This Recruiter Billed $1.5 Million by Flipping Candidates

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Jason Ayatchi. Jason is a $1.5 million biller, and 50% of his revenue has been generated through candidate flipping. Today we're going to be speaking about his entire candidate flipping strategy from beginning to end. We're also going to be talking about how he engages A-player candidates so this entire candidate flipping strategy can work in the first place. Finally, we're going going to be delving into Jason's tech stack. He's doing some exciting things with AI and automated outreach. Guys, we hope you enjoy this episode. As usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's jump into it, shall we? Hey Jason, how are you, my friend?

I'm doing great. How about you, Sam and Ben?

Very good.

Very good. Um, you were a recommendation from one of our other guests, Greg, who we've just had on the pod. He spoke very highly of you, and after hearing more about what you've done, your story, your billings, your strategy, I was like, oh my God, we've got to have Jason on the pod. So thank you for coming today, mate. I really appreciate it.

Absolutely. I'm glad to be here, and it just shows my content strategy isn't strong enough if I had to come on via referral versus finding me.

It's all good. As long as you're here, that's all me and Ben care about.

We made it. We made it happen though.

Exactly. Um, uh, I, I know you're a watcher of the pod, so you're probably expecting this question, but we always start with the same one.

What's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

What would you say, Jason?

Yeah. Um, so I'll take it a little bit different than mindset and software, and I'll say peer group. Um, and some people may call it a mastermind, a business organization, but I find being around like-minded people is one of the biggest elevators one can have in their career, right? Especially in recruiting or operating a business. You do it a lot of times on an island. And so if you can be around people who are doing and seeing the same challenges, you can collaborate, you can see what works before an issue comes. And yeah, I would say that's been one of the best things that I've had. And Greg, who introduced us, shameless plug, if you need offshore hiring, he's your guy. But at the end of the day, all of our businesses have thrived just because of that. So, so yeah, that would be my toolkit.

Really interesting, man. Is there one thing— I think we asked Greg the same question as well, but I'm just curious— is there one thing or a couple things that the Mastermind has done for you in terms of maybe continuous mindset or a strategy that they were like, hey Jason, you've got to be doing this? Can you think of anything like that?

Yeah, there's a couple things that come to mind. So our group is interesting. We kind of have a framework of like business, personal, and action-adventure. So we try to get out and do downhill mountain biking, snowboarding, bouldering, but really the ethos is how can we help our business? And so that one day might be figuring out a sales strategy. The other day might be like, I'm down in the dumps because of a relationship or this client said something, right? And so we try to keep it well-rounded, but I would say one of the biggest things they did for me, which we'll talk more about, is I'm a crazy entrepreneur. I like to build businesses and chase shiny objects. And one of those businesses was creating a whole body health sleep supplement brand post-COVID. And after showing the numbers, the time and material and everything I was doing versus recruiting, they all went in and said, dude, wake up, focus on recruiting. This is what's paying the bills. This is what you're a tier one at. Go get it. And so I needed somebody to like push me. So that's what I would say is like they're not afraid to have the hard, hard conversation or ask the hard question where sometimes internally you're not able to do that. Mm-hmm.

I love that. Can I— because you told us just off call as well, Jason, off recording, that because we know that Greg's part of your mastermind, but you put it together, which I find is fascinating. So I'd love to know what inspired you to put the mastermind together and then what, what decisions did you make in terms of how, who you were going to choose to bring in it, bring into the mastermind?

Yeah. So when I sold my last business, Ramp Up, I had a co-founder at that time. When I relaunched this new business, Proper Search, I was doing it as a solo founder. And after talking to a bunch of executives and venture-backed startups that I work with, you see kind of trends as far as having advisors or mentors, etc. And so I said, look, in this venture, I want to make sure I don't miss. And so what I decided to do was take a framework from a group called EO, which is actually where Greg and a bunch of us met, Entrepreneur Organization. Basically, it's, it's the tier under YPO, so you don't have to do as well in revenue. And so we were, we were all in that, but neither of us or none of us were getting exactly what we wanted. And so what I decided to do was like, okay, what's going to help my business best? And so I went out and I met a bunch of people in EO, Greg being one of them, and said, okay, your business is where I want to be. You've raised money or sold a business where I want to learn. You're also in recruiting, but you're doing it in a different space and doing things in offshore. And so I basically took a group of people that were all awesome but also had things that I was weaker at. And so I brought them into my ecosystem. and now we've just thrived. I think we're about 2 years in. We meet every Monday. We figure— we work on like an EOS process. We set goals, OKRs, quarterly reviews. So it's almost like an internal board of advisors we created.

So cool. I absolutely love that.

Um, what I find interesting as well is the psychology of getting buy-in, because you want people who are probably the same if not better than you, right, in a mastermind. And so what I'm interested in— how did you approach it and get buy-in from these people? Like Cause it's a big thing, like you're getting them to invest their time, their energy, their expertise. What's the best way that you found to get buy-in from those people?

