How to Ditch Contingent and Win more Retained Work (Louise Archer)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secret to their success. Today's guest is the queen of retained search, Louise Archer. Louise helps recruiters who are just fed up with the contingent model. They're ready for a change and they want to transition to more retained work. Some of Louise's success stories are absolutely mental. We're talking about recruiters who are making hundreds of thousands of pounds, in some cases millions, in just a matter of months after ditching the contingent model and moving to retained. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about the benefits of retained search. We'll discuss the biggest obstacles that are stopping a lot of recruiters from winning more retained work. And finally, we're going to be discussing why some recruiters have been doing retained search completely wrong. If you're a recruiter and you want to unlock the power of retained search, I highly recommend that you stay and listen to this episode. It's going to be epic. So as usual, grab a cup of tea or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's jump into it, shall we? Hey Louise, how are you?

I'm really good, thank you very much. Um, I've just come back, as we were, uh, talking very briefly just then, from a, like, once-in-a-lifetime trip to Montana in the US. So I'm extremely good. How are you?

Yeah, very good. Your holiday sounds amazing. We should probably do a separate podcast and you can tell us all about that because it sounds like an insane trip. But yeah, yeah, I'm very good. Um, me and Ben have known of you for many, many years, like a lot of our guests that we invite on. We've known of you for many years. We know you are the absolute queen of retained search and everything to do with retained search, so we wanted to get you on so you could share your wisdom around that in particular, because I think it's a bit of an interesting subject for recruiters, especially people that want to get into retained search. So, um, thank you for joining us today, really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for inviting me. Likewise, I've seen you guys around. I really like what you do, love your stuff, and I'm Really happy and pleased to be here.

Awesome. We always start the podcast with this question, Louise, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or piece of software? What would you say?

I'd say in business it's a mindset, definitely, because— and, and what that is for me is it's really easy to lose sight when you're, when you're dealing with, you know, either running the business or, um, or serving clients or serving your team or, um, or setting up process and structure that you, you lose sight of what I believe keeps the compass and the direction of, of achieving your goals. Um, and, and for me, what sets— what resets that and helps me stay with the overall direction in the right direction is doing the right thing. And I always come back to that and that's what served me so well, doing the right thing by my team, doing the right thing by my clients, doing the right thing by my business. And if you do the right thing, you can't really go far wrong and the money comes, success comes as a result of that by consistently doing that. And that's what, what's worked, that's what works for me.

Absolutely love that, Louise. I feel like me and Ben have been through a similar journey this year with our company and kind of realigning ourselves with our North Star. So I feel like we're living that emotion that you just spoke about right now and trying to, trying to realign ourselves and follow that North Star. And we're so much happier as a result, and everything seems to be working with us as opposed to against us now. So it's really interesting that you bring that up.

Um, I love that. That's great. Good.

Maybe we could start off with I'm sure there's a lot of people that do know what retained search is, Louise, and there's probably a lot of people that don't. Maybe you could just explain to people what is retained search, how does it differ from other ways of working?

Yeah, it's such a good question. Um, and the funny thing is it's such a simple question, and it's a question that a lot of people, a lot of recruiters, don't actually know the answer to. And that if you asked a recruiter, a recruiter that isn't familiar or accustomed with it, you'd probably get loads of different answers. And normally it's associated with money. Normally it's, well, it's an upfront payment. That's normally one of the first answers. And that's where most people go wrong when they're selling it because that's their belief. Because if your belief is that it's an upfront payment, then how on earth are you going to sell that to a client? And that's normally where most people struggle. And that's the first stumbling block is the perception of and the understanding of what retained search is. So it's a great question. Some people say like it's, you know, headhunting or they say like it's, you know, more in-depth or some people say that it's not any different. It's just like a scam or and then how— I mean, you're never going to sell that if that's your perception. Jesus, you're going to struggle. So, so it is a really important question and where we start as well. So for me, and it's different, I think, for everybody in terms of their belief, but for me, retained search is financial commitment from a client which allows us to put in place a robust search process and importantly to commit to making sure that we reach a result. That's what retained search is for me.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense, and it's nice to have someone define it because, as you said, Louise, when I've spoken to lots of different recruiters, everyone has a different opinion of what retained search is. So it's really— I really love that definition, and thank you for, for sharing that. Um, me and Ben are really interested, how did you get into doing retained search specifically and specializing in just retained search? Why did you decide to go down that, that line of work specifically?

