This Founder's Top biller is doing £510K (Here's why the 1% Mindset matters)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is James Lovelbutt. James started off in his bedroom and has grown his recruitment company to 14 people, and now he's surrounded himself with recruiters who are constantly trying to play at the top of their game every single day. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about the the mindset and the habits of his top biller who's currently doing $510K annually, why James is such a big advocate for the top 1% club and how this impacts the culture of his company. And finally, we're going to be delving into James's personal story of how mental health has affected him. And I'm sure business owners and recruiters are really going to relate to this story. So as usual, guys, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. And let's get into it, shall we?

James, thank you so much for joining us today, mate. I'm really excited to jump into this episode.

Thanks for having me. It's, uh, it's, um, spoke for a few weeks or maybe months actually, haven't we? And, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's good to be here on this lovely fine day. And, um, yeah, look, it says the guy that would love to be in Dubai right now. But, um, yeah, it's, um, it's, uh, I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be a good one.

Awesome. Yeah, you've actually been— I feel like I've seen you around here for like years. I feel like we've been in each other's network for years, so I'm just— I'm really glad that we finally managed to speak. And you've got a really interesting story and mentality. Before we go into the juicy bits, I'm just going to ask you the first question that we always ask every single recruiter that comes into the podcast, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Tried thinking away from what everyone else seems to say, and I know you joke about it with the mindset stuff. I think there's so much software that everyone uses. I think there's— that's horses for courses, in my opinion. Um, but yeah, it is mindset. It is, I'm afraid. It's, uh, sorry to all the listeners.

It shows you how popular it is or how important it is.

It's true, isn't it? Like, at the end of the day, we can all use the same tech, we can all use the same software, we can now use various AI tools and bits and bobs, but there's no differentiator there. Like, we're all using the same thing. Yeah. And as long as you're using it to its highest level, then you're not— you using it and me using it, we can't do any better than the way that software works. So for me, it's all about that mindset, just having that I want to be better than everyone. Like, you can go down that route and just being willing to work, not just not just saying it, just actually do it. There's so many people like to talk the talk and not walk the walk as such. But yeah, just do it. End of story. Just do it. Simple. Like Nike style. Just do it. And that is my mentality. I am one of them. I won't sit there and have an idea. I will get on and go and do something about it. And I think a lot of people don't have that mindset. A lot of people are scared to dip their toes in or, or dive in, whereas I'm already doing 4 lengths before you've even put your left foot in. Um, it's like, just, just, just do it. Be better. Why not? You got one chance, one life. Have a go. And yeah, that, that's me. That's my answer, my long-winded answer to the question.

And I think this brings us naturally on to the second question. Which is you're an advocate for the 1% Mindset Club or Club Mindset.

Yeah.

Can you break down what that means in practical terms and how it's helped you to consistently outperform in recruitment or just in life? Like, what does that mean, the 1% Mindset Club, and how can other people use it to be better, do you think?

Yeah, I think— and I know we joked about it off air as such about Stephen Bartlett, and we will chuck his name in there. He might even listen, you never know. I feel like he, he's copied me, for anyone that thinks he come up with 1% Club. But, um, I have had to get that in there. But I think for me, if I look back across my life as well, I've always wanted to be the fastest runner and I was at school. I was always the quickest 100 metres. I always wanted to be the best at football. I ended up being a football captain and I had various ways of then to become like the best football player in the school sort of thing and bits and bobs like that. And I think it's just that want to win mentality and that's where the 1% comes in. It's like, right, okay, we've all got a set of legs for running. Who's gonna run faster? We can all play football. Who's gonna be better? We can all recruit, we can all sell. Well, you've got to stand out. End of story. Like, you have to be sharper than someone next to you. You have to be willing to do more, whether that's spending longer in the office or thinking outside the box more. And there's so many people that sort of, I don't wanna say happy with being average. I think average is the wrong term, but I'm not that guy. Like, I want the world. And don't get me wrong, it does have its ups and downs, and we'll go to that later on. But the 1%, it's, it's not even— it's— forget that terminology. All that means is you're just doing better than the guy sitting next to you or in the room with you, and knowing you're just going to outbeat your competition, end of story. It's like we're in a Formula 1 race and, and we've all got the same car. Well, how are you going to win? Like you've just got to do the extra. You've got to be the Michael Schumacher. You've got to fly in the corner and don't brake too early. And yeah, I am obviously really passionate about it, but it's just doing more. Like, it's so simple but so complicated at the same time. And I think that's what happens. I think people overthink that, oh, how can I be better than someone else? Well, Okay, well, just be better than yourself. Like, and I'm the worst. I can sell sand to the Arabs. I can work as hard as anyone. Talk to me about diet and stuff like that. I'm probably the worst man alive. Like, I can't bring that. No one's perfect. And that's what I need to do. I need to be better than I was last year. And Mini Eggs on the shelves of the local supermarket doesn't help me. But you've just got to be, it's just having that, like, you've gotta want it yourself first. That's the main goal. You've gotta be better than yourself. And that's not reading out of a book sort of phrase, but beat yourself and then beat anyone else. And if you look at any form of sport, education, anything in life, all these people that are like at the top of the tree, Ronaldo, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, people like these and recruiters and all the way down to anything. They all just work that little bit harder and that little bit sharper. And, and yeah, it's just 1% club.

I love that, mate.

What, um, I'm— because I'm already like, I already want to go off and do 10 cold calls after speaking to you, James.

You have that energy that's very infectious, and I love it, mate.

Um, where did you develop your— this kind of drive, this mentality? Has it always been with you?

Have you like—

do you remember a time? Like, for me, when my daughter was born was when my that 1% really came into play for me personally. Is there any moment when that really came in for you, or have you always been like that?

Yeah, I think there's been two major stages in my life. I think one was having children. I've got three little boys, um, which is crazy in itself. Um, shout out to the wife for looking after those three. I'm, uh, yeah, again, I, I couldn't do that. Like, it's just not, it's just not for me. But, um, Yeah, there's two stages. One was that, and that sort of level— I was 30 when I had my first little one, and now I'm 38 coming on 39. So that was like the, the second step that gave me that, right, this life's not just about you anymore, James. It's not about you and your pocket and where your feet are going to take you. It's— there's three little boys now who are looking at you like you're the main breadwinner in the house, you're the guide, you're the example. Um, so that was like a turnabout. But the main one, and I, I really do think this is one that really got me looking is I'm a typical— I grew up on a council estate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Before that, single mum at the time. And I always, I sort of always thought, you know, this life in terms of the council estate isn't for me. And that's no, like, some of the best people in the world have come from the council estate. And those days, I wish I could show my kids as well, but I can't because obviously I don't live there anymore. But the biggest turning point for me was I got a scholarship to a private school when I was 11.

Wow.

And they won a year. They only get about one. And it was like, it is a school in Guildford called the Royal Grammar School. It's one of the best private schools in the country.

Wow.

And I, Got the scholarship, went there, and my eyes were like, wow, this is different. Like, the kids were totally different, totally different mindset. Good and bad, don't get me wrong. Some were these spoiled little brats that was like, don't worry, my dad's a flipping multi, multi-millionaire, I'll be all right. And it's like, okay, great, that's not that good. But it gave me that door into what I call the other world, if that makes sense. And even though I was only 11 at the time, obviously I'm not gonna sit there and say at 11 I thought I was gonna be a super entrepreneur. But I think what was happening in my brain was I, my friends, like some of my best friends there, I remember one of them who I still speak to quite regularly now, a guy called Alex. He, I remember going to his house and his house was that big that we could literally shout our heads off in one corner of his games room. And his mum and dad could be in the kitchen and would not even hear us. We, I think we could have used a flipping megaphone, whereas I brought him to my house, bunk bed shared with my brother, took him outside playing football with 20 kids, whereas he had 3 acres of land overlooking the Surrey Hills, tennis court, mini football pitch. He was an only child. And I think I looked at stuff and I was a bit like, yeah, I want a bit of this. This is me. And yeah, I think that was a major turning point. I think I saw the other world. There's a couple of kids there. One kid had bodyguards. His dad owned a massive—

Oh my God.

Alcohol company in Greece, maybe. And I literally saw the flip of what I was living at the time. And I think, I just think that's ingrained in me then. And I can't pinpoint, but when you're asking me, my brain's like, that was that turning point. I saw it. And then I grew up and my, even my best friend's mom, and that was like, you'll be a millionaire one day. And obviously so many millionaires now on paper, but from what, where we lived and what we, what we had and stuff, no one ever even knew what a million pounds was. Do you know what I mean? And it was, and I think where I went and saw this other world and then I, from then on, I went to, unfortunately I only got half a scholarship at another private school due to football injuries, but that's another podcast. Um, we, um, I then went to another school, but I didn't go back to the school where everyone from my area went. I went to another school in Guildford, um, and it just gave me doors to other worlds. Like, I had groups of friends, like a lot of the boys I grew up with, um, they've only got their circle, that circle of friends, because it was such a, like, tight-knit area, whereas I've probably got, like, 5 pools of friends from like school. And then I went and worked in London and, and bits and bobs. They, they very much like lived in that, it was that very villagey environment. So I think, yeah, I think that is the turning point. I think that something happened there. I remember crying my eyes out to my mum and dad separately. We didn't live together, but saying, no, I'm not going. All my friends go to this school. And like crying, like had to get 2 buses there. I literally was devastated when they were like, no, you're going. I was like, no, no, no. And then, yeah, I owe them everything for pushing me because it's the best change in my life that's ever happened. And now, wow. Yeah, I think that with, again, long-winded answer to your question, but I think that is such a massive turning point for me. Seeing the other side of the world, as I called it, realizing that it's not actually that far away to grab. And then going, okay, cool, we'll plant that in his 11 to 13-year-old brain. And then 25 years later, I'm now trying to give my children that life, but keep it in the middle to hope to not let them be a spoiled brat and, and but also not letting them grow up how we did. So it's like, you know yourself, it's, oh, parenting is the hardest one. Like, I can recruit with my eyes shut, but being a parent and knowing what to say and what to do, and God, that's hard work. That's tough.

That's really, um, thank you for sharing the story, man. Really interesting. Um, I'd love to pivot the conversation a little bit and just go to question number 3, because you run— you have about 14 heads, don't you? 14 people that work with you?

Yeah, about that. Yeah, yeah.

And I know that you've got some amazing consultants, but there's one in particular— hopefully we don't give him too much of a big head— there's one in particular, one in particular you said is billing around $500K. Um, I'm sure all of your consultants are equally, you know, they're great people to work with and they're all probably high performers, but I'm guessing there's something that this guy is doing, or girl, doing a little bit differently to everyone else. What do you think that is? If you could observe of everyone, maybe within your company or from other companies, what's this chap doing differently, do you think, that's getting him to that $500K level, which is kind of an, you know, I would say it's an elite, elite performer?

Yeah, I certainly, I certainly have that down as like, that is my bar for elite, and I think that you, you can't chuck that word around lightly. Um, and yeah, as far as I'm concerned, obviously, um, He was the first major move I brought in in the business. And I remember saying to you beforehand, like, he— I had to sell it to him and brought him in. And yeah, I think with him, I think with his sales technique and why I believe he does hit these massive numbers is just pure and utter resilience, like graft mentality. He's— I think he's— I don't know what year in recruitment he's in. He's probably in year It'd be pushing 10, I think. I think he's around the 10 mark, 11 mark, maybe. Yeah, let's say 10, right? He can correct me, I'm sure. But he's still got the same energy in terms of sales and wanting his numbers to go up as you'd expect a 23-year-old start in year 2, had a bit of a taste of the money. He's still got that 10 years on. He's very And he's very, he puts a hell of a lot of pressure on himself, which is also can be the undoing. And I've had to put my arm around him a few times. So listen, like, you're playing with the big boys. Like, this is the 1% level. This is that elite marker. But so much pressure on himself. So much pressure. He's got quite a similar upbringing to me. Didn't go down the crazy private school route and stuff, but he's got that similar upbringing. He just wants to earn money. And, and yeah, he's building these numbers, but then this year it's like, okay, I'm gonna beat them. And you're like, that was a big year last year. And he's like beating them. And already when we're, when recording this and when it's come out, but he's already over target. In January, I think he's the only one in the whole business that's over target.

Wow.

And he's got the biggest target. And Yeah, I think it's just that. I think if you could pinpoint it on one thing, it's he's got the self-motivation to push himself. And that is rare. I think a lot of people can be pushed, but he will push himself. And he is his own worst enemy at the times because he'd be like, he'd hit like £9,850 in a week. He'd be like, well, I wanted to do 10. And you're like, I'm like, Sam, this is big numbers, mate. Like, these are numbers that are blowing. People can only dream about doing numbers. The average consultant will do that in a month sometimes. And, but he's got that motivation, that resilience. He, if he's not got jobs coming in and we've got so many clients that use us that we've BD'd and nothing's ever been given to us on a plate, unfortunately, he will still be BDing. Like the minute his desk is tiny little bit quiet, bang, the BD work's going on. It's like bang, bang, bang. And it's that. It's the energy. But it all comes down to one line is self-motivation. He's so self-motivated that I think you hear the analogy in recruitment is like you're mini entrepreneur, aren't you? The desk is your business inside an umbrella of business. And he takes that to another level. It's like he's keeping the lights on in that shop. Like he's got all the fluorescent. It's like a Christmas tree. He's so lit up. He's using all the power, but he just doesn't give up. Like he will. He's a natural winner. He's not going to want to come second. And it's just self-motivated. He's very, very self-motivated and just wants to strive for the numbers. I think if you said to him, can you build 600K this year? He'd take a deep breath and go, flipping heck, James. But I bet he'd do it. He'll beat last year's numbers. I know he will because he won't allow himself not to. He will literally just— yeah, he— it's, it's a very, very impressive self-motivation that he's still got this far in. It's all good and well doing that to year 2, year 3, but like I said, he's in year 10 and 11. Um, it's, uh, it's very impressive, to be fair.

It's impressive.

Um, I have a question, Sam. Do you— did you want to jump ahead?

Go ahead.

Awesome. You kind of said he Because this is the next question anyway, so this kind of leads us on nicely to what this chap does for BD. Or I'm sure, you know, maybe your consultants do something similar as well, but you said when it gets a little bit quiet or when he sees his pipeline's a little bit dry, he goes straight into BD mode. What is he doing? What does he do? Is he just hammering the phones, James? Is he going on LinkedIn? Is he like— what's his go-to method at the moment that he can predictably say, yes, if I do this, I know I'm going to win more business?

What's your favorite? I think he's, in terms of like BD as such in recruitment, he is still quite old-fashioned. He's still a phone basher. He will pick that phone up. He will go out on site. He will see people. He's not scared of, oh, it's raining. I'm not going out to see that client. He'll walk halfway across London and be like, I'll go meet you for a coffee. He's got that attitude and definitely a phone basher. He will put that phone and put an elastic band around his head and just keep ringing. But I think where I've modernised and he knows I'm a stickler, stickler for tech. He, I've sort of brought him into the LinkedIn side of things and hopefully he'll give me some praise for this. But he's, he's, he's bought into this. LinkedIn is a goldmine. I don't care what anyone says. Still, people don't use it enough. People put the odd post on it and go, oh yeah, copied it off AI and let flipping ChatGPT write for you. Great, well done. You're not gonna get anywhere because they're just doing it for the sake of it. They're not using LinkedIn for what it is. I started in recruitment when I was— I'm not prehistoric recruitment. I'm like ringing up through— I don't even know if we use Google. I can't remember. But we used to do— it was a case of ringing, cold calling, black, blunt, don't know who you're talking to, hope for the best. Lead sheets, lead sheets, lead sheets, lead sheets, talk to candidates, get some names. LinkedIn has literally gone, stuff all that crap you've done. Excuse my French. It's like, actually, there's a goal, there's an actual online directory of everyone in your whole entire industry with job title. Exactly like they're looking for someone to work for them. They're telling you, it's just like laughable really. And I sort of brought him into that. I said, look, create some shortlists, look at who your clients are. There's your targets. Go into them. I'm, I'm an advocate for like a short and sweet message. Get to the point. We're salespeople and they get hit hard by all of us and it's always paragraphs why you should use us and why we're better than everyone else. Well, I'll tell you why we're better than everyone else. Don't talk rubbish. Like it's, can I help you? This is what I do. Look at my profile. I'm the best in the game and my profile sort of backs that up. Can we be your recruitment partner? Either no reply or yes, tell me all that. And then it's like, bang, let's have a phone call, get on the phone, go from tech usefulness back to old-fashioned, get on the phone, get a meeting, bang, done. And it's just, and I've sort of helped him with the LinkedIn. I've really pushed it on him and he is, stuck in his ways as such, but he's in a good way. He's in a, he is in a, he's a typical old-fashioned recruiter in that way, but he's buying into it now. He's buying into a few other bits and, and yeah, LinkedIn has certainly given him, I think I mentioned before, his 2023 numbers was like 400K-ish to, not exact, but, and then, and then last year, the end of, we run year to year, January to December. He was over the 500K mark and he really implemented LinkedIn. I would joke, I'm like, I wonder who introduced you to LinkedIn? He's like, ah, someone. Or the client that come off LinkedIn and I know and I'm like, how'd you get that client? He's like, yeah, LinkedIn, mate.

So, uh, yeah, that's really interesting, James. So, um, give or take, adding LinkedIn probably, you know, conservatively added on like 50 to 100K to his billings, maybe more.

Exactly.

What was it that you see him— because you probably told him a bunch of stuff that you've learned from LinkedIn— are you seeing him implement something in particular that's made the biggest impact to his billings? Has he been like, 'Oh James, this is the most useful,' or 'This has helped me the most,' by any chance?

Um, I don't think he's openly said it, but I think if you were to look from the outside and actually question him on it, it would be the fact that he'd go direct to the person who's looking. Like, he might know through the grapevine who the name is, but he will find the contracts manager in construction or straight into the HR person or whoever the right person in brackets is to speak to. And here, going straight away, very short, sweet message. Bearing in mind, a lot of people don't realise that actually people read messages on LinkedIn, on their phones. So even once we can be even shorter, I think that's like People don't actually get that. And it's just telling them like, I can help you. I specialize in your industry. Let me help you. And he's, I think he's adopted that short, sharp message into the right person. And then it's a numbers game. Obviously not everyone replies and says, yes, please. But it's worked. And obviously with his general status in the industry because of his, you go on his profile and you see he's done the same sector in construction for 10 years or so. It all adds up. But I think LinkedIn is that, like, that tick where if we didn't have LinkedIn, there'd be loads of people we wouldn't have dealt with because we would have never— they don't answer the phone. Like, the gatekeeper pushes you away and you're never going to speak to them. But LinkedIn was invented by a genius because it just gave you the option to talk to someone without talking to someone because we live in 2025 where it's just a different world and everyone's very automated and you see that in the youngsters. But all LinkedIn's doing is actually allowing you to go, here's me. If you want to talk to me, talk to me. If you don't, I will be messaging loads of people. But if you do talk to me, you already know everything you need to talk. I don't need to sell you something. I don't need to send you a brochure. Like, I will help you and this is what I can do. And I think, yeah, it's a goldmine if used properly.

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like that's the common theme between the best emails, the best LinkedIn messages, the best pitches in general. They are very short, succinct, and to the point. And it's far— I think it's a lot harder to come up with a really short message that's impactful. Um, it is, it's difficult, but once you've got it, I feel like it can work like a charm. Um, so it's really interesting. Um, awesome. I'd love to go to— because I feel like there's a lot of recruiters, um, and just founders, James, that would like to get to your level, which is, you know, 14 heads. And I know you want to grow more and you've got big ambitions, but I'd really be interested in the lessons that you've learned from going from a one-man band to now 14 heads. Like, if you were to sit down with another founder who might be smaller than you on their own, what are the biggest lessons that you've learned growing to this size, do you think? What are the things that you may do differently if you were to do it all again?

Gosh, yeah. How long have you got? I know it's, um, I think it's— you have to understand that it is a learning curve. No one— you can't really like read out a textbook how to do it because otherwise I think you wouldn't do it because you'd be like, yeah, that's not for me, chuck that out the window. Um, well, I think for me was— what would I have done differently? Um, I went down a route of loads of trainees at one point. I was very, um, I'd probably use the word addicted, actually addicted to being told, oh, you're doing really well. Oh, you've got how many, how many people you got in your office? How many heads you got in the office? And it was like, you fall into that trap of like, oh, well, if I haven't got more people, I'm not doing any better. That's a load of rubbish. We had points where I think there was only 4 of us. We were doing so much better as a 4 than we were as an 8. Wow. Interesting. And that was from every avenue. That was from our own time that we had allocated to ourselves. It was in terms of financially, we just grew because we, the world told us we had to. So I'd certainly do that. I'd just focus on having the milestones, which I didn't have in place at the start. At the start, it was literally free-for-all, throw the paper in the air and hopefully it landed in a nice leather-bound book. But it didn't. It was just— but because I was a salesman, I was a recruiter, and I backed myself, it was just like money, money, money, money, money, make as much as you can and then deal with the rest afterwards. Whereas what I've learned a lot is have them goals, have them milestones, understand the financials is a massive part. I'm currently in the middle of sitting down with like an external CFO who's actually coming in to like help me get to the next level. And again, if you rewind when I was, when I went out on my own properly at 29, 30, similar times having kids, so it was a bit crazy at that time. I, I was very much like, I know everything. I don't need any help from anyone. I don't need any help from any recruitment salespeople. I don't need any help from any marketing people, finance people. What do they know that I don't? Well, they know a lot more than I do. And now, as I've been since last summer, really, I've started incorporating this, bringing in people that know stuff. You don't have to employ them, just bring them on an ad hoc basis. Like, at the end of the day, if you're a startup, you're not— unless someone's backing you and chucking £1 million in the bank, really, because you could easily get through that. Just go to like a CFO or even if you know someone who's a friend of a friend or a parent's friend or something, just go to them. They're in like finance or CFO position or whatever. You need to get that in line. Finance is definitely the thing I'd have got, I'd have done a lot better with. Because I'm like, I want 100 heads, I want 5 offices, I want every sports car in every colour known to man. And How you getting there then, James? Oh, it'd be fine. I'll get there. Whereas actually, like, no, no, no, no, no. And where we are at now is really showing me, because as you can imagine, with that amount of heads, we've got 2 offices, one's in central London, extreme rents. Our overheads are big, our burn rate is high. So sitting down and breaking it all down and really looking at it in depth and now bringing in the CFO and a sales trainer and people to help develop the staff. Oh, it's just a game changer. We really now at that point where, you can, I can now quite easily grow to like 30 people with the infrastructure we're building. And then it's easy. I think it's a lot easier after you zero to like mid-teens to 20 is probably the hardest point you're ever gonna do. You're bootlegging it with money. You don't really know what you're doing. You're gonna have people come and go, you're onboarding your trainers, so much stuff's all a bit of a blur. Once you get past that, you've got more structure and you can have non-billing people. I think it's quite easy to build. It's just trying to get that concrete foundations in place. So yeah, again, so the answer to your question is what would I have done differently? Ask for help, utilized help, and use those 3 pillars, marketing, sales, L&D and the finance side. I think finance is something that's overlooked massively. And, and yeah, and that's what we're doing now. And 10 years later, I've decided to use them. And, and now I think our growth, I think 5 years' time, if you guys have me back on or something, I think that will be a massive different landscape. I think we'll be, yeah, we'll be forgetting heads-wise. I think we'll be big. I think we'll be in like 5, I want to be turning over £50-60 million in 5 years. So yeah, it's just, it's just, yeah, just ask for help. And I genuinely in my whole life, I'm the last person that will ask for help. Like, but I've now matured and gone, do you know what? Yeah, James, you don't know everything, mate. Like, just, and YouTube can only help us so much. It's just, it's just ask for help. Like what you guys do and the and stuff, just, yeah, just ask for help and reach out to other recruitment founders. If I can pass any advice on, I'm not gonna like, I'm not keeping it all to my chest. I've got all the secrets and you live 10 years and sit there and go, cheers James, I've got 10 years. I'd rather just pass it on and say like, here's a bit of help. And I think salespeople are quite clingy with their style. They're a bit like, oh, well you're just gonna over— no one's gonna, there's plenty out there for everyone. Like if we can help each other, then why not, eh?

Yeah, I love that. Love that, James. I'm, um, I just thought of a question. We're kind of going back on ourselves, guys, but I'm curious. I always love to understand like how people structure their day, James, because it gives me an understanding of like where they allocate their time, which is really just, I think, useful. Going back to Sam, do you know what his day plan is, James? Like, do you have an idea of what he's doing on a daily basis, out of interest?

Um, I think before I was the one, he was very much sell, sell, sell. If he's not got enough to work on, he'd just go and find some. I'm, one of my sort of key elements that I do is that time management. I used to always have my own day plan and I'd call that the motorway. And if you can stick to it, if you can't, it's because you're working on something that's gonna make you money. So does he have an actual day plan? I probably still reckon he doesn't. If I'm honest with you. But again, it's why change? I think if you try and change someone that established and that good at what they do, it's, it probably can go the other way because you're so more focused on like, am I doing a day plan? He has now, he has got a route and he wants to become the MD of the solution group. And he's now taken on like more managerial positions. And we've got another guy called Harry. They're both doing the same. So that's incorporating into his day plan. He's having to have now like meetings that's not just about his desk. But yeah, I think he doesn't tick the box of day plan works because he's just got this relentless attitude to sales himself. Me, on the other way, I also was a relentless salesman, but I was very structured. I had a concrete day plan. And it was, it would always pull me back in. It was very organized. BD at certain times of the week. I sort of worked out that you don't BD on a Monday morning. Some people tell you do. I personally don't think it's a great idea in our industry anyway. And but BD on a Friday was really good in construction recruitment because construction naturally slows down on a Friday. So just working out when things work best. Yeah. But I, I would still be an advocate massively for a day plan. If you are a new recruit or whatever, just structure your day because, because recruitment can be like mental. You can be a bit like, oh crap, I've got 90 jobs here and interviews, candidates, you name it. And I think the day plan just keeps you sane and in a structure. But yeah, we've, With Sam in particular, yeah, I don't believe— he might correct me, but I don't think he will. He doesn't have a set day plan. He knows he's got to do X things at certain times of the week, but in terms of like when he does BD, when he does counts, when he does whatever, I don't think that's there. But he's an exception to the rule. Listen, if you can build them numbers without a day plan, you crack on.

That's even more impressive that he doesn't have a day plan and he's still hitting those numbers.

That's insane. He probably— a lot of— we've had a lot of top billers um, on the podcast who are more like intuitive and they don't— they can't really tell us their system, but they have one.

Like, there's—

because it obviously is a system that he's using because he wouldn't be able to get hit those numbers about some sort of structure. But I think that, yeah, it sounds like he might be more of an intuitive, um, 100%. Um, and then there's other people that can break down like every minute of their day down to a task. And, uh, but yeah, it's really interesting. Um, I'd love to Oh, sorry, do you mind if I'm going down a different route? So if you want to go down a different route as well, I just—

from working with so many, um, recruiters, especially ones that are building their, their business and like scaling, uh, one thing I know they want to do is attract more top billers. Like, that just seems to be a big thing that, um, like, how do I get more billers? How do I speak to more top billers? How do I attract and retain more top billers? What, what have you learned from working with your, um, your guys, um, guys and girls, uh, James, in terms of what, what do you— I'm guessing you want to attract a few more top billers as you grow, and have you learned anything of like how they think and what you're going to do to attract them? I'm just curious if there's anything that you've kind of—

yeah, um, I think that's, that again is quite a good— that's one of my— if someone says what's your skill set as, as you, James, is that I'm quite good at, um I sort of tell it how it is and I think they like that. I don't make it look all amazing and, oh, I'm going to bring you out of that agency and you're going to come here and I'm going to put you on a gold throne and pick you up every morning, um, from outside your house, not in person. Um, but, uh, it's, um, I think what I do is, I think in terms of recruitment, obviously I show my own CV. I've done it, I've been there, I've worked from a trainee recruiter resource all the way up to where I where I'm now, which is probably still T-boy, but I'm still somewhere one day. But I think how I attract them is, look, I'm here to look after you. I want you to progress. I think a lot of when I try and go after these high-performing elite type builders that I want to come in and build something is a lot of them are in places where they are just taken for granted, if that makes sense. The ones that I've got a couple I'm speaking to at the moment, I'm always trying to keep some fires burning in that sense. And that's where the, that's what's wrong with them. And that's like, thank you. For me, it's like, just start rubbing my hands because, okay, cool. They're not looking after you and you've got no career path and you're earning good money. Yeah, great. Well, here there's so many paths. There's no like end door. And the jobs I've left, I've only ever left 2 jobs. Both was because I was, the door was shut. I couldn't go any further. And that was in recruitment and in sales before recruitment. I literally couldn't go anywhere. So obviously I'm gonna get irritated. I, you feel like you haven't, you're not unlocking your potential. So I will sit down with someone, I'll find out about them cuz there's a lot of them that talk rubbish and I'll pull them apart quite vigorously. But if they are good and they, they've got that, like, something about them. Yeah, come and sit with me because I, one, I'll look after you. Two, I'll keep you separate in terms of you'll have a career path and that will never change. I'm not gonna suddenly go, oh, sorry, I've got someone a bit more elite than you and now your door's shut. I'll create the path, ask them what they wanna do. One person I'm talking to now wants to go off in a bit of a different tangent, which fits into my bigger plans. Whereas their company they work at now is just like, no, you're a top biller. And when you don't want to be a biller, you're no good to us. Oh, great. And I think that goes on a lot. But yeah, I think what I do is, like, you guys can see yourself, I'm quite passionate. I've got quite a lot of energy and I just look after people as well. Again, I wasn't looked after at my first ever recruitment company. I was sold a dream. I was told this and I was told that. And if you do this, you'll get this. And if you do that, you'll get that. Well, I did it and I'm I'm still waiting. Like, where's my car and where's my— and I was given so many, like, you can't do that to salespeople. Like, I worked so hard and I look back and I'm like, I literally got nothing for it. Even as a business owner now, knowing that I know that there's a lot more overheads that people don't see, but you dangled a carrot and then you pulled that carrot away from me. Sorry. And now like, yeah, you've missed the boat. And that's what I sort of sit down, I say, look, whatever I say is going to happen. And Sam was quite a good advocate for that. And Harry, they've seen from the small to where we are now and they can see the plans going forward. And I just sort of like, I think it's on my Solutions Group website, open and transparent. You ask me, I'm not going to sell, I'm not going to tell you I'm going to pay you £1 million if you only bill £400K. Like, I'm not going to promise you the world and if I don't need you or I don't think you're fit, I'll also tell you. Like, and I think where I'm got the energy, got that entrepreneurial mindset, really hungry still, lead by example. I think people buy into me, I guess. And then hopefully wanna work with me, I suppose. And again, and I won't sit, I find saying boss quite like, I don't like the word boss. It's really weird. I'll always be like, you working with me? And I'll even stop myself. I'm like, I'm your, I'm working with you. And, and I do it like I naturally stop myself. And I think that helps. I think it's like I sit with everyone. Eventually I do need my own office space because there are certain things I need to do. But even now our office is open plan. I'm in, I sit next to the most junior person in the office randomly.

That's cool.

So like, Yeah, I think that's just— I think that's what I'm selling. I'm selling me. And it's working so far and they should be lucky to come and work with me.

I think the other thing to mention, which you kind of told me in the pre-call, I think is really important, is that you're not like messaging these guys once and then having a conversation. It sounds like it's over weeks, if not months, of kind of conversations, building trust, having, you know, meals, having dinners like It sounds like it's a, you know, a longer process of really building trust with these guys. And I think that's really important because, you know, it sounds like there's an intentional process with this to build trust. Am I right in saying that?

Yeah, massively. And it is a trust thing, isn't it? Like at the end of the day, you're putting your livelihood in my hands financially. You're hoping that I'm not just a salesman, I'm talking nonsense and I'm saying, yeah, we're going to do this and that. And then I go, no, we're not. Because you've already come and worked with me. And also, especially when I'm going after the senior elite sort of billers, they, whatever they're doing now, they're getting paid well. So I'm not competing on the money side. Yeah, I'll match it and hopefully beat it. I'm more about what I can offer as a person, as a leader, as not your stereotypical 50-plus-year-old recruitment chairman director who literally pops in the office every 3 months of a suntan and goes, how are we doing? Um, it's, uh, I've got a suntan because I like a sunbed, but I'm there, I'll be involved and I'll help them. And, um, it's, uh, it's, and that's, I recruit people because I'm a, I am a recruitment consultant at the end of the day. And I, I want them to get to know me. I want them to, I have like a recruiter, I've got a pipeline at the end of the day. I talk to people, I can see gaps where we need people at the moment. I want to bring in a couple of people to spearhead mini divisions within the construction agency and U Recruitment on the other side. And yeah, I want them to get to know me. I don't want them to be like, do you want a job? No. Yes. Like, I want them to trust me. I want them to buy into me. Add all my staff, people I work with on LinkedIn and see them. And you do see that. I'll go and meet someone and I've done it recently where, and then next thing you know, in the office they'd be like, who's so-and-so? And it's, they've viewed like 5 or 6 profiles within the business. And I think that's good because you can see the retention as well. I think I mentioned to you before, I've never lost a recruiter to another recruitment agency. I've only ever, no one's ever left and gone and joined a recruitment company. Um, unless— I think the only exceptions is one person went on maternity, and then we got hit by COVID, and then we just didn't have anything. And then they, 2 years later, ended up in a recruitment company. And the odd trainee— I don't think any trainee's ever gone and worked in recruitment. So if they've left, I've totally put them off recruitment, um, doing something else. But I think that goes a long way. I think it's quite a good number. Like, and going back to Sam, and he was— you spoke about weeks and months— I think he was years, and so was Harry. And I think if you look back across conversations, I think from the first conversation, not about just like whatever in terms of like, I'm interested in bringing you on, I think the timeline will be over a year until I actually got them through the door.

That's crazy.

So I had that like, I'm not giving up. If I want something, I'm going for it. And until you tell me to fuck off as such and get a restraining order on me to not contact you on LinkedIn anymore, then I'm carrying on.

It's interesting though, because it shows you the amount of effort you're putting in to attract these top billers. Um, can I just— you know— oh, sorry, go ahead. No, carry on. No, no, I've got nothing really else to add other than just interesting, because I've never— no one has ever kind of spoken about their process for attracting top billers, and they certainly haven't told me that, you know, the amount of effort you're going into, James, to, you know, really attract these top recruiters into your business. Um, it's really interesting.

I just want to go on to the next question because I think this is really—

I think a lot of business owners will relate to this regarding—

I can see here, James, you said you experienced mental health challenges while running your business. Now, yeah, me and Ben know firsthand, we haven't got 14 heads like you, James, but even running a business with like, um, you know, a bunch of an army of VAs with us, uh, and multiple clients, it's just I have weekly little mini burn-down sessions where I need to get on the phone and be like, oh no, Ben, I'm gonna give it all up, I need your help. And then Ben's like, no, don't worry, let's just continue. So I think every business owner can relate to that. But what have you been through, James, and how did you overcome it, I guess, is my other question.

I think in terms of the mental health side, listen, you've got to be resilient in business, like you're saying there yourself. And having, well, having a co-founder, and also for you, your brother, is good. And well done, Ben, for dragging Sam through the trenches sometimes.

Sam does it for me as well. So I think we have that.

But that's what's needed. And it can, like, for me, obviously, as the sole owner, founder, whoever you want to call me, is it can be quite a lonely place and it can be in terms of like the tree as such, I suppose you want to call it, or the mountain. I technically stand on top of it, so I don't have anyone above the tip of the mountain to talk to in terms of being able to actually go blah and all that, that. Um, so for me, I had a period of time where— and I spoke about this on another podcast randomly that was more about the mental health— but, um, I had a period of time about, about 2 years ago now, um, where I literally— I— the ultimate burnout. Like, I literally had I was so— I'm very thick-skinned and very resilient anyway, and I carry the world on my shoulders as such. But I think the brain just had enough. It was like, do you know what, James? Stuff you. I'm going to let you know now. And I just, yeah, I sort of feel like I'm repeating myself, but I woke up crying. Like, I literally woke up in the morning early. It was in the summer and I was just in tears and I was like, and my wife was like, what's wrong? And blah, blah, blah. And and I don't know. And, but I was like, well, I'm so used to being in control and like, I'm a father, I'm a leader. I'm like, people look up to me in various ways, I guess. And it was like, shit, like, what is going on? And, and listen, it was scary. And I'm, I will hold my hands up to that and openly talk about it. And it was scary. It was like, why am I here? That was like the question that was like in front of my face.

Wow.

What am I doing? Like, what is, what is all this? Is this like, I don't know, it was just so strange and so scary. And fast forward 2 years, I still take medication. I went and saw the doctor, therapist, et cetera. And I think it was just having that, just that again, probably having milestones. I think 2 years ago as a business, we were very much just like Tasmanian Devil, make money, make money. What's going on? Kids, they were younger. I literally like just, I can't sit still. There's a bit of that ADHD in there that's undiagnosed and probably will be undiagnosed. Who knows? But it was very much, yeah. And I think even as a person, I'm 6'5". I'm, I walk down the road, I've got a presence. Anyone can suffer, do you know what I mean? Like you don't have to be homeless, you don't have to be lost your job, you don't have to be terminally ill. You, you, I, I probably fit the bill of people that if you asked a stranger, do you think this guy's ever suffered from mental health? And just stand me in front of them and show them my world, they'd be like, no, he's living the dream. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like genuinely it was tough and it is tough and I still have the odd battle with myself, but I think people need to realize, and I know we're all men sitting here as such, but you have to talk about it. Like, there's no ifs or buts about it. You're not weak, you're not not brave, you're not whatever. It's not woke society, all that sort of thing. Just flipping talk about it. There's people out there to help. And I think it's more apparent in business leaders. Again, old-fashioned men mentality. Don't worry about that. I'll be all right. I'll sort it out. And, but you don't want it to get too far because where I grew up from, there was like 3 boys that committed suicide in, in, in the last 10 years. I don't know the real reasons and bits and bobs and they weren't in terms of like entrepreneurs and stuff, but it's, it's bad. Like you, it's your brain. You can't, and I, I've always used the term, if you break your leg, you go to hospital. If you break your brain, what, you just carry on? Like you're just supposed to carry on and your brain is there, it's inside. You can't actually hold your brain and go, it's all right, mate, don't worry. You have to just go and do it. And I think talking about it and it's something I really want to push, like in the future when I've got some spare time, but I really want to be like an advocate for it and just be like, I want to shake people and be like, just bloody talk about it. What's wrong? Like, but don't, What's wrong? And give me 80% of what's wrong. Tell me 110% of what's wrong. Spill it all out. And then like anything, business, parenthood, you break it down. Okay, you're stressed. Well, nothing's worth it. And again, I will sit with anyone. I've had all the nice cars, I've had, I've got a nice house, I've got family, I've got 3 wicked kids and blah, blah, blah. Stuff all that for you. Like your brain, you need to look after it. And you need to talk about it. And yet it's so Probably quite common in a sales job, I suppose, because it's so much constant pressure. Recruitment is pressure and it's not for the faint-hearted. And especially we spoke the other day about permanent recruitment is you get all this high and buzz and bang, I made 30K this month and then bang, back to zero because all them guys are gone and girls are gone. They're all placed and you've been paid and now you got nothing. So it's like you've gotta have that resilience, but then also look after yourself. Like, look after that brain. You only get one. And I'm technically pushing towards halfway through life and it's like, great. But yeah, I just, yeah, I've mentally have something I'm passionate about, but also just want to like, just, just helping people with it as well because it is still for all the charities and all the posts people put on LinkedIn and, ah, mental health day and that. You're like, you don't, all you're doing is donating £10 to a mind charity and hoping it all goes away. Well, have you checked on your mate? Oh, check on your mates. It's okay to, what is it? It's, it's okay to not be okay. But people just share it a lot. I think, like, I feel like this, the life we live now, social media is very much share it because it looks good. Like, well, have you, like, asked anyone around you like help? And I, I remember posting about my breakdown, burnout, whatever it was on, on like my own personal Facebook and stuff. And I must have had 20 messages from people that had had similar thoughts, similar things, and were too scared to talk about. And they were like, James, you speaking about it has really like massively helped me. And for me, that's like, That's all I want to do. If I can help you, please. And, and, uh, yeah, it's just, it's still that unspoken disease, or whatever you want to call it, that still we're a million miles away from, from helping, I think.

Thank you.

There's my rant.

Lovely.

And, uh, yeah, I just appreciate you sharing that, man. I'm sure there's so many recruiters, especially because it's such a, as you said, high-pressure world, and even more so if you're owner of a business. Um, and we have a lot of CEOs listening to our podcast, they're going to resonate with that so much. So I really appreciate you sharing that, man.

Oh, no worries. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you, James. Um, and yeah, I think we'll— that's, uh, bring us nicely to an end. I think that was— been really lovely having you on, James, and hearing your story. I'd love to have you on for round 2. I feel like 100% definitely, you know, you've been— you've done an amazing thing so far, but I, I genuinely believe you're going to be hitting some insane figures over the next 3 to 5 years. We'd love to have you back on. And yeah, just thank you so much for your time today, mate. Really appreciate it.

Thank you for your time, guys. Seriously, it's been, um, been magic.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.

Mm-hmm.