How to Retain Your Clients in Recruitment (94% of this guy's clients buy again)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Callum Lyle. Callum is the director of Add Some Zest, and he's on a mission to change the perception of recruitment, and his customer service reflects this. 94% of clients have retained them. They achieved a +89 NPS score in 2023, and they have countless positive reviews online. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about redefining what good service in the recruitment industry looks like, the power of feedback from clients and candidates, and why finding the right customers for your business is so bloody powerful. So as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hey Callum, how are you, my friend?

Very well, thank you, sir. Very well. How are you, sir?

Very good. Thank you for coming on the pod. I've seen you on another pod, a few other pods. I've also been watching your videos, and I have to say I was telling you this off camera. Recruiters don't do video, full stop. A lot of them are scared of it. Not only are you doing video, but your videos are really high caliber, great production quality, and really funny as well. I just watched one before coming on with you and it made me laugh. I think you're like, yeah, oh God, don't get me started on that.

That, that, that comment or that, that kind of just me jumping and going, yeah. And, and then saying on another podcast stupidly that I wouldn't sell the business for 50 million has had lots lots of people approaching me either doing that, yeah, or asking me those questions and saying I'm nuts for not selling a business for £50 million. But we can go into that in a bit more detail.

Yeah, that's going to be one of the first questions, uh, yeah. I wanted to get you on because you, you've had a brilliant career, you're running an amazing company for various different reasons. So thank you for joining us today, mate, really appreciate it.

No worries, thanks for having me.

Um, so I've got to start with the first question because when I heard this, it was so different to how I would expect other recruitment owners to respond. And this was You recently said on a podcast, if someone walked through the door and offered you $50 million for Add Some Zest, you said you wouldn't take it.

What—

why is that?

Um, I think— and we can, we can kind of tap into my kind of career journey and my, my experience and everything that's led me to that conclusion, um, uh, in this conversation. But I feel that, um, I think it would be disingenuous, um, to, to kind of take that. I, I've created Add Some Zest— we created Add Some Zest as a team to be really vision-led, kind of very much focused on our values, very much focused on getting the right teams and, and disrupting the recruitment market with a vision of kind of radically changing the perception of how a recruitment agency and company serves its people, customers, and communities. And That is our vision and that's what we're trying to achieve. I'm not trying to achieve a certain financial value. So to be completely transparent and candid, the goal is to scale, to sell. However, it would be silly unless I feel that we've kind of achieved that vision. I'm not accepting any, any money. That's not to say I wouldn't accept, I don't know, less than $50 million when that time comes, when I feel that I have achieved that, that, that vision and when we have as a team achieved that vision. But that is what we are here to do. That is what we wake up every morning trying to achieve. It's not to sell a business for £50 million, and it's not to make a £20K placement, a £30K placement. It is to change the perception of recruitment. And I think, um, why, why my experience and my journey to this point kind of plays into that, because I, I'm very conscious that I say that from a privileged position of having earned very well. Money isn't my biggest, um, motivator. But I feel money is an interesting point in our, in our industry, I think, because everyone focuses so much on money. Everyone focuses on what's next. No one's quite happy with where they are. And I think just learning what enough looks like to you as an individual is such an important part to get to. Like, I've got money in my bank that I don't spend now, so why do I need $50 million that I don't spend now? I'm happy. I'm really happy with where we are. I'm really happy with the team that I get to work with every, every day. So actually, money, money, and I'm really happy personally. I just got, just got married, have a wonderful life.

Congrats, by the way, mate.

Thank you very much.

Congratulations.

I have everything that I need to personally. So I'm not naive to think that money would, would impact that. And I think if I ever did believe that, as so many people do, I think mentally I'd go and I'd go a bit crazy. And you see so many people who are rich who aren't happy, um, and I, I think understanding what is enough at this point in my life, which might not be enough at the next point in my life, is a really nice place to get to. And being content with that is something I'm, I'm really proud to say that I am. So that, that's kind of where, um, I guess that answer would get to. But it's interesting how many people don't see the world through that lens, because I can tell you the amount of people that have called me crazy, the amount of people that have questioned that, the amount of people that have kind of stopped me in WeWork, out of WeWorks. I've had over 10 people in a week come up to me who didn't even know me, seeing that clip, um, saying that. So it's so mad. Yeah, it's funny. It's bonkers. But I'm more than happy to field it, field that.

