I got— sorry, Ben, what you can say?

I was going to say, um, you obviously have a very specific criteria that you've learned to hire, uh, good staff members. But I'm interested to know, uh, Tom, what was the difference, do you think, between the billers that were like 200 to 300, so really good, to like 500? What were the differences in behaviors or habits that made them get to that level?

You know what, it's the people that generally give a shit. It's, for me, and I still stand by this now, so there's a woman that works for us now, girl, woman, woman makes her really old. She's 40, she's not old. She will do absolutely anything. It doesn't matter what the task is, you know, it No job is too big, no task is too big. You know, if I said to her, could you do me a favor, like, can you go up to Scotland and just go and, go and pick me up a CV and bring it back because I really need this, she'd be like, yeah, yeah, fine. You know, nothing is too big. And for me, those people are worth their weight in gold. I, I, and They're the people for me that will just take your company to the next level. People that are selfish and are out for themselves will take you so far because their greed, their personal greed will take you so far because generally they just want to earn as much money as possible. They don't give a shit about you. They don't give a shit about the company. They just want to earn as much money as possible. They will take you so far. The risk with those people is, are they going to be loyal? Are they going to stick around when the going gets tough? Are they going to be there? Are they going to have your back when you need it? You know, if the market starts to dip, are they going to be the first ones that bail because they think the grass is greener? You've always got that risk with them. You have to have some of them, but you have to offset and balance with the people that will be with you in the trenches. You know, the people that will just, I don't give a shit, I'm with you. You know, I'm on this journey, I'll do whatever you want me to do, you know, I'll fight with you, I'll, I'll fucking, we'll do this together. You need those people. They're the people that are really hard to find, you know, they're the people that are just, I've probably had a handful of them in my career over the years. And when you get those people, you've got to, you've got to cling on to them, pay them money, give them, um, there's a great, there's a great structure that I'm, I'm really bought into, which is around the unexpected bonuses. So, so everyone's like, oh yeah, you know, company discretion and 10% bonus, company discretion. I don't give a shit. They are expecting that bonus. They, they expect that bonus and they are sitting at the end of the year. They want that bonus regardless of how they work, perform, whatever. Remove that shit out of the way and just go, right, it is a spontaneous bonus structure. If I feel you deserve it, I will pay you a bonus. Simple as that. You don't know when it's coming. You don't know how much it's going to be. Basically, you have to be on your A-game all the freaking time. And I will drop a bonus on you or I won't if I don't feel you deserved it. Have that mentality with some of those people that are just— they will have your back and reward them, you know, pay them out of the blue, 5 grand bonus. The level of appreciation, the level of gratitude from those people when you drop a 5K bonus, a 2K bonus, when they didn't expect it. You guys drop that on them, you've got them for life.

That's so cool.

Interesting.

Got them for life. And I just think you have to do that with those kind of people because they will, when the shit hits the fan, when the markets dip, when everything starts to go wrong, they're still there. And those people are just— let's say this girl that works for us, Amy, I don't mind sharing her name, you know, she will do anything and she's just You couldn't ask for a better employee. And she's not, she doesn't earn loads of money, she, you know, but she gives a shit. And like I say, she's the sort of person for me that, you know, I will drop those spontaneous bonuses on her. I've told her now, but I'll drop them on her. You know, we'll keep rewarding her, we'll keep supporting her because she does for us. And I think those are the people that you've got to cling on to.

Love that, Tom. That's so cool. Kind of goes on to my next question, which I mean, this might tie into it, but do you have, do you have in mind, uh, when you made a hire, that was, was there one hire that was the most game-changing while you were kind of on the rise? Was there one hire that was like, oh my God, this person has brought all the pieces together, or this person's really made a huge impact on the systems or the processes or the billing?

