This Recruiter Earns Over $200K+ and Urges Other Recruiters To Follow Their Passion…

Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is none other than Paul Evans. Paul's journey began in the fast-paced world of oil and gas recruitment, where he soon became a prominent figure in the industry. He then packed his bags and moved to Texas, USA, in the heart of the American dream. He managed to build his network from scratch, and he propelled his career to new heights. He learned how to navigate the complexities of building a business scratch in an entirely different country, something that really demands flexibility, insight, and a keen understanding of cultural nuances. Fast forward to today, and Paul is now a force to be reckoned with in the European recruitment market, specializing in offshore wind. He's become one of the go-to headhunters in this sector, helping companies from Germany, Croatia, and Finland scout and secure the best talent on the market. In today's episode, we're going to be delving into Paul's very own tripod method, a strategy that he created himself from scratch, and we'll explore how he uses this method to place almost every single candidate that he presents in front of a client. We'll also be talking a lot more about Paul's journey to the United States, and he's going to be shedding light on the subtle intricacies of doing BD and winning clients over in that landscape. So grab a coffee or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hello, Mr. Evans. Welcome to the— is it the third episode? No, fourth. It's the fourth episode of Top Billers Toolkit.

I don't like being fourth, Sam.

Every single person has said that.

Why am I not number one? I'm only kidding, guys.

We saved the best till last, Paul. The best till last.

So you're saying that this is the last? So you're picking me?

It will be for you, Paul.

Wow. That is an honour. How are you, my friend?

How are you doing?

Yeah, I'm really good, thanks. Friday. You know, things coming to a close and hopefully a successful close. It's been a pretty busy week. So all good. All good.

Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah, everything feels better on a Friday. So I will start off the podcast with our first question, which we've asked everyone at the beginning, which is what do you consider to be your most valuable tool in your toolkit pool, whether it's a software, a piece of mindset, sorry, a mindset or a piece of software or anything in between?

Yeah, so it's, it's a good question, and I think that that depends on, on time. I think now it's probably my skill set based on what I've done, what I've achieved, different processes that I've worked through, um, different countries, different geographics. So all them things play an element based on different levels of, of recruitment, shall we say. Um, I'd certainly say in terms of my best asset is my ability to adapt to different situations and my ability to recognize a specific person. If you're dealing with somebody that's very hard and very— what's it— then I can adapt to that. If I'm dealing with somebody that's very, very big type of character, then I can adapt to that as well. So almost, almost need to be a bit like a chameleon, don't you? And wear different coats to a certain extent. So I think my personality is definitely my most valuable tool, but also my humility towards all the human beings, I think, is my best asset in terms of the job that I do on a day-to-day basis. I'm very fortunate and blessed, in my opinion, that I have the personality. I am quite eccentric at times, but also can be very professional and, you know, very concise with what I do, which has evolved, I suppose, from a career perspective and honed my skills. So I'd certainly say the experience that I've took over 20 years in recruitment, but also then 15 years from an engineering background as well, helps towards that and having the knowledge now that I do based on being in the, of working in a similar industry to what I'm working in now.

That's really interesting, Paul. So you said your biggest kind of, your biggest tool in your toolkit is being able to adapt. Where did you learn that? Was it growing up through, you know, seeing people? Was it just you learned it on your own? Like, how did you learn how to adapt?

Yeah, I don't want it to sound arrogant, but I think I've always had it. To be totally honest with you. I think I'm the type of guy that would speak to anybody that I don't know at a bar. You know, I've actually got quite a funny story to probably educate, but it's— I don't know, it's a bit out there. So it was when I was going to get my visa at the US Embassy in London, and I went to the men's room, you know, like you do, like we do. And stood next to me was Gordon Ramsay.

You never told me this story, Paul.

No, I'm sorry. Yeah, but so I looked over and thought, oh, hey, Gordon Ramsay. So I said, all right, Gordon. And he went, what are you here for? So I said, traveling to America, moving to Texas. He said, you'd love the food there. It's fantastic. And so I think that kind of proves my personality, that I'll talk to somebody even you know, in certain situations just to say hello. And that's— so I'm born with it from, from that perspective. But I suppose as my career has advanced, you get a deep understanding of how to understand somebody's dynamic and then adapt your own personality to them, because not everybody's the same. Um, some people click, some people don't. But from a professional standpoint, you've got to learn to adapt and understand the drivers and motivators for other people. So that's what I'd say to that.