Yeah, I think when you add context to everything, it makes so much more sense. Like, yeah, explaining that, I'm like, yeah. But also I feel like it— you saying no, Callum, also described a lot of your personality, which is not just about the money. It's about the purpose. It's about doing great work. It's about loving what you do. And I can feel that passion coming off you whenever I hear you speak. And I think that's difficult for people to wrap their head around because they're not thinking like that. A lot of people are in it for the money. They're not in it for the bigger picture of the purpose and loving their work.

Would you agree with that? I definitely agree with that, Simon. I think, um, I think a real skill of an entrepreneur or a business owner or a leader, the kind of deferring of gratification or the kind of the understanding that doing what you're doing today will get to where you want to get to in a certain period of time, but it doesn't need to necessarily be achieved in the next month, quarter, year. And I think that's a really important skill. And that's probably why I feel how I feel. It's the same as like if you're, if you're a football fan or an actor or whatever, there's so many different things that if Erling Haaland or whoever was to sign his contract with Man Man City and they were just to give him the Golden Boot and give him the Premier League title and give him the Champions— I, I don't believe he'd be happy. That, that, that, that, that, that trophy, that accolade, whatever. In the same way that someone who— Leonardo DiCaprio never won an Oscar or whatever until a certain point, just gets an Oscar but doesn't necessarily feel that he has done the work that has contributed to that. I, I don't think you get the same feeling. I don't think you get the kind of same And that's why 50 million might be a lovely point to sell the business for one day. But I want to feel that I have done what we set out to do, which is to change the perception of recruitment in exactly the same way that Leo DiCaprio— this is probably a crap analogy, but I feel like he had to deliver to a certain standard in order to win a Best Actor Oscar or whatever that looks like. So that's kind of That, that, that's what I feel, and I, I'm glad you noticed it, but I'm incredibly passionate about what we, what we do. And I mean, I'm an incredibly big believer that if we do do that, if we do deliver every single day for our customers, for our candidates, the money will never be an issue, not only for, for me, but any of our team. Because, um, and we've proven that, which we can go into in a bit more detail in regards to kind of client referrals, in regards to NPS scores and how that's linked to perhaps profit, um, I think it's, uh, I think it's a really important thing to understand and a really important thing for any recruiter to, to understand. Not necessarily focusing purely on the financial metrics, but understanding what they need to do to get there and, and having faith that if they do that, they will be successful and they don't need to worry about money or targets or whatever, because they will get there.

That's a— I think that brings us nicely on to the next question, which is Um, what do you think are the key characteristics of a top biller or a great recruiter? What do you think they need to be doing? What do you think— what characteristics do you think they need to have in order to get there?

That's a good question, but I think, um, I probably give a very different, different answer, and I— because I think I don't necessarily— I've never felt I fit the kind of stereotype of a, of a, of a kind of salesperson, I guess. And I'm very relationship focused. I'm very long-term with a view, few things, a real long-term viewpoint. So I think in terms of the 3 skills that I look for, integrity is really important to me. So being able to do the right thing when nobody's watching and to be able to do the right thing by the candidates and customers, even if it is not the right thing for them financially. It's very easy to encourage someone, persuade someone to go into a job It's very easy to get quick money in recruitment, but that doesn't necessarily equal long-term money. That doesn't necessarily equal retained partnerships. That doesn't necessarily equal happy candidates long-term or repeat custom there. So integrity is really important. Humility, I think, is really important to not become too high off your own kind of supply and to actually believe you're the best. I think kind of being humble and I'm such a believer in having no hierarchy. I believe that everyone's opinion is, um, is, is, is, is of equal value. And, and, um, I, I think that helps from— I mean, that, that sounds like a really idealistic statement, but I think that helps from kind of a pedestal type, type, um, analogy as well. That's always helped me speaking to CEOs or to chairmen of, of huge businesses. I don't necessarily— I see them as a human being. I don't see them as anything different to, um, to, to kind of a salesperson or a graduate just starting out within a business. And I think you can see that, and I think people like speaking to human beings who genuinely want to make a difference. So integrity, humility, and I think, um, probably coachability is incredibly important to me. And I think, um, if you've got, if you've got the right skills, if you, if you have got that integrity, if you are humble, um, and you're able to come into a business with the viewpoint of not necessarily, um, coming in and delivering and smashing the phones and, and, and, and just, just doing loads of activity, but actually understanding what good looks like, understanding that if you get better, just even if it's a wee bit every single day, that you will get there. Um, and as I say, I think my answer might be slightly different because I probably would give people a slightly longer, um, rope down themselves with, I guess, in terms of like that someone— because I, my first 6 months in recruitment, I wasn't necessarily that good, but then something from 6 to 12 months just suddenly meant I kind of went from the worst to, to, to, to, to one of the best kind of over overnight. And I think that was not due to what I learned and then just suddenly actioned in the second 12 months. I think it's all the little behaviors that I demonstrated in the first 6 months that if someone didn't take my offer, I still said congratulations. I still sent them a gift. I still made sure that I was doing the right thing. I was treating that person like a friend, and I was treating my customers like a friend, that I genuinely wanted the best interests for them, not for me. And I think if you do that and you're coachable and you get better every day and you learn from your mistakes and you always look at yourself as to where you can improve, you're, um, you're gonna have a really successful career in recruitment. Um, but I don't— equally, to the, to caveat that, I don't think that many businesses are set up that well to, um, kind of nurture those individuals because they might, they may, might end up not investing enough in training or development, but equally might have got rid of that person before they, before they really hit their stride.

