This recruiter Billed 800k in one year and 80% was Inbound….

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is an absolute sales machine, Amber Penrose. In just a single year, she managed to generate $800K of revenue. Now this is where it gets even more interesting. 80% of that business came straight to her through inbound leads. Amber has spent many years building her personal brand on LinkedIn, sharing valuable insights and sometimes personal content with her audience. And it's paid off big time. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about the moment Amber discovered the power of her personal brand. We'll be asking her how the hell she managed to bill $800K while also managing a team of 8 people. And we're going to be delving into some of the very powerful outbound marketing tactics that Amber's been using to stand out from the crowd and win new business. So guys, as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's jump in, shall we? Hello Amber, how are you?

I am good, Sam, how are you?

Very good, thank you. Time is speeding along, I can't believe it's Friday already. Thank you so much for joining us. Me and Ben have been following you for quite a while. I've heard you on another podcast. I loved your story. I love what you do. I love what you stand for. So thank you for coming on.

Thank you for inviting me. It means a lot. And my plan is to be honest, but hopefully not too honest because that's sometimes my problem.

I love it.

So we always start off the podcast with this question. What's the number one tool in your toolkit, do you think, whether it be a mindset, a strategy, or a piece of software?

I think you and I, Sam, were moaning about this during our kind of call prior to this, and it is an AI Meeting Transcriber, because I am constantly networking with new recruiters and new recruitment founders as well, and I am just perplexed by how little people are using them. Because I don't know about you, but I can barely remember what I had for breakfast, let alone what someone said to me on a call 3 months prior. And it just completely makes the whole process automated and so much more simple. And then you can, you know, even use the quotes from some of these calls if you do post on LinkedIn as social proof Yeah, it's just made my life 10 times easier and I don't know why people aren't using them when they're free as well.

100%.

Me and Ben are such— we only discovered Fathom probably like 2, 3 months ago. Fathom is, for any listeners that don't know, that is an AI recording software, exactly as Amber said. And the amount of data you can gather specifically for market research and content and just ideas is just insane. How else do you use the AI recorder?

And that of interest for meeting overviews as well, just because again, you need to think about how many conversations your clients are having and they often don't remember what was spoken about and what the kind of actions that you require from that call were. So the AI platform completely transcribes all of that for you. So you don't have to do any thinking, maybe edit it slightly because sometimes you might say something that's a bit random and they put that in the meeting notes. I've definitely had that happen before, but it's good for content, like I said, to for quotes. And if you do have more of a succinct process and you want to send over answers from your candidates' interviews as well, you can literally copy and paste exactly what that candidate has said and send it over to your client. And they seem to love that. And if you do pay for the updated version too, which I think is only about £3 or £4 a month, you can send the actual voice clip of them answering it. And my clients just absolutely love that.

Probably worth saying that we use Fathom, but you use Fireflies, right? That's the one that—

Yeah, and I think they're all pretty similar, to be honest. Have a play with them. And to be honest, for the first like 3 months, I just went through the 30-day free trials on all of them and figured out which one I liked. And I just prefer Fireflies. So figure it out for yourself. And but I would 100% recommend downloading one at least.

Yeah, I completely agree with that. And a little hack for people. You can also like, you can copy the whole transcription of your meeting, put it into ChatGPT and say, summarize the points and give me some content ideas. And that, you know, you could get content ideas for the whole week or the whole month, depending on who you are.

Yeah, 100%. And do you know what else has been really eye-opening for me? I think especially as a junior recruiter, I thought that my value was in how much I was talking. And when I then looked at the analytics from these meetings using the AI platforms, it tells you how much percent you speak and the other person speaks. And it was quite surprising in a bad way, and it's definitely made me more wary and aware of how much I'm talking versus listening. So that's helpful too.

What was your percentage, Amber, of interest?

Before, it was like 70-30.

Whoa, well, that's normal, isn't it?

It was really bad, but then I had an amazing call yesterday, okay, and I was 28, um, and they were 72, so that was fine.

I'm getting there.

Awesome.

Love it. One thing I'm intrigued about, Amber, is your drive and your motivation. From, from what I've heard, the small bits anyway, the bits I've spoken to you, the bits I've heard, you're an incredibly hard worker, like incredibly hard. And I'm always fascinated about the people that really pour their soul into their work and have high standards and really are performing at a high level, which you obviously are. I'm really intrigued at what motivates them because I find, especially with me, motivation is this weird thing that kind of comes and goes. And then for me anyway, it needs to be held up with discipline. But then I always kind of go back to these, these dreams and these goals that I'm trying to accomplish. But what, what keeps you going and what motivates you to work so hard, do you think?

