How to Travel the World and Close $200k in 6 Months

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Camille De Brun. Camille has a crazy story. After being let go from one of the biggest gaming companies in the world, Riot Games, she decided to go traveling, and having such an epic experience, she didn't want it to end. So she started her own recruitment business and continued on her journey. In 6 months, she's been to multiple different countries. She's had magical experiences that will stay with her for the rest of her life, and she's managed to close $200K worth of business. On today's episode, we're going to be discussing Camille's exact BD strategy that she's used to create a brand new client base from scratch, her exact candidate outreach method that got her the famous title the Candidate Whisperer, and we're going to be reminded why making money is great, but why having fun is just as important. Me and Ben had so much fun on this one, guys. We loved speaking to Kamil. We hope you enjoy this podcast as much as we did. And as usual, grab a cuppa or glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. And let's get into it, shall we? Kamil, welcome to Top Billers Toolkit. We were referred to you by one of our good friends, Mike Anderson, and any guest referred by Mike Anderson is epic. Um, so thank you for coming on. You've got an amazing story to share, and I'm really excited about this.

I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Absolute pleasure. Um, we always start the pod with this same question, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software? What would you say, Camille?

Number one tool in my toolkit, I'm gonna go mindset. Consistency. Just have a goal in mind and just be consistent every day and kind of just close your eyes, just keep taking the steps to get there. Because if you're consistent, it's really anything in life, you'll, you'll get there. But I'm a big mindset person.

Awesome. We— mindset is the biggest answer from all the recruiters. We should probably change that question to something else because literally everyone says mindset. Um, yeah, I would usually ask you a follow-on question to this, but I want to get right into your story, Camille, just because I find it really cool. And I'm slightly jealous because I want to also, like, just be in your life for a bit. Um, can we start from the beginning of your story of working at Riot Games and then what happened after that? I, I want to keep it really high level and just let you explain, like, what happened and where you are now.

Definitely, yeah. So I was an internal recruiter at Riot Games, which is a huge video game company. They're most known for League of Legends. For all the gamers out there, great game.

Yeah, me and Ben and Nags, we used to play that.

We were addicted to it.

And I love Riot, so love to hear that. So I worked there for about 4 years as an internal tech recruiter, so I hired software engineers. Um, everything was great there, but I definitely, you know, I always wondered, you know, is there, is there more for me outside of this? Like, can I have a higher ceiling? You know, where am I going? Where am I going? But I was really comfortable because as I said, I love Riot. You know, it's a great company, has great community. I had great friends and it's, even if you have on your mind, you know, maybe I wanna do something else or maybe I wanna challenge myself more. It's really hard to do that when you're comfortable. So I had that on my mind and at the same time, I've always loved traveling and I had some friends that were quote unquote digital nomads. So friends that worked remote and were traveling around and living around the world. And honestly, I was, so jealous of them. I would see what they were doing, I was like, oh, um, because we were remote at Riot, but we needed to be, you know, in the area. We did go to the office sometimes, etc., etc. January 2024 rolls around and they did a huge layoff. Um, a lot of tech companies over the past few years have done layoffs, and of course, like, recruiting is going to be an early one to go if the company is slowing down, they're definitely not hiring. So I got laid off, um, and I really took that to be like, okay, you know, what are my next steps? Do I want another just tech recruiting job, or do I really want to consider taking this as an opportunity to do something different? And I was actually in Mexico City at the time I got laid off, and so I was already in the travel mindset, and I kind of thought, you know, what if I could just keep doing this and just extend this and, and be able to travel? And so really, at the same time, I, I kind of just did everything at once. I said, okay, how do I travel? What do I do about getting laid off? Like, do I get a new job, etc., etc.? What am I going to do? And really, I thought the best way to be able to travel work remote, do whatever I want would be to be my own boss. So I decided at the same time to start my own business recruiting, start my own recruiting agency, and simultaneously to give up my apartment. My— I had an apartment in LA at the time. Give up my apartment, put everything in storage, and just send it and go who knows where. I really had No, no plan in mind. Just, I emailed my landlord and said, all right, in the lease, we're doing this.

That's so cool. So you were in Mexico City when all this happened? So you, you released your apartment in Mexico City and someone else put your stuff in storage, so you didn't even come back to finish stuff off?

No, I did, I did go back. I went back for close to a month to just get everything ready, get the stuff in storage. I, if I had a friend that would do that for me, that would be amazing, but that's a lot of heavy lifting. Cool.

Can I, um, jump in there because I feel like most people who are listening to this might be like, well, I know if I heard that story, I'd be like, oh my God, that sounds so, uh, risky. And you know, how's she going to make money? And is it going to work? And actually, you've hit $200K in 6 months, which is insane. You know, it's a really very respectable figures whilst you're traveling and starting a new business, uh, Camille, which is crazy. So what I would love to know, just get into the juicy bits, how did you hit those numbers so quickly? Do you think— I know you had recruitment experience. You weren't completely fresh to recruitment, but how did you start picking up new clients and how did you get the ball rolling to kind of start making money, do you think?

