How to Save 40 Hours A Week Hiring Virtual Assistants (Recruitment Business Owner)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Maddie Trelaw. There was a point in time when Maddie was working 90 hours a week. She was working late into the nights and burning herself out. She realized that something needed to change. She hired 3 VAs that have collectively saved her 40 hours a week, which means she can focus most of her time on winning new business and speaking to clients. The business is turning over around $100,000, and the profit margins are 75%. She really has built an amazing lifestyle business that's working for her and very profitable. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about how Maddie went about hiring VAs and the specific tasks that she outsourced that saved her 40+ hours a week, why Maddie swears by podcasts for BD and how it's helped her win new business. We're also going to be speaking about the insane tech stacks that recruiters can get suckered into paying huge monthly costs, and why cutting down your tools to only the core essential will actually make you more productive. Guys, there's some golden nuggets in this podcast. Hope you enjoy it as much as we did. And as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you listen to this, and let's get into it, shall we?

Maddy, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really excited and looking forward to speaking to you.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be on the podcast. I've heard a few episodes and, um, really appreciated the content that you guys put out there, so thanks for having me.

Awesome. And let's just jump straight into the first question, if that's okay with you, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Yeah, so I thought long and hard about this one because I've worked with so many different recruiting quote-unquote tools when it comes to technology. But if I were to boil down, like, okay, what's been the thing that has been been with me the whole time, it would be more so of a mindset or a value. And so for me, that's honestly my faith in that recruiting— high risk, high reward. And oftentimes I think we see burnout in people that give up. They burn out because they think this is a dead end. But in anything that has that, uh, high reward, there's going to be lulls and times where you just flat out fail. And for me, my faith has allowed me to know that, hey, I'm good at what I do. If I can do it before, I can do it again. But I still might fail a few times too.

Interesting. And, and so just to clarify, do you mean faith as in religious faith or faith in yourself in terms of your ability to do the job? But can you just elaborate a little bit on what you mean?

Honestly, both. So I'm a Christian, and, and for me that means having faith in the bigger picture, right? That it's not always about just what I'm doing, but what the plan is and what has already been destined for me. And if I'm working in a way that is purposeful and intentional, then you really can't go wrong no matter what you choose to do in life. And so for me, it's also knowing too that if I'm faithful in myself and that I've seen results in the past, I just need to get back to that. I can't let the, the downfalls, the pitfalls, and the bad days of recruiting overrule what has been a great career for me.

Love that. Are there any specific moments that you can remember in your business where faith has really played a part in getting you past something or helping you through certain periods, Maddie?

Yes, um, daily, honestly. And there's been larger moments for sure. I mean, I think it's funny, recruiters are really good at hiring for other people, but often we suck at hiring for ourselves. And I've had people that were awesome people but just didn't work out, no matter how much training or coaching. And so It's been something that I've had to work on and really defining, like, okay, what makes someone successful here compared to maybe teams that I've hired in the past where I was working with larger companies with more resources. Um, that's been the biggest part for me, I think, is just having faith that if you continue doing what you set out to do, the right people will be attracted to that and come work with you.

Love that. It's really interesting, and it's simp— it's similar to having a I know religion and spirituality, they, they cross over quite a lot, um, but it's almost like keeping a positive mindset that things are going to be okay. It's kind of crossover. Would you agree, Maddie?

Yeah, I mean, even if you aren't religious, it's just having faith in the fact that, you know, the universe isn't out to get you. Nobody is trying to bring you down. But that is part of any job, number one. It's not all rainbows and butterflies, um, but I think recruiting gives you these high of highs where like, wow, I made all this money, right? And, um, then it can bring you to the lows of the lows, and you've got to be able to find a way to balance those out.

Love that.

Great advice. Um, I'm going to move on to question 2, um, Maddie, which is: you've built a healthcare recruitment business to $500,000 to $600,000 annual billings, um, with a small team. What made you choose a lifestyle business? Correct me if I'm wrong, this is more of a lifestyle business, but what made you choose a lifestyle business versus kind of rapid scaling or rapid growth?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, um, I like to say that comparison is the thief of joy because I had people in the industry that are buddies of mine who started around the same time and they are billing 3 times the amount than I am. And when I speak with them, often you look at that and think, oh, well, they're doing so much better, but their overhead is higher. They're taking on more risk. Some of them have investors, some of them have funding. I'm completely bootstrapped. And to me, that was something that I promised myself from the start, is that I wanted to do it on my own without any outside funding. And so I know that that meant slower growth in comparison to being able to scale quickly because I had left my corporate comfortable job to start my business with my life savings. And I had previously gone through a divorce and all the things and life changes to where it wasn't easy, and I had to be very careful in the risk that I took. And so that meant I couldn't hire 5 different recruiters that were bringing in 250 to 300 a year to where I could bill X amount. Um, it meant doing it myself for a few, you know, the first year and a half really, until I truly hired a second person. Um, and now just looking at 2 and a half years to hire another person. So it's just a little bit of a slower build, and for me it was the pride in being bootstrapped, but also seeing, honestly, not everybody, because some people are just really good at what they do and kudos to them. But a lot of times I see these companies that start out, they scale so quickly that there's no way that they're not compromising on candidate or client quality. There has to be a shortcut somewhere. And in my mind, I would rather go slow to go fast.