Interesting. So what I got from that is Well, a number of things, but just because someone isn't performing instantly doesn't mean you just cut, cut ties and say, off you go. You actually nurture them and train them and give them a good enough chance to be successful. A good example is, you know, you said you took 6 months until you got into a stride, which is really interesting. Finally, I think I saw something else of a top builder who took a year, a year without making a deal. I think it was on another podcast that I saw recently. And then after that, he became one of the top billers in the company. But I was like, a year? That's, that's insane. But what a great lesson of discipline and perseverance, right? Of just like sticking with it. So yeah, really interesting.

So it is really hard as a business leader that I think that's why your kind of values and you've got to have a really clear idea of what good looks like from a behavioral perspective, because there's equally lots of people that, and without being too kind of cutthroat, if someone's not working there's loads of difficult decisions that I've had to make through my career. You're always best kind of pulling the Band-Aid off and just making that decision as quickly as you can from both parties. Because if something's not going to work, they're probably better finding a better kind of more aligned business to work for. But it doesn't surprise me, those, those businesses and those sort of examples then where someone has been successful after 12 months. But it's difficult for a business owner when you're paying out, of course, a full year's salary for an anomaly, I think. Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Um, Callum, I have to go back to the— you said 6 months, um, was really difficult in your first— I don't know when this was in your career, but then the, the next 6 months were much better. What happened during that? You know, what was the turning point? Was it all the work you did during the 6 months? Was it a fundamental change in mindset or behaviour? What happened?

It's a really good— I, I think it was, I think it was, um, It's a really— it's a really good question, and it's something I haven't reflected too much upon, and it's kind of a decade ago now. So, um, I think, um, it wasn't— it was no— it wasn't a change. It wasn't something I woke up overnight, um, doing. I, I think to some degree I remember being challenged, or not— people not thinking I was— I was that good, which is funny. So the kind of resilience needed to get through that period and constantly being told and constantly battling and constantly feeling I was doing the right thing, but maybe not getting the rewards. And that kind of resilience, I think, I think it sticks with you. I think I had maybe a bit more of a chip on my shoulder to keep doing and keep kind of proving that. Whereas if I'd gone in and I'd won a quick couple of deals and I'd won a client or two and I'd started being successful, I could kind of feel like I was running before I could walk type thing. And I might have cut a few corners and might not have been quite as diligent and as I don't know, it might have been quite as resilient and as persevered and really, really focused on that kind of personal development with, with, with myself. Because I might have just— there's lots of people that I've, I've had and worked with who have kind of come in, done, done a really good job really quickly, think they've made it, and then of course they, they, they don't know much. Because like, like all these things, it takes time, it takes experience to gain the necessary skills to be a really high performer. Um, so I think just maybe just serendipitously, just like, I didn't, didn't get the luck, luck and cut of the green, and then actually, but continue to do the right things, built resilience in that period, and just had trust that I was going to be successful. And if I wasn't, I was going to do it my way, and I was either going to kind of go out having proven that didn't work, or, or, um, or, or it working, which it, which it did, um, very fortunately.

Awesome.

It's really interesting.

I, I'm really impressed with your retention rate, um, Callum. It sounds like when you get a customer, you're able to keep the vast majority of them. 94% client retention rate.

Yeah.

