This guy is a master at Landing and Expanding (Billed $23.5 Million with 5 Key Accounts)

Hello, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secret to their success. Today's guest is Mark Burgess. Mark is one of the most extraordinary billers I've come across. From 2011 till 2022, Mark has billed $23.5 million, and the most insane thing about it all is he did it with just 5 key accounts. Yes, 5. I think it's fair to say that Mark has mastered the The Art of Landing and Expanding. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about Mark's main BD tactics for landing whale clients, how to lead with value in order to gather game-changing information, and how to make talent acquisition look good in order to retain accounts for longer periods of time. This is going to be a great episode, guys, so as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hey Mark, how you doing?

Good, thanks, and yourself?

Very good, thank you. Very good indeed. Um, thank you for coming on the pod. Um, we are having— well, we're fortunate enough as we grow to have a few more people reach out to us. Um, I can't— maybe I reached out to you or you reached out to me, I can't remember now. I think you reached out to us, but that's not important. What is important is that you have a very interesting story, you're a top biller, and I would love for you to share your wisdom with our audience. So thank you, mate, for coming on today. Really appreciate it.

No problem. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.

Thank you, man. Um, so first question is, uh, what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software? What would you say, Mark?

Um, that's a really good question. I, my, I'd say that my number one, uh, tool in my toolkit, yeah, be mindset first, especially at first, in the first kind of couple of years. Um, from where I came from and what I was looking to achieve. I think you need to get yourself to the level of work that this job does entail, contract at recruitment. You need to really want to be there. A lot of people fall by the wayside if they're not motivated by the right things, because you do need to put up, sort of show up each day. I think a big thing in mindset as well for me Which is, it was a stumbling block at first as well because I was a quite wet behind the ears 21-year-old who was acting like as though I was a million-pound biller from the word go. But I think you do have to have an element of acting as is and not what if. So that's kind of your attitude to positivity, to being sort of successful each day. And that takes a whole lot of mindset because that has to be a discipline. You know, your integrity to yourself, your commitment to what you're trying to do, and of course your determination. Because you can be motivated to do something, but if you haven't got the determination to see it through, then it doesn't really mean a lot. So I'd say that my mindset is where, where I started. And I think what I did before recruitment was, you know, did get me in a good mindset to succeed in the industry. So that I've sort of always thought to myself, I, I will always do it. You know, I will always be— if somebody else can do it, then I can do it. That was my mindset.

It's really interesting. Um, I'm curious, um, Mark, so if there is a young recruiter who's thinking about getting into the contract world, you said, you know, you got to, got to be ready for the level of work. What, what does that look like? Like, how, how hard would you be working the beginning stages of your career? Like, what's realistic? What would you expect to be putting out on a day-to-day basis?

Oh, I was never somebody that was lucky enough, uh, or probably smart enough to, um, work out the quickest way to do something. You do get some people that could literally just do 2 hours work and be the same output, but I think at a certain point they're the people that get to maybe, um, earning just shy of 6 figures and then sort of stop there and think that's enough, um, which I'm you know, it's enough for them. What, what did I— what would I have to do? Well, I was always taught that if you're trying to be somebody, you have to be doing what they do as a minimum. So for instance, that was, you know, if my mentor was in the office at 8 in the morning, then I'd be there just before him. And, you know, it was a proper old school vibe that I came through. So I remember the first week I got up at 5:30 to leave, which is when we were governed that we were allowed to. And whilst I'm not saying we would maybe do that this time, do that now, I think some companies doing this while they're successful. I got up and my boss looks at me, it's like, ah, you had a good day today? Okay, that's good. You had a great day. We'll all stay here because none of us hit our target. And then that kind of said, say, the next day made me stay to realize that just because I've done well doesn't mean that everybody else has, and it's a team effort. So I, I'm not saying that to be successful in recruitment you have to work 24 hours a day, but if I'm selling a service to my clients, and one of the things that I would say is I'm contactable most of the time, you know, if not all times, um, and one of my— one of the things that I do hold quite dear is my work ethic. And when I opened that big account, which I had first, you know, my boss— the person who was the client, sorry— was in a time zone 2 hours difference to me. So if they texted me at 6 in the morning and I only text them back at 9 in the morning, I've given 3 hours for my competitor to have called them and, uh, and, and moved me aside. Um, So yeah, so that is what— that is that mindset of, okay, if that's what it takes to get there, then you need to do that, right? So, um, yeah, I think that's what you need to do.