I love that.

So many, uh, so many great insights there in terms of just a different way of thinking. And I think one, one for me which is, um, that resonates is, is profit. Is, you know, actually the bigger you get, your profit margins are getting slashed and slashed. And yeah, you know, I feel like everyone is obsessed at times, including myself, with revenue, but it's like, how much are you taking home from that? And You know, no, not, not enough recruiters talk about profit in terms of, you know, that being the end result. I remember seeing something on LinkedIn where this guy— it's a little bit unrelated, but kind of related— he invests in— he has like 10 businesses, and he had— he quite transparently put all the profit margins of all his businesses. And then there was one that was like doing $200K revenue but had like $100K profit margin, and another one that was doing $1 million and $100K profit margin. And I was like, oh my God, like, business number 2 is working so much harder for the same profit. And it's like, that doesn't really make any sense. Um, and you talk about, you know, maybe the argument is, oh, maybe business number 2 is trying to sell. But if you look at the statistics of how many businesses actually sell, it's minuscule. It's like, I don't know the exact— I think recruitment businesses, it's 1%, let's say. It's a very small percentage of recruitment. Companies that actually end up selling. Um, so yeah, it's really, really good reminder.

Yeah.

And that, um, I'm interested in that you said you had your first hire and your second hire. At what point did you decide to make that first hire, Maddie? I'm always interested in that because me and Ben are like in the process at the moment of hiring for our business, so I like to get into other people's minds. But like, at what point were you like, okay, I need to make this hire? And what hire was that, out of interest?

Sure. So I actually created basically like a calculation, as I mentioned, because I am bootstrapped, I had to be very particular and careful about what I was investing in. Um, and so it was basically, hey, if I get to the point of the business where I'm making X amount and I could make exponentially more, but I don't have the bandwidth to actually deliver on these positions or for these clients, that's first and foremost, right? Like, if people are knocking at your door and you can't let them in because you don't have enough food for them then probably you need to find another cook, right? But, um, the second part of it from just a numerical or data standpoint is finding a calculation in that trigger point to where you say, okay, if I hire, if I'm bringing in this amount and I'm contributing X amount back to the business and looking at that profit margin, you know, as long as I'm staying— for me, I try to stay upwards of 75% profit. And so If I'm above that and I can still hire somebody on and achieve that, as long as they're billing X amount and covering what their— that initial investment was. So if their base salary is, you know, X amount, they have to at least make that and then some, right? And then once they make a certain amount past that is that next trigger point to hire another person so that you're consistently not having to pull into business profit in order to reinvest. You're pulling into things that are additional above that 75% Interesting.

And it was a biller that you wanted to bring in, am I right? And Maddie, you wanted to bring in someone who could hunt down more clients?

Yeah, so they do full desk, um, and so it allows me to also be able to focus more on, as the owner, like the strategic thinking, the partnerships. And so that was really a key hire. Her name is Stacy. She's been fantastic. Um, and then now we're looking hopefully in this year to hire somebody to support recruiting and then move into also doing BD as well. so that we can keep that train moving. But for the most part, I've heard of recruiters that say you shouldn't have full desk because then they take everything with them. But if you treat people good and pay them well, they won't have a reason to do that.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, I just have to go back to the 75% profit margin. Like, that's— is that normal for— that seems incredibly high, like in a good way. Maddie, do you know what the average is for a recruitment company? I have no idea. I would be really interested to find out.

To be honest, I don't know what the average is. So I have a bookkeeper and a CPA, and I just try to stay super lean on what I'm investing in for technology.

Cool.

I think the recruitment space has gotten uber obsessed with like this hot new tool and that hot new tool. Forget that, you know, when I first started recruiting, it was knocking on doors and working off of Excel spreadsheets. There was no AI, there was no fancy technology. Our ATSs were often hosted in G Suite. Like there was none of this flowery stuff that we deal with today. And I think that we often invest so much in that, that it takes away from our profit in order to achieve a margin that's not really legitimate or worth it.

Interestingly, your, your profit margin, you're probably making more profit than a lot of businesses that have got double your revenue, which is interesting. So yeah, you know, it's just really interesting to come back to that as a, as as a point of reference for success, I think, which is profit.

Yeah.

You've got an interesting approach from contingent— correct me if I'm wrong. I remember the first call. So when you approach clients, your initial offering is contingent and then you say to them, okay, I've proven my worth. I can show you what, you know, I've, I've made a placement and given you someone who's really talented. From now on, I want to do retained. Is that kind of the model that you have with your clients at the moment, Maddie?

