This recruiter billed 400K and had 90% Inbound candidates!

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Tara Jackson. Tara operates in the SaaS space and has become the go-to expert at placing SDRs. In just a single year, she managed to bill $400K, and 90% of her candidates came straight to her through inbound leads. In today's episode, Tara is going to be talking us through her journey from struggling to attract any candidates to then creating a thriving community of SDR candidates that were consistently reaching out to her. We're going to be delving into the types of content that Tara was producing that helped position her as an expert in her industry. We're also going to be talking about Tara's transition from 180 Recruitment to now focusing purely on the BD side and how all the strategies that she learned are directly applicable. So grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. Let's get into it, shall we? Hello, Tara. How are you?

Hello, I am very good, thank you. How are you both?

Very good.

Very hot at the moment, but still very good. Thank you so much for joining us on Top Billers Toolkit. We're so excited to speak to you. So thank you for coming.

No, thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to see a message like that pop up on my LinkedIn inbox. So yeah, really excited and thanks for having me.

Pleasure. It was an absolute no-brainer for me because I've been following your journey for a while and I know you are very skilled in a lot of things that we're going to be discussing on the podcast. Um, so the question we normally start with is, what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or piece of software? What would you say?

So I definitely think it has to be your mindset and your brain. Uh, one of the hardest things that I've always found in recruitment is riding that wave of wins and losses. There were days when I first started in recruitment where I would just sob at my desk when every candidate cancels an interview. But I think it is the one thing that if you really, really can't master and can't control, it's going to be really difficult for you to be successful because you're dealing with people, you're dealing with businesses that typically don't want to use recruiters. And if you can't ride that wave and control your mindset to, it's not a life or death situation, what have you learned from this situation, what can you do to move forward? It's really hard for you to be successful. So number one thing is nail your mindset.

I'm such a big believer in this, Tara. And funnily enough, I'm getting— I've been doing meditation my whole life, but I'm getting more into meditation at the moment. I feel like 15 minutes of meditation in the morning before I start my day has been an absolute game changer. Just like envisaging a good day, envisaging what I want for the future, the money, the house, the car, the, the whatever, whatever. That has made such a big difference. So I, I really, really agree with that. What, um, when you had those days that were really crap, and you pro— and, you know, running a business, me and Ben have had plenty of them, I'm sure you've had plenty of them. What little tricks, what things did you do to kind of help overcome those really shitty days? Was there any kind of go-to thoughts, any go-to processes? Like, what did you do on those days?

So a couple of things, um, If you have a bad call, I go, there's two things that you can do. Either pick up the phone again and just keep going rather than like creating that fear inside you of, oh my God, another objection, someone's going to hang up. Or leave the desk, take 5 minutes, go and get a coffee, go outside and just reset. I've always been quite an emotional person, so there's always like a lot of tears on the desk. So for me it was always like, just walk away, take 5 minutes, go get a drink. And then come back with a bit more of a fresh mindset where you're less frantic about what's going on. I'm a big believer in exercise. I feel like if I exercise before work, my day is 1,000 times better. If I ever snooze my alarm, my day is horrendous. So never snooze your alarm because I think that's the one like non-negotiable, non-negotiable thing that you're all— you set yourself a task to like get up at that time and you're already making yourself not do that. So like why fail at the first hurdle the moment your eyes open in the morning? And I think surround yourself with people that really want you to succeed. So I send a lot of my calls to our business development director Sophie, and she's always like, great job, or try this, like do something different. And actually just people that like you can laugh about a bad cold call with. But yeah, I talk to myself a lot of like, right, come on, you can do this. But so it's like the self-belief and then also just taking yourself away from the situation. It's not life or death. It is fine.