Yeah, absolutely. The reason I like to go into it is because we talk a lot about top billers, and I think for other recruiters, they, they kind of think it's unrealistic or unbelievable when we speak about figures like, like you and other top billers that have achieved. But then I like to kind of frame it and say, look, these guys have worked incredibly hard more so than the average recruiter. And so I kind of just like to talk about, okay, like, how hard were you actually working? So it sounds like you were getting up early, in the office at 8 AM, probably out the door at what, 6, 7 PM, doing that every day. Were you working weekends as well, or what was your—

yeah, I mean, well, first year I didn't have any money to spend in London anyway, so I thought, okay, well, how can I get ahead of my peer group? And there was 15 of us And after, I think, 6 months, there were only 2 of us. It is quite a cutthroat industry, especially at that time, because it was after, um, it was 2011, so it's quite booming, it's going quite well. And I just had to differentiate myself. And then first sort of 6 to 12 months, it was working harder than everyone else, and that's what I became known for. And then your peers start to trust you a bit more, so then they, they start giving you— they let you shadow them a bit more and stuff like that. And one of the guys did did call me one Friday. I literally saw him do it on the spot. He, um, he called a manager 26 times in a day, and then basically, because he knew it was a piece of information that person would need, and he, um, he picked the phone up to him and he managed to get the meeting. The guy said, can you fill 25 contract positions for us, you know, by Tuesday next week? And me and him camped out in the office that weekend, you know, and it's like Yeah, it's just you've got— you just get it done. You just do the things you've got to do to do it. But I think there's peaks and troughs though. So there are times where, you know, it's maybe good to sort of slow down a little bit. You don't have to be working 24/7 all the time, but you have to go where that work is. And if that work requires you to do it then and there to get it done and for somebody to believe in you the next time and the next time and the next time, that's how you get continuous business. You know, a lot of people say a lot about relationships in, in sales and stuff, but I personally don't necessarily believe in that. I, I think that people believe that you could do the job that they've asked you to do.

Um, interesting.

You know, it's like, okay, I've got great relationships. Some, some of my clients came to my wedding sort of thing, but, um, but they, they were built up over trust for, or believing in me over like 5 or 10 years, you know. Yeah, certainly in that first instance, if you're not the person that is always doing what you say on the tin, then I don't think, you know, then you're opening yourself up to a Mark Burgess to call your client, which, you know, you know what I mean? Like, so yeah, yeah, so, um, but yeah, and also an application of effort when you actually are at work. So that's the main thing, a big thing. But yeah, you learn that when— if you, if you're surrounded by good people, then you'll learn that anyway. But it's a lot of it's a team that you're in as well. You know, if you've got a team of people that don't really want to do it, then as a youngster it's quite hard to be the one that does it because you kind of follow who you're led by as well.

Yeah, I feel like the early stages of recruitment are so important. Like, if you're in a company that's high achieving from the get-go and they set this high standard, it's like, I feel like you're, you're already like 100 miles ahead of other average recruitment firms who are kind of instilling this average mindset to their recruiters. So I think, I mean, obviously I'm sure you've got this innate drive inside of you as well, but being around high performers at an early age must be, must have been, you know, an absolute game changer, which is interesting.

Yeah, yeah. Like, but also having a company or a group of people, I think you, you buy more into the person or, you know, than just the company as well. And I think a group of people that were willing to help out as well and who, because you put the effort into them, they then put the effort into you. That's important too. Yeah, some people get really unlucky. I guess I got, that was the one thing that I definitely got lucky with is like where I landed, if that makes sense. You know, the fact that there were people who across the world at that company were willing to give me the time of day, but then they weren't willing to give everyone the time of day because those people when asked didn't put up and show up, you know. So it goes both ways, right?

Yeah. 100%. You said something, um, Mark, that you had the discipline instilled. I think you said the word discipline instilled before recruitment. So before you got into recruitment, you had that kind of drive and discipline. Where did that come from? I'm guessing it was— I mean, you've told me off camera a bit about your past, but what, what, what, what happened before recruitment that helped you with your discipline, your drive?

Yeah, yeah. Without going too, too much personal details, I, well, I didn't come from a very sort of well-off background, so everything that I've got is mine, um, which I think makes you appreciate it more when you've got it. But also it kind of does help you have that, you know, I'm not going to stop until I get something for myself attitude. But yeah, I guess the, um, always going at 100 miles an hour attitude it helped, but I was in quite a high, um, sought-after regiment in the British Army, um, as a reserve, and then partially for full-time, you know, um, for a while, training quite a lot for 3 or 4 years before I joined, um, the recruitment industry. So the infantry definitely instills that, that discipline for sure. Um, we're not talking about the army, so we don't go too much how they do that, but, um, it's that attitude of like you're letting everyone else down, not just yourself, if you're not doing what you're asked to do, you know. Um, so that, that's my background anyway. My background's mixed with I didn't have anything when I started and I needed it, and then secondly, I've got the sort of, uh, the morals of determination, courage, integrity, selfless commitment, stuff like that from the military background. That really, really helped me out.

Interesting. So you've got two kind of like key anchor points that help drive you, which is you kind of— you'd kind of childhood maybe not having as much and then wanting more, making it yourself, and then Army as well. Really powerful. It's really, really powerful.

Yeah, it was good. Lucky there as well.