Don't you think this is like one of the hardest questions ever to wrap your head around? And I'm a bit of a weirdo, like I'm obsessed with product. Productivity and concepts surrounding motivation. And I've read many a book and I still don't feel like I know the answer to this question. But what I have come to realize is, like you said, Sam, motivation is a bit of a personal development hoax, I think, because it's a feeling, okay? And we're humans and feeling— feelings, sorry, come in ebbs and flows. And I think the moment that I genuinely realized and interpreted that It's not motivation that creates action, it's action that creates motivation. That's when everything kind of changed for me. But on a more deeper level, I think for me personally, what motivates me, at least with the business, is, you know, I grew up with a lot of financial instability in the house, and I remember having, um, kind of thoughts and feelings of stress surrounding money as young as 8 years old. And if I am blessed enough in the future to be able to have a family of my own, I do not want my children to have the thoughts and feelings that I was having at that age. And that's what drives me when I am not feeling motivated. And I think when you look at recruiters, it's the people that can push through when they don't feel like doing it and they feel like giving up. That's what separates the $800K billers from the $200K billers. Um, so I think it's just about conceptualizing your own personal experiences and just remembering why you're doing what you're doing.

Hmm, that's really interesting. So I feel like you have a really strong anchor, Amber, that's kind of pushing you on. Do you feel like you're kind of trying to move away from something or move towards something? What's the higher motivation, out of interest?

I think it's also slightly toxic, to be honest, my motivation, because a lot of it pertains to proving myself and everyone wrong. And that's something I've had to really consciously work through as well, because You know, even at school, I was on a scholarship at a private school, and throughout that I had to be achieving at all times or I'd get kicked out. Or, you know, I then failed my university degree and worked in Subway for 2 years not having a clue what I wanted to do. And I think partly a lot of my drive just comes from, okay, I'm gonna fucking push through no matter what I've been through and prove everyone wrong. Um, so that can be quite toxic at times, but it definitely sparks some fire in my belly at all times. Um, But as well, I think for the business, and again, this is more of a personal motivator, so maybe not replicable for your listeners, but I'm type 1 diabetic and I have firsthand witnessed how technologies have not been able to come to market and help people like me and millions of others as a result of poor recruitment processes and poor fundraising rounds. And I've seen it and I've actually felt it as a patient as well, how that affects me and others. And that's what drives me too with my actual business and with Moxie. And I'm genuinely just passionate about the Moxie move. That sounds like a cult, the Moxie movement, but the movement that we can genuinely create. And that's what keeps me going when my alarm goes off at 5 AM and, you know, I've had 3 hours of sleep the night before because of my diabetes. That's what pushes me on. So yeah, also before I forget this, actually something that was really motivational and again definitely can't replicate this, but did you guys hear about the, um, bombings at the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester? Yes, yes, I was there and I experienced the whole thing and I witnessed, you know, oh my God, that's— it's dying. And this was in 2018, and since that day I don't even think about motivation anymore. Like, I just keep freaking going and I'm disciplined to take incremental steps because You know, it sounds so dramatic, but our lives nearly ended that day. And I think if there's anything that's going to keep me going, it's bloody that.

Wow, that's mental. I can't believe you were there. Where were you in this, in the place when it happened? Um, can you just describe a bit of that? Because that's—

yeah, so my boyfriend Jack is literally my lifesaver. So he took me to Ariana Grande for my birthday, and as you can imagine, most men are not the— or women actually of my age either— are the biggest Ariana Grande fans. And it was during the encore, and he was like, come on, Amber, let's go to the car park so we can miss all of the traffic. And I, obviously being a huge Ariana Grande fan, was like, no, don't make me do it. Um, but he dragged me, and luckily— so the bomb went off, it was 2 minutes 30 after we'd gone through the foyer. So if we were to have left 2 and a half minutes sooner, we would have been in the foyer, which is where the actual bomb went off.

Um, oh my gosh.

So yeah, that's kind of like a big motivator as well. Sorry to bring the tone down, but no, not at all.

No, not at all. I'm fascinated with how experiences, especially near-death experiences, can literally change your whole perspective on life. Because I think, um, a lot of human beings forget that we only have a small time on this planet. Like, we forget that we are we're mortal human beings, like we just, we will go one day and that will change, that should change how you live your life. What was, are you thinking about that on a daily basis? Do you think it's more subconscious? How did it, how did that experience change your motivation, do you think, Amber?

It's definitely subconscious. It wasn't at the start though. I'd say for the first 2 years, and they provided therapy to everyone that was at the concert for free, because there was, you know, they targeted a concert based upon the fact that it's mainly young children. That is why they attacked that place in particular at that time. And I think the therapy definitely helped and has allowed me to channel that motivation into strength and drive rather than, oh my God, woe is me. Like, I've seen a lot of scary things and I don't feel like getting out of bed, but I definitely did feel like that for at least the first kind of few months. It was just really— it shook me up. Um, yeah, to be honest.

