Meet the Recruiter who solved Marketing (Steve Guest Interview)

This is Steve Guest, the author of the highest-reviewed recruitment book on the planet.

I suppose a reputation and a personal brand, it has probably elevated me to all manner of levels, intangible.

He sold 24,000 copies across 72 different countries, and it's not slowing down.

It still sells probably 250 to 300 copies every month.

It started off as something just to hand out to his clients, but it turned into something bigger than he could ever imagine.

I go to recruitment fairs and recruitment network meetings All the time you will get people turning up and talking to you as if they've known you forever.

But it wasn't an easy ride. Steve put his blood, sweat, and tears into this book, and he had many moments of doubt along the way.

I just thought, is this really worth it? What's the point? Is anyone really going to be interested in my story or actually pay money to listen to what I've got to say?

Today you will learn how creating a value-based lead magnet could transform your brand and reputation. Why stories are so powerful at creating a deeper connection, and how Steve went about creating and marketing his best-selling book that sold thousands and thousands of copies. So grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's jump into it, shall we? Hey Steve, how you doing?

Morning. Yeah, I'm good. As I say, other than the physical pains of getting back into hockey, I'm, I'm all good, ready to go.

Awesome, mate. Thank you for coming to the pod today. Ben and I have been— have known and have known of you for many, many years, and we've even bought your book and done a post about it. So, uh, we love what you've done. Uh, your book's amazing. I know you've got many other books as well, and you're, you're obviously a big name in the recruitment world. So we want to— we can't wait to, to dig in and explore a bit, a bit more about what you do and how you did it. So thanks for coming, mate.

A pleasure. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you for the, for the intro and buying the book.

Pleasure, mate. So we always start off the pod with the same question: what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or piece of software? What do you think, Steve?

I think for me there's two, there's two answers to that, and they're kind of together. Mindset, definitely 100%. It's, it's about resilience and trying to keep that growth mindset, positivity kind of outlook. But for me, I've made a whole career out of just process, procedure, and, and managing your time to a degree where you can get everything done. And recruitment's littered with that kind of chase the shiny penny and not doing things or being distracted and going in one direction to then go the next. So I think process for me, um, certainly got me to where I am.

Awesome. I remember speaking to you before that you are almost OCD with your processes, systems, and I think that's amazing. I think the more people I meet, they're obsessed with process and systems can usually get more done in less time.

Um, so it definitely brings good and bad, bad points to it. I think sometimes it's good to be able to have a little bit of spontaneity. Um, I really struggle with that. Yeah, is it because I like the process too much?

I'm sure there's more benefits though, Steve. I just, I can see so many more benefits than negatives.

Yeah.

Can you, can you give us an idea of like the difference between your processes and systems and prioritization compared to maybe the average recruiter? you know, people that maybe need to sort that out? What, what are you doing differently during your day-to-day that is allowing you to do so much more in less time, do you think?

Um, I'm not sure it's anything specifically different to anyone else, but I, I have a plan. I have clear focus. I know, I know what's happening each day of any day every week. And despite what distractions might come in, unless it's a something that is a game changer or something you can move quickly to be able to react to it. I follow a plan and I set the expectations for anyone involved with that so they know where we are in the process. I think in my experience of managing and mentoring recruiters, because we like the cut and thrust, that kind of, that often quite the fun bit of recruitment, the fact that you can move a little bit quickly or you can spot something that's maybe a bigger fee or a bigger client or the best candidate But quite often the distractions are there all the time. And I think over the years of recruitment and in my experience, you tend to just take everything on a level, and if it's not in the plan, then generally it doesn't get looked at until it is.

Great answer, mate. That's really interesting. Um, I'd love to dive straight into your book. Now, you've arguably created one of the most successful lead magnets that any recruiter has ever done, because Top Biller is now the highest-reviewed recruitment book on the planet. It sold 24,000 copies across 72 countries. When you told me those stats, I was like, bloody hell, that's insane. Um, can you tell us a bit about why you decided to start writing the book in the first place, Steve?