I love the one about powering through. I think that's quite a unique one as well, because I think you could do like 10 cold calls or 20 cold calls and you have a really crap one and the next 2 are actually pretty good and then you end on a high. So it's like, actually, if you just keep going, you could get some really good feedback as well. Which is—

yeah, yeah. Like last Thursday, I think I made something like 80 cold calls in the day and I think I had 2 people answer me. One of— well, both of them, it wasn't the right person that I was calling, as in like it was someone else called John. They didn't even work at that company. So I was like, great. Got 5 PM and I was like, oh, for God's sake, like, I can't do this. And we've started doing something called 5 After 5 where we make 5 more cold calls after 5 PM. And the first one I did, managed to book a meeting. For that. So if I'd left that day thinking, oh, 80 cold calls, nothing happened, I'm not doing my 5 after 5, I wouldn't have got anywhere. But actually, just powering on does really help.

Absolutely.

I'm guessing that comes down to discipline as well, Tara, just doing it regardless of how you feel, which is quite a tough thing to crack, but something that's so important, I think, for high performers as well.

Yeah, I think that definitely comes down to the snoozing the alarm of I think that is like one of the most disciplined things you can do of like no one wants to get up when their alarm goes off. Like your alarm is waking you up from sleep, which we all need, which we all typically love. The moment you snooze that, you've broken that expectation for yourself. And I do genuinely believe it makes you have a really bad day. So if you can get up at the time that that goes off, you've already started that discipline of doing what you set yourself out to do. And I know that sounds really stupid talking about don't snooze your alarm on a recruitment podcast, but if you aren't disciplined enough to set yourself a target and hit that target, how are you ever going to be successful in a target-based role?

Yeah, I, I— it sounds so simple, but remember observing myself when I was snoozing, and it chips away. The, the best way I can describe it is it chips away at your self-confidence without you realizing it. It's like every little thing you promise to do and you don't do, you chip away at your self-confidence. And it's like if you can't do something as simple as waking up on time, then doing something even harder, it's like you don't have the confidence to follow through with it, which is really interesting. So I'm a big believer in not snoozing and doing the simple things.

Absolutely.

And I think just, just on the snoozing and the discipline, you've set your alarm for a reason. So if you've set your alarm because you want to go to the gym before work or you want to go for a run before work, for example, Typically, you might be going for a run because you're training for a half marathon. So you're doing a half marathon plan. So if you're snoozing your alarm to then not do your half marathon plan, you've already then like broken two things that you're trying to be disciplined around to like get to the end goal, which then means you're going to sleep even longer. You're then going to be getting on a busier tube, a busier train to work. You're then going to be late for work or like rushing into the office. So I feel like the moment you break that first thing, it just then spirals out of control. And then that confidence thing comes in of thinking, oh, I was really lazy this morning. I couldn't get up. I've missed my run. I haven't trained for my half marathon. And it just— you fall into a pit of doom. Hmm.

Full transparency, I did snooze my alarm this morning.

No bad. We'll let you off the hook.

No, no, it's because I went rock climbing and I ended up coming home at like 11, 11:30. Normally I'm in bed by 10. So I had an excuse.

Um, yeah, I brought timings, a good excuse. It's not like you were like, I was at a party last night, something like that.

No, typically I'm, I'm on, I'm on point with waking up.

And you're still on the podcast, that's fine.

Exactly.

I'd love to jump into, um, some of the juicy bits, uh, Tara, because I know that you managed to build $400K in one year and you've got 90% of candidates coming straight to you through inbound, which is insane. Like, if a lot of recruiters hit those numbers, I think they would be very, very proud and happy. Um, for someone who is— who I'm fascinated, I'm sure a lot of other recruiters are fascinated as well— what were you doing on a daily basis? Like, what was your routine during that year? I'm sure it changed, but were there any kind of key things that you did every morning, every lunch, every evening that was just your, your daily routine to hit those numbers?