Yes and no. Um, so we essentially, we tell them like, here's our 3 service offerings, right? Which are exclusive retained, which is going to get top priority, is going to be the most cost efficient, especially if there's volume. Um, because we know that there's a higher winning, you know, percentage there. There's more likelihood of us filling that than if we're contingent non-exclusive. So we're taking less risk, therefore we don't need as much reward. Um, when we offer these 3 services, we also do contingent exclusives, which is kind of the middle ground. Like, if I don't know you, you don't know me, let's start there, and I'll release you of exclusivity if within 30 days we can't find somebody, because I don't want you to have to put all your fish— you know, not your fish, your eggs— in one basket. Um, so there's that option, and that's kind of mid-tier pricing. And then you have the, um, non-exclusive contingent, which is the highest risk, therefore It is the highest reward as far as the fee goes. And so if somebody is completely against a retainer, I'll say, okay, fair enough, let's start out contingent and I will give you 2 weeks of my free time and resources. But if we have a candidate engaged, whether that be a shortlist, an interview, etc., then at that point, do you agree that I've proven that I'm capable of doing the job and you would feel comfortable then paying a retainer? And so typically I just add that into the clause on the contract that if we have 1 to 2 to 3, whatever we agree upon, candidates engaged, at that point the retainer is due and we move into an exclusive partnership. Um, and it's a way to kind of say like, let's date a little bit, right? Before we just jump into this committed relationship, because a lot of people push the retainer, but retainer is not always the best option. And it gives you an out if you decide this person either has a position that I truly cannot fill, right? Whether it's the candidates are not there, they're not paying enough, their communication sucks, you know, their culture is horrible. You find out that the manager they're going to be reporting to has had like 3 allegations against them. Like, yeah, let's not do this anymore. We release you. Hope you find somebody. So I think that's important too. Again, just using the buzzword of retainer does not always mean they're a great client.

Yeah, really interesting.

Really interesting.

What, out of the 3 packages, which one do clients normally go for, uh, Maddy, out of curiosity?

Contingent, exclusive, and then you hope to move them to that of a retainer, especially if they're growing. Now, if they come to us for 1 or 2 positions, one-off, then, you know, for me, I'm like, why? There's no need, you know. But if they come to us, and I've got clients that hire 10 to 15 people a year, well, yeah, you know, you're going to want to retain time because we're hiring the same position every, you know, month. And in that instance, it gets harder each time that we hire somebody because we're taking one person off the market. And so it's understanding too that the retainer is more so the skin in the game for our attention and dedication and priority of it. Than it is us just trying to get your money and walk away from it. Um, and I see recruiters seeing a retainer as a way to measure success or profit, and you really can't think of it that way.

Great advice. I love that you use your— use a podcast for a lot of your business development, don't you? Which I think is brilliant. This podcast has been, I think, for me and Sam, transformational. And we always, you know, we always push this to recruiters to start a podcast as well because there's a few— there's like, it's like an amazing ecosystem because you get to speak to decision makers first and foremost. Like, you get to have an excuse to just get people on a call. You get to make great content. You get to learn about the market, and you get to turn that into other content to attract other people. So it's like this incredible ecosystem. But I'd love to dive into how you actually make it work for your business and how you make this profitable as a podcast. Maddie, do you mind kind of going into some more detail for other people who might want to do it?

Yeah, definitely. So I think a lot of people hold back from the podcast because they think it's like, hey, I'm not used to being on camera, or I don't know what I would talk about, or I wouldn't really be able to talk the language. And in my mind, if that's the case, then you're not in the right industry because if you're passionate about what you do, you're able to talk their same language. And so, um, so true. For me, it was a way to not only network but to actually add value back into the industry that I work. So many times recruiters fail to do that. They're just out for the next transaction, out for the next sale, out for the next client candidate, but they're not giving anything back. They're not providing people with any resources. They're not providing value. Value to the people that they're then turning around and asking to pay them 20% and 30% of salaries. And so there has to be some type of element to— you're in the industry that you're actually working with. And so for me, the podcast was really an opportunity to talk to folks that otherwise I might never do business with, but they're still influen— like, they're influencers within the industry. So if I can get their content out to other people it's going to start conversation and connect folks even if I'm not making a penny off of it. And that itself establishes you as a trusted advisor, which is what we all should be as recruiters.

Yeah, such a great point, Maddie, because that's what mine and Ben's podcast has done for us. Like, we interview amazing recruiters and by default we're associated with them. We share their ideas, their content. We literally just regurgitate what they said and put it on and then send a link to the podcast. And like, as by default, we are now building an incredible brand and associated with all these incredible builders. So, um, it's really interesting. Um, so what part of the— so I understand the— you want to give back to the industry, you want to provide value, connecting with people. I completely understand that. What part of the podcast process have you discovered has been more beneficial for, um, generating business? Is it like after the podcast you have a meeting with them Does it kind of happen organically? Where does the business come from the podcast, if you wouldn't mind, um, asking, uh, telling us, Maddie?