Yeah, there was, there was, um, and it was unexpected. Actually. Oh, there was, there was a couple of guys that worked for me, um, previously, and they were lovely guys. And, you know, I've got, I've got huge admiration, respect for them. They don't work for me anymore, they've got off to do their own things. Obviously we've now gone in a different direction. Um, they worked for me previously and they were okay, you know, they were nice lads and I really liked them and I always got on with them and You know, it was one of those that I always kind of said, you know, yeah, if I can, if I can take those guys at some point, I'll take them. But they were very, very middle of the road, you know. They were very like, yeah, they'll do a number, um, but they're probably guys that I'm gonna have to supplement. They're probably guys I'm gonna have to give them the accounts, I'm gonna have to give them the revenue, you know. But they're solid guys, you know. Um, so I brought them in, Jake and George. Um, and again, I don't mind sharing their names. I brought them in And when they first came in, it was kind of one of those, we were like, we don't really know what you're going to do, but you're good lads and, you know, just come and work for me and we'll work it out, you know. Anyway, probably 3 months in, they said to me, right, we want to build a ServiceNow practice. And I was kind of like, I don't really know what ServiceNow is. I don't really understand it, you know, but look, I like you guys. If you think there's a market there, you know, kind of build a market case, build a business case. Let's look at it. I'll back you and we'll go and do it. Anyway, they went away, did a lot of research, built this business case, came back to me and were like, yeah, this is it. You know, we can do this. So yeah, you know, we agreed. I said, fine, not a problem. Let's go and do it. Set about building websites, marketing collateral, content, you know, rebranded them as ServiceNow experts. Backed them financially for about 3 or 4 months. They didn't bill, but we knew there was something coming. They were winning business and it's— anyway, probably within 6 months of launching that division, actually, I saw back into the point where we had a division called ED Digital. So it was Evans Denham Digital and it was ServiceNow and then also things like Salesforce worked there, but it was ServiceNow primarily. And they smashed it. They absolutely smashed it. I think within year 1, they did about $500K between them. And these are 2 guys that hadn't really done new business, you know, historically. So it was a new thing for them. And I was like, you know, at the time I was like, they can't do new business. This is gonna be a fucking nightmare. They were killing it. They were booking meetings. They were presenting. There was a structure to what they were doing. They were mailshotting, they were following up people, they became experts in their niches. You know, year 2, they build between them like, I don't know, 600-700 grand between them. And they built a brand, you know, and all of a sudden they were competing against some of the biggest ServiceNow players in the market and they were beating them and they were smashing them. And we were lucky enough to then, say lucky enough, it was a connection that we'd always had. We brought somebody else in that we'd known for a long time, had about 6 years service now, a girl called Sarah. And again, she just fitted into that team. She was brilliant. I think year 1 with me, she built a couple of hundred grand with restrictions. So she was massively restricted. So I had the 3 of them. They were essentially a million pound unit between the 3 of them within, within 18 months, 2 years of building that division. And they were just phenomenal, you know, phenomenal. They were just every month consistent. You know, I didn't have to worry about them. I didn't have to, I didn't have to pay them any kind of real attention in terms of management. Just let them get on with it. You know, I became an enabler. That's what I used to say to them. I said, look, I am your enabler. You know, I will guide you. I'll give you the infrastructure, the platform, the support, the finances. You guys go and do. And they did, and they were phenomenal. And, you know, they've now gone off and they've set up on their own, the three of them together. I couldn't— I couldn't be happier for them, you know?

Yeah. What I find so cool about that, Tom, is like you took a risk on them and a lot of business owners maybe in that scenario would be like, fuck no, there's no way I'm doing that. You guys can't bill and you want to open up this. Like you took a punt on them. It was a risk and you also gave them the freedom, it sounds like, and the creativity to kind of go off and And that's just fascinating. It's like you gave them a mixture of freedom and control to then go off and spread their wings.

And it was their business. You know, I said to them, like, this is your business. You know, you do it in your style. You know, they dealt with the web design, oversaw that content. I just said, you go and do it. You know, I trust you implicitly. They'd worked for me for— I'd hired them. I'd hired them in the previous company that I'd worked for. So I trusted them. I knew them. But they completely exceeded my expectation, completely exceeded it. You know, I, I knew what I was getting, and what I was getting was a couple of guys that could probably do 150, you know, 200K, probably, you know, that push.

Yeah.