I didn't decide, um, per se to begin with. It was a necessity. What happened was I was working for a firm who was predominantly contract-led. It was a big contract business, and the perm or direct hire business was a kind of, um, little sister, ugly sister arguably they used to call it, um, to the main business, and it wasn't doing particularly well. The business then had interest. The main business had interest in buyers and was going through a transaction. And the valuers of the business had said they'd analyzed the whole business and put a value on the, on the company, on the contract side of the business, millions, millions, millions, but said that the Perm business was valueless basically because the forecasts were so unpredictable. It was all contingent in nice niche, interesting locations globally. Um, but it was all contingent, and what they were forecasting and what they did every month was so wildly different that the valuers had said it's— it doesn't matter. Either you shore up the revenue— and still it was about £5 million, so this isn't— this isn't negligible. Um, and but they said you either shore up the revenue so the forecasts line up with the actuals, or you kill it.

Wow.

And I'd just come back from the US, done about 3 years in, in the US for them. And I just got sat with a guy and we got tasked with that mission, basically shore up the revenue. You've got 12 months to do it. Luckily, this guy was a— can I swear, or is this not? I won't because I've just caught myself doing it, but just in case I find myself doing it again, but it was a rock star and he had some experience in retained, not much, but, but some, and knew enough about it to know that that was a route that we could go down. And we, we started going out and talking to clients, and, and he suggested that we can solve the problems that they were facing with a retained solution because it was very niche. Some of the locations were awkward and we weren't filling a lot of the positions. And he's like, if you make a commitment to us, then we can make sure that we do fill it. So it was very rudimentary and it was pretty, we kind of built the airplane as it was in the air together. But as soon as I'd seen that happen once, I was like, fuck's sake, man, why didn't we do this ages ago? And that was it. We just started winning projects like, okay, we got to the stage where it was a bit of a problem because we won a lot of retained work and then the problem became delivering it. But the fundamental principle of converting something from contingent to retained for me was like, that was it, that was done, and I was never going to work contingently again. No way. So yeah, it wasn't something that, um, that I chose to do. I just— but once I saw it, and then it takes a bit of refining, you know, that the principle of give me some money and I'll guarantee to fill it is dangerous, and I've been down the route of that being a very difficult model to, and not sustainable as a model. And now I know more, and I've learned so much more about retained search. What I know now, what the balance is between what you sell and what, what you promise and what you actually deliver, and how important it is to get that right. So I've learned loads since then, but once that had been introduced to me and I started then working with clients with financial commitment, And I saw how different the relationship was, how, yes, your revenue suddenly becomes forecastable providing you do what you say you're going to do. You can guarantee that you're going to get this stage and then this stage in, then and then and then. And once you've got 3 or 4 projects all lining up, then you can predict your revenue. Anyway, long story short, that division now does $12 million a year. Well, that was last year when I last heard the recent count, all in retained revenue.

They didn't— That's crazy.

Far from it.

That's amazing.

Very successful.

I had no idea that a contingent model was less— I mean, it kind of makes sense now that you're saying it out loud, but when you're selling a business or valuing a business, I had no idea that that difference made, you know, was so stark. That's actually quite interesting. Um, you mentioned something interesting because I think, I, I think retain work— I'm not, not from a recruitment background, but it makes sense, you know, retain work makes complete sense. But I think it's interesting to let people know about the danger of retain because you mentioned there that there's some, you know, there's some— I'm guessing there's some amazing positives, but you can also go down some dangerous roads if you don't know what you're doing. So how do you know when you're going down, you're doing retain search in the wrong way or you're going down dangerous territory? Maybe you could elaborate on that if you don't mind.

