This Recruiter closed 175K in one month using LinkedIn (Here's how she did it)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Zoe Upson. Zoe has quite a crazy story. Before becoming a recruiter, she used to be a trader in the commodities market, and it was very normal for her to get up at 5 AM each morning and not finish work until 2, 3 AM the next day. It was there that she learned the true essence of building relationships and hard graft. Now she's a top biller recruiting in the shipping and commodities market. She's just made the move to Dubai, and in August she closed $175K worth of business just using LinkedIn. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about Zoe's insane experience working as a trader, what it's really like moving to Dubai and the things to watch out for, and Zoe's going to be telling us how she uses LinkedIn to attract more clients. Guys, we absolutely love this episode. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did. And as usual, grab a cuppa, or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. Let's get into it, shall we? Hey Zoe, how are you?

I'm very well, thank you. How are you doing, guys?

Very, very good.

Yeah, we do not have enough women on this podcast, so I'm so happy that you are here today. Not just because you're a woman, obviously, because you are amazing at what you do and you've made a lot of money and just done some amazing things. So thank you for coming on today and sharing your wisdom. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I like the podcast a lot.

Oh, thank you. That means a lot. So we always start the pod with this question. What's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software? What would you say?

That's a mindset, but LinkedIn is my, is my baby.

We're going to get into speaking about LinkedIn, but why would you say LinkedIn is your biggest tool? Like, you could have chosen anything. Why LinkedIn?

Just because we get so much business from it. Um, so reputation is obviously— so word of mouth we get, and I'm from the industry, um, so obviously network. But we get so much inbound business from LinkedIn. Um, it's free marketing. Um, so it's zero— I mean, you pay for your, you know, subscription with a Premier account, um, and your recruiter. Um, but if you take away the recruiter side, just marketing alone, it's, it's, it's free. It's a very, very low cost. Um, and for that and the revenue it generates, like, I, I, I can't believe there are not more people using it in the way I'm using it. And that always takes my head.

Yeah, I was reading a book, I think the same thing, like, it's unbelievable how few recruiters are taking advantage of it. Sorry, Sam, what are you gonna say?

No, I was just gonna say, because on that, on that kind of free advertising thing. I was reading a book about, uh, the old school direct response that people used to do where they used to email letters or like email, uh, lumpy mail to people's houses, and they would have to, you know, spend money and time. It could take days just to get a response, and maybe they wouldn't get a response. And now people have like LinkedIn at their fingertips that they can post anytime they want to access thousands of people, and these direct response marketers would look at that and be like, you're sitting on a goldmine and a lot of people just don't use it, which is insane when you think about it that way.

Yeah, it's absolutely insane. You don't need to leave your house, you don't have to spend any money. And like, there's a lot of, you know, the younger generation, which I'm a big fan of, Gen Z coming through, and they're setting up these social media marketing businesses which we now are bringing into our business. But it's just like, I'm like, hold on, just because you didn't want to educate yourself you're paying, which is fortunes, I think, for what it is, just because you haven't taken that time to learn or incorporate into your general business model or your day-to-day practice. It's a day-to-day practice for us in our business. So yes, we're small, but everybody has to get on top of using LinkedIn. It's not to find, you know, if they're looking for candidates or is to use it in a personal branding sense.

Yeah, definitely wholeheartedly agree with that. Um, we're going to get into LinkedIn because that's a huge part of your business, as you've just said, and we'll get into some figures as well. But what I would love to speak about is you literally just moved to Dubai like 3 days ago, was it, Zoe? Was it 3 days ago?

A week today.

Yeah, which is insane. I have— I've got like 2 clients that have moved to Dubai in the last like, uh, 6 months, so people are flocking there. And I guess I just wanted to start with that conversation just because I'm interested personally. And I know it's probably at the, uh, at the forefront of a lot of people's minds, just moving elsewhere and potentially starting a life in another country. So why did you move there in the first place, which I would love to know?

Okay, so I've been traveling to Dubai for a long time. So if I flew to Singapore with my old career seeing clients, I would always stop in Dubai. Um, and then what I noticed was there are a lot of people moving to Dubai. So in like 2020, oh, you know, we'd locked down COVID, and I'm talking about generally my industry with shipping commodities. A lot of expats are treated very poorly in Singapore. Um, they were looking for somewhere else to go. Then you had a lot of Hong Kong— people in Hong Kong leave, and then very wealthy Chinese were buying up Singapore. Rent went through the roof, it was eye-watering. So people were looking for a place similar to that, which is safe, good schools, low tax. So Singapore's about 18%. You saw a lot of people from our industry going there then once, and then in lockdown, the same thing from the UK as people working from home and, oh well, we're locked in our houses, let's just— I had— I knew quite a lot of people who went out to Dubai from the UK and never left. All of a sudden there's a mass migration of my industry there. So I'm like, hold on a minute. People are relocating there, surely as a recruiter I've got an opportunity to help people with their relocation. That was sort of the initial where that sort of idea came from. And then just the more and more I looked into it, um, the more it became a no-brainer option for me, my personal circumstance. So I'm a mum, um, a single mum, um, so childcare in the UK is extremely expensive. Uh, my daughter is school age, but you know, you can get childcare here quite affordably compared to the UK. It's extremely safe. Um, you can— I don't wear my watch into London anymore, and it's not super snazzy. It's, it's a, you know, basic Rolex, right? It's not jazzy or fancy dials or blingy, but I don't wear that to London anymore. Um, it's— I would have moved 18 months ago, but my daughter's father was quite upset about us relocating, which I totally understand. So I just sort of said, well, I'll try and run the business from both locations. And I was flying out quite a lot and getting established here. But yeah, I would have moved 18 months ago, but I just had to do that the right way and with his consent and happiness, which we now have, which is great. But yeah, safety, security, my industry is here. I need When I mean we have more people are coming, they're coming. I'm getting questions from other recruiters. I'm part of the RDLC, which is headed up by Dean Kelly and Gary Goldsmith, and I'm getting questions all the time. I think there's about 300 or so members in the RDLC, and about a year ago I asked them to set up a community for people who were already in Dubai or had business in Dubai. Um, just because, you know, I needed to ask questions myself. Um, that, that little mini subgroup of that community is now growing. Um, people looking to get themselves out here, set their business up here, and get their families out.