That's right. Um, to be honest, it's not even recruitment related. Um, Back in, I don't know when it was now, 2015, 2016, I was starting to get interested and involved with property investment and looking to build assets that generate an income other than the recruitment day-to-day job. So I was starting to go to seminars and events and get myself educated within property, and I was surrounding myself with high net worth individuals, really big names with lots of wealth and success behind them. And a lot of the, the meetings and seminars, people I was talking to were all saying, you need to get a book, you need to have a book behind you, everybody's got a book, you should be writing things down, it creates that kind of online asset, it's another revenue stream. And it kind of got me thinking, and my first thought process was, well, why don't I just document my property journey from kind of beginner to thinking about all the hurdles and starting to write about that? And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, well, I haven't actually done anything yet. Are people really going to be interested in my property journey when I've done nothing? So it just, I suppose it got me thinking in terms of, well, what have I done? What could I write about? And many people know, if they've listened to anything I've done, will know that I was always told at the start of my journey I would never make it as a recruiter. Didn't have the right personality, didn't have the right character traits, wasn't confident enough, salesy enough, just lacked the, I suppose, the traits of what a successful recruiter was meant to have. And I'd spent years as a, as a buyer, as a qualified buyer, and spent years being let down by salespeople. So I kind of knew, even with perhaps a different character trait, with a different outlook, I could bring something that was new to recruitment. And by 2016, I'm, what, 10 years into recruitment? So I'd already proved a lot of the doubters wrong. I'd been successful. I'd been a top biller. I'd been top regional biller. I'd set up and opened new offices and regions. So I thought, well, why not write a book that perhaps empowers the person that doesn't quite fit into the industry, maybe that quiet, unassuming recruiter that sits at the back of the office thinking, I don't want to high-five anyone, I don't want to ring any gongs or be the loudest person. Actually, I just want to get on and do a good job and successes from kind of diligently working away in the background. So really, the book came out of being around people that said, write a book. The thought process of thinking, well, where can I add value? What can I do? What, what do I bring that's perhaps slightly different? And then my other thought was, I'd, at the time, been with the company that I was with for, what was it, about 8 years. And my initial thought process was just to write a book so that it would be something to give out to clients and candidates. You can add it to your, like, merchandise pack, and it's just an added extra. And I was starting to have the thought process about going it alone as well. In the back of my head, I was thinking, well, it could just be something that builds that personal brand and that ability to become the recruiter that wrote a book. Um, I think back to when I started, well, first had the idea, I think there's probably only about 5 or 6 books on Amazon anyway that were recruitment-led.

Yeah.

And the vast majority of those were textbooks, and it was really heavy reading. It wasn't really something that you'd pick up on a Friday or Saturday night and think, oh, I'm just going to get through a chapter, because it was hard work. It was heavy stuff. Yeah, I think I've read a few of those. Sorry, say that again.

No, I think I've read a few of those, the kind of heavy textbook kind of recruitment books.

Just a bit heavy. And I think I thought, well, if I'm, if I'm going to write a book, then it's got to be something that people will genuinely feel interested in and they can learn and take a bit of value, but actually appreciate the story and the journey that goes with it.

It's so interesting, Steve, because what you did was not only gave value but tied your story into it and made it engaging. And even though that sounds simple, you put a lot more thought into your lead magnet. I love calling the book a lead magnet because that's technically what it was. But you tied your story, you made it engaging, and you gave value. So I think that's just a really big point to mention of how you may— probably an element of why your book was so successful as well, because you tied those elements in as well.

Steve, do you have any— oh, sorry, mate.

It's really important, isn't it? And I think, I think because of a lot of, a lot of the property seminars that I'd been on, there was lots of selling and upselling. So it was, it was that kind of, if you're interested in this course, go to the back of the room and you'll get that 997 discount, plus you'll get I don't know, free webinar access or something. And there was always a story that went with the pitch. I'm not saying that was part and parcel of the book itself, but I think the stories grab people, they grab your network, they grab interested parties around you because they want to know the story. But actually, if they can find similarities between their own journey and perhaps the struggles or hurdles that I faced or the wins even that I went through, actually people can start to implement stuff and you're more likely to remember story than a theoretical process that's described textbook style.

Reminds me of when me and Sam wanted to get into property as well. We put that on the back burner for now, but we went to a Samuel Leeds event.

Yeah, I've been to Samuel Leeds.

And we were like, we went in there and we're like, we're not going to invest. Like, because we used to film these events, Steve, many, many years ago. So we knew exactly what they were going to do. We knew their strategies, their tactics, at what point they were gonna sell. We knew all of it. But somehow Samuel Lee still managed to sell us into it because of the stories he told. He was incredible. Like the way he pulled in the audience was just, you know, brilliant.