I've got to tell my mum that story. She's obsessed with Gordon Ramsay, Paul, and she would love that. Even that small interaction, I've got to tell her. Where do you think in the process specifically adaptability is most valuable?

Um, I think that, that contact of, of not knowing somebody from a sales aspect, um, Ben, is, is really important. And bringing that humility if you need to, but also that, that skill set in recognizing certain challenges that potentially clients have with, from a hiring perspective, um, And I'm quite persistent. They used to call me a wasp. So I think if I get a good feeling from a client or an interaction, then obviously I'll follow up. And I'm quite persistent in wanting to get to know that person, understanding the drivers behind it. So I think from that aspect, that's what I'd say to that. I think The latter part obviously is a skill set of, of knowledge gathering, of time served, of, uh, being in specific situations and maybe probably making a mistake, but then actually going back and revisiting that, um, to know that the next time you do it, you know, you've been in that situation before. So I think experience counts for a massive amount. From, from my perspective.

You mentioned, um, persistence, Paul. Um, I just can't help but go back or delve upon that because I feel like that's one thing humans struggle with— consistency, persistence. How much has persistence played a part in, um, your billing, billing numbers? Is it like 20%, 30%, 50%? What do you think? How, how much has that played?

Um, In my earlier career, from a recruitment standpoint, probably 80% because my skill set— I suppose you could relate it to cold calling, for example. You know, I think the average person from a cold call perspective might pick up on the 9th time, and then you've got to deliver your pitch to get that person on side to a certain extent. I suppose in I suppose where I've evolved from was from blue-collar trades workers and building projects, teams of high volume. And for that, there's a separate supply chain and agreement to get on to supply contract-based workers. So you have to be persistent because you're up against a consistent number of other agents that are working at a very low margin that will beat you. And it's I suppose I was built from a recruiting standpoint of getting in front of people. So if there was a project going on, going to site, getting your business card out there, speaking to people, understanding that, um, you know, wanting to be the life and soul of the party, going out for drinks with people, you know, it's a bit of a lost art now, um, to a certain extent. So that would be an example that I'd give of that where I'd won major projects, um, with 100 people on contract, building the project team from a white-collar perspective, then blue-collar workers underneath it. So that persistence was certainly driven into me from an early recruitment career, um, and that paid massive dividends at probably 80%. As, as my career has progressed, you learn that it's probably not volume in for volume out. It's understanding the dynamics of that project, that company, the decision makers within that company. So you don't necessarily have to be as persistent making 100 calls a day.

So interesting. It always comes up to consistency and follow-up. I'm going to mention this really quickly because, Paul, we know that you're kind of into property in the property world. Me and Sam are delving into property as well. And when we went to one of these 24-hour events for one of them from a guy called Kevin, Kevin Wright, that, you know, he— one of the most important things that he said to get the best deals was follow-up, a good follow-up process. And it was so interesting because I was like, oh my God, like there's follow-up in so many areas of marketing and business. It's like one of the most important things. Yeah. So it's interesting that that has played a part in your business.

Absolutely. And I think personality as well, especially in, in that world. Um, you've kind of got to raise your profile, aren't you, and be amenable to everybody. Um, and then you've got to sift through those people, um, to see who the sharks are, who the real folks are. And it's no different from a recruitment standpoint, you know. Um, you're gonna have good and bad clients, I'd say. Um, But until you, I suppose, get under the bonnet and look at the mechanics, then you're not going to know, are you? Um, you've got to really immerse yourself in those things. That's my honest opinion.

Yeah, I'm really interested to go into a bit of your background now, um, all of how you got into recruitment, um, and also how you ended up in the States doing recruitment in Texas, which is which must have been a pretty cool experience in itself. Can you just give us a bit of background of that, please?

Yeah, for sure. So I worked in a mechanical engineering capacity and heavy lift engineering capacity from a background. So I had a business where I used to hire specific skilled people out through my own business, and that would be anything from an appointed person for a heavy lift operation for a contract lift, or that would be working on an overseas project. So I worked on a couple of overseas projects as well as offshore. I worked on an oil and gas platform within that capacity, and then I worked in Denmark on a large industrial project which was connecting to Sweden. So I think that background And I suppose through personal circumstances and my wife not wanting me to be consistently away all the time, changed into that recruitment. And I took a job on way less money with a small recruitment agency that taught me not just recruitment but commercial skills, detail orientation, understanding dynamics more so than I already did from a project perspective. At a high volume, and it put me in great, great stead. Now, I think from there I did, you know, 5 years at that company and still value those people who taught me that now. Um, but I wanted to move into a more white-collar technical background from an engineering standpoint, so I moved to an oil and gas agent based on me having knowledge of that market, um, doing purely white-collar single placements, um, for a business. And was successful, placed— I'm gonna have to think now, um, probably about 30 people within a 12-month period, um, and all single placements, contract, um. And I was asked if I would consider moving to the US with this business. I went to the US, liked it. The wife didn't like it.