Yeah, so I think, um, the key thing is it's like getting a meeting and then not asking for another meeting is what a lot of recruiters fail on, especially on the sales side. Is it's like people, if they know and you make it clear what you do, then, you know, even if they don't end up utilizing your services in the next 30 days or even the next year you're still that trusted person for when the time comes. And so what I've done is after a guest is on the podcast, I'm not calling them saying, hey, I saw an open role, can I work on it? Um, I'm saying, hey, here's my contact information. I'm giving them actually a gift card that goes towards future recruitment needs so that they also know like, hey, you've taken the time to speak with me and add value to my network. I want to give back to you. So you don't have to pay what everybody else is going to have to pay that isn't connected through this network. So I have a LinkedIn group to where anybody that's been a guest goes on there. And if I have resources or blog posts, I share that content so that they can get that content firsthand as well.

That's cool.

Yeah. And then I send them little follow-up gifts. So, you know, I had one podcast guest who, she's an avid athlete and she trains. And so instead of just sending her like a mug, you know, I sent her a gift card for an upcoming thing that she had to go get a brand new outfit at Nike Outlet.

And so cool.

Yeah, it's, it's just personalizing the process and, and not expecting anything in return, right? Like, you're giving them the resources to where if they needed you, they know how to contact you and they have a discount, but you're not calling them going, hey, now what? Right?

Interesting.

And I think naturally that's helped. And there are times where positions pop up and I see that nobody's applied, or they're hiring and it's been posted for 60 days, and I'm like, okay, you know, what's going on over here? Is that anything that I could provide, you know, some help with? But it's not being that pushy salesy recruiter because they, they get 10 of those a day.

They don't want another Really interesting. You're essentially, in simple terms, just building a natural relationship with these key decision makers and being friendly and being natural. And then when the time arises, I'm guessing you're probably the first person they think of, um, most of the time.

Um, yeah, yeah, you know, it's a saturated market, so I think similar to what you said before of like, why not scale, why take it slow, because I think recruiters they get into this business and they think it's like the Ozempic, right? They want it overnight. They want it to just happen. And they think like, I'm going to scale. But do you know how many recruiters do that and they're successful in doing so? They can come in and make their money. They burn out and they leave the industry. And that's what I've seen in my tenure as a recruiter is people come and go and it's a good skill set to have. But if you're actually going to stay here for the long haul and outbeat the junior recruiters at the mega staffing agencies and add value, then it's a long game. It's not an overnight win.

Definitely agree with that.

Um, and I think people underestimate the relationship you can build in an hour's conversation with someone about their industry, because, you know, we're not really— we're not talking about— you're not talking about your product. You're literally asking them questions about their industry, about their pains, about whatever it is.

Um, right.

So yeah, really great advice, and Um, have you found, just out of curiosity, if there was one point that you found— and maybe there's not a common theme— but have you found that when you send that second gift, for example, that's when you get more roles? Or when you follow up 5 times? Or like, have you found there's a point at which you get the most traction from the follow-up process or the relationship building process?

It honestly differs because at some points I could— like, I've had it happen to where before I even have them on the podcast, I do an initial like 15-minute, okay, here's what you can anticipate, here's what we're going to talk about, here's what I'm thinking. And I've gotten business just from that because they didn't know that, oh, you're also a recruiter. Okay, we've got open roles.

And so interesting.

Then I've had people that I had in the podcast, you know, last year who I still haven't quote unquote converted, but that's not my goal. You know, my goal was to just add value. So I follow up with them. I send them resources, like we make salary guides. I provide that to them. And they know how to contact me should they need me. But I also respect that some places don't need an outside recruiter, and that's okay too, because if they're at a conference and they meet somebody that says, we're hiring, we need an outside recruiter, they go, hey, check out Maddie. She's on LinkedIn. I was on her podcast. She sent me a bunch of resources. She's somebody that you can trust. And so it's building also that second sphere of influence and that referral network even if you're not making a client out of somebody that's on the podcast.

Mm, love that. For— we can make this quick, Maddie, but I'm just interested because I haven't actually asked this to a guest. For any recruiter that is looking to start a podcast, is there anything that you went through that you're like, okay, don't do that, don't do that, focus on this? Is there anything that comes to mind?

So I would say, and I know this is depending on the financial situation, but when I hired somebody that edited my podcast it saved me probably 4 to 6 hours a week because I was recording weekly and then had to sit there. And I'm not a podcast editor, like I had to learn a new software, it would mess up on me, it wouldn't save, and then I was pissed off. So when I hired someone that was an expert in that, it saved me a lot of time so that I could interview more people, add more value, and the podcast itself was more polished. It was more professional looking. And so I think that's the number one thing that I would have done from the start, because even though it's costly, it's worth every penny in my, you know, mind. Because if you generate or convert one client, likely you're gonna pay that cost for the entire year for that person.