Yeah, I mean, I think, well, I experienced it for myself. Firsthand of, and because I was selling and delivering, you feel it. You feel it firsthand then when you've overpromised something or you've committed to something that isn't realistic, or the way in which you've managed the expectation, it doesn't line up with what you're actually able to deliver. And I'm a I'm quite a moral person and I don't like being in a situation where I'm letting people down and you don't realize the revenue at the end of it. That's, it is a dangerous road. But worse than that, and what I see now all the time and I have seen since I've been helping other people, is that once you've been in that situation, you don't want to do it again. So you don't then sell another one. So there's so, so, so many people that I've met over the years and continue to meet that have either won a retainer and then struggled to deliver it, or they've seen someone win a retainer and then struggle to deliver it, or they just haven't sold it in the first place because they don't really know what it is and they're afraid of not being able to deliver it. That actually, that in itself is one of the biggest barriers to people, to people doing it. And this fear of going down this dangerous road actually stops a lot of people. And a lot of people have been down it and been burnt by it and like go, no, I'm never doing retained again, that's a in Chalice. Wow, it's big. Like, it's one of— yeah, it's big. It stops— it's the difference between winning the odd retainer, which a lot of people have done and do, and becoming a fully fledged search consultant that's really happy and comfortable and has a sustainable model that they love and they're confident about taking it out to their clients, is getting this balance right between what you commit to and what you and what you deliver.

Yeah, it sounds like, Louise, that you were one of those recruiters that experienced retained in not— in maybe a slightly more negative way, like it ended up becoming too much. How did you then transform your mindset or your strategy to then go back in to retain? Retain? So what was—

it wasn't a— it, you know, maybe it sounded— it was overwhelming, let's put it that way. Where we, where we got to— and the market's a little bit different now— but where we got to, you know, imagine the We weren't in the tech space, but it happened in that space too, where clients are so desperate to find people that if you're saying give me X number of thousand pounds upfront and I will guarantee to find you someone, they'll do it. You're like, you're basically offering homeless people houses. Like they were so desperate for people that they would take that punt because it would mean the difference between selling for 350 million and not because they haven't got the right people in place. So it was worth it. And so it was very, very easy to sell. But yeah, the challenge comes in making sure that you've got a delivery model that supports that. So for us, it was overwhelming, but we figured it out. We figured it out. And that division is, you know, is very well established now. And how and what it looks like, I don't know whether that's the question or whether you want me to kind of go on.

No, I guess, I guess I'm wondering for the recruiters, because I've heard this before as well, a recruiter telling me, some of my previous clients saying, I've tried retain before and it doesn't work. And I guess I want to know from your perspective, for someone that's tried it and it hasn't worked, where do they go from there? Like, how do they— what do they do from that point onwards?

So for me, and I can't, you know, speak for what, what everybody should do really, because I don't believe there's a right or wrong, you know, um, there's lots of different ways of, of doing it, and there's lots of different ways of dealing with, and, and lots of different models and ways of having a retained solution. That commits to different things. The way, if I start at the top and kind of then work backwards, you know, the way that the big firms, your Shrek firms, your Spencer Stewarts and Hybrids, you've heard that term before, you're familiar with the— yeah, the way they do it is they commit to executing the search. So you as a client will pay a third of total compensation, typically broken into 3 stages. The first stage is payable on commencement of the work, the second is payable 30 days later, and the third is payable 30 days after that. And then the balance— so there's a fourth— is paid once the actual remuneration to the candidate that's accepted the position is known. So just think about that for a second. The first stage is paid on commencement, the second on shortlist— sorry, the second, the 30 days, and the third, 30 days after that, regardless of whether anybody has been found or appointed or not. So I met and have met over the years lots of clients that have paid all 3 stages of a third of estimated total comp and not got anybody. But their job is to execute the search. If there isn't anybody or the client chooses not to hire anybody, it doesn't matter. They've still done their job. They are commissioned, and the scope of work is to carry the search out regardless and are paid the full fee regardless. So that's the dream, right? And in reality, for us mere mortals, it doesn't always wash, like, with a client to say that, well, you pay me to pay— you carry out the search whether you find someone or not. That's not my problem. But That's the way they do it, right? So, and there's lots of things in between. At a very basic level, it might be that, and I've seen an engaged model work really well where it's just a percentage of the fee on commencement, and then the remainder of the fee paid on accepted offer to the candidate, right? That means though, that let's say it's a third, two-thirds, two-thirds of that fee is still contingent on you making the placement. So it's not fully retained. So a search firm will operate fully retained, so all of the fee is paid regardless of whether an appointment is made. And at the opposite end of the scale, where you've got pure contingent, where the whole fee is completely based on whether you make a placement or not, you step away from that is maybe a third, two-thirds, where two-thirds is contingent on making the placement. And somewhere in between, there's a third, a third, a third, which is a third on commencement, a third on agreement of shortlist, and then the final third paid on acceptance of the position. So only a third is paid, only a third is contingent on making the placement, and then there's even areas in between those two.

