This MD switched to the 180 Model and it transformed his business (Here's why)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Harley Lawrence. Harley is the MD at MRL Consulting Group, and the entire company has been through an insane transformation. They used to have a 65% attrition rate. Recruiters would join the company starting off really excited and looking forward to the future, and 3 to 6 months in they would throw in the towel because they were completely overwhelmed. So they decided to do something different. They gave every consultant the chance to change to a 180 role instead of a 360, and the results were insane. Attrition rates, which were at 65%, dropped down to 10%. Everyone's billing started dramatically increasing, and people were so much happier in their roles. On today's episode, guys, we're going to be talking about why introducing the 180 model has been such a game changer for Harley's company, how Harley goes about splitting commission with a 180 model and the mistakes that he's made along the way. We're also going to be talking about how the 180 model has completely changed how Harley recruits and the types of people he's looking for. Guys, I absolutely love this episode because I don't think enough people are speaking about the 180 model, and I honestly believe that for some people listening to this episode today, it could either completely change your career or it could save your career. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did. And as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. Let's get into it, shall we?

Harley, thank you so much for joining us today, my friend. I'm really looking forward to speaking to you.

Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

Awesome. Yeah, the reason I'm really excited about this one is because this is a slightly different podcast to our usual, um, guests. Normally they're billers, individual billers, um, founders, you know, small teams, but you are the MD of a 55-odd person company, which is, um, really interesting because I guess you have a very different perspective from a lot of the other people that have been on the podcast, and it's always good to get a different perspective. So thank you for coming on, really looking forward to talking about your experience. And we'll start off with the first question, if that's okay with you, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

I think tools, like specific tools, are so sector or role specific that it would be really unhelpful for me to suggest a specific tool. You know, what tool might work for one person might not work for another person in another market. And I still, I'm still a big, big believer in mindset. That is the biggest advantage or disadvantage that most people have and Um, I think probably to butcher a, a quote here, but it was, I think it was a Henry Ford one, or he's at least credited with it. It was like, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. And it's, that's so much it. If you go into a day, it doesn't matter what's happened before, but if you go into it with a positive attitude and you get your mindset right, you're going to be so much more productive and you're going to have so much more success than the person who's coming in going, oh my God, I had a terrible day, this happened, that happened, you know, whatever. And so I think mindset's such a huge thing, and You know, your mindset comes out in every conversation, in every interaction with people. You know, if you're negative, you're down, you're upset, perhaps rightly so, but it does come across and that rubs off onto the people around you, your clients, your candidates, whatever. And I mean, you're going to be less successful. So for me, mindset is just the biggest, best thing, um, really for anyone. And if you can get your mindset right, you've won half the battle really there.

So true. Not surprisingly, about 80 to 90% of the biggest billers that we've ever had, in fact, most people on the podcast have said mindset. And it's really interesting because I think, I don't know, it's like how, if assuming that most people, I'm assuming, well, it has to be statistically that most people don't have the mindset to be a top biller, otherwise they would be a top biller, right? And so I'm going to put, I'm going to ask you a hard question, Harley. What would you say Do you have any tips for people if they don't have the mindset? Do you have any people— any tips on what they can do to improve their mindset or get up to that top biller status? I know it's a very tough question. Maybe you can tell me what you observe from, you know, the top billers in your company and what they do.

Everything is practice. Every single thing you do, every interaction you have, every email you write, every phone call you have is practice. And nothing is the end of the world. Right? So it's very, very easy to get like emotionally attached to a deal, emotionally attached to a client or a candidate or whatever. And when it doesn't go through for whatever reason, it can feel like the end of the world. It really isn't. It is just a lesson. It is a learn. It is an opportunity really for you to make sure you don't make the mistakes you made last time. I have a slightly unpopular phrase because I don't think people like to hear it, but it's always your fault. As a recruiter.

I love that phrase.

Yeah, you know, and I'm sure you've probably had it before, and but it's always your fault. And it's not about it being, oh my God, it's always your fault as a recruiter. It's control the controllables. It's focus on the stuff that you can actually influence. And you know, you get it. And I speak to consultants and they say like, oh, well, how did I know, you know, that candidate was going to get sick and they weren't going to be able to take the job? That can't be my fault. No, no, that isn't your fault. It is your fault you didn't have a backup though. It is your fault you didn't have another candidate in the wings. It is your fault you didn't, you know, do the other pieces there that would have saved that deal. Yes, okay, you might not have placed that candidate, but you could have made that deal by, by controlling, you know, what you can control there.

Yeah.

So that's kind of one of the real main things for, for me.

I love that. That's a really great response. I have to admit, I wasn't expecting that. Just because, yeah, if it was a simple principle, it's take full responsibility for everything that you do. And it's like, that is a brilliant mindset tip because I feel like you can only go up and only get better from that mentality. Yeah, which is really interesting.

Not only that, but when I, when I fully, um, absorbed that comment, it felt more empowering as well because you felt like you actually had more control in life.

Exactly, that's the point. And it's like being at cause versus being at effect. You know, if you feel like everything's affecting you and you're just, you're a victim, you're a passenger, you're never going to be happy, you're never going to be in control, you're never going to be satisfied with the outcomes. Whereas if you go, well, no, I'm, I'm controlling this process, I'm at cause, I'm, I'm the one influencing here, I'm doing everything here, and I've got the power to be able to control this process. Again, you, you kind of won half the battle already because you're then saying, well, I can do it. You're not then going, oh, this is going to happen and that's going to happen, and You know, it's so horrible. You see someone and, you know, they talk about the recruitment roller coaster, but one minute they're like on top of the world, you know, 4 interviews on that nightmare-to-fill role, and the next minute all candidates have been rejected and they're like down in the dumps, and it's like, oh, you know, the worst thing in the world. And it's like, well, you know, you're in control of that, right? Go out there. Yeah, go and get some more. You can get these people. You've proven it already.

Yeah, I think it's also such a— I think it's also down to, call it a skill, or as you say, practice, but that— I mean, it's very familiar what you just said there, which is that emotional roller coaster, which is when something's good, getting really happy about it and getting really— you know, I'm not saying people shouldn't get happy, but I think when you go from one extreme, it's very easy to then go down, if that makes sense. So it's like, if you can always maintain a steady emotional state no matter how good— I think it's, it's especially when something's good, like, just maintain that steady emotional state. I feel like it makes things a lot easier. Because then you kind of, you kind of roll in that same tempo for everything, if that makes sense.

Yeah, we always say like, you know, celebrate the small wins because otherwise it can be a very dull and depressing existence sometimes. Um, but celebrate, celebrate the small wins. Uh, you know, you've got to keep that in check. You can't let that celebration and that positivity blind you to the stuff that you need to be doing as standard practice in, in any of those, you know, recruitment processes. Um, covering buybacks, you know, checking if they've got other opportunities, You know, if it's a relocation job, who have they got to consider? What about, you know, uh, partner, kids, family, sick relatives locally? You know, like there's so many things that you need to be constantly on the top of. If you sit there and you're just on top of the world because someone's got an interview, you're probably going to miss some of those. And yeah, yeah, chances are it'll come back to bite you in the ass later on in the process.