Awesome. So happy that you made the move. And whenever I hear about people moving, it inspires me to do it as well. And I'm 100% gonna live in another country in the next, like, 2 to 5 years, I definitely want to do that. And Dubai is, is definitely on the list. Um, for people that want to— and I know we're speaking a lot about Dubai, we're going to move on to recruitment, audience listeners, don't worry. But like, for the people, because I'm guessing it's not all roses, for people that do want to move to Dubai, is there anything they need to be aware of before they move that is like something you just need to be aware of?

Um, just to be really So if you are 100% of the business owner, shareholder, etc., of your company, it's smoother. The processes have got easier now. I think just where there's been so many people moving over, things to move out. I mean, it's just like, I reckon you can probably get set up for maybe like £10,000, between £7,000 and £10,000 sterling. So you need to get a license. Here. You can't just go and start doing whatever you're doing. You have to get a proper business set up and registered. You have to have licensing per that agreement. Um, I would say rent here is going up quite a bit, so, uh, so that is something I think you've got to consider. There is going to be that initial move. Yeah, cost, um, you know, getting an apartment If you are looking and you've got young children, you don't have like a state school option. So there are varying price points. But yeah, the schools are all fantastic, but how much you pay a year for your child will vary. So there is something for everyone. But if you've got 3 or 4 kids, that— okay, you're going to be tax-free, but how much are you going to be paying in school fees and for your villa and the lifestyle here is, is different and you play per your budget. But I think you don't want to be stuck at home all day when there's so much to do, especially if you've got young families. Like me and my daughter have the longest list of these places we want to visit and go to cafes and restaurants, which is brilliant. But again, I think that's just being— actually do a bit of homework first.

Yeah.

If anyone is watching this and has questions, I am quite busy at the moment, but I will come and help people. But in terms of like what it is for, you know, to rent a villa, you're probably looking on the lower side, maybe like £40,000 a year sterling. School education is anywhere between, I would say, £8,000 to £30,000 a year per child.

Cool.

And then food, groceries, I think it's quite similar to UK. People say it's expensive, but I'm just like, well, I don't know, I think, you UK food is expensive. And then in terms of wining, dining and whatever, I mean, that's per your budget. Like some restaurants you're looking at, you know, £500 just to sit down. But, you know, it's not going to be super like— but then again, it's just like, it's like me saying to you, would you go and eat in Mayfair every— yeah, you probably go, well, no. And I'm like, well, you kind of—

it's the same thing.

It's a similar thing, right? You're gonna go to make those— that standard of restaurant every single week. Well, no, you're not. But I think people get pulled over by that glamour here, which is, you know, there is a lot of amazing restaurants.

Cool.

Um, yeah, just do your, do your homework first. I think work out your costs. And if you've got a thing— if you own your business by yourself, it's smoother, um, in terms of setup and banking. But yeah, I think it's, it's pretty easy now, I would say.

Wicked. Thank you for that. That's a really Good little, uh, in— a little nugget for people that are interested, especially myself as well. I'm actually definitely thinking about it.

Cool.

So let's get into your story, Zoe, because I find your story fascinating. You are not the traditional recruiter in the sense that you actually started your, uh, sales career, I should say, in the broker— in the broker world. And I just read a post, you said some nights you woke up at 5:00 AM from Essex and finished at 2:00 AM.

Yeah, or later.

Or later. So I basically want to know, what was that period of your life like? Can you paint a picture for people that don't know anything about that world and what you went through and the difficulty, the lessons, that kind of stuff?

Yeah, so, um, everyone's seen Wolf of Wall Street, one of my favorite films of all time.

Boy, I got into recruitment like 9 years ago.

And he talks about when he walks on the floor and everyone's share— like swearing and making noise. When the market's busy is like that.

So it is actually like Wall Street where you work.

Well, it's legal now. There's really good clients.

Similar vibe and environment, I'm guessing.

Very similar vibe and environment. More technology now and sophisticated a little bit. And it has become more politically correct environment. Some of the ways I was spoken to as a junior broker, if that happened now, it'd probably get flagged up with HR. But yeah, it was— is like, yeah, you have to build relationships with people because what you want is them to do business with you as to another broker. And the way you do that is by entertaining them.

Interesting.

So if your client calls you up and says, hey, I'm in town, let's go out tonight, you go out tonight and you go out with them until they want to go home.

Wow.