Interesting, interesting. So I can't remember what the question was, but yeah, no, so what, what I got from that, Louise, is people who have tried retained and maybe have— it hasn't worked out, there are many other ways to execute it, and so they should be flexible with how they try it again. It's not that retain didn't work. It's that there are many ways to execute it and you should try to execute it in a different way. Is that kind of where you were going with that?

Yeah, absolutely. What I mean is don't be frightened that the answer to retain is you take a fee and then you have to promise to deliver, because that's often where people have a bad experience. But actually is to manage the expectation of yourself, your ability, but also of what is, what exists in the market. To be able to deliver and form a retained solution that you can commit to. So what I like to do is to commit to the financial commitment. As I said at the beginning, the financial commitment from the client allows us to put in place a robust search process, meaning that we can commit to making sure that we reach a result. That result, I like to put my client in the position where they are 100% confident that they are making their decision from all of the talent that is available to them in the market at this time. Whether they choose to actually hire that person or not is up to them, but my job is to put them in a position where they are making the best decision that's available to them in the market at this time. And that's what I'm committing to do, and I feel comfortable that come hell or high water, I can do that. So if you've had a bad experience with retained, look at why, what went wrong. And normally it's you've committed to do something that then isn't possible because you've got all these other factors at play, like the client just decides, I just don't like them, or no, I've changed my mind, um, and, or they might not exist. Those people might not want to come and work for your client right now. So have a think about what actually you can commit to and what the best case scenario that is actually feasible for you to commit to and build your retain solution on that rather than something that's unrealistic. Yeah, and that's what helped me to get really confident with what I was delivering.

Love that, Louise. Really interesting answer. Um, I know you coach a lot of people, Louise, and you probably work with tons of recruiters now. I'm interested from your perspective, from the recruiters that come through the program and absolutely smash it and start getting loads of retain work compared to others that maybe come through, get results, but don't smash it as much. What's the biggest difference? Is it mindset? Is it niche? Is it experience? Is it branding? Is it, you know, a combination of all of the above? What's your feeling?

