"I Built A Recruitment Business Turning Over £2 Million! But I Don't Want To Grow Into A Huge Beast"

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Ollie Scott. Ollie is the founder of Unknown, a recruitment business that specializes in placing top talent into the creative industries. Ollie started off as a one-man band and grew his team to 13 strong. They're now hitting £2 million in revenue. What I found really interesting was that Ollie doesn't want to add headcount for the sake of adding headcount, which is a trap a lot of recruitment owners fall into. His real goal is to create a business of high-earning, healthy, and high-performing humans. On today's episode, we're going to be discussing how being vulnerable has made Ollie a better leader. We'll discuss the key things the top billers at his company are doing in order to perform at such a high level. We'll also be discussing a really interesting creative strategy that Ollie has implemented, which was creating a community of CEOs so he can meet wonderful people get valuable information and open doors for his company. So as usual, grab a cup of tea or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Ollie, how you doing?

I'm well, thank you very much. How are you? Yeah, really good.

Thank you so much for joining us. Um, I'm really excited to get into this one, um, for two main reasons. Well, I'm sure we're going to go through quite a few, but the two things that stood out for me were you've obviously built a really successful recruitment company doing a fair amount in revenue, which is no easy task in itself. And also just how you've branded yourself and how you've differentiated yourself is really fascinating, because I feel like especially in recruitment it's very difficult to stand out, but I feel like you've managed to do that quite successfully. So thank you for joining us today and really looking forward to getting stuck in. Thank you. So let's jump into the first question. Um, what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it's a mindset, a strategy, or a software?

Do you know, when you, uh, sent me these questions and I looked at the answer or thought about the answer for that, um, I had a really smooth answer. And as you just said it out loud, I feel like I'm going to go back on my answer. I have two things. I want to answer one for mindset and I want to answer one for strategy.

Cool.

Um, because I think both are completely different things, but they all make sense. Oh, there's a train going by if you can hear that. Mindset for me, the thing, and I think a lot of people possess this accidentally, but when they know that they have it and it is a superpower, you can really use it to your advantage. And that is vulnerability. Can't really pronounce it very well. I watched that Brené Brown TED Talk. If you've ever seen it, it's incredible. The power of vulnerability. And for a long time in my career, I always thought that, um, my openness and, uh, ability to be wrong and, uh, almost like okayness with being rejected was a weakness. And I thought I had to harden myself as a leader. Um, but as I've gone on to run a business and I've kept the trait of being able to be vulnerable with, um, my employees, with my clients, with anybody that I, I work with, I've found it leads to a really nice place. And you end up being, as a person, you feel less in conflict with yourself. Uh, I love the quote, um, authenticity is when what you think, uh, feel, and do are all aligned. And when you're unable to be vulnerable, I feel like that's you blocking yourself from being authentic with people. So that would be my mindset. Such a good answer. Really love that, mate. And then strategy, sorry to double-edged sword your question.

No, no, let's hear it.

Go ahead. I think it is better to be different than it is to be better. Whoa. Or different beats better. And I'll tell you why. When people strive to be the best recruitment company or, you come up with these funny terms like the go-to X, Y, and Z, or they're transient goals, aren't they? If I'm going to be the fastest, someone's going to be faster than me one day. Someone's faster than Usain Bolt today. Um, if I'm going to be the strongest, someone's going to be stronger than me one day. So I think if you, if you get stuck in this EST superlative place, it's a trap, and it's quite a scary trap to be because You're always looking behind you going, oh shit, who's faster than me? Who's stronger than me? Who's— and I think there's an element of that that's great for competition, but it doesn't make you different. If you pick different over best or whatever EST you've chosen, it's a very defensible place to be and it's a very powerful place to be. And I'm not just saying be different for the sake of being different. Like, you know, I'm the only recruitment company that moves people that names begin with T and something random like that. I mean, work really, really hard to figure out what it is that makes you different, because once you figure out on that thing that makes you different, it's really hard for people to imitate that. Um, so yeah, my, my, my second thing, which is a strategy, is different beats better every time.

Love those two answers. So much to unpack there. I feel like, um, I want to go back to the vulnerability thing quickly because just a few things came up in my head. The, the thing you said earlier about if you're more— if you're not vulnerable, you're blocking yourself, um, and I really resonate with that. And just going to like, I, I've been a big, um, advocate of therapy for many, many years, and I have a therapist, and I feel like the more vulnerable I am, the more power I have, because then it can't hold up. The thing that, that was latching onto my brain has no power over me anymore once you share it. And, and just to transfer that over to business, the more vulnerable Ben and I are with each other, the more we can help each other out as well. The more we keep it to ourselves, the less we can help each other. So I just, I really resonate with that. What are some ways that you found your vulnerability has helped you along your career, do you think? Um, Ollie, is there any specific things that come to mind?

