This Recruiter Billed £255K In Her First Year. Here's How....

Hello, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Amy Holder. Amy joined the Adecco Group in 2021, and within her first year was billing £255K. She also won the Recruiter of the Year award. But before joining the Adecco Group, Amy's mindset was the biggest thing holding her back. It really got in the way of her reaching her full potential. With self-awareness and a relentless pursuit to become a better version of herself, she started to flourish. On today's episode, we're going to discuss Amy's go-to BD strategies that she used to build six figures, the best way to build a brand new desk in a new market. Amy's going to tell us how she went from accepting any job to winning her dream clients, and we're going to be talking about Amy's personal journey with her own mindset and how she managed to transform it. As usual, guys, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this and let's get into it, shall we? Amy, welcome to the podcast.

Hello, how are you?

Yeah, really good, thank you. Me and Sam are super excited, uh, to speak to you today. You have a very impressive track record, and yeah, I'm just really looking forward to, um, asking you some questions and picking your brains as to what you've learned over the last 6, 7 years in recruitment. So again, thank you so much, and let's jump into the first question if that's okay with you.

Yeah, let's go for it.

So, um, what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

So I really like this question. There's so many things I thought I could go into, but I think for me it's actually— it's more all about your mindset and your strategy. I think for me, without a plan, you can't succeed. Like, I'm a massive planner, plan every part of my life, sometimes too much, but It's really led me well in recruitment because I'm really, really process-driven. Sometimes it may be a little bit to my detriment because where I am such a planner, my action can sometimes be slower. But if you can find the balance of knowing what you're going to do each day, I think that is so, so important for successful outcomes. So planning, knowing what you're going to do in recruitment, and then putting that into action so that you don't miss anything otherwise that might be really simple and can lead to results.

That's really— I'm almost, dare I say, a little bit jealous of people that are really, really process-driven. Or like, I'm not because I don't— like, I don't think I'm— I think I'm good at processes or building systems, but it doesn't come naturally to me. I've really had to work at it and practice and, and do it. And I'm always curious with people that are very process-driven, like, how did it happen? Were you— was it drummed into you when you were younger? Did you just have a fascination with processes and systems? Like, Where did that come about?

I honestly don't— I don't know. Like, I'm just so— I have to be organized. I'm one of these people that if I don't know what I'm doing, I feel like I, I'm chaotic. Um, to the point where it's, it's probably embarrassing really. Like, on my phone, on my notes every day, even on the personal side, I have like a tick list of things that I need to achieve and get done because it just gives me that sense of even if you feel like you haven't done anything, you look back and think, well, I've ticked all of these 5 things off. Even at the weekend, I'll put bloody, oh, I need to go food shopping and I need to tidy the house. But it's just to make sure you get that done. So I think I've always just been somebody that likes structure. My dad, he's very structured, um, so I think growing up around that, he had his, like, he would always go for a run at this time at the weekend, or he would always sometimes, like, I can't think of the word where you do the same thing over and over, um, habitual. Yeah, habitual, exactly. So I think I've just picked up from that, and then I find it works for me. And if I don't have those things in place, that's when I feel out of control, and I like to feel in control. So when I've got a list, I know I can be in control of what's on it and get it done. And if not, then I just feel like, oh my goodness, I don't know, I don't know what I've done today and what I need to do.

I only got a list like quite late into my career, and I'm like, oh my God, how did I operate through the day without a basic list? It's quite funny thinking back on it now.

Yeah, for sure. But I think it's so easy. One of the things that I found when I'm making lists is it's so easy to keep adding things on, but actually you have to be really, really strict with yourself and say, okay, there's this whole long list of things I need to do, or in recruitment, there's a whole long list of people I need to call, but actually, fundamentally, these 3 things are the most important thing that I need to do today to feel like I've had a successful day, or this is the process I need to follow to know that I'll get results. And then you have to align it with, like, this is today, and then this has to then be done tomorrow, and create that process flow that way to make sure that you're covering the main things that are going to get you where you need to be. Because sometimes the rest of it can just become a bit of noise otherwise, and you, you give yourself too much to do and then you don't get anything done.

Yeah, definitely. When you think of processes and systems throughout your career, what have been some of the most powerful ones you've created, do you think, that have made an impact on moving the needle forward?

Um, I don't know if you'd call it a process, but like day plans is a really simple process that every recruiter needs to do. And for me, that literally looks like 10-15 minutes at the end of my day, creating an exact structure of what my day needs to look like the following day, depending on how my week's panning out. So how much BD activity I need to do, um, what job I'm going to be working, what that list of candidates will look like. Will I be looking on LinkedIn Recruiter, or will I be looking on a different platform to be able to find those candidates? So knowing where I'm going to go for that is a massive one. And then as well, with the business development activity, my Excel tracker that I use to be able to identify clients that I've had some form of relationship with that might be warmer for me to then have that systematic approach of contacting them to try and transition them into terms of business clients where I can have workable jobs and create that relationship. So those are my two go-tos, that day plan and that tracker for my clients as well.

Interesting. This kind of, kind of brings us on to the next question. When I first saw this, I was like, wow, that's insane. Um, in your first year, you did $255K and won 29 clients. Is that right, Amy? Yeah, yeah, that is insane. That's like very abnormal and very impressive. So I'm really curious, how did you do that? Because Like, for, for someone to do that in their first year is, is very rare, I think, from what I've heard in the recruitment space.

I think just to cover though, it was my first year working perm, but it wasn't my first year in recruitment. So I'd already had my 4 years of being crap in recruitment doing contract, like, and so it was never like an overnight success, but it's because I knew what I needed to do. I always, always wanted to do permanent recruitment Which is funny because I speak with contracts consultants, they're like, oh my goodness, how could you go from contract to perm? It's so much slower. Like, why would you do that? But I don't know, I just always had this internal gut feeling of perm is my calling. Like, I need to do perm, I really want to do it. And so I had this opportunity at Adecco to be able to fully immerse myself in perm, and I felt like I had something to prove to myself because I was finally able to do that. And so being given that chance, I was just really relentless in my approach. I knew what worked and, and knew where I had failed last time, and so I took everything that I'd learnt to embed that into my desk. So it was all about knowing my market, and knowing who struggled to hire, and most importantly, what they were struggling with. What were their problems, so that I could actually be pitching them solutions, rather than just calling and saying, "Oh, you got any jobs?" or "I've got a candidate." What is really troubling you? Is it your location? Is it a lack of skillset in a certain area? Culture? And then working closely with those clients to pitch solutions. So, I think I'm someone that loves to help, and I've got that as my tagline, right, the caring recruiter, because I genuinely do care about the outcomes, and it might sound a little bit counterproductive, but it isn't always related to a fee for me. Yes, you need the fees to bill, and to make money, and to keep your boss off your back, but being a sounding board for clients worked really well as well. So, Being someone that's a bit of a go-to to advice. It might be competitor analysis, or salary bandings, benefit packages. Talking through that with clients, and being a listening ear, so that when the timing's right for hires, they think, Amy really helped me with this, let's give her a go, or she'll be able to support me. So, definitely, don't just be so focused on fee. Be in touch with clients when they don't need to hire. Build those relationships. Give, give, give. And I'm a big believer of that will come back. Um, and then when I, I did have a live role, I made sure that I delivered and, and gave a service that they were happy with to get them those referrals into new clients or to continue working with them over the long term.