Yeah, mental. I don't think there's very few people that would have experienced something like that in their life. That's like pretty insane.

And now I'm so anxious, as you can imagine, because I love going to concerts and festivals. When I'm going through the bag checking thing, I'm like, check my bag more! Because I'm diabetic, I often have needles in my bag, and I'm like, are you not scared that I've got all of these needles in my bag?

Yeah.

Cool.

Well, that's really fascinating what motivates you. So it sounds like a lot of mix, a mixture of different things, including, or mainly life experiences that have just happened to you that have—

Yeah, but honestly, like, I just love my life and what the business that I've created for myself. And I definitely didn't feel this kind of motivation whilst I was working for a corporate business or for someone else. But just the ability to create my own path, like, that is just so motivating. And being able to learn every day and see results and be curious, that's what gets me out of bed with a spring in my step. Get up every morning.

Yeah, and I've been testing— I mean, I've been testing discipline my whole— well, not my whole life, my whole adult life. I was really lazy as a kid. But, um, I find if you're ever lacking motivation, increase your discipline. Whenever I'm more disciplined, motivation just seems to— it's a— there's a direct correlation between, for me anyway, being more disciplined and the energy and passion coming back for your work and life and what you do. So I just, I don't know, I just thought I'd share that because that's, that's been my go-to tool whenever I'm lacking motivation. Increased discipline, wake up earlier, cold showers, get to the gym, go to bed earlier. Do you know what I mean? All the kind of key things to do for me anyway.

Yeah, all the things we don't want to do, those are the things that make us feel good. Um, but it's take— and even little things like sometimes I just CBA with the gym and I will literally just count down from 5 and then get up. And it sounds so ridiculous, but it works. Like just little tricks tasks that you can implement into your daily life, I think, help.

Definitely. I would love to speak about, um, your billings, um, because you are, uh, it's quite convenient that you're on a top billers podcast because I would classify you as a top biller. I think you work your ass off, you've done incredibly well, you're very good at what you do. Um, in your last company you hit $800K, am I right in saying that?

Yeah, whilst managing a team of 8, which as you can imagine was Bloody difficult.

I can't— I don't know how you did that, but neither do I.

I was absolutely shattered and 80% coffee, but oh my God, it definitely taught me a lot.

Yeah, and I think most recruiters listening to this would love to hit those numbers. You know, £800K is a brilliant number to be hitting. Um, what— and this is a bit of a— it's quite a big question, but what do you think are some of the biggest factors that contributed to you hitting those numbers? For anyone that's listening and wants to understand how a top biller operates and what you did to get there?

Yeah, I think the key thing, and everyone says this but it really is true, is just being obsessed with the process and detached from the result and just time blocking and not straying from that whatsoever, no matter what, no matter how I was feeling, no matter how motivated I was that day, no matter what was going on. Even if I had, you know, 8 roles that I were working on and they were all solid business, I would still be doing business development because people are our product, and people are unpredictable, and you never know what's going to happen to your pipeline. I just kept showing up every day, and if I think about me versus everyone else in the room, that was the main differentiator, was my motivation. So again, it kind of pertains back to your last question, but I was just really intentional with my time. I've always been like a crazy planner, even back to when I was at school. My mum said that I'd like cover my room and just plans and like motivational quotes and stuff. And I know that that's not something that comes naturally to everyone, um, but if you are more intentional with your time blocks, you therefore know that every single minute of your day is resulting in whatever your goals are for that quarter. Um, so I think that was kind of the main thing. And then I also just had a really good process. Um, like I compared again what I was doing to my colleagues and the majority of recruiters, I think, and to no fault of their own because we're just not provided with good training. Their process is an onboarding call. They'll then send CVs with maybe like a few notes. They'll manage the, you know, notice period or whatever, and that's it. But I've always used a lot of technologies like Asana boards, and we have kind of mind maps of the step to step exactly what the process looks like for the client and for me and the timelines. I include, you know, video interview questions with the predetermined questions that me and the client have gone over beforehand so that they know exactly what these candidates are bringing to the table from day dot. We have like weekly data points as well. We have feedback meetings booked in from day one. I just think I've got a better process, and that has always been the feedback as well from my clients. And then that results in a lot of recommendations as well.

Um, interesting. So I got 3 things from that, Amber: your intention, your persistence, and your process. And I really like to unpack all of that. How did you go— uh, sorry, were you gonna say something?

No, and because you were listing lots of Ps, then personal brand came to mind as well, because that's definitely— that was a huge, um, contributor to my billings for sure.