Yeah, and it's— you mentioned people might be, might be scared. Yeah, it's definitely not, you know, it's not a casual decision. Well, it's not roses and daisies. Of course I had fear, you know, of course I was nervous. And, and I will just say, like, getting laid off is a huge hit to the ego. That's one of the hardest things about it, you know. That makes you question your self-worth. So I definitely, I'm, I will be real. I, I started on that note of wondering, you know, was I, was I part of the problem? Even though I was, I know that I was not. There's definitely those doubts that are in your head. So I'm sure people listening to this are people that have those doubts, imposter syndrome, et cetera, et cetera. So I definitely had that going. And there has to come to a time though when you ignore the, the mind and the imposter syndrome, which brings me to your, to your question of, you know, Where did I start? I definitely started at ground zero. I decided to switch industries actually. So I had been doing tech recruiting and I decided to switch into legal recruiting. And the reason for that was because I really wanted to start in a market that I knew was really stable. I felt like tech was a bit volatile at the time. As I had gotten laid off, I knew a lot, I knew a ton a ton of other people that had gotten laid off. It was just so up and down and I was like, okay, what are, what are markets that are going to be just always hiring right now? I knew legal was one. I knew finance was probably a decent option as well, but I chose legal. It was slightly familiar to me. I have some family members that are attorneys, but overall I really did start in a market where I had very minimal knowledge. So getting new— was that your question? Getting— how did I get new clients?

Yeah, I mean, it's— I, I completely, uh, forgot Sam told me that you not only did you start a new business and traveling, but you started in a new market as well.

Great.

You know, legal, which is notoriously, I think, quite hard to penetrate, um, because it's quite old school. And I've heard that a lot of them are kind of stuck in their ways. And it's so— yeah, really impressive. So yeah, I would love to hear— I'll shut up and let you continue speaking, Camille.

Um, you're correct, it is, it is an old school market, and I, I learned very quickly. So in picking up new clients, the hardest, the hardest thing to do is to start when you start from nothing. 'Cause you have no momentum. Mm-hmm. You have nothing. You don't have a candidate, you don't have a resume.

Yeah.

And the big thing is it really, it just takes one. Mm-hmm. It just takes one candidate. It just takes one client. You just have to get momentum. And sometimes, but just getting one can be hard. So the first thing I did was I actually just tried to get a small network of candidates. So as I was picking out, you know, okay, what are, what are law firms, you know, who should I be emailing or calling or whatever? I was connecting with people, attorneys on LinkedIn and trying to get a network of attorneys that were on the market and resumes, specifically resumes that I could share and sell to clients. And I'm going to mention the imposter syndrome several times because And my guess is that many recruiters feel some of that. It's like, well, do I have a right to message candidates when I don't even have any clients? Do I have a right to email clients when I don't have any candidates? That's why I say starting out is, is really tough. But what I learned is that people, you, you are your own worst enemy. People don't really care. People, people are gonna trust you if you know how to sell yourself. People are gonna trust you. So I learned super quickly candidates were willing to talk to me even if I said, hey, I'm being honest, I don't have a lot of clients right now. I'm just starting out, but I'm gonna get 'em. Like, can I have your resume? Most candidates did not care. They said, sure. Oh wow. Let me know if you get a client. Like, I'm, I'm too, I'm so busy working, I don't have time to look. So this is better than nothing for me. So that was like that was a great starting point for me is just getting a couple resumes. So then when I went to clients, I didn't have to feel so, oh my gosh, I have nothing. I can't even talk to you. So then when I started reaching out to clients, I just had one resume, two resumes, three resumes. It was something to give me a little momentum to try to get that first client. You mentioned law being old school. Definitely is. I had so many law firms just email, one, not respond, but if they responded, so cold, just no, you know, no time for you. All caps. No, I sometimes I got all caps, no exclamation point.

Oh my God.

Like, people can be such douchebags.

Yeah.

It's like, why do that?

Why'd you say, just say no. Like, stop being a douchebag.

I would, I was screenshotting things and sending to my friends cuz some of the things I couldn't believe, it'd be like all caps. Stop emailing me. It's me behind the screen. I'm like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. So yeah, you have to have some thick skin for the legal field, which is going to be another public theme of this is having thick skin. It's just like, you're going to get told no a lot and it's not going to feel good. Get over that.

100%. Do you remember your first client that you won, Camille? And do you remember like where you were? Can you just paint a picture for me? Because that first one is quite a big one. And I know you had— just to provide context— I know you had 6 months runway before you came out to travel. Am I right in saying that?

Yeah, I, I, I, I do want to note that I was really grateful to get a good severance package from my company to have some runway, because it's really tough if you don't, you know. I think You could get by with, with definitely less, but if you have a little bit, is, is a huge help.

So yeah, that being said, the first client is still— that's a turning point, isn't it? So can you just paint me a picture? Do you remember where you were and what happened?

Absolutely, yeah. And I think that the first client is a turning point because it's that momentum. I— one thing I want to note first though is when I was in Vietnam, that was the first place I went. I got client meetings booked pretty easily, but the hardest part was saying no when I knew it was not going to be a good agreement, when I was desperate to get one client.

Interesting.