Um, I would love to get straight into your billings, Mark, because I feel like your, your story is quite unique in the sense that you're a million-pound biller. I mean, you've done multiple millions in some years. 2016, 1.2. 2017, 1.9. 2018, 2.6. 2019, 4.2. 2020, 3.8. 2021, 5.9. 2022, 3.9. Like, that's just insane consistency in the millions. I find that fascinating. And what's even more interesting is that you don't— you do this with like 5 accounts over this period, if I'm not mistaken. This is not volume recruitment, this is like 4 or 5 accounts, if I'm not mistaken. Um, yeah, and then nurtured over, you know, 7 years, which is quite extreme. I've never heard a recruiter come on and do that, that early on in their career and, and maintain it for that period of time. Um, So yeah, sorry mate, were you gonna say something?

No, those figures are like along with renewals. Yeah, so continuous business. The new NFI ones were a little bit different, but there were a couple of, um, a couple of over 2 mil years, but they're always in the millions from that last 5 years at my old company.

Yeah, I mean, it's still very impressive. Um, so I'd love to go into that, um, Specifically off camera, you told me that your story— sorry, your journey really changed when you started leveraging information from candidates, um, and using it in a way to approach certain decision makers. Can you tell us more about that, please? Because I'm guessing that is kind of the anchor of winning, uh, these new accounts.

Yeah, I mean, um, that's a good question, that, um Leveraging off candidates makes it sound like I'm just getting information from them and not giving back, but it wouldn't be the case. And I think anybody that's worked with me from an applicant side would say the same. But I think you've got to look at what everyone else does. So you only have to be on LinkedIn for 5 minutes to know that most recruitment companies will tell you that if you spec CVs out to clients and ask consultants for leads, that that's the way to do it. But I think you've got to flip it. And I'm not just saying this like it sounds quite fluffy. It really is the case that there are two rules. You only ever get something from someone if you give them something first. That is a fact. And I know there's a lot of people that won't agree with me, but it's worked for me. So I mean, everyone's reality is different, right? But that one's the one for me. And the second one is definitely like the information is your currency in this job. So what I would always try and do is find out downwards with the boots on the ground, what I would call, you know, the consultants or anyone who's doing the job. How can you help them? How can you make their life easier? And then people will literally give you things for free. People will give you information. They will answer your direct questions more. How many freelancers do you have working in your team? Who are the main players? What agency is better than me? Why are they good? How can I be better than them? What do— what could I do differently? These sort of things. So that's not to say that the classic sort of lead gathering and hunting doesn't work, because it does. But I just personally, I learned the hard way in the first 5 years that it didn't work necessarily. And I flipped it at the right time to think in a sort of a different way, in that every single transaction you've got to give something to receive something back. So I guess, and that approach is also not just downwards, that's also upwards for customers. So, you know, yeah, if people give you something, they will give you something if you've given them something first. And, you know, if you don't have a particular job for that person, but they know that you know your stuff about the tech because you've spoken to people in that tech for 6 months, okay, then can you tell them about a particular job that you don't have that someone else does have and help them out. And then in 6 months' time when they finish it, they come back to you first as their preferred person because you've given them something. So I guess, I guess I was always thinking about being number one at my former company. So then I was thinking, okay, I don't need to get a lead now, but I can keep these people in my network and serve them for 6 months, for 12 months, for 2 years. And now 10 years later, most of my clients are the people who 15 years ago were a developer or were a consultant and now they're a director at a business, etc.

Wow.

You know, so it's what's in it, you know, it's a long-term game and that strategy only really became apparent to me a little bit later. But I guess you make use of the tools when you've got them, right? But yeah, if I can tell anyone to you and the Toolkit guys is what's in it for them, how can I help you? And you'll be surprised how many people open up and actually tell you what you can do for them. And if any of you prove to them that you can do it, I think personally that's when you, you start getting people believe in you, and then that's where you start getting real information that no one else has got. And then, you know, there should be leaders around you that can tell you how to turn that into, into money.

It's really interesting. Um, yeah.

Long-winded answer.

So, no, great answer, really good answer, Mark. And, um, just to kind of touch upon that, so giving— completely get the concept— giving, um, something, you know, giving something to return, to get something in return. You mentioned two things, so I'm guessing job, a job, or job advice for future prospects, or tech. What was the most— was there one thing that you consistently gave that was always the most valuable and always you know, the go-to thing that worked for you, or did it vary quite a lot from candidate to candidate?