Awesome. Well, let's touch upon all of them. I'm interested in the So how does one go about creating a good process? Because there's some of, some of the ideas you've told me as well, like creating video in your email, uh, and a few other things. A lot of recruiters have never done that before, maybe didn't even know you could do that. How are you creating your process? How do you go about doing that?

I made it up in my head and I asked them, I asked my clients, you know, what, what's the biggest gap between where you are now regarding your interview process and where you'd like to be? Or what are the things that your recruiters are giving you that you love and what aren't they? And I just put myself in the shoes of my clients and what would enable me to make more informed decisions. And for example, when I was hiring salespeople into scientific businesses, the problem is a lot of them are scientists and they don't have the commercial acumen in order to sell, sell a product or a reagent or whatever to a customer. So I thought, okay, how can I solve that problem? What we'll do is we'll include video interviews in our pre-screening notes because that then enables the client to actually see how they are, see how they operate, their body language, the way that they speak, the way that they present themselves. So it's just, okay, you know, regularly communicating, figuring out what their problems are, and then what you can do to solve that. And that's where my whole process has come from. It's just about consistent feedback and then implementing things to help them.

That's really interesting. What was one of the biggest game changers in your process? If you were to say, guys, this is once I implemented this in my process, it was a game changer for these reasons. What do you think that would be?

Probably the Asana board, because so if it's for anyone that doesn't use Asana, it's just like a project board. And from our strategy calls, so the way that my process goes is a 30-minute discovery. So that's about figuring out what problems they have and if I can even solve them. And then step 2 is exactly how we're going to approach the search. So then in that step 2, me and the client come up with a mutual action plan. So exactly what's happening, when, what's going to happen if we can't adhere to those timelines, who's going to be giving the feedback, when they're going to be giving the feedback, how they're going to— like, I just know absolutely everything and when and why and how. And that Asana board has just been amazing because for Moxie, I want our goal to be every hire is done in less than 30 days, which doesn't sound that quick, but in life sciences, I think the average at the minute is about 58 days, which is just disgusting.

Wow.

And so I really want to keep that data point in check, and I think a good way for me to do that is to not only make me accountable, but more importantly, the client.

Love that, Amber. Absolutely love that. Um, can we, can we touch upon intent as well? How does one come to work with more intent, and how does that make you perform better, do you think?

Oh, that is a good question, Sam. Um, how does one act with intent? I think again, for me it's different because I've literally experienced like how these problems affect me as a patient. So the intent is natural, like I intentionally want to make these changes because I actually care about these results, not only from, uh, oh my God, I'm gonna make the placement and make money, but also from, uh, okay, this is gonna really help my life and make me more healthy. So intent for me has been slightly more simple, I think, because I've been able to find that why and that drive.

Awesome.

So I don't really know.

Now that makes sense. You kind of— I get the feeling that you truly want to change the industry and change people's circumstances. And so your intention is quite pure when you walk through the door, like you have a clear goal of what you want to do, Amber, which is make my life better but make other people's lives better as well, which I think is brilliant.

Exactly. And there's just a lot of frustrated life sciences clients out there. Like, some of the stories regarding how recruiters have worked with them is just quite disgusting and quite embarrassing. And I find that to be the hardest thing about recruitment, is that people have this kind of wall of objections up before they've even met with you, just as a result of how awful a lot of the industry is. And that's been the biggest difficult key for me is breaking through that preconception. But again, I think that's where your personal brand can really come in handy because you're already breaking down those walls before they've even met you.

Yeah, that's a really great point. And that kind of leads us nicely on to the next topic. Um, if I'm not mistaken, a little segue, um, if I'm not mistaken, out of the $800K that you build, 80% were inbound leads. If I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, I double-checked this morning and it was 83%, but again, like I mentioned, it's, that's, that data point probably sounds a lot more impressive than it actually is because I only had 8 clients that year to make 800K. So whilst it was 83%, that only means that 7 were actually inbound.

Yeah, I think most recruiters working at the top of their game only need a handful of clients.

I think, you know.

You know, so that's, that's pretty normal for our clients as well. 8 would make a huge difference.

Um, yeah, and you know, yeah, 80% and billing that number, again, a lot of recruiters' dreams. They want more people coming to them as opposed to them having to, to go out to them or go out to, to hunt them down. Um, when did you first start discovering the power that a personal brand would be useful for you in your recruitment career? Can you tell me that moment that happened, if you can remember, Amber?