He's a great salesman.

He's brilliant. He's so— and he's really just likable as well. He's a nice person. Some of the stories were hilarious. But I do rate Samuel Lee. I think he's He's a really interesting person in the property.

He's a good character.

Yeah. Have you had any feedback, Steve, as to what area of the book people have found most valuable?

Do you know what? I think the best feedback I have— I never air on social media, I never share the posts, and obviously it's got lots of reviews. So you can go onto Amazon, you can read— I don't know what it is now, 420-odd reviews from around the world, which is amazing. But the feedback that I really enjoy the most is where I get a private or DM on LinkedIn that says that I've really changed the way that they see themselves in recruitment, if nothing else. Or they'd got lost, or they were in a rut, or they were feeling that they weren't coping particularly well, and actually the book's given them motivation or empowered them by whatever kind of individual chapter or story they've read. On the basis that it's okay to just be yourself in recruitment and don't feel like you have to follow the normal sales pattern of promising the earth and underdelivering. Actually just being genuinely honest and doing things with integrity, in my experience, will get you far further than trying to overly sell something that you're not even confident in yourself you can deliver on. And so I wouldn't say there's one particular area of the book that particularly gets fed back. But I think it's the messages people don't see for the quieter, perhaps, individual that you just feel like you've made a difference. And they feel motivated to go into work on a Monday because they've read the book and it's had some sort of impact on them.

Yeah, well, that for me has always been the best result of a book. Is a, you know, a mindset shift. Because I think these books, I mean, you can definitely implement these strategies, but I think the most powerful books I've ever read have done exactly that. They've shifted my belief system in some way or my mindset to act in a different way or take action in a different area of my life. So that's amazing, the fact that you're having that impact on people.

You know, I read a lot and I read a lot of books on, on wealth and money and success. And, and it can be from different sectors, whether it's recruitment or property or, um, just things like NLP or specific, um, ways to improve your thinking and your positive mindset. But they all have that common thread. It's that ability to be resilient and to spot opportunities when actually you feel like everything's a hurdle. And you have to train yourself. And I think over the years my mindset has definitely changed. And I've mentioned this on, on other podcasts and my own podcast and YouTube before, if you want to see problems, you'll always see the problems. If you want to see the opportunities, you will find them. And I think in recruitment, the more opportunistic you can be and the more confident and positive you can be, actually, you start to see things where you can make differences every single day, even when the market's tough.

Such a good point, Sam. I haven't shared this with you yet, but I thought it was a perfect opportunity. And you, Steve, I'm doing Joe Dispenza every morning for 15 minutes just thinking about the future. And I, in the last 2 weeks, I felt so much more positive than I, you know, it's unbelievable. And I feel like people who spot problems have trained themselves to spot problems, and people who spot opportunities have just trained themselves as well. So yeah, just going through it myself, it's, you know, it's really fascinating.

It makes a massive difference. I started to train myself, this is years ago. I was always a person that if you said, how are you, I would always say not bad. Not bad. So what you're hoping for, what you expect is bad. And just to simply kind of change the way you speak and you say, yeah, I feel really good, or I feel energized, or I'm motivated, even if you don't quite feel like that, the fact that you're saying stuff that starts to put your shoulders back and you puff your chest out and you start to feel a little bit more livelier, it really works. And it's made a huge impact, that kind of small shift. That, that allows you to just be, be positive.

Definitely. I'm so glad you tell me that, Ben. That's awesome about the meditation. I've been trying to get Ben onto that for a while, Steve, and he's doing it. That's awesome. Um, I'd love to dive into the marketing behind the book, I see, because I feel like, you know, your book was so successful. I think there's, there's lessons to be learned in how you, how you did the marketing for that, because I'm sure that played a huge part in the success of the book. Can you tell us a few of the ways that you managed to market the book and maybe the most successful areas that you saw while doing it?