What did you like about it, Paul? What was amazing about the US?

Well, it's just, you know, it's America, you know, it's just huge. There is mass amounts of opportunity, but also everything's on your doorstep. Whereas I suppose if you look at the oil and gas market from the UK, everything was London or everything was Aberdeen. Whereas Houston, Texas, the clients are there in abundance because you basically sat in an energy corridor. But also, um, it's kind of new, you know, it gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling, doesn't it? Um, you know, experience different things, different people, different cultures, etc. So I think from, from that angle, it was, it was great. Um, probably not in the right place. My wife's a teacher, Um, she had to leave her job, etc., etc. So I think we came back, but then I'd moved companies. Um, I was headhunted by another company to move across, um, in a recruitment management capacity, which I did. And that was for Middle East, Africa, um, and the UK, where I managed a team of people. And then they asked me to go out. Now, I, I'd, I'd kind of— I got the bug, you know. A US perspective. So I think from there, worked for a great guy in the UK that I'm still friends with, colleagues with now to a certain extent, and the opportunity came up to go back to Houston. So discussed it from a family perspective and decided to take the plunge and loved it for 3 years. Worked for a couple of companies there. Not gonna lie, it's quite tempestuous, shall we say, um, the oil and gas market, and getting headhunted. Um, and that one was in a recruitment management position and the other was from a business development standpoint. Um, and it was successful, you know, I did some great work, some of my best work I'd say, in securing clients for those businesses. And these are clients that are multinational international oil and gas businesses with huge profits at corporate level to gain agreements to. And I did well, I did really well, enjoyed it. We enjoyed the lifestyle, probably a little bit different from a recruitment standpoint in the US to how we're built in the UK, I think.

I was going to ask that, Paul. What was the biggest difference recruiting in the US compared to the UK? What were some of the biggest differences you noticed?

Well, I suppose at that level of client and professionals, um, everything was done by function in terms of there might have been a conference going on. Um, you almost were massaging people's egos, um, by taking them for lunch. Um, everybody seems to have a 2-hour lunch in, in Houston, um, which, you know, is, is fantastic. Um, So there was that element, but I'm not speaking generally for all Americans here, but I think we probably built a little bit differently, or I'm built a little bit differently to how their process was. So I had to understand that in terms of sometimes it was a little bit too aggressive from a sales standpoint. And I don't mean aggressive as in screaming and shouting, I mean persistent, um, knowing my market, understanding the companies that I needed to approach and the people within them companies to approach. Um, so it certainly honed my skills, and I ended up securing a number of clients in Denver, um, which was a hotspot for a lot of shale work in the US. And that obviously got me recognized by other companies, um, and colleagues that I'd met. Um, so I was offered the opportunity to move to Malaysia, um, in an operations-based role. So after long discussion, kind of felt right— Middle East, Africa, done the US, been successful there— kind of go and get some more experience hone my skills more operationally in Malaysia. So we took the plunge and did that.

It's really interesting, Paul. I'm surprised you said aggressive, actually. I don't take you as an aggressive person, but I can understand what you're saying. So from the feedback of perhaps being too aggressive, what did you have to adjust in order to form better relationships with clients and get them on board? What did you actually adjust?

Do you remember?

Yeah. I think it was getting used to that cultural shift in terms of, you know, when you're built as a recruiter that can make, you know, 50 to 100 calls a day from a sales perspective. Sales wasn't done potentially like that. It was, like I say, it was lunch meetings, targeting specific individuals, understanding the dynamic of their supply chain, um, taking those people out for lunch, going to different functions, going to events such as, you know, rugby events that might have been on in the US or American football-based events and really getting to know somebody. So it was a kind of a longer process and I had to adapt to that and understand that quickly to be able to secure those clients. Because a lot of the time they don't want the aggressive persistence.

So the sales process is longer that you found in America, Paul. You have to get to know them, you have to schmooze them, you kind of have to take them out and lunch them, so to speak. Is that one of the biggest differences?