Yeah, so there was this company that I had been politely pestering for what felt like my entire life because I was just— I get really obsessed with companies that I want to represent. Like, I really love companies that have a great employer brand and like they just look like they're doing the right things. And there was this company that just fell into the exact ICP that I wanted for my my business back in the day. This was about 3 years ago, and I'd done a post about diabetes and just the mental effects of living with that. And the VP of sales at this company that I'd been pestering for like 2 years via cold calls, videos, emails, everybody, multi-channel that you can think of, he sent me a message and was like, Amber, just want to say, um, your post today like kind of almost brought me to tears. I have a son who has just been diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, and he feels incredibly blah blah blah, um, would love to chat at some point. And then we had a call, and then from there he introduced me to TA, and then they became one of— I think I made about $300K out of them in that year. So it just made me realize that whilst I think a lot of the advice about you need to always be showing how you solve problems with social proof, which I definitely still do whilst it's a struggle right now since Moxie's quite new and we don't have too much social proof yet to showcase, it's made me realize that just being myself as well can result in placements. And, you know, as a listener, you might think, okay, but it's easy for you as a diabetic working in life sciences. That's obviously a unique perspective. But this has happened many a times. I've had an inbound lead because of a photo of my cat. So just like, don't be afraid to be a corporate robot and just be yourself. And I think, yes.

So this is, this is, so I'm just going to jump in because this is a really interesting topic, especially when we're working with recruiters who are really experienced and perhaps, you know, more, more seasoned and further along their journey, their perception is really just about expertise. They, you know, there's this, there's this stigma or this idea around LinkedIn that you have to only talk about professional stuff. And, you know, obviously to some degree that's true, but, you know, you've tested this we've tested this, we've got a lot of results around personal branding and being more vulnerable. And we call it strategic sharing in the, in the program because it's not, I think, sharing for the sake of it, but it's sharing stuff that I think people are going to resonate with. My question is, how do we, how do we, if we were collective, change that perception of, um, you know, persuading recruiters that this is a way to get more business and build your brand and build your business?

Show them results. So I know, you know, that's why I want to talk more about the positive effects I am having from just sharing personally, because I think again, when I go on LinkedIn at the moment, all I see is, you know, social proof and, um, what are you doing to be authoritative and what are you doing to prove to your clients that you've done this before, blah blah blah. And whilst I think that is of course valuable, and I aim for 4 posts a week to show those things and then 1 post a week to build authenticity and just show who I am. It does work, but I think if people aren't actually trying it, of course it's going to be hard for you to convince recruiters on your platform right now that this is the right way to go because there's just not a lot of us doing that and having the results.

Yeah, but Amber's testimony— well, Amber just said is proof enough for anyone You know, she posted the post about her diabetes and had a $300K deal. So that's evidence enough to at least test it, guys. So start testing.

Maybe I need to as well start doing more social proof about that and just showing people that you don't need to be a corporate robot to get inbound leads because, you know, I think it's just easy as well for me to write posts about what's going on in my life. And as a new founder, it's been really, really difficult to manage posting 5 times a week. Whereas if I am just posting about, you know, things that are going on on in the business, social proof, that's easy, things that are going on in my life, that's easy. It's just been a lot more simple than trying to look at a scientific paper and write my own opinion on it because that's not what these people come to me for. They come to me for hiring advice and pictures of my cat apparently. I love that.

Come to think of it, I think it's also maybe an issue around being vulnerable and people not enjoying being vulnerable, if that makes sense, due to fear of backlash or fear of negative negative feedback. That's a big one we found. Have you ever— has that ever gone through your mind when you're posting personal stuff, or do you feel 100% confident when you're sharing kind of more vulnerable stories, Amber?

No, I absolutely hate it. I hate sharing vulnerability, and it's scary, especially, you know, when you see all of these impressions that you're getting and all of these clients that you've been dying to get in with for years liking your posts about you crying in your bedroom because being a founder has just got too much. It's really, really scary. But if we aren't vulnerable, and I find LinkedIn to be quite a fake platform at times, and I'm just trying to bring a bit of realness and a bit of humanization back to the space because especially in life sciences, it's really, really tough out there right now for recruiters, for hiring managers, for people who are going through layoffs. Like, it's fucking hard. And when you just log in and all you see is boring social proof and like companies that have sold their first retainer in the first 3 days of starting their company. It's disheartening. And so I think sharing not only the highlight reel but also the downs is really bloody important because it will then encourage others to do the same and more importantly, feel comfortable enough to do the same.