You know what, I don't know whether the marketing was done by accident or whether I should say it was highly skilled and thought out. Because when Top Biller was published, obviously first book, one of the things that helped, and I've done the same process with each of the books, was to get the network bought into what you were doing. So I would share little bits of the journey and whether that's down to writer's block or finishing the next chapter or doing the final edit before put through to publication. Every single book I've published, the network has chosen the front cover. I say chosen, it's on the basis that I will get a really good contact of mine to design maybe 10, 12 versions and then the network will vote. That will get down to 5 versions and then down to 2 or 3. But ultimately the book covers have always been chosen by the network regardless of the ones that I might prefer. And my viewpoint behind that was, well, if the larger network chooses a particular cover, hopefully that means when it's on a bookshelf or in front of you, a higher majority will buy the book. Because they like the COVID That was the initial thinking. So, um, I think I gave away the month planner in Top Biller towards the end. Um, my initial thought for doing that was just to give value because I know it's been useful in my journey. It's helped consultants that I've managed and, and kind of mentored. I just wanted to offer value. But what that actually did was, because you had to ask me for the planner. Anybody that read the book that got to page— I don't know what it is, 170-odd— they would message, email, or DM and say, just reading your book, could you send me a copy of your month planner? And I would say, yes, um, would you mind putting a post out on social media and leaving a review on Amazon? Um, that comes with both good and bad points. The good Obviously you're allowing organic marketing from people that are reading your book because in exchange for a month planner, you're hoping that they will do a little bit of marketing to their network for you. The bad parts to that is 24,000 copies and all individually responded that have asked for a month planner is a lot of emails and a lot of messages that I've done myself and everyone has a unique and personal response.

Hmm.

That's a lot of moments in 24 hours every day where you're getting looks from your other half at home saying, will you get off that bloody phone? And I'm sending a message saying, yeah, I'll get the month planner to you on Monday morning. Thanks for reading the book. Would you put a post out? So it takes seriously hard work and it's taken a lot of time over a long period of time, which is what's now coming up to 4 years published. And I'm still responding with month planners. Which is great and fine, and I've got no issues with that. I think COVID, as much as COVID brought lots of down points and wasn't a great time, I think the book, the book was published November 2019, and COVID was what, March, April 2020, and you had maybe 3 or 4 months of lockdown. Lots of recruiters on furlough sat at home not knowing what to do. And I think a lot has to be put down to the fact that recruiters needed something to keep their brain working and ticking along while sat at home not being able to work. So I think that really helped. I think it meant lots more recruiters were online and were kind of going through their timelines, and it was very visible Well, the top biller book was very visible throughout all of those months because there was a lot more people asking for planners. There was a lot more messages from me. There was my own marketing because construction recruitment had probably died down and was near non-existent at one point. So the marketing of the book and all the other added bits around it was relatively easy to do.

Interesting.

So yeah, I would say those are probably the the top 3 key areas in terms of how it marketed. I did try paid ad sales, but they just never got to anywhere close to what the organic marketing stuff was doing.

Yeah, interesting. I feel like from the way— from what you said, it's kind of market research, value, and timing. And it's like, but even 24,000 copies from— in 72 countries from organic marketing, Like, I think that must have been a seriously good book for— I mean, I've read it myself, I love it. So I think it's like value, that's the key, isn't it? It's like if you can provide true value, you know, your name will spread and you'll reach more people and you'll get more business and you'll sell more books or sell more things.

So I think so. I think, I think it solves a number of problems and I think if you ever get something that provides solutions to things, whether it be in the way that you think or the way that you feel about things and it can motivate and uplift, a lot of the feedback I get these days are that recruitment companies buy it for their new starters. So it starts, it becomes part of a starter pack. And I've sold box loads and sent them and delivered them to head office, head office of recruitment agencies so they can pass out to their consultants because the book is really honest and it talks about a proper recruitment process done in the right way. It doesn't cut corners and it's, I suppose, what you'd call old school recruitment from when I was first taught how to be a recruiter. But I do things in a way that always puts the candidate and client first because you get the service right and actually the sales will take care of itself because you've done things properly. And I think that carries a lot of weight because it's not me trying to sell a a book on the basis that I can make a quick buck, because that's not what it's about and it never was. I was always told you go into this not looking to make any money from writing a book.

Absolutely. I think if it was, because I've read lots of books, I'm not going to mention the people that I bought books from, but they just, they do feel like they just, you know, give a little bit of value and then sell to and kind of bigging themselves up for the rest of the book or selling for the rest of the book. And it's like you'll never get anywhere near as much traction as opposed to what you did, Steve, which is focusing on solving problems and giving value. So it's really interesting.