Well, because you're doing all this work, you know, you're, you're cold outreaching to clients and you just, just want one because it's so boring to work when you have no, no clients. Just emailing is not fun, or whatever you're doing for your outreach. And I got a couple client meetings booked, and it was clients that I could tell were not going to be good clients. They, they— it was bad agreements, bad terms, not good percentages of the fees. And it was so tempting to, oh sure, I'll just take it. But I held my ground and I stretched longer even though it was uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to not make money and not me closing deals, but I knew I didn't want to start with bad clients, with bad terms that were not really worth my time. So I held out. And actually in the second place I went, when I really kicked up, really started working, which was when I was, when I was in Barcelona, Spain, is when I got a client and I started to get comfortable with pushing back with clients too and fighting for better terms. And it was an insurance defense law firm in Raleigh. Raleigh. Yeah. And that was the first one where I was like, oh, I can push back and people will do what I— will do what I want. They will go for the percentage I want. If I want 25% of the fee or whatever it is, like, really push back and it will work. Maybe not every time, but a good amount of the time.

Really interesting. What amazing, uh, transformation that must been for your confidence, um, going from— yeah, what, what would— so I'm just curious, the terms that you weren't happy with, what were these lawyers, what were these companies proposing to you, Akimo, that you weren't happy with?

Yeah, I'll give you an example. I remember the first client call I booked was with a law— I won't say any names— it was with a law firm in, I think it was Miami. And I got on the phone with their, I think it was their CFO or COO, and she said, We work with recruiters, we do 18%, we will not negotiate. By the way, this is a hard environment to hire for. We have a low retention rate.

Wow.

Oh my God.

Yeah. I don't want to go lower than 25% of the fee. You are, you're saying you refuse to negotiate and you have a low retention rate and people don't even want to work there. That's not gonna work.

Yeah, God, that's crazy. Some companies are just insane the way they try to negotiate with recruiters. It's just like, it's, it's mind-boggling.

Do you remember what you said, Camille? Because you said you, you could push back, and, and I'm, uh, you might not remember this because it's, you know, it's quite specific, but do you remember what you said to push them back up to 25% if that happened? Um, or do you remember what you said to push back just full stop on that Yeah.

So that first one, they didn't even want to entertain negotiating. So I just said no harm, no foul. Yeah. But when people did, yeah, I had a— I was talking to a firm and they said, you know, well, we usually do 18%, we've done 20%, I want 25%. And really what I make it clear is, you know what, I'm— my, my skill is getting candidates, and I can send candidates to different firms. And if, if my fee with you is 18%, how can I make you the priority? I want you to be that firm, that firm that I'm— I want to send them to this firm. I want you to be my priority. So if you'll move up to that 25% or what— or whatever it is, you're going to be the top of my list, and you're going to be the first person I want to contact. And that, that's something I use several times with that. That really helps a lot. And you just push back and you don't even have to say that much. You just say, this is what I charge and you're going to see it's worth it. And sometimes it doesn't— it doesn't even take that much at all. It's just actually asking.

Interesting. And just to clarify as well, that first client you won, was it, was it speccing in a good candidate? Was that how you got the conversation started? Was it Was it that way?

Correct. That, that's still what I do with a lot, with the majority of firms I get. And not always now, but, but, but commonly is having at least one, if not a few resumes of people in the area. And then that's where you got to do some research. You know, I'm not sending a corporate, you know, corporate transactions attorney to a personal injury firm. You got to be smart. You know, when you're sending, sending candidates, you have to do a little research, look on their website, look who works there, look if they're hiring, and try to give them a candidate that could actually be the hire. And if not, just do the best you can because that's going to give you credibility as well. And you always want to be building credibility with your client.

Awesome. Awesome.

We usually go really technical in these, but I want to go back to the travel aspect because I just find it so unique as a recruiter, like Recruiters can literally work from a phone and a laptop, and 99% of the recruiters I speak to are stuck in an office, which is just insane. And you've obviously taken advantage of that. Um, how many countries have you been to in— you've been traveling for a year now, Camille, am I right in saying that?

Correct.

Cool. And how many countries have you been to during that period?

Yeah, or a little bit, let's say like 8 months. Um, cool. Okay. I'm gonna count Mexico City if we count with ideas.

Yeah.

Mexico, Vietnam, Barcelona, London. Hey. Yeah. Yeah. My visa ran out in Spain and I said, where's the closest place I can go on a different visa? And it was, it was London. Okay. Um, sorry, I need to turn off my notifications if you heard it.

It's okay.

Don't worry. It's okay.

Um, Okay, so how many? Okay, so Mexico. Let me count again. Mexico, Vietnam, Barcelona, London, Sevilla, Spain, Paris, and now I am in Costa Rica. So that's 7.

Amazing. That's so cool.

Yeah.

And what's, um, sorry, Ben, did you have a question?

Yeah, no, you ask another one, Sam, because I like the technical questions. So I'm going to—

yeah, I just want to understand because I find like running a business is hard enough when you don't move, when you're just sitting in a desk with no distractions, no traveling, no internet issues, whatever, whatever. So let— you did that, you know, while traveling all these different countries.

What was—

and there might not be, you know, it might have actually been quite easy, but what— were there any difficult things when it comes to like traveling and running a business? Camille, do you remember any specific things that happened along the way? You were like, oh shit, that's enough.