So, um, yeah, definitely, absolutely. Um, we're gonna move on to question 2. Um, Harley, I know that we've asked you multiple questions, but on the sheet, as it were, um, So it's interesting because you made a significant shift. You were an individual biller doing about $350K to $400K, and then you switched to team-based billing, which resulted in $1 to $2 million in revenue. So that's quite a big shift. Can you tell us, you know, walk us through that transformation and what prompted the change?

It was kind of opportunity, if I'm honest. It was opportunity internally for me. I wanted to develop more. I wanted to run a team. We, you know, I'd had a couple of decent years, 350, 400, you know, relatively solid numbers as an individual contributor, but we were leaving quite a lot on the table in terms of business, in terms of opportunity within those accounts. We had previously put in place like an account management model as well, which would allow people to come in and focus entirely on delivery. So kind of removing the scary business development angle of a 360 role and just focusing themselves on delivery. And moving, kind of managing that team. I inherited a few people that I started managing and then started feeding them jobs, and they had their own vacancies and things like that. But then what it allowed us to do was then to hire a few account managers on that team, put them onto specific accounts, target them. And it's kind of like the, you know, the division of labor thing. You know, you can get so much more done with multiple people focusing on the same objective. And it was, you know, you, you see it so often, and especially, I'll be very honest, you especially see it within, uh, superstar billers. They have a few really decent accounts that they've probably built themselves. You know, there's always the story of someone who's inherited a million pound account, fine, but you know, the people that are doing, you know, 3, 4, 500 grand from an account, they're doing really well, but they're kind of like arms around it, it's mine, no one else is allowed to play with my toys. And it's like It's really silly because they're never going to be able to see those accounts to their full potential. And they are— they're doing a brilliant job. They're bringing in huge revenue for the business. You know, they're a great recruiter, no doubt whatsoever. But there is so much missed opportunity there that they could unlock if they got some people focusing on delivery or resources and researchers kind of working alongside them, feeding them more candidates or something like that. And I mean, look, we're all in the business of making money here, right? Surely they should make as much as possible and not sit there and harbor accounts with huge, great potential. So we, we saw that, that kind of— it happened naturally. I would love to say it was some massively strategic move that we made, but it was, you know, I inherited a team, we started to develop more business than I could realistically cover. Um, and yeah, it was, it, it was kind of, um, it was the best decision I ever made, definitely, to go down that route. And it certainly unlocks a lot of potential within those accounts. And then, you know, the proof is there from going doing 400-ish K, 350-400K on my own, to then going to, you know, 1.2, 1.5, 1.7 via, you know, generated by me initially from a business development point of view, but then delivered on by the wider team. You know, it's, it's a fantastic change and so good for the business. It's enabled huge amounts of growth for us.

Yeah, really interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. I wonder how many— it makes me think how many companies are as you say, leaving money on the table because big billers are kind of wrapping their arms around clients and wanting to keep everything for themselves.

Um, and yes, opportunity loss, isn't it? And, you know, it's not, it's not to say anything against a lot of big billers. Some— I've met some incredible recruiters, and some of the numbers that people talk about, I'm just like, wow, you can't ever sleep. I don't know how you do it. Like, it's really, really impressive. But, but think about it, you know, one thing I would say is think about it from the business point of view. Are you really doing everything that you can for that business, right? They're paying your wages, they're paying your comms every month, or, you know, it's your own business perhaps, you know. Would you be assisted? Would you be able to achieve more, build more, do more with more people focusing on the same goal— account development, account penetration, whatever that might be? Um, that's such a huge thing, and it was a lesson that we, that we learned relatively early on.

Interesting. Did you find a common theme as to what the, the best way into penetrating these accounts were? Was it like a particular type of role that you moved on to, or was it just more of the same role that you, that you, you know, got more hands-on, hands-on deck to fill? Like, how did you— how did that transition happen from like, okay, top biller, um, hoarding this one account to then penetrating to do more, more business with this one company?

Um, I think it's kind of curing pain points, and then that, that was always be our route in, you know. What are they— where is the house on fire? What's really causing them pain at the moment, right? What can't they feel? What's a nightmare? You know, that kind of stuff, and then solve that problem for them. And you tend to find if you do that and you do it well and you build relationships with people along the way, the accounts tend to open up quite nicely for you. And I think sometimes, you know, recruiters are probably guilty of like, oh, we did that and we did that, and it's almost like we, we had one over on the clients. Like, you have to remember, you're a partner, you're providing a really strong value-added service. And yeah, okay, some recruiters billing a million, 2 million, 3 million, you might be enabling 50 million, 100 a million in revenue for that business. Yeah, you're a partner ultimately. And yeah, the quicker you get to that way of thinking, the better, the better you will be long term. Um, love that.

Interesting. So yeah, asking about pain points and saying, look, where else are you struggling with the business? Um, were there typical areas that you found businesses were struggling when you said, hey, where are you struggling at the moment? Did you find a common theme between like, oh yeah, you know, were there particular areas of the business? I know this is quite a broad question.

No, no, it's— I always did— I, I did a lot of commercial hiring, so I did a lot of sales marketing and some kind of senior management and things like that. But I kind of, I did end up with a bit of a mix of roles that I was covering because that's where the client needed help at that one time. And then the whole kind of land and expand thing. So there wasn't a specific area other than that I really enjoyed sales and marketing recruitment.

Awesome.

I'm curious, I want to go back to that. Kind of natural transition where you started bringing in more consultants to do delivery. One of the aha moments, uh, that sounds like you had was like, oh, we could be generating so much more from each account. Was there any other things that kind of surprised you as you brought in more delivery consultants? Is there anything that kind of happened along the way that you're like, oh, I didn't realize this, or it changed this? Or is there anything that comes to mind? Again, quite a broad question.

I'm putting you on the spot, Holly.

When you— no, that's fine. When you're interviewing 360 consultants, you're looking for almost this like perfect mix of business development, account management, you know, entrepreneurial spirit, will go and pick up the phone to anyone and do this and do that. And, and so you're almost kind of eternally hiring within that image. When you start to then say, well, actually, I don't want this person to do any business development, I don't want them to pick up the phone to 1,000 VPs next week and, you know, pitch their heart out. It's— you really start to consider a much broader candidate base for your own roles internally, right? Because you think, well, this person would be an amazing account manager, whereas previously we'd be interviewing people and we'd be going, oh, really not sure of their business development abilities, really think they'll, you know, they'll scream a bit if they've got to pick up a the, the phone calls. But actually, you, you go, well, that's a positive. We don't want this person. Now all of a sudden, that candidate that yesterday you will have rejected for a role in your recruitment business, you're then going, ah, brilliant, you'd be amazing for that thing that I really, you know, that account management role or that delivery function or whatever.

That's, yeah, it's really interesting. It just shows that it goes to show, you know, you need so much more, I guess, so much more there's a much wider array of skills you need for a really good 360 biller, right? And I'm guessing hiring for that must be really difficult.

It's impossible. It's impossible because you're looking, you know, by virtue, those two roles, they are— the 360 aspect is— well, the BD aspect is hunter. The account management aspect is farmer. So you're looking for a farming hunter or a hunting farmer. Like, come on, man. You know, you're trying to find a good hunter. Or you're trying to find a good farmer, you know, don't make it hard for yourself.

Um, yeah, it's interesting. Sorry, Holly, go ahead, mate.

I was just saying, you like using people, using people to their— where their best place, putting them in the right role, you know. It's the kind of every horse has a stable analogy. If you— if, if I said to you guys, you guys are clearly good at running great podcasts, right? If I said to you, right, okay, go out and clatter out 5,000 newbie BD calls, you might sit there and go, oh yeah, not really my thing. But if I— but then if I said to that, that guy doing, you know, however many BD calls, right, go and run a really great recruitment podcast. Yeah, okay, they're probably going to be like a fish out of water, right? And so it's, it's about, I think, using people where they're most comfortable and where they can, where they can develop, where they're, um, where they're going to be most successful, right?

Love that.

Absolutely.

Sorry, Ben, I just want to ask a quick follow-up one because, uh, it was just interesting that, um, you know, when you're interviewing delivery consultants, that you're looking for a different set of skills. I'm curious, are there any attributes or things you're now looking for, Harley, that other people can kind of learn from of what you find makes a good delivery consultant? Is there, is there anything particular?

We always go down, we always go down track record, right? So we always look at, um, what people have done previously. And we, we interview and we recruit quite a few people who've never been in recruitment before.

Wow.

Because we— I don't want to have to help unlearn bad habits that they've been taught in other recruitment businesses.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but then, you know, there's a lot of transferable skills. So it's, you know, when have you gone above and beyond? When have you built a really strong relationship? You know, I tend to find that people who have worked in hospitality tend to do quite well in a lot of account management recruitment functions, potentially BD too, but, but specifically kind of the account management functions, because they're kind of like You think about it, you know, your waiter, your waitress, whatever, they have to build a relationship quickly with you. They have to understand you. They have to do all those kind of things. You know, there's hints of transferable skills. They're not the finished article. They're going to need a lot of training, but there's these kind of hints of transferable skills that would make them really good account managers. Can they build a quick relationship? Can they get on well with people? You know, do they have a nice tone of voice when they're engaging with these people? I'm sure probably ring true with a lot of the recruiters who would listen to this, but you know, the whole, uh, your customer's always right thing, even though we, when we know they're absolutely not right, you know, um, just if you've had to deal with that before and you've had, you know, unhappy customers in whatever, whatever walk of life you've been in, being able to kind of, you know, smile and get through it is a really, really good position to have come from because you don't have to learn that skill, you know, that's already in you, you've already got that. Um, and so yeah, we, we started to consider candidates from very, very different backgrounds. Um, it was fascinating. It was a good one. Um, lots of other areas of recruitment as well we, we hired, uh, from, but, but we would always be open to seeing people from outside of that.

Really fascinating.

Reminds me of another chap we had on the podcast early on in our journey actually, and he only hired— well, I say only— he predominantly hired, uh, like gym fanatics. So he looked at people who were really consistent, who were almost like borderline obsessed for going to the gym, because a lot of those skills were like transferable, or those habits or characteristics.

Yeah.

Um, which is really interesting. And he said it worked really well. It was like really consistent.

Everyone knew— there's no right or wrong way to do it. If that works and that worked for that person, fantastic, crack on, keep doing it, right? But there's, you know, there's so many different ways, and I think that's kind of the beautiful thing about recruitment. There are so many different ways to do it. There's so many different to hire. There's so many different ways to do that, and all you've got to do is find a way that works for yourself. Do that, you've kind of cracked the code.

Um, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, that's, that's part of it. But I know, I know some people that are like, oh, we'll only hire university grads with a first, we'll only do this, we'll only do that. And I just, I think, fine, if that works for you, that's okay. But I just can't help but think, how many great people have you missed? You know, yeah, okay, you might hired some brilliant people. There's thousands, millions of them out there. But how many great people have you missed because of your requirements that you put on yourself? No one else is putting that there. You run the business, right?

So yeah, so true, man. So true.

I did a post the other day, uh, after I got off the phone with you actually, Harley, about, um, yeah, about the 360 model and 180 model.

Yeah.

And God, it blew up. I got like two completely— literally two completely different pools.

Yeah.

You know, the diehard 360 people and the diehard 180 people. And so this is, you know, a big reason or a big part of the, um, reason I wanted to speak to you and why I love that you're on the pod is because I think more people should be talking about the 180 model, especially after your experience. And you got— 10 years ago, your company moved away from the traditional 360 model. I know you still have 360 recruiters, but you've adapted it. What were the key indicators that show that this model wasn't working? I know you've talked about some of them, but Were there any kind of stark, obvious signs? We're like, okay, there's something going on here that needs changing. What were the kind of key things that were going wrong?

There was, there was kind of 3 main things. It was the ridiculously high attrition rate, and it was actually, it was my CEO David Stone, he came up with the, with the model, and they, uh, and also some of the other management team, like I think Enrico, one of our directors, managing director in Europe as well. So he, um, they came up with this, this point where they were saying about 65% attrition, right? And, and we were saying, this is bonkers, this is absolutely crazy. And we was speaking with a number of other recruitment business owners at the time, and they were saying, yeah, that's about right. And it was just like, guys, you don't think this is mad? Um, so it was that ridiculously high attrition rate. Then, I mean, attributed to that is the huge amount of wasted time and money, right? You're gonna hire someone, you're gonna try them for 3 to 6 months, it's not going to work out, they're not going to have brought enough revenue in, they're not going to bring any bringing you in. The only guarantee is that we will have paid wages every month. You will have wasted that time and money. You'd have probably spent hours and hours and hours with them in training rooms and, you know, doing all this kind of stuff. And then what have you got to show for it at the end of it? Nothing. Maybe a few updated reports on the database, right? And, and then the third thing, and kind of the most important and the most crushing thing, was seeing recruiters who at interview, they were bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. They were you know, I'll come in and make 100 cold calls a day, not got a problem. You know, they're full of hope, they're full of, you know, full of energy. And then watching these people get crushed because they're put in a model which just doesn't suit them, it was just like, this is nonsense. You know, this kind of has to change. It's ridiculous. I mean, maybe we did it wrong. Maybe, I don't know, maybe we did 360 wrong. I don't know. But I just—

you didn't.

But yeah, I think it's part of the story across the industry, isn't it? Yeah, well, I mean, everyone was saying the same kind of thing. Oh yeah, we might be lucky if half of them make it, or, you know, that's crazy, two-thirds of them will fail. And I'm just like, why? This doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that? Um, and, and I think of it this way: if you, if you said, right, guys coming in for an interview, we're going to tell him that there's a 65% chance that in 3 months' time will no longer be here, how likely is that person to really want to go for the role? But that is the truth, right? And so if you don't tell people that, you're kind of almost lying to them, right? Which is never a good thing in an interview. You never want to do that. It's just gonna just waste everyone's time. So yeah, it was mainly that kind of huge attrition rate, wasted time and money, and then just seeing these potentially very, very promising recruiters fall out and think, oh my God, I hate recruitment, terrible, terrible, uh, you know, terrible practice, would never want to do that. And, um, yeah, I think I've heard people say, you know, they compare estate agents to recruiters, and I'm just, um, terrible comparison to make. But it's probably because so many companies are pushing this 360 model and trying to force people to be something that they're not. You know, when you dig into why some people don't particularly like recruitment, oh, I had to make 1,000 cold calls, I had to do this, I had to Okay, you might have been a better delivery person then. It doesn't mean recruitment was wrong, it might mean the model that you were in was wrong.

Yeah, and, and so go ahead, Sam. No, I'm just gonna—

and this might be an obvious question, but I'm just curious from your perspective, Holly, because you probably saw it firsthand, what were the specific elements about the 360 that just caused so many people to get either overwhelmed or just not liking their job anymore? Were there specific things and scenarios that you saw?

Well, there was a huge amount of imposter syndrome. So we work in quite technical markets generally, and I think that bringing someone in who hasn't got experience in that market, doesn't know that tech in any way, you know, they've never been a developer, they've never been an engineer, they don't know these terms, and then saying, right, jump on the phone to this vice president and convince him that you need to, you know, they need to work with us. It's 'But I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.' And so people end up with this imposter syndrome, and it ends up being a very, very uncomfortable, uh, you know, call for them, practice for them. So, um, we see that, saw that quite a lot. That was, that was pretty, pretty big.

Interesting. And I'm guessing starting off at delivery, they're more— they're speaking to candidates more, and so they're learning the industry in a much more friendly, polite, just nice environment.

Bring an engineer, get them to talk about themselves. Nobody does that. You know, they're the kind of people that— I mean this with the greatest of respects— so they're the kind of people who go home to their, their partners and go, oh darling, you know, I've worked on this amazing thing today, or oh, you know, I worked on this amazing thing today. And their, their partners just completely glaze over and they're like, yeah, can we just talk about something else?

You know, um, so I feel like now that we speak I feel like, and now that we're speaking out loud, and this is quite a bold statement, but I feel like every recruiter should start in a delivery function because you're speaking to candidates, you're learning about the market, you're learning about the best companies, you're learning about the latest tech, you're learning about so much before you jump in. It makes— yeah, and the best recruiters say that as well. The best billers, biggest billers we've already spoken to, say they lead with— well, these are 360 billers, a lot of these, but they lead with the, with candidate information first to then pitch to the client, which makes so much sense.

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb with it and I'm going to say if we did that, you'd end up with more consultants and less blaggers. And generally, yeah, yeah, probably have a better, uh, reputation in the market because there's less people going, yeah, we'll fill it, yeah, I could do that. Yeah, yeah, a million of them.

Uh, but the problem with that is it takes a lot of time, doesn't it? And patience and energy, and you might not make as much money in the short term but you will in the long term, which is interesting.

A lot more in the long term because you really understand that, you know, that recruitment mindset and the recruitment, you know, how to actually work that job, how to fill that role. And yeah, you don't go out there as a business development person and, you know, your client's looking for that absolute purple unicorn, five-legged sheep, whatever analogy you want to throw at it, right? And go, yeah, we'll find 20 of those, we've got a database full of them. Whereas your delivery consultant who's been trying to find those people for the last 2 months, 3 months, would probably enter that business development call with a little bit more consultative approach and say, well, they're very difficult to find. You know that yourself. That's why we're having this conversation. We'll do everything we can. We'll show you what's out there. And if we have to change the brief a bit, we change the brief a bit.

Yeah.

But I think that, you know, there's an awful lot of blagging and kind of underpromising and about underdelivering, overpromising out there, which is—

yeah, the other thing, uh, lads, that I just think about, and this is why I love the 180 model, is because, um, you can hone in on your craft. And when I meet people who hone in and are able to get really good at one thing, that is— that really causes a lot of happiness and like contentment within your work. And I really think you're able to do that with a lot more higher success when you're focusing on one thing and you're not trying to juggle lots of different things. So that's just one thing that I really love about the 180. Have you seen that as well, Harley, within your, um, within your business?

This— I mean, working very few job titles is a really, really good way, I think, to encourage that. Um, and look, I mean, there are literally millions and millions of candidates out there. I, I always say to recruiters when they join, the biggest issue that they've got is they don't know anyone and no one knows right? And they need to change that as quickly as humanly possible. Well, the easiest way to do that is to corner off a part of that market, people with a few job titles, and just get speaking to them. You're going to get referrals, you're going to get references, you're going to get connections, you're going to get, oh yeah, I know you, you were speaking to one of my colleagues the other day. And the smaller you can get that pool of candidates, within reason, you don't want 5 people, right? But the smaller you can get that pool of candidates, the quicker you can get through it and the quicker you can get no. And the quicker you can get yourself relevant, I guess. Whereas if you try and cover everything by everyone, I— it, it just seems like you're setting yourself up for failure, or you're playing the game on hard mode, right? Yeah. Um, yeah. And yeah, I see that quite a lot.

Interesting. It kind of, it kind of leads perfectly on to the— you kind of already answered part of it, which is that you dropped from— you said you're 65% attrition down to 10%, which is insane. Like, that is unbelievable. Um, what did you notice? Like, you must have noticed some, like, a completely different energy in the business and how people were working and the happiness. What, like, how did it drop to 10%? What was the main reason? Like, what were you noticing within people's day-to-day that, that changed after you shifted this model, do you think?

Um, one, the, the kind of one of the main things that we saw, I think people were generally happier. Because they're not being forced to do something they didn't really want to do and they weren't, you know, they weren't hardwired to be good at or want to do, if that kind of makes any sense. And so I tend to find people that were, you know, generally happier within their roles, which then makes a more positive working environment in any, you know, sales office, recruitment office is a beautiful place to be when the numbers are great, right? But it's also, if the numbers aren't great, which let's be honest, they aren't from time to time, um, if you've got that negative market environment and you're trying to force people to do stuff that they don't really want to do and they're not predispositioned to go, oh yeah, I really want to make these calls, I really want to do this, you're kind of doubling down on the negativity. Whereas if you can remove that, even in a tough market, you can still get people focusing on the stuff that they want to do, stuff that they're good at, and stuff that I think they'd be more successful at. So that was, was something that I think was quite, quite interesting. What we also found, um, and we're actually kind of going through a bit of a process of this at the moment, is you get an awful lot more account development because your traditional business development superstar, right, the person out there who, you know, craves shiny new things— new client, new logo, new this, new that— They don't really care what the hiring manager is doing for their holiday. They don't really care a lot of the time, you know, where the kids go to school or, you know, anything like that. They're more interested in new client, new opportunity, new business. And so getting those people and going, right, well, you've got to build a really strong relationship with this hiring manager because you're gonna, you're gonna work with them for the next 2 years. It's, again, it's kind of like it's taking them out of their lane a little bit. It's it's focusing on something that they're not really wanting to do again. It's just trying to, you know, make the best of people and get them to be happiest. So that was a huge thing.

Yeah, it's really interesting.

So go ahead.

No, it was— we enabled more of that account development because of that as well, because then people were actually interested in developing accounts, were tasked with developing accounts, not just the 360 who sat there with their arms around it going, it's mine, mine, mine, no one else is allowed to talk to them. You know, that's one of the things. One of the things that I would say if anyone's kind of thinking of going down that model and splitting out from 360 to account management, you have to get your splits right. So there are a lot of businesses out there and they go, well, you know, the business development people, they they're the really valuable ones to us. I've heard businesses say that, so we'll give them 75% of the fee and we'll give the, the account manager the resource of 25% of the fee. Um, and I've seen, seen it the other way around where they go, oh well, you know, once you've opened the account, there's no more work to do. So it's, you know, like 80% to the account manager and 20% to the business development person. I think you've got to get your splits right and you've got to, to work out what's best for the business and, and really what you want to achieve from doing that. And it will be different for every business, so I'm not going to sit here and say, ah, you know, the best split is this or the best split is that. Uh, we got it wrong first time around. We, we absolutely got it wrong.

Um, what, what, what was the percentage that you got it wrong at, if you don't mind me asking, Harley? And what is the current percentage that you've— that's worked for your business?

Um, we're currently at kind of a 50/50 split, but it, it's slightly more complex than that, and it's about who opened the account versus who pulled the vacancy, uh, then versus who's doing the resourcing and who's doing the process management. So it's kind of split in four, and then depending on your involvement in that process depends on how much of that you would get, right?

Okay.

Um, we got it wrong the first time around. We got it wrong because we were splitting commission as opposed to splitting revenue. And I think that was a big learn for us because, like a lot of recruitment businesses out there, we have a tiered com structure where, you know, the more you bill, the more as a percentage you earn from it. What it meant was that the people who really needed the jobs passed to them to work because they hadn't billed loads, they weren't going to get past the jobs because the person passing them the vacancies was going to get a lower split because they were, they were going to earn lower commission, right? So what it did was it overloaded the people who were doing well, and then we ended up missing more opportunity. Yeah, because, you know, they were already doing well, they were already really busy, they were already filling loads of roles, they don't really need more vacancies. And so it's like, oh, put another one on there and another one on there and another one on there. So it needs some relatively close management. And I would always, I would always recommend a revenue split. That means you can reward people according to their effort involved in the process, and it also means that, you know, you don't tie people together from a commission standpoint. It means that you can let them sit separately and—

yeah, interesting—

advise them in, in that way on their commission decisions.

Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot more sense. That's interesting. And I'm guessing— I know it's always an experiment, but I'm guessing the 50/50 split has been a lot more successful, um, so far, right?

We've— yeah, the way that it, the way that it normally works with our account managers, they actually end up getting a 75% split. And the reason being is because they are then going— they are then account managers, they are managing, penetrating and they are therefore responsible for generating more revenue in those accounts, right?

Yeah.

The business development person who opened the door originally 2 years ago, every time that person puts a deal through, they get a 25% split of the revenue. Uh, people sat there going, well, I'm going to encourage you to get through that account because every time you make a placement, I'm gonna make more money.

That's working great. Great model. Uh, really interesting. Um, yeah, it's a win-win, isn't it? And I love that these account managers are encouraged to go out and, you know, win more business within accounts. I think that's just like, it's a no-brainer.

Um, and which is so rare in recruitment offices, encourages like collaboration for each other to want to build more, doesn't it? Which is again a very rare thing in a recruitment office.

This, this company, and you know, I'm fortunate enough to have been here for 12, 12-ish years now, 12 and a bit years. Um, the, the company is 27 years old. It was built because of petty bureaucracy red tape. And, you know, quite frankly, the kind of bullshit that you see in a lot of recruitment businesses of, you know, hiding good candidate CVs in your top drawer and, you know, calling your colleagues' clients when they're off sick so you can pick up something. And, you know, and it's just this kind of like horrible backstabby culture that you do see in a lot of recruitment businesses, unfortunately. And that's why this business came to be. David, our CEO, built the business because of exactly that reason.

Um, interesting.

You know, we were doing, doing great work, doing good business, and having some fun whilst we did it, but there was just so much bullshit. It was just so much nonsense in the way. And it's just like, you know, you're all on the same team, guys. You are all fighting for the same cause. The more everyone does here, the more extravagant and fancy all of your, you know, sales kickoffs and your, your Christmas parties and things like that are going to be, the more everyone's going to earn. Like, everyone wins. You shouldn't be fighting against each other. You've got all your competitors to fight against. Let's concentrate on them, shall we?

Yeah, that's the most important thing, Harley, is you need a system that encourages encourages that as well. Because if it doesn't encourage that, that, that drives the behavior, doesn't it? So changing the system, which you have successfully, will encourage so much better behavior.

Yeah, it's completely structural. And it's also, you know, from a management standpoint, there's a lot of it where, you know, managers kind of see that kind of stuff and turn a blind eye to it, which is— you've, you've got to stomp it out. You really do. Because it, it really— it's infectious within your organization, and I think it spreads, and it's a really horrible thing interesting to, you know, to see most of the recruiters that I interview for the business here. They are, you know, pretty pissed off at whatever's going on within their current organization. And you hear certain things and, you know, splits and revenue being taken away from them and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And most of the— what is it they say? People don't leave bad companies, they leave bad bosses. It's the bosses who have allowed that to happen. It's the bosses to, you know, let that be. And then ultimately they lose good people off the back of it. So, you know, it's, it's in everyone's interest to do that, but, you know, perhaps some people don't.

Yeah, really interesting. I'm, I would love to move on to the next question, which is, um, you mentioned that modern recruitment is moving towards projects like market mapping and talent analysis rather than traditional placements. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that, Harley?

I think there's always going to be a place for contingent or retained recruitment in any way, right? People are always going to struggle with a role that they're, you know, struggling to hire a role, and you'll always be able to charge a fee for filling that one role. But I think one of the, one of the key points that I've seen— I've seen this from big clients that we've done huge amounts of work with is the transition away from just one role, one fee, one role, one fee, one role, one fee, repeat, rinse and repeat, keep going, do as many as you can, and talking about more value-add, long-term solutions which cover more than one position or allow a kind of further and deeper collaboration with your clients. Um, I hear so many recruiters complain, I think wrongly, about talent acquisition teams within businesses. And they're like, you know, automatically they're like butting heads with them, and they're like, oh, you know, our success is their failure, and all, you know, all these kind of stuff that you hear. And I think, well, they're not going anywhere. They've hired these talent acquisitions for a reason, and it's because you've been charging them millions and millions in fees, right? So What can you do? What can you do to differentiate yourself? What can you do to develop your business? And I think it's value adds like that, like talent maps, like salary surveys, like, you know, other kind of value-added services here which ultimately speed up their internal teams. You know, some of our, some of our best clients, we have very, very strong relationships with talent acquisition teams within the business. I think for too long recruiters have kind of seen them as the enemy, which is just nonsense really. But, um, you know, they do the same job as you, they just do it for your client, right? You, you, you're fighting the same fight and you're trying to get the same qualified brilliant people into their business. Um, you can— I mean, there is a lot of people out there who'll go, oh, you know, we'll try and replace the talent acquisition team, we'll try and do this. But I think you need to differentiate your offering and And yeah, make yourself unshakable. Yeah, that's pretty interesting because otherwise they'll build that team out, you'll be replaced.

Really interesting.

Can you, just for a simple mind like me, um, Harley, would you mind giving me an example of— so a project, so like let's assume that you maybe you could go back to past clients you've done this for, what would be an example of a project for market mapping and then a project for talent analysis? Can you give me an idea of what that looks like and how you're offering that or packaging that to clients?

So certain clients of ours might— or certain client of ours was looking to hire candidates in a specific, um, specific technical field. So it was a specific kind of engineering that they were doing. And so what we did was we, we, um, put together a market mapping survey where basically we we listed every, every candidate in Europe with that skill set, right? And then we started to use that data to say, well, you know, 47% of those candidates are based in Germany. So if you want to hire this headcount, you should put most of them in Germany and, you know, 23% of them in France and we've got 12% of them in the UK. And again, it starts to show where this, this talent is and physically we actually physically mapped the talent for the client as well. We created kind of a heat map of Europe to say, well, your hotspots are in southern Germany around Munich, and, you know, other hubs are down in the south of France, and there's some in Paris and some in London and, you know, other things there. So that was something that we did. And I mean, I can't remember what we priced it at now. It was, you know, it wasn't bad business by any means. It was, you know, $40,000, $50,000 or something like that. But it depends and then your value is not in a bum on a seat, yeah, then they can look at that and go, well, from that market info, and we'll supply them with a list of candidates and contact details, and we'll qualify the candidates and sell them in if they want to do extras and stuff like that. But our value then is not, well done, we got that one bum on that one seat, here's your invoice for for 10, 20K, Mr. Client. It then turns out, well, hang on a sec, you might be able to hire 200 people from this assignment. We've charged you 50K, 100K, name your price. At that point, your cost per hire is significantly lower. We've done market mapping, talent analysis, and then the client can take it on from there. They've got a talent acquisition team, right? They can, they can contact people, they can map, they can, you know, run a process, they can do all of this other stuff. But us as an external, it ends up more being a kind of professional services sell than it does a, I'm a recruitment consultant, I'm just, I'm just trying to send you CVs.

Yeah, I can just imagine receiving that as a client, how much more valuable you now become as a service. If I know you can recruit, but you can also give me, you know, really valuable data that's essentially going to affect my business in the medium to short to medium and long term. I think that's really, really interesting just as a positioning perspective.

Yeah, it's exactly that. And, um, there are a lot of businesses out there who specialize in, in just doing that anyway, right? And, you know, don't do recruitment in that way. They just do these kind of more research-based services. But I think, um, ultimately our goal is to, to do business long term. Is to build relationships, is to add value, is to differentiate ourselves to our competitors. And that's a really, really neat way to do it. And there are loads and loads of others, but, you know, we don't want to give away too many secrets, right?

Um, yes you do, Harley. Yes you do.

And quick one— oh, sorry, Ben.

Sorry, I was going to say, um, did you— is that— it was the talent analysis included in that as well, Harley? That I— that was— is that mainly market mapping, or was the talent?

And we was, we was, um, we were sending like a full list of, um, candidates, companies, locations, all that kind of stuff, where they, where they were based, what skills they had, level of experience, all that kind of stuff.

Um, cool, interesting.

But we also, um, we were then on a kind of another project. We did, we did a kind of similar thing, but we also did the first pass qualification as well. So we were qualifying them against 8 or so set criteria, you know, like basic stuff— nationalities, right to work, you know, location, salary, that kind of, you know, level of experience, that kind of stuff. Um, and then really selling the opportunity to work at that, at that business. But then at the point of introduction, we're hands-off. That's it.

Yeah, interesting. So, so my commercial head's going on in terms of value. I'm like, oh, That's, that's insane. I absolutely— but then I might— I know the pessimistic recruiter who might be listening to this might be like, that sounds amazing, but I've just handed over like potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds in revenue. Do you see it in the same way? I'm guessing you don't. Like, how would you, how would you respond to the pessimistic recruiter that might be saying something like that?

What I would say is, if you're convinced you're going to go in and you're going to make more money making contingent or retained placements than you will do for pricing that project, be my guest.

Interesting.

Because at the same time, there's companies pitching them these kinds of services and they're not going to need you. So be cautious, right? You know, fair enough, you might do and you might be right and you might be really good for a couple of years and make a, you know, a load of placements with them. Fine, no problems at all. But there are lots of other businesses out there pitching them these other services and doing other things. That if you aren't careful, you will end up being either very, very easily shakable and you'll lose the client, or you might end up being a bit kind of surplus to requirements in, you know, further down the line. And, and so I, you know, there is always going to be the place for individual hires and, you know, even multiple hires on a contingent basis or a retained basis. I'm not saying that it, you know, recruitment's dead, we've all got to change our ways. But I'm just saying, think outside the box a little bit.

Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's a great idea.

Yeah, what I see with this value-add stuff is that you're becoming almost irreplaceable to the client. It's like, you know, you are becoming so valuable that getting rid of you is a really difficult choice, as opposed to, uh, you know, as you said, Harley, if you're just offering one thing, there's quite a lot of people that offer that one thing, and so you now become quite replaceable unless you do, you know, an outstanding service that other people can't touch.

Um, you know, there's a lot of businesses out there, is it 45,000 recruitment businesses, something like that, in the UK? We hear these stats banded around all the time. Okay, yeah, you've probably got 45,000 competitors in the UK, but you've certainly got some, um, and they're only recruitment businesses. So there is a lot of other people doing the same thing. Realistically, if you want to make yourself irreplaceable long term, or look at it— that's almost looking at it from a really negative point of view. How are you going to build a partnership with your client? Make yourself really valuable, right? Don't worry about being replaced. Worry about what value you can add, right? Spin it completely in a positive way and help the client, right? They're paying you ultimately, you know, your wages, right? Help them, help them do whatever you can.

Yeah, yeah, it's a really great point.

Build really, really strong relationships off the back of it. And what happens is these people, they leave, they go to other businesses, and all of a sudden you've got a brand new client pop up. Oh, can we do one of those market mapping things? Can we do one of those, you know, interesting projects that you did for my last company? Yes, of course.

Cool. Interesting. I was actually just about to ask that. So what have you noticed from, from when you started introducing these new project-based kind of assignments? What have you noticed from like either conversion rates or referrals or just business in general, like past that point? Have you, have you noticed a big Harley, with business and revenue?

No real difference from before. It's just what, what people ask for changes, right? We've done tons and tons of business over the years off the back of referrals, off the back of, oh, you did a great project for us when I was at my last company. I've started up at this new place. Can you, can you help us, you know, find these people again? We've done tons and tons of business off the back of that. But expanding your offering, differentiating your offering means that they're not just going to come to you and say, 'Hey, we've got all of these live headcount.' They might come to you and say, 'Hey, we're thinking about opening a European office. Where should we do it?' Or another office here. 'Can we do a talent map? Can we, can we have a look at something like that?' You know, or, 'We're really struggling in this area, you know, can you, can you help us there?' And it means that you're— and again, it's kind of think outside the box. A recruiter is great as long as there's live signed-off vacancies where they can go external and pay an agency fee, right? What about if you had the opportunity as a recruiter to sell at multiple other times in their business, right? When they're doing, uh, when they're doing some, um, some fact-finding, when they're doing some, you know, free investment surveys, when they're doing other, other bits of business here. Well, all of a sudden, that revenue that you think you've lost by not placing those 15 people into that company, you've gained elsewhere. By helping them in another area of their business. Right. So it's— you don't really lose and you provide a lot more value for it. And so you do get a lot of referrals, a lot of, a lot of requests from them.

What was interesting about what you said, Harley, as well as that, and I'm guessing this has happened to you a few times, is you're now entering the conversation at an earlier point as well. And so you can now have a closer look on what's going on in their business. And so you're probably more likely to enter in at recruitment phase, I'm guessing. Because you've already started at the beginning phase with market mapping and you've already proven yourself.

You've already proven that you can do really high quality work. You're already proven you really know what you're talking about. You've provided them a physical map of every candidate they want to hire in Europe, for God's sake. They can't say you don't know your market. It's written down on paper, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really interesting.

It kind of changes the dynamic.

Really.

And I guess it is like a— it's like a try before you buy kind of, although you're— they're paying for you. It's like before you invest a million pounds in hiring 20, 30 people, you know, invest a small chunk up front and then, you know, so we can prove to you that we know what we're talking about. So it makes perfect sense. I actually think now that we're speaking, if more recruiters had a try before you buy method, something to get their feet wet and to demonstrate value up front, they'll win a lot more business. I, I'm completely convinced by that.

Like, right before you buy— I've been working in contract recruitment for years you know, what do they say, uh, you know, a trial day or, uh, you know, a soft start or something like that where, you know, we'll get them in, they'll do a day's work. If you like them, give them a 6-month contract. If you don't, out the door, don't worry about it, we'll get someone else. Um, yeah, yeah, that's been there forever. We're just, we're just looking at it from a different point of view and, yeah, making it slightly different, uh, slightly different offering.

Exactly. Um, I have to— we've— we're already past the allotted time, Harley. No, no, it's not it's— we just— this is, this is the sign of a good podcast because you have a lot of value to add and it's brilliant. Um, I'd like to just cover one or two more questions, Sam, um, with your permission. Harley, you okay for time?

Fine, not a problem.

Awesome, awesome. Um, I just want to go into, um, I'd love to go into— because I guess you have a very Remember when I— I remember on the pre-call when I asked you about the top billers in your company, I said, what are your top billers doing differently? And I think there were two. I think the, the main thing, or what— oh, there was a couple of things you said. If I can't remember exactly what it is, forgive me, but one of them was volume. You said they just did more, you know, they were working harder or doing more calls. Um, can you just tell me from your perspective, if you could remind me, from your perspective, looking at these top billers in your company Um, what are they doing differently from the rest? Like, what are their activity? What's their mindset like? How are they actually differentiating in terms of what they're doing from the other people in the business?

Yeah, I mean, you know, the first one is obvious. They do more, right? They do do more. They're very organized. They manage the time effectively. They do more. They literally achieve more. They spend more time on the phone. They send more CVs. They get more interviews and make more placements. Simple.

Interesting, right?

It's a bit of a cop-out answer, that though, because you can always do all. Where they are differentiating themselves is they are normally working on a relatively small either candidate base or market area, right? So they've got their specialisms, they're niched down, they're not a generalist. And secondly, they're really good at building relationships. That's one of the big things. And they spend a huge amount of time on the phone doing it. And if anybody tells you they can build a relationship via email, they're lying or they're very naive, in my opinion. And so I think one of the other points that you wanted to kind of talk about was about the digital touch points and things like that. And that's great, but it's never going to replace time on the phone, or even better, face to face. Um, and so that's something that I see a lot of our top billers do, any top billers that I've interviewed in the past or I've spoken to in the past. And I know, you know, a few people in the recruitment space, and there is that constant thread between them all. It's they spend loads of time on the phone, they've got really good relationships, and there's not a shortcut either. That was kind of one of the other things, you know. Some of these people, yes, they're billing a million pound a year, 2 million pound a year. It's not their first year in recruitment, right? They've spent 5 or 6 years fostering, maintaining, nurturing these relationships that they've got, and really knowing their craft and knowing their space. So Um, we regularly say to people when they join, you could make 100 grand in your first year, but you probably won't. Um, and they're like, well, you know, so many other recruitment businesses telling me I can earn 100K and I can do this and I can do that. Yes, yeah, of course they will, but realistically you won't. You put the hard graft in and you put the work in now that will start to pay you dividends in 2 or 3 years' time. It is a long game. And you've got to be prepared to do it for the long term to really, really cash in, I guess, and to really earn from it. And ultimately, that's what big billers are doing, right? They're making a load of money and they're earning great comms off of it. But they do that by investing, constantly investing. And also kind of going back to something that we were talking about earlier on is they take responsibility. They don't go, oh, that wasn't my fault. Oh yeah, no, they screwed me over. They lied, they this, they that. They go, damn it, I should have another one in there. 'Oh, I should have another candidate in,' or 'I could have asked that,' or 'I didn't talk about a buyback early enough in the process,' or, or whatever it is. But they take responsibility. So it's, it's that, yeah, okay, activity, activity is always going to be there, but it is a bit of a cop-out answer. It's investing in your networks, and again, it's, it's taking responsibility for your own, your own actions. You're the one in control at the end of the day. You're the recruiter, right?

So I'm, I'm gonna be a bit cheeky and go back to the cop-out answer because I just feel like there's something about the tangibles that I think people love. I think it's like if they can get steps as to like, or just insights to what the physical kind of tangibles are for top billers, it's always useful. I remember there was a top biller from a company who did a million and he was quite open about the calls he did, number of calls he did, and I broke it down over the year and he was doing about 25 to 30 calls per day. And I thought that was actually really reasonable. That's every day, Monday to Friday for a dream. Yeah, and I was like, wow, that's actually really good. Um, but have you got, have you, have you got any data around, you know, either volume, calls, any kind of metric or baseline as to what the top billers are doing compared to the, you know, compared to other recruiters? Have you got any idea? Just so maybe other people can be like, oh cool, I'm 50% away, or I'm, you know, I'm 10 calls away, or anything like that.

No, I think it's so, so dependent on your market We've got a couple of markets that we work in where there's like a $15K to $20K average fee. We've got other markets that we work in where they're like $40K to $60K average fees, right? And so by nature of those two markets, they're not going to behave the same. And so therefore, the top billers in those markets, they're not going to perform the same way from a metrics point of view. We track a lot of metrics within the business here, but we don't use them as like a club to beat consultants over the head. With, which is what a lot of businesses do, you know. Oh, you've got to make 5 meetings this week because it's your stat. It's like, it doesn't make any sense. Um, if you then took that to, I don't know, someone working, temp workers where they've got, you know, 200 runners out, or if I start to say, oh yeah, well, you know, the top billers here are making 50 calls a day, they might fail miserably at 50. With 50 calls a day, they might be more like 200, 300. Again, I don't know the numbers That's right. But, um, but yeah, the one thing that I would say, and I think it kind of goes broader than that, is like, no one's ever been promoted for being the class clown. Yeah, it's so easy in a recruitment environment to sit back and have a chat with your pals and, you know, you know, shoot the shit and that kind of stuff. But you're here to— you're here to work, you're here to get paid, you're here to, to do as much as you possibly can. And it should be, it should be a game of whatever environment you're in. How can I spend as much time on the phone as possible? How can I make as many calls as possible? That should be the game. And if you gamify it with yourself, it then becomes pretty easy for you to track and monitor and, and look at. And some of the most successful recruiters that I've seen here, they'll like, you know, they'll keep a Post-it note by their desk, and every time they connect to to a candidate or a client, they'll stick a markdown.

That's cool.

And then it's almost like gamifies it. And then they look at lunch and they're like, yeah, I'm a bit behind. I probably need to set myself up to really go at it this afternoon or something like that. But it's not necessarily— yes, okay, the number of your metrics matters and the volume of your metrics matters, but it's also keep them in mind. Where are you? Where do you want to be? Where should you be? Set yourself a big target, try and hit it, right? And go from there. I saw something the other day and it was about a guy that was, he was doing like $2.5 million or something like that. And I was like, well, that is just crazy. And he said, yeah, I know, he's like, um, uh, he did $1.5 million the year before and then he saw someone who did $1.8 And so he was like, damn it, I thought my 1.5 was good, right? Let's go for 2. And he went for 2 and then ended up at 2.5.

Oh, and then he's like, crazy.

Well, see, the thing is, I've just kind of seen someone that's doing 2.8 next year. I'm going for 3. I'm like, oh my God, where does it end? Right? But the, the main thing there is he's, he's thinking about it. He's keeping his numbers in mind, and then he's tying it back to his daily actions, his, his activity, his metrics. Whatever that might be. If you think, oh, I had a really good day yesterday, all right, how many calls did you make? How many calls did you make on a really good day, right? If you made 60 calls on a really good day, what does a week of really good days look like, right? Well, it looks like 300 calls. Cool. 60 a day, 300 a week. My God, you're making 1,200 calls a month. Imagine how good your desk would be if you could make 1,200 calls a month. Yeah, every day is a good day, right? And then, and then all of a sudden, watch what happens in 2 or 3 months' time. Your billings are going to absolutely skyrocket. Yeah, self-accountable. Keep yourself to those metrics, whatever they might be, whatever works for you, and, and, and, and push, push for that. And I'm a big one for gamifying it, making it a game, seeing if you can beat your best. What is your best? What is your top, uh, your top score for calls or talk time or whatever? And just shoot to beat that.

Yeah, I actually love that piece of advice. Or you said multiple things that are really helpful, Harley, um, but the last one resonated with me, which is for consultants who have been in the game for maybe, you know, a couple of years now, go back to your best month and look at your numbers. If you can look at how many calls you're making, look at how many submissions, look at just everything that you were doing, and then that— follow that metric. I think that's actually a really good piece of advice because that's what me and Sam did as well. We look back at really good months that we had, and we're like, oh, actually we realized we'd, you know, we did this many posts, we had this many calls, we did this many free trials, and it made it a lot easier. Like, oh, actually the figures, when you average them out, that these are the figures we need to hit. So, and it made it so much easier.

So yeah, really good piece of advice, especially for people that are new to recruitment. If you, you know, work as hard as you can for 2 or 3 weeks, right, have a look at what was your best day. What day did you go, brilliant, I've worked so hard today, I've done this, right? That's your target. Now make that your target and then go, right, every day. And again, one of the other things that I would recommend is keep your targets over a short period of time. The moment you start talking about a month, it's very easy. You lose a, you lose a day, you lose a week. You lose a week, you lose a month, right? It's just, it can snowball like that. Whereas if you keep yourself accountable and even do morning and afternoon him. But yeah, keeping yourself accountable to a number, to, to something, um, you're, you're going to benefit from it. Yeah, that's, that's the way that I always look at it. You, you were the only one who can benefit, really.

So I love that, man.

Yeah.

Holly, I have to say, this has been an amazing podcast, a different podcast, but that's why I love it. We've had a very different perspective and just some really valuable insights. Um, thank you so much for joining us today, Holly. I really appreciate it. Um, and I hope everyone listening has enjoyed it as Yeah, I hope so.

And thanks so much for having me. It's been, been a real pleasure to speak with you. And, um, yeah, keep doing what you're doing. It's, uh, it's great stuff. I'm really interested to see, see the other ones that come out as well. So, so thanks so much for having me.

Thanks, mate. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.

Mm.