So that's brilliant. And I have a feeling that there's a lot of recruiters that can't do that. So if you were to give a little quick lesson to a brand new recruiter, or maybe a recruiter that's been functioning that has a 50% retention rate, what are you doing differently from these other recruitment firms? How are you able to keep your customers so happy, do you think?

Um, a few, few different, few different things. Firstly, before you even bring that customer on board, understand what a good customer looks like and don't be afraid to say no to customers that don't fit that. So it's quite— it's easy to lose a customer that was never right for you in the first place. Um, so understand your ICP, understand what good looks like, say no, try and say no to more than you say yes to. Difficult, especially in this market when business is tough, when your manager's on your case to try and get over target, etc. And I guess that's probably the long-termism of my viewpoint with both consultants, but also just business and maybe not having money as the biggest driver, but being careful of the companies that you take on board, making sure that once they are on board, there's, there's a clear kind of outline of what good looks like in terms of the relationship and in terms of the partnership and making sure that you can get as much from them as they get from you in terms of kind of commitment, in terms of, in terms of time, making sure that they're actually serious about solving the problem they say they want to solve. So I think that that's it, the kind of the setup of that customer, ideally saying no to customers that just don't fit what you're looking for, but being able to say yes in a really compelling but structured way to the customers that do, do fit your ICP. And, um, once you find those businesses, making sure you've got some sort of tie-in. We, in our first year, um, we only worked with businesses on a kind of retained, um, basis. So, um, being able to kind of, um, be very clear, which, which does also rule out quite a lot of businesses. People won't be able to do that, and being able to kind of walk away from that happily. So it's being to do that. Asking questions about how that, that kind of partnership side, asking questions about how they want to, to be treated as a partner. How do they want to be served? What does, what does service look like to them? It's very easy for us to say our vision is to radically change the perception of how we serve our customers, but service is so different to different people. Some people want to be communicated via Email, phone, weekly updates, daily updates, whatever that looks like. And it's very easy as a recruitment business or recruitment consultant to think, yeah, I've nailed my process, I do everything perfect. But actually, that's not, that's not your choice, unfortunately. You can have a, you can have a value that's really customer-centric, but how Ben or Sam wants to be communicated with will be vastly different. So actually understanding that and being able to deliver against that and And putting service at the, the forefront of everything that you do, and understanding that not every candidate you're going to be speaking to is perfect. A good acid test of this— I work, work with a few recruiters who have kind of come in or send, send a CV. Yeah, just spoken to Joe Bloggs, I think they're perfect in this, that, or the other way. No one is perfect. Everyone will have pros, everyone will have cons. Being able to actually kind of view a candidate like you were the hiring manager and say, I don't actually think they're very good at this, that, and the other, either do they? But they are good at this, that, and this, and I know they were the 3 of the 5 things that you were looking for. Completely up to you, Ben, whoever, if you want to have a conversation, but that's my viewpoint. Kind of putting, giving yourself a seat at the table and being able to to kind of share the shade as well as the light when you're introducing a candidate. And when we go one step further with kind of a cultural assessment that says if someone is a good, bad, or needs exploring, good or great fit from a cultural perspective by looking at kind of personality preferences of the candidate and comparing that with a hiring manager, often that will come back as needs exploring if they're just not the right fit and being able to say actually, I wanted to share this with you before you make the decision. I'm not sure they're going to be the right fit, um, which is, which is, is alien to what a lot of recruiters— because they just want to get their bum on the seat, get that job filled, and get the 10K or whatever they've agreed to, to get it, to get it placed. But in order to, to truly feel like you are part of their business, to truly feel like you are on side, I think you need to be able to share bad news as well as good news and kind of share warts and all, the, the, the kind of the market process, the candidates, all, all of that good stuff. And I think if you do that from a really genuine, um, angle, it's very easy to— and, and you constantly ask for feedback, that's, that's also incredibly important. It's all good and well thinking you've done a really good job, but there'll always be areas that you can improve. So constantly be looking for that and constantly be looking to receive that and being brave enough to take that bad feedback and action it. I think if you do that and you do that really consistently, and consistency is always key in everything, you will just naturally develop that kind of retention rate with customers and you'll get better for the customers that you're about to bring on as well, which is, which, which is really important. So that, that's kind of how we've, how we've done it really, really customer experience-focused and really ask for feedback. And that's why I'm so proud of our kind of customer experience scores. And when we incentivize our teams on that as well, by the way, so they actually get paid on it, which is, which just drives the right behaviors. If you're going to, if you're going to really focus around that, make sure you're incentivizing it, make sure you're reviewing it and making, make sure you've got a score assigned to that.