Yeah, I think for the most part, but I think it also depended on— I think that was relative to the size of client as well. Yeah, so, um, you know, some of the businesses that I'd worked for had existing agreements with major oil and gas and energy companies, um, so there was a process from a recruitment management of people working those jobs, but I was always built as a sales professional, um, which has changed massively over, over my, I suppose, my, my tenure within recruitment, um. But I think, so, yeah, there's an adaptation from me that was needed. That didn't mean to say that I stopped selling, but I was a lot more targeted with who I actually approached, which helped me evolve as a professional to what I do now, I think.

What was one of the biggest lessons you learned during your time in Texas regarding your recruitment process? Paul, was there one thing that you honed in during your time there? Was one thing you were like, shit, that's really good, I'm gonna keep that?

Yeah, I think it's based on that relationship element, that it's not, you're never going to get fully immersed with a client from a sales perspective if you're just making calls and you're not visible to them. I think that's something of paramount importance because I think I see and get a lot of feedback about other recruiters, some good, some bad, and I think they're sat behind a phone. You don't build relationships in life with anybody, you know, you don't get married off a couple of phone calls, do you? So, you know, you've got to You've got to understand people's dynamics, you've got to understand their drivers, you've got to understand what motivates them, you've got to understand those agreements, you've got to understand what you can do differently to that. There's a different variable with every company, every person, but the first and foremost thing for me is to build a relationship and see whether there's a potential active collaboration and partnership, because I think once you've got that, and you deliver on it ultimately, then you've got to drive forward. That's what I learned. That's— the US helped me a lot with that, I'd say.

It's very interesting. Not surprisingly, some of the best results we've had and some of the biggest clients our clients have managed to attract is through long-term pipeline building activities like content. And that's, you know, the big push I think that me and Sam are trying to help recruiters. And, you know, you've already, I think you've already mastered this over your years working in the US, Paul, but there's still a lot of recruiters that are kind of doubling down on that, you know, transactional, fast-paced, which is, I still think valuable, you know, it's still really valuable that you keep things ticking, but I think it's so important to have long-term pipeline building activities. You know, like schmoozing people, like content, like going to events, like stuff that is more based on relationship and giving value. And it's just really interesting that you've kind of naturally formed that through your time in the US. I think that's really valuable.

Yeah, and I think some of the things that, you know, we've been speaking about, um, is it's like having 7 pillars, isn't it? And whereas I think recruitment used to be built to get on the phone, you know, the old school way, get on the phone and make things happen type thing, Now there's multiple channels to that for attraction, for methodology, for brand, for all them elements. And I think you've got to take a piece of each of them to try and be successful now because it is a highly competitive market. And then, but then there's the insurance once you've got to that point and you recognize what those challenges are is ultimately that delivery aspect and saying what that you're going to do, what you're going to do, you know, because I think a lot of people will say a lot of things, but they don't necessarily deliver on it. It's really important to me.

Really interesting. And we know from just working with you, Paul, how meticulous you are with your delivery and how successful your fill rate is. Can you tell us a little bit more about that in terms of how you manage to get such a meticulous process and how your success rate is so high in terms of your fill rate?