Really interesting. I mean, did you find that there was a balance you had to strike between giving, uh, value to clients? Because in my brain, whenever people say that, I'm like, there's only so many hours in the day. And if you were to give all the time, you probably, you probably spend your whole day just on the phone with people. So how did you in your brain decide, Amy, when the right time was to give value and how much value to give? Was that ever something that came up, or—

Yeah, that's a great question, Sam, because I think sometimes you can, you can have clients and you can find yourself in a trap of, okay, well, I'm giving them so much free information that I would usually save for my exclusive or retained clients. And I'm never getting anything in return. So I think intrinsically, you know, when a client's taking the piss a little bit. But what I found is, let's say I had a client that I'm working with in Cambridge and they're actually a client that I have terms of business agreed with. We have a good working relationship and naturally I'm giving them loads of free information because they're my client and that's what I'm there to do, help them with the whole picture. In that Cambridge area, then part of my business development activity would be calling around and finding out other people's troubles. And sometimes it might not even be on the phone, but I might have had a brief conversation and know their troubles, and then I'd put them into a call list or something, and I would create a newsletter. So one that I did in January was, um, oh gosh, what was it? It was something to do around the struggles of attracting talent in January, because that's what a lot of people actually were really struggling with in my market. And I sent that out to my call list in Cambridge that I'd created because I knew there was 25 or 30 that were struggling. So it was just, it was a creation which took me 30 minutes on Canva to make something like that and then being able to send that out to clients. And it's not always I'm on the phone to them talking, but they're getting something of value that's really quick for me to do in their inbox that helps. And then they'll come back to me or that will just, that will just stay in their mind. Oh, Amy's just sending me this 3-monthly, she'll be able to help. So it doesn't take as long as you think. Once you've got 2 or 3 in the area that are worried about location, it's probably likely the other 30 companies in that area are struggling with the same thing. So you can create that document, send that out to your call list, and then start the traction that way.

Love that. And I think that was such an important point to bring up, that there's other ways to give value apart from being on the phone with them and spending an hour speaking to them. And you strategically chose how you were going to give value, and it was still— it would still give them a lot of value, but you could spend 30 minutes and still move the needle forward.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I still think phone is king. I'm really jumping back into business development at the moment because unfortunately in the medtech space there's been a lot of, um, performance-based layoffs and just a lot of company redundancies that, that aren't heaps of people hiring right now. And there's a lot of people on the market, so really had to dig back into business development. And being on the phone, you can't beat it, but you have to make use of your time, so you have to find those other avenues of how can I service as many people as possible and try and get the return off that at the same time?

Really interesting. You kind of alluded to it already, um, Amy, but that first year when you won 29 clients— again, like, just an insane amount of clients for your first year in perm— um, what was the most effective strategy for you to win those 29 clients, do you think?

Um, so providing that value, but I think For me, it's just about the human approach. When I, I ask my clients for feedback, I, I ask them like, why are you working with me? Um, what do you like? What don't you like? I'm a bit of a person that loves self-development and reflection and trying to be 1% better each day. And so it's just about the human approach. A lot of the time, I said this before, but like when I first started in recruitment, I wasn't myself, so I was bringing on clients that didn't align with my values. I would be talking in a way that maybe wasn't me. I would be so focused on people pleasing that I wouldn't give them enough of, like, give them the consultative experience that they maybe needed because they weren't paying enough or they didn't have the right benefits. Once I started to be human and just stop putting these clients on a pedestal, we're all the exact same people, right? Just because they're a CEO and I'm a recruiter, I'm actually here to do a really good job for you, and I know what I'm doing. So I think once I started showing up as myself and being really consultative with them and telling them sometimes the hard truths that they didn't want to hear, and I think that actually made me stand out from other recruiters, because if you're competing with people who are early in their career and they're just, yes, yes, yes, I can do this, and then they don't deliver, that client's never going to be happy. But what I try to do with every call, even when I've got those relationships, I will always take a new spec with a client regardless of if it's the same, because something will change. and I want to be able to get them to say, "Oh, I've not had that question before, that's really great, I've never thought of that," because you're getting them to think outside the box, to be able to then hire that right person in, and if you're asking those hard questions, it's another reason that you'll stand out. So, I just, I hope that answers your question, but I think it's just a case of being you and asking those tough questions to get them thinking, "Oh, this person's different." Absolutely, and 100% does answer, and I think, um, you know, from, from firsthand experience, I know that if you do it in the right way, people like to be challenged.

And I think just saying yes, you know, I think is a very quick way to get yourself off the phone and not, not necessarily leave a bad taste in your mouth. But I think you lose a little bit of respect if you're not willing to challenge people on the things they're doing wrong. So I suspect that once you've got people on the sales call, they bought into you because of that reason. What was that initial trigger, though, like to actually get the call or the conversation in the first place for those 29 clients? What was the most effective way to get them on your radar, do you think?