Um, they exceeded it beyond belief, and it was, it was like, you know, it was like that kind of proud parent moment. You know, I was watching these guys become adults, and, and it was just You know, for me, that's one of the standout moments in the Evan Stenham kind of journey was just seeing those guys do that. And, you know, Jake, who was one of the youngest out of the three of them, it was great with him because it was— I'd kind of employed him, I think originally he was like 19, you know, and he was a bit kind of, you know, didn't really know what he was doing and rough around the edges, you know. And he's turned into this just unbelievable, you know, ServiceNow recruiter. He's now running his own business with Sarah and George. And, you know, I just think it's one of those moments. And look, I'm not for one second, I'm not sitting here going, it's all down to me. It wasn't. I gave them a platform and they did it, you know. And I think that's one of the things actually I would say a lot of recruitment owners and recruitment leaders need to do is they need to give that platform. It's very easy sometimes for business owners and recruitment company owners to kind of go, well, this is what we do and you need to conform to that and you need to fit into that and you need to do what we do. And I think in doing that, you're restricting people. But giving people a platform and going, just go and do it. You know, you go and be you. It's a bit like the football analogy, isn't it? You know, I'm a Tottenham fan for my sins. And, you know, Postecoglou at Tottenham has that mentality now where he says, go and play, you know, go and do what you do naturally, go and be the natural football player you are. And that's, I think, something you have to do in recruitment is you have to say to the people, right, here's the platform, here's the infrastructure. Okay, there are some rules around what we do. You know, it's not a free-for-all. But there are some rules, but, you know, loose rules and structures and, you know, and, and go and do it. And they did it, you know. And that was a really, really proud moment to go and see those guys do that and see what they're doing now.

So I feel like they went from kind of average to exceptional. Oh wait, honestly, was there anything else that we haven't mentioned that you noticed was the kind of spark in their brain that allowed them to go from average to exceptional?

I think maturity. I think they said it suddenly clicked for them. I think they suddenly realized they could do it. Um, I think in their previous life they had been kind of positioned and restricted into what they could do and couldn't do. And, you know, the previous company we all worked at was very much led that way. It was very hierarchical, very narcissistical, very, um, you know, you had to conform. Um, and I think I think they enjoyed the freedom that I gave them, which was you don't have to conform, you can do whatever, be whatever, you know, as long as you're professional, as long as you are credible, you've got that freedom. Um, I think they, they, they matured, and I think they, they relished in that environment, they relished in that freedom. They, they always had an ability, so there was never an ability issue, but I think there was a restrictive constraint almost around their ability. And I think by taking the shackles off and by going, just go and be you, they flourished in that. And they saw this maturity then in themselves where all of a sudden they became really credible. They became consultants, they became experts, they became subject matter experts. You know, they could have conversations and You know, I see lots of recruiters that black it. We've all seen that. And these guys were having genuine, credible conversations, you know, with consultancies and talking about projects and talking about issues and deliverables. And so it was just a level of maturity that suddenly everything clicked and they went, right, this is who we are, this is what we're going to do, this is where we're going to be. And off they went.

Love that, Tom. Um, we'll come to the end of the pod. I've got a few more questions. One that I love asking and understanding is, what was the biggest fuck-up that you've made throughout your time running your own business, Tom? Is there one thing that comes to mind that was like, shit, that was a big fuck-up, and that's one of the biggest lessons I've learned?

Yeah, we gave too much. I touched on it earlier.

Cool, okay.