There's a few things, and it's, it's, it's, it's silly little things that make all the world of a difference, like Wi-Fi and cell phone connection. Um, a big thing for, for recruiting, we're on the phone all the time, and we also— I, I text all the time. So when I go to foreign countries, a lot of times travelers will just get a local SIM card and maybe change their number and just use, you know, WhatsApp or whatever, or social media to talk. But I can't lose my phone number because I like to text with my US number to candidates. So that was a roadblock I had to figure out, like, okay, what am I doing with my phone? So I looked into tons of different things from different carriers, international plans to eSIMs, which I am a huge fan of now, is eSIMs and all kinds of— and there's so many different things, but I find the best for that is an international plan or an eSIM. I think an eSIM is the best personally. So that's a little thing. And a specific example is also, okay, you know, you never know what your Wi-Fi is going to be. Also, I'm currently in Costa Rica and I haven't encountered this yet, knock on wood, but I've been told there's a lot of, um, building going around the town I'm in because there's tourism is really growing. And I've heard that sometimes just the power shuts out in the entire city a whole day.

Oh my God, that's crazy.

That hasn't happened yet, knock on wood, but You have to be ready to roll with the punches. So if that happens, it's okay. But when I was actually in London, the house that I was renting, an apartment, excuse me. And little did I know the Wi-Fi was terrible to the point where I could not even take a video call because it couldn't handle the Zoom connection. Flipped out because I'm thinking, okay, I can't even— one thing was figuring out the phone number and I had an international plan at the time, but now I can't, don't even have Wi-Fi. So we have that problem. So what I ended up doing was I panicked one day because I had a super busy day and I marched over to, I think it was at the tube station. They had a bunch of phone carriers and different internet service providers and I went to one and I got a portable hotspot device. And then I walked to the next place and they gave me a little, a data plan to put on the portable hotspot. So I had my international phone number, I had my Wi-Fi at home that was horrible, and then I had my portable hotspot that would give me data. So I, I used that for the entire time in London because the Wi-Fi was so bad. It never got better.

I couldn't do that. I'm, uh, I'm, I'm like, uh, Yeah, I couldn't do that, but it sounds— I'm sure you have a lot of fun in the process as well. But I'd love to jump to— because you, despite, despite this, like, sounds like some chaos, you managed to build a lot and also have this consistency, which I'd love to go into. So I just want to go back to you winning your first client, and past that point, what do your daily activities look like on a consistent, like, basis for you to maintain that momentum and then, you know, start getting more clients on? If you don't want me asking.

Yeah, I am a huge goal-setting individual. If I have a goal, if I hit that goal, we move on. It's like, do what you need to the goal and move on. And I'll keep saying, I'm a smarter, uh, work harder— work smarter, not harder, excuse me— type of person. So I like to set goals every single week. And this is absolutely a phrase from Mike Anderson, who's been on this podcast, not myself, but it's just filling the top of the funnel. So sourcing candidates, doing business development for clients, sourcing candidates, doing business development to get new clients, and keep doing those things instead of focusing on like, okay, I have to close this deal, and stressing, stressing, stressing. Just keep filling the top of your funnel and you don't have to stress because you're going to have enough coming in that if not everything works out, it's okay, you can just move on. So So my goal is every week, well, I might set a certain goal to where, okay, I wanna sub X number of candidates to this client. I wanna sub— submit, you know, if people don't know that terminology, submit X number of clients to this client. Maybe pick up one more client, just using this hypothetically as examples, but these are similar to, to real things I do. And then If I hit those goals, great. Everything else is just extra. Maybe I, maybe I do extra, or maybe I go to the beach and I don't do it and enjoy my life.

So love that.

And let's say you want to get one— let's say you want to get one new client, or maybe that's the objective. I'm always curious about people's volume, like how many email— I know this varies, you know, from, you know, it might vary occasionally, but how many emails are you sending on a day-to-day basis, do you think? Like what's the average that, that, you know, a recruiter should be doing, do you think, to to make sure that top of the funnel is always being filled?

It, it does change for me. In the beginning, I steadily did an outreach of 5 client outreaches a day. So I would outdo 5 different firms, and I would email— I think, I think it was 7 or 8 people at the firm. And I would do that every day, and I would follow up a series of usually 4 times I had shorter versions of that, but that 5 every day will for sure get you clients. But then it came to a point where I actually didn't need to do that much because I was getting too busy and slowed down. So now, now I ebb and flow it. And to, to give you an example, if I'm in a maybe a ramp up period where I do really wanna really ramp up, sure, I'll do that sequence and that will, will work like a charm. If you're doing 5 companies a day, you're gonna get a lot of clients and you're not gonna have problem once you just with consistency and giving it, giving it a little time and having that thick skin. But now sometimes I, sometimes I don't want to do that much because I maybe don't want that many new clients. So for example, this week I really zeroed in. I actually did kind of the opposite. I knew that I wanted to get a personal injury firm in Atlanta. I specifically wanted that market for a reason. It's a, it's a, it's a really good law market. Specifically for personal injury, and I didn't have any clients in Atlanta. So instead I did my research and I kind of had a hit list of 5 or 6 firms that I really wanted to work with, and I just was, I refused to not get one of those firms. And so yes, I'm digging around for emails, but I'm also on LinkedIn sending voice notes, and I ended up sending a guy a message on LinkedIn. I connected with him and I sent him a message on LinkedIn and a voice note and told him to check his email. And out of that process, I actually got 2 new clients.