Uh, referrals is massive. So I think a lot of the time, if I've had success with another client, the— I don't— it's probably the case for all recruitment businesses, um, working in different niches, but the medical sector in particular is very incestuous. Like, everyone knows everyone, they've all worked in the same companies. So if I'd been working with someone, say, Ben, I was working with you and you'd had a really good experience at your last company that you were working at, I'd say, look, I've really wanted to work at this company for a while, I know you obviously moved from that company. Is there anyone that you could put me in touch with? Because I think I'd be really— be able to help them as well. Um, and if you've helped them and you've got them a job, or if you've helped them and you've placed them and they've had a good experience, then why wouldn't they? And they'll just give you a name, and then I'd say— I'd call Sam and say, hi Sam, um, Amy from Adecco. Ben actually recommended I give you a call because I've done X, Y, and Z for him. Um, he said that these are some of the struggles. Would it be worthwhile having a conversation, or, you know, I wouldn't actually ask a closed question, but yeah, I'd say, I know you mean a conversation about how we can help. So referrals is absolutely massive, and I'm a big advocate for your LinkedIn referrals as well. So anyone I work with, I always ask them to pop a referral on LinkedIn, because for me, if I'm going to a restaurant, if I'm going on holiday, you best know I'm on TripAdvisor looking to see what everyone else thinks. And people want to work with others that they know have done a good job or had a good experience. And that's the same in recruitment. So massively referrals.

That's really— it's really awesome to hear that. Something so simple but so effective. Do a really good job and ask for a referral. And not enough people really talk about that, which is, you know, I'm so glad that you brought that up. Would you say the majority of the 29 clients came from referrals, would you say? Uh, Amy?

No, I wouldn't. I would probably say like 40%. The rest of them, I'm trying to think what year is 2024? What was it like, 2022? 2022, or back end of 2021, 2022, which, let's be honest as well, was a booming year for recruitment, um, especially in the medical space, back end of COVID lots of money, lots of budgets. So if I couldn't pull clients or hire in that year, then there was no way I was ever going to be able to. So it was a little bit of an easier market, and the rest of that came from, um, it might have been leads chasing that I found and then having good candidates that I would be able to spec in and talk about. Or it might have just been, I'm really, I'm a big believer in mailshots, but done in the right way. So I know a lot of people, if you're just sending it anywhere, the spray and pray approach that everybody talks about when you're starting recruitment, that's terrible advice, don't do it. But actually, if you can tailor your mailshots specifically to clients, so, in Manchester, I've got this really, really good candidate, they've got heaps of regs knowledge, and they only want to work with wound care businesses, Well, I've got a whole list of clients that are only wound care, and so I would send that candidate to all my wound care businesses saying, this is all they have experience in, they want to stay within this area, um, I know you do wound care, would it be worth making an introduction between both of you? It's so much more tailored because they think, oh, you know my business, yes, this is the type of person I'd want, and so you get much better feedback on that. So if you're ever sending mailshots, do it, but my tips would be have it location-specific or product-specific to the client that you're sending them to, to get much more positive feedback from it.

Love that. Great advice. We've done 3 podcasts in the last 5 days, and speccing in good candidates and being hyper-specific has come up every single time. And it's just interesting that you say the same, that it's, it's about delivering a really good candidate in front of the client, but also being hyper-specific and making it personalized. That formula, when you get it right, seems to be absolutely gold, not just with you but for so many other recruiters we're speaking to. It's really—

absolutely. But I think the important thing as well is when you're speccing in candidates, it can very easily then become transactional, where, oh, can we just speak with this candidate? Yeah, no worries. And then you've got nothing else off the back of it. You've got no job, you've got no relationship. So if somebody does like the look of a candidate, it's really vital to me that I get them on the phone and see if they're the kind of client I would like to work with, and we could have a relationship and a partnership going forward. Don't get me wrong, that's gold standard. Sometimes they won't be, but there's a candidate who they really like and it just works, and it's a quick fee but it's not long-term. And there will be those out there, but you want to try and make that relationship go to the next level so that you're future-proofing your business as well.

That's a really good point. What have you found is the best way to respond to, to clients when they say, yeah, interested? Is there like Because as you mentioned, like, if you do it the wrong way, you're kind of— you could lose out on the opportunity and not necessarily get the fee that you're looking for or build the relationship. What's the best way to take it past that point, do you think?

Yeah, so I had it this week actually, and this was probably an example of one where we aren't going to work together because they're not a client that values recruiter relationships. So I knew this company were looking for a regs manager, um, in the north of the UK. And I had someone who was really, really local for them, and I'd spoken with the candidate a week prior, she's still available, but I would never send a full name CV. It's more of a, I actually don't send a CV, in the body of the email I will send why I think they're good for them. So they came back saying, actually, this person sounds really good, we want to get them in front of our director, can you send a full CV? Well, with GDPR nowadays, absolutely not until I've told the candidate, got their permission, and told them the company. That's a big save for us now. So I just went back and said, more than happy to send a full CV. The candidate's aware that I'm working her profile, but equally, I need to get permission from them to send the full CV, and therefore, they're going to want to know information about the business. Let's book a call so we can make this productive for both of us. Does 2 o'clock sound good? But this client did not see the value in a call. They just wanted a conversation with the candidate. Spoke with the candidate, actually, lo and behold, they'd got an offer the day before, which was great for them. 'But then, if you don't want that conversation with me, I do get it, because I'm just a recruiter in your inbox. But equally, I need that candidate to have a good experience, and I need a client that sees value in working in partnership with a recruiter. And if you can't do that, it is very hard to do, but I have to walk away from that business, because they're just going to cause more stress than I need in the long run, and it's not worth it.' So, that one didn't come to fruition, but that was an example of how I responded.

Yeah, great response. I feel like it's a very logical— you can't really argue with that response, right? The way that you've phrased it, it's like you're doing a job properly and you're— you've got both, both interests at heart in terms of the client and the candidate, which is, uh, interesting. I just want to drill into that a bit more because I find that, um, that a lot of recruiters struggle with that, you know. Um, there was— I want to go back to the point when you said you were working recruitment and you felt like you weren't yourself, taking on clients that weren't right for you, and then you transitioned to the opposite. What made you— what was that point in time when you were like, I'm done with this, I want to move towards this? Was it a moment? Was it a decision? And can you tell us like how that came about?