So, another good question. It varied a lot. What I did in those first 6 to 12 months is I, I called all of the SAP consultants in the Netherlands, and I knew off the top of my head 10 for every single module. There's like 300 modules, so, and then I would network within them, and if somebody was looking for somebody, I'd say, I'll just call this guy. If I knew that I couldn't call that client and get onto their list, or, you know, it was a, it was a, an unheard of thing to go straight away into that business, um, I would, um, I would pass information to those people, say, why don't you just call this guy for this? And then more often than not, the next time that they need somebody, they think, and they could hire somebody using externals, they would call me first. And then you see that a lot on LinkedIn today, right? It's changed, you know, 15 years ago it was just a desk phone and it was calling these people and using your notepad to make the links and to connect the dots. But now people can just comment on LinkedIn, oh, you should speak to this guy, you know, or You can link people in groups even on the messaging feature, stuff like that. Um, I'm not saying you're giving stuff for free, but as soon as you've given them something like that, if you then ask for something in return, downwards, that could be, okay, I've just linked you to a job. Not something that you've seen on LinkedIn, like, you know, that guy's hiring that guy because you know everybody in that ecosystem. Downwards, you then ask that kind of, okay, but I need this one filled in. So here's the 3 guys that you would recommend that I call for this 2-minute conversation. Then you've got another 3 people. And it's really not crazy complicated. It's just giving someone a piece of information backwards. And then upwards to clients, you know, if you have a, with a client partner from a consultancy, you pass them a piece of information that's going to be relevant to them and it's within their account and it's for another consultancy. That's not there, then you pass it and they win some business. You know, it's something as small as leaving that email with, the next time you need external support, please give me a call. You'd be more surprised, you'd be surprised the amount of people that do. There are obviously people that just completely ignore it. That's absolutely fine. I had one, one Salesforce consultancy, I won't name them, but they're brilliant because it's quite funny, um, an MD for Salesforce of a German company who's looking for a job. And I just sent him his— sent this lady his profile and said, look, here's his phone number, give him a call, he's looking for a job. He was my client looking to leave. And so her reply on LinkedIn was, we don't work with headhunters. I was like, okay, I think you understand what I'm doing. I'm literally passing you his information. I don't want anything out of it. But you know, some people, sometimes it doesn't work and it gets lost in translation. But you can bet your bottom dollar when I went to the World Tour, she was the first person I walked up to and said, I was actually trying to give you a freebie there. And then we had a laugh about it. You know, like, it's not just about giving freebies either. It can be a piece of information about, oh, I've heard that these are the big 3 projects in the region. What are you— you're looking for the biggest, best, greatest contracts because you're the greatest contractor in this module, if they actually are. How are you getting into them? I don't know. Do you know anyone at that company? Yes. Okay, who is it? Let me call them for you. You know, yeah, these, these sort of things.

That's really—

for me, it's basic, like basic human kindness.

Yeah, it's interesting. It sounds— well, in principle, especially, I'm guessing it's a lot harder to execute. And this is where my feeling is, is that maybe once you're— correct if I'm wrong, but when you're 5, 6, 7 years down the line and you have all these contacts, all this knowledge, all this influence, it's a lot easier to make connections and bring people together. Could you still do that at the beginning of your career, or did that only really happen or like come to fruition like 5 years down the line when you had that experience? What's your feeling?

Great question. Yeah, no, you can't do that straight away. You need to put in the hours of— there are two, there are two ways to go. Uh, I've got nothing against people cold calling. I think it's an amazing skill if you're really good at it. Um, I personally would not say that I'm the best cold caller on the planet. 'Cause I always naturally, because of the way that I've been programmed to try and connect dots before I make a call, and that's not looking through LinkedIn for 2 hours, that's just trying to create a reason or an assumed benefit as to why I'm speaking to that person. And that assumed benefit might be, I know you're here and you need to be here, so I think now's the right time for us to speak because of this. Or that might be, you know this guy and I know him, you can even call him and ask, let's have a chat. So you know, and it was a lot harder, which is probably why it took me so long, because that's the way I'm wired up to be able to connect those dots. But I was fortunate enough to see at the time a good friend of mine, Colin. He, he would literally just walk past me every single day and be like, just dots, just connect the dots, like, because he knew, he knew that that's how I like to think. And, um, yeah, so, so I guess your ability to like retain information is something that you either You guys have all done recruitment, right? So, you know, your ability to retain information isn't— and obviously you can use your CRM, whatever, but if it comes quite quickly in your head, I think that skill definitely is developed a lot over time doing this job. If you make 60 phone calls a day, 4 hours, 2 hours, whatever, you know, your ability to retain information and then make those links, they happen a lot more as you become tuned to that skill. So it doesn't happen overnight. And I think a lot of people think it should happen overnight, which is why they go into spamming with 1,000 cold emails or just calling people without an assumed benefit. But we always were taught, and I always teach my guys, put, put the basics in motion first before you just call everybody. Yeah, if that makes sense. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Makes a lot of sense. That was really useful. Thank you, Mark. So you also spoke about— so one way that you're using, that you're, you know, securing these high-value accounts is giving value and offering something and then getting something in return, which is, like you said, human nature and taps into human psychology. Another thing you mentioned was using referrals to win accounts. I think you've done that once or twice with huge accounts. Do you mind just telling us a bit about that and how you've managed to use referrals to your advantage to win new accounts?