Yeah, so when the whole LinkedIn personal brand started, it was a bit of a fluke. And when I I started doing that, uh, 4, 3 or 4 years ago, LinkedIn wasn't what it is now. So you used to jump on LinkedIn and it was just like written post after written post after written post. And I'm not saying that I transformed LinkedIn because I didn't, but I was really struggling to find candidates, like really struggling, wasn't a top performer, wasn't even doing that well. And this guy that owns a company that is like a networking group for lots of software companies, came to our office to do a talk. So I took a selfie with him and put it on LinkedIn and it was then got so many likes and so many comments. I was like, oh, this is amazing. Like everyone's liking this. What else can I do? So then we started doing some posts about videos, posting photos of us at the pub after work for like work drinks and we did start to get some backlash around like, why are you treating it like Instagram? It's so unprofessional. This isn't what LinkedIn's for. So the turning point there was like, we need to make this a lot more strategic, and this actually needs to have a goal and a focus rather than just like sporadically randomly posting photos of like our team lunch, for example. So something that I then started doing was creating a note on my phone that was LinkedIn post ideas. So whenever I have a random idea about something, or a client says something, or a candidate said that they were struggling with their interviews, for example, I'd write that as an idea on my notes so that then when I came to doing my posting plan, I knew I had lots of different topics to talk about. What we also really thought about was creating content that was actually going to resonate with people that we wanted to attract. So it needed to resonate with candidates and the struggles that candidates were going through, but also on the business development side, it needed to resonate with CROs and sales leaders and the challenges that they were facing. So rather than just posting a photo of the team at the pub, it was now posting around like commission, like questions around commission structures that were actually going to engage the people that we wanted to speak to. The most important thing that I did was plan all my content on a Friday for the week before. I didn't write every single post, which I know some people do, but I, in my notebook, write Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then know what topic I'm going to post about every single day. And then I write that post the night before I'm going to post it so that then that morning of it's done and ready to go. And I think that is the most important thing you can do is have that plan to then stay consistent because the only way you're going to build that brand is consistency.

I'm fascinated. You, you had a— what were you actually posting on a week-to-week basis, Tara? So if a recruiter was listening and saying, Tara, okay, you've given me a rough idea of what I need to post, what was— what did the kind of structure look like throughout the week? Was it like one personal post? Was it like two pain point posts of candidate pain points? Can you give us an idea of what was going on there?

Yeah, so always try and divide it up into, like you said, like different, um, buckets. Uh, yeah, different like pockets basically. So always do a personal post. People really want to buy into you. So like I recently got a puppy who features quite a lot on LinkedIn, but then the amount of people that I jump on, um, Zoom calls with who are like, oh my God, I've got a puppy as well, and you're suddenly building rapport with the CRO of a massive company that you want to recruit for, talking about the dogs, it is a really great way to build that relationship. If you have a hobby, definitely post about that because other people that have that interest will love that. So I used to typically do definitely one personal post a week, if not two, but that could also be split from posting around like running and marathon training to then also posting about like something that you've struggled with. So then I might post a story around, I had a candidate that didn't turn up to an interview this week. This is like why I think it was out of order, for example. So what about hobbies? One actually about you in the working environment. Always try and do a podcast or something that other people can do. So a podcast or a book, but with some of your key takeaways, because if people don't have time to read the book or listen to the podcast, it's great for them to actually be able to take some actionable insights from your LinkedIn post. And then we always used to post at least 3 jobs a week. So doing a video talking about a job that we were recruiting for, and then that would probably take you 2-5.

Oh yeah, I remember the Venatrix video. You guys are famous for the videos that you all did.

Good morning, LinkedIn. Yeah. And honestly, the amount of abuse I used to get from my friends of saying good morning, LinkedIn. And then actually, like, when it really, really started to work and take off, it was great. And it was a bit of a, haha.

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely. It's pretty interesting you say that, Ty. That leads me on to my next question. Most people don't see instant results from content. You know, most of it requires time, effort, consistency. So when did you start to see results? Can you give us a bit of a timeline of like when you started to see the fruits of your labor come to fruition? To speak.