Yeah, cool, awesome. So number one, get an editor as soon as possible.

Yes, I love that.

It's a good advice.

Really good point. And recruiters are so busy, it's like to because for most of the time doing it yourself is, is really, really difficult. So absolutely. Um, what types of people do you actually speak to, uh, Maddie? Like, what's your typical guest, if you want me asking?

Sure. So we, um, specialize in hiring APPs and providers, and we work across a few different specialties. Stacy focuses a lot on dermatology and plastic surgery. I focus more on the orthopedic, sports medicine, pain management realm, just out of interest in itself, um, and So a lot of the people on it are healthcare leaders, whether they're in a C-level executive seat or they're in a clinical position where they have some type of management, um, responsibility. We've also had people on that are just providers or individual contributors, um, to talk about the pain points, the things that are going right and going wrong in the industry.

Interesting. And, and what are you— what's been the best approach for you to reach out to these people? Um, because I think that's probably a little bit of a skepticism for some recruiters starting the podcast, is actually initiating that conversation and getting them to want to come onto the podcast. So what, what was your journey through inviting people and how has that progressed over time?

Yeah, so, um, I honestly just cold call people. I build lists of people that I think would be interesting to have on the podcast, whether it be that they've accomplished something or they're just high up within a certain, you know, seat. And so I think that they could share a lot of good insight. And so I would cold call people and just tell them like, like, you know, this is a cold call, but I'm actually not selling you anything at all. Um, I'm inviting you to be on my podcast. Can I send you the link and you can check it out? And if it's of interest, get back to me. And if not, then that's fine too. And so I would do that. I would send them the links, and then they would see it. Most of the time they say, sure, let's do it, because they see their friends and their, their network is also on it. Cool. And then that was kind how I went about things. And now if I'm at conferences, I, you know, talk about the podcast, I give away swag for the podcast, just different ways to, um, try to engage people. And I've got— I think I've got one right here. Hold on, let me find it. I send out mailers, um, for people that I can't get in touch with, and it just basically has like, are you my next— oh cool, um, and it gives them the tag so they can go to it, and on the back they can scan a QR code and then just book right from there to talk about it.

Very clever. Got some— you gave me and Tam some ideas now.

I know, I'm slacking. We haven't got the— we haven't got the merch, we haven't got the cards. We need all that stuff. That's awesome.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Very clever.

Um, interesting. Yeah, that's a great way to start a relationship. Again, it's like, I'm not selling you anything, but would you like to come onto my podcast? It's really, really good.

And there is truly no— like, as much as I would love if I could help all the people that are on the podcast. I don't go into it with the goal that I'm selling these people something after. And I think because I don't give off that vibe, they're more likely to have the conversations about their growth. Even if they still don't hire me, it still gives me industry knowledge that helps me because then I can understand, okay, this place is growing over here, which means that likely, like, we're going to have to tap into this market and that market is growing. So it— even if it's not a sale, it's still a relationship. And that to me is what allows you to be successful long term.

Yeah.

And the interesting thing is, because we have had another podcast guest, um, sorry, another recruiter, or yeah, podcast guest who uses podcasts, and he's actually the opposite to you.

He does it—

he's a very hard seller and it still works for him. Um, but I think that either, either or could work. But I think the point is, once you've built that relationship Yeah, and you've got them on the phone for an hour or whatever, you've just got so many more— you've got so much more potential to just start a conversation with them and get their attention because you've already built that relationship, which is really interesting.

Um, and I will say this, a lot of times I've found it's easier to not sell to those people that you've built relationships with, but I will just ask them, hey, I'm looking for new clients, do you know anywhere that's hiring?

Yeah.

And they connect me via email to people that they know who are hiring. And so you have an automatic in rather than having to write some corny email sequence to somebody asking for their business. And so that's been the biggest thing too, is like, it's not always about just selling to that person, but being honest because that is the truth. Hey, I'm looking for new clients. I know you might not be in a position to hire, but who do you know that is? Would you be willing to make an introduction?

Love that, very clever.

I don't know about you, Maddie, but me and Sam have learned so much about the industries from interviewing these top billers. I'm guessing you've learned a huge amount about the industry as well. Am I right in saying that from the podcast guests you've had on?

Oh yeah, yeah, because I mean, you find, you find out things that otherwise you wouldn't think about it that way. And because I'm not directly in healthcare as a clinician or leader, it gives you a new, like, outlook on it and perspective so that when you are actually meeting with people, you can understand and empathize better because you understand their viewpoint. But of course, I don't think that way because I'm not dealing with those challenges. I'm just finding the solutions. And so, um, that's the biggest thing is being able to, to pivot that mindset.