Yeah, it's a good question. And it's sometimes it's difficult to spot because we get asked that a lot. You know, who should I put on the program? Who's most likely to do well and what whether it's our program or whether, you know, you're just encouraging someone to do, you know, to do more retained work, there are a few things in common. There are a few things in common that I see time and time again. One is that the more pissed off you are with the contingent model, the quicker and the more likely you are to adopt the retained model. And the more likely you are to be successful at it. So often the people that are the most jaded when we first meet them are the people that, that come out the happiest and living the best lives because they're so ready. Whereas contingent recruiters that are already having a nice time, they're like, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, it's a bit of a change in, in ways. I'm just, I'm just going to carry on doing what I'm doing because it's easier. And so even though they've got massive potential and yes, they could be retained they could fly to retain consultants, but it isn't enough of a push factor to actually change their ways. So it's a bit, but it's the same principle as the clients really, because when you're seeing a client and if they're saying like the contingent model is brilliant, we get what we want when we want it and it's an enjoyable process, why would they retain you? And sometimes you have to say, well, okay, carry on doing what you're doing and they have to experience the contingent model a little bit more. Before they then go, actually, I'm a bit tired of this now. Have you got a better way of doing it? And then they're ready to be converted to retain. It's the same with consultants. Like, some people just aren't ready yet. I'd got to the stage where, you know, at the same time that this was happening in the business, I was— I'd become a single parent, and the children— it was a lot. And working into the night as I used to, you know, spinning 10 different jobs at the same time to make the money, had started to become unfeasible for me. So I was really ready to adopt the retain model. I was like, hallelujah, like, why didn't nobody tell me about this before? And so it was just a kind of perfect storm for me. And for a lot of people, it's like that. Sometimes they're just really ready. They're that jaded with it all. And so that would be the first thing. The other thing is that I think it comes back to what I was saying at the beginning, that if Some people are just out for money. Some people just want to make the money, and, you know, and that's fine, like, that's cool, we're all different. Some people actually care about what they're doing and they want to do a good job and they want to leave something in a better state than they found it, and that makes them feel good and that gives you satisfaction. I'm one of those people. I get satisfaction from leaving something in a better state than I found it, and that makes me feel good. And that's, you know, the money is a kind of byproduct of that for me, and yes, it's a nice to have and it enables me to make other people's lives better, but The people who are just in it for the money and that's it generally don't do as well with retained because there's a change in dynamic in relationship with the client when you work on a retained basis where it isn't about making a placement, it's about doing what's best for the client. And to do that, you need to work in partnership and actually give a shit about their business and the outcome of the project. Rather than just be trying to blame people, hoping that you're going to get a fee. So those are the two main things that people have in common. Generally, if they're not experienced enough, it's harder. You know, very inexperienced consultants, um, don't adapt to retain that well because they still think that recruitment is finding jobs for people.

Yeah.

Um, which of course we all know isn't.

Of course. Really interesting.

Yeah, and I know you get the odd one that is very set in their ways, you know, somebody that's very, very ingrained, you know, 20, 30 years that— I mean, we move quite a few people that are very ingrained in their ways, but some can be just too— the path's too well trodden.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we experience the same thing as well. I'm really interested, um, for the recruiters that have been maybe doing contingent for, you know, a long time and then make the shift to retain, you could probably speak about your own experience as well, uh, Louise. How did life change apart from the obvious signs of like more predictable revenue? How does work change when you get more retained? I'm just interested from, from your perspective or from people you've worked with.

Yeah, it's weird because we're writing an implementers module for the course at the moment, which is new, and, um, helping people to implement it in, in bigger businesses. And Jordan and I were talking about Aircut and we just got off, off track and he he was saying how different it was for him and we were just thinking back and it's just a world apart. I mean, the biggest thing is, yes, of course, the forecastable revenue, being able to know what's coming in, that changes your behavior, the way that you, the way that you feel about your whole life, like starts to become calmer and more assured and more confident. But you also end up with a partnership with a client where, like I said about, you end up working with the client. And that was totally fucking alien to me. I was so used to just being on the other side of servicing, almost taking orders and then fulfilling them. And it's the opposite of that. Like, you literally— it's so weird how suddenly it changes into you feel like you're shoulder to shoulder with the client and the client's saying, what do you think? And you're saying, well, here's where we are at the moment. This is what's happening. This is what we're finding. This is the This is the evidence of where we are. Where would you like us to go next? It's like an us and a we all of a sudden. And somebody, one of the experts in our mastermind, put it really nicely not long ago, and he said it's like the Buddhist saying, and I don't know the Buddhist saying, but where you become a slave, you become, you both become slaves to the problem. And that was life-changing, like career-changing for me, because you develop these partnerships with these very senior stakeholders and then you start to realize they're only human and you start talking their language and then you start to you can use that language with other people and you feel comfortable then opening up conversations with very senior C-suite people just because you're working in partnership with them and you know how they speak and the things that matter to them. And it raised my game into places that I never thought I'd be at, ever. So it was completely transformational for me and it is for a lot of the people that I work with. They say the same sort of thing. You end up like I ended up. Then doing things like talent mapping, talent pipelining, talent insight studies that I didn't even know what any of that shit was. I'd never even heard of it. I didn't even know any of it was a thing. So yeah, it's completely transformational.