Mm, two things I really want to ask you about, Callum, just off the back of that. Um, the first one was regarding feedback. Is there any feedback you have asked a customer, they've given it to you, and it's been a game changer to your process, and you've been like, oh my God, that was really great feedback, now this is going to change? Is that— does anything come to mind?

Um, it's, um, Not necessarily. It's a really good— it's a good question. Not necessarily. There's things that we definitely think we do that we think add a significant value. And if you ask the customer, they're like, why did you do that?

Oh, really?

That's just pissing me off. And then all we do is kind of the vast majority of sales recruitment within that kind of tech space. And we do the kind of first stage video interview. And interestingly, what has happened on our journey, we do a video interviewing, asking 3 to 6 questions that you guys, if you were the client, ask a candidate to assess that person against your business, not just any business. Usually for the first couple of hires, they really like that in understanding the candidates better. A couple of times we've had the feedback because we constantly ask for feedback and don't just assume they're still liking it. After the third hire, they're kind of thinking, Callum, I'm wasting 5 minutes reviewing a candidate, but I've got to the point where I trust you implicitly.

Interesting.

Well, you, you, out of the 6 videos that you put forward, I've seen everyone every time, so can we just cut— can we cut this out? And it— and then that's kind of a bit eye-opening because you— some— something that was valuable 3 months prior is now kind of redundant to, to that. And unless I'd ask them that, they perhaps just be, be wasting time every single time we submit a candidate when they I just think that Callum, Adam, Aaron, Lizzie, whoever is part of our team, you get it. So if you, if you say I need to be speaking to Sam, I will speak to Sam. Don't worry about recording an interview, you're wasting your time, you're wasting my time.

That's really, uh, really interesting. And I feel like feedback is such an important thing that probably a lot of recruiters aren't leveraging enough. Um, when's the best time to ask for feedback, and how do you use that information? Because I know it can sometimes get lost once you get— I don't know, for me and Sam as well, we've had to work on this. One thing's getting feedback, and then it's leveraging it and implementing it. So when's the best time to ask for it, and then how do you actually leverage that and use it effectively?

As I, I guess my answer is as much as you possibly can. So that I wouldn't necessarily say there is a, there is a best time to, to ask. I get— I, I said something about feedback on a previous podcast, had a couple of comments being like, I'm surprised that not many recruiters are good at getting feedback, surely it's such a basic element of the job. It is a basic element of the job, but I think I want to stress, when I talk about feedback, I really mean the shit horrible feedback, and not just like, not just passing on feedback. Not— it is a minimum expectation that a recruiter, if they get interview feedback, passes that to a candidate. Yeah, but receiving really difficult to hear feedback from your colleague or from your candidate and being brave enough to ask for it, but also then having a good enough relationship where that person feels they can give you that feedback is something else. And that takes a lot of time and it takes mastery. So, um, I ask for feedback and we try to ask for feedback across the board. One of the things that we're really proud of out of that +89 NPS score is that over 70% of the people that gave feedback there are unsuccessful candidates or clients. So people that— and clients are slightly different because we, we end up filling every, every role that we take on because, because of our kind of model. However, we have had, if it might have taken an extra 2 weeks, we'll still class that maybe as an unsuccessful assignment or an area where we could have improved. So being able to really pin down candidates who haven't got the jobs feedback, because everyone who goes through a process, everyone who gets a job through Zest or whoever the agency is, naturally their feedback is going to be skewed. It's going to be biased to It was a great experience, but every recruiter— I don't know what the average KPI looks like for candidate registrations, but it might be between 10 and 20 a week, and they might be expected to make one placement a week. So there, there, there's naturally 9 people there who have had a conversation, invested their time having a conversation with Callum, Ben, Sam, whoever that person is, and been unsuccessful. So I really want to know their feedback, and I want to constantly then know, know, know their feedback. Where, where, where we actually formally ask for feedback, which is maybe a a better answer to your question. At any time anyone is rejected through a job application, so sent their CV, client doesn't want to speak to them, they are rejected, they will get an email that gets an NPS score generated for us. Um, and we're really proud that our reply rate or response rate to those is over 50%, which is, which is in the kind of top quartile of, of, of, of that kind of area. But, um, That's where we, we ask for, we ask for feedback. So if we're kind of rejected through a process or, um, at placement stage, but try and ask as much as, as much as we can. And internally as well, be really brave to say, Adam, I didn't like the way you did that. And by the way, nothing against you personally, but then, then that's where the coachability comes in as well. So being able to, to really chat about difficult topics and not have like an elephant in the room of someone pitching zest in a really shit way, or just not value-aligned way, and not being brave enough to say, why are you doing that? Give me your viewpoint on why you do it that way, because there is obviously a reason. And being able to kind of really have a difficult, challenging conversation around stuff like that.