You never leave when you're— when you have your relationships established and you're more senior and that dynamic does change a little bit. But while you're building and, and you're trying to make your way, you just need those accounts because if you're not billing enough money, you just get fired. It's very ruthless. And again, it's probably got a bit more gentle now, but like when I got told I had 3 weeks to learn this industry or I'm out, 3 weeks. 3 weeks. Yeah. They're like, you've got 3 and no course, no training, just sit on that desk. You pick this up and it's a lot of numbers and you're working out spreads and you're understanding how the pricing works and how to speak to the clients. And how I got my way through was after a few weeks, I just went around to the other brokers and I said, is there any accounts that you have where you just like are not doing any business with them and they're just dead because they wouldn't like have a hold on them or have the relationship in place. So I got a few like that and then built really good relationships. Then they start doing business.

Yeah.

And then I built up from that. But yeah, so you would sometimes go out till, I don't know, 4 in the morning. Sometimes I'd be like, taxi home, get an hour's sleep, and then I'll be back on the train. And the other thing was, is that they had this saying, if you're out with the boys, you're in with the boys. So if you went out on a night out, it didn't matter what state you were in the next day. If you were like being sick every 5 minutes and someone had to like cover your desk because we've got these like lines, you shout prices down. Yeah, you were like instant messaging, like screens and numbers and stuff. So you'll constantly have to talk in there. So your colleague will always cover you you're in. It is like a thing. And then in the derivatives market, you never left a desk because a price could just move like that. So I used to run to the toilet and back. I never took a lunch break ever. You know, some people go, oh, you might go out and grab a sandwich or something to eat, but you always brought that to your desk. I was never— the only times I was ever off work, if I was in a hospital condition. Other than that, I came.

Oh my God. That's insane.

That sounds absolutely insane.

I feel like I need to work harder listening to that, honestly. I feel like I take a half an hour lunch, I'm like, bloody hell, need to get a sandwich back at my desk.

That sounds like seriously intense, um, Zoe. So what, what was the thing that was motivating you? What were you like? What was keeping you going during those like really difficult times?

I was a money-hungry little— I was like, um, I think that for me, I was just like, I always grew up like quite determined and ambitious. And I was like, I don't care what way I need to go to get to that point, I'm gonna go by any means, shape, or form. And I will literally— like, if you're gonna pay me a lot of money to clean a toilet, I'll go clean a toilet. Like, I, I was very— I have changed now, I've grown up. But before, I was— it was just chasing money. And like, uh, and when you're in that environment, it's very addictive and it's very what you want to do well, and there's a lot of pressure. Um, and I was the only girl on the floor.

What was that like amongst how many people? Um, so is that like 20 people?

So I started from Dry FFA, so ours is maybe 20, yeah, about 20 to 30-ish. Wow. I would say, um, but then like the whole company was 80. I was the only female broker.

Wow. Wow. What was that like? That must have been difficult or strange.

I have older brothers, so I kind of liked it. And I kind of always found boys were just a bit— like, they're annoyed at you. They would shout at you quite graphically. Like, I've had 6-foot South African, like, screaming. I've been screaming back in his face. But once that's done, there's no, like, grudge or bitter or no one's and I used to get on well with that. So they were kind of like big brothers, really. My first assistant, they were, they, they were so good. They really guided me. They were like, look, a lot of clients, because you're a female, may try and come on to you and entice you with business in return. Never, ever do that. Never fall for that trap. Never ruin your reputation. Always hold yourself as a broker, not because you're a girl or anything like that. And they really put their arm around me and made me be very professional, which I'm not saying I would have gone the other way, but when you're 22 years old, you're thrown into this big world. There's a lot of pressure. I can see how maybe some girls might fall down that avenue.

Yeah.

So I never did, luckily, because I had such great boys. And then my levels of like banter and stuff like that, I mean, sometimes it would be If I told you some of the stories, you probably— people listening would be like, oh my God, that's horrific. How can you say that to her? But for me, it was like they never did anything to harm me. It was always just like just banter. So we used to have— when the market wasn't busy, it was a great laugh. Like you were 12 hours, then juniors would come in, you set them food challenges. Like it was like a big boys club, but it was fun. It was really, really fun. That's cool. And then when you get— yeah, go on.

Sorry, what were you gonna say?

No, I was just saying, then when you get a bit more senior and then you have— like, I moved desks a couple times, then you get some that kind of like were a bit threatened by you. You'd often find this like, oh well, BD is a bit easier for us because it's just something different. It's not like necessarily a goal, but they speak to the same person day in, day out. And then you've got some like young bubbly Essex girl like it's just different for them to talk to. So someone like BD would be quite easy and natural for me, and that would create a bit of envy.

Interesting.

Um, so yeah, there was a little bit of that, which a lot of girls in the industry kind of get a bit sick of because it's like, look, we're just here same as you. Like, you know, it doesn't have to be like that, but sometimes it can be. But it is what it is.

And I know that, uh, you run a women's group as well, which we're going to speak about at the end or towards the end of the call. But that's just something to take note of, and I think it stemmed from some of your experiences in the industry that you've started this, this women's group. So, um, we'll definitely speak more about that, but I just want to, um, kind of throw that out there. Um, what were some of the biggest lessons that you learned as a broker that you kind of bring forward with you in your recruitment career? Is there any standout lessons?

Absolutely. Um, So we always had to be on our phones. So like, oh my God, I went to the toilet with my phone. Like, I never put my work phone down and my clients like everything yesterday. So like, you can't— so I'm not slow. I think my pace is quite fast and my response rate, like I am always on WhatsApp, like Unless I'm traveling and then I'll have an instant responder on. If someone messages me, I respond, I would say, within minutes unless I'm— it's a rare occasion I don't. If my clients need to get hold of me, I'm available like 24/7. Relationship building. I will fact on quality, not quantity. And I say you build the relationship and, and the work comes. So that is how I would say that where I had to build relationships in broking and really good ones where like people I did business with 10, 15 years ago, whatever, they're still my friends today. I don't do any business with them, but I still have relationships with them. So you want to make them almost like family. And that's a really strong approach I have is that people I do business with, I would say like Yeah, we're— so I'll have a relationship better with any of them than any of their other recruiters. And often they'll start with others and then they form a bond with me and then the others go. So definitely relationship, uh, based. And then my work ethic is, I think, quite strong. But I'm not saying I'm— I think a lot of people in recruitment are really hard workers actually, and like grafters and want to make money and like are really successful. So I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else, it's something that I brought along was a really strong work ethic, I think.

Yeah, interesting. Um, just really interested about relationships. Like, most recruiters do say relationships, and I think— and it's— I, I completely understand why. I think everyone has a different way of building relationships. Do you have a particular way in which you go about building relationships, Zoe, that's more successful, that allows you to kind of ingrain yourself with your customers in a better way?

Yeah, so I think a big thing for me is like integrity and trust. I'm very honest, even like I'll never like lie to a client or say something just to like woo or win them or whatever. Like if I think their hiring model is really not great and that's why they're not getting talent, like I'll tell you. But I think that creates some sort of like integrity and trust. I'm very face-to-face. So a lot of my clients I'll see once a week.

Face to face, you'll see them?

Yeah. Or try to. I will speak to them every week and often as well. So even if it's like springing an idea or how things are going, how someone's getting on, and more like I try and stay away from email, phone calls and WhatsApps.

Cool.

And I don't know what people do actually, but I, you know, I will pick up the phone a lot. Any time I do a deal with someone, religiously, without fail, I will celebrate with them. It's later on. Like, I always try and make sure, look, let's celebrate the person you've hired. Like, we've brought them in.

That's interesting.

Cool. What would you do to celebrate? Just go out for dinner or something, or would it be a bottle of bubbly or—

No, no, I'll actually go afterwards. So I placed one actually out here in Dubai He started this week, so my client was in town. He's got business here, but he also lives in another location, so he splits his time between two. And actually he offered to do lunch today and I said, I'm really sorry, we've had— I've got a podcast, I can't move it.

Oh no, the reason you're not going.

Thank you. We feel privileged.

You know, I'm surprised. So we go for breakfast tomorrow.

Lovely.

That's really, really interesting. So it's like Sounds like your experience from your broker, from being a broker, of calling people, building relationships, wining and dining people, you, you brought that into recruitment with constantly keeping in touch and making people feel special, it sounds like.

Yeah, yeah. Even if, and even if I'm not actively doing business with someone at the time and they're like, I'm in town, or I'm doing something, I'll, I'll see them. Like, if I can catch someone for face to face even if it's a quick coffee or a lunch. Like for me, spending, you know, let's say it was a £200 lunch as to sending a bottle of wine, I get so much more from that conversation, learning more about their business. The more I know about their business and them, the better ideas I can have for them. So, you know, thought about doing this, have you not thought about saying that? Why don't you come join our women's group? Whereas if I send them a bottle of wine to say thanks for the first deal, well, that's nice, it's a really nice gesture, but what— like, the, the bond's so much more valuable.

Do you, do you feel like more connected after a face-to-face meeting with, say, a new client? Like, is it a tangible thing that you can feel quite quickly, or is it— does it take more time?

Um, it depends on the person, but I would say once I've gone out with someone for a face-to-face and it's in a social setting. So like an office, I won't count, but like let's say for instance I've gone out for dinner with someone, I would say we're set for life.

Wow, interesting.

I love that. But I'm super loyal like that. And I also, I'm really loyal. So if I am working with a couple of people in a particular— because commodities spreads across a few markets.

Yeah.

Let's say for instance I have someone that does metals trading and then another company wants to do me to do metals trading and then another one. I'll go, no, I'm full on that. Relationship. If I serve them, I'm, I'm cool, which other people may think I'm mad because it's like turning away business, but I'd rather have lifetime loyalty than quick fixes and, you know, quick deals done. So I'm a much longer game than quick fix, I would say.

Yeah, I love that.

Absolutely love that. Um, I would love to move into the kind of BD— I say BD, yeah, it is BD marketing side of things. Um, what was amazing about the message you sent me and just learning a bit more about how you generate business at the moment, as you said, you don't make calls, you've never sent an outbound message, all your business comes from LinkedIn. And that would, um, that would make sense that your biggest tool, you know, is LinkedIn. Um, you build $175K in August, all of that was through LinkedIn if I'm not mistaken.

Um, Yeah, July and then August, we're about 100. So that was July, 175. And then this month we're looking to close about 100, I think.

Wicked. Again, all from LinkedIn.

LinkedIn and LinkedIn and like connection.

But yes, cool.

All our new business now, I would say now 70, 80, unless someone's referred us, which we do get a lot of referral, I would say a mass majority all starts off on LinkedIn. Cool.

So for other, for other recruiters looking in, they, they're going to be thinking, how the hell does Zoe do that? Because we've had, yeah, 40 recruiters on this podcast. I don't think anyone has— everyone has a, a BD, an outbound process of some description, whether it be cold calling, email, LinkedIn messages, whatever it is. It's very rare to find a recruiter that doesn't. How, how do you— how are you managing to get such a high return on LinkedIn and, and only rely on LinkedIn for new business?

Yeah. So we do send some outbound messages, but it's never like what you think. So if I see someone's been looking at my profile on a few occasions, great to connect, but never like go in with a—

yeah, like a pitch, a warm message.

Yeah, it's warm. It's like, okay, so first things first, I would say, is that People need to stop. We've actually— I don't want to throw this in here— we've actually built a course, but it's for people in shipping and commodities, how to utilize LinkedIn, because our industry is so like dinosaur. And I'm like, why are brokers and traders and like the BD side of our world not using this? Yeah, particularly for their younger people, like so their juniors are training. Like a lot of people have established relationships since the world works fine the way it is, but the new generation is coming through, they're sitting on the desk, they could be busy doing you know, and they're really strong on tech and stuff. So that's the reason why we built that. But okay, so the reason people aren't using LinkedIn properly, they use it as a sales tool to get leads in business. It's not a networking tool. So imagine every time you go on to LinkedIn, you're going to a business event face to face. Now, if I went up to someone at a business event, didn't make an introduction, and was just like, Hey, how— like, do you want to do some— do you want to hire? We can hire for you. They'd be like, who the hell are you and why are you messaging me? Right? And you can remember in our day now, more than ever before, we live in an age of distrust. We don't know who's on the other side of a chat, if it's an AI bot, who we're speaking to. Is it an EA sat out in, you know, wherever part of the world? If the images that we're sharing are genuine, if they're true. It's a big age of distrust, right? And more than ever before, we're behind the screen than we are face to face. So I always say to people, like, if you use LinkedIn as a forum for people to get to know you, right, it's going to allow you to form some sort of trust before you even speak to them, right? So I always say you've got to do a lot of massaging on LinkedIn first, and that's engaging, right? So it could be like commenting, creating your LinkedIn as well to actually be organic and genuine, right? Because you want to clear— if you're following people and they're all, I don't know, other recruiters, but they're not anyone in construction, you need to shift that to who are the guys in construction or pharmaceuticals and or the particular niche that I want to be developed in, your whole LinkedIn world should be around that. I would say at least 70-80%. So like, stop engaging with some ladies posting a kid of her first day of school. It's nothing to do with what you're doing, right? Because what you're trying to do is you're trying to build this network that's genuine, that's organic, that, that is, is coming from a place of integrity. Like, people look at my LinkedIn, they would be able to tell you, oh, so she's a single mom, she's originally from Essex, she's got a daughter called Beatrice. So all of a sudden I'm not just this person that's coming in hard selling you. I'm a real person who's got a story and I'm sharing my story. I share my life. You know, sometimes I did a post once that was about like and this is what a working mum looks like. And my daughter sat on my lap and she's got a reading book and I was still working. So it's just creating almost that level of trust, I think, first of all. And I don't think people realize how powerful personal branding is. I've spoken to Gary about it before because he's like, oh, it's unusual. Like, you do well for it, but it's not like the classic way. And he was like, you know, it's different because, you know, maybe like if you're a girl and something like that. I think, though, that's not the case. I think you can do podcasts which again show you who you are, how you sound, how you talk. We're talking about my story. You know, Sam, you were saying, I'm thinking about moving across to Dubai. I now know that information about you that creates some interest or familiarity to reach out. Oh, actually, I'm thinking about moving to Dubai. Like, from this, maybe I'll probably get a message from another recruiter that says, hey, I'm thinking about getting out to Dubai, or I'm thinking about using LinkedIn more. And again, it's just by being yourself, being genuine, um, and then it's making sure you're engaging a lot. So the reason why LinkedIn, I feel, is so powerful is that every time you like, you comment, that pops up somewhere for someone, right? So every time, I don't know, I'm there engaging, you know, commenting with someone, if they've had a morning meeting and they've said, oh right, okay, well blah blah left, so we need to replace whoever, and, uh, the head of the desk has gone, oh yeah, because they've thought of me because I've commented, I've just popped up in their face. I haven't done a sales call, haven't reached out to them, but they've been bored at work or, you know, we're all guilty of scrolling and they're just scrolling through LinkedIn and it's, you know, and it's like, oh, Zoe, I pop up and they're like— and that's why sometimes I think I get that first call because they haven't had to go on to Google, they haven't had to look out, they haven't got, oh, who was that recruiter again we used 2 years ago for whoever? And I think that's where the power is in it. I did a post yesterday. It's really simple. It's a picture of me. I've got the background of Dubai and I just said, you know, I want to share something. I've moved to Dubai. Beatrice is settled into like a fantastic school. What does this mean for business? Because I was thinking, oh my God, what are my London clients going to be thinking? Oh, she's left. So where does that leave us? No, you know, we want to develop Singapore because it's closer. We think Dubai is growing. We're going to be frequently visiting London, and we're even going to try and cover our US clients and have some late nights. Mentioned the women's group on there that we're going to do an event out here for women to connect in our sector. It went mental. I could literally fill my month with meetings. For the rest of like an entire month off the bat. And I'll happily show you if you want.

I believe—

I believe you don't worry.

Yeah, but I think potential business opportunities as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, it's so for me, if say for instance, like someone isn't an obvious lead today, well, you never like— so sometimes I get people contacting me and they'll say, oh, like I'm in Dubai, I've just moved here now. She's not going to be necessarily obvious for me to place her today, right? If I meet her for a coffee, that's half an hour of my day. I've then got a friend in the area. Who's she going to recommend if someone says, oh, I want to go for a job? So I'm very like— so from the off the back of that, I think we had maybe 20 to 30 women reach out, say, here in Dubai, can we please get involved? What's your mailing? We don't even have a mailing list for the women's group. What's the mailing list for the women's group? Because we want to, you know, share around our office because they're in my industry. They're a shipbroker who we've never done any business with. So again, it's a different way to do things, but it creates that. It reaches out from that one post. It got 100,000 impressions, I think, or close to there. but a massive number was unique views. So I think 50-something thousand, which I was gonna say, I've got the stats up on my screen, but 50-something thousand were unique visits. So not from my network, not from my industry. 58, I think it was 58,000. 58,000. You're not talking about numbers of, oh, 20 new people saw me, which would be amazing, right? Because you only need one to become something new. But 58,000. Yeah, it's insane.

I love it. And how long did that post take to write? Was it like 15 minutes?

Yeah.

I mean, the level of ROI and leverage with that, once you get it right and you understand the formula, is just insane. It's absolutely insane.

Can I, can I jump in and just ask something as well? That's all right. There's me and Sam trying to spot— so there's, there's certain things I think like long-term massaging, which is hard to quantify and or find trends. But me and Sam always try and find like these trigger points which accelerate conversations and/or initiate conversations. So for example, certain sales posts for me and Sam will definitely get more inbound. Yeah, yeah, an email and a LinkedIn message, that combination will get a conversation started. Have you found certain things with your either engagement or post get, you know, more conversations or initiate conversations?

Yes. Um, so it's often like it's around bigger, bigger news. Um, so like something that's quite like a big, you know, uh, top 29 women in the industry, super proud, blah blah blah. Or I've moved to Dubai, or I've set one— I did, I set up in Dubai, that was huge. I just put about me, I'd set up in Dubai, there's a picture of me sat in Sushi Summer, I think, here with, you know, the palm in the background, whatever. Yeah, yeah, good images. So now look, I— people could maybe say, oh yeah, but there's some types of— oh yeah, but it's a girl. I'm like, no, sorry, a good clear image, right? It's just, you know, something that's— because as well, it's someone's face, it's quite likable, right? There's someone's there smiling, or someone's, you know, you've— I think when there's like some, some sort of news or achievement, or if I speak some about stuff that resonates quite strongly with people, um, which maybe is like a teetering on the line or taboo subject or things that people don't really like to talk about or wouldn't normally, um, if they're working for someone else, be able to speak on. They typically go quite, quite big. Um, so yeah, I think that is one thing that, yeah, which you can't do all the time. I don't have these like mega posts and then sometimes I'll do a really good picture and I'll do like top tips or advice or like what I've learned from X, Y, Z, they do well.

Yeah.

Yeah. There are clear things that definitely do better than others. And I know like on YouTube, if you have a lot of like script across the front of your— let's say the— I don't know what you actually term it, is that the point where people can just see the original image of before they click on it? It's a lot of text. Thumbnail. Thank you. But I find that thumbnails on certain platforms, the louder and more pictures and stuff they are, I find on LinkedIn they do the worst. If I put my logo on something and I don't put my logo on something, the ones I don't put my logo on do better. Yeah, so interesting.

The more natural, basically.

I just think genuinely Definitely the more I think, because LinkedIn's so corporate. Um, I know it's, you know, I think sometimes when it's just quite genuine and it's not push through sell, that warms to people a lot more.

Yeah, that's so— I've definitely got some great— so good images, news, achievements, milestones, controversial topics, it sounds like, which is great. Tips and advice. So that's awesome on the content side of things. What about the engagement side of things? So what about the— because you said you mentioned you kind of start these natural conversations. Is Is most of your business kind of pure inbound or does some of it come from, like, you know, starting those conversations as well?

Yeah. So polls— I don't underestimate polls. Actually, Gary Goldsmith, because I talk about this and he says, hey, I gave you that idea, but he actually did give me this idea. So polls, you might go, what are the 4 issues that we forecast for Traders in 2025, and it could be economic or geopolitical issues or, you know, whatever the answers could be. Yeah, or answers, people start interacting with that. Now on LinkedIn, you get some people that just like, I call them doom scrollers or like the lurkers. They're the ones like hiding in the bushes. They don't want to get involved or they just literally want to think. They get involved. They're the ones. That's where we see those shy ones actually contribute. My friend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's also fantastic marketing business tool. So, you know, for example, we recently have done some recruitment days. We run a whole recruitment day. We do a whole big process like to the lead up for it. We put them through all these rounds of testing and we have them on a day and there's like 10 of them. We put them again all through these rounds and then I have to do a social after. It's really intense. But we left from maybe like 300 to 500 candidates down to 10 superstars. And sometimes the company only has like space for 2. So we're left with, you know, 8 good candidates who we would love to get a job. So when we know this is happening in the run-up, we maybe talk about what do you want from, you know, a junior? Is it work ethic? Is it education? Is it sporting background? Now they might click sporting background, work ethic, that leads us to have a conversation with them. So thanks so much for responding to my poll, um, these were the results. Oh, by the way, and it could lead into that conversation, or, you know, where would you like to live in the world? What city would you live in? Well, Dubai. So it's good conversation. Oh, but I'm moving to Dubai myself. I see any, you know, by seeing the opportunities there, would you be interested? Yeah, brilliant. And then sometimes people come to me off the back of that and say, oh, that's like a really interesting thing, or I'd like to see the stats of it. But typically that's our most outbound reach, I would say.

And just to— sorry, Zoe, just to add context to what you're saying, and this is why this is so genius what Zoe's doing, is that on polls specifically, when people choose an option, their profile comes up, and it's one of the only features on LinkedIn where you can actually, you know, respond to the people. Because your 50,000 impressions unique, you can't see a lot of them on LinkedIn, which is annoying unless they like or comment on your post. But with polls, if they, if they interact with it, you can follow up with them, and you can make the poll really specific, as Zoe said, which makes it even more targeted with the person you're following up. So I think that's a great strategy, Zoe.

Yeah, no, it's— that one is is, is really good, particularly to sort of like open the— to break the ice, to get a conversation going, right? And people are never offended by it, right? They are engaging. Well, you can go further from there. I'd like to, you know, form, uh, you know, a webinar, a roundtable. Let's get talking about our subject. Let's create a WhatsApp group. Like, like, there's no end with what you can do with this platform, in my opinion, and what it can lead to. Is just finding out your, your niche and what you talk about. That's another thing as well, like have some clear subject points. I think like you guys are very focused, right? You've got a podcast talking to top billers so you can share with other recruiters what other people are doing that's different, right? And maybe we can learn something from it and maybe not, but it's, it's interesting and, um, you know, content for other recruiters. That's your thing, that's your niche, that's what you speak about day in, day out. So I say people like find what actually— and be genuine about it. Like, I love doing my women's stuff. I've always been very like, particularly last year and a half, pro Dubai. So lots of Dubai talk and they're probably like the main sort of things that I will discuss. I'll talk about my industry, shipping and commodities. But, you know, so people start kind of— my network's built up quite a bit around, you know, shipping, commodities. Women in, you know, diversity within that sector, and then quite strong in Dubai. So I get known for being, oh, well, you— well, Zoe covers Dubai in— oh well, but really it's only— I, at the time, I wasn't even there. It's just that I was talking about it quite a lot. So whatever, you know, then you— and then within LinkedIn, you become sort of a market leader, an expert, and then people reach out to you and say, hey, can we get your opinion on XYZ. Also, would you like to come onto the podcast and talk about how to get into shipbroking or whatever, right? So it opens up so many more doors if you find the, the subject that you want to be quite strong on.

Um, love that.

Can I, can I— sorry, Sam, I'm going to jump in for one last question.

So I just—

the pose was really interesting, and the example that you gave though, it sounded like that was more candidate-focused? Have you found the particular angles that reel clients in more so than others for polls in terms of what gets them interested and/or engaged?

Yeah, I think actually, to be fair, it does end up being a bit more candidate-led because we'll have the job or whatever, or the, the thing that we're sort of handling, and then that way. But yeah, you could, you can, you, you could probably do Oh, I don't know. I'm just trying to think now of some examples of which you could put out, but you could definitely work it that way, right?

But I'm guessing your market's more candidate-led in Brighton and Hove, which is why you're focusing on candidate. Is that, is that right? Or what's your feeling? Or you've just been more successful for candidates?

It's been— yeah, it kind of is a more candidate-led market, but in the way in which we work, we're always client-focused, and then we go headhunt.

Yeah, what I got from— sorry to interrupt, so what I got from what you said is that you're actually asking the decision maker what they're looking for in a candidate, and so you will actually get decision makers voting on that. So even though it's a candidate subject—

I've got it, sorry, I misunderstood.

That makes sense. That's what I got from it anyway. I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong. So I say it was actually aimed at clients, but it's like—

yeah, yeah, so we knew we had the talent and then we wanted to say to them like, oh, are you interested? What do you look for?

I got it, got it.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Yeah.

Yeah.

And then sometimes we'll like ask people like, oh, I think Benny works for me, did one. So like, what's his expect— what does he prefer from his recruiter? To meet for a coffee, to speak on the phone? That's perfect, isn't it? I'll meet for a coffee. Okay. Do you want to meet for a coffee?

Yeah.

So simple.

So simple. People like respond. I think as well, you do have to have a bit of a following to get the polls going. So when I first started doing them, the responses weren't great, but now they're really good.

Yeah, awesome.

And do one a week.

Yeah, brilliant. Great advice.

Um, can't believe how quickly the time's gone. I would love just to jump in to speak about your, um, women's networking group. I think it's such a cool thing that you're doing. Can you tell me why? Because you're very busy, you've got a daughter, you're running a company, moving to Dubai, seems like you're doing a thousand— you're setting up a course, you've got like a thousand things on the go, and you've got a women's networking group. Why, why do the women's networking group? What's the passion and idea behind that?

So when I was a broker, only girl on the floor, I was like, I'd love to have— why aren't more girls in there? This is epic. I'm flying around the world, I'm going to the best restaurants, it's all like paid for by work, I'm making really good money. Like, there's not many of us. Like, there's a big gap here, um, which never used like I could never really inspire these girls to go for it. And then when I was head of a desk, I wanted to employ an all-female team. I thought it'd be great for PR marketing. I think it'd be different to have some to try. I got the go-ahead from my boss. He said, go and hire all female brokers. Then I couldn't get anyone.

Oh really?

Wow.

Yeah, like literally like no one. And then a client recommended two girls to me. They worked for Shell and they had such an intense like we met up, they're such fantastic packages and how much they were earning was like, I was like, oh, start off as a junior broker, don't do that to yourself sort of thing. But we had the best night. We just spoke about the market and what it's like being a girl and we shared stories and whatever else. Oh, we should do this again. So we did it again, but we said, oh, everyone bring another girl from the market. So then we were 6. And then same thing again. Everyone brought someone else and then suddenly it was like there was 12. And then there's these International Petroleum Week runs every February and all people in the oil market fly to London. So I did a women's breakfast, but I always chose like nice locations and not like a stuffy corporate vibe or feel. Every woman that went loved it. Like, oh, this is amazing. I want more of this. I want more of this. I was like, okay, I'll do another one next year. And then we went to do our first sponsored event. Lockdown happened and everyone was like, do webinars. And I was like, no. Like, the thing is, is about— and I'm very— you can tell I'm very face-to-face. So like, I was like, the thing is, is we need to get together and enjoy it because then that goes out on social media and people see this like women's event and one we had sponsored by Jo Malone. And it's a super glamorous event. There's canapés. Cafes. It's not like this stuffy corporate thing where you've got to sit and watch a panel and, you know, you've got lanyard, it's all about like swapping cards. It's like girls getting together, having a chat, and it's just grown and grown. And it's actually like I could probably run it as a business itself. Wow. But I don't have the time. Um, so anytime I get an opportunity to just run our event, I will get sponsorship from people in the market and we just put them together. So the last one, we collaborated with the biggest newspaper in shipping, which is Trade Winds, and that was in Greece, in Macedonia. So we often do them off the back of, you know, another major sort of event because we know a lot of people are together at that point. I think we had like over 150 people at that event. You think you started with 3, just 3 organically?

So what have What have you learned? Because, you know, you didn't set out to do this, but it happened organically. What have you learned along the way in terms of, like, your love for this, or, you know, bringing women together? Any kind of, like, lessons that you've learned from building this insane community?

Yeah, so my main thing is, like, just— I think women are, like, super powerful, but they're just so unconfident compared to boys. Like, girls won't apply for a job unless they've got everything on it. Boys will apply to jobs that they're underqualified for, but they've got the confidence. So we've really instilled a lot of confidence with the women. We've created a really, really good community. It's like a— we've also created a safe, non-bitchy— I don't know if I could say that— but anyway, a space. So it's like you can come along, you can let your hair down. It's all hugs, it's not stuffy, or it's not corporate at all. It's like girls getting together, It's not, you know, it's like very non-bitchy, non-clicky. Like, we don't care what you look like, where you're from, if you're junior, if you're senior. There's no hierarchy there. It's like me, the organizer, and then everybody is like, I organize it, but I see myself as flat with everyone else. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, so if a young girl comes along and she's not, doesn't know anyone or whatever, she's just like treated like everybody else is, like as special as the CEO or the ladies on 15 boards and is earning 500 grand a year, you know, like, you know what I mean?

That's awesome. Is there one moment that's happened so far that's kind of brought that emotion in of, of the journey so far? Is there like a one, one conversation you had with a woman or like one— I, I might be clutching at straws here, but I'm just curious if there's one thing you remember from your journey.

There's been a few things. I think like I've helped a couple of girls get like pay rises or bonuses or be in a safe space where they can and that's meant a lot to them, right? And then like there was the last event, I had two girls come up to me and it was like, oh, Zoe, like we follow you and we're so inspired. And that I was like, really? Because I don't— I'm not— I don't do it for that.

Yeah.

But when someone then kind of like blindsides you, you're like, oh my God, like, that's— oh, I don't think of me like that. But it's so nice you think of me and that actually is making an impact. And sometimes I have women pull me aside and say, like, you know, I had— I was at another event, but it wasn't my event. It was just an industry event. And this mum was like, oh, thanks so much for sharing your stories because I get so much mum guilt being a working mum. But when I see you posting that you're doing all these things and you're a mum, it makes me feel less guilty. And that meant loads to me because I was like, yeah, I totally get that. Like, it's okay to be you know, this like hard-working boss and also have a family and not feel bad about it. Because we get mum guilt. Like, it doesn't matter who you are, as a mum you'll always feel bad about something.

So where do you— where should women go if they want to, uh, you know, find out more about your community? What's, what's the best place to go to?

So yeah, so we have a private group on LinkedIn which you have to— it's invitation only because it's just a safer space if people want to share or we put sometimes share images of the events from there and we don't want to just put them out for everyone to see. We like to keep that safe space. We've also got a website which is womintogether.uk and I need to change that now. And then we've got another— recently I had to set up an actual public page because the group was growing so much and every time I wanted to tag us in something they couldn't. Now we can actually get tagged on LinkedIn. Again, we didn't have that from before, but I think we have 1,000 members now or something.

Amazing.

Cool.

I'll put the links at the bottom of the YouTube and the Spotify just in case any women want to, want to find out. But Zoe, thank you so much for joining us. We are exactly on time. These podcasts always fly by. This felt like we were only speaking for 10 minutes. That's how quickly it went. Um, but yeah, amazing to speak to you. Such a lovely person. You're doing amazing things. So thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it.

Thanks so much for having me. And can I just say one last thing?

Of course. Yeah. Go ahead.

Anyone's in recruitment that's like a girl like me and is— because I've spoken to people before and they said, oh, like, I'm billing so much, but I should set up my own. I'm like, please do. Like, don't be afraid to. If someone's in that position and they just need that push or that like encouragement to go, and even if you're a guy actually, like, but just to set up on your own and do your own thing, like, please reach out to me because I'd love to see, you know, when I go to a recruitment event or something, just a few more girls who are like leading and, you know, just willing for someone else.

Love that. So you're obviously, uh, really pushing to help other women, you know, around the world, not just in your industry but recruitment. And so I love that, really love that, and a great way to end it. So thank you so much for coming on, really appreciate it. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon.

Peace and love.