Yeah. So I think it's even harder. So I just like switching the question slightly, but I think it is even harder now to generate results because so many people are doing the personal brand thing, which is why you just need to start doing it and do it well. I think there's a lot of people on LinkedIn at the moment that are posting photos that are like so irrelevant to it does seem like Instagram, whereas I do feel like what we've really tried to nail at Venatrix is posting things that are relevant to people and what other people are going to share. I think advice for other people— what was it? Advice for other people starting a personal brand?

Yeah, it was. It was. I wondered when you started seeing results. A lot of our people, we see like post once or a week and they're like, why didn't I get any inbound leads? And they just stop there. And I'm just wondering how long it took you until you started seeing stuff?

Yeah. So, ah, in all honesty, I was really lucky and probably within about 3 weeks we got a lot of inbound candidates because the age demographic of the people that we're helping get jobs at Venatrix, which is typically straight out of university or their second job, those are the social media gurus of the world where our lives have revolved around Instagram and TikTok now. So what we actually found was the moment we started doing the videos of the jobs, people resonated with it of, oh my gosh, finding a job as a graduate, so scary. Look at that friendly face on LinkedIn talking to me about a job that sounds really exciting. So we were really lucky, and I do think you're not actually going to generate loads of inbound leads if you are selling to someone that isn't going to resonate with a video, which is why I think you then need to think about the content that you're posting of being more of a thought leader and creating debates and conversations around topics that those people would be interested in. Um, whereas like what we were doing, it did relate to the social media era of people.

Yes, that makes sense. And you're targeting quite a different demographic now, aren't you? So you were targeting candidates at a younger demographic before when you aren't focused on the candidate side. Now you're focused on the BD side and the demographic is different. How was your— yes, you think now that you're targeting a different group of people?

Yeah, it's definitely changed. And that was something that I have really started to work on since I've come back to Venetrix. So we have something, for example, in the office called Tea Time Tuesday where the office provides cakes. And for example, we used to put a photo on LinkedIn being like Tea Time Tuesday, like this is part of joining Venetrix, like team bonding, for example, whereas now I know that a CRO isn't going to look at my post about Tea Time Tuesday and think, wow, I want to use Tara to find SDRs. So that's why this note section on my phone is something I still use now. So if, for example, I was speaking to a client a couple of weeks ago, he was talking about the commission structure of how they pay their SDRs. So I did a post then around commission structures and it got something like 25 comments from different CROs and sales leaders actually then having a bit of a debate and a conversation around the best way to actually do it. And is it company dependent, for example? So yeah, you definitely just have to— one thing I always think about is, could— if someone didn't know you, would they want to share that post to their LinkedIn? And if you think they wouldn't find you credible and they wouldn't find that information interesting, and the answer's no, it's probably not worth posting and not relevant to who you're trying to sell to.

I love that. That's really cool framing. I haven't heard that before in that way.

Did you find that particular posts triggered more inbound leads from candidates or clients? Have you found like a common theme between that yet?

Not at the moment. I do think it is a consistency game. So I won my first retainer a couple of weeks ago, but I've got— thank you, but I got a message on a Sunday from a head of sales at like 8:30 PM when obviously I hadn't posted since the Friday. So I've got no, it wasn't like he saw a post and messaged me, but I think because of the consistency, you're front of mind for someone if they think hopefully like, oh, we're looking for SDRs. Oh, I know the recruitment company that I'm going to call first, Benetrix, because they're all over my LinkedIn page. And it does really help with cold calling as well now. If I cold call someone and say, hi, it's Tara Jackson from Venetrix, typically the response is, oh, I know Venetrix, you do SDR recruitment. So that really helps of like it's a bit less of a—

what is a cold call, but a little bit less cold and a little bit warmer.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, definitely.

I love that you said that, Tara, because that is the power of like personal branding, isn't it? You are getting on the phone with someone that knows of you. And so the conversation, I'm guessing, is so different off the back of just them knowing a bit about you. The difference between a warm call and a cold call is like night and day, isn't it?