Interesting. So I got rejection— that seems to be a big point of asking feedback— and at placement stage.

Is that—

those are the two main areas, but those are the two main Um, just practically speaking, again, for people that aren't used to asking for feedback, let's go for rejection stage because that seems to be 70% of the people that are giving feedback. Um, what kind of questions do you ask to get that type of feedback? And is it through an email or a call or both or variety? Maybe you could—

yeah, so, so the NPS side is, is really linear, really simple, is just, hey Ben, you've recently been through the process with Adam Jennings at Zest for the role of Business Development Manager. Can you give a— give you a 1 to 10 score that will just come through via email? You click 9, it then goes through to a separate screen. Would you be willing to share a bit more information as to why you've given the score you've given? So from an actual kind of from a formal collection standpoint, that is how we do it. Um, at, at, at that call, we are trained and we are, um, pretty, pretty, um, kind of militant in, in asking at that site when we've given the feedback. So when we've given the feedback about why they are a no, um, and really challenged our client not to give us crap answers of it's overexperienced, or because that is bollocks. And if a candidate's going to tell us it's bollocks we need to be able to tell our client it's bollocks because we want, we want them to be in exactly the same way. We want a Zest employee to be coachable, to grow. We want our candidates to grow because if we're, if we're making sure they develop through their career and they have a great experience with us, it's going to be a net positive outcome for Zest because they're going to come back and they're going to be in a more senior position than they were before. But really challenging clients to get some, some good feedback, giving that feedback as quickly as possible, warts and all. 'Even if it's, even if it's really challenging, because we're doing it for the best interest of our candidates.' And then being able to say, 'I've given you some really challenging feedback, Sam. Could you give us some really challenging feedback actually on the experience that you've had with Zest?' Go quiet, see what they say. Often people are a bit shy to give bad feedback because especially majority of our kind of candidates, British, sort of over-polite, awkward with negative feedback.

Good old Brits.

Yeah, exactly. I'm certainly one of those. But if you kind of push and I think it helps kind of having just given some feedback that they can see is quite hard to give, to then kind of be very vulnerable, very open and say, look, I'm not going to take it personally at all, as I'm very thankful that you have just taken that incredibly well. Sam, Ben, I hope that you understand why we've given you that feedback in the way that we've given it to you. Would you— you will be getting an email from us, so please, if you have time, we're incentivized on this feedback, please give it. And if you think of anything after this call, please write it down and it would be really useful for us. But whilst I'm here, can you share any challenge? And it's really interesting to hear what you, you get from that. And that can be processed, that can be kind of— that can be something that just becomes second nature and as to what you do.

Interesting. And sorry, just one more question, so I know I'm jumping in here, but, um, from the feedback you've had from rejected candidates, what part of your business has it had the biggest impact on, that, that feedback, do you think?

Um, it's—

I, I think we've been able to fight their corner slightly better, and we've been able to preempt challenges that we've had further down the road. And I think that kind of goes back to that initial qualification of a client being incredibly important, and the fact that a client to us, a good client for us, might be a very different good client to another agency. And understanding that and being able to say no to people that don't fit that, but also being able to be very direct and in a polite way, because it's because you are looking to build a partnership, you are looking to, you are looking to get the best possible results, and you're looking to impart your expertise and knowledge onto your clients in saying, look, we're going to have to just, just so you know, as a minimum expectation of working with Zest, we're going to have to get feedback within 48 hours because that has been a problem for our client, for our candidates previously. We are going to be able to have to be brave enough to share all feedback, good, bad, or ugly. And you're going to have to really bring us into your inner circle in order to share that. Because what often happens is sit in this room, meet someone, there's maybe 2 people interviewing a candidate, they turn to each other, yeah, I really didn't like his tie, or quite old school, but just, and then they've gone back and said, yeah, just, just not quite the right cultural fit, and they haven't actually given the real, the real answer because they think it might be rude, they think it might offend someone. So kind of being able to, at the offset, be able to say, look, we're really good at what we do, We build partnerships. We're going to be doing this in your best interest, but to protect your brand, to get the best results, we need to, we need to make sure that we're looking after everyone. And exactly the same from a candidate perspective. And in us saying that to our— the best way to demonstrate what you do well is show what you do well. So in us saying that to our clients at the offset, they know that we're also saying that to our candidates. Look, if you're going to apply for this role, we're going to need that video interview. We're going to need you to put a good bit of time into this process, and we're going to need you to be really serious about this because we're not wasting our clients' time. Um, feel free to— that you don't know, there's no obligation to move forward. But, and you might rule some people out at that stage, but you won't get to this silly nonsense that kind of off a stage where someone completely ghosts you, or you book an interview and they don't turn up. So I, I just think, and it's pride in what we do, I, I, I think. But that, that's all been shaped and guided from feedback that we've got along the journey. That's an better constantly at what we do.