Yeah, I also go to the inverse of that, and which is like, when have I not been vulnerable? Um, or, you know, when have I underdone that as a strength? Um, speak about overdone strengths and underdone strengths. And I think, uh, it's, it's easier for me to point to a place where I've been unable to be vulnerable, and that has then led to a bad thing. Um, and a lot of the time it, it will be— it's funny, I, and I, I have— I'm a huge advocate of therapists and therapy as well. I'm doing therapy at the moment to try and figure out why I have this obsession about being in service of people. And it's really interesting. Like, we'll speak about it another time perhaps, but like, quick moment. I've weirdly discovered that because I, as a, as a kid growing up, didn't have love in a traditional sense, felt like I had to be in service of, you know, my mom or people around me and do things that if I did things for them, then I would get fed or whatever, you know, get your little violin out. And I'm not saying that's a really sad situation. It's just, it means that, um, my— the way that I carry myself into work is that if I'm in servicing somebody, then I'm, then I'm being helpful. That's a good thing to know, but it's also a dangerous thing because anything that you do, I can overdo service. As a CEO, you've got to make some really hard decisions. And if you're so scared about not being in service to somebody because you're going to fire them, you might make the wrong decision because you're so scared of being in service to them. So, and me, by the way, saying that to you right now is me being vulnerable. Now, had I not have known that about myself, it would come out in a really weird way. If I was unable to be vulnerable in the moment or self-aware in the moment, it comes out in strange ways, right? You kind of, you say shit that you don't really mean. You, you act in a way that it just isn't who you are because you've not said the thing that is really the thing. We always speak about the why tree, you know, asking why, why, why, you know, 5 times and you get to the real reason. You know, if you look at a company that's heavy on KPIs or, you know, you have this CEO that wants to make all this money, right? And they're cutting everyone's commissions left, right and center. And you ask why, you know, why are we having our commissions cut? Well, because we're trying to make profit. Why are we trying to make profit? Well, because you end up getting to the end of this why tree. Well, because the CEO was bullied at school, no one liked him, and he's trying to prove to himself that he is good enough and worthy.

Yeah, yeah, it's very—

it's a deep and long way of answering your question, but I feel like we can cover up so much stuff by not being vulnerable in the moment. And if you're not vulnerable in the moment, somebody is going to start asking why until you have to be really fucking honest and say I feel like this is directly related to people's—

or lack of ability for recruiters in particular to differentiate and brand themselves correctly, because I feel like a lot, a lot of branding and differentiating— or branding in particular— is about being yourself and being vulnerable and sharing moments that— I don't know, I feel like some people may frown upon, but I feel like it could be really positive. So it's really interesting because I feel like a lot of recruiters are holding themselves back by not allowing themselves to be vulnerable online. And I don't mean— I think there's being strategically vulnerable. There's certain things that you, I think, should share, and then maybe certain things that you should keep to yourself. But yeah, it's a really interesting topic and something that I think a lot of people could learn from.

Um, the recruitment thing's interesting. Because a lot of these, you know, a lot of recruiters are in a business that has picked its strategy. And so you— the, the guidelines, or, you know, um, the room that you have to move and stand out and brand yourself differently is a lot smaller than a me who just jumped out and started their own thing. I have ultimate, you know, freedom to do that, which is good and a bad thing. Sometimes I go too far and fucking do the wrong thing, right? So I think if you're a recruiter within a recruitment company, the way that you can stand out and brand yourself is by going, okay, right, number one, um, do you guys know of Ikigai? Have you ever heard of Ikigai before?

No, I haven't.

Okay, it's like— I think I have a word for like purpose, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And the whole idea was this town that has a high level of— a high level of life expectancy, uh, is because they all do the thing that is what they're meant to do on this planet, and that is What do they, what do they love? What are they passionate about? What do they get paid for? What are they good at? And what does the world need? By doing those 4 things every single day, they're in flow state, right? So I like using the same kind of methodology for a recruiter discovering what their flow state is. What is your purpose of existence within your business? And I think the thing a recruiter can do is like, what is my lens? Yeah, I'm made up of all these unique experiences. Experiences, and I've got this story that has led me into being, you know, falling into recruitment. And I think it's, it's quite lazy to say that, like, yeah, you fell into recruitment and you've discovered that you're actually really good at it, so why don't we use that story that you've, that you've, you know, created and ended up in recruitment? Why don't we use that as your USP? What is in that story that means that your lens is a little bit different to the other person that you're up against? If you're at S3 right now and you're recruiting product designers for Series B funded businesses, what what is it about your unique story that makes you a little bit different, not better, different to the person that you're up against? And like, that's when I always speak about finding your sentence that starts like this: the only blah blah blah. So I'm the only product design recruiter at a Series B, you know, for Series B funded companies that fuck gives a shit about da da da da da, or like distancing.