Amazing.

But I didn't do a lot of outreach cuz I just really knew exactly what I wanted. But that, that method I would not recommend all the time. Sometimes you do just wanna be consistent and just do a bunch all the time. It really depends, I think, where you are from week to week.

Really interesting. And just to confirm, Kamil, you said, um, at the beginning stages, 5 companies and then 7 decision makers within each company. Am I right in saying that?

Cool.

Okay. Really interesting.

Yeah.

Who are— because that's really— because I actually thought you were going to say a much higher volume of clients. Interestingly, 5 clients, I'm sure. But then when you said 7 decision makers each, I was like, okay, actually that adds up to quite a lot of emails. So who, who are you— because that's quite a lot of decision makers— or who are you targeting in an average law firm? Like, who, who are the decision makers, and are you sending the same thing to all of them? Like, what's the sequence and who are the people, if that would be asking?

The great thing about law is that typically— not always, but typically— they do advertise themselves because they want business as well. So I find it's a— I really like that about law versus tech, is that in software, engineers aren't putting out their information because they don't need to talk to anyone. but a lawyer is going to maybe put their email, maybe put their phone number on their website because they want to be contacted by clients. That's super helpful. So I typically do, uh, with a law firm, you know, if they have something like a CEO or, or COO, that's great, but not, not all law firms do. So if they have something at the C-level, of course I'll hit it. But if not, um, pretty much every law firm's gonna have a founder or a managing partner. So those are gonna be some titles you'll look for. So I'll, I'll, I'll do the founder or founders. I'll message managing partners and then from there I'll just do partners kind of at random. But any one partner level above is typically who you want to hit.

Got it.

Yeah, that's really helpful.

And then I almost left this out. If they have an HR person, some do, some don't. Some have an HR director, some have a recruiter. So if they have that person, of course I'm gonna, I'm gonna message them because they're gonna get annoyed if you're leaving them out.

Yeah.

And, and are you speccing and sending a similar email with a, you know, we're changing their name? Is it this like a similar email to all of them, or do you, you know, do you have to change it for every person? What's your feeling?

I have a, I have a template I use that's fairly similar. What I will change is I will address the person and who they are at the firm. So of course I'll, I'll personalize it to, to who they are, say, oh, hey, I see that you're Managing partner at the firm or whatever it is. And then depending on the firm, I, I'm always, if I can, I am selling a candidate that I'm working with. And so I may kind of change up a little tidbit that I say about the, about the candidate. 'Cause a big thing is you always want to be selling something, whether that's a client or a candidate. So if you're selling that candidate, you might want to tweak what, something about them to the person, but. But usually for each— for a firm, for one firm, I'm saying a pretty similar template. It's where I'm changing is on, on the firm.

Got it. Oh, I've got so many questions, Sam. Can I go, or do you want to have—

Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead, man.

Thank you. Um, cool. Thank you, Kim. This is really interesting. And what I would love to just go a little bit deeper into, if it's okay with you, is, is what you're saying in— so you've got this amazing candidate are you leading mainly with the achievements and like what this candidate has accomplished? Are you going in with pain and saying this candidate can fix it? Like, what's the angle you're approaching in order to get their attention in the email, if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a mix of things, but typically I'm selling their experience and their niche. Um, I don't typically I don't typically go in on a pain because honestly I don't know what the pains are. So I'm more just, what I do know is how good this person is. I know they have 10 years of experience in XYZ type of law and they went to this school or they're, maybe they have their own clients that they're bringing with them at this value. So I'm going to sell what I know I can sell. I'm not going to fix what I don't know what the, when I don't know there's a problem.

What's the problem? I know Mike's strategy with email is very much conversational and like being natural. How do you apply that to— because I know law is quite— my dad is a solicitor, so we're like, we're part of the— but they're a bit more, as Ben said, old school. And so can you be more conversational with email or do you not need to? Do you just like, are you just really kind of rigid and that works? I'm just interested with the tone of the email.

I am always myself no matter what. So I am conversational. I might not be as jokey, fun, and flicker as Mike, but I am myself and that's gonna be bubbly. I'm putting my exclamation points, I'm putting my smiley faces, I'm sending a voice note sounding just like this. And it hasn't been a problem. I think if anything, it stands out. Am I respectful? Of course. Am I credible? Do I try to sound intelligent? Of course. But am I going to be fun and bubbly? Always. That's the best. I'm always going to be myself, and that's never going to change.

I'm always interested in follow-up sequences as well because, um, like, I'm curious, do you get your best results in the first email, or do you get it in the third or the fourth? Like, when you typically see you get the best results? And yeah, maybe I'll start with that question.

Man, I wish I could tell you it was one thing always, but it's all over the place.

All over the place. Okay.

And it probably has to do with how desperate the firm is. Sometimes maybe if a firm's really desperate, sometimes it's— I'm actually shocked sometimes when they reply on the first email. It does happen. It really does. Um, and there's also times when people have replied on the fourth email. Oh my gosh. Like So it will happen sometimes on the first, that's great, but also those follow-ups are everything.

Yeah, it sounds like from what you're saying it's less common to have people at the beginning and it's actually more later on in the sequence that people reply. Am I right in saying that?

Got it. Absolutely.

And what are you saying in the later sequences that gets them? Are you just pitching the candidate again and again, or are you like coming at a different angle? Like, again, I'm trying to kind of get into your world and see what are you saying to capture their attention, to get them to respond in like the second or third or fourth email?

Yeah. So the first email, I'm briefly describing the candidate, but I'm not— and I'm asking, hey, do you want to see a resume? Which is not my idea. That was what I got from, from Mike Anderson. But, but kind of leaving them with that question, like, can I send you some resumes? Then, then my second one is actually usually super fast, just a quick Hey, you know, following up, checking in. Then my third email, I'll send a resume because at the end of the day, you, if you're saying you have something to sell, you gotta, you gotta show it. You gotta actually have something. But I'm kind of, I'm, I'm dragging out my follow-ups because I don't wanna just have nothing else. If I just send a bunch of resumes on the first email, then I have nothing else to give in my follow-ups. So I'm thinking, how can I draw this out? How can I kind of bait them in the first and then, okay, then we'll send another follow-up in the third. Let's finally give them a resume. And then the fourth, maybe I'll give a couple more resumes. So I'm thinking of how I can like draw this out and keep asking them, you know, can I send another resume? You know, can we get on the call? Not just being open-ended, like, here's some resumes, like, let me know if you wanna talk. Never, never a let me know. Let me know you're gonna, never hear from somebody.

Interesting. Got it. That's really helpful.

And so third is resume.

And sorry, what was the fourth?

Was you just, you know, keep on seeing good people?

Yeah, let's, let's say I had, let's say I had 3 resumes. Maybe on the third email I'm going to send one, uh, one resume, and then on the fourth I'll, I'll say, you know what, all cords out, this is my final Hail Mary, you know. Here's also, um, XYZ resume. Do you want to talk? Do you want to interview? Do you want to interview candidates?

Yeah, great. It's really great, uh, process, and I can see why that works. Um, you have the title over this with these questions. Sorry, sorry.

That's okay, Ben. They're really good questions. I'm glad, I'm glad you asked them, man. Um, do you want to go over to— people call you the Candidate Whisperer, Camille. I don't know how you got that title, but why do people call you the Candidate Whisperer?

Yeah, the thing that nobody likes to do is sourcing and getting candidates, but that's my thing, honestly. It always has been. It always has been. So people call me the Candidate Whisperer because I just seem to always get a candidate no matter how niche the role is and very quickly. And I can go into that in any, in any way you want.

Um, yeah, I'd love to. You kind of gave us a— there's tons of value here, Camilla, thank you. You gave us like an outline of what you're doing for the BD side. How are you getting candidates to reach— because partners are really difficult, and attorneys, like, it's a notoriously difficult industry to get people to reach out to you because they're busy, it's old school. So I'm just wondering, what are you doing that's grabbing their attention? Like specifically, then tactics-wise?

So my method of outreach is, and I'm willing to try anything, but I'm a big fan of if it's not broke, don't fix it. So I know a lot of recruiters have all kinds of software and reach out to candidates in every single way possible, but if I'm doing one thing and it's working, great. Um, so I do the majority on LinkedIn, LinkedIn Recruiter, and it really never fails me. So that's pretty much the— I am also a very bare bones business person. I do not have a lot of software and bells and whistles. I have the literal bare minimum. Like, it's basically— Recruiter is basically all about all I have. And so that's mostly where I find people and I think the key, I think the key must be my messaging. And I think it's a combo. I think it's my messaging and I think it's messaging the right people. Hmm.

Interesting. And so, well, you— sorry, Ben, it's my turn now.

Yeah.

I'm joking.

Just one more question.

I just want to— you probably already guessed this, Camille, but like, what, what are you saying to these candidates then? So let's assume you've chosen the right person. You're like, I've got this firm, I know this guy is going to be perfect. What are you saying in the message? Is it an audio note? Is it a text message? Is it— sorry, I know it's a LinkedIn message. Is it audio note, LinkedIn message? How many times? What are you saying? Do you mind just giving us a rundown on that?