Love that. I have to jump— we've only got about 10 minutes left until the pod's ending. I've got 2 questions, 2 more questions to ask. I wanted to jump into like branding and video content, um, Callum, because I think I alluded to at the beginning of the podcast, a lot of recruiters don't touch video. They haven't even done it. You've gone, you know, 10 steps ahead and you've got professionally produced video. They're really good, um, a lot of them. And on top of that, if I go through your LinkedIn feed, you put a lot of effort into copy and building your brand. Why go through all this effort for you personally to build your brand? You know, your, your focus could be in 100 different things as a business owner. What— why put so much effort towards this?

Um, because it makes business sense, I think, is the very short answer. I, I think, I, I think that's changed very much over my 10, 10 or so years in, in recruitment. I think, um, I, I, in such a competitive space, in a space where your message and your brand is, is so difficult to portray, being truly authentic around that— we will— you will never see anyone at Zest post anything about a job. You will, you will see us post about what our values are, how we go about doing things, how we're going about disrupting the market, maybe something about service. Um, because all we're trying to do is, is, is create an ecosystem of people who are value-aligned so that we're having more well-qualified conversations with customers that are in our space and who want to work with us, because recruitment is far more joyous when it's a two-way relationship and you're, you're kind of there as peers and partners. I, I think, um, branding is a funny journey. What— the more you do it, the more success you get from it, and the more you realize actually the, the sense, the sense in, in doing it. And I'm really proud of our team who actually started that journey, who have really experienced big billers in recruitment, who had never really done it before, but have started doing that and started seeing, seeing the success off back of it. And it just makes your life and the job so much easier, being able to pop up in people's inbox, no, knowing who you are, knowing a bit about you. Oh, I've seen Zessia, I really like that video, and it's not, it's not the right time, Callum, but look, um, I really appreciate you reaching out, rather than feeling like you're constantly being this— and again, in the very British way— constantly being this nuisance, this pest. Um, and I, I just think— and I guess a secondary point as well, once you've had a call I think historically a prospect or a candidate would go on your website, they type in Zest into Google and go on your website, have a wee snoop at what you do, what you stand for, etc. Now they're probably going to your socials. Now they're probably going to— and they want to work with a business that they believe is doing the right thing. We never really shout about this, but 5% of our profits go to charity. We really do, do the right thing, um, or what we believe to do the right thing. And we're trying to, we're trying to, um, we're trying to create communities who also have that belief. And, and that's nothing wrong with, with people who don't necessarily, um, have that belief. They're just not, not the best people for us. But it kind of, in order to build those communities, you've got to show who you are. And that's what, that's what having that kind of personal branding and team kind of branding piece has really done for us over the last— well, since Esther's kind of been, been around. So love that, man.

I really love that answer, Callum. And if I was a consultant, someone who was joining your business tomorrow, what are some tips or tricks or brand guidelines that you will guide them towards? You probably tell them, okay, this is what we're aiming for, this is what you've got to do on a weekly basis. Would you mind just telling us a bit around your strategy?