Yeah, I think it's actually from my— probably one— the first business that I was in where I was working there for about 4 years or so, and it was very hand-to-mouth in terms of getting a job on, filling it for the client, and it was contract, and I don't think I was I wasn't as good, I didn't know my craft as well anyway, but I wasn't building relationships. And so they'd work with me for one, and then I wouldn't hear from them again. And that was probably partly on me, but equally, I did realise I was working with clients who didn't value recruiters. And the way I knew that was they weren't— they were bailing on meetings that we might have booked in, they weren't giving me enough time if we were taking a spec. And even since I've transitioned to perm, because specs are important on contract, but it moves a lot quicker, but let's say if I'm working perm, they just don't— they're the types of clients where they aren't giving me what I need to do an effective job for them and the effective job for a candidate. And I was finding that I would place a candidate, and sometimes the candidate thought, oh, actually, this job hasn't been right for me. And that's heartbreaking for me because I want to place people that are going to be there for the long term. And I thought, right, something needs to change. Where I gave myself an assessment of what's going wrong, And the candidates that were placed in roles where maybe they didn't feel that it was the right opportunity for them in the long run, or anything like that, it was because that client hadn't given me, excuse me, enough of their time. And so, I hadn't been able to qualify them effectively enough for me to feel like I'd done the best job that I can. And so, now I just hold myself to such a high standard, because that was when I was a junior recruiter. And you do, you know, you learn quickly, and you fail forward. But now it's a case of, I've had enough of clients that don't see us as a partner. We do a really hard job, and it's not sending a CV and placing a candidate. You know, there's so much that goes into recruitment. We're a therapist, we're a career coach, we do all of these things behind the scenes, and it's mentally draining for everybody involved. And the more you can lower that mental drain by having good relationships and clients that follow through and say what they will do, and they say what they're going to do and they do it, then it just makes your life better, and you have such good relationships with them, um, and that then leads on to referrals, and it just makes your life easier. So I think the turning point was just getting fed up of clients faffing about, not doing what they said, but also reflective— reflecting that that was on me, and I was the only person that could change that experience.

Love that. I mean, we have to apologize because we are going off track from the questions that we sent you, just because you're giving us so much juicy information here. And so this is what means around, bounce around, around, like, oh, that's interesting, that's interesting. So that's what we're doing. So apologies in advance.

It's good, it's a good test.

Cool. Um, one thing I would love to go back to, if that's okay, you said something really interesting which I love, which is finding problems and pitching solutions. And I feel like most recruiters just don't know how to do that, even really seasoned recruiters who have been in the game for a long time. It's almost like they just, they haven't been taught how to do it properly. So is there any tips you could give as to how to find the problem and pitch a solution or an example, just so people listening can kind of wrap their heads around that?

Yeah, and if anyone's listening, like, don't worry, I was never taught either. I learned from podcasts or like just Googling and developing myself, because I was taught, call up, have you got a job, sell a candidate, if not, move on. Like, high dials, but it never really got me anywhere. So what I do is, say if I'm calling someone for business development, and I've been using that this week, is I'll say my intro, and then I would just say something like, and it will always be true from what I found the following week. So I've been speaking with clients, or I've been speaking with candidates. Let me tell you what I did yesterday that had some really good response. So I've been speaking with quite a few medical device clients that are looking to ramp up their hiring at the moment, but they have found that a lot of the applications they're getting through just aren't strong enough, particularly on advert responses. I'm curious, have you been finding— how have you been finding that? Have you been finding the same results? And they might say— they might just say, no, absolutely not, we've actually found this. But if they're opening up the conversation, I'm not calling them and asking about appointment. I'm calling them and saying, one of my clients has had this problem, I'm curious if that's impacting you as well. And then off the back of that, I had, um, about 6 connected BD calls for 6 outcalls yesterday, and I was And that's such a small amount, but I was on the phone for like 25 minutes, which you don't really want on a BD call. But that, that opener, people were just giving me so much information. And I made a note off the back of it. I think I got like 5 leads, an introduction to a new manager, one meeting booked, and another hiring manager name that I could contact. And they just opened up about all their struggles. Then from that information I got about their struggles, um, someone that I was calling said that their location is super hard for them to hire into. Someone said this particular niche area is really, really tough to find people with this certain skill set. So those two things are going to now form my business development. And I would say, right, I'm working with people in South Wales. I was speaking with a few clients the other day and they found location is the hardest thing to get people involved. How are you going about enticing people into your business? Let them open up and just let them tell them your problems. And then the whole goal of that is, right, I can help with this, but I can't tell you how now. Let's book a 30-minute call to see if we're a right fit.

Mm, really interesting. Absolutely. That was a mini masterclass in how to approach a BD call. Um, Amy, I absolutely love that approach. Such a different way to how most recruiters think, which is like, do you need any, do you need any candidates, yes or no? And, and you're going completely different, which is, these are the problems I'm hearing, are you struggling with them? And it opens up, which is a completely different approach. It's brilliant.

And don't get me wrong, I still trip over my words and I still like sometimes have terrible BD calls. Quite often, but what I found is when I first started in recruitment, I was really emotionally attached to the outcome. And because I'm so emotionally involved in my job and I really want to have success myself and for my clients, and I feel this responsibility— I have candidates in my inbox every day, like, are there any jobs? Like, how are you getting on? And I would love to place all of them, I can't. So when I'm doing BD, I almost have these candidates in my ear like, come on, I've got to find a job for them. but I have to detach myself from the outcome because I said this to my team the other day, if you are doing every business development call, or every day you are thinking the only sign of success is me pulling a job, you're going to be very unhappy in your role because it's so difficult to pull a job. So instead, let's redefine what a positive business development outreach call or a successful day looks like. And for me, it might be that I've found a few bits of information to move my business forward. Got an introduction to someone new, got a meeting, or got a lead. But we have to redefine that. And if we're getting things that can help us move our business forward and we're doing the right things, then we will get to pulling a job. But it isn't going to happen every day. And so you have to emotionally detach and think, what else can I get that will make me know this has been positive for me?

Love that. That's the coaching side coming out on you, uh, Amy. I can see a natural coach in your personality, which is amazing. Oh, I know.

It's only been the last couple of years that I've been a bit more on the coachy side, um, taking that responsibility for my team. But I absolutely love it. Like, I I just love seeing people, the penny drop moment, and they then implement it and they have success and they're like, holy shit, like, yeah, it does work. You think, yeah, it does. Absolutely. It's great to see.

That's awesome. And this kind of brings us into the next question. You went from top biller, I'm guessing a consultant role, to business manager. You got a promotion and/or change of role to business manager. Am I right in saying that?

Yeah, yeah.

Awesome. What's been the biggest difference, you think, in your role as business manager? What's changed?