This is where being a really good recruiter came in, right? So it, uh, it, it, it kind of came down to what I do with my candidates, right? Really try to understand their pain points, what they would maybe want, what they would like to get more of, what was maybe hindering their businesses, and then trying to match it with a culture that fit the ethos of what we wanted, right? That action adventure. So what ended up coming from it was you had a lot of these business people sitting on islands that needed to have, needed support. They needed a phone to pick up, right? If something went wrong because they were all solo founders. Then the next was everybody really liked being outdoors. We're in Colorado doing action adventure. So it was like, okay, what if we give you the outdoor activity and the friend group some of you're seeking plus the phone call you need to pick up? And so once I understood that ethos, it was much able to say, would this be valuable to you? Um, and it's evolved over time. Where it started is not where it is today, but that was how I planted the seed, was leveraging what they weren't getting and wanted, and then showed them, hey, what if we tried this? And it's, it's worked out great.

I love that.

So clever, man. That's like—

I'm guessing— sorry, Sam.

No, no, go ahead. You're gonna ask a question?

I was gonna say, like, it's almost like, okay, what do you need? What do you need? What, what do you need? And then you go, well, Were you trying to find other people that complemented what those, what some of them needed, if that makes sense? So you're getting people that can give advice on different areas of building a business?

Yeah, so I started with what do I want selfishly, like what's gonna help my business, and then I started to unpack what others wanted and see if there was a fit. So the best way to put it was I figured out what I wanted, then I targeted people who I thought had those, and then I learned what would be interesting to them. And fortunately I chose right. Like I said, right, your business, you've done $10 million in profit, you've done and built strategic businesses where you're not even in the day-to-day, need that. Raised money, exited, need that. Offshore, need that. And we were able to package it up. And the lucky part is all of us had interactions through one of the other groups we were in. So it wasn't like cold per, per connection.

Yeah. Cool, man. Let's get on it.

We've got so much to cover.

I'm just going to move on to the Can you tell us a bit about your background, Jason? Because I find you have a very interesting background. You were in tech and yeah, you were essentially in tech and you learned how to code. You've got like this really fascinating background before you decided to go into, you know, all in, in recruitment. So can you give us just a very brief background as to how you started?

Yeah, so didn't code, but I'll walk you through the story. So, um, I've always been entrepreneurial, always, uh, very interested in building businesses. Went to school for business administration, not to be a lawyer, doctor. And so funny enough, my best friend's girlfriend's sister worked for Apex Systems, a tech, tech company, a major one in the contracting space. So I sat down with her. I'm like, what does the day-to-day look like? And she's like, this was back in the heyday where you went golfing, you took them to happy hours, you had unlimited social budgets. And I'm like, what do you make? She's like, multiple six figures. I'm like, I can do that. So that was my intro into recruiting. So I ended up joining Apex Systems, worked for them for about 5 years, really doing contractor-based work, right? So tech, infrastructure, developers, et cetera. Grew into sales and then decided I wanted to take my stab at kind of management. So I got an opportunity to become a director at Robert Half, started helping them grow their business in kind of the West Hollywood area. They call it Silicon Beach at that time. And it wasn't until kind of, I kind of had this aha moment where contract recruiting wasn't for me. I preferred the relationship and direct hires, what I like to do. And I even gravitated toward my customers and I'm like, I can do this on my own. So I walked into my manager's office one day and said, I'm quitting. And he was like, no, you're not. And then I said, yes, I am. And we went through that song and dance and he went and got the paperwork. And then it was off to, you know, sitting in your bedroom figuring out what's next. You can't really see it, but that frame right there is actually my first check from as an independent. So one of the things we'll talk about is like being more of an assassin than a niche-focused recruiter. That company was a gold and silver business and I helped them hire an engineer. But yeah, so I got into being an entrepreneur about 14 years ago, started really gravitating toward the startup space. And in that I got enamored with tech. And so my vision was not to be a recruiter, was actually to build a recruitment automation platform to support recruiters or internal companies. And so I brought on at that time a really good friend, my co-founder Morgan, who's running RampUp today. And we decided to create kind of like a high-tech, high-touch approach agency. So we used the agency to fund the tech. Fun fact, if you're ever building tech, don't bootstrap it. Way too hard. But we decided to do that because we were at that time a little delusional, didn't want to dilute. So we ended up building a V1, think like back in the day, hire.com meets maybe like a, I think it's Olivia, the AI bot. So we started building that, we got a couple good V1 customers, and then at that time we realized we needed to scale it. So we ended up raising capital about $1.75 million from strategic investors. We ended up scaling that business until COVID. Long story short, we ended up flipping that business to them, a portfolio in 2022, and that's when I started this new venture. But Um, yeah, tech was always the vision. I, you know, I ran product strategy, I wireframed, I hired the engineers, the front and the back and the designers, everything we do for our clients. I'm like, I'm gonna do it myself. Um, and so yeah, that was kind of my, my step into kind of the tech-enabled recruiting agency per se.

Really interesting, man. And then I know that, uh, and this must have been shortly after you joined the Mastermind, uh, the, the guys are like, hey Jason, you should probably go all in on recruitment and, and focus all your attention on recruitment.

Yeah. So I guess to round out that story, so COVID was, was rough, right? We had north of 25 people. I would— I like to say that business I built more like a family. This business I'm building like a team, right? Like a sports club. And, you know, we had to furlough, lay off people. It got rough. And so I didn't sleep well, as you can imagine. So I actually decided to learn how to build like a CPG company. So I built the whole body health sleep supplement brand. Think of it like the age you want to sleep. But more efficacious. So I went out, did my recruiting thing, found the head of neurology and sleep at Cedars-Sinai Hospital in LA, formulated it, and then built a full end-to-end CPG brand. That's what actually led me to my niche today and to the group saying, dude, stop building businesses, focus on one and build that.

And so, yeah, I was going to say, how the hell do you find time for all of this, Jason? Because like building— like being a successful recruiter in and of itself is bloody difficult. And then building other businesses, like, I'm, I'm super impressed. Um, but what I'd like— you kind of touched upon it there, which is the niche thing. Jason, Sam said to me that you build like, you know, you build $3 million over 3 years, so you're, you're a top biller. Um, and for a long time you didn't have a specific niche, and I was like, what? I was like, that's so unusual because most recruiters billing $500,000 to $1 million, they're, you know, they're honed into a very specific niche. So I'm really curious, how did you make that work? Like, how How did you build so much without a niche? Like, what was the secret?

Yeah, so actually, fun fact, until 3 months ago, I didn't have a niche. Um, and so, um, it's, it's all brand new. Um, but yeah, my mentality was industry agnostic. Um, always about just creating the right systems and process that could scale. So we were more like an assassin-based recruiting company than like a database recruiting company, which I see the value in both, right? Um, How I built it was kind of twofold. So one, I, I was telling Sam earlier that, uh, before the call, building world-class relationships and really understanding the why and the how from my candidates allows me to do what I do really well at, which is flip candidates. So I'd say flipping candidates is one of them. Uh, obviously retention strategies is the other. I would say cold email is the other that's worked well. And then from there, I do some unique things with regards to channel partnerships. So people that have larger audiences and are connected, I give them a portion of my fee. And then also one of my, my newer tricks is I embed in my contracts the ask that if I perform, they'll introduce me to their top 2 VCs or other founders in their network. So those are a couple of my core strategies, which we can unpack any of them deeper if you want.

Awesome, man.

Yeah, that all sounds epic, mate. I'm so excited to go into these.

Yeah, cool. Should we go straight into candidate flipping? Because I know that was one of the first things you said to me, Jason, on the call, that that was a huge portion of your, of your revenue. So I'm a, I'm a recruiter. I have no idea what you're doing when it comes to candidate flipping. Jason, can you treat me like a 6-year-old and talk me through your process of candidate flipping, starting from the very beginning?

Yeah, I will do my best. So to— for the audience, you know, my background was more in direct hire. This new business is more like hybrid RPO and executive recruiting. So it is a little easier to flip because you're talking to, you know, no less than director and above more often than not. But my strategy is kind of twofold, right? I know on your pod you have a lot of individuals talk about talking to IC contributors to get data, what's happening at that company. So when they make the cold call, they're able to have a tell a story, right, that can resonate with the hiring manager. So mine really just starts with actually the hiring manager. And what I do while talking to candidates is not only try to suss them out for the role, but I also dig in a little bit of like how they hire, who they work with, what are the pain points with recruiters, right? So I'm starting to understand what recs are on your desk, right? Like if you were to leave, do you have any hires that might be upcoming?

Right.

Which is a good question because that lets me know where their, their mind frame is at and what's going on. So really kind of using my screen and intake call to learn how they hire, how they manage, and what they're doing, because more often than not, they're gonna have to do the same thing in my current organization that I'm placing, right? Mm-hmm. So from there I get, um, context, which I think context is, is some of the most important aspects you can have as a recruiter. Um, because then you know what moves to make. So usually I do data collection and it's not on the first call where I try to flip them because obviously my intent is to place them. But from there, once I have that data, I then say, okay, if this could be a really good customer, I kind of go in with that 7-star experience like that above and beyond that. Like if you lived next to me, like I would go take your kids to school experience, I like to say, right? And so what that does for me is it starts to build a relationship and for them to see what good looks like. I feel like one of the issues in our, our business is there's a lot of more transactional mindset or just let's use anybody and hope for the best. And it's because a lot of people don't know what good looks like. And so we try to show that early on and then that turns into a great, um, conversation or at least a shameless ask, hey, this didn't work out. Anything we could work with you on? You'd mentioned this. And so then I take it down that way. And so we've landed 4 clients this year doing that. Um, and it's panned out really well.

Awesome, man. So just to confirm, you're gathering data upfront, um, with the idea of then next providing an insane experience, storing that data for a later date for then when you can go in and say, hey, this role worked out great. What about XYZ? Or, hey, this didn't work out, but you said this. Do you need any help with this?

Absolutely. And the question I asked is, did you have a good experience with us? And if they say yes, now it's like I can kind of go to the path, why wouldn't you work with me on this? Right? Like, so it sets up like a strategic ask versus truly cold, right? And it can be an ask for their business or who else do you know? So it puts you in such a good place that you can get candidate referrals for your role. You can get new customers. It's just been a way to be like a hub and spoke model for me.

Brilliant.

And what, just so, just for context for the listeners, what roles are you actually placing, Jason, for these guys?

So, uh, in our model in executive search, I'd say director and above. I would say this is where I'm not as good, you know, as the assassin. We, we focus in, I would say, marketing, GTM, product, finance, and ops the most. I know some businesses only in, you know, GTM or ops, but we, we traditionally do director and above. I don't do engineering unless it's like VP or CTO level. Um, and then on our RPO side, I like to say hire the leader, then build their team. And so we do a lot of team building. So when we're in those engagements, we will go lower level, like we have materials managers or ops managers or brand managers. Um, but traditionally we, we only do that if it's, uh, highly retained and it's, it's team building. Cool.

Interesting.

One thing I just wanna ask, sorry, just to go back to the, cuz this is all riding, this whole kind of concept of candidate flipping is all riding on the fact that you are delivering a fantastic experience, really, isn't It, because if you didn't, really none of the candidate flipping or referrals would work well. So then my brain instantly goes to Jason, what are you doing to provide an amazing candidate experience? Is there any particular systems that you have in place that you know you will do with every client or candidate?

Um, yeah, so a couple things, right? Similar to like how I found the mastermind or created it was what's the pain point for my candidate, right? Like what's the experience that they've had with recruiters? What, what does their life look like? Do they have kids? What's going on? And so I try to create this like archetype of who that person is so that I can position myself. And this is what we train my team on. From there, it becomes pretty simple is we do preps before every interview and we do a prep in a two-form format, which we really like is one is a prep on what, what's going on in the company that they should know based on either the division, the infrastructure, who's there. The other is on the person they're speaking with. So I'll put in there, they love to mountain bike, they have 2 kids, they've been with the company 10 years, right? They've been married 8 years. So really about their personal, they talk fast, they move fast, they don't like this, right? And then the bottom would be kind of section would be very much around like, this is what they're looking for. These are things to be prepared with. And so we kind of do like a holistic view of the person and the role. To make sure they feel really good. And in the executive level, when you're doing that and every call is with a VP, a board member, an investor, it adds a lot of value. And then from there, we make them feel heard. We relay information back to the client. If there's any issue, we feel like they're set up and they feel like we're more of a partner than just like, hey, you sent my resume down. Now, don't get me wrong, there's some candidates that are just like, I got it, I'm an executive, I don't need any help. But more often than not, Um, they appreciate that approach. So I wouldn't say anything, uh, extraordinary, but it's really just detail dialed in and really, um, focused on making sure that we controlled what we can control, right? That's what I like to do.

Really interesting.

Yeah, I feel like it's also important to mention that you're cherry-picking the clients, the candidates that are going to have a decision-making— be in a decision-making power later on down the line, right? And now that I feel like, why doesn't every recruiter do that? And I know it's a bit of a naive question, but why doesn't every recruiter do that? If, if they know the person they're placing, they're going to get a fee off and they could get business off, why doesn't everyone do that?

Jason, you may not have the answer, but yeah, you know, I think it goes back to, um, the type of business you run, what's important to you, right, and your values. And I'd say a lot of recruiters are just transactional, right? So I'm never going to run a desk of 500 recs. Hopefully my company will get there one day, but I try not to overload the recruiters. I also say, why? We don't own a job slot. So another thing is, is everyone we go after, we have high intent that they could get the job, so we don't have to spend time with everybody. So it's much easier if you have 2 rock stars to spend time with than 10 people across 10 recs, right? So we, we measure that. But I think it's, it's the transactional mindset. If you work at an agency KPIs, numbers, these things, you can't measure that, right, at the end of the day. And so I think that's where things get lost in translation. But I mean, it's been my superpower even with the ramp-up business. I mean, 90% of the business was relationship-driven candidate flipping. And how I got to bill basically about $3 million over the last 3 years was I set a strategy. I said everybody that I think would, would have enjoyed working with me, I built a list, I reached out to them. I told them what I was doing, where I was at, and that turned into building some clients. Then those clients turned into referrals and others and they came back. Right. And I think the fun fact, my 2022, when I launched, I started with zero clients because we sold that book of business. And so I literally had a LinkedIn recruiter account and my phone and a blank screen is what I had.

I love that.

Crazy, man.

What do you think?

Because there's quite a few things, Jason, that you mentioned that provide a good, you know, a 7-star experience, I think you said, which then in turn gives you more leverage to ask for stuff. Is there like an 80/20 with all the stuff you mentioned? Is it getting to know their personal life and really just getting to know them on a personal level? Is that the biggest point of leverage? Is it showing your expertise and getting them the right role? Like, if there was a big point of leverage that you think happens with all your relationships, where is it, do you think?

Yeah, I'd say initial conversations, initial relationship, right? Getting that context that I spoke about is most important because that context gives you all the ammo you need to use your process or show them how you work or what you do, right? Like you can— there's a million ways to skin the cat, but you don't know what to do if you don't understand what you're working with, right? So laying that foundation is absolutely the most important part. And you may find in that as well, this person might not be worth spending the time with or isn't worth flipping, or a 5-star experience is good enough, right? Um, type of thing. So I definitely think that beginning stage is hands down most important.

Really interesting. Uh, Ben, sorry, do you have a question?

Yeah, just last one on the flipping for me is what— it might be really simple, but when do you know— when is it appropriate to ask for the, for the business? And, and how do you do it? Because I think that's the, that's the bit that might be quite sensitive.

Yep. So like I said in the beginning, it's understanding and then reshifting gears to focus on helping them get the job that I originally called them about, right? So as that job shows that maybe there's a candidate that's a little more elevated or the process is going to start to end, um, that's when I start to ask that strategic question, right? Is more once they feel that I've done enough for them, then I come with the ask because yeah, you're right. You don't wanna, hey, I have this role for you, but can I hire for you over here? Right? Like it, it, it's talking outta both sides of the mouth. So really it's delivering to say, at the end of the day, as a recruiter, I always say my job is to put good people in front of good people. They have to do the rest. Right? And so if I've done that, I feel comfortable to ask. And again, if they get the job, The other beauty is it up, okay, do you have a backfill or replacement? Who runs that process, right? And now it becomes a win-win. So, um, I think leveraging your candidates is the most underutilized, um, playbook out there in my opinion.

Got it. And sorry, just to clarify on that one, just to, uh, are you do, are you asking them before they actually start the role or are you asking them once they're 2 weeks in or a month in or does it vary, Jason, depending on the person?

Um, I don't think there's a rhyme or reason, but typically once they've accepted, I kind of joke about it. So who's gonna— who's taking over your role? Because part of it is like, how do you close them? Is like, are you gonna leave? Are they gonna counter? You know, what type of notice period would you have to give because you're such a vital player potentially, right? So within that context, I can kind of tongue-in-cheek be like, how about you help me get in and I'll make sure they're taken care of? Or, you know, who's running that process? Would you make an intro? Right? Help me let them give a soft landing type of thing.

Cool, I love that.

Is there— because you mentioned, and this must have been a trial and error, Jason, you're spending a lot of time with each candidate, learning their personal life, giving them a 7-star experience. What, um, what red flags or things do you spot in the beginning process to kind of give you the inkling that they're not going to be worth spending time with and your, your effort should be probably spent with someone else or elsewhere? Is there anything that comes up?

Yeah, a few things. I think that again, that initial call, if the context doesn't fit the frame, I kind of move on from that methodology. The other is, is I traditionally try not to present any candidate that I don't think could get the job. So I'm really just spending time with folks that like, there's high intent there. Um, unless maybe there's a selfish reason where, you know, they're just seeing what's out there, but they'll never, like, take it. Then I'll bridge the gap and I'll do other strategies with the client to make sure they don't get burned. But yeah, it's in that original state. And I think I shared earlier on our pre-call one of the things, Ben, that I'll share with you, that when I know to double down on the experience is when I also start to see the velocity of the client moving pick up with the candidate. So all the recruiters out there can see when they feel like they're forcing a process, interview my person, Why haven't you set up next steps? You're like, it's because it's not the one. But when you have the one, it's like everything flows, right? It's like you just sit back and you watch good things happen. And so as I see those trends now, I'm like, this is a good person to invest in, right? And so I, that's where I can kind of take it up a notch.

Got it. That makes perfect sense. You're looking for like positive signs from both the client and the candidate, and if things are flowing, you're like, cool, this is this is an opportunity. I need to double down on this, on the situation. Very cool. Um, I don't know what you want to get into, Sam. I'd love to touch upon cold email because I'm a bit of a cold email fanatic. Um, what worked for you, Jason, for cold email? Like, what worked? What would be your number one strategy, do you think?

Yeah, so, um, given my tech background, I love tech automation and trying to do more with less. And so Right now, as I build this new business, it's around systems and creating automations to empower my team. So I don't need as many heads, right? That is my methodology. So I actually have what I call an agent developer on staff. And so they are an NAN. They are working in all the automations. They're taking my ideas and my frames and helping me put everything together. So what we've done is we've created a cold email structure using Clay. And so it's a, it's kind of a multi-pronged approach. But now that I've niched down, this is what makes it easy. We've built massive datasets of customers, um, within the ideal client that we'd like to target from number of employees, revenue, funding, et cetera. We build out our specific clay tables and then we pair it with a tool called, uh, LGM, where you can do a multi-touch sequence approach that goes across email and LinkedIn. And so it's instead of just doing LinkedIn chatbots, it's a hybrid of both. And the beauty of Clay, I'm sure you guys have investigated or know, but you can make things look much more customizable where it's like someone did more of the work. So it can scrape a LinkedIn profile, look for their own if they have their own websites or, you know, data on the web, Facebook, and say, hey, you know, Jason, I see you're in Colorado. You were part of Entrepreneur Organization. I see you've niched down into consumer, consumer goods. And so it can craft emails knowing more about me and do it at a higher velocity. So that's really what we're working on right now is high intent over high volume. NPCs are another strategy that we're building into this framework as well.

Awesome. And I'm curious, Jason, what was— because this sounds like it's more— you're developing this and this is kind of I'm sure it's working well, but what was working pre— but yeah, before you, you started playing around this automation, what was working before that? Do you think, was it a big part of your business? Was it of your business?

It was not. One of my best clients did come from it, so I can't say, but really it was, I used Instantly. And so I did database building, used Instantly, and just had multi-sequencing campaigns going up to the, the areas I had logos or history in the past. So, um, one of my big clients was in fintech, um, and they needed that RPO solution. So I had a sequencing going for that business model. And then I would like to say I'm fairly dangerous once I get 'em on the phone, um, with my background. And so just the right storytelling. But yeah, I mean, it really was just, you know, what I call cold email is mailbox money. It does it while you're sleeping. And so, um, that was part of the strategy. The new strategy to go with cold is content with cold email. So it's more of a warm, uh, a warm loop, I'd like to say.

Awesome.

And just, I, I've heard Clay like for the last couple months on every LinkedIn post. What, for any, I know what Clay is, but for what any, for, for any recruiter that doesn't know what Clay is, but they've heard it around, what is Clay? Jason, can you just give us a rundown?

Think of Clay as a hub that can interface with any technology system out there and think of it as what you used to have to pay an MBA-based researcher to do, it does it for you once set up in a matter of, you know, tens of minutes depending on how much data you want. And so it basically has a way to scrape, pull in, and integrate with any tech stack out there. So, so yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a compound effect platform is what I'd say. So, but research is the big, the big area that a lot of clients, uh, leverage it for.

Interesting. So it's really good at gathering super specific lists that I want to, say if I wanted to find, uh, recruiters running an agency of 50 people and they were in the United States in engineering, it could find me that level of detail of lists. Am I right?

Builds the lists if prompted correctly, builds the lists and then enriches the data, which is the best part. So here's that. Company that's hiring this and raise this, and then it will tell you who the right people at those companies are, and then it will tell you about those people.

Wow.

So like it just goes down that path, um, and so we've actually reversed engineered that same situation to do recruiting.

Crazy. It's interesting because even if you didn't have the automation past that point, you're gathering so much specific information, you could just cold call them with like some really with, with all that data, that could still be a way in straight away. Does it give you phone numbers?

Download a CSV, drop it in your ATS, or literally just look at it on your screen, um, get their emails, cold call, drop them in instantly. So, uh, yeah, it's, it's basically like your, your researcher best friend. Um, what a lot of people use offshore for, this just does it a lot faster. And so we leverage this, and then we have offshore help clean it up and make sure that it, it's working appropriately.

Nice, man. I'm, I'm gonna be checking out Clay after this call. Uh, Jason, uh, I've been putting it off for way too long, but I'm definitely gonna jump into it.

Yeah, hit, hit me up. I'll give you a little demo.

Oh, thank you, man. Appreciate that.

Awesome.

Ben, were you gonna ask something?

I was actually gonna touch up on partner channels cuz we don't, we haven't really heard anyone talk about partner channels, Jason. So how are you leveraging partner channels to win business?

Yep. So, um, when I was doing a lot of the work in the consumer brand side, everybody uses creators, influencers to promote their products and does an affiliate partnership program, right? And I'm like, if these 9-figure brands or these brands that just raised, you know, $10, $20, $30 million are doing this, why, why shouldn't agencies be doing this? And so I have a belief that B2B businesses will start to do this more. And so what I went and did was said, now that I've niched down, who are people that have audiences in my market and are connected or doing work with my same persona. And so I created a framework, um, where I give them a portion of my fee for the first year, sometimes two, depending on like how value they are. Um, and I just cold outreach to them, or I ask for a warm intro, um, which is something we can talk about too, which is strategy that I leverage for, for BD. But, um, yeah, and so I put a framework together, a deck together, kind of a whole wholesale solution so that they can say, dang, this, this intro is worthwhile. We get good fees in recruiting, right? So 5 to 10% for, for saying, hey, Sam, go talk to Ben is, is pretty nice. But you all know what we pay a top sales player too, right? So I think it's a, it's a steal and it keeps my infrastructure light and keeps me top of mind, hopefully.

Awesome. And so can we just go into a little bit more detail about that? What is Can you give us an example of a partner that then kind of introduced you to a client? Like, what does that look like in your world, Jason?

Yeah. So, a good example, I'm working with somebody right now. They run an agency that does kind of more creative design and digital marketing business for consumer packaged goods. So I created a channel partnership with them and they— I told them who my persona is, who I'm working with. And they— I went and said, hey, your companies are kind of like the ones I want to work with. So now they're introducing me to their customers and it's a warm intro from someone that they trust who's already delivering for them. And so my conversations have been much easier and we're in a few contract negotiations right now from that perspective.

Yeah, it's really clever.

It's a newer tactic and I pair that with, like I said, in my actual contract agreements, asking founders to make intros for me.

Mm, love that, man. Um, I'm not sure if we covered this, and I might be going crazy, but I don't— I'm—

you—

your candidate flipping strategy starts with the fact that you have to get a great candidate on the phone. And I'm sure, you know, dozens if not hundreds of recruiters would love to be in that position where they're speaking to high-value candidates, Jason. So how are you initially getting those great candidates on the phone, especially if you're speaking to like you know, higher-level people, directors and above?

So I like to say I don't want to work with a company I wouldn't work for. So it all starts with I try to really get awesome companies that have a good story because at the end of the day, going after passive talent, it's all in the story, right? And so from there, I try to package up that story. So I've raised money before and I understand kind of the game. And so I take a little of that approach and put it in my pitches. And so we're very transparent with who the company is. I send zero pitches that are like, unless it's a very private secret executive search, I tell who the company is, who the founder is, what's their story, who they've hired from, what logos, you know, the why. I try to package everything up so that they already have some interest before talking with me because I don't need to waste my time if they're not interested. And I prefer to just be a little different in the market because I know when I was trained, from the bigger agencies, you know, it was don't tell them who you work with because someone will go get it right, or they may apply without you. And so I flipped the mindset of like, they're going to get value from this email. Their likelihood to get this role is probably higher by working with me. So let's talk.

Love that, man. That's so much to unpack there. So, so the story and working with great companies is like the first stage, making sure you get that story in front of the candidate and being completely transparent. How are you sending that? Because I'm guessing you can't send LinkedIn.

LinkedIn. And I do cold email as well. But yeah, I wouldn't say there's any, you know, outside of referrals, I would say LinkedIn in-mails and/or cold email through some sequencing is what we do. But yeah, you know, we try to go a layer deeper, right? So what we'll do before we kick off any searches, let's say it's a venture-backed company, we'll see who all their investors are and we'll say tier 1 VCs, A16z, Bessemer, etc. So we'll call that out. Funding around a run rate, we'll call that out. They've hired people from XYZ brand and logos, which gives validity, right? So if it's a tech company from Airbnb or from Uber or, you know, you name it. And so we'll try to package it up to be like, dang, this sounds like this could be desirable. Why not give it 5 minutes, right? And a lot of times candidates will jump, a lot of times they'll say no. And then depending on, back to the candidate flipping, their level and who they are, I'll push for a networking conversation. Hey, we should know each other, right? Let— give me 5 minutes, right?

Which one are they most likely to respond to, LinkedIn, email, you know, the networking one? And how many times do you have to usually follow up? Is it just one LinkedIn message and they usually respond? Like, what, what happens there?

It's all over the place. I'd say between our first 3 pitches we have really good response rates. If after that we then typically drop them in cold email sequencing, um, to their personal. So We also connect with them, drop them a comment. Um, some of the things we're exploring is, you know, video messaging, et cetera. Um, but we, we typically get, how do I phrase it? We get more creative depending on what the initial response rate and talent pool looks like, right? Yes. So if we're hitting walls, we'll get real creative. If we're not hitting walls, we keep doing what's working.

Cool.

But if I was to say like an 80/20, the most important thing is getting that story in front of them in a compelling way about the company. So then it's hard for them to refuse and they're like, they get really excited. Am I right in saying that?

Yeah. If you notice, my, my trick is context. Just hone in on that word context on the candidate and then even context to the candidate before on what the opportunity looks like. Because if they have enough, these are smart people. If the role looks good and the context is right, the likelihood to have a conversation, why not? Mm-hmm. And you stand out from a lot of recruiters.

Yeah, um, that's awesome. And I love the emphasis on storytelling. Um, you kind of mentioned some of those areas that you double down on when you're selling the role, Jason, but is there any, like, again, 80/20 rule in terms of what you're gathering and what you're— what, what kind of story you're trying to tell to these candidates? If there was someone who hasn't done this before, what kind of advice would you give to them?

Yeah, the two best things you could do is phrase the pros of the company, like make it exciting. And then the other would be phrase and get them excited about the opportunity, right? So if it's a CMO role as an example, or VP of marketing, what are the teams you're gonna lead? What do budgets look like? What do other channels revenues look like? What type of people are on there? Or you get to build the team, right? So you sell to that side of it, right? So understanding the role becomes important, but I would say those two aspects are probably the most successful, less about who works there, more about is this gonna be something that's gonna advance the current person I'm after's career? Is this gonna be exciter for their career? Is it gonna be lateral? Talking about that and then really positioning the company, especially, you know, a lot of brands, there's a lot of me-tos out there, very competitive. So finding those nuances and that might be the founder story. As an example, or their why, or, um, you know, sometimes I'll drop a press link on who their investor is. But yeah, exciter about the company and exciter about what the role can do for their career.

Yeah, I just want to go back and emphasize that it really does all start with like the company and how good the company is. It's like trying to cook a, I don't know, a pasta dish with really crappy ingredients, it's always going to be harder, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. But I'd say not every company is amazing, right? Not every crew is going to have an Athletic Greens, AG1 logo, etc. And so what that does is how do you make it look good to the candidate, which also means to the client, you have to set expectations of what good looks like, right? And so don't forget, good to people is so different. And so there's ways to do this for every company because the talent type is going to be different.

Yes. Okay, that makes sense. So it's like there's levels to it, isn't there, uh, in terms of the companies and the companies they will— the candidates they will attract at those, those companies.

Exactly. And I, I also say, like, if I can't put a story together and I don't think people are going to want to work here, I won't take the deal on. So, like, if you've taken the deal on, you should be able to do what we just talked about.

Yeah. Okay, cool. And if you're not seeing it pieced together in your mind, it's not worth the hassle because you can't give a powerful enough pitch. Am I right in saying that?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're, we're in the business of putting people to work, right? That's how we get paid. So why waste your time if, like, you can't get excited about it? How are you going to get a candidate excited about it?

Yeah, this is where I think so many recruiters fall short, is that it's, it's more about the transaction and they don't think about that, which is like hardly any recruiter I speak to thinks about that. So it's really just important and valid point that if you are not excited about it and it just feels like a bit of a shit role how is another candidate going to get excited unless you kind of lie? And that's not really right.

And then, and then the whole strategy I spoke about doesn't work because they're like, oh, this wasn't 7-star service. Also, at the end of the day, um, with these candidates, like, your reputation precedes yourself, and most recruiters do niche down. So just, you, you always want to kind of keep that in mind. Um, so, so yeah, yeah, awesome, man.

Um, one thing I want to just quickly touch on, this wasn't in the questions, Jason, is like mindset and I know your mastermind has a big— just because that was your first, uh, answer, but I'm just curious, what else are you doing outside of the mastermind to like, um, improve your mindset or maintain your mindset? Are you naturally just a super driven guy and that's quite an easy thing that comes to you, or are there other things that you're doing to help you?

Yeah, so definitely super driven. Everything I have is from, you know, my own blood, sweat, and tears. So I'm just kind of that run-through-walls guy. But also, I've learned investing in yourself is super important. So, I do have a performance coach. He's non-business related. It's all about personal. It's all about growth. It's all about— I like to say one of the things I created that group was because I didn't per se know what good looked like, right? So, if I don't know, I need to find ways to get there or create good, and eventually, I need to become good. And so, that's what I chase and what I do. But Yeah, I mean, mindset is something you got to invest in, right? And in this game with people and services, it's all over the place, right? What your highs, your lows, your dopamine hits, you're smacked in the mouth, offer declined, et cetera. And so really what I've just tried to do is surround myself again by good people, leverage people who can bridge the gaps that I have, right? You know, I wouldn't consider myself the most empathetic person. And so sometimes I need coaching around that, right? And then that ends up helping me within my business as an example. But yeah, I seek it out. I read I read books, I listen to podcasts, stuff like yours, right? Seeing, seeing who's a top biller and what are they doing? What do I need to add to my toolkit? Right? Like exactly just that. And so, you know, that's kind of how I approach things, but I go after it because it's not something that's just going to come to you.

Yeah. Love that, man. Can't, can't believe how quickly this has gone, dude. Is there anything we haven't mentioned that you would like to finish off the pod with? We covered everything, which is a lot. We have covered a lot.

Yeah, I think I'm pretty good. I mean, I would just say to the recruiters out there, your candidates are your best friends. They're a resource in your toolkit that a lot of times are underutilized and you're already talking to them. So why not ask the right question? Why not build the relationship? Right. And so, yeah. And then, you know, if you, if you can, Always have cold email going is what I'd also say.

And I'm definitely going to check out Clay. That's really fascinated me.

But thank you, dude.

I really appreciate you coming on. Lots of wisdom bombs dropped in this pod. And yeah, just thank you for your time. Really appreciate it.

Awesome, fellas. Well, I appreciate being here, Sam and Ben. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you, mate.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning into this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.