So firstly, it's getting a really clear understanding of what we're here to do. So completely clear understanding of our vision. We're here to radically change the perception of recruitment and, and kind of get, get to know our values of, of whether it's kind of, um, be yourself always, so kind of genuine, which is so unique to that individual, or the kind of bring the zest, like the kind of zesty energy, passion for, for what we do. And that's all a behavioral thing. So that, that's in me, that's in our team in hiring the right people. From that point, we do KPI to, to, to post in 2 bits of content a week. I think that's important. I think it in order for it to really build, build a bit of steam, you need to get consistent with it. So I think that's, that's important. And I think it's, it's one, one challenge, you know, this for any of the audience who, who, um, everyone feels the same about this. Oh, I don't know what to post. I don't— if you think of— I can think of this conversation that we've had for 40-odd minutes, and I can think of 10 different things that I could post off the back of this. It's just— and it holds you to account, actually, to have really challenging conversations with with your clients and candidates, right? And be able to ask probing questions, right? So what's, what's your biggest challenge at the moment? Tell me. Because their biggest challenge is likely going to be who you're trying to communicate with. Yeah, the biggest challenge. And being able to ask those questions, to hold you to account to post 2 things a week. Yeah, it's a really important journey to, to, to go on. So I, I think it all starts with don't post anything until you've got a really clear understanding of who we are, what we're trying to do, and how we're trying to get there. Secondly, This is what, this is what good looks like, 2 posts a week. And thirdly, in order to be consistent with that, have challenging conversations, ask questions that are thought-provoking, ask questions that will help you build your kind of content library, write it down, do it in a way that's authentic. It's one of our values. And make sure if you like video, do video, but get out of your comfort zone as well because no one bloody likes video. But once you start seeing it, once you like start seeing the success of success of that, um, you, you, you'll gen— success will breed success. It will start coming. I can, I can guarantee that with time.

Love that, Callum. That was a really great answer, mate, for a lot of people that struggle with content and don't know where to start. Um, last question from me, and this is the first time in our podcast history that I've asked the first question, or the question I was supposed to ask you at the beginning of the podcast, at the end of the podcast. I thought I would leave it to the end. So, um, the first question, which I was supposed to ask you at the beginning, now to the end: what's the number one tool in your toolkit, would you say, Callum? Whether it be mindset, strategy, or software.

Mindset. Definitely. Well, 100, 100, 100%. Um, I think it's very easy through everything that I have just said, um, to get really idealistic around creating a really good service, doing everything the right way, recruitment is still bloody hard. This is, it is an incredibly difficult job. It's a job that requires a whole host of resilience. It's a job that you have to deliver bad news every day, every hour, every minute, really, in some way. And mindset and how you get out of bed every morning. And, and, uh, it's difficult to communicate actually now in, in a world where the, the, the candidate in— when we recruit in tech and the amount of employee benefits and how flexible you can be, etc. But my biggest tool, however good and however passionate I am about what we do and however differentiated I can, I can make what we do and we can make that as a team, I, I still think my biggest tool is I will work harder than anyone else in a room. Um, and I don't think anything will ever substitute that. But, but I do think, I do think, I do think that mindset has to be linked with the company and the vehicle that you're on. I would find I could work 12 hours a day and hate it and be crap at it, or I could work 12, 14-hour days, or however much I work now, and it doesn't feel like work. I've just come back from honeymoon for 3 weeks, and which was wonderful, and I, I really love my life. And again, back to that 50 minutes— I wouldn't change anything for the world. I wouldn't sell any element. I, I don't need that. But I am so lucky. At the end of those 3 weeks, I was excited to come back to work. I'm excited. I'm excited to do what I do every day. I'm excited to have conversations like this every day and, and be able to share what I, what I've learned. And I think it's a mix between finding that right, my mindset is something you build, it's something you either have— it could nature and nurture— but then finding the right business. If you're going to invest as much time and dedication as you need to invest in order to be successful in recruitment, make sure you do it with the right business, make sure you do it with the right people around you, because it should be fun. And it should— even though it's bloody hard, it should be fun. It should be an amazing experience. And And yeah, that's something I just feel exceptionally lucky to, to, um, to be able to, to put this hard work into something that I am really proud to be on the journey of, kind of impacting and being impactful within this space.

Love that, Callum. And I can feel that genuinely from your— how you speak. Like, some people can fake it. I can literally feel it like oozing out of you, and it's very infectious. So I think it's a beautiful thing, mate. Thank you so much for joining us, mate. This was— I could go on and ask you another half an hour worth of questions, but I know you've got a call you've got to get off to. Thank you so much for coming though, mate.

Thank you, Colin.

Very valuable. Lots of great information. So thank you, mate.

Good, good. Well, thanks for making the time and thanks for having me on.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we We look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.