Yeah, and like, no one likes being cold called. We all find them annoying. So if it then can like break the ice a bit more, it just makes it easier to have that conversation rather than, what do you do? Or like, pitch me in 30 seconds. It does feel a bit warmer.

100%. You said something before that I just want to come back to, and me and Ben have said said this quite a bit, but I think it's so important for every recruiter. You said you were speaking to hiring CROs, I think it was. Did you say CROs?

Yes.

And you listened to what their problems were, which was commission structure. You took that and then you wrote a post about it. And essentially, it's subtle, but what you're doing is taking their frustrations, their pains, and turning that into a piece of content. And that is, is so important. I think, I think it's so important for recruiters to base at least, you know, 50% of their their content, I think, but on their, on pains and problems that their target audience are going through.

I love that you said that.

100%. And like a really, an exercise that we did a couple of weeks ago was we actually wrote down our 5 biggest problems that we think the SaaS companies that we're trying to target face, or the CROs at those companies face, and the sales leaders, and then how we solve those problems. So then actually when I've been doing Vidyards, for example, which is still part of social selling, I actually lead with a lot of those problems rather than like, this is Venatrix, we're an SDR recruitment company. I actually lead with most CROs in Series A companies are struggling with this problem. Really keen to understand if this is something that resonates with you because they are probably going to experience that problem. And if you lead with the problem, it's a lot easier to sell.

Absolutely. I found as well the more— this has always been the case with our clients— well, the more specific you can be about how they're experiencing that problem, the more that they will believe that you can solve that problem, which is really interesting. I think it's a great idea going through all the problems and then listing that out. I'm guessing that follows through your content as well, Tara.

Yes, 100%. So then we— I've like used it in various posts, but also going back to the CRO and the commission post, that CRO then emailed me. He's going to think he's famous now if he listens to this podcast. He then emailed emailed me afterwards and was like, oh, I actually want to elaborate a bit more on what I said. Like, thought your post was great. This is what we used to do. This is what we do now. And actually gave me even more insight, which then you can— well, any recruiter, once you've got that insight from a CRA of the problem that they're going through and like how they've solved it and what they've done differently, you can use that moving forward in another call. So if someone says, oh, well, like, we're really struggling to put together our commission structure, what would you recommend? You can then say, well, actually, this company do this and this is how this works for them, or this is the problem with this commission structure of, again, people coming to you for advice.

So, so interesting. I've often said this. I think the biggest problem with bad marketing is if you don't know how to sell and ask good questions, because you can gather pretty much everything you need in successful marketing campaigns on all areas if you can have good quality calls and ask the right questions. And actually take that information in. So that's, yeah, it's brilliant. I think you're doing exactly what we preach, Tara, successfully. So that's very cool.

Good. And yeah, I think the people, if someone saw your post that you've written about them of like, oh, I was speaking to a CRO and they said this, they like that you listen to them and they like that you're starting a discussion around it and that they can see other people's input on that because everyone likes to feel special and if they feel like you've really engaged with them, it probably is going to make them feel good and then want to continue that conversation. I think you have to do it in the right way if you're like just copying and pasting every conversation you have with someone. But yeah, I definitely think it can really work.

Yeah, definitely. I'd like to think you're pretty much a veteran in the personal branding world. You've been doing it pretty consistently now. Taryn, you built up a pretty big audience. For anyone listening in, what are some of the biggest challenges you've had building your personal brand? Are there any kind of roadblocks that you've hit that you've had to kind of push past? Anything that kind of comes up when I, when I ask that?