Yeah, and, and that is invaluable market research that you can use in like all of your marketing. You could use it on your website, on, on your messages and content. That's why it's such a powerful ecosystem. Um, really cool. And I'd love to get into the next question because this is a big one. This is a really big one, um, especially for smaller recruitment firms, which is most of the people that me and Sam deal with. Okay, very, very time poor, you know. And but you, 6 months into your business, you hired a VA and it saved you about 15 hours per week roughly, which is that's a lot of time.

Crazy.

Um, and I'd love to understand what tasks do they handle, how do you overcome any initial quality or communication challenges? Just if you could talk us through that process, that would be awesome.

Yeah, so I had done some coaching with Mark Whitby, um, and he was the one that had kind of led me to the whole VA idea. Um, and at the time I was working solo, probably 90-hour work weeks if not more. I mean, I remember being in bed with my laptop and my husband telling me to turn the brightness down because because he couldn't sleep. Um, and so I'd be like, just turn around, just turn over, I gotta work. Um, but you know, I think that was definitely scary because you think of the language barrier, but a lot of offshore VAs, um, know English very well, and as long as you give them the guidelines, they're just as smart as anybody else, right? And so I think it was really key in helping me that first year to stay sane, but also to be able to produce the volume. Um, so I hired Angie. She has been with me, she's still with me today, um, and she's fantastic. I can throw BB tasks at her, I can throw sourcing at her, I can ask her to do administrative stuff. She'll look at emails and prioritize what I need to focus on first. Um, and so it's also trusting that once you've found somebody that seems to be, you know, able to handle it and trusting them to actually do that. I think so many people hire help and then try to manage and oversee everything, and it doesn't really help them because they're still having to do it all.

Uh, interesting, interesting.

So it's trusting that and then letting, you know, mistakes happen no matter whether you're here in the Philippines, in India, in Mexico, it doesn't matter. Mistakes happen, we're human. Letting mistakes happen, correcting it, and then that way it doesn't happen in the future.

Yeah, that's such a— that was such a big mindset shift for me as well, Maddie, realizing that when we hire someone, it's not going to be perfect first time, and you almost need to just be okay with this. Could take a couple months, and you're going to need to train them, and they're going to screw up, and you just have to be okay with that, and you have to hold their hand. And that was like a big aha moment. I was like, oh, okay, I'm just going to release control that it's not going to be perfect and just train.

Um, and that's your top biller.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Um, what was— I'm guessing, um, I know, correct me if I'm wrong, Maddie, but I'm guessing you brought them on and you probably taught them one thing first and then gave them more, um, more tasks as you trusted them and they got better. What was that first thing that you were like, okay, I need to outsource this thing because it's sucking up loads of my time?

Sourcing. So, um, you know, it got to the point where I was getting too many roles that I could handle myself. And so if I could fill the top of the funnel and be able to have leads that I could run with in the morning, um, and again, not every single lead is perfect, but little by little they start to understand your clients. Um, and that's with anybody, you know, you hire a recruiter in the United States or anywhere it's going to take time for them to understand the type of candidate your client wants. Um, and so I think it was just, again, trial and error, trial and error, working with them on Boolean search strings, on how to get creative and resourceful, what tools and resources to use. Um, and now I can say, hey, I'm looking for a PA in California that has neurosurgery experience, keep it to new grads, and she'll provide me a list of 50 people that I can call the next morning.

Love that.

So that was the biggest time saver sourcing, Maddie, would you say, if you were to kind of nail it down to one thing?

Yeah, cool.

What was the second biggest thing out of interest? Because it was 15 hours, was there like another thing that saved a lot of time?

Or—

so I will say now she's done kind of both the BD side. So for example, like if I'm creating like a top 100 list and I say, hey, here's 50 companies, go out and find like 2 executives um, or like one executive and one people manager in each company. She goes out and she'll do that. So then I have that automatic list that I can run through, um, call on, connect with them on LinkedIn, etc. And so just building lists has been helpful as well on the BD front.

Awesome, love that.

Yeah, because list building is like— I, I guess there's skill involved in it, but it's the, it's the first skill that you should probably outsource because which makes perfect sense because it can take so long. Um, yeah, list building can take ages, which is interesting. Um, sorry, Sam, what are you gonna say?

Um, no, it's just again, I'm being kind of selfish with these questions because me and Ben are hiring VAs, so I'm just again taking up— I'm sure other people will get value from it. I'm just wondering, was there any, um, not hiccups, but like things that you wish you did differently with VAs, or like biggest, uh, pitfalls that happen with VAs that if you were to explain with to someone else who was just about to hire VA, be like, avoid this or try and get this prepared, or is there anything that comes to mind when I say that, Maddie?

So there's a lot of, um, agencies out there that will let go and like staffing firms but for VAs.

Oh cool.