Yeah, it's, uh, it's really an interesting question, um, and something that I've adopted probably in the past 4 years, that I took the view, um, that the core always remains the same, um, no matter whether it's a candidate or a client. Ben, um, the process needs to be the same because you need to treat all people equally. It's not just about the client, um, and you representing that client, as much as that's the big part of it and important. It's also about being honorable, saying what you're going to do to that candidate that you represented, and treat them as you would want to be treated. And I suppose that comes from my background of being a candidate and being approached by businesses and seeing the good from the bad. Um, I decided probably about 3 or 4 years ago that irrespective of whether it was a contingent search, retained, executive search, that I was going to formulate the same approach and that that was going to be meticulous, that was going to be honorable to the candidate and to the client, to always give feedback. But I've set something up which I think we've discussed as well, called a tripod methodology. I'm not going to go into massive detail, but I think that that is, um, CVs can say one thing, but they don't give a true representation to a person. To a candidate. Um, I want to understand the dynamic, the drivers, and I want to go into real detail with the candidate and look at their behaviors towards the culture of the client, the culture of the business that they're potentially putting in for. I always ask for a piece of material against the job description from the candidate because that shows me the drivers for them. That shows they're interested in the role, that shows they're engaged with me. And also, I don't profess to be a professional in their world. You know, two project services professionals would have a far better conversation between themselves than I would separately, because that's not my skill set. Whilst I understand it, um, my job is to unearth drivers, tell the client about specific things, understand the dynamic. So it's got to be comprehensive. So even if it's a contingent search, what I found is, I suppose a lot— and I know this, but I don't want to speak ill of any other recruiter— but they'll send messages out on LinkedIn to candidates and say you know, oh, we've got a job, understand, want to understand, you know, could you send me your CV type scenario, and hope you're well. That's the same messages, and they've not necessarily got a job, um, to put it through, and then they're farming it out to 15 different businesses. And that's not my approach. Um, I generally, you know, I get the corporate element of, of the transaction that's needed to be with a bigger business um, from a recruiting standpoint. But I find that that hit rate gets better the more detail you go into with both client and candidate. That's my, that's my mantra. That's what I stick to. It's a robust methodology. And when you've got a fill rate of 95%, so give you an example, um, I've got a couple of clients One of that I got a 96% fill rate with, um, and that was 5 roles filled. The 4% odd is that somebody left after the— because they weren't, they weren't a match, which is detriment to me, but you know, I'm human. Um, and then I've got another client that has released probably 14 roles, and I've filled 12 of them, and 2 were internal candidates that had applied for the other 2 roles. So, and I'm not just keen on placing, I'm keen on retention. You know, that's why I go to that detail, Ben, of really ensuring and being personable with that person, because I want that repeat business off the candidates when they come into a hiring position as well. So I hope that answers what you were—

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, definitely, Paul.

I was going to say, Paul, you said that you give the candidate, you get material from the candidate that they're supposed to fill out something. Can you give us just a bit more detail of, you know, the questions you're asking them? Because I'm guessing that piece of material is one of the key aspects that drives the Tripod process and allows you to match it to the company. What are you asking the candidate? What do they need to fill out, if you're okay to share that?

Yeah, so I will always share a job description. Doesn't necessarily have to be full client details, albeit I trust in my process that I will release client details because I've got to be comfortable with the client that I'm entrenched with them and they trust me. So candidates don't go and contact— if they did contact themselves, then my agreements is watertight anyway. Um, so I would share that information and then I would have two follow-up calls with them. Um, in some cases it's just two calls, an introductory call for about half an hour, and then I would get on a Teams call after I've shared— excuse me, guys— um, after I've shared the job description and they've then sent me their CV. After I've done the initial consultation. So we can discuss that, um, we can discuss their CV against the role, we can discuss their drivers of where they are now, and get to the point of them saying, okay, what are you looking for in terms of salary expectation and the nice stuff? So when I ask them, as part of that process, after that point, I would ask them to put a short covering letter together to show all them things I just mentioned to Ben, their commitment, that they understand the role, they understand the brief, they understand what they're applying for, where they can add value to that role and how their skill set matches the job description. Then talk about their, maybe their drivers, what their experience works in tandem with that job description and how how they lead a team of people, potentially, what they've been involved with from a hiring perspective. So, you know, not War and Peace, guys, but a short covering letter to say, I'm interested in this role because this is where my skill set dictates that I'd be right to apply for this position. And then I would write a piece on their behaviours, how they conduct themselves, what their drivers are, ensuring that it's compatibility from a fiscal perspective. So the commercials in terms of what they're looking for, notice periods, what their current packages are, why are the drivers they want to join it. So it's quite comprehensive, but it gets a better result in my opinion.

Really interesting. It's almost like a qualification process as well because I'm guessing the people that are really serious would absolutely do that, but then there might be some candidates that just kind of the ones that are wasting your time, they'll probably just run a mile from doing the extra work. Am I right in saying that, Paul?

No, no, absolutely. I'm not here to waste time. I'm here to deliver a fantastic service for the clients and keep that hit rate, shall we say, at the level that I expect of me and my business.

One thing that's been a theme with you, Paul, that I've noticed is that You went from oil and gas, but you learn a lot about the industry and you niche down. You're now in offshore wind. Again, you've stuck with a niche and become an expert on one thing. How much has kind of niching down in the recruitment sector played a part in your billing numbers? Has it been a big part? And why did you choose to do that?

Well, I think that being involved in offshore engineering is passionate to me. So renewables is a wide space, you know, you've got hydrogen, you've got solar, you've got circular economy, you've got energy storage, you've got hydropