This Recruiter built a $6 Million Business - Here are his core principles

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Greg Benediba. Greg runs his own recruitment firm and is doing $6 million in revenue with a relatively small team. He's a brilliant speaker and he has truly mastered his craft. Today we're going to be speaking about why Greg being adopted as a baby has given him a super interesting perspective on gratitude, why adopting BD as a mindset instead of learning a specific strategy is the key to winning more clients. And Greg is going to be telling us a bit about how he systemized his business and how he thinks about systems in order to scale his business. Guys, we hope you enjoy this episode. Ben and I really enjoyed speaking to Greg. And as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Greg, thank you so much for joining us today, my friend. How are you doing?

I'm doing great, Ben. Thank you so much for your time, and I appreciate being here.

Amazing. And I have to bring this up early because I asked you the same question literally about a few minutes ago, and you responded with outstanding. And then I asked you why, and your response was, was quite touching. And I feel like we should touch upon that. Would you mind just— I know it's sometimes hard to repeat yourself on something that's so close to your heart, but would you mind just kind of sharing with the audience what you said to me earlier?

You know, you ask me how I'm doing, and I am doing outstanding. I mean, life, life is great. You know, a quick, quick side note. I was adopted at the age of 2 days old by a wonderful Moroccan family, my parents. And, you know, my birth mother could have easily, as a young single mom, could have easily aborted me. Right. And I keep that in my mind every single day. The blessing that I have that she went ahead, gave birth, put me up for adoption. I mean, that, that, that's a hard thing for someone to do. And then for parents to come in and adopt me and give me love and teach me languages and principles of life. I'm blessed. I mean, it's, it's a beautiful thing. I think we're all very lucky to be alive, God willing, to be healthy and to be able to perform a function like recruitment, which is something obviously we'll delve into. But being able to impact people's lives, I think it's important to keep that into perspective through all of the stuff that we go through as recruiters is to be mindful of the fact that we're lucky to be doing something that we love.

That's such an amazing mindset. Um, and it's funny because, you know, when you're, when you're stuck in the day-to-day, when problems are happening, when deals fall through, um, you just forget about the reality of, of actually how lucky we are. It almost goes out the window. It doesn't even compute in like the average brain. For me, I definitely don't sit here and think, you know, on an average day how lucky I am. I think the human brain is, is geared towards like what's, what's wrong, what's missing. What's the problem?

You know, you guys are double lucky. What are the odds of twins being born? I mean, think of that, right? I mean, you guys have been blessed with a beautiful partnership through brotherhood. I mean, that's unique. It's a beautiful thing. And, you know, if you look at the stats, I would say that that's a very low probability. So, I mean, that's another area to be grateful about. So, I think to be grateful and to wake up to be grateful every single day is important. It, it helps you have a 30,000-foot view rather than being stuck under the clouds, uh, every single day. You know, when a plane goes above the clouds, it's amazing to see that the sun is still there. So remembering that and, uh, then going back with that perspective into your problems, it'll give you a whole new angle on how to tackle them.

I almost feel like I need to set aside 10 minutes at the end of the day or the beginning and remind myself exactly what you said, Greg. Just like, hey, like, I'm grateful the odds of me being alive, I'm healthy, like that. Because the reason I say put aside time is because you almost need to remind yourself if it's not— if you're not conditioned to do that, don't you? Unlike— I don't know how you do it, Greg, if it's just like completely conditioned in your brain now, but I almost need to set aside like 10 minutes at the end of the day to do that reminder of gratitude.

I think, I think you should do it at the beginning and the end of the day. So I practice TM, Transcendental Meditation. Uh, it was not easy for me, I'll tell you. Meditating and sitting there doing nothing was a challenge and a half. It still is on some days. Uh, but it's called a practice for a reason, right? You have to practice, and you have to make it something that you do every day. And so 5:00 AM is my wake-up call. That's, uh, as the coffee's brewing, I'm meditating. Then, uh, after that, I go into learning and reading before the gym. And that's my practice. And then end of day, same thing. I cap it off with another meditation to be able to go into my household as a father and not a, a busy CEO with a, with a mind full of things. It's, it's good to reset. It's almost like restarting your computer, you know, when your computer is running wonky. Yeah, you do a good old restart and then all of a sudden things are working, which is, uh, which is what you need to do with your brain. Your brain very much is a computer. And during that meditation, even if it's not like a formal meditation, you could be listening to a beautiful song that you love and reminding yourself to be grateful. Set a reminder on your iPhone, you know, 5:30, 6:00 AM, whenever you get up, practice 5 minutes of gratefulness. You know, start to list off the things you're grateful for. Think of your partners in your life, the people in your life. Start to be grateful for them. Think of your teams. Be grateful for them. It'll give you a whole new outlook on how you operate. And I I think obviously that's a part of the mindset factor, but it's a practice and it's something you need to make mandatory to live a good life. I mean, again, we're lucky to be here.

Absolutely. Thank you, Greg. That's a lovely start to the podcast. We actually skipped the first question, so I'm gonna go back to that one, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be mindset, strategy, or software?

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, for me, it's It's my principles. You know, mindset is obviously everything. Let's, let's not get that wrong. I think that that's very important. But mindset is shaped through principles. So one book that I read a long time ago was Ray Dalio's book Principles, and he really defines principles as fundamental truths. So the way in which we navigate situations. And what I've done over the 20 years that I've been in recruitment is I've taken the time to crystallize principles. So think of it this way, you know, life is a game. We're playing at this game, we're having fun along the way, we're dealing with problems, dealing with situations. Every time you encounter a problem and you are able to then work through that problem to come up with a solution, generally speaking, you can crystallize a principle out of that. And what a principle is, is really a framework by which you can make future decisions. You know, it comes from one of my principles, which is to do once and to do well. So when you do things once, but you do them extremely well, you don't need to do them any longer. And it's a big shortcut in life. And so what I found in my first few years of recruitment is that I was having to rethink through some of the same problems that I've had. And I thought to myself, you know, why am I doing this? The first time I thought through this was excellent enough. It's just that I didn't go that extra step, which is to crystallize a principle. Think of a principle as if you're, you know, going through this game and you've created a solution. Well, the gem that you get out of that solution is a principle. And if you take the time to crystallize that, you now have a multitude of things. You have a benchmark by which to make your decisions in the future. You also have a training mechanism by which to be able to train your teams. You have a tool to be able to assist you when you're in the weeds. Because what happens is when we're in the weeds and we're— when we're dealing with problems, we're at the top of the ocean. If you think of the top of the ocean, you've got these waves. It's very wavy. So in our day-to-day activity, like right now, we're at a part of the conscience where we're in a wavy state. We're dealing with each other, we're interfacing. Sometimes things are wavier. Times are wavier than other times. And when we're in a storm, when things are going crazy, it's very hard to think critically in that moment because we're subject to all sorts of emotions. And so by having a framework of principles, what it allows you to do is to think in a very clear manner. As to the next course of action. And so that's what I've done for my group here. This is something I plan on releasing to the world, um, very soon actually. The manuscript is created, it's now in the editing process, the book Recruitment Principles. And, you know, internally I've crystallized a GPT where my team can start to plug in their problems to see what the correct thing to do is so that we're not acting on emotion. We're acting in a very logical manner that is always centered around customer service and helping the customer, whether that be client, candidate, or team, helping each other in a positive way and not being subjected to ego or emotion or a bunch of other things that, that come along with poor decision-making. So that is the number one tool in my toolkit are the principles that I've cultivated over time to assist me me in making the right decisions. Quite frankly, I designed the tool for myself because there have been times where I've, I've made a lot of mistakes, guys. I mean, you know, I've, I've done the wrong things because of emotion, because I wasn't in the right mindset at that time. And I wish I had had somebody tap me on the shoulder and say, Greg, you're about to make a mistake. You should do it this way, not this way. This is more skillful. And so that's why I've designed that framework.

Amazing. Um, do you mind me asking, Greg, what, um, in terms of the principles that have been the most effective at helping you solve problems, you know, whether it's, you know, I don't know what problems you'll encounter. I'm sure there's a plethora of problems you encounter in recruitment when you're scaling a business. If there was like one or two principles that other people could take away that they could possibly use in their own lives, what would they be, do you think?

Yeah, it's a great question. Don't take anything personally. It's a big one, and it was a tough pill for me to swallow at first. I got to be honest, I was young, full of piss and vinegar ego. You know, we were all there. Don't take anything personally. Nothing that anybody does is because of you. It's because of them. They're living their own reality. You know, if, if I, you know, decide to insult you, Ben— okay, Ben, my God, that, that white t-shirt, ugh, how could you wear that? Now you're laughing, you're not taking it personally because you know it's a beautiful t-shirt, and inside of yourself you feel great about wearing it. It's a nice shirt, I like it. But if I'm insulting you That's a mere reflection of me. It's not a reflection of you. And so not taking things personally is a practice in and of itself, to constantly and never-endingly remind yourself that obviously Greg is suffering. He's decided to insult me. It's not true. This is a beautiful t-shirt. It probably cost me a pretty penny. And He's obviously going through something. And so that principle has really helped shape a lot of things, you know, when it comes to clients. Let's just say a client ghosts you. Well, you know, there's a lot of reasons why clients do that. Are you taking it personally? Is, is there a moment in time where you're like, oh, I can't believe they're doing that to me, instead of thinking critically and saying, hmm, Did I follow my process? Did I do everything I was supposed to to ensure that this relationship was nurtured to the point where no such thing would happen? Is there something else going on behind the scenes that I'm not aware of? That leads me to my second principle, which is don't assume. Assumptions are the root of all mistakes. It's very simple. Oftentimes we make assumptions. We think we know what's going on on the other side when in fact we don't. We assume because our brain is wired to save energy. Asking questions takes a lot of energy. It takes time, takes effort. So what we do is we fill in the gaps with what we think the person might be doing or what we think the person might be saying. And that's a mistake because oftentimes those assumptions can lead us to several different errors in judgment. Instead, what we need to do is not assume and know that we don't know. Therefore, we need to ask, we need to find out, we need to dig. How many times has this happened to you guys? I mean, guys, you've made an assumption, right, about something in your process with a client, with a candidate, with whomever, even with yourselves. You've made an assumption that you think you know what's going on on the other side. Then you uncover the truth and you realize, shoot, I was wrong. And every single negative emotion that ensued after that assumption was a waste of energy. Instead, you could have saved your energy to ask the right questions and not assume. So that's a second principle. So these, these are really the principles that have really helped me shape the way that I think as a recruiter. The way that I operate as a leader, the way that I operate as a husband, as, as a father, as a community member. And my role now at this point in my life is to give back. Truth be told, being on camera for me is a very foreign thing. I don't do this quite often. I mean, this is my third podcast and I'm honored. But I mean, I think it's now my duty to give back to the world, to share the things that I've learned, to help empower, you know, another generation of recruiters into the future, because this is the best profession in the world. And I wish somebody had tapped me on the shoulder in year one to say, Greg, you're taking things personally. Greg, you're making assumptions. Don't do that. It's a mistake. It's going to cost you so much in terms of relationships, in terms of clout, in terms of reputation. And it's going to hurt you, hurt you, hurt you. And at the end of the day, you're only hurting yourself by doing these things. So hope that helps.

Yeah, massively lovely. Um, we're gonna shift the questions a little bit. Um, I, I feel like we could, we could spend a whole podcast on mindset principles and your way of thinking, Greg, because you've got a very, got a very— I've said this pre-call as well, Greg— you've got a very, um, you've got an amazing way of articulating things. Um, and I feel it's quite hypnotic. I'm not sure if— I think Sam's in the same mindset as me because I can see the way he's just been listening intently. Normally he's, uh, talking a lot more than me. Um, but going to the next question, um, I'd love to dive into a little bit about BD. It tends to be a, a very popular topic with recruiters because, let's be honest, BD is hard. It varies quite a lot from sector to sector. There's different channels, different methods. I'd love to just start off with what have you found to be the most successful channel area or technique with regards to BD, Greg, for your business?

The most important thing about business development is to first love it. You have to love it. I loved business development. You know, I started here as a recruiter. Truth be told, I was a terrible recruiter. I was, my first 6 months was chock full of fall-offs. I mean, people didn't work out. It was terrible. I'm glad they kept me. I think the only reason they kept me is because I was putting so much talk time on the board And I was making the calls and they figured, okay, this kid, he's bumbling around right now, but eventually he's going to learn to run, right? Now he can't even crawl properly. I was, I was a terrible recruiter. I mean, I thought I knew what a good candidate looked like and I learned the hard way that I didn't. I wanted to get into BD so bad, so bad. I wanted it. They didn't let me at first. You know, it took about 9, 10, 11 months, I think. Before they said, okay, give the kid a kick at the can. You know, I was 25 years old, 26 at that time. Um, let him, let him, let him go and develop business. I hammered the phone. Why? Because I loved it. Here's why I loved it. I knew that these clients all had the same challenge, which was to find star talent. Finding star talent is hard. I don't care what market you're in, it's challenging. I mean, you know, I got a database of about 100,000 candidates. We've placed about 7,000 of them. So let's call it 7%. I could probably take that same metric and look at it across the world. 7% of the people out there are probably fee candidates. So it's hard to find that 7% to interface with them, to be able to attract them. These are smart people. They've got the right questions they need to know. So when it, when it came to business development, my philosophy was this: these clients, whether they know it or not, whether the time is right or not right now, they're going to need me eventually. So my job was to go out there and serve. I wanted to make my mark. I wanted to make sure to build a network. I was like a machine, man. I was pumping out 60 calls a day. I was sending out— back then we were sending out stuffed envelopes with information packets, right? I mean, now I love that a little bit more advanced, but we were sending out information packets. I mean, I remember my manager once came to me and he said, Greg, you know, we've had to buy stamps numerous times because of you. Who are you sending all this information to? Like, have you actually called these people? And I assured him, I said, yes, you know, I have spoken to each one and I can assure you that They are looking forward to receiving our information. And the orders rolled in. There was a point in time where I was writing up 25 to 30 permanent search assignments per month.

Wow. Impressive.

I would look to fill about half of them myself. And then I would have the team fill the other half. You know, back then in 2006, I think our top biller was earning $450,000 a year. I was able to propel that number to close to $800,000, $756,000. Was, was what I was doing commonly. And I led that for about 12 years. I was the top biller in the company and then eventually groomed other top billers alongside me. Business development is a framework. It's a mindset. It has to be your modus operandi. It has to be the way by which you operate. The entire company needs to be focused on business development. You have to be acutely aware of client generation at every turn. So I'll put it simply and I'll give you very simple tactics. You know, recruiters are looking at what, 50, 60, 100 resumes a day? Let's just say, think of all the data on those resumes. Are we looking at those resumes simply through the first lens of recruitment, which is how do I help that person? How do I assist this candidate? Are they truly looking to make a change? What's their salary? What's their location? What are they looking for? But what about the second lens, which is business development? Looking at each company on that CV to say, hmm, do each company on— does each company on this CV say Company A, B, and C? Do they use recruiters? So when you're speaking to the candidate, finding out how did you get that job? Did you apply directly through an advertisement, or did you speak to a recruiter? Good data for you to know. How big was your team? Who does the recruiting there? Who's the HR contact that you interviewed with when you first started there? Now, obviously, these are questions that you get into when you've warmed up the conversation. You can't go in cold with such questions. But I think it's, again, it's about being acutely aware of client generation. Think, think of all the resumes we've seen in our lives. Imagine if I could aggregate a list of all the clients on those resumes. That'd be very valuable, wouldn't it be? Yet we all have access to this today, and how many of us are actually doing it? That's the question, isn't it? How many LinkedIn profiles do we look at on a daily basis? Have we looked at those companies to see if they're potential clients? Have we looked at those companies to see if there may be potential candidates? Again, that's the third lens in, in the recruitment function. Again, that's one simple fix. That can be done internally. And I think this is something that needs to be reiterated and taught by leadership. So if, if such programming, let's call it, has not been instilled in your organization, speak to your leaders. And, and if the leaders aren't doing anything about it, you lead, meaning you start. I mean, that's, that's how I did it in my business. I, I, I was a simple recruiter. I treated my desk as my business. Little did I know that eventually it would become my business, but it didn't start out that way. I, I treated my desk as my business. So every single profile that I would look at, I would mine that profile for leads to find out who the clients are, who the hiring authorities are, who are the line managers in each corporation. And then I would get busy contacting them. I, I don't want to sound egotistical because that's not the place that I'm coming from, but I will say this: I think that every hiring manager that you speak to is lucky to be speaking with a partner like yourself because you have an expertise in your particular niche. You know, they're busy being a line manager. You've recruited hundreds, if not thousands of people. There's value in that. So don't debase that value. In fact, you should edify yourself when you're making those calls to make sure that those line managers know that they're speaking to a partner, somebody who has authority in that marketplace, and that can bring value to them. It might not be today in terms of an order, but there's a lot of different things you can do to bring value. I'll give you some examples around that. I mean, I had a client the other day call me saying, Greg, we have a problem. Our, our team has been missing on certain customer service points. Now she's got a team of engineers. These are all engineers, right? Engineers are not CSRs. They're not. They've never been in a call center. They've never been on a queue unless they maybe worked it when they were younger, but they've been engineers. They don't know the principles of customer service. So a value add that I'm doing is I'm heading out there to go teach her company the principles of customer service and how to deal with clients properly, how to not make mistakes. That's a business development activity. When, when you go above and beyond for your clients and you do things that are outside of the scope of recruitment, you're giving 10-star service, not 5-star service. And now you are regarded as an authority. And when they have a wreck, who do you think they're going to go to? You think they're going to try it on their own? Are they going to say, well, I'm never going to recruit as much as Greg will? I mean, they're going to give you the order every time, exclusively, I might add. Hmm.

I love that. I love that. I love the concept of just going above and beyond for clients. It's such a— me and Ben are very similar mindset, Greg, and it's just such a— it's such a rare mindset to have in this day and age, I think, where you will go above and beyond to serve the client in every as long as they are a good fit client, that is. That's, that's keeping in mind that they are, you know, there's someone you want to work with and you see value in the partnership. But it's such a simple but powerful mindset to have. Um, yeah, I don't really have a follow-up question. I just, I just love it. Just, I just want to go back to the CV. You said a lot of— you shared a lot of golden nuggets there, Greg. But I haven't heard— I'm sure there might be recruiters that do this as well, but I haven't heard someone on the, on Top Billers still get hit with have actually worded it in that way, actually, you know, going through the CVs and looking at the previous companies and the current companies they've worked with. So I guess one of your main BD methods, Greg, amongst others, is, is really starting with the candidate, right? And asking good questions to the candidate, getting information to then speak to hiring managers and decision makers in other companies. I just think that's a really— it's a brilliant little golden nugget there for And the interesting thing is most of the top billers that we speak to, it always starts with a candidate. Like, it always starts with the candidate when it comes to getting new business, which makes perfect sense. Um, would you say that's your main— would you say that the majority of your revenue comes from that method, Greg, or is it something else?

There's a wide variety of things that we do. Again, it's about the acute awareness around a client and candidate generation. Now, I do have to give credit where credit is due. Nothing that I'm teaching you guys here did I invent. You know, I stand on the shoulders of the giants before me. Mike Walmsley, great UK recruiter. He's an OG, let's put it that way. I got his DVDs right in that cabinet. I watched those DVDs 100 times. I, I learned 3D recruitment from him. You've got guys like Steve Finkel, another OG in the industry. When I first started, I got every single one of the books that I could, and I read them all. Again, business development is a multifaceted topic. Can it start with the candidate? Sure. It can also start with the client. Think about all the clients that you're dealing with. You're aiming to provide great service to each and every one of them. Your focal point is customer service, servicing their needs properly, truly identifying what the pain points are, what the problems are, and then going in and fixing them. Now we're doing all of that work. Are we navigating their network as well? So this is not a matter of client or candidate. It's a matter of making a practice out of being acutely aware of client and candidate generation at every turn. You can get candidates out of clients. You can get clients out of clients. You can get candidates out of candidates. You can get clients out of candidates. It goes both ways. So it's not about one or the other. It's about both. It's about a practice. It's about being aware so that you can have an agenda in your call. Now, the Our first agenda is always to help the candidate. This is not a pump and dump scheme. We don't do that to people. Again, it's a big principle of mine is to act ethically and to do things well, or don't do them at all. That being said, in helping somebody, that person will want to reciprocate. It's the law of the universe. When I help you, eventually you may want to help me. Maybe not. Maybe you're not that kind of person. So be it. That's reality. You have to deal with it. It's not personal. I think a lot of people are missing out generating client referrals on the client side. Think about this, you know, you've, you've dealt with so many employers. You call them post-interview or post-placement to make sure that the client, the candidate is doing well. Are you asking them this simple question? You know, thank you so much for all your time, Ben. I really appreciate you putting that review on our website for me. That goes a long way in edifying our service. That being said, are there any other hiring authorities within or outside of your company that you think could benefit from an introduction to my service? And I leave it right there. You want to go above and beyond? Here's one. How many times do you think you've interviewed? I, I, I think I lost count. I mean, I've interviewed probably thousands of people. How many times do you think the hiring managers that you've worked with have interviewed? Probably not as many. So their interviewing skills are definitely not where yours are. Could you not create a customized set of interview questions, a pro forma, and then go— based on their industry, that is— and then go in and say, you know, let's just say I was walking into your operation. Sam, Ben, I would love to offer you guys Free interview training. Would you mind getting all of your line managers into a Zoom meeting? I prefer face-to-face personally. I'd like to come down to your office to do this personally, but if we have to do it through technology because some people are hybrid, etc., we can do it through technology. But the point is, I would like to teach your hiring authorities how to hone in on their interviewing skills. You could teach an interview course. Now, what does that do? You were once dealing with line manager A, but now you got B, C, D, E, F, and G that are all coming into the picture at the same time, and you're positioning yourself as an authority in recruitment. Yes, you are going to educate them. Yes, you are going to teach them how to interview better. By the way, that's a benefit to you. You may think to yourself, You know, that— how does that help me? I'm now teaching them how to do my job. Wrong line of thinking. It's the other way around. It's actually you're helping them in protecting themselves because you may make a submission to them in the future and they might catch something. And through the line of questioning that you've taught them, they might now realize, you know what, this person doesn't really fit our DNA, doesn't fit our value system. Thank you so much for teaching me this question. This is not the right person. You've now avoided a fall-off. Because had you made that placement and they had figured it out later, that would have been a problem for you. So I prefer to educate my clients on how to interview appropriately so that they can be armed. It's like another layer of protection that you're creating for your clients. It's a value-add, but more importantly, it gets you to network within the client organizations that you are currently working with and again position yourself as a thought leader in, in recruitment, which is perfect. Now you've got a whole bunch of other contacts. Okay. It's a simple, simple thing. But again, it's the mentality of wanting to help. And I don't do this strictly for the money, guys. I got to tell you, I mean, you know, financially, I've been rewarded very well in my life thanks to, thanks to recruitment. It's all been here. I do this because I actually care. I really do. I care. And I want to make sure that I pass along the knowledge and the wealth of information that I've gathered, the principles, the methodologies. But more importantly, I'm, I'm a CSR at my core. I mean, I've been a customer service representative my whole life. Right out of high school, I went into contact centers. I didn't go to university. I went to the school of hard knocks, right? And, and so for me, customer service has been the foundation of everything that I do. Helping other people is why we are here. And I think every business in one way or another does exactly that. So, you know, fundamentally, if you go in trying to help, you'll think of ideas, you'll think of new ways in which you can add value. And as a result, you'll make more money. Money is a byproduct of doing great work and caring about the people that you serve, point blank.

I love that. Again, you just gave so much information there, Greg. And I get what I'm Specifically from what I got from that as well, which I love, which is giving value upfront because I think that was a big lesson for me and Sam as soon as we started introducing something called a— I think I told you a little bit about it, Greg, a 2-week free trial. That was a massive lesson for me and Sam. We were like, oh my God, if we provide a ton of value upfront, the sales process becomes a lot more fun. It's no longer about selling. It's really just about demonstration. And your, your position as a thought leader or an expert before you even do business together. And that's what I'm getting from what you've done as well, Greg. You know, you're giving value upfront for free, and it's, I'm sure, allowing you to win more business. And I know the— I'm sure the driving motivator is not just for business, but I'm sure that as a byproduct, you're winning the hearts and minds of your clients as well, which I think is just a great lesson for other recruiters as well.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it builds your reputation. It gives you clout. You know, reputation is all we have at the end of the day, right? I mean, your, your name is all really you have. So guard that, protect that, but use it efficiently. The other thing about a free trial, like you just mentioned, another huge advantage, which I'm sure you are very well aware of, is the fact that in that trial, you are basically in a learning demo. You get to understand what that client is actually going through. You're getting into the weeds a little bit more rather than just asking for 30 minutes of their time for a quick demo so that they can make a decision. This is a much better approach because you, you begin to integrate. Think of, think of roots. You know, if I, if I plant a tree, it's gonna take a little bit of time for those roots to grow. Well, that's exactly what you're doing with a 2-week trial. Is you're actually embedding some roots. Now, could the tree get pulled out after the 2 weeks? Sure, could happen. And I fair to say, if a client doesn't want to work with you, they've made the right decision. If a client wants to work with you, they've also made the right decision. It's a good thing to let the clients that don't want to work with you walk away. Don't chase, attract. And that's the way to do it, is by just being you. And the right people will gravitate towards your services as a result of that. And of course, the trial will show them the value that you bring. But at the same time, it's reciprocal. It'll give you an idea, a clearer picture of what the problems are that they're facing so that you can then continue to customize your solution around that.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely love that. I just want to go back to the— because I have a feeling you've done something like this a few times, Greg, where you've approached hiring managers offered them something for free in order to get more decision makers in the room. Um, one thing that really helped me and Ben with the free trial is showing them more results. Like, it was— it's actually at the beginning, it was actually harder than me and Ben anticipated to get someone in a room even though we were offering somewhat— something for free, something we thought was really valuable. But the second we tested it out, brought people through, and actually got a lot of results, you know, people won business, people won candidate relationships, yada yada yada. I'm just curious, did you have to position yourself in any way to get all those? Because it's quite a big deal bringing like 6 hiring managers in a room, um, even for something free. So I'm curious if you had to position yourself in a different way, offer something, or like— I'm just curious how you did that. Or maybe I'm overthinking it and it's easier than anticipated.

You know what, you'd be surprised, um, when you're offering education for free, they're going to take you up on it. And I think, you know, social media has a big part to do with that. You know, the good thing about podcasts, the good thing about posting, which, which is something I need to certainly improve on, that, that muscle is atrophied. Actually, it's never been developed. Like I said, this is all very foreign to me. But, you know, at the end of the day, you want to be able to provide value. I think, I think with, with a client, if you let them know how many times you've interviewed people and you give them a small sample, like, you know, let's just say somebody was, you know, a little bit shy about that, you know, who are you? Why would you be an authority? You know, I would say, you're right. You don't know who I am just yet. You know, my name is Greg Benediba. I've been a recruiter for over 20 years. How many of your placements that you've made internally in your corporation have not worked out in the last year? Start right there with their fall-off ratio. So I'll just go right for the pain point because I know where the pain point is. I already know. So nobody's got recruitment perfect. Listen, I'm trying to perfect recruitment every single day. We still don't have it perfect. There's no such thing. It doesn't exist. So no corporation can tell me with, with 100% certainty that they've got their recruitment process so down pat that they not only have longevity in each one of their hires, but not one person in the last 10 years has not worked out. Haven't heard it. I mean, maybe you guys have. Tell me if somebody has out there. I'd love to hear from you. I would love to hear from you because I could learn from you. But I can assure you that at some point or another, There have been hiring authorities that have made mistakes. Why is that? I'll tell you why. What are the adjectives that hiring managers use when they call a recruiter back to hire somebody? They use things like, I really liked her. Oh my God, we loved her. Oh, I liked him. You know what, he, he was so like this. He was so like, like Love. Those are the adjectives. Those are emotional adjectives. Every decision that is made is an emotional decision. You bought that microphone because you liked it. It's as simple as that. And could it have been better? Sure. Were there better technical specifications? Sure. Did you think about the sound and how the bass would sound? Fantastic. You did that, I'm sure. But you liked it. That's the bottom line. People hire people that they like. That's not necessarily the right way to hire. So I start by informing employers that the truth, right, which is most hiring decisions are made within 3 minutes of meeting somebody. The rest of the time, the rest of the interview is spent aggregating information to prop up the cognitive bias that has originally been made. So what does that mean? I like this person. The whole time I'm finding more information to fulfill that initial perspective. And so what I teach is to actually reserve judgment to the end. Don't make a call. Don't make a call at all. Wait. Patience. What this does for you is it forces you to ask the right questions. We've all been there, right, where we get wrapped into an interview, we get excited. Oh my God, this is my person. I really like them. And, and we forget to ask the key questions that will truly uncover the data by which we should be able to make a proper decision. You can increase your probability of being right in a hire through the line of questioning that you use. And this is what I teach employers. So, I mean, if, if me saying that to an employer doesn't sell the fact that I can help their people interview better, fantastic. They're not for me. So be it.

And we move on. Yeah, it's interesting. Really interesting. But again, I guess it's fascinating because the way that you frame that as well was really interesting. You know, if you just said, hey, I can help you, I've got these interview questions. I can help you improve your hiring by sharing these interview questions. You kind of, you broke it down in a very logical, scientific way, I guess. And yeah, you just really sold it and you framed it in a way that made it so much more powerful, which is everything's about framing, isn't it? Which I've noticed about sales.

You need to understand what you're talking about first. So you can't, you can't be talking out of your you know what. I mean, you've got to, you've got to be you've got to be educated on this topic. So one thing that I do, like I mentioned, every day I meditate, but then I read for, for 30 to 40 minutes before I hit the gym. And that's been a part of my process for as long as I can remember. As a direct result of that, I've heard so many great podcasts such as yours. I've read so many great books. I've listened to so many great YouTube videos. You need to gain perspective. If, if somebody wants to learn more on the topic of how to interview appropriately and how to get the DNA right, read Recruit Rockstars by Jeff Hyman. It's a fantastic book. In fact, you know, I've taken that entire methodology and helped to reshape the way that we recruit, which is again to find out what the true DNA is of that team, getting closer and closer to hiring. I don't just want to make a placement. This is the point. The point is I don't just want to make a placement. I want to make a great placement. I want to, I want to look at the level of the talent density of the teams that I serve and be able to bring it up a notch. You know, you know, when you're on a team and they bring on a star player, well, what happens? You start to pull up your socks a little bit, don't you? Saying, oh, okay, this is where we're going. I'm going to start to pull up my socks a little bit. I, you know what? I'm going to show who I am. That competitiveness gets rekindled when you bring an A+ player into an already existing A team. You've now changed the very dynamic in the fabric of that corporation or that team. Everybody talks about culture. You don't manufacture culture. Culture is simply decided by who it is you put into the mix. It's as simple as that. You know, if you're a DJ and you're playing records, you're playing the right record after the other one, or does this record sound completely awkward in the sequence of records that you're playing, right? And I am a DJ, so I'll tell you, I love, I love, I love playing dance music, and picking the right tunes is important. And it's the same thing with people. You want to pick the right people that are going to further propel your culture. Culture is not something you put on a mantle or preach about or discuss with your team or try to preach. You're going the wrong way if you're doing that. Culture is simple. It is decided upon by the team, by who you integrate. When you bring somebody into your culture, all of a sudden you've modified your culture to a certain degree. Some, some key players could modify the culture quite a bit. And again, that's the A+ talent that we're talking about. And that's my whole modus operandi. That's exactly what I want to do for the employers that I serve. Because I mean, and I've got cases like there have been groups where I've placed literally 250 people in their company. I've literally reshaped the very fabric of that organization through this method, billing quite a bit. As well, I might add. But fundamentally, it's the impact that you can have with this profession. And that's why I'm always doing great because I love what we do.

So love that, Greg. I'd love to touch upon because you're in quite a, there's not many people, Greg, that manage to scale a business. And I know you've got quite ambitious plans. And if you feel comfortable talking about, would love to go into that as well. But I just feel like you've probably learned a lot of lessons with scaling the business, hiring team members, building systems. I'd love to go into that because there's probably a lot of kind of small teams, solo builders listening to this that probably aspire to be in your position. But, you know, there's probably a few mistakes they could avoid along the way. So are there any things, any key lessons you've learned that you could share with our audience?

Yeah. Oh, there's, there's a lot to go into on that topic. You know, some people have a recruitment business as a lifestyle business. I think that's okay. You know, if, if you're just doing this for a lifestyle business, that's cool. Okay, no pressure, do your thing. If you're like me and you want to grow, I think the most important thing you have to do first and foremost is to have a very clear vision as to what it is you want to see in the future. A leader's job is very simple. A leader's job is to have the vision for the future and then to have a steady hand on the ship, to not rock the boat, keep it steady. You're going to need to make changes along the way, that's okay, but the steady hand is important. We are going towards this vision. Simple as that. Okay, now how do we get there? Okay, so if you're a solo biller, you want to grow, I would tell you to start small. Don't think of these large ambitious goals and just go full tilt. You know, I've seen a lot of organizations do this where they take on a great deal of expenditure, a great deal of payroll, and they get themselves into hot water. It happened in '07, '08, '09. It happened again in— during COVID I mean, listen, I, I heard of companies going and investing hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, in opening up new offices, and the market just vanished. It vanished right underneath your feet. We went from zero to— from, from here to zero in a minute. I mean, I remember COVID, I went from like 150 requisitions to 20. In a matter of a few weeks. It happens, okay? You gotta listen. It's reality. It's not personal. These are not things you can control. So what I would tell you is, you know, don't buy too much house. Start small, but do things well. So if I was a solo recruiter and I wanted to grow my business, it'd be very simple. I would find a good recruiter and I would mold them. Then I would find another good recruiter and I would mold them. Then I would find another one and I would mold them. If you want to be a leader, you have to realize first and foremost— and by the way, that's a whole other transition from being a top biller to all of a sudden a manager— it's a different game. And you have to really ask yourself this question first and foremost: do I want to teach? Do I take joy and pleasure from teaching? For me, the answer was yes, because I saw the impact that I've been able to have. Like, I mean, you know, I hired one of my gentlemen here who, who now has two properties. He's doing fantastic. Like, I've hired other people who are doing extremely well, and for me, I take great pride and pleasure from that, knowing that I had a little hand in developing that person, developing people is the hardest thing to do in, in the recruitment function. So ask yourself that question first and foremost and be honest with yourself. If you're lying to yourself thinking, you know what, yeah, I'd be great at that, I'd love it, and deep down inside you just want to bill, don't do it. You're going to make a mess out of everything. Grow organically. Start to get the right people on board. You need a core team that you're going to build. Then you need to figure out what your total addressable market is. Do your research and then find out ways to penetrate that market, whether it be through digital marketing, whether it be through the traditional methods that I've spoken about today. There's a wide gamut of things that you can do to get there, but I would start to grow in that fashion just so that when headwinds do come, when the economy does get pulled under our feet again, because it happens, I mean, cyclically, it happens on average every, every 10 years, right? We get a major recession, right? COVID was a bit of an anomaly. I think we felt that recession in the last year, to be frank. My anticipation is we're going into a major growth period, but there will be a recession again. You can count on it. By 2035, you got to be ready, man. There's going to be another time where the rug is going to be pulled under your feet. So operate with no debt. I have no debt whatsoever, don't owe a penny to anybody, and, and that's the way to do things. Now, I know a lot of people preach leverage. It's not my style. I don't like to use leverage. Be scrappy, be innovative with what you do. Instead of buying tools, can you innovate and make them yourself? Why not? We're in a world now where we've got access to coding tools where you can make anything. I mean, I was able to make a chess game in 5 minutes. Pretty cool. So what we've got, we've got tools now that are, that are like, I mean, listen, this is the golden age, guys. Like, I'm like a kid in a candy store right now with all the tools that we have. It's amazing. Are you kidding me? This is the best. So now you just, you're limited by the thinking that you have. So what's your vision? How do you want to get there and do so in a sustainable fashion? Because Always be thinking, if half of my business was taken away from me today, what would I be doing? What would happen to the business? Would I survive? And if you've got a lot of leverage, no bueno.

I'm sure a lot of business owners can relate to this comment in the sense that if there's areas of the business you don't like, you can either find someone to do it for you or you have to kind of change who you are as a person. And maybe shatter some belief systems. I'm wondering, Greg, as you've been scaling your business, are there any, like, belief systems that you had to shatter in order to grow to the level that you are?

Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I'm, I'm at that point now where I'm starting to slowly but surely remove myself from the business. Um, you know, as much as I've contributed to this firm, I don't want to be its bottleneck in the future. Uh, so one move that I've made now— I mean, right now we're at, uh, 15 players. I just hired a recruitment manager because I've got, I've got roughly about 18 open desks back there. So it's time and we need to scale now. So hiring that recruitment manager was a great move. It kind of, and listen, I love to educate. I love to be there with my team. I love to train them and teach them methodologies. And of course, having to train him is a pleasure. But, you know, I think that's the thing is being able to look at your time and say, okay, what is the 80% that I should no longer be doing? Right? And my, my good friend Arash recommended a book to me which has been fundamental in that thinking, which is 10x Is Easier Than 2x by Dan Sullivan.

I'm going to write that down.

It's a great book. And I actually took it and I, I created a GPT out of it to make sure that I'm thinking straight. But In this book, basically it tells us that, you know, we need to look at what we're doing every single day. So every single task you guys are doing from now on, think about it this way: is this a 20% task that I should continue to do, or is this an 80% task that I eventually need to delegate? And I think that every time we're able to systematically do this— and, and I'll be clear, some things you can't delegate overnight, they may take a year to delegate something. Some things could take 6 months to delegate. Some things could take 3 months to delegate. But you got to figure out a way to do it to free up your time to be able to focus on the existing 20%. And that will be a level up. That will be a 10x moment where you've now 10x yourself. And then your job will be to do it again. So within that 20%, what is the 80% that you need to eliminate to then focus on the higher leverage points, the 20% that you should still be focused on. And, you know, I think whether people are conscious of this or not, they've done this throughout their lives. You know, when you guys started this podcast, that was a 10x moment for you. You know what, that was a pivotal time, right? A lot went into that. A lot went into changing the way that you did things to get it to function this way. And I respect that. There's a lot of work there. I think that we all have done this, whether consciously or subconsciously, whether by force or by intent. It's something that we've done. So that's what I'm focused on right now. And I'll be focused on this for the rest of my life, to be honest. I mean, I will continuously and never-endingly be looking at the things that I no longer should be doing so that I can then focus in on the 20% that actually yields the most, which is the leverage points. And, and I think that if we do that, we'll systematically get better and better. So it's a simple exercise, you know, throughout your day, throughout your week, throughout your month, look at all the tasks that you're actually doing and think to yourself, what should I no longer be doing? Probably some ideas are coming to your mind right now, you know, things that you know that you're still doing that you shouldn't be doing. And either you can delegate them to somebody that's already within your group or you need to hire, or you can outsource, or you can get a VA, or whatever. It's, it's that we got so many options right now. Again, you're only limited by your thinking. It's a beautiful thing. This is all mindset. It's all about the way that you see the world and the vision for, for what you want. Um, you know, on our wall here in French, I might add, because we're a bilingual agency, right? It says, now, to translate to English is It means everything is possible. And I believe that it's true. Everything is possible. Why can you not take your firm to $100 million, $200 million? What's stopping you from doing that? It's your systems. It's the way that you're thinking. It's your mindset. There's a lot to be said there. Now, systems are very important, so I'll get into that for a second because I think, I think it's a very important topic and it's something that needs to be covered appropriately. I don't take my systems for granted. And I know we've all heard James Clear's quote, you know, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. I like to kind of paint that in a different way. You will only reach your goals when you elevate your systems to the correct level.

I love that.

Now, it's hard to do. Trust me, I'm in the weeds too. I'm still billing, by the way. So I've got a desk going. I've got clients, I got candidates. There's a lot going on. I still love it. That's why I'm a bit of a— I love it. I love being in the weeds. I love talking to people. So it's fun when you're, when you're a recruiter. Okay, let's just say you're a solo recruiter or you're managing a team, whatever it might be. You've got the time that you're working in your business, but you also need to devote a lot of time to work on your business. And those are two fundamentally very different things. For me, the weekends are where I do that. I don't work all day on the weekends. I'm talking about a good solid 4-hour chunk while my family's still asleep because I'm up at 5 AM on the weekends regardless. And so 5 to 9, I plug away, man. And that's when I'm actually working on the business. So what that means is creating systems, procedures, protocols, documenting everything so that it's then accessible for my team. So when we think of our candidate process, okay, has everybody taken the time to actually chart the candidate process, create a flowchart? Not only is this good for you as a leader, but it's good for your team to make sure that everybody's on the same page when it comes to the process. This can be a very dynamic sheet. Like for us, we've got a beautiful sheet where people can click and it takes them to the correct Notion page with all the particular data for that. So that if they're lost in the weeds, oh yeah, where's that page? Boom, they could just click. It's easy, it's there. But more importantly, what this does is it allows you to think of all of the touch points. Touch points are very important. We've only got so many of them in the recruitment process with a candidate. When you're doing a pre-screen, of course, your outreach on LinkedIn or however it is you found that person, that's very important. The way in which you craft your emails, It's important. Take pride in the way that you write. Take pride and be honorable with your word. The way in which you conduct yourself on a phone screen, the way in which you then conduct yourself on an MS Teams interview or a face-to-face, the way that you prepare a candidate for an interview. I take great pride in preparing people for interviews. I want them to win. I like them. Again, emotional. I like them. I want them to win. And so I prepare them. I take great care in preparing people for interviews. I ask them tough questions, by the way. When I interview, I really grill people because it's not that I want to hurt them. It's that I want to see them fumble so that I can then teach them how not to. Right? How they call you back after the interview. What you do in that call is very important. Same thing after the second interview, what you do in the follow-up call, how you handle the entire offer process, the follow-up after the offer, making sure that they don't take that counter if they've had any exit interviews, whatever has gone on in the process, making sure to be there. That experience— we are in the experience economy. Whether you realize it or not, you are in the experience economy. The experience that you're delivering for your clients and candidates alike, and I might add your team as a leader, is paramount to everything. Now, how do we get this right? You gotta chart it out. Now, when you chart out your entire process, and that takes time, again, this is working on, on your business, not in your business, right? So this has gotta be done separate from your desk time. When you take the time to do all of that, you can now look at all the touch points and figure out where you're failing, where you're falling short in terms of communication, and also what can be automated, which is a whole other topic. Okay, we got to be very careful as recruiters about what we automate. We are very much in a human business. I think it was Greg Savage that said it best, uh, AI is about the marriage of science and the art of recruitment. It's, it's what it is. Never lose the art of the human touch because that's not going anywhere. You know, influencing outcomes and what we do as recruiters is, is absolutely paramount. But it all starts with charting the process. If you don't have your process properly charted, you're going to grow into dysfunction. Is what's gonna happen. And I've been there before. Trust me, it's not fun because then you've got an archaic model where everybody's kind of running around like chickens with their head cut off, not knowing where they're heading, which is dysfunctional. It creates all kinds of problems and disarray in your organization. You need a model.

Love that, Greg. That was really interesting. My next question was gonna be around, cuz I feel like systems is a, is as you say, probably a topic that we could talk about for a whole hour and still not get through everything. What me and Sam have been learning and still continue to learn is a system to build systems. I know it sounds a bit, a bit funny wording it like that, but you know, we didn't go through, I don't think any of us go through school or go through even university and no one really teaches you how to build systems. And it's only from reading, you know, great books that I started to kind of unravel the beginning stages of building systems. Is there like a— is there a nugget that you've learned in terms of how you're able to build systems and stick with it to the point where it can run without you or run functionally and at a good level? Is there any kind of golden nuggets you have to actually building systems, do you think? So we've got it, you know, I think one really useful part was spending 4 hours a day, 4 hours on the weekend mapping processes, writing SOPs. Is there any other like big epiphanies you've had from building systems, you think, Greg?

Yeah, I think, you know, when you get to a point where you have a team, I think it's very important to empower everybody. You know, 10 heads are better than one. It's true, right? So empower everybody to bring ideas to the table. This does a couple of different things. It fosters buy-in. You'll not now have to be a manager that's then enforcing the systems because you've fostered buy-in because it's a communal effort. It's the same thing with rules and policies. I took a very democratic approach to creating rules and frameworks. They were voted upon and everybody had a say about it in the candidate and client rules. This now took me away from having to police. I don't like policing. It's not fun. I like to have fun, and, and policing is not fun. So I created a buy-in culture where everybody has a say. I mean, if there's a process improvement, not only do we then take that into account, but we make it very public in our team. In a team meeting, we'll say, hey, you know what, Sam, that's a great idea, let's go ahead and implement it right away. This does a few things. It shows them that we care, it shows them that we'll show that positivity in front of the whole group, in front of their peers, and also they see the implementation straight away. This was always my dream. You know, I'll tell you a little side note here. Before working for Dell Computers, uh, this was when I was 22 to 25. From the age of 19 to 22, I worked at Bell. Bell is a huge tech telecommunications conglomerate here in Canada, and I worked for their satellite division, right? Bell ExpressView. I was a technical support agent. And I remember one day I went to my manager and I said, listen, I have an idea on how we can get our call volume dropped because this is a massive call center. There was like 500 people in this room. The calls were just flooding, right? It was, it was nuts. And I gave him an idea. I said, you know, I have this wonderful idea and I think that it could get our call volume down. And he said to me, you know what, Greg, that's a great idea. Why don't you go to your desk, write it down, and then go file it in the blue bin? Meaning the recycling bin.

Oh, what douchebag.

It's not his fault. It's because in large conglomerates— and I, at the time, I took it personally, which is why I eventually left Bell, went to Dell. But, you know, I was young. I didn't, I didn't know the principle of not taking things personally. But now what I recognize now is that systematic improvement was not embedded in the culture. It was too hierarchical. In a large corporation like that, what you end up having is for an idea to actually take flight and be implemented, it has to go through like 15 different levels of approvals and command structure. It's just it's not flat. It's, it's, it's like a pyramid, right? So it's like, it's too hard, which is why he said he didn't mean it like that's not a good idea. I think what he meant was that's a brilliant idea. Too bad that we can't implement it. Okay.

Yeah, I get you.

So I guess from that experience, I learned that the flatter the organization, the better. And I think, you know, big tech companies like Google and Apple have tried to maintain this through and through, right? Where, where a great idea can take flight no matter where it comes from. I've had great ideas from my, you know, 12-year-old son, my 14-year-old daughter that I've run with and taken flight, right? Ideas can come from anywhere. It's, it's just gotta be the execution and how it's done. So again, use your team to help map out these processes. We use Notion. I mean, there are many different tools like it. Where you can get different users that can all add to the complement, right? And when somebody adds something to it, you know, it has to be, of course, discussed so that it's accurate and that it works and then make it their job to educate it to the team. And then you got to continuously educate, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. Now, why are we repeating as leaders? I'll touch on that. And I do this a lot, you know, when it comes to books, when it comes to training. As leaders, we often think, uh-oh, I'm going to sound like a broken record. Uh-oh, my team is going to think poorly of me because I'm constantly repeating myself. That's not the case. Have you ever read a book that you've already read in the past? I'm sure this has happened to you guys, right? Where you've reread a book.

Yeah, yeah. Got one in mind right now. Yeah, I read it like 5 times actually, or 4 times. What is it? Sam Disaccuracy? It's Can't Hurt Me, David Goggins. Oh, David Goggins. Yeah, I've read that one, like, I've listened to that one like 2 or 3 times. Yeah, yeah, it's a good one.

Perfect example. So you've read Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins. Every single time you've reread that book, you were at a different place in your life, weren't you?

Yeah, I kind of, I guess, yeah, I guess I was in a different place. I went back to it for similar reasons though, for like ultimate discipline. And a shift in perspective of pain, if that makes sense.

And what it really does. Yeah. And so the next time you reread it, you had gone through other pains. And so now you have a different context by which to take that knowledge once again.

Yes.

And rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat. So it's not the fact that we are relearning the same things over again. No, it's that we are in effect a new person. We've evolved. You're at a different point today than you were a year ago or two. So if you reread that book yet again, you would capture in a completely different light. And so this is happening within your teams as well. When you rinse and repeat, you may think that you're a broken record, but you're not. In fact, what's happening is you are refining and helping people perfect things because they themselves are at a different point. Let's just say You know, I'll leave this quick example. Covering the counteroffer. Well, you may have heard it 20 times, but until it happens to you, you haven't felt that sting, have you? Of somebody accepting a counteroffer. So now when you look at it and it's talked about in the process, you have a whole new context by which to appreciate that knowledge. Right? That's the beauty of process development and continuous education on process. You can automate this, but I like to do this live to air. I think it's a better thing to do. The team appreciates it. They like your time. They want your time, you know, just like your kids want your time, you know, everybody wants your time and you have to give them your time in abundance at the right time, of course.

Greg, thank you so much for everything today. This has honestly been just like such a pleasurable, enjoyable experience listening to you, not just from what you're saying, but how you're saying it, the examples you give. You're a very talented Speaker, I know you do public speaking as well, Greg, but I just want to say thank you so much for coming on today. It's been an absolute pleasure. And I, if you're willing, I would absolutely love to have you on again, Greg, because I feel like you probably have a ton of knowledge to share in other areas that we can go deeper into. But thank you so much, my friend.

Thank you. And it's, it's a pleasure, and I appreciate you both. Um, you know, as I mentioned, I'm, I'm writing the book Recruitment Principles. Uh, it'll be out soon. So if you're watching and you like what I've said here today, please go ahead and follow me on LinkedIn. Uh, you can follow me on X as well. My social media team will be helping me with all of that. But, um, you know, follow me because there's, there's going to be quite a bit to come. This is the start of a beautiful journey. I'm, I'm leveling up myself, and, and I would love to be back on your show to tell you where I'm at at that point.

Brilliant. I'll put a, a link to your LinkedIn profile at the bottom of the YouTube and Spotify episode. So if anyone wants to connect and follow Greg, just go to the bottom of this video and you will see his page. But thank you, Greg. Really appreciate your time.

Thank you both. Have a lovely day.

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