Honestly, not a lot, to be honest, because I was already operating at a business manager level. Because what that means for our business is I was doing 360, so I'm bringing in the business for me but also the wider team, because, um, we were a very new team. We're only about 2 years in for life science, um, and it's really just more of the same. I said to my boss, I don't have a massive desire to manage a team right now, I want to focus on billings. But actually, I guess that has gone out the window a little bit because I'm not the person that manages and does all the spreadsheets and is banging on the drum about, you have to hit your targets. But they do lean on me for support, and I run meetings when my boss is absent. And then I think the difference, if there's one I'm pulling, is that training piece. I've found a passion for training recruiters to be better in certain areas, and with my team wanting to be better at business development or candidate qualification or lead chasing, I've been creating mini courses and PDFs that they can follow to support them with that, and how to build out a market from scratch and what looks like a good day. So that's been really fun, I think. So nothing's really changed except taking on a bit more coaching, but my role of pulling jobs and placing jobs is still exactly the same. I've just got bigger bloody targets.

So is there anything— because I feel like when you go into a coach mentorship role there's a lot you learn about yourself because there's so many different things you have to do. Is there anything that you've learned about yourself while going more into like a mentorship role? And is there any things that have come up that you're like, oh, I'm better than that that I thought, or, or I need more work on that? Or is there anything like that that's come up during that transition?

Yeah, I think so. I think I'm more patient than I thought I was. All of my family and friends always say you're not patient, like you've got no patience whatsoever. Maybe in my personal life, perhaps not. But when I'm working with people who are eager to learn, I have a lot of patience, especially if they are really open to it. If I can tell they don't really care and they're just there because they have to be, then I don't have the patience for that. But for people that genuinely want to improve, yeah, I'm there. I think actually it's been a real test of, you know, sometimes you just have to do things before you're ready. And mindset's always been a massive thing for me, and I'm a big advocate for people working on their mindset because I struggled with mine so much. And that little voice in my head being like, you're not good enough for this, like, you've— oh, how, how do you think you can train these people when you're not a professional coach? But actually, I shut that voice up and I think, well, the things I'm saying and they're implementing is working. So it, it's helped me to continue to improve my mindset and to stop that little voice winning a lot, which I found if anyone does anything new, that's probably something that we all face, is that you have that, that intrinsic noise. So shutting that out has been a challenge for me and just getting on with it and, um, and making it happen.

Oh, that's really interesting. I'm guessing through the, through the act of just doing it and, and proving to yourself that you can do it, or at least try and fail and succeed, it shuts down that little voice. That's what I found with me as well. Is that, is that the same with you? Just by pure action and throwing yourself Yeah, absolutely.

It goes back to what I said at the beginning, really, where I'm such a planner, and so I overthink and overthink everything that I don't take action. But I actually, when I wrote my goals out for this year, it was the year of action, and I've been really sticking to that and just doing things and getting uncomfortable. Because the more times you put yourself out of your comfort zone and you try new things, you're crap at it at first, and then you get feedback and you develop. And I think as long as you're doing that, then you're doing something right because you're becoming better than you were yesterday.

Yeah, absolutely love that. I would love to go back to a question that we kind of missed out, but we're going to go back to because I think it's really important, um, building a desk from scratch, because I think there's so many lessons to learn, um, about building a desk from scratch. And one of the most important things for me is just getting that information, getting that data to, to really learn about a market. And so maybe you could tell us, what, what are the main components that allow you to build a desk from scratch successfully, do you think?

Yeah, that's— there's, and there's so much that comes into it. And I think if you ask different people this question, their answer will be different because it's about finding what works for you. And this has been the third time in my career I've had to build a desk from scratch, so I have learned a lot along the way. And it might not even be the last time because I would love to eventually— I work UK at the moment, across the whole of the UK, uh, well England, um, but eventually I'd love to go into the US. And so I'm thinking, oh, I've got to build that from scratch as well. So I'm going to listen back to this when I do to give myself some tips. Even if you know what you've got to do, it can feel really hard and a big uphill battle. Mindset's all about being patient and being driven. Both of those things go hand in hand because you're not going to see success immediately, so you have to motivate yourself to keep going, and you have to be taking those small wins that we've talked about earlier. On this talk along the way. And, um, the mantra that I remind myself of is, you're only going to fail when you quit. Um, and that's what I keep telling myself when I'm building a market, is it will come. If you're going to quit, then you've failed. If not, you will get results. So the biggest thing to do is, obviously, Ben, you mentioned that information piece, so mapping out your market, understanding who is hiring in that space. For perm, it is a lot easier. Everyone hires perm. For contract, it's harder, but it's easy once you see people's CVs and understand where they've worked contract. That becomes your list. So, permanent, contract, identifying those trends of who's hiring, then knowing how they hire. So, are they using agencies? Is it just internal? Do they just post on a job board and hope for the best? Like, how are they hiring and what problems are they facing with hiring? And then, for those companies, I would then create a list of 30, 40, and sometimes it's because I know they hire a lot and they use recruiters. Sometimes it's heart-led of, I really like this company, I want to work with them, and I will tell them that. Um, and I just— if I love a certain company and I feel a pull to them, then why not put them on my list? Um, so I created about a list of 50 clients, 20 I really wanted to, the others were just targets because it made sense. And then they got regular contact points with those newsletters that we spoke about earlier, calls about problem solving, candidate specs, trying to convert them into clients. And all of that information was found out, typically 90%, through speaking with candidates. Candidates are king. Like, you're helping a candidate, and you will tell them about the market, and I will tell them who's hiring, even if I'm not working with them. And this, this company's on your doorstep, have you thought of them? Oh no, I haven't. Oh, you know, I'll give them a call. But I'm just freely, again, helping them, and then they will give me information. I'm leaving this company, but there's 5 others that are leaving. The culture is really bad, I'd then call that client and say, look, I understand that there might be cultural issues, or actually, that'll get their back up, but I'd say, like, companies have been struggling with culture, how has that impacted you? And then you want to then try and support them. But I know I'm going off piece here, but I found recently as well, if there's companies with culture issues and they're willing to change it, I would love to work with them and help them with that and give them ideas. If there's company with a bad culture and they're not willing to change it, they'll come off my target client list. And I know some recruiters will want to work with them and help them, but I want to work with companies where candidates are going in and staying. So yeah, it's just, there's so much information that you can follow, but speak with the candidates to find out all of the information. Create your list, find out where people are struggling, pitch in with newsletters, problem-solving, salary help, candidate specs, and rinse and repeat every single day until you're bored of it. But you will start to see the results. It's doing that same thing over and over. But if it's not working, find out what's not working and change it slightly to get different results.

Really interesting. I get 90% from candidate. That's really interesting. 90% of the information from candidate calls. Just a good reminder to, you know, the gold, as you say, candidates, candidates are king if you're going to get information because that, that's super valuable, isn't it? So basically a key to unlocking client information and client doors.

Yeah, you want great relationships with candidates. I remember when I first started, and I thought I had nothing to offer them, but they're so lovely, and you do have things to offer them because they want help. You've really not got a lot on, but you have time to then go out and find something for them because you don't have a big network, but you want to understand exactly what they want, and you can say, I'm going to give you my time, but I need to know everything about you and what you like, what you dislike, and the companies you want to work with, why you want to work with them. Again, I'm just a massive note-taker. I type as I go, which is really bad for my step count because I'm not one of these people that can walk and talk. I'm like typing away all the notes, but it's really, really benefited me because I then use that information to help with my business development. So yeah, definitely use your candidates, give them something in return, and then use that information to help with your BD.

I feel like if I was ever to go back into recruitment and start a new desk, I would definitely follow speaking to candidates, because I've, I've heard that from not just you, Amy, from a couple other recruiters who have built, built new desks from scratch quite successfully, and they always go back to— they always start with the candidates. The candidates are the key to unlocking everything else when you're building a desk. I've just heard it so much now, it's really, really fascinating.

Absolutely. I actually had a friend that joined a recruitment business. He's not there now, but they were just saying, get on the phone and pull jobs, pull jobs, pull jobs. He had no recruitment experience, he didn't know how to be equal to save his life, and he had no candidates to be able to sell in. And it just didn't make any sense to me because he wasn't learning anything about his market, he was just calling for a transactional approach, and hated recruitment and left. And I thought, of course you bloody hate it, it's not what recruitment is. And I really felt for him, but yeah, I just think any company that's doing it in that way, it just screams it's so transactional to me. Find out candidates, find out pain points, and work with that and build long-term relationships rather than just calling and trying to get a job. Because it might give you a few quick wins, but it's not going to build you a business long term.

Yeah, and what you just said, only the most— one of the most important things is you're through the candidates, you're learning the pain points, the problems, and understanding the industry. And you can do 10 times a day if you want. So the amount of knowledge you're going to collect on, on your new industry is just insane. Like, uh, so effective for that reason as well.

Yeah, and you're learning who you want to work with then as a recruiter, and who time and time again are losing people because they're a terrible company. And it's sad to say, but they're out there, right? There's always bad businesses, and I don't want to touch them with a barge pole. Like, I would love to sell it, I'd probably be that person once they've sorted it out, I'll be there to help you, but I don't want to put people into a bad business. I'm here to have good businesses that I feel proud to work with and represent. Um, so yeah, you get a lot of gossip. People love to gossip. It's like, you know, they always say, oh no, don't speak badly about your job. To recruiters, that goes out the window.

They are there spilling the tea. Okay, you wouldn't believe, honestly, the gossip that goes in.

But yeah, it's fun. It keeps me entertained working from home. Good old gossip. I love that. Yeah.

So you obviously have these consultants around you that, um, are learning from you, being coached by you. What's the most common things they ask for help with, do you think?

Definitely business development. It's the hardest thing for a lot of people, and a lot of people are so scared to do it. And I get it because I was the same when I started. I'm still scared now. I have to hype myself up sometimes to get on the phone. Like, it's just natural because there's so much stigma around a cold call. Yeah, um, it does change quite often, but I would say, yeah, Building out a market is one of them, how to have more success doing business development, or sometimes as well, how to effectively qualify your candidates to support your business development activities. There's not really one size fits all, and I've had like a few people on LinkedIn DM me just asking for different bits of support, and so, it's become a bit of a passion project of mine, actually. I've been creating some material and sharing it with people, and I'm just a real advocate for recruiters and recruitment having a better name. The only way to do that is for recruiters to have better training and to do things in the right way, which I think is my underlying message in all of my training sessions, is you have to truly care about your candidates and clients, because if not, that's— they'll see through it. So yeah, but business development is probably the key. The key one.

Really interesting. And have you noticed— obviously we don't need to say anything negative about the people that you work with because I'm sure they're all fantastic— but have you noticed any major differences between consultants that absolutely smash it and the ones that maybe take a little bit longer to get to grips with what you're teaching?

Yeah, and I think our team's still junior and we're all— they're still learning the ropes, but they work so hard and do a great job. But I can definitely tell you, I worked in a different recruitment business when I first started, and I wasn't a top performer there, so I can even speak from experience of what I wasn't doing versus what top performers were doing, and throwing myself under the bus. So I think with top performers, the difference between then and now is consistency. So even when it's tough and you're just not having success and there's been a dropper and no one's answering the phone, It's so annoying, but you have to keep doing the basics. You have to keep showing up and doing business development every day and speaking with candidates to understand the state of the market, because it will change and you will get results. So my old, my first ever boss, he always used to say, just do the basics, you'll get results. And I was like, well, no, they're not getting me results, but they do. So I apologize to him for giving him crap all the time, because it did work. Um, create the day plan. Top performers know what they're doing every single day and stick to that day plan religiously. And they know their numbers. So actually, this is— I know my numbers on a few things, but we don't— at my company now, we don't have a massive, um, KPI number dashboard. So I would like to invest in that a bit more to know absolutely everything. But I know what my target is per year, what I need to hit per quarter, what that breaks down to per month, to know if I'm on track. Um, and then I guess finally, they just make it happen. Like, it's very easy to think, oh, this person's doing well, they're so lucky. I used to have that mindset of they're doing well and I'm not. They must have a better market than me. And sometimes they might have actually had a bit of an easier start, or they might be working something that's a bit more lucrative. But I was an excuses person, um, and I made excuses rather than take action. And it was only once I thought, I'm in control of what I do and the effort I put in, and changed that mindset and made it happen, that it started to fall into place.

Love that. I feel like you've been on quite a transformation in terms of mindset, Amy. I feel like that from what you were just telling telling me you were in a state of mind, which everyone does to some degree, but was there— what, what got you into that? I think I've already asked a similar question, but what got you into that kind of personal development mindset, increasing by 1% every day? Uh, was there like a moment? Was there someone you spoke to? And also, just on top of that, can you tell me some of the things you're doing on a daily basis in terms of mindset, like what meditation or anything like that?

Yeah, my friends, I'm always the go-to person if they need like a pick-me-up or they're feeling a bit neggy, and I get them out of And I think the only reason I'm good at that is because that used to be me. I was miserable and unhappy in my first recruitment job, and I didn't realize it. And part of that reason I wasn't seeing success is because I hated every day. Um, and that sounds so awful now, and I'm so grateful for that company because they gave me so many tools to learn how to recruit, but just there was something misaligning. And they— I ended up being made redundant just after COVID. I worked the whole of COVID and then they turned around and said, oh, you know, we're making redundancies and you're one of them, because I wasn't doing well enough. Like, I wasn't cutting it on the contract side. And I was so happy— I was so sad, and then I was so happy. And I thought, oh my God, this, this has been what's weighing me down. And then throughout lockdown, I had been reading self-development mindset books, um, improvement books, and I just became obsessed with How can I improve myself and how can I shift my mindset to feeling negative all the time? And don't get me wrong, I'm no guru. Like, I still have those days where I'm like, oh my gosh, everything's negative in the head and you have to work on it. Um, but I think that was the catalyst, being let go, not performing to what I knew I could because I hold myself to such a good standard. And then just realizing that I kept myself in that position for so long. I stayed in that company unhappy. And it's so easy. I see it time and time again. So many people stay unhappy in their job. Because they think it's easier to just stay there rather than leave. And so it was only once I left that I realized. So tips and tricks for me: everybody, I hope, has that little voice in their head. If anyone's head is silent, please message me after and tell me how, because mine is never. Um, but there's always that little voice. So as I was saying earlier, where it might say, oh, you know, you're not good enough, or you can't do this, listen and acknowledge it and say, okay, I hear you, but actually I am. So I will talk to myself in my head Maybe I need to be, like, assessed for that. I don't know. But if there's, if there's a negative voice in my head, I will just challenge it instantly in my head. I'll challenge that back and say, actually, I can do that. And here's an example of how I have. I also love a grateful list. 3 things in the morning where I wake up and I think, you know, you wake up sometimes, your alarm goes off, you think, oh, another day. It's so easy to do that, especially if it's been a tough time. But I'll think, okay, Woken up, I'm grateful that I have— I'm allowed to— I'm able to move my body and work out, which gets my ass to the gym. Um, or I'm really grateful for this, this, this. And then so when in the day something goes a bit wrong, I lean back to what was I grateful for this morning. It might be something as simple as the sun shining, and I'm a lover of the sun. I think, well, at least the sun's shining, you know, it could be worse. And just try and fall back on the positive things. And then that little voice in your head that is constantly— my voice today, excuse me— that little voice in your head that is constantly being negative to you slowly reframes to look for the positive things. It's so strange, but the more— it's a muscle, you can train it to look for the positive things. And the more you challenge it and train it, the easier it will just do it itself. Um, and that genuinely has been transformative. I'm a much nicer, more positive outlook person to be around than I was 5 years ago. Totally different.

So cool, Amy. I love to hear your transformation. And I've tried and still do the gratitude thing every day. It is insane when you actually stop and think of what you have in your life, of, you know, just technology, like a laptop. Some people don't have a laptop. Like, the fact that you can see, the fact that you can breathe, the fact that you have a business that you're happy in. Like, there's just so many— when you sit down and you actually list it, there's so many things to be grateful for. And what I ended up realizing was like, oh shit, I've I've actually got a lot in my life that I love, you know what I mean?

That abundance.

Yeah.

So I think it's really hard to do though, right? Ben and Sam, you clearly, you've got your own business, you've got big goals for yourself, and I'm the same. I've got these big goals I want to achieve, and where I still fall foul of this, and I need to— it's still a development point for me, is you always, you do always feel like you want more, or you can push yourself harder, or you can achieve more success. And for me, that's a real pivotal point, pivotal point for me. Tongue twister there. Because I have all these things I want to achieve, and comparison is the thief of joy. And I find myself comparing myself to people. I don't know their journey and I don't know their struggles. So if anyone listening is the same and they really struggle with, I want to be further along, what I'm trying to do is be a lot more kind with myself and think, look where you were 5 years ago. Look where you are now. Every step that you're taking every day is getting you closer to where you want to be. But my story has never been an overnight success, and there's some people out there that have, and that is great for them, and I am a bit envious. But I actually feel like because my story, it was such a struggle in the beginning— I was crap at my job, I had a rubbish mindset— I feel like a bit of an underdog sometimes, that I know I need to work hard but I know that that's relatable. And so I just need to be kind to myself and that other people can see if this girl was crap at her job, had a rubbish mindset and struggled, and now actually she's managing to achieve like top biller in certain areas, she's on podcasts, I can bloody do that as well. Um, and just, yeah, have that patience in yourself. And when you start to compare yourself to where you want to be to others, remember actually where you've come from to get to where you are now.

Absolutely. Great answer. Absolutely love that.

Very spiritual today.

That's what we want. We want a bit of strategy and a bit of spirituality as well. That's what it is. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it would be sacrilege if we didn't talk about personal branding because it sounds like you're quite into personal branding now. I mean, you, you know, describe quite a big passion about it when we talked about it last time. When did you start kind of getting involved with posting, personal branding? When, when was that aha moment? You're like, oh, I should really try this?

Yeah, it kind of just happened. I would say when I first started in recruitment, I only used LinkedIn as a source of posting jobs or connecting with candidates. That was it. Um, there was no traction there. Didn't really know about building a network. It's probably the last 2 years I've started to utilize the platform and create more of a personal brand for myself, um, outside of my business as well. Because I think my first role in recruitment, I didn't ever speak up at all. I didn't voice what I wanted, and it got me nowhere. So I'm a massive advocate of people having the confidence and knowing that it's okay to state what you want in your career in any shape or form. And as I said, I want to be that person, that voice that people can relate to, and feel confident in confiding in me, which is why that tagline is the caring recruiter. So I found that when I was doing my day job, and I was having calls with candidates and clients, and they were really resonating with what I was saying, So my LinkedIn became almost a stream of consciousness of talking about my thoughts or talking about the calls that I'd had in a confidential way, of course, but allowing that to influence what I was sharing and then sharing my struggles and other people's struggles and being really vulnerable. And I found that that then worked for me being related. Honestly, I feel like a little bit of a fraud talking about being a personal brand because if you look at my LinkedIn, there's— it's not this huge brand that I've created, but the engagement that I get and the messages that I get of helping people and then winning business from it, it's working. Um, and hopefully again, that's relatable, that if people have a small brand, it doesn't really matter about the number of followers, but it's actually what is that doing for you and what opportunities is that giving you. Um, yeah, just developed out of conversations really.