Who will, um, charge you way more than what the VA actually wants to be paid. And so obviously that's staffing in a nutshell, but I just found it the best way to do it because I had used one of those groups and I had someone that was with me for about maybe 8 months and she was fantastic, but then she got pulled to another job. So I knew like, hey, if I go this route, it's going to be, you know, the same over and over again. I'm going to train them and then they're going to go leave for another project. So I just went out on LinkedIn and found people that I could hire direct and pay them just via Payoneer or PayPal or however else. and that was also key too, because then you can pay them for more hours because you're not having to pay this agency as well. Um, awesome. And when I did that, you know, the tenure of the VA has been double what it was before.

So crazy. Great tip, really great tip.

Love that. Other sites that we've used as well for other listeners, Fiverr and Upwork is really good for any VAs. So that's quite a— because you could just literally do an advert that, which is cool, saves some time. And then, and then all these, um, VAs just start coming to you, which is cool.

Yeah.

Um, so you've also talked about— I'm trying to think if there's anything else we can cover on VAs because it's such a big topic. Sam, did you have any, any other questions on that one, or should we move on?

Um, no, I don't think I did, sadly.

And I also— so I use a VA as well, um, and virtual assistants. So I think a lot of people coin it as that when they're offshore, but for me, I'm like they're contractors, right? They own their own business, they do their own consulting. Um, so Angie's been with me for, gosh, maybe close to 2 years at this point. I've got to look back. Um, and then Grace, who I hired to do the podcast, she's also in the Philippines. She is fantastic, amazing at what she does, so organized, um, on top of everything. I've never had somebody be more just with it, um, which helps keep me on task with the podcast as well. Um, and then I also, um, have somebody in the Philippines that does all the social media content. So I provide all the ideas, so I'm generating the idea and the content strategy, but she's actually going on Canva, creating all the graphics, and then posting it. And so that's been extremely helpful. And those 3 people probably save me 40 hours a week.

Crazy. That is nuts.

One of the problems I had, now that I come to think of it, of hiring VAs is some of them— not like every hire— some of them were like brilliant and some of them just were absolutely rubbish. And it was difficult sometimes to find that process to weed out the people that were going to be good or bad because they have similar levels of experience. And so I was judging off personality. And values and characteristics. Like, was this more of an intuitive process for you of hiring the right person? Did you have to like go through quite a few people? Like, did you have any tips for people to find, you know, those driven, hardworking VAs that like you have at the moment?

To be honest, it wasn't super hard for me, but I think the key thing that— the reason why I don't always really even call them a VA or treat them differently than I would Stacy, who's on the team here in the US is I don't treat them like they're less than. And so I've never really had a problem with tenure. So I had another— or I'll use a VA for now on the, the scope of the podcast. So, um, I had another VA that was with me who we had gotten kind of low on business at the end of last year, and I was needing to hire another full-time person, so I had let her go, but she still reaches out to me like, hey, when you need help, I'm here. I want to work with you because every other boss that I ever had literally makes me like timestamp everything that I'm doing. They micromanage me to death. They don't give me flexibility. You know, she was a young mom. She sometimes had to work odd hours, but that was fine as long as the work got done. Um, same thing with Angie. She's a young mother. She has a 3-year-old, and if she works overnight or she has to work in the morning or whenever, that's fine. I'm okay with that. Um, I don't make them sign on and sign off to track how many hours they're working. I trust them. Um, and because of that, I've had great loyalty from the people that I've worked with. Um, I had a social media manager before a recent person that I hired who was with me for, I think, a year and a half, and she was going back to school and she came to me and said, hey, like, I've really enjoyed this job, but I won't have time because I'm going to study again. And, um, I've never had a problem with them not showing up, not delivering work, not, um, communicating when they need to be out because you just set that standard and you treat them like you would anybody else. But I think a lot of recruitment owners think like, oh, they're offshore, I can treat them like crap and not give them the time of day and not train them and not coach them. And just expect the results to come. And I think that's the biggest issue that I see.

Really interesting.

Yeah.

Um, I'd love to get on to tech stacks. Um, I think nowadays there's so many softwares out there, it's, it's unbelievable. It's actually overwhelming how many softwares there are. And I, and I had a chat about this with someone else the other day, and now the trick is, is being selective, I think, and really being disciplined with what you need and what you don't. Me and Sam went through an overhaul and we had about, I don't know, 15 softwares that we were just like using that we just— yeah, it was ridiculous, honestly. There's so many softwares we've signed up for that we use for a little bit and just did and then just forgot about. And I suspect we're not the only people, maybe we're a bit extreme, but I suspect there's other people out there that have software sitting in, you know, on their desktop that they just never use. But I love, um, what you do, Maddie, because you sound very disciplined with what you use and there's a few core tools and technology that you use Can you tell us what those are and, and what they do for your business and why you've chosen those ones?