Yeah, love that, Amber. For a recruiter who's just getting into posting and want to understand your daily or your weekly structure just on a very basic level, can you just give them an outline? Because I remember you telling me, Amber, there was like you do expertise posts, personal posts, and something else. You have a, you do have a rough outline of, of what you do on a weekly basis. Do you mind just explaining that to anyone listening so they can start kind of duplicating that? That's a good—

Yeah, so I think once you're starting out, and this was hard for me, was just coming up with the ideas. So if it's easier for you, create kind of a content pillar. So on a Monday, I know what type of content I'm posting. Tuesday, Wednesday, Blah, blah, blah. And so when I have no ideas, I can just come to that content pillar and it makes my life a lot easier. Having a Notion document as well, or just a note on your phone for when ideas spring into your head, is really important. Because I don't know about you, but some of my best ideas come from when I'm in the shower or it's like 3 AM in the morning and I can't sleep. That's when my ideas generate. Um, and I think a big thing that I've been doing I've done recently and that you need to do is create like a free resource that you can send out as well on LinkedIn. So I have started creating, um, like just for startups, how to build your interview process, like how to make it better, how to make it replicable, how to actually hire effectively in less than 30 days. And so now when anyone connects with me, I will thank them and just send over the free resource and The algorithm as well absolutely loves DMs at the moment because I recognize when someone DMs me, their content then is at the top of my page every day. So just make sure you're not only posting, you're commenting, you're DMing, you're liking, you're just engaging. It's a bloody social media platform. Okay, so don't think that just doing your posts and then logging out and taking 3 hours to respond to your comments is going to be enough because it won't. And consistency. I know everyone says it, but you posting once a week is just not going to amount in a consistent flow of inbound leads. So put the time aside. Like, I spend every Sunday evening writing all of my LinkedIn posts and then I just schedule them and forget about it. But yeah, I didn't do that this Sunday because I was really hungover, so that didn't happen. Thanks for being honest. Yeah, I know my friends are still over from the Saturday night and my alarm went off on my phone at 7 PM to write them and I just looked at my friend and I was like, not today, it's fine. So that's why they've been a bit sporadic this week. Um, but try to do that. And, you know, and that just pertains to the point of consistency over perfection. Like, if you can't get it out and you are really hungover on a Sunday, getting something out is better than nothing. And just post. Like, what is the bloody worst that could happen?

I'm not sure if you have this data, uh, Amber, but have you realized out of the 8 clients, what percentage of your clients have come from more personal posts compared to more problem-solving or business-related posts? Have you measured that or figured that out yet?

No, but you know when, Sam, when you sent over the questions for today, I thought, oh, that would have been a really good thing to look at, but I couldn't, I don't have access to all of the emails anyway because they're in my old email inbox. So no, I've not been able to figure that out, but I think that would be a really good data point if I had that to speak about. But I think, to be honest, mainly that they're personal with. I think just from the top of my head, because two of them were diabetes, one was a cat post. I know that one—

yeah, I love that your cat won you business, Amber. That's so cool. I need to start pimping out my cats. I've got two.

Yes, what they called Sushi and Maki.

Sushi and Maki. Yeah, I'm obsessed with Japanese food. Yeah, I loved what you said, by the way, Amber, when you connect with them, you leave them a PDF or something of value. I think that's so brilliant.

That's such a great idea. A little value nugget because it just proves that I know what I'm talking about. And I think often, you know, recruiters will connect with people and then start selling immediately. Like, don't do that. Engage with their content for a few weeks prior, you know, actually show that you care. It's so gross being sold to. Like, I'm sure you guys get it now as as founders, I hate when people just add me and they just try and shove something down my throat that I clearly don't want or didn't ask for. It can just be kind of off-putting. So I've just used how I feel when people sell to me and replicate that in the way that I now reach out.

Hmm. Yeah, very interesting. One thing I was really fascinated with, Amber, was you had 8 clients, you built $800K. How were you able to maximize each client? Can you just talk a bit about that? Because I'm really fascinated how some people can, you know, land and expand, so to speak. You know, you have one client, but you're able to maximize so much of that client. Is it just a case of doing a good job and kind of repeating? Is there more strategy behind that? Can you just talk a bit about that, if that's okay?

Yeah, I think it came to how I marketed myself at the start. Like, I've never been a recruiter that just wants to fill one role, and I make that very, very clear to them. I have a pitch deck for our first 30-minute call, and literally the second page on that is what my non-negotiables are and what they were as a recruiter. And part of that is I want to embed myself in your business. So the only, like, retainers that I'd ever work were for companies that had over 4 roles for me, and that definitely made it a lot easier, um, to make the most out of each account. But I think as well, being able to cover every market vertical within such a tiny niche. So for example, during that $800K year, the only companies I worked on were in the genomics space, which is really, really tiny. So I was niche, but then I was able to cover everything. So quality, R&D, sales, BD, whatever. And because I was mainly targeting startups after Series A or Series B, they often needed to build the the entirety of the R&D team and the entirety of the sales and BD team. So I would say to them, look, I'm not going to just fill one of these. Like, if I'm going to get to know you, I need to fly out to meet you. We need to meet at a conference. I need to come in and see your lab and see how the culture works. And that's how we're going to create a result together. So I just think setting those non-negotiables from day one is what enabled me to make the most out of each account.