Yeah, I think there's— I think I'm really glad that you mentioned that last bit because I think it's a myth that you have to have this huge following to one, make a difference, and two, you know, actually make money from your following as well. You know, we've had clients that have had, you know, very humble and on the— as an outsider looking in, not a lot of engagement, but they're getting a lot of traction and the message that they're sending out is resonating with a very specific group of people. And some of our clients have made, you know, a huge amount of money from LinkedIn, talking like multiple six figures just from LinkedIn alone, let alone everything else they do. So yeah, absolutely. You don't need to be a Gary Vee to make a difference in your industry. Yeah. Really good point, I think, to encourage other people.

Yeah, and I've been trying to remind myself of that again. So I'm on LinkedIn and that tagline's The Caring Recruiter, and I started an Instagram, um, with The Caring Recruiter as well, so give it a follow. Um, but we will— there's a little plug there. But for me, it's like a reminder of this. It's just started, there's barely any followers, but actually I've had people— I think it's 100 followers or something like that— but people have messaged, and I'm trying to reach more people because I work at QAR in niche and I love working with them. But there's so many people that I can't help because that's my niche and my job, that I'm posting career tips on there just to try and help more people find the job that they want, um, for free, obviously, just putting this information out there. And people have messaged me like, oh my goodness, that free CV guide that you gave me, or that interview tip, I used it and it really worked. They, they've got me back for a final or something. And so I just think it doesn't— you have to try and detach yourself from one, your follower count, because it really, it isn't always aligned. You see people with thousands of followers, but what's their engagement like? You don't know. And again, you have to detach yourself from thinking that mindset piece of no one's going to listen. A lot of people stop doing their personal brand because they think I have nothing to say and no one cares. Everybody has a unique voice and something that they can tap into that will resonate with somebody else. Example of that, I don't know if you've heard of Eddie Obiue. He's on Instagram at the moment. He's like this fitness coach. He talks about He swears a lot and talks about how bad the food is that we eat. Yeah, everybody's been saying that message for years, years and years. He's just come on the scene and he's got 3 million followers within a year or something crazy because he's just this different voice and different character and way of saying it. So anytime you think you're not good enough and comparing it, there's always new people doing the same thing that are just saying it in a different way and resonating with a new audience. So let that be your motivator that you can do it as well.

Love that, and that's such a great example. Um, I kind of want to just— we're coming to the end of the pod now, I know we haven't got much longer left, but, um, in terms of recruiters that want to start posting on LinkedIn, you alluded to a few things that you do, but if there was like a, a few ways in which you could direct people of what to post, like how do you come up with ideas, what are you writing about, can we just give people a bit more meat on the bones around that in terms of what you do?

Yeah, sure. Um, I know that's the number one thing people struggle with is, what the hell do I write? So biggest tip is, um, know who you're talking to. So, um, one of the things that you need to do is know your ideal customer profile. Um, so for me, this helps anyone structure it, there's sort of three pillars that I work to. So number one is recruiters, because I love helping and coaching people. So I do a few of my posts will always be related to what recruiters struggle with and how to better themselves. The second one is quality regulatory candidates. That's who I work with, so I want to appeal to them on, um, it might be like what they struggle with during their work, how to get promoted, tips and tricks for getting hired. And then the third is CEOs or VPs of life science companies that I want to work with, and that pillar is when I talk about the problems to do with hiring or success I've had with hiring for businesses. So, I would create an Excel spreadsheet, 3 tables of your pillars, and then under that is, you need to keep in mind, okay, this is who I'm speaking to, what's my message going to be? Now, if you were to sit down and ask me to write posts right now, be creative, I couldn't do it. I just use the conversations that I've had with people to influence the content I create. So, you know, we've had a conversation today about personal brand, for example. I might then, under my Recruiter one, 'Speak about personal brand,' and what we've talked about today. So I just jot some ideas down, and then over time you'll find that that will develop. And then in my Outlook calendar, it's already pre-written, it's in the diary, 9 AM, ready to post with the content there. And it's— this woman, I absolutely love her, one of my favourite candidates to work with, sent me her CV the other day, and I'd pre-written about mistakes on your CV 4 months ago because I've been creating this CV guide. and I had it out scheduled to post, and I posted it. And bless her, she messaged me and was like, did you post that because my CV is really bad? Like, I'm really open to feedback. I said, no, absolutely not. But like, I'd scheduled my post 4 months ago, so sometimes people might think that they are influencers because they've heard me say influencers before, but it's not the case. Use the conversations and the struggles from people to influence your post, schedule it, and then it's out of your mind. You don't need to think about it, it's already done. And I've got about 6 months worth scheduled to go. So anything new that's happening is probably going to be posted in like September, and it just allows me to have that backlog and not put pressure on myself about thinking of content all the time.

Love that. That was really well said and really neatly structured for people that want to dive into that.

Yeah, I've got one more tip actually.

Oh yeah, please.

Be really ballsy. Um, I found especially since being on like trying the other social platforms like TikTok and Instagram If you're trying to get a hook out there, you get most traction when you divide opinion. So one of my most popular posts on LinkedIn was why you should never accept a counteroffer. And of course you get the people, of course you're going to say that, you're a recruiter, there's fees related to it, and you know, they'd love to hate. But that's fine because it creates, it creates that engagement, it creates people having contradicting opinions, and it's funny to read. Like, I don't take anything personally. I'm genuinely just here trying to share information that might help people. It will relate to some and it will piss some other people off, but if you can be a bit ballsy and try and divide opinion, that's going to help you generate a bit more activity around your posts.

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that last bit, Amy, because me and Ben are preaching about this all the time to clients and our audience, that if you're vanilla and you don't stand for anything, then everyone is just gonna just scroll by your, your content. You need to stand for something and fight for it. And like, do a bit of polarization in your content, which works brilliantly.

Yeah, exactly. You want to tear opinion. It's a really good catalyst for conversation in the comments. So, uh, yeah, that's definitely a good trick that I'm trying to be better at because I'm rubbish with hooks. Um, so I'm just trying to learn that a little bit more.

Cool, wicked. Amy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I can't believe— I could literally sit here for another half an hour and ask you questions because I've been really fascinated by this call, but thank you so much for coming on. I feel like you shared some really, really amazing golden nuggets with our audience. Um, and yeah, just lovely to meet you, and thank you for coming on today. Really appreciate it.

You're so welcome. Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, my goal is to have actionable tips, so I really hope that it's been helpful to anyone listening.

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