Yeah, and I'll be the first to admit that when I started my business, I 100% got wrapped up in like, I've got to have this and I've got to have that and I've got to have this tool. And I remember just sitting there one day and I was trying to use so many different tools and they all didn't talk to each other that I was like, I guarantee you that if I broke down how many, like, how much administrative time I am using just trying to go in between these things, that if I turn that time into cold call time or BD time or whatever time, that I would be far ahead than if I worried about the software. So what I've done is try to find tools to where I can stay lean, but still have the full functionality of what I need. So we do use automation, we do use AI, but we're not using 15 different kinds of it. So our ATS, we use Recruitlee. Um, it's a smaller company, they're in the UK, and their system has integrations with Apollo, which allows us to automate LinkedIn connections, messages, sequencing. It also has a full database. It gives us buyer intent data. It is a mega house. And in healthcare, I find the data to be pretty accurate. I know some other people have complained in other industries, but for me it works. And then, so that talks to the system. So I can push candidates from Apollo into Recruitlee. I can make marketing and targeted BD lists based on people that I'm sourcing on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is the other tool we use, Sales Navigator. And that all also works with a Chrome extension on Recruitlee. So if I'm doing BD, I can add them right from LinkedIn. I can then pull their information from Apollo and have that completed profile in the system without ever having to manually import or export anything.

Awesome.

That's so cool. So it's, so it's the main 3 tools, if I'm not mistaken, are Apollo, Recruitlee, and LinkedIn Sales Navigator. Are those the 3 main ones?

Those are the 3 main ones from a recruiting and BD standpoint. Obviously, um, you know, smaller things— it integrates with DocuSign. So when I have a new contract that I want to send out, I have a template in DocuSign. I can do that right from Recruitlee in the system. It'll save the information. And then as I make a placement, I use, um, Xero software. And as I make a placement, I can record all the billing in the system, and it's integrated with my billing system as well. So that I can track invoices with placements, pull reports as need be. I can run payroll from Recruitlee, so it's integrated with Gusto, which is integrated with Xero. So everything that we're using talks to each other, um, and that just lessens the administrative burden so that you don't have to go crazy spending 10 hours a week trying to go in between everything.

Yeah, that, that's the key word I'm getting from this is, or the key area is they all talk to each other, so it's like a seamless integration with softwares that all work as one. Because yeah, that's, that's really interesting.

Um, I'm just curious, um, Maddie, because I know a lot of people use Apollo because you said it gives you a lot of data on companies, and I'm guessing that data helps with BD in certain circumstances. Is there any particular data you're looking for if you do use it for BD? And if so, what are you looking for and how does it help you, help you with your BD out of interest?

Yeah, so I will say the buyer intent data for the niche that we're within is not fantastic because we work with private practice practices and a lot of times, number one, they could be not on LinkedIn, which is where it's pulling a lot of its BD content from. But secondly, what I find to be the most helpful is that I set basically alerts. Alerts. So I build lists based on my target candidates and clients so that if a new private practice within orthopedics and sports medicine or pain management pops up, I get an alert to my email that says this company was just added to this list in your system. So I can go check them out. If there's a new spine surgeon that all of a sudden populates for spine surgeons in the Southeast, it will send me a notification so that I'm also staying on top of any new hot leads. Um, being the first to introduce myself so that I'm not having to go out and figure that information out. It's automating that process.

Love that. So you get, you get an update of any new candidates and any new clients, and for the candidates you're just doing a warm intro and introducing yourself. Are you doing the same for the clients? Are you messaging them straight away and just doing a warm intro? Is it similar, or—

yeah. I'm either doing that or I'm just looking to see their insights. So I'll go on to LinkedIn and Sales Navigator when a new company pops and I'll look at their insights there because Sales Navigator has a really cool section where you can see like their growth metrics, their average tenure, when their hiring times are higher than lower, what part of the company are they hiring? Is it administrative? Is it healthcare services? Is it finance? So that we know like, okay, if it's simply administrative, then probably they're not hiring for the types of roles that we're providing candidates for, but we can reach out and share that data with them to once again add value without expecting anything in return. So that's one way that we couple those two together. And then I usually just screenshot that information in Sales Nav and pop it off in an email to say, here's some insight I found. You know, obviously this is only speaking true to those on LinkedIn, but how true does this seem? You know, is this accurate? Um, so there's little things like that that you can find ways to play with both the systems and actually extract the data rather than just sit there on a tool and go, what am I supposed to do with this, right? Because sometimes they have too much going on that we fail to focus on the fundamentals.

Yeah, really interesting.

Awesome. Um, I don't think I've got any more questions. Um, Maddy, this has been really insightful. I've really enjoyed having you on. I can't believe it's nearly, uh, it's nearly finished, which is insane. This— we always say good, good podcasts fly by, so we know this has been a good podcast because, uh, time has been lost for me and Sam. So it's been really, really good having you on. Um, just thank you so much, been really insightful. Um, you sound like an amazing recruiter, an amazing person, and I suspect you're going to be— continue to be very successful. And just, yeah, thanks so much for your time, Maddy. Really appreciate it.

Of course. Thanks for having me on. Hopefully this helps other recruiters, and if you have questions about anything, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Awesome.

Thanks, Maddie. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.

Mm-hmm.