We gave too much and I think we created this environment of expectation and that's something that I've learned. And do you know what, the culture and the— I think the reasons behind it were right. We wanted this culture of success, enjoyment, fun. Everybody had freedom, everybody was feeling part of it, you know, they gave away equity, all these kind of things, you know. Unlimited holidays and all this kind of stuff. Um, but what we, what we created, unfortunately, and it's on me really, was we created this level of expectation. Um, and that's, and that's hard. And one of the things I always say is when you create that level of expectation and you create that level of entitlement— and I don't, I don't say that entitlement to be negative about the people that work for us because I created that entitlement culture. But when you've created that, it's very hard then to pull it back. And we could see that that was happening. We could see that the level of expectation was too high, the expectation of, well, we're going to have a $3,000 lunch at the Mii Hotel, and why aren't we going to have that? That level of expectation was there. Well, it'll be all right. Well, Tom will pay for that. And so that level of expectation was there and I created it and I set that parameters and I set that kind of ethos. When times get hard, so when in '22, back into '22 and going into '23 with lots of recessions and redundancies, sorry, and hiring freezes kicked in in the tech space, it's then really hard to say to a group of 20 people, okay, we're not doing that anymore. Like, you now have to work. Like, you have to work for that. You have to really bust your balls. And, and that becomes really hard then because you're changing the culture. You're changing this culture that you've created and you've kind of nurtured and fostered. And, you know, um, and that was my biggest fuck-up, I think, in the sense that we gave too much. Yeah, too soon. You know, we gave too much too soon. So there was no— you know, people talk about dopamine and having that kind of dopamine hit and all that kind We never created that because you know what, you just had to turn up, you know, you turned up, go and fucking play the Xbox, go and chill, you know, want to work from home, go work from home, you want to start at 10 o'clock in the morning, start at 10 o'clock in the morning, let's go to the gym, go to the gym with the CEO, let's have a laugh, you know, and we created that and it was great and you know what, for a period of time it was absolutely great but in hindsight we just gave too much and It was great when the market was on our side. When the market went the other way, you've then got to change that culture and you've got to introduce different strategies and different metrics and it becomes harder. So hard then to get the people to buy into that because they're kind of going like, whoa, why is Tom being a prick all of a sudden? Do you know what I mean? And it's really hard then. So that to me is the biggest fuck up. We gave too much too early.

Thanks for sharing, Tom. That's really interesting. Um, if there was like a solo recruiter who is about to make the first 2 to 3 hires and you could give them advice on what that commission structure would look like, could you be a bit more specific and just maybe lay out what would you pay them, or what would the commission structure look like in terms of structure, when would they get a bonus, how many times would you take them out for lunch? Because I'm guessing some people are thinking, okay, get what you're saying, but I don't know how to practically apply that. If that makes sense.

Yeah. I mean, interestingly, I met a guy who used to work for me who's now set up on his own. Met him this week, bumped into him, and he's the other way, you know, he's like, yep, 10%, that's it. Commission flat, you know. And there's an argument to say, yeah, that will work. I do think you need accelerators on a commission plan because accelerators motivate people to do more. Yes, a flat commission is good, but I think if you hit certain milestones, you should have those accelerators because it gives you that kicker to want to do more. So I think, look, anything between 0% and 25% commission on a monthly basis spread out across across milestones is pretty standard. You know, some people go up to 30%. I think we went up to 30%, I think. But I think that, you know, that kind of structure is quite standard. I think my advice would be to weight it at the top end rather than what we did, was we weighted it at the kind of the middle level. So by weighting it in the middle, when I say about weighting it in the middle, you know, if you hit $15K a month, you might be at 20% commission. And there might be like a 20-25, if you're at 15-20K a month, that's too much in that kind of middle section. So my advice would be to weight it to the top end. So maybe you have a desk cost, for example, desk cost could be 2.5K a month typically. So in the first 2.5K, you don't earn any commission because that's covering your operational costs. You know, over 2.5K, maybe between 2.5K and say 7.5K, you earn 10% over the $7,500. Let's say you move up to a 15% and that 15% could be between $7,500 and $15,000. So you're kind of, you know, 15%, maybe 12.5%, that kind of level there. When you go over $15,000 a month, you can then go right now into 17, 18, push it up to 20, maybe $20,000 upwards and upwards. Those are the kind of structures that I think would be more sustainable. We weighted it too much in the middle. So we were like, yeah, 15K, 25%. Everyone's like, you know, you know, and it was great, it was great. But it then created this culture of we don't really need to do 30K, we don't need to do 40K, you know. Yeah, once the ones that did, did— I mean, don't get me wrong, Jake, George, Sarah, fuck me, they, they did 30, 40, 50 in some months, 60K. I think I paid them spent one month, I think I paid him like $27,000, $28,000 or something, you know. So they saw the mentality in it. But yeah, I think you have a commission structure that's weighted at the top end, not the bottom or middle. Put a desk cost in, you know, $2,500 a month that covers your costs and then start it about 10%, you know, until you get to say $15,000 a month and then you can go kind of 15% above, you know. Just be sensible with it. And quarterly bonuses, you know, you'll have it— say you do $15K a month, you're at $45K a quarter. Set a bonus at like, you know, 5 or 6% over the quarterly number. So if your quarterly number's $45K and you do $55K, you're going to get 5 or 6% of the $10K over the quarterly number. So again, you're not double-bubbling on the commission. And then I think do lunch clubs, you know, do lunch clubs. You know, you can do little things like we used to do, like a monthly, you know, breakfast that will cost like 30 quid for anyone to hit the monthly target. Little gestures. But quarterly achievers, you know, lunch club is where you take out the winners. And you can even set a level on that. You know, you have to be at 110% of your quarterly number to qualify. You know, it doesn't have to be 100%. Push the bar, you know. I think people are doing the, um, you know, the President's Clubs, the holidays, that kind of thing, you know. Set the bar on it. Make it feel like you're winning something. Again, we, we made it all too easy, you know. It wasn't, it wasn't like people were winning. So make it hard, you know, right? The President's Club, you've got to be at 130% of your annual number. Make— and make it your invoice number, not your sales number, because then it's actual money in the bank.