Yeah, absolutely. So I mentioned you always want to be selling something. And so what I'm not doing when I'm messaging a candidate, say I'm sending an in-mail on LinkedIn, I think people can be overly vague. So I'm not messaging someone saying, hey, I have a bunch of jobs, we should talk. Like, that's not really— you're not really selling anything. So I think there's a method to be being specific while also being general. Let's, for example, let's say Let's say I have, you know, 5 jobs that could be a fit for a candidate. So I maybe I feel overwhelmed by, well, which one do I sell? There's a way to sell maybe 1 to 2 things about those jobs, but then also leave it open-ended. For example, I might say, hey, I have 3 firms. I'm hiring for 3 personal injury firms. In New York City, and I think you would like them because I might say a couple of good things about them. Maybe it's okay, maybe they're remote, maybe they're whatever it is. So I'm selling something. I'm getting specific on a few things about the job and the firm, or it's a boutique firm. You might be tired of being at this, you know, huge firm you're at. So I'm being specific. But then to give, in case I maybe missed the mark on the candidate, because obviously we are doing some guessing with LinkedIn, I might say, If those aren't perfect though, I've got a bunch of other things. So regardless, we should make the connection. So I'm being specific and then kind of like going outward to, well, also I've got all this, so we, that's why we should talk even if this is not a fit. 'Cause I think people can kind of go two extremes, either, okay, I'm just selling one job and only saying that, or I'm being so vague. So I, I try to be kind of in the middle. And I, by the way, I do personalize all my messages. I try to say something about them to, you know, I see you're here, X, Y, Z about that. So I do try to personalize things, but I honestly don't think it's the personalization that gets it. I think it's selling a job. That is—

you love that. Really valuable. Ben, any technical questions?

No, you kind of went into the question that I was going to ask, which is awesome. Yeah, that's really—

that's—

I mean, I feel like you're gonna so much value this session, Kamil. Sometimes getting strategies and tactics of recruiters is like pulling teeth out of, you know, pulling teeth really. And you've just kind of shared everything so freely and so easily. So thank you so much.

I just want to jump back to— because we're kind of done with— not done with the tactics, Ben, if you have any more, let me know. But I want to jump back to the, just the lifestyle, because again, I think that's just such a cool part of what you—

I've actually got one question. Okay, one last question. But it's just, um, if there was one thing that contributed to your success of getting to $200K in 6 months, is there one thing we haven't mentioned yet, uh, Camille, that you did?

That's a good question. I think I do— I, I do think having thick skin and not being afraid to be aggressive And which, which for me, you know, it's— I'm younger than a lot of these, way younger than a lot of these partners. It can be intimidating also, just like as a female in a very like male-dominated, old-school environment. I think it's very easy for me to have that imposter syndrome. And at the beginning, I definitely, you know, it was hard for me to push on clients. It was, it was really hard for me not to fall into that kind of passive, people-pleasy mindset. That was, that was definitely a stretch for me cuz it's just, it's so easy to just kind of, okay, kind of like scale back on things. But I really had to push myself into being more aggressive with, with candidates, with clients, with whatever it is. And, and not having that imposter syndrome of like really telling myself, it doesn't matter that you're new to this. You have a right to be here. You're good at this. And people, people don't care. They just want you to— they want the candidates, they, or they want the job. They don't care about your background. They just care what you have to give them. So, so I think just pushing past that helped me move a lot faster because I think this, sure, you can close deals, but it might take a lot longer if you're not going to be aggressive and, and put on that thick skin and be okay with pushing people. Especially in law, because lawyers, they're tough. So like they can take it back. You know, think about your industry too. Like they can bring in the courtroom. So like they can handle me saying, all right, hurry up. And I started getting really honest with clients. You know, I even had a client where I remember one time where they were just being extremely, they said they were desperate, but they were being extremely slow on getting back to me, moving candidates into process. And I said, Hey, I just called them out. I said, you're being extremely slow and this is absolutely like a waste of my time. Should I just move on and not work on this role anymore? And they immediately responded to me and said, nope, so sorry, thank you, I need, I need you to do that. Like, we're back. So I was like, really, really honest.

Yeah, I love that. That's a great message. And as you say, I think it's as long as you're filling the top of the funnel, you have the confidence, I'm guessing, as well. And that's the key, I feel like Camilla, well, there's probably a few things you said there, but because I'm guessing you were always filling the top of the funnel, you, that confidence inside you was like, okay, well, if this, if this person goes, I still have more in the pipeline. Am I right in saying that you had that, that confidence in the back of your mind that you have other options? Um, but yeah, that was really, that's really interesting. So thank you for sharing. Okay, that's it. No more technical questions for me. Thank you so much. Hey, if you have any more, I love your technical questions, Ben.

So keep them coming. I just want to go back to the travel side because some of my most beautiful memories have been traveling with my wife. I can remember specific moments like sitting under the stars in Bali, going across a— paddling across a lake in Philippines, Zanzibar. Like, it's my most beautiful memories are traveling. So I'm just wondering, since you've been setting up your business and traveling, have there been any like beautiful memories that you've collected along this journey? I just, I'm really curious to hear.

Yeah, so many. Um, my favorite place was Vietnam. Um, I loved that because I loved— I love everything about culture, food, beautiful beaches, etc., etc. Um, but there is a favorite because I, I think what I've learned in traveling is really, it really is it's so cliché, but it really is about who you're with and the communities you build. And I found that in Southeast Asia, it was really easy to meet a lot of like-minded travelers, remote workers, um, there. There's a lot of like-minded people doing the same thing, and I was able to just make an amazing community there of friends that I just built so fast. And so I think that's been an amazing part of traveling, is just when there's a lot of people that are taking risks and doing the same thing, you can really bond really quickly over that. And it's just so cool to see how fast you can make lifelong friends within the span of a couple of weeks of even getting to a place. It's, it's sort of like starting college to where you're all in the same boat. So I meet— and meeting people from all over the world has just been like so expansive and amazing.