It's all very surreal, if I'm honest.

Why do you say that?

Because it was never expected. As I say, I've shared stories before where I just started on the process of writing the book and I was sat in a seminar and there was probably 70, 80 people in the room and the guy conducting the seminar and said, how many in the room have wrote a book? And about 7 or 8 hands went up. And then he said, and keep your hands up if you've sold more than 50 copies. And all the hands went down.

Oh, wow.

And I was sat there thinking, my God, 50 copies doing all of this. And it's not cheap to publish a book either. I'm gonna spend this to achieve less than 50. And that was probably the first point at the very start where I just thought, is this really worth it? What's the point? Is anyone really going to be interested in my story or actually pay money to listen to what I've got to say? And then I kind of kick yourself up the backside and I just think, well, if I could sell 51 copies, I'm the best person in that room and I could have kept my hand up. So that became the first kind of target. I just thought, I can do 51. I've always been like that in everything I do anyway. You give me a number, and I'll beat it. You give me a target and I'll go one above it. And that can be in the smallest minutest detail that could just be in sales calls in the next hour. I've always had that kind of mentality just to just go one better and it just shows you, you're the best person in the room or perhaps the most highly charged. I don't know what it is, but I just, I suppose it's surreal on the basis that I never expected it to do as well as it's done. Because your expectations are set by other people that were in the room.

I listened to a— this is kind of off track, but based on what you said, Steve, I listened to a— you heard of a guy called Dan DeParni? He's basically a monk turned entrepreneur, and he went— he basically went to live as a monk for like a huge part of his life, and now he's an entrepreneur. But he released a really, really good course that I listened to, and it was about meditation and focus. And one of the lines that he said was always do a little bit more than you think you can. And that kind of reminded me of what you said, which is like, always do a little bit more. If you think you can do that, do a little bit more, and you just train your brain to like just go that one step further. Yeah, it's just amazing, just like these little habits of doing a little bit more. It's amazing how much that builds over time.

It's that 1% incremental compound effect.

Absolutely.

I used to say when, when I had a team at the last place I worked We used to get set our targets for the year and then they'd be broken down into monthly revenue sales targets. And my view was you always doubled them, always double them because if you aim for what's doubled and you fall slightly short, you will have smashed the original target. If you aim for the original target and fall slightly short, quite often you'll say, well, I was nearly there. I got $8K out of $10K. So I've had a good month because I was almost there. If you get 8K out of 20, you're not even 50% of the way there, so that's not good. And, and it's that mindset shift of, oh, aim for overachievement, and even if you fall short, you should have still passed what was the expectation.

Yeah, really good advice.

Absolutely love that. What I would love to get into a bit more, Steve, is the process of how you went about creating the book. Because I'm sure there are plenty of other recruiters out there that are like, I want to create something of value, I want to create a similar lead magnet that's, that's more personalized to me and my audience, but I don't know where to start, I don't know what the hell to do. So for someone that's already done it, provided a brilliant book that a lot of recruiters love and successfully marketed it, um, can you talk us through how you created the book? Like, what was the process? Did you think of it all first, write it all down? What did you decide what was going in the book? Can you just tell us a bit about that, please?