Yeah, love that, Tom. Final question, mate. What are you most proud of during your journey of running your own business and building it up? Is there anything that comes to mind?

Um, so I'm never happy, ever. And this is one of the things that I know about me. I'm never happy. So, um, I could have the best quarter. So our best quarters, we were doing like £600 grand a quarter, um, smashing it, you know, absolutely smashing. And I was never happy and I never celebrated, and I was then looking at next quarter and I was stressing out the next quarter, right? Yeah, we need to go up to £700, you know. So I'm, I'm never happy and I'm the biggest critic. I think, I think if I'm honest, and I have kind of reflected a bit on this, I think I'm genuinely happy and I'm genuinely proud of what we built in a very, very short space of time. And there's lots of people that, you know, worked for me, worked for us, that don't work for us anymore because we've now got into this route of subscription software. I generally look back on it and there was probably a 6-month period period, probably I would say beginning of '22. So I'd say the first 6 months of '22, it was just brilliant. You know, it was, the culture was great. We had really good people. We had really good teams. We were smashing numbers. We had 60 or 70 billing clients. We were having loads of fun. We were making the industry stand up and take notice of us. People were paranoid about what we were doing because the growth was so quick, the culture, the work ethic, just everything. There was a, I'd say, I'd say the first 6 months of '22, we had it nailed and it was great and people were earning shitloads of money. And, you know, again, I go back to Jake, George, Sarah, there's some others, Scott, um, they bought houses, you know. Wow. These were guys that were renting, you know, and they bought houses, um, and they got really nice cars and they went out and bought Rolexes. And it was that kind of thing. I used to look at that and I was like, this is, this is why I'm doing this. You know, this is, you know, and it was funny because I remember at a time I wasn't fucking wearing a Rolex. I wasn't driving the brand new bloody M4 Sport BMW, you know what I mean? But it didn't matter. It didn't matter. It was for me, you know, I've earned 150 grand a year, I've earned 170 grand a year, I've kind of had that. And for me it was like, you know what, I'm really enjoying seeing what these guys are doing. And I said, they bought houses, they were getting cars, they were getting married, they were, they were wearing Rolexes. It was just, for me, that was it. And that was the moment. And I look at that and I go, yeah, that's what made it worthwhile. Awesome. And yeah, and that for me was— there was a point when I saw that and I was like, yeah, this is everything I wanted.

That's so cool. Perfect note to end the podcast. May, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much for coming on and so much wisdom for other people that want to run a successful business. It's really valuable.

You know, it's a journey. And I think if people go into it naively, they can fail. But I think also people need to be honest with it. It's difficult. It's hard. You don't get it right. You know, I'm learning lots all the time. You know, I'm launching in a whole new different direction now. And a lot of what I did in the Evans Denham world, you you know, I'm taking into this world. And biggest advice, so I'll end it on this, because biggest advice to anybody is it's okay to fail, but fail quickly. And that's my biggest advice to anybody that's, that's, that's watching this. Fail quickly. And when you fail quickly, understand why you failed and learn from that failure. That's my biggest advice. If you keep failing and you keep failing for the same reasons, You know, that's insanity. If you're gonna fail, fail quick. Nothing wrong with failing. I failed loads of times, but I failed quickly and I learned from it and understood why I failed and I changed it moving forward.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.