I don't know. Yeah, really interesting. Um, I've actually got two examples, and this is what maybe some people can think about because they're probably thinking, yeah, that's really good, and some practical applications for the people that we work with too. There was a chap we worked with, um, who was, um, working with, uh, in the manufacturing and engineering space, and he actually did an engineering degree. And when we, when we worked with him, like, he didn't connect the dots that that could be his USP, that he's got such this, you know, he's actually got such technical depth within his field that, yeah, made him such a good recruiter. And so we use that to almost brand him and differentiate him, and it worked really, really well. And the other, the other example was working with two chaps who used to be in the Army. Again, they didn't really connect the dots that the association with the military is generally really strong. And so if you can tie that into your brand with them, um, again, it just worked really well. So it's I think it's, it's exactly what you're saying. Um, Ollie, it's like, how can you use your, your past and your story and tie that into your brand to differentiate yourself? It's really, really great advice.

Yeah.

Um, I would, um, I love that, that all that subject about branding, by the way, guys. It was really, really useful. What I would love to go on to now is, um, top billers within your team. Ollie, because I just— me and Ben love dissecting what is it that makes a top biller, what are they doing on a day-to-day basis that maybe allows them to bill more than the average. So, so I guess the question I have is, can you, can you think of a top biller on your team that's doing particularly well, and what do you think they are doing, either mindset, strategy, daily habits, that allows them to perform at such a high level?

Yeah, um, I can think of A few. I think they've all got the same thing, um, that helps them stand out between, you know, their competitors and, you know, their colleagues, essentially. Um, to be honest, I— we speak a lot about giving a shit about the people that you're representing and servicing, right? Um, they— we've never had to use LinkedIn Recruiter, um, because they understand and have captured the voices of their talent market so well. So I think the one thing that the top billers seem to do very well in my company is they will literally say what their candidates and their clients a lot of the time are thinking. And that's, again, that's an ability to be vulnerable because sometimes, you know, 2 times out of 10 they're not going to be right and they get trolled. They get trolled, um, but they're okay with that and they're, they're okay with being rejected because 80% of the time what they end up saying is resonates with people infinitely. So what we always say is get your writing to work for you whilst you're sleeping. Write something in the morning, post it whenever you want. You know, we work with a lot of US clients, so post it in the middle of the day and forget about it and see what happens. And what ends up happening over the weekend, oh my God, I read your post, I saw that thing. And I think the thing that they've managed to do is unlock the superpower of writing and it Unlocking the superpower of writing isn't just putting some good words in, in the right order. It's understanding what the minds of the people that you're trying to reach are thinking and articulating those things. So I think that's what, uh, you know, I, I can speak about behavioral things and being organized and efficient and all that kind of stuff, but if this is a branding-based focus podcast, it's worth speaking about what they have done to carve out their own niche in their own vertical. Um, yeah, I think that's what we've done pretty well.

It's really cool. Amazing. And another thing that, um, we found really interesting, um, Ollie, which is quite unique, is you said you started— we saw your post— you started a mini community, um, of CEOs called Good CEOs. I just thought that sounded really interesting. What inspired that? Why did you start that in the first place?

Uh, yeah, so I I moved my role from founder to CEO about 6, yeah, 6 months ago.

Oh, cool.

Just because I thought actually, you know, I never liked the title CEO, particularly when you're on your own and you're CEO of one. It's like, what are you doing, man? Like, I know, A, I never changed that. And B, I didn't feel like one. You know, I hate to say imposter syndrome and stuff like that, but like, I didn't feel like I was a CEO. And then after, you know, year 3 and, you know, we made so many changes and did all these things, I was like, actually, I am. And I, I want to identify as a CEO because now I want to, I want to start going out and speaking to more CEOs and understanding how they get around their roles and what challenges they face. And it is the first thing that I discovered when I started going out and speaking to other CEOs is number one, everyone is winging it. And whether they're 1 year in or 30 years in, there is so much change happening that not one person can tell you how to do this job. So that's one thing. Number 2, it's really lonely. Like, you can be a CEO and have a chairman or chairwoman and a bunch of other people on your board, but you are the person that has to make the decision. So that's lonely no matter what, no matter how big and wonderful your culture is. Um, and then, and then the third thing is that none of them speak to each other. Like, there are places where they do speak to each other, but they're not speaking to each other. They're speaking on behalf of their business and they are willy-waving or whatever the right term is that's politically correct.

I love that term. I'm going to use that from now on.