I absolutely love that, the non-negotiables. And it's amazing how many people don't have non-negotiables. Like, that just doesn't exist for them in a sales call, and that is so powerful. What were some of you— can you describe a few of your non-negotiables on your list, if that's okay?

Yeah, um, so we have to book in interviews for on that day so that we have to already have each slot, each person invited, everyone's diaries need to be blocked out. We need to have standardized questions, at least for the first 2 rounds of interviews. There needs to be no more than 4 interviews altogether. They have to pay for their travel up front, because I've seen it in the past where they get reimbursed and it's actually meant that some candidates can't go and travel to the interview, which I just think is disgusting. What else? We have to have feedback meetings. They have to be open to change. They have to be honest and transparent with me and vice versa. There's There's tons of things, but on my actual slide, I think there are 6 specifically, but they're constantly changing as well. I think as the business is evolving, so do what I require from a client. So don't be scared to kind of edit your non-negotiables as you go.

I love that. And I'm really interested, Amber, have you ever had pushback? And if so, how do you deal with that? Are you like, guys, sorry, I can't work with you? Or like, how do you deal with pushback if you've had any with non-negotiables?

So I haven't had much pushback, and that's partly as well because on my Calendly invite where I invite people to this meeting, the non-negotiables are on there. So if their business doesn't match those, they know from the offset because I don't want to waste their time as much as I don't want them to waste mine. However, it's not like maybe as thorough as, you know, no dickheads, or we need feedback meetings. It's very basic. It's like you need to operate in these areas of life sciences, you need to be under 260 employees. They're the negotiables. But also, if I do have pushback, that's okay. And I think that was what was hard for me at the start as a new recruiter, is you're so desperate for business that you let your non-negotiables slide. And that's what amounts in crappy business and difficult-to-fill roles, because they don't have a good EVP, they're not a nice business to work for, and then that's why you struggle to find candidates. And also, you need to be careful of your brand and like what you're bringing to the market. And if I'm coming with a company that has a 1-star review on Glassdoor, what does that say about me that says I'm desperate for money, I'm desperate for a placement, and that is it. So if there is pushback, that's fine. There's always going to be someone out there that appreciates and agrees with our non-negotiables as a business.

I absolutely love the standard at which you work at Amber and like your willingness to not take on any client that doesn't fit with your morals and your ethics and who you want to work with.

Well, and they have so many non-negotiables for us, don't they? Like they literally have a list and I have had, especially in my early days, You know, people jump on the call, and this could have been due to my, you know, naivety and lack of experience, but they start the call like, we're not going to work any higher than 20%, we're already talking to 4 other recruiters, and people just kind of bow down and they're like, okay then, like, I'll do it. But why is it okay for them and not for me? And I think just having the confidence to put my foot down when needed has made a heck of a lot of a difference.

Absolutely love that. I think there's so many lessons in what you just said, and people should take, take that advice. Um, running a business, can we touch upon that? Me and Ben understand the emotional roller coaster, the late nights, the early mornings, you know, what it takes to, to run a business. Also the fun. It's, it's me and Ben have had a hell of a lot of laughs and fun. How's it been? I know you went, you've been in the corporate world for, uh, how many years were you at that previous business around?

5 years, but then I worked at KPMG for a year prior to that in accountancy. So as you can imagine, that's like as corporate as it gets. So yeah.

And you've recently just set up your own business, Moxie. How— what— firstly, what made you want to set up your own business? Can I just ask a bit about that?

I've always wanted to. I've— yeah, I've always wanted to own my own thing. It's always been a dream of mine, and I've known that corporate corporate wasn't going to be for me because I'm not very good at being told what to do and I'm incredibly impatient. And that's always been kind of the negative feedback that I've received in corporate. It's like, you just need to chill out. I'm definitely more of an ideas person versus being an executor, which I think has been the biggest difficulty for me to overcome as a new founder. I think you and I were talking about this briefly, Sam, is like the balance of working on the business versus in the business. And I think naturally they most focus on in the business versus on, whereas I'm actually— I'm sorry, I'm actually the opposite. I seem to focus more on the business than in because my ideas just kind of run away with themselves. So having to be disciplined with my time and thinking, okay, what is actually going to make me money and enable me to hire and delegate? It's filling these roles and finding these roles. So that's been rough.

Yeah. And how has your life changed since you started your own business? Like, tell me some of the emotions. Is your day-to-day changed? Like, I'm just really interested in how your day-to-day or happiness levels has changed. Has that changed at all?

Yeah, I think for people in corporate roles, especially those that are naturally motivated, is what's frustrating is there's no trust. Like, I don't have to take my lunch from 1 to 2 o'clock or 2 to 3 o'clock. I'm going to get the work done no matter what because I'm motivated and driven to do so. And I hated being told what to do and when. And especially as a diabetic, you know, some days I just wouldn't sleep, and it would have made more sense for me to, you know, come in an hour later and leave an hour later, but I wasn't able to do that. And so that was the biggest kind of frustration for me was just the lack of responsibility and trust from the employers.

Yeah, I completely get that. It's pretty interesting. Um, we've only got— I've only got 2 more questions left, Amber, so thank you for your time. You've done amazing. Um, can we touch upon email marketing? Because I know you do some pretty, um, interesting and forward-thinking things. Um, as a high-level view, can you just tell us a bit about what you do with your email marketing and what's working at the moment for you?

Yeah, so stalking my data has definitely been the biggest change I've had to make because I come from— and again, I think with corporate recruitment agencies, they're not very up to date with what's changing in terms of technology stacks and what can actually help us to do our jobs. So using tools like Source Whale and just actually figuring out, okay, what's my percentage of my open rate, what's my response rate, what is equating to higher response rates, that's been really, really important. But also So something I do with case studies is in the first kind of cold email, I use a platform called StoryDoc, which guys, you should bloody download because again, it's free. So you don't need to pay anything.

I've already tested it. Brilliant. After that post I saw, I used it and it's brilliant.

Yeah, really, really good.

Oh, it's sick. Yeah. And it just honestly, I had such a good response rate. I should have found the cadence beforehand, but I think like my meetings booked out of all of the emails sent was like 39% or something. It was just under 40, which is insane. I think the normal is about 6 or 7, isn't it? Or something.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's basically an interactive case study that you can build. So it just looks, looks fancy. And also it tells you who's clicked on it, when they've clicked on it, what they've clicked on. And at the bottom of the case study, you can then link it to your calendar. So that's been incredible. And I just end the first email that I send out with a CTA pertaining to watching that case study. So I'll say something like, um, PS John, I've made you a video showing how we shortened Google's time to hire from 68 to 30 days. Would you be opposed to watching it? And then if they say, yeah, sure, would be great. I will then record me on Loom going through that case study and saying how I'd apply what we did to that business to their business and then send it over. Over. And every single one that I have got a yes from and sent over, I've then had a call with. Not all of them have amounted in workable business. I'm not that incredible, but they have all amounted in a call. And I just think that's like a real big achievement.

Yeah, that's amazing. But really cool. And so each one is personalized. So you, you kind of ask for permission to send the video. And then you take a bit, you take a case study that is directly applicable to their business and kind of match it. So this week.

Yeah, and I've done like an A/B test with just sending the video as well without asking for permission, but that did a lot worse. So just as an interesting point, just ask for the permission first and then go.

That is such a great idea. And for anyone that wants to find out or see the video, I think Amber, you actually did a post about your case study. So if you go into Amber's profile, you can see on one of her posts, she actually gives you the video and I highly recommend recommend if you want to get into email marketing and getting results, check that out because that is wicked. Um, cool. Last question that we end this with, Amber. Um, cold calling, yes or no for you personally?

Do you know what's funny? On the last podcast I went on, and I cringe because I sat on that podcast for like an hour just tearing down cold calling, whereas the reality was I was just really, really, really bad at it. And I'd had minimal training. I didn't have the confidence. I hadn't done enough cold calls because ultimately that is what makes a good cold caller. It does work okay, and it might not work for everyone, but every single ICP is different and reacts differently to different kinds of outreach. Like, I personally hate cold calls. I don't answer them if I don't know someone's number. I won't pick up the phone. For my work phone, obviously that's different, but for my personal phone, I just hate it. So for me, that wouldn't work, but someone sending me a really well thought out email would, but that doesn't mean that that's how everyone receives cold outreach. So I am definitely all for cold calling, but in a multi-channel approach. So I will do, you know, a mixture of video case studies and emails and cold calls and LinkedIn connections and in-mails, just do a bit of everything and figure out what works for that specific client.

Love it. Amber, thank you so much for coming on. I really, really enjoyed speaking to you. I'm sure Ben did as well.

I did, yes. Thank you, Amber. It was absolutely brilliant.

Thank you, guys, and I love the podcast. Keep it up. I will be stalking every episode like the sado that I am.

I love it. You're like one of our favorite listeners, so it's awesome.

I know everyone's like, how do you have the time to listen to all these podcasts? I'm like, guys, you make the time in the shower, when you're walking your cat on a Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode.

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