That's so cool. That's awesome. It's really interesting because it sounds like one of the most important factors for success is, is mindset. You mentioned two things and both of them are quite mindset related. Um, if we were to go Because I know mindset is a difficult one to shift, if you know what I mean. I think people coming into our program, it's like we can definitely accelerate their journey, but if they're already in that mindset, it's very difficult to shift them out of that mindset. So if we were to go into like a more practical level, um, Louise, if there was like one factor or one particular thing on a practical basis that would make the biggest difference to success with your model of getting retained work? Is there one? Is there something that you could put it down to?

I mean, it's kind of like wrapping up everything that we were talking about and, and summarizing it in that you can do it, basically. You don't need to change the market that you're in, you don't need to change yourself. It is only about believing that and understanding that retained solution isn't something magical and mystical, or that you're not gonna be able to do. It's a solution to the problems that the contingent model isn't solving in In the first instance, that's all it needs to be. I guess there's more. Yes, there's more. There's C-suite and executive and pipelining and all that malarkey. There's loads more once you learn the concept of what retain solution is. But to begin with, all it needs to be is a solution to the problems that the contingent model isn't solving.

Really interesting. What I get from that, um, is, is maybe surrounding yourself with— I'm guessing your community does that very well— is surrounding yourself and observing other people that are actually doing it. And getting that epiphany to say, oh, actually, if he can do it or she can do it, then I can do it as well.

Um, definitely, yeah. And that is a big part of it. And I didn't realize the value of that, um, until, you know, we set the community up and, and they started showing us how that helps. And actually saying it, I wouldn't have been able to do it had it not been from seeing other people saying, I've just done this and it works, because they might be too scared or whatever. Yes, it is partly that, and I guess it also comes back to how frustrated you are with the contingent model as well. Like, if actually you're having a good time with what you're doing, now is not probably the right time. So don't try and push yourself into doing something when it, it doesn't feel like the right, you know, the right time for you. Like, when you're ready, you'll know, and when you are ready then there are places that you can go to make it easier for yourself.

Yeah, love that, Louise. I would love— because I was looking at a few of your pieces of content before you came on the podcast, and I would love to go into the sales call a bit more because I feel like, correct me if I'm wrong, the magic of— I know you said it wasn't mystical or magical, but the— it feels like most of the action goes on in the sales call with retained. You know, it's, it's It's— and what I would love to know is what's the difference in a sales call when you're pitching for retain versus contingent? Like, what are the diff— what is— because I know a lot of recruiters are very used to taking orders, you know, jumping on the phone, taking orders, and not really asking questions or dissecting problems or anything to do with that. They just think recruitment is recruitment, I'm here to fill a role, when actually there's a lot more to it. And when I learned that, my whole sales game changed. So maybe I can throw it back to you, Louise. What, how do you, how does the sales call change with retained?