I think the hardest thing is I think it's a bit of a mindset thing. Like sometimes I do post things and think, oh my God, does everyone think I am so annoying? Or if I like post a photo of the sunrise and I'm on a run, Do people think like, for God's sake, just like shut up? But actually, like changing that mindset of like, I'm building this personal brand for a reason. The reason that I'm posting this photo of the sunrise is because I'm talking about a podcast that I listen to on my run. So it's been a shift to making sure that the content that I'm posting is relevant. And then I think it's easier for you to not get bogged down. But I think one of the hardest things is like, what do other people think of me. So when I left Venetrix and did a year in the SaaS industry, I definitely know there were people like at maybe like the companies that I worked at that were like, oh my God, these videos are so weird. Like, why is she doing them? But I still managed to get inbound leads when I worked in another company. So like, it definitely does work. So definitely shut out the haters and be consistent. And like, if you are having a mental block, of what to post, don't worry, like it is fine to take a week off. Like you don't have to post 5 days a week. Start small and work up. So definitely start with targeting yourself on 2 posts a week and then just building that up over time. And then the other piece of advice is comment on other people's posts. So engage with other people's content and that is a game changer. But instead of commenting something like great podcast, actually then comment your takeaway aways from that podcast and actually things that, again, being a bit of a thought leader, the not just like a one-word answer, something that's actually going to have an impact.

Interesting. So many things to unpack there, Tara. But why? Because there's a big— I've heard a big debate of commenting, not commenting. And so what, in your opinion, it's obviously worked for you, and that's why you're still doing it. But why do you think commenting is so powerful, a powerful part of your process?

What do you think?

I think you, one, it makes people feel good when you engage with their content. There are like specific people that I know always like my LinkedIn content, always comment on it. And if I ever needed something, I know that like, let's say I needed something that I knew they sold or they recruited for, they would be my first people to go to. So I think it like builds that like front of mind mindset and LinkedIn is there, like there's a comment box for a reason. If you're commenting something that has relevance and importance, like why not share it? One thing that I have seen a lot recently is if you're speaking about something, someone might comment like, oh, I actually read a really similar post to this last week, check out their opinion on it. And actually I think like why not share other people's content? Why not create that like debate? So yeah, I'm I'm all for the commenting, but I think like let's get rid of the irrelevant commenting of like amazing, um, and make it super relevant and actually have a meaning.

Yeah, love that. Targeted commenting, really, really cool. Um, yeah, this is not a question, but I just love that you started at your new— you went to your new company, you carried on with your process, still had haters but pushed past it. And it was— I just love that. It shows a lot about your character. So I think it's a That's very cool. Did you by any chance say, hey guys, this is working now and persuade some of them to jump on board?

Or— I think it's like everyone has their own skill set, don't you? So some people just love cold calling and that's what they want to do. For me, probably before I came back to Venatrix, I didn't love cold calling as much. So like for me, doing the vidyards, doing the voice notes and doing the posting was a big thing for me. So I think like it does depend on people's skill set. Like I'd always recommend people to start doing like grow that personal brand, but ultimately, like if you really couldn't think of anything worse, don't do it because your content's not going to be good.

It's funny that people find cold calling less painful than posting. It's like, what are you— Yeah, amazed at that because obviously I've done I've done cold calling in ages, years. But when I was doing it, like, oh my God, it was painful. It's—

Yeah, but then it's interesting. Sorry, you go.

No, no, you go ahead.

I was gonna say, but then it's really interesting because since I've then come back to Venatrics in this new role, I cold call every single day. And Elaine, my CEO, was like, I'm going to make you love cold calling. Like, we're going to find a way. And then today I actually said to her, I was like, God, I actually look forward to cold calling. At the moment. Like, it's really good. And again, it is that mindset of like overcoming that fear. And maybe people do just have a fear of a personal brand that they need to overcome. And it's a bit of an ego thing of like, oh, it's cringy, it's weird. But like, I definitely didn't think it was weird when I managed to win a retainer from it. So even if people think you're annoying, just keep going.

How did you overcome cold calling then? I'm really interested in that because that's a pretty big barrier to overcome. Was it just repetition or was it something else?