Yeah, of course. Excuse me. Yeah, it's again, it's circumstance, but you leverage off the circumstance you're in. I had a guy working for a company in the Netherlands, the contract finished And, uh, the two, two agencies before him hadn't paid him on time, and he'd had horrendous contracts for the English agencies. And he's like super against working with, uh, a +44 number, but I managed to get him on board. Uh, he had a mutual love of beer, so I met him, we had a good, a good drink in Amsterdam, and we remain friends now. And I just, I got a lead that a company in the Netherlands needed a guy, and, um, I just— it twigged that he'd already worked there before, and the reference I'd taken for the previous contract that he got was the same guy that was hiring. So I called him up and said, do you mind if I— yeah, you need to be paid by somebody, are you okay with it? You know, and he's like, yeah, cool, because he trusted me. If I called up that manager and that manager said, yeah, but no, I don't believe you, and then he called the contractor up and the contractor said, yeah, that's actually legitimate, it's true. And then, um, flew over to Amsterdam the next day and made that placement with that business, and which then turned into 198 contractors over the next 5 years, um, as a total headcount high. So that was a referral from the downwards, right? But not really a referral. Again, it was me using information I got, but the fact that I'd done right by that person and had done a good job and he, you know, was always honest and transparent and was myself, it worked, you know. Um, so that's that one piece of— that's, I guess, one way of getting referrals. But I think you kind of owe yourself— you do yourself an injustice if you don't ask for something every time that you've done something good. That's something good. A lot of people like, um, Maybe, maybe I'm after 15 years doing it and now running my own business, I look at a bigger way. But I think, uh, there's a lot of opportunities that people don't ask for something back. And for me, the, the main— again, it's not introducing me to a company, so to speak, just leverage on that. If they believe in you, then give them— give me 3 people who— or 4, 5, whatever it is, a couple of people who you believe in as well. Um, do you know what I mean? Like, because— and a lot of people don't ask because they think it's cheeky to ask, but if you don't ask, you don't get, do you? So it's, um, in, in that respect. So if I'd help out the, this consultancy, the, the manager for Germany in, in SAP, I'd be like, you— I know on Monday morning you sit with a steering committee for the whole of the globe. Who are the other guys? I've done a good job right now, and hook me up with them. And people will do that if you ask, but not enough people ask. So referrals are the biggest part of this job, you know, but the people will only give you a referral, number one, if you ask, and number two, if you've done something right by them. And you've got to ask at the right time every time.

So interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's fascinating.

The question. Yeah, it does.

It's fascinating how few people actually ask for referrals because you're right, it does sound almost— it's kind of a British thing, I think, isn't it? It's like it feels too cheeky. It feels like you're asking too much. But I guess as well, if you genuinely believe in your service and you feel like you've provided an exceptional service, I feel like you're more— you, you go to the conversation with a lot more confidence, don't you? It doesn't feel so cheeky because it feels like, you know, you've actually done it and you've helped them out really, haven't you?

And yeah, yeah, yeah. Is word of mouth a thing in other countries? Of course it is. Like, uh, you know, people have been doing that for hundreds of years. Yeah, it's just in a different way. And it's like, oh, because you're on the end of a phone, you don't ask. It's like, just ask again. Like, you only put— you can only fail, like, and say, no, I'm not comfortable doing that right now. All right, mind me asking why not? Like, what's— what can I do to be better? So that—

yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, hooking me up with your guys, you know, like— and I think that bluntness I've got, um, has got me in trouble sometimes, but that's a story over a beer. But, but for sure, it's like, uh, yeah, I'd rather just get that sort of elephant out of the room that, look, mate, I'll be honest, like, it's great doing business with you. I want to do— I need to do more, you know. It's not even a want, I need to do more. Uh, mind helping me out? You'd be surprised how many people say yes.

Yeah, so it's so true. And I reckon if every recruiter listening to this just did that one thing, just went to every single one of their clients and past clients and just asked for a referral, I reckon they could probably win at least one piece of business, right? Like, at least, which is interesting. So it's definitely a really good piece of advice.

Yeah.

Um, a question a bit off topic, um, Mark, but you've been a contract recruiter for many years now and, you know, hitting quite big numbers. What's some of the— what's, what's one of the biggest lessons you've learned as a contract recruiter that you could give to someone else who is maybe billing lower numbers and wants to get to your numbers? Um, what's your, what's your advice, would you say? Quite a generic question, so a bit difficult to answer.

No, it's a good question though.

Um, so anything specific to contracts?