It is funny that you say that because there is a big difference. And the biggest difference that I notice, well, there's a few big differences actually, but one of the biggest differences is, is the diagnostic in the first place. And you're right, it's so tempting. And the path of the contingent recruitment call is they say, I need an X. You say, oh right, what are you looking for? You get the criteria of what they're looking for, and then, okay, great, I'll go and find that for you. And, um, and basically you go and do that. The bit that, that doesn't happen generally in a contingent diagnostic or a, uh, a job intake, which is what I often hear it called, um, is the diagnostic around what, what actually works for them at the moment. What methods do they use at the moment, and do they, do they work? Because if they do work, then they should, they should carry on doing that. And if this is a new client to you, out of interest, then why are you talking to me and not just doing what you normally do? That's one of the kind of angles on it. But also, what I have found is in asking those questions around, okay, so let me just establish what methods you'd normally use and how well they go for you to make sure that we're, we're going to prescribe the right way of working. What do you— what methods do you use? Are you working with external partners? Have you ever worked with them? On what basis? And how's it gone? Do you get what you want when you want it? Is it an enjoyable process? Most people look at you like you're a fucking alien if you say that. They're like, what? Enjoyable? Like they're not having a good time, most people, whether it's quality or quantity or being bombarded or just being overly sold to or whatever. And then you can dig into, okay, well, what is it? Is it one of those scenarios? Is it that you're not getting what you want? Is it timing? Is it that you just— most people hate recruiters because of whatever is going on. But the mistake that as a contingent recruiter, not mistake, that what we're tempted to do is say, oh, well, we'll be different. We'll do it differently because we're different. But actually, you're not different because you're still constrained by the contingent model. And the contingent model does not allow you to carry out a piece of work in the way a retain model does. If you don't have any financial commitment from your client, you cannot carry out the kind of work that you can do when you do. It's as simple as that. You can't because you've got to juggle 10, 15 different other things because you never fucking know which horse is going to come in, right? You never do. Anything could happen. It's too risky. So with the best will in the world, you cannot commit to putting in place a robust process and making sure that we reach a result without any financial commitment from the client. It's too commercially risky. You wouldn't have a business if you did that on a contingent basis, and nobody can. That's the thing. So you can't be that different. So it isn't you or the other recruiters that's broken, it's just that model hasn't worked for them. In that situation. So once you've diagnosed that and they've said to you, yeah, it's been awful, we've been working with contingents, and it's a dance that you need to play quite carefully to find out what's happening. You know, what methods do you normally use? How does that go? Okay, do you get what you want? Okay, great. And do you mind me asking what basis you've been engaging with those agencies? What do you mean? Well, do you retain them? No, no, no, of course not. Bingo. They've just admitted that they're not having a good time, it's on a contingent basis, and it's not working for them, and they're not having a good time. So it doesn't make sense for you to recommend that you do the same thing again. Nor would it be logical for them to do that. So once you explain, well, we work with our clients in different ways depending on the circumstances, and in many cases the contingent model works just fine, you know, in lots of situations. If it's easy to fill, straightforward, if there's lots of talent available, that's great. But in lots of situations it doesn't. If it's niche, if it's, if it's in an awkward location, if it's senior, or for whatever reason the contingent model's fallen down, which is why in those situations we always work in partnership and we apply retained methodology where we put in place a process and commit to making sure that we reach a result. I'd like to tell you we've recently carried out a piece of work, client in the same situation as you. Here's how it went. Here's how we did. Will you let me demonstrate the effectiveness of this way of working? And what Jordan does, and he says, he gives lots, lots of advice to people kind of just starting that transition to not doing a diagnostic to doing it, which can be the biggest difference in the call, is at the beginning of the call to say, 'Okay, I'd like to start by asking you a few questions because we work with our clients in different ways depending on the circumstances. So I want to ask you a few questions to work out which way is going to be the best way for us to work together.' And then he asks, 'How do you normally go about this? How does it normally go for you? What methods do you normally use?' And then, of course, 'What do you need? What's important? Do you need just a bum on a seat? Is it critical? Is it urgent? Does it matter if it sits empty?' And diagnoses it fully to then be able to say, Okay, yes, I can help you. Let me walk you through how.

Really interesting. Interesting. Um, sorry, Ben, go ahead. Don't worry, we made a rule, uh, Louise, that we have to ask one question each. And because I think I already asked one, so yeah, fail today. Before this, it was always us jumping over each other to ask questions. Um, but I think I've just forgotten mine. Um, let me come in. Ironically. Yeah, go ahead, Sam. I'm really curious, um, Louise, and I know we're coming to the end of the pod, so probably only have time for one more, one or two more questions. But, um, how much does branding play a part in getting retained? Because I know just from my experience that when people get inbound leads, say clients coming to them, um, they find it a lot easier to negotiate, as opposed to if they're going to, to the clients, the power is slightly different. So what's your experience with people branding themselves? Does that play a part in retained or not so much? What's your, what's your feeling?