Yeah, and we did a lot of focusing on objections. So we basically went through like 15 different objections that we could get and then created one-liners of like how to respond to that, then give yourself more time to think. Because I definitely, you know how some people can respond to something really quickly and think of an answer? That's something that I do have to work on quite a lot. So I now I've got these lines to go after my objection. I feel like I'm— I want the objection to like, give it a go now. Whereas like in the first few weeks I was, oh my God, what comes next? Yeah. So it's just like knowing, feeling the confidence of what's going to come next. And again, that mindset of like, who cares if someone hangs up? Like, it doesn't matter. Like I had someone today, for example, and I said, like, what can I do? Like, when can I call you back? To talk about SDR hiring and he went, never call me back. And I did. I pick up the phone like a minute later. Yes. Like, did I cry? No. So yeah, it's just overcoming that mindset, really.

Yeah.

And that's really good advice. And you do become desensitized to it, right? After you do it enough, you're like, oh, well, that's completely normal. It's like, I've had that 10 times in the past and nothing happened. Nothing bad happened. The same with posting. It's like once you post and you get like one bad comment, you're like, oh wow, that wasn't so bad. I'll just delete and block or whatever and then move on with your life. So yeah, it's really interesting.

Yeah, definitely.

What is— because some recruiters have never had an inbound lead or just don't really— yeah, they haven't experienced the flow of inbound leads. I'm curious because you mean you've got 90% of that $400K was inbound leads. What is the difference between an inbound lead and an outbound lead in terms of the, the warmness, in terms of the close rate, in terms of the whole feeling that you get? Can you just talk us through that?

Yeah, so I think the most important thing is like, it's not guaranteed. I think there were times where I'd have a candidate come inbound and I think, oh great, I've made the placement already. And you definitely haven't. And it's really easy to cut corners. When you've got an inbound lead because it obviously is inbound, it feels a lot easier. It is definitely a much warmer conversation because you're not cold calling someone. They've come to you because they need your service or they're interested in a specific job. Or for example, like if we're recruiting for a remote job and someone messages me saying, I want to work in a remote organization, you've already like overcome that battle and that objection. But again, like That is a mindset thing. If you have the mindset of that being a bad thing, you're going to struggle. So it's definitely like warmer, and the conversation probably flows better. It's a lot easier. But I do think you have to be cautious about cutting corners, because how we work at Banetrix is we speak to the candidate on the phone. We then do a Zoom call that lasts for about 45 minutes where we interview the candidate, and then we actually pitch the candidate Benetrix and the services that we offer. And I find that if I'd ever had times where I thought, oh, they're inbound about that job, I'll just quickly call them and then invite them to the virtual assessment for that company. It never ever results in a placement because actually they are getting hounded by recruiters. They're probably also messaging lots of other recruiters. And if you haven't followed that whole process that you do know works, just because you think it feels easy, you're actually just wasting your time. So I would definitely say, even if it is inbound, treat it with the same level of like hunger and desire and just being like super focused on what the end goal is. It's like if you got an inbound— when I get an inbound lead from a decision maker looking to hire, I'd never like not pitch them the Venatrix deck or then say that I'd send them a follow-up email and not send one. They might also be looking at 6 other recruitment companies to find them SDRs. So it's just treating everything like it is outbound and you are like seriously working to like win that deal.

Really valuable point because people can get a bit, people could, I can imagine, get a bit lazy with the inbound and yeah, and do exactly what you said, Tara.

And sorry, one more thing to add to inbound. Never, ever, ever stop doing outbound, even if you think think, right, I'm getting 6 inbound candidates a week. I don't need to do any outbound. I don't need to do any cold calling. Never ever stop outbounding. Like, you need to have that time blocked in your diary every single day, but like at least weekly to really invest in it, because sometimes those inbound candidates do dry up and they're suddenly not there, and then you haven't got any pipeline. So I always say that like the inbound should be in addition to what you're targeted on booking. So let's say you want to book, like, book 3 meetings a week, for example, that should be targeted on all outbound. And then whatever comes inbound is in addition to that 3.

Love that. Were you gonna say something?