Um, I think the first, first probably 6 to 8 months, I just got things down on paper. So if I faced problems or questions from either candidates, clients, or the staff that I was, was looking after or managing, I'd find the problem, the question, the scenario, and I would write a little bit about it. And I think I got up to about 24,000-25,000 words. Over a 6-month period. That got me towards the summer, and within construction recruitment, summers generally are the busiest period. So I stopped writing, concentrated on still placing people and making sure the office was doing what it needed to do. I got to Christmas, and I probably hadn't wrote anything for maybe 4 or 5 months. And over the Christmas period, I always sit there and plan for the next year. I've got a spreadsheet full of targets and things, amassing everything around me— family life, extracurricular, holidays, work, personal development, and everything else. And I just decided I need to get this book done. So I met with a couple of self-publishers, or people that specialize in getting your book self-published. I found one that I really liked, and I said, right, this is where I'm at. I was told 38 thousand to 40,000 words is what you would class as a general kind of word count for a book. Um, we agreed a date, I think it was like June 2019, to get the rest written or get up to that word count. Um, and because we'd agreed a deadline and it was in place and I'd paid the first installment to the publisher, I had a deadline. I was accountable to someone. And then what I did between, it was probably from January to May, I would think of a question or think of a scenario or problem or a story that I wanted to share. That would be the question the night before. And then I'd get into the office probably an hour, an hour and a half earlier than the consultant. So I was up at 5, I was in the office for maybe half 5. And then I spend an hour and a half just writing the answer to that question scenario problem. And then what I did over a period of time was all of those questions and subjects, you start to then put into a chapter where it made logical sense. Once I'd done all of that, once I'd got the 38,000, 40,000 words, I found someone who probably first term would be a ghostwriter, second would be someone who just writes and could edit my book into a I suppose a more eloquent style. So we set about on a path where once I'd completed a chapter, we'd sit on a session like this. I'd talk through the chapter. This person was outside of recruitment, so if there was areas that perhaps didn't quite make sense to someone not in the industry, I'd explain a little bit more around it. So the, I suppose the chapters got a little bit embellished, it got a little bit more eloquent in its writing style. My general demeanor is to be quite sarcastic and quite, I suppose, dry-witted, but without seeing the glint in my eye or the wry smile when I say something, which you're not going to get from a book. Some of the ways that I'd wrote it perhaps wouldn't get the humor across.

Interesting.

So we had to look at the way that was written as well. And then I think the book was delayed. Like anything, it takes, I don't know, maybe 10 to 15 read-throughs before getting to a final manuscript, by which time you're so fed up of reading the book and you gloss over the problems or errors. You don't see them because you've wrote or read that sentence previously and you missed the simple grammatical errors. Um, it ultimately then got published, I think it was November 2019. It's hard. It— I think the motivation to keep going and the struggles to keep going, the imposter syndrome that sinks in, um, that kind of going back to your immediate thought of, is anyone actually ever gonna even read this, never mind pay money for it? They appear throughout the whole process. There's those mornings, obviously, starting, getting up at 5 in January after Christmas when you're a little bit lethargic and don't necessarily even want to go back to work, and you've already determined that you're going to be in an hour and a half earlier than anyone else. Can be quite a struggle. It's dark, it's wet, it's cold.

I can imagine.

And you've still got to go in and get it done. So, as we touched on earlier, I think if I build things into the day and it's in the plan, it's in the process, it's committed to, and I stick to it, because if you don't, you tend to find that things will always wait till tomorrow and you'll actually never get around to doing certain bits. I will, you'll quite often find me saying to consultants, if you get to the end of the week and somebody around you has said, I don't have time, or I ran out of time, or I didn't have time to get that done. What I've learned over the years is what that is actually saying is what was being asked of them wasn't high enough on their value. Kind of scale. And if it wasn't high enough on their value scale, that has two problems. It's either their understanding of how valuable that task was, or my understanding of how I've got them to understand that it wasn't that valuable. If that makes sense. So you will always make time to do the things that you hold more valuable regardless of what they are, whether it's work or life or general kind of activity. So you've got to be able to find a place in time to make things happen if you actually just want to get the end result, because otherwise it's not high enough on your value scale. And this was high enough because I'd been made accountable to get it done.

Interesting that I was thinking that, that you mentioned the accountability and you mentioned it twice there. So I'm guessing that was a big reason of why you continued, you know, you, you had an element of accountability. And so you just did it. And that's what I found a lot of— I'm sure you found the same as well, Steve— is if you're a solo business owner or even an MD, or, you know, if you're the owner of the business, you're not really accountable to anyone other than yourself. And that's why I think it can sometimes be difficult, because it is really difficult.