That's so cool. Is it hard to move on when— because if I, if I was, if I was in your shoes and I met a lovely community, I would find it so difficult to go to the next country. So like, how do you decide when to move on? And like, if you found a community, what stops you from like just staying there? I'm interested.

It is hard. It can be, it can be very hard depending on the place. It was hard to leave Southeast Asia for that reason. The, the logistical reason I left Southeast Asia was because The time zone was so, so rough, which that's another, that's another hurdle is dealing with time zone barriers. But Southeast Asia and the US are— you have to basically be nocturnal. So that was a reason. And lucky for me, in some of the— some of these times though, you're not the only one leaving. A lot of times other people you're friends with are also on the go.

I see.

Sometimes I— it is sad, but you know, like it's not just you leaving, it's that kind of a lot of people are leaving and, and have a little bit more transient lives. So it comes down to several factors and, and, but you know, don't, I, I could end up just planting down in one place. Who, who knows? So don't, don't hold me to it. We'll, we'll see. Cool.

And, um, in Southeast Asia you were working, so were you working from like 8:00 PM to like 1:00 AM or 2:00 PM? Is that, was that your, your, uh, schedule?

Yeah. And I, and I did, and Southeast Asia was when I was really starting the business and I, and I definitely took it slow. So I, I was very much part-time when I was doing, when I was doing that. Um, but yeah, I did have to sometimes take meetings like 1 AM, and that was crazy. Oh, so that's why, that's why I was more part-time and just going to enjoy my couple months there and then kick it up when I, when I got to Europe after that, because I could manage that.

Love that, love it. Um, and then final question for me, and then I think That's all my questions done unless Ben has any more. What's the plan coming? Like, how long do you want to travel for? Is this going to be like another 2-year thing? Are you just taking it as it comes? Like, what's the plan? I'm always fascinated when people have started that travelling journey. Like, what's going to happen in the next couple of years? Is it decided or not?

It's not decided, I'll tell you that. I think I want to start finding places that I really love and then spending more time in those places so that, yeah, if I do build community or friends and I know, okay, I'm either going to spend longer or I'm going to be coming back, etc. So I don't want to be so much of just always going, going, going, going, going because that is exhausting. It's definitely tiring to have to figure out your way in a new place all the time. Um, how long will I travel for though? I'm really not sure. I think if you had asked me in the beginning, I maybe would've said a year. Well, now we're onto year 2 and I'm not quite feeling done. So let's see how this year goes. So I think you gotta ask me at the end of the year, honestly. But right now I don't feel done. I feel like maybe I wanna spend longer amounts of time in specific places, but I don't feel, I don't feel totally done with the, with the adventures.

Awesome. I really want to go on adventure now after speaking to you. I just want to go and book a holiday and be like, yeah, I really want to go do some BD.

Yeah. Bring your laptop. Go tomorrow.

Yeah.

My wife is so, she's such a travel junkie. She's already booking someone like travel and yeah, so we're definitely going. Last thing that just came to my head. I remember you telling me that the one of the biggest reasons you like working smarter, not harder, is so you can kind of, um, do the things in the areas, uh, and, you know, just experience the travel life. Can you just tell us a bit more about that? I'm just interested how you, how you're working smart and why you're working smarter with, within your environment.

Definitely, yeah. Um, the more why behind it is I'm the type of person where Do I want to make good money? Absolutely. But I don't want to make great money unless I'm really going to enjoy it. So I would rather have— let's, let's, let's shoot high. I would rather have $1 million and absolutely love my life than have $1 billion and be just working all the time. So you're not talking to the right person when it comes to just like work, work, work all day long. I absolutely want to crush and do well, but not at the expense of loving my life and having so much fun. So I am not burning the midnight oil working at all. How I do this is I set goals, I set goals, and if I complete them, I move on. You know, I— if I, if I source and meet my sub goal, I'm going to stop sourcing. If I meet my BD goal, I'm going to stop doing BD. So I really— it's as simple as that. It's like fill the top of the funnel. Hit the goal, go have fun. Because it's, it's why am I traveling if I'm not gonna enjoy it?

Absolutely love that, Camille. That was the perfect way to end the podcast. I think I'm done with questions. Ben, are you done with questions?

Yeah, I just want to say this has been an absolute pleasure, Camille. Genuinely, I've loved having you on the podcast. Sam has as well. And you've just given a mixture between absolute knowledge bombs and just like inspiration as well to like your courage and your confidence and the fact that you've achieved a lot in a short space of time. So well done. Genuinely well done, and thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

Thank you guys, I love it. It's so fun. I love being on podcasts, so it was great.

And one thing I just want to say that you kind of reminded me of today, Camille, is like the balance between making good money but not forgetting to have fun in life as well. I feel like that's one of the biggest things that I've come away with from here, is that money is great and I do want to make money, but never at the expense of like having a fun, happy life. And I think that a lot of people can be reminded that, especially if you're working in a city or a place where you don't actually see much nature and fun stuff.

So, thank you for that. Really appreciate it. Let's go do some BD. Sorry, I always do this to Sam. I was like—

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