And they're going, everything is fine. They don't say I, they say we. And, you know, they, they disassociate themselves as a human being from the role that they're doing, right? So I noticed 3 things. It's lonely, it's changing the whole time, and there is no place where they can be themselves. So I thought, okay, what can I do? I can fill a room full of them and say, this is a Chatham House rules situation. It's not one of these networky things where you've got to pretend to be somebody that you're not. You have to come into this room with a problem that you're experiencing right now. So again, you're not coming into this room going, I am here, listen to my talk of how I've inspired the end. You know, it's not that. It's come in and be vulnerable and let us all pick away at your problem and see, okay, well, how has that happened? How have we solved that? The other thing I did is I made sure that I picked people that were in similar roles but not the same roles. So, you know, if it was a recruitment bunch of CEOs, I would have had a manufacturing recruitment company, engineering that would have been generally in the same sort of space. So they, although they're not competitors, they are experiencing the same general challenges. Um, and yeah, we've done two of them now, and it's— it is remarkable, the similarities, even though they're in such different roles. They all have— so, like, their problems are identical, and they all think they're unique. So they go around in a circle, they're like, oh, I don't know if anyone else is experiencing this, but we have this generational divide problem. And everyone's like, yep, yeah, yeah. And everyone's nodding away going, how do we, you know, how can we make the workplace better for Gen Z and some incredible solutions. You know, we've got a Gen Z CEO in that group who is classified as a Gen Z. And so he's like, you guys are getting this wrong. Like, you guys are getting it so— and you've got, you know, 30-year-standing CEO in that room speaking to 1-year-standing Gen Z and they're both teaching each other an equal amount of information. It's one of them going, oh, you're having trouble with your co-founders, or, oh, you're having trouble with paying yourself or whatever it is. Look, here's a tax person. They're going to help you out here. And, you know, and then the Gen Z person is turning around and going, oh, you think that Gen Z people want to hear about some purpose bullshit? No, no, no. They don't care about that. And it is. Yeah. So it's been really, really good. I'm going to do one in New York. when I go there in April. Um, so we've got 2 in London and then 1 in New York, and I'm just going to try and, yeah, permeate those— that information.

Such a great idea. I love that. Is it your turn or my turn? I can't remember. Is the, um, is this— is the long-term, um, idea of this— I'm sure there's a number of reasons why you set this up in the first place. Um, Ollie, is it— is any of it tied down to building relationships for business, or is it purely like a passion project, or what— what's the mixture here? You think in terms of long term?

Yeah, so I would say, of course, if I was saying it to my LinkedIn, I'd be like, this is an altruistic thing that I'm doing here for the purpose of good, you know. And, and 25% of that probably is the case. The reality is I run a recruitment company in the creative industry, and I want to know what my clients are thinking right now so I can make my business better.

Yeah.

If anything, it's a big focus group for me where I get to have all of my clients and people that I don't even work with maybe I would like to one day, literally open up about what they're challenging, what they're struggling with and find as a challenge. So yeah, it's, it's information for me, which is again content that I can be putting out there anonymously of what I'm hearing and seeing. Again, the— you— I always say, tell my team, we need to be problem hunters. We're not recruiters, we're journalists. We have to be looking for things that everybody are experiencing, and then we are the mouthpiece of those things, right? There is no one else in this industry that is speaking to as many human beings that have problems than we are. So let's talk about them publicly so people can see that we are the solution to those problems. And so that really, it's another problem factory or a problem incubator where I'm trying to go, what are you experiencing as problems and how can I design my business to best be a solution to those?

I feel like if more companies did what you are doing now, they would have far fewer problems with marketing, lead gen, with just all the things that they suffer with. But I can imagine that also it's difficult, or some people might struggle to say, oh, how do we get all these important CEOs in a room? You don't have to give us all your, your secrets, but what it— like, how do you, how do you start off by— what is the motivator, or how do you get people in a room like that? Because I'm guessing it's not easy.

Firstly, like, I didn't call it a roundtable. Like, It has to be for them. It can't be for me. And this is where I think a lot of recruitment companies go wrong, right? They call it a networking event or they call it a roundtable and it just sounds crap, doesn't it? Like, oh God, I've got to go and sit there and listen to these bellends wang on about their job. Like, no one wants to go and do that. So it needs to— they need to feel heard, right? They need to go— the proposition to them needs to be, okay, how are they feeling? It's lonely what you're doing, you know? How can you have all the answers? You can't. And so we're doing this thing and you drive FOMO and you say, this is a, this is a room full of people that are just like you that want to learn from each other and walk away with a full handbook of information and an empty set of shoulders where they can go, I feel heard and listened to. Thank God I did that thing. So I'm hearing them. I'm driving FOMO for them not being in that room. And I'm going up to you. There's a, there's a limited amount of spaces.

Yeah.

What I'm not doing is going, please come to this thing. We would love to have you in the room. It'd be amazing. And, you know, we can learn so much from you. And I make it about me extracting their brains and them going, fucking hell, is it a paid gig? Yeah. What am I getting there? You know, so I think that's the difference.

I feel like you literally just defined what marketing is in that sentence as well. Like speaking about them, not about you. Like if anyone was going to take away anything about marketing and what's effective, it's to what you just said there, and I'm— I have to go back to it. You have all these CEOs in a room with insane information. What were the top, like, 2 or 3 problems that kept on coming up with these CEOs in that room? They might be more specific to your industry, but I'm just fascinated.