And I think, I think sometimes that's why things like personal branding, social media, and sharing the journey to your network becomes even more valuable. So certainly through lockdown, um, and probably a year or two before COVID maybe 2017-ish for me, I started on a path where I was trying to put myself out there. It does not come naturally to do all the social media stuff I do. If I was— if I'd made it and I was on, on my yacht in the Bahamas and money wasn't an issue and I didn't have certain goals to go and achieve, I would stop it. If I, if I was there, I would stop it. I do it on the basis that the big picture for me, the big goals, are far more than me embarrassing myself on social media or doing something that people either try and bring you down or troll you or do whatever. And I think putting accountability onto social media as a post or doing whatever you need to do. Um, as a business owner, if you work on your own, if you need your network to hold you to some accountability, then you've just got to put it out there. One of the biggest lessons and accountability things that happened to me was probably— I can't remember the date now, maybe 2016. So I just got to a point where I knew I needed to share a social media video. Again, surrounding myself with people within the property industry. Everyone was saying, you need to tell everyone what you do, share your story, put yourself out there. You need to be going live. You need to be saying, I'm looking for investors. I'm looking to buy buy-to-lets in the Birmingham area, or whatever it might be. And I would, when they said you need to go and put these videos out, I would just go and find something to do. I'd go to the toilet, go and find, go and make an extra coffee, go back to the car and pick up a pen. I'd just find something which meant I didn't need to do it. And I was driving down to our head office in Watford one morning. It was quite early. I was listening to Gary Vaynerchuk, um, Crush It, and he was saying if you're one of these people that gets in your own way, you just need to basically get over it and just make it happen. So I got out of the car in the car park and I recorded my first video, which lasted about 30 seconds, and it said something like, there's no value to this, this is me getting over a personal hurdle. Just putting myself out there. Let me know what you think in the comments below. Something like that. But I did it. I actually looked like a proper hobo as well. I need a good shave. 7 in the morning, I got it out. And then somebody commented on my post saying, great video, well done for doing your first. Now you need to do 10 videos in 10 days. And I'd said, yes, okay, I'll get it done. And then the moment I put that, I thought, The hell am I going to do now? 10 videos in 10 days. But I did it. And actually what that did was it made me accountable, but it started me on perhaps a social media personal branding journey that then kind of meant nothing else could probably top that in front of just putting yourself out there and being present every single day to the whole of the network.

Fascinating. Love that, Steve. That's wicked. Um, on that, you just mentioned personal brand. What has Top Billers done for your personal brand, your reputation? Can you just tell us a bit about the impact? Because I think, um, this is the power of good marketing, a good lead magnet, and you put a lot of time and effort into making this really valuable, and therefore it's had a great impact on your business. Can you just tell anyone who's listening the what impact it's had on maybe you personally and your business.

Uh, yeah, top biller has been— I, I mean, in, in real, in realistic terms, obviously it earns royalties, so it generates a revenue each month. It still sells probably 250 to 300 copies every month, like 4 years in, which is amazing.

Very good madness.

So from a, from a sales revenue, it brings an income From a, I suppose, a reputation and a personal brand, it has probably elevated me to all manner of levels that I suppose that it's intangible. But in terms of contact, I get candidates and clients contact me. Some will message in regards to the books, some will message obviously they're looking for roles or looking to recruit. It's definitely worked on the basis that I became the recruiter that wrote book. I give it out when I go and see clients. So it's, it's a bit different in terms of a conversation you can have with people in front of you that isn't just about sales pitches, what jobs have you got, how can I help you, that sort of thing. It's allowed me to build and create an online training program that has now been going for 3 years. That was born again out of COVID but off the back of I suppose because people had read the book and they were bought into my story and how I work and how I recruit, that people want to be the same or work the same because it, I suppose, epitomizes the ability to have process and procedure and have a plan in place and do things, um, with a degree of priority and time management. Lots of recruiters, just by their very force of nature, struggle with that element. So I bring something that a lot of recruiters need. So it's had an impact on the ability to create, again, another revenue stream from a business perspective, but actually create value from a one-to-one basis and help recruiters around the world that struggle with the recruitment process and the ability to put things in place that allow them to bill more and be more effective. I've wrote two further books Second book, whilst it pales into insignificance in terms of numbers, has still sold probably just short of 5,000 copies.

Wow.

Across something like 40-odd countries. Um, the third book, all the profits have been donated to the British Heart Foundation. So it's been able to create another platform where actually I can feel like the journey of writing books now gives me the ability to give back to charity in some ways, which is really, which is really good. It's a really good and nice thing to do. I had a podcast, YouTube channel. My kids asked me if I'm famous in the world of recruitment. My youngest actually asked me why my books weren't in the school library the other week. And I think it's just, you go to networking events, I go to recruitment fairs and recruitment network meetings, and all the time you will get people turning up and talking to you as if they've known you forever. And I have to kind of politely just ask if they'd tell me who they were, because I actually don't know them, which is nice in a way. It's nice that people feel like they can come up and say hello. Because they've read the book or it's had an impact on them.