No, I was gonna say it's such a good— I think it's a brilliant piece of advice. I'm amazed at the people that are selling just content. It's like, change your business with just content. It's like, I don't know anyone. I mean, the odd few with huge followings, you know, could probably get consistent inbound, but for the average person, it's almost impossible. And you can almost guarantee no matter how good your inbound, there's always going to be fluctuations. It's impossible. So I agree, like outbound is first and foremost and content is the supporting act for sure. Yeah, really good advice.

100%.

Just want to end, we're coming to the end of the podcast. Tara, but I just want to end with a bit of like understanding you as a person because I'm always fascinated with what drives people and what keeps them going. And what also fascinated me as well, at the beginning you said when you first started sales or cold calling, you were quite emotional. There was, there was crying going on. And you know, that sounds like you went through quite a tough period, but you still carried on. Like, you still, you still went through that discomfort and you regardless, you still pushed through. What is driving you to make you go past all these barriers? Like, sales is a tough job, you could have gotten anything else, but what's driving you to continue past those moments of pain, so to speak?

Yeah, so this is a really interesting one for me actually. So I was lucky enough to buy my own flat last year, which was a massive goal for me, and I felt like I obviously worked really, really, really hard to earn loads of money and loads of commission to get to that point. And then when I got to that point and I bought my flat, for me, I actually felt like a bit of oh God, like, what's next? What is actually motivating me? Because that had been such a huge motivator and at the forefront of my mind for so long that then when I actually did it and it all went through and left my bank account, I was like, oh God, like, where do I go now? And I think that's where I really lost what actually drove me, which then came to the point of when I then left Venetrix. And then I think over the last year I've really found what does drive me, and it like really is changing people's lives. And that is why I'm back in recruitment. I love more than anything when a candidate messages me and says like, oh my gosh, I've just had my first week, I've booked my first meeting, the training's amazing. Or a client messages me and says like, wow, that process was incredible. I can't believe how good Venetrix is. I can't wait to use you in the future. And for me, that really is like, I thrive off those comments. And then for me, that commission is a byproduct. So I love commission, I love earning money, I love spending money. But for me, it really is that feeling of doing a good job for our clients and candidates, but then also my CEO Elaine, for like what she's done for Venetrix, I feel like I do everything I do to like make Venetrix successful and like be part of that journey as well. So yeah, it's a bit of an interesting one because I think lots of people always say like you have to be so money motivated and it is at the forefront. But I do really think for me, like it is changing people's lives, changing companies and like, I mean, SDRs are so important for pipeline, so they are critical. But yeah, that is definitely what drives me.

Wicked. And, um, what's the biggest thing on your mind for the future at the moment, Tara, in terms of the, the house, the car, or whatever? What's kind of the biggest thing driving you in terms of the future at the moment?

So it— well, obviously my dog, which seems to be costing me an absolute fortune. Um, but I think for me, I've obviously— I worked my way up at Benetrix in the delivery side of the team. I've then left for a year, come back into business development. So I do really feel like I'm like fully starting my career again at Benetrix. So for me, I just want to like become successful again, start again making that money, but also just like keep developing that reputation. So I guess there's no like actual like house, car goal at the moment, but it's more like my success internally. Yeah, that's what I want to achieve.

Wicked. And you'll have no problem doing that because you're bloody good at what you do, Tara. So last question, and you've kind of already answered this because you do cold calling. We always end with this though. What's your opinion on cold calling? Is it a yes? Is it a no? And if so, why? Can you just give us your thoughts on it?

1000% yes. Pick up the phone. The amount of people that say to me now, like, I really rate that you picked up the phone, like, well done shows that not enough people are doing it. And yeah, 100% do it and always just think like, what is the worst thing that's going to happen? They're going to hang up and like, that's not that bad. So 100%, it needs to be in your sequences. If you're not picking up the phone, especially in this economic climate, I don't know how you're doing recruitment.

Tara, thank you so much for joining us. So much wisdom and little golden nuggets in there. So I'm sure everyone's going to love it. But thank you again for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me.

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