It helps. It definitely helps. Yeah, it definitely helps. Whether it's corporate branding or personal branding, the personal branding is really powerful because of the narrative that you can, that you can share, you know, across quite a personal level. LinkedIn is not Facebook, but it is quite a personal platform. And you can become authentic and human and put out a message and talk from experience to a wide audience on LinkedIn. And that helps, that helps hugely. Yeah. Corporate branding, you know, on the one hand, it's really nice if when a company is checking you out, they can see that you're a professional outfit and that you're talking about carrying out niche and critical hires or even executive work. Definitely. And whether that's on your website or whether you're building case studies that you can then share with your clients that demonstrate how you carry out this piece of work. But having said that, when I first started selling it, I was selling it from a contract business that didn't even have perm or direct hire on the website, never mind retained. So to start, you can manage, you can manage with you know, with what you've got. But the further you go, the more the branding personally and from a company perspective will help.

Really interesting. Um, this is actually a really good question, so I think you wrote this one, Sam. But I— we've spoken to quite a few people that have been through your program, all positive feedback. And I have to say, Louise, you've just got a great reputation from everyone I've spoken to who have been through your program. So kudos to that, because it's not easy to get that reputation.

Well, thank you to my team, my amazing team. I couldn't do it without them.

Absolutely. Um, but one of the interesting things that a lot of them said is, you know, before you go hunting out for new businesses, you can actually convert a lot of existing customers, which I found really interesting and just a really clever way to go about it. Could you maybe tell us more about that way of working?

Yeah, sure. I mean, it's where most people get the quickest wins with us. You know, you'll see we put stuff out and people go, oh my God, I've just won a project in like 2 days. You know, just watch the first module and and, you know, it's a couple of days or it's a week, and things can happen really, really quickly. Things change really quickly. The first piece that they do with us is mindset, and you guys are right, like, mindset is so much, it's so fundamental to everything, really, you know, I'm with you. And so that's the first reason they often come out of that and go, oh my gosh, I can just have this conversation with this client I'm already working with. And it can change the path that we're going on. Only the other day we were doing a launch call with the team and the guy said, I've just watched module 1 and I've realized that the position that I'm working on at the moment, I've been working on it for like 6 weeks. It's really fucking difficult. It's really talent short, but I've got 5 other positions that I'm working on. So I'm about to tell my client I'm really sorry, but I can't. I could say to him, you know what, here's what we've done. This is where we're at. I can help you reach a result, but I'm going to need some financial commitment from you in order to be able to do that. And I'm like, There you go. Go and do that. Guess what? Message in the community. I said it and he said yes. Now what do I do? Like, so yeah, it's remarkably easy once you start to see it as a solution to the problems that the contingent model isn't solving. You start to see the problems as opportunities instead of thinking, oh, that's a ball ache, I want to get rid of that one, or just that client's a pain, or that position is really difficult. You start to see that as a gold mine. You start to turn, like, you know, I used to hunt on LinkedIn or job boards for the most recent job. Turn it around, you know, and so everything starts to change a little bit. And I'm not saying that's where you want to end up, right? Dealing with the crap difficult jobs is hard, and that's not where you want to be longer term, but that's what will get you started. And once you've got started with the Tamed and you see that it can solve problems, then you start to be able to solve bigger problems with it, and then you start to be moving up into a different realm. So yeah, it is, it's true, it can be easier. But then having said that, it can be easier to win new business because they've got no preconception about how you work and they're not going to say, yeah, but you just always work like this before and, you know, can't you just keep going? Or can't you just, you know, because they don't have that preconception. So it can be easier to win new business and some people find that's the easiest route for them. But We encourage you to do both, you know, over the course of the program, and lots of people find that's the quickest way.

Awesome. Louise, we are at the end of the pod. Thank you so much for coming on. I feel like the biggest thing that I got from this whole conversation is demystifying, uh, Retain, and I think you did a brilliant job of that and just made it sound very logical, straightforward, and like the best solution. So thank you for that, and thank you for sharing your wisdom. It was a pleasure to have you on.

Oh, thank you, Sam. That's great. And thank you, Ben. It's been so nice to be with you. Thank you very much for having me. I hope it's helpful for people.

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