Um, it's quite surreal, like just random people coming up to you that feel like they probably know you just from reading a book. That's quite amazing.

Yeah, I know. So I get lots of kind of familiar messages where people are on a similar path or they've been told similar things or they've had similar scenarios and they feel like they've got somewhere they can go to that is perhaps either outside of their current family, friend circle, or work colleagues. Or it might be the fact that they work on their own and they need that support. I, I've always made myself an approachable person. I respond to absolutely everybody because I'm a genuinely nice person. I want to add value. I want people to go away knowing that they've had a positive experience talking to me, or they've taken the time to message me, then I should take the time to message back. I'm truly grateful for the network and the people around me that have supported the journey, because without any of that, none of it would have happened anyway. So yeah, I mean, most of it is intangible, but the ability to be able to sell something different to what job requirements do you have, and I've got this candidate, actually gives you a little bit of a breather from your normal everyday recruitment life, and it does differentiate you from the market, which was the big reason for doing it in the first place.

Yeah, I feel like a lot of personal branding is intangible, but obviously indirectly you can get a lot of business, win a lot of clients and candidates. And yeah, it's that— it's a weird scenario because you know it's powerful, and but a lot of it is intangible.

Um, you only know it's powerful if you do it.

Yeah, and it takes so— it takes so much effort. Like, your book took months of hard work, the same as, you know, building a brand on LinkedIn. It takes a lot of time and effort, but once you experience it, you're like, wow, this is cool, I want to keep doing more of this.

Yeah, I'd say 70-75% of my placements last year were from marketing on LinkedIn without directly messaging people.

Wow, that's nuts.

Impressive.

And that, I mean, that gets to a level where I don't measure it to any kind of minute detail, but I know when I put a post out, I get messages coming to me about, you must be the go-to person, you seem busy, you seem to have lots of roles on, I'm looking for this, I'm looking for that, I'm a client, we've heard a lot about you, actually came up in our meeting the other day, could you help us find such and such? They're all the bits that people don't see. Being a recruitment consultant and building a personal brand, most things happen behind the messages and the notes underneath the post that you've added. And I think because that's the way it works, people that don't do it don't see the immediate need to start putting posts out because the notes aren't below it. You don't get clients and candidates putting underneath your post, I'm looking for work or I need to fill this role. Because it will be a whole swarm of recruiters at them and they know it. Um, I love it. I think I've just got into the habit of I try and put 1 or 2 posts out a day. I try and split it so that it's 7 business, 2 personal, and 1 trending each week. If I can do that, for me that sort of, um, scenario works and it builds traction and it gets people to look and take note.

Love that, mate.

We've come to the end of the pod, Steve.

I've got just a few more questions.

I know it's gone so quickly.

I did say I could talk.

Sorry. No, it's good. I love it. I love speaking to you, mate. If you could press a button and jump back through a portal and go back through that time when you were creating your, your, your book, what, what would you have done differently? What are the biggest lessons that you can tell someone right now who's like, oh, I really want to create a lead magnet, but I want to maybe avoid some of those problems that Steve ran into. Um, is there any, any biggest lessons that you came away with or things that you would do differently during that time?

You know what, there were so many lessons and we probably touched on them. I think the biggest learning point was to get a date in the diary and stick to it. And kind of, you know, that, that process where you work backwards and you think, well, if I've got to get 38,000 words by that point, How many thousand do I need each month? This is where I'm at. This is what I've got to do. Have a date in place, but have it accountable to someone else, that someone's going to hold you to it. And you've just got to make time for it. So for me, I put everything in my Outlook calendar. If it's not in there, it doesn't get done. And that is a conversation I have with my wife as well. So if we've got date night or events out and it's not in there, it will get missed. It has to go in. Because I plan everything else around it. Um, so plan for it, get a date, and just, just keep going.

Wicked. I say the exact same thing to my missus, by the way, Steve, so I think we're very similar on that one.

It doesn't always go down too well, but yeah, exactly.

Thank you, mate. That's a great way and great moment to end the pod. Thank you so much for coming on. It's a pleasure to meet you, and you are just a lovely bloke, and it was a pleasure to get to know you a bit more. So thank you, mate.

No, thank you for the invite. Thank you.

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