Yeah, I'll try and make it broader. I mean, to be honest, they did have broad issues that I think CEOs are having. Number 1 that keeps on coming up is the generation divide. You know, how do we deal with this? New generation that's coming through. Um, really interesting solutions that came up for that. The major solution that we took away was impact eats purpose for breakfast. I write about that quite a lot. Gen Z, or the, you know, the new generation, aren't the devil. They're not these like strange entitled beings that have appeared from nowhere. We've grown them, created environments for them to become like they are. They're disruptive, they're entrepreneurial, they're never fulfilled, and they also don't want to work until fucking 10 in the evening to get paid 35 grand a year. Shock horror. So there's, you know, and because the dreams change, right? We're not even them a house, you know. Years ago, if you got told, I only need 35 grand, put away money, you can put your deposit down on the house in about 20 years' time, good deal, that's a good gig, I'll, I'll sign up to that. The, the promise isn't the same because that's not even a reality. So of course they're looking for, you know, side hustles and to work fewer hours and to go away more because The dream isn't to buy a house anymore because it's such a ridiculous dream to them. Yeah, but we, we spoke a lot more about don't ram your purpose down their, their throats. Don't ram the fake dream that they're going to buy this house on this average salary that you're offering them. Tell them how everything they do every single day is contributing to a thing that is bigger than them, and remind them every day what that thing is, as often as you can, that they're little grains of sand that they're putting on this, like a little ant, you know, is building a huge sandcastle or is building a, you know, a thing that they might not be able to see right now because their head's against the, or the nose is against the canvas, but remind them and zoom out for them and show them what they're contributing their time for or to. So that was one big thing that came out a lot of the time is that people want to know about the impact of what they're doing. And by the way, it hasn't always got to be worthy. It's not got to be we're planting 130 trees every time we get a deal in or whatever. It like, because that's easy and we're giving 1% of our, you know, earnings away to some charity, you know, it, that's great and that's lovely if that's the thing, but in a way it does, they're like, great, I don't care, like that's wonderful for those people, but it sounds like an accounting thing that you've done there. It doesn't sound like I'm actually contributing with my work that I'm doing every day to that charity. If it was, I'd go work for the charity. So people want to know what they're doing and it can be stupid shit. It can be like, you're contributing to this thing because we want to go take everyone to Marrakech and get everyone leathered. I don't know. Like, and I think that's where we get a little bit confused. Those recruitment incentive trips were, they worked. The purpose behind them was because it was getting people to work together to realize a goal. The goal could have been anything. It just worked because people knew that the thing that they were doing was contributing to a thing that was bigger than them. So that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the CEO. Sorry, that was one thing.

No, it's all good. Really fascinating. Something I know very little about. And anything else that came up? It's okay if there's not, Ollie, but is there anything that—

The money thing came up a lot, you know, and I think that's kind of wrapped up in what I just told you then. Yeah, that definitely. It feels like that's a problem that's happening. Like, how can we pay these people more money for working less? Like, there is a thing— there's a structural— I don't know how long it's going to take. I don't know if it's going to be a 5-year, 10-year thing, but there is so much access to information around financials and how businesses are set up, and I think that people are getting smarter or at least disgruntled with this scaled thing that's happening. And they're going, if you're scaling me and if you're leveraging me, pay me and give me autonomy to do my job. Don't leverage me, pay me, and then tell me what to do at the same time. Um, I, I, there's a— I say that and then at the same time there is such a lack of clarity for these people going like, what do you actually want me to do? Am I in the office 3 days a week? Is it hybrid? Do I have to send these emails? Like, so there's this tension happening of some people just want to be told what to do and others want to be trusted to get on with their job. And I think the reason why that's happened is nobody's picked a lane. Post-COVID, we kind of came out and went, yeah, mental health matters, everything matters, fitness matters, work from home, don't come into the office, bam, bam, bam, bam. And these people are going, what do you want from me? So I think that comes up a lot actually is like, how do I now redesign my business based on what it was before COVID what it became during COVID what it is now after COVID and what I want it to be. I think the businesses and the companies that are going to win are the ones that are going to come out and say, this shit isn't acceptable in our business. This is what we stand for. Really sorry if you don't like that, don't be here. That's fine. There are loads of humans in this world that we can hire and there are loads of businesses that you can work for. This just isn't one of them. And I think when people get comfortable with saying that stuff more often, we're going to have a less confused workplace.

Really fascinating. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Sorry.

No, no, no, no, mate.

It was good. I love it. A lot to unpack. So it's— I think you said that really well. Um, I feel like that ties just what you said earlier about picking a lane. I remember, I remember seeing your content, like, if you don't stand— if you stand for everything, you stand for nothing. And I feel like that kind of ties into it, and that, that kind of ties back into marketing as well and branding. Like, if you're trying to appeal to everyone, you end up getting no one. And that's kind of what came up in my head, that you actually need to pick a lane. You need to pick your audience. I need to know who you're attracting. And I'm guessing that kind of ties into what you were saying, that if they were more certain on that, they would probably find it easier to attract the people they want and build a better culture as well.

To be honest, it's also who you don't want.

Like, yeah, we did this.

I talked about it on, on his podcast, but we did this exercise where it was like, okay, what is unacceptable behavior here? And, and therefore who shouldn't work here? And the same thing applies to your marketing, like Who is this not for? And the quicker you can discount that stuff, the better. I love, I love this process where you pick a value over something else. It's brutal. It's like value deprioritization, right? So you go, the worst thing about values workshops is you get everyone into a room and they go, all right, what do we care about? And everyone goes, integrity. That's important. Collaboration. Yeah, that's important. Okay. Compassion. You end up with this fucking list of 150 values where you're like, oh God, which ones, ones we want to pick? And then you pick the ones that probably cover the most, like accountability and integrity and compassion and courage. You pick these things out that seem like, okay, we've gone into a room, we've played word bingo, and I think we've picked the right ones. Where it gets— that's half the work. Where it gets really interesting is when you go, okay, You've got 5 here. Is compassion more important than accountability to your business? No. Why? Well, because if somebody— I can't feel sorry for you if you're not getting your job done, you know, and suddenly you're like, ah, okay, so is compassion one of our key values? It's not. And we—

we—

sounds really fucked up. We've taken compassion out of our values because, to be honest, if you're not getting your job done unless something horrific has happened to you that has stopped you from doing that, I am going to struggle to be compassionate for you because this isn't the culture where we go, no, never mind, try next time. It just can't be. We're only a 13-person business, so I need to know if we're all rowing, you're rowing behind me. If you're not, I don't care, I chuck you out the boat. Get out my boat, you know, because it's heavy on me. I'm, you know, the values thing is really, really important, and it's this over that. It's not this and, and, and, and, and. You have to pick something over the other thing. Um, and I use accountability and compassion as an example just because that's the one that we picked. But yeah, you— it's, it's a fun game. Yeah, love that.

Really cool. You say— I feel like you said 13. You said we're only a 13, uh, person business. And I felt for a lot of people that are listening on our podcast, that's still, you know, a massive achievement and a lot of people to manage. What would you say— because a lot of the people, a lot of our clients, um, Ollie, are kind of either solo recruiters or small teams of up to 3 to 5. Um, a lot of them want to scale but they don't know how. You know, they would love a 13-person business, and I think that that's maybe something a lot of recruiters, um, dream of having. What are the biggest lessons that you've learned from growing a business to that many people? Like, if there were some standout lessons that you were like, wow, yeah, I didn't know this was going to happen but this was a great lesson. What kind of words of wisdom could you give, do you think?

Yeah, I would say don't chase headcount for sure. And I, I, if those people that would love to have a 13-person business, I would ask why. Um, there's something that I learned which is this thing called a donut number, which I love, and it, it kind of helped me figure out what I wanted Unknown to become. Because if you don't agree in your head some kind of objective, some kind of peak of the mountain, you'll just keep on swelling out, right? It's like Parkinson's law. Got more money in, get another human. And that's just— we're abundant creatures, right? So we just grow. And you see so many companies that have grown beyond where they should be. And a donut number, if you imagine a donut, you've got the inner ring of the donut, which is the optimum size of your business. So it's serving its purpose and its employees and its owner. And everybody is in this little land of daisies and hot cross buns, and everyone gets to go home with lots of money and they're servicing their clients and it's beautiful. Then you've got the outer ring, right? This is where companies like Nike and Facebook exist, where it's like we pushed and grew and scaled and scaled and scaled. And now we're at this thing where it's eating ourselves. It's, it's delivering worse on what it set out to do. We're playing a stock market game and we're doing this to survive. So we can keep this thing big and meaty and in a way unsuccessful in, in its original purpose. I never wanted to grow to one of those businesses. So I think when I— when you say that thing around people that want to grow, why do they want to grow a company with that amount of headcount? Um, for us, I look at the market and I let the market tell me what I'm— what I should be doing. I also look at what I want. You know, I want everybody in my company to be earning over 200 grand a year. I've always dreamt of doing that. Like, can I build a recruitment company where It's small, powerful, well-branded. We have business coming to us. I get paid well, and everyone that works for me gets paid really well. They get Soho House memberships, they get ClassPass, they get therapists, they get, you know, you know, roofs upon their fucking whatever, pool, all that stuff, right? Um, they get good lives and they get paid really well. That— and without making me sound like I'm fucking Bob Geldof, right? I I just, that, that would be me happy. I, I'm aware of what I like. I'm aware of what makes me feel like I'm doing a good job. And if I know that I'm lining the pockets of people that deserve to win, I feel like I've done a really good job in that. And I made that joke earlier about that CEO, you know, the one that's growing this company infinitely because, don't know, rocket ship emoji, right? That person probably has some deep trauma they've not looked at. I, I, yeah, there is some point they are trying to prove, which is why they are on this huge journey to yield X amount of money. And that's fine. That's not necessarily a bad thing. They might want to go and build, um, a million mud huts in Africa. That might be their thing because they can feed more people with a full bucket, or they might not. And that's the thing I think you have to analyze is what is— do the maths on that growth. And the thing I realized, you know, this time last year we were 17 people. We did our worst ever quarter with 17 people. And I— some of those things are macro. Most of those things are attitudinal. Most of those things are because we had swollen to a point of bloated overweightedness. And that meant a dilution of our business. And that then meant upset clients. And that then meant we weren't paying people what I wanted to be paying people. So like, growth in, in headcount is dangerous. Growth in profit is smart. And the one thing I have learned, which I didn't fucking know, and this is crazy, I didn't even know the importance of profit. I thought it's fine. I actually wanted to get less profit so I had to pay less in tax, right? So I would be like, yeah, just bring them in. Like, I will pay those fees. Well, hire those humans because I don't want to make any profit, right? And that— if I could go back, I would have, I would have taught myself what I know now about profit and what that means for the rest of the business.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I feel like a lot of recruitment companies probably have a similar mentality towards profit. If you, uh— and not that I know intricately profit margins, but I think just business in general, I think there's this idea that revenue is like the— is the— is the cool figure that you can mention in the pub that makes you feel really good about yourself. And it does, it's a massive achievement. But you're right, profit— like, if you— if you've got, you know, minimal profit margins and you're just working to live, it doesn't make much sense to me. That kind of is like— unless you're, you know, building something to sell at one point or trying to exit. But yeah, it's really interesting. Um, gonna ask them Ollie, was there one— and I always, I always like understanding this because I feel like there are points in time when, when you're growing your company when there are specific hires that are big game changers. Um, was there any specific hire that you feel made a big— there was a big turning point? There might not be, but, but sometimes there is.

I just posted about it actually. Oh, did you?

Oh, cool.

Yeah, because My company's called Unknown, and I hired the first 3 people of people that I knew. So that when you've hired your, you know, I think any good business trying to start, to be honest, if you hire strangers, unless you're really clear on what the objectives are, it is going to be harder. So I think every company generally will start with people that they know because it's like, I trust you, like, I can crack on and let you do the thing. Um, but the first hire that we made where we didn't know the person which was Molly, um, that was the real moment where we were like, oh, this is a thing, and actually people want to be part of this thing. And it's not just my mates, you know, that I've used to work with telling me that we've built a thing that's really cool. Um, it was a stranger that had been following us for a long time that had got in contact with us to say, can I be part of the gang? So I think—

so cool. So she was following your content, Ollie? Is that right in saying that you were posting and she was following your brand? That's awesome. Another great example to build a brand, right, is you attract people. Sorry, I just interrupted. Go ahead, Ollie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the words working for you. And, you know, so I was obsessive about the website in the early days and obsessive about the proposition and the brand and the philosophy, because if I called it Ollie Scott and Co. or Ollie Scott and Friends, firstly, wanker. Second, it's a bit like calling myself— imagine that, Ollie Scott, CEO of Ollie Scott. But I wanted something that You know, live beyond me is— it sounds grandiose. I mean, like, it did. It was bigger than one person because it was bigger than one person. People want to work for it because they're contributing to a purpose that's bigger than them. So that's why the proposition, the words, the website, the things that we put out into the world, they had to travel up to a purpose because then people want to be part of that purpose. And it's not just some navel-gazing, aren't I the best thing since sliced bread recruitment bollocks, which I think a lot of people, you know, forget. They kind of go out and go, right. And it's like being an independent business is absolutely fine if that's what you want to be. But if you are scaling something that is beyond just yourself, I think it's so important to pick the mission that you're on that you want to pull troops in to achieve with you.

Yeah. And why was Molly such a key hire, just out of interest? Ollie, what was it about her that— was it because she was unknown and it was like a turning point in terms of mindset, or was it something else she did as well? Or—

yeah, she was just right woman, right person, you know, right time. She came in, she worked harder than— she worked at the same pace, she rode the boat at the same speed as everybody else. She was curious, you know. I speak about our three values now, which are curious, countable and grit. She was all of those, all of those three things, right? Gritty. She was working really hard. She wanted to get up to speed. She wanted to know why we did things differently. And yeah, because of the way that we'd positioned the brand, she was— that made her curious about how we were going to make that happen. So yeah, I'd say that's what she did differently to us. And I should probably mention Ellie, who joined as well. You know, we had Ellie very quickly after her. I guess Molly was the proof that we weren't just weird, stinky boys that were doing some strange business. And then Ellie, you know, She followed after. We did pay a rec-to-rec fee for Ellie, uh, which I of course would never regret. It's kind of weird because she feels like one of us. Like, it's so strange to think that she came through another recruiter. But yeah, those, those were the hires that we, you know, we made that were like, right, this is a, this is a thing that people want to be part of. And they come from a place of frustration into this new world that they want to make, you know, better with us.

That's cool. That's wicked. Um, I can't believe how quickly time has flashed by. We've, um, we're coming to the end of the pod, Ollie. One other question that I want, unless Ben has any, but there's one other question that I kind of want to end with. It's a bit more of a broad question, but I think because you've managed to do branding, you've branded yourself so well, you've managed to differentiate yourself, um, you might have already mentioned a bit about this, but for recruiters listening in that want to start with branding themselves effectively and differentiating themselves where do they start, do you think? Is it going back to what you said before, which is about looking at yourself and your unique experiences? Like, what's, what's the starting point, step one, do you think?

Yeah, good question, because it is so nervy. Like, it's a journey, that, right? You're not gonna— don't start with the name. I mean, I start— stay with— start with the, you know, the mission, the, the kind of who you angry at. I always speak about and how I wrote this breakup letter to creative recruitment. Dear creative recruitment, I'm breaking up with you because— and then you list all the things that you hate about the current market that services your clients. So you want to get angry, you want to get, you know, passionate about what it is that differentiates you, and then you build a brand around that. It hasn't always got to be anger. It can be hopeful and joyful, but I just think to get into a place of of differentiation and distinctiveness, the easiest way is to access the thing that almost disgusts you and frustrates you about the world. And that's why breakup letters are a smart, smart way of kind of framing that, because when you're breaking up with somebody, you know, that you're emotional and, um, it's, yeah, it's a funny, it's a really funny way of doing something. But for me, it really helped me get into this place of positioning the brand. Um, because then from that breakup letter you have 5 key things that we are not. You know, we are not these things, and therefore we are these things. I— for me, I always think start with the inverse before you start with the thing. Yeah, if you start with the thing, there are infinite things. Um, so just go to the opposite. Whatever you're thinking, think the opposite of that thing, and then get really, you know, passionate about that stuff. And that will hopefully, hopefully help you arrive at something. I love weird shit smashed together as well. I don't think enough brands do this where they put two words together that never existed together before, ever, right? If you look at, um, uh, okay, if I said to you guys there's a book that's coming out, right, and it's all about, um, how you can design yourself to make better habits around choices, and you know, you're going to break good habits, break bad habits and start good habits, and it's going to be called breaking and starting good habits, you'd be like, fucking hell, that sounds, that sounds really boring. And if I say, okay, cool, I've got a thing, it's called Atomic Habits, right? You're like, whoa, what? Atomic? That's, that's like how bombs are made and habits. I get that. I've never seen those words put together before. I'm intrigued. And I think that's where great brands happen because you smash together two things that never existed together, but it makes so much sense when you do put them together.

Really interesting. Yeah. Great point.

Yeah. I'm starting a talk thing at the moment. Again, the talks, I want to get 10 times 10-minute talks. That was the only idea I had in my head because I want to start more events because people want to be at more events now. They want to learn new shit. That's not enough of a proposition. So I was like, what are the talks like at the moment? I guess they ramble on. They're not always relevant. You know, it's telling you shit that you already know. Has no emotion in them. So I started writing these things down. Then I thought, what question can I ask a talk, a person that's doing a talk to unlock a really interesting answer? And I thought, okay, what's the dumbest thing that you've done that ended up being smart? I was like, oh, dumbest thing. And I thought, oh, dumb smart. Those two words never existed together. I think we're gonna call the talk Dumb Smart. And it's just about 10 people that stand up on stage and they go, 'All right, the dumbest thing I ever did that ended up being smart was—' But, and then you're in, you know.

Yeah, so good. Love that. Love that, mate. Um, I, I was gonna end it, but I have to ask this question after what you just said. What were some of the things that really pissed you off that helped with your branding? You know what, you know, your breakup letter, what were a few things that you said that really pissed you off? I just— I'm so curious.

Um, oh my God, I used to, I used to write all these things, but I've got to be careful what I say now because some of the stuff We do. One of them I used to say like, the creative, I'm breaking up with you. And to be honest, I would speak about a specific office that I'd been in before and I'd be like, you know, you're all about fucking cooked salmon at 11 in the morning that I didn't want to smell. People arguing around whether we should play KISS 100 or someone's dubstep remix. You're giving me nebulous KPIs that I don't need. And then we get into the commercial element of what we were doing. It was, you know, about the industry. It was more about like, You're not imaginative with who you send. You send me people that I already fucking know for the jobs. That's headhunter tax. What is that? Why, why am I paying you a recruitment fee for sending me Joe, Jimmy, and Daisy that I already knew? That's not imaginative. It's, it's, it's, it's dull. And so I would get passionate about, um, unoriginality, and I'd get passionate about the recruitment companies being quite stagnant places to work where people would cook you know, spinach or salmon because they're on some bodybuilding diet that you're not fucking part of, but your nose now is the same stinking mess as that. And it's funny because I'm about to go and sign the lease on a new office that we've just got, but there's no microwave.

Wicked, man. Um, Ollie, it was such a pleasure to meet you and speak to you, mate. Honestly, I feel like this was a really genuine, open, and just lovely conversation. So thank you for coming, mate, and honestly, it was lovely to speak to you and lovely to meet you. Thank you so much.

It's been a great joy to do. I've only ever done like 2 of these podcasts where I'm the one that's being asked the questions. I way prefer it.

So thank you. You're natural, mate. You're natural. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love. Mm.