Yeah, yeah, uh, you can— okay, so, okay, the biggest piece of advice is never— and there's a running theme for all of this— never bite off the hand that feeds you. So I've seen So I mean, I personally don't think that you can be more than like 50 contractors as a 360-degree recruiter. I mean, I'm yet to see it, and I'd love somebody to contact me and say I can do that, shush Mark, that would be great because I'd hire them immediately. But I think that even if you are only doing 180-degree, so like just speaking to clients, even if you're an account manager, if you don't speak to the people on the ground, that what I would call the boots on the ground, because I still think of myself as a fancy military guy, but like the consultants and devs, right? If you don't speak to the people and have a network of people, a reality check, then, then, uh, you're not gonna— it's not gonna last so long. Um, so I do think it's very important. I, I teach my, my guys you have a 30-30-30 rule. And I'd say it's 30% candidate time, 30% existing business time, and 30% new business time. Now, the candidate time is because that's where your true, your true lessons come from. They are the people that are literally being— know the reality of what a project looks like, and they actually are the ones that are a reality of telling you, if you've got them on your side, where you should best come in. Obviously, 30% of your time is, is obviously really well spent on— you have to spend time and not just assume that somebody is going to give you business that has given you business before. That's a fact. And then 30% of this new prospecting time— I mean, it was a, um, it was a question that you asked me offline— is I've seen somebody go with 80 contractors and lose them in one day, which completely crumbled our entire London office, uh, you know. That can happen if a company, if you're with a direct customer or a consultancy, you know, COVID happens, which has happened. This was before then, um, they just had a bad quarter of sales, like your entire desk has just gone and you've signed up for a nice fancy rent and all of these outgoings and, you know, so you never put all of your eggs in one basket and also it's important like, um, to have to not have skill fade too. So I think sales is a skill, and if you, if you have a— what I mean by skill fade is if you're not constantly speaking to people or trying to get the most out of every business that you have, then you're kind of asking yourself to— at one point, one point soon it's going to stop. I think that's why I consistently feel, and especially at the, you know, where I was before, because I would always split my day like that, um, quite religiously, so that I knew that my skills of anything in terms of a sales job have never sort of faded. Um, that's a lucrative position to be in when you've got bosses in front, in charge of you, handling all of your budgets and stuff. And I've had to somewhat change my approach now that I run my own company But I still find time in the week, even if it's a couple of hours here and there, to speak to new people, to speak to existing people. I think it's really important, and I do think it's really important as a leader of salespeople as well, that you're doing the job that you're asking the guys to do for you as well. That's just my own philosophy though. But yeah, that would be the answer to that.

Yeah, great.

Yeah, never down tools, basically. Yeah, yeah.

Can we touch upon— I really love that. So 30, 30, 30, 30% candidates, 30% new business, 30% existing clients. Um, I love that. It's simple, you can remember it, um, it's split into 3 kind of core areas. Would you mind if we kind of touch upon them? So like, let's say you're— one of your consultants is going into 30% candidates. What does that look like? Are they just calling, asking loads of questions? I'm guessing specific questions about how things are going. Can you, can you touch upon that and we can go into those areas if that's okay with you, just really quickly?

There was a little delay, I didn't catch what you said. Sorry, sorry, mate.

I was just saying, um, can we touch upon those 3 areas, maybe starting with candidates, that 30% candidates and what they do during that period?

Yeah, yeah, sure. So, well, I think at the beginning it should even be more, more weighted towards, um, speaking and, and being a master in knowing the ins and outs of of whatever your area is that you're doing. Yeah. Um, and then after you've kind of got an established sort of— you can never know your market, right? But if you've got a name in the ecosystem, for me that took about a year, and then I guess it's more speaking to clients than it is candidates. So those, those will change. But okay, yeah, I mean, the 30%, like, I mean, if you're sitting on a desk on your own then it's probably a bit harder. I was always fortunate enough to have people who were salespeople working around me who also had business, so I would go and resource for their roles. And even if I didn't get paid for doing that, I'd still see the value in having a runner base of candidates to then have that are my guys that I can call on a bad day to make me feel better or to get something out of or to give something to. So that would be what the 30% is. It's, it's your— you're building a network within where you want your client base to be. Yeah, that's the candidate side. Do you want to talk about the other stuff? Is that—

yes, also maybe let's wait, let's jump over to— can I just stay on the candidate side? Because my feeling is from what you said, Mark, which was, um, and correct me if I'm wrong by this, but By, you said 50 contractors, we need to call them, you know, consistently keep the relationship with them and they give us a lot of information of what's currently going on as well. Am I right in saying that by calling candidates consistently, you know, your 50 contractors that you've got, you're also getting information of what's going on in the business, new opportunities opening up, and they're just, they're just giving you current up-to-date information if you're tapping into all of them. Is that something that you would do or not? Is that not—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, first of all, if you've got 50 contractors as a resourcer or a delivery associate, then you're going to be making money. And if you're not, move, to be honest. And it's important. That's your business. If that was just your business, you'd be doing very well. So it's important to speak to those. I mean, I'm not on about talking to them every single day and knowing what their shoe size is. Okay, but you should 100% know if they're gonna, if they're happy on their assignment, and you should 100% know what their environment is where they are. And in knowing the environment of where they are, you know, the best story, the best ones are when a recruiter comes up to me and says, I've opened a client. It's like, okay, how many people do you know that client? 3. Okay, they've got 16,000 people working there. Congratulations on opening it. So what, what can you get from the person that's working there? You're paying that person on time, you're doing them a solid, you've got them the job, they like you as a person. Ask for something back. You know, who sits opposite you? When do you go to the pub? Can I come? Like, uh, these sort of things, you know. If you, if you do that 10 times a week then you'll have two pieces of information that, you know, can equal 2 2 4, and then you can go and get some more business from somewhere. Like, and also those guys are the best salespeople on the planet, the people that were calling for jobs, because they called 30 times every single day. So are they on your side? And are they telling you that Joe Blogs from XYZ Recruitment didn't do a good job when he put me forward for this role, so here's who the client is? Like, are they doing that for you because you've done them a solid? Like, that's actually just the nature of business. Like, um, but a lot of people again don't— they, they stop nurturing and, um, and caring once they get paid. So in that case, you know, obviously with contract it's different, you get paid on a time material basis. When a timesheet comes in, you invoice a client, you get paid monthly, so it's a lot easier. But I still see it in direct hire recruitment as well. I don't understand why if you make one piece of placement and then you've got a 3-month rebate, you don't speak to them 6 months down the line, just because you've been paid. It's like, that guy's your person. Yeah. In fact, my wife is a Salesforce admin, you know, and she keeps in touch with the same recruiter who's not me. I don't get involved in that. That's a different disguise. But yeah, she's been in touch with the same guy for like the last 5 years. Whenever she's been available, he's the first person that she's called, right? So yeah, I think, you know, it works all over. And it's important that no matter who— you can never be too big for your boots. You have to be able to— you have to, you have to have the time to not get that skill fade. Too many people down tools, and all right, if they go into the management of the team, great, but I would also say you need to be able to, uh, do the job to manage the team as well. But that's just my personal opinion.

Yeah, interesting. And I'm sure this crossover with business development But can you talk about business development now? So 30% business development, what goes on in, in their world, do you think, when they're going into BD mode?

Yeah, um, so a lot of my business development was done, uh, with a consultancy once I got in. Like, uh, when an acorn lays, an oak tree can grow, sort of thing. So it— you'd have one country and then you'd turn it into two, then for and stuff like that. So you can— with that, it's quite an interesting one. I mean, uh, I was— the first 5 years, it was like, oh, never speak to a recruiting manager or talent acquisition. And again, when a lot of my mentors moved on, um, one of them is a high flyer at Salesforce, 3 of them have their own businesses, and one of them is now my business partner, um, I kind of had to do something special because all the eyes in the office were looking at me, and I decided to flip that on its head. Um, and I just started making friends and, uh, asking TAs and the people that we've been told not to speak to, how can I make this about you? What can I do to make you look good? And, um, that, that worked somewhat. So, so the BD front from me The biggest thing is it's very easy when you know and predict what would be in it for them. So you— and through the information you've got from downwards, you, you can kind of like say, I know that you're going to need this and I reckon it'd help you do this. It's quite hard to do that without sounding arrogant, um, and too confident. So yeah, I think A lot of the business development within a consultancy side, there's a lot of it. A lot of people just don't— they say that hunters and farmers are completely different. I personally think they're the same. You have to be a really good hunter to be a very good person at farming an account because if you just sit there and wait for business to come to you when you've opened a customer or gotten a PSL, then you're asking somebody who's better than you to come in and make no mistake, there's always a bigger wolf, right? So, um, so you have to always constantly be knowing as many people as you can, not just for knowing them's sake, but finding out what triggers people to, to look— make you look in a good light. Um, so I'd always be trying to just— I don't know, like with that account that I had, I probably knew about 300 people. Like everybody knew who I was. Wow. And then, you know, like, I learned the hard way how not to do that, um, in the first 5 years. But then I think through learning, you know, it's not about being aggressive either. It's about doing it all at the right time and knowing when somebody needs you. But then leading, leading with a 'what is in it for you, how can I help you' is actually quite a Once you've got that credibility, it's something that, you know, is a lost art.

Yeah, interesting. And I love that. So speaking, you said you flipped it on its head and you went to these TA people and said, how can I make you look good? I'm curious. So for me, what's going through my head at the moment is you either spoke to people higher up, got information and leveraged that, or you were very good at warming up warming them up and asking them good questions for them to open up in some way, or maybe you did a bit of both. Which, which one? Maybe you could help me out. Which one was it? Was it a bit of both, or did you lean on one or the other?

It's always— there's never a good or a right way to do it, so it's always, um, it's all of them, you know, all three of those. Uh, the, but the opportunity presented itself to me for it to be, um, for it to be asking them, how can I make your life easier? Because they were a company that was quite new to Europe. They didn't really have— I was a great— you know, didn't have too many suppliers. And they were like, what do I do? I don't want you to just go and steamroll me out of a job. So, you know, but I also do need your help. So we kind of took that as, okay, actually let's use this person and make them look, look great. Um, but so it's all three of those things really. There's not really— there's not, there's not an answer. It's, um, I guess thinking on your feet's quite a hard, hard thing to do, but over time you do learn how to do it.

Yeah, cool. Okay, so there wasn't one particular thing that you leveraged more than the other, it was kind of depending on the situation, right?

Yeah, but yeah, definitely depending on the situation. But then even now, like, you can sort of, um, you can— if you know that that business works for your competitor and you know that you can help them, again, give them something for— not for free, but just try and engage with them, not just asking for something. Try and give them something first.

Yeah, yeah. Sorry, one last question, Simon, and then Sorry, Mark, just interrupt you there as well, mate.

Nice. I was just saying it's all the same stuff. It's quite boring. So sorry about that.

No, not at all. I think what we've learned is the seemingly boring stuff is all the stuff that all these top billers mention time and time again. They just do it exceptionally well. Um, so there's no, you know, absolutely, it's really interesting. I got one last question on that just because I'm really curious more than anything and I don't know the answer. Um, these TA professionals, when you say, you know, how can I make you look good, What were some of the responses like? What did they actually want? What was their motivation? How did they want to look good? Like, what was it that would make them look good? Like, I'm trying to get inside their heads now and be like, okay, what, what do they want kind of thing? What do you think?

I would never say, how do I make you?

No, I know you wouldn't say exactly.

Yeah, I get it.

But I mean, like, if we're playing along that theme.

Yeah, sure. Okay, so let's say, you know, 50 people in a business and they all come to you first. but your TA in Europe is reporting to the global who spent loads of money on a procurement function. Okay, so it's like, listen, I know that you can do the job, but if I keep accepting you doing it without me, then my boss is going to kick my ass. So, so can you please like include me? So, okay, how do we do this then? So you want to just work with me? Okay, give me this. Okay, cool. So when that person from the business, because there's, you know, approaches you, because every single technology manager in a business has their own preferred suppliers, even if they've got a PSL, they tell you they've got a PSL, but they've got their own guys they want to work with. So if they come to you, just forward it to that TA and say, look, this, but tell the manager who's come to you, I've got, I'm going to tell a TA, get them on our side, tell the TA that that's happened. Like give them something for free. It's like, and then that person— I mean, obviously it doesn't work all the time, but if you've had a combo, you've ever said, look, you know that I know a lot of people in your business. I don't want to— I don't want it to look like it's just me that's doing it. So essentially, let me— let me— or loop them in the email and say, hi XYZ, can I send a CV to this? Because the guy's asked me, obviously I wanted to follow your process. Is it okay are you happy with it? Like, is it something that I'm— can I ask for, ask for approval, if that makes sense? That's something that, like, I don't know, it's a really weird thing within sales and recruiters. It's like, a TA has told me that, that I'm not allowed to speak to my— the business or whatever, and then they get really annoyed about it. And it's like, okay, yeah, but why don't you just ask them why are they saying that? And then 9 times out of 10, they'll say, because literally you spent millions of pounds in the software, so you have to do it this way. 'So can you just help me do it that way?' Yeah, okay, fine. But you're still, you know, and as long as you don't make somebody's life hard by having to jump through loads of hoops at the end of the state, end of the process, as long as you're only there to help them have an easy life, then 9 times out of 10, people will, uh, will love you for it. So yeah, so the way I would, would have— like, this is one example— would be that business in North America's asking for help in Europe. I have— before I even sent the CV, I'm kind of like, he didn't even know who to speak to in Europe. So I'm saying, you've got to speak to this person, let me link you up. Hey Mr. TA, this person, you need to okay this and make sure you go through your hoops. And then because I've done that, that person's then like, okay, you're a good guy, thank you for not making me look bad.

Like, interesting.

Yeah. And then now I don't have to worry about it because Mark's what it's all, you know, it's like, just think about the bigger picture. Like, if you were in that person's seat and somebody is literally only causing you hassle by doing their job, yes, but only causing hassle, what would you think of them? You'd be like, go away. Like, you know, so that's what I mean by make it about them. Just put yourself in their shoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I feel like the consistent theme I'm hearing from you, Mark, is like, you're good at viewing the whole situation from like a 30,000-foot view and seeing the moving pieces and seeing where it's going to land in the long term as well. That's just one thing I've had from this conversation, that you're very good at doing that from a— because most people, like you just said, would think, oh, that's an opportunity, I'm gonna get in really quickly and yeah, not fuck the TA or anyone else like that, they're not important, we need to get the deal in, do you mean?

But you, yeah, thinking about all these moving parts together Yeah, and very quickly, that's because I've made every mistake in the book. So, uh, if you don't put yourself in that arena by allowing yourself to make the mistakes and literally putting in those hard hours, then you won't get the opportunity to do it right. So just, yeah, have a bit about you and just, just try it. Try different things that no one else does, you know. That's my tip.

Yeah, cool. I can't believe how quickly this pod's gone. I say this literally with every pod, but the time just flies. Um, thank you so much for joining us, Mark. Little bits of wisdom there, and thank you for sharing your story and, and your wisdom. Yeah, so thanks for joining us, mate. Really appreciate it.

Cheers for the invite, and, uh, hopefully catch up for a beer soon, guys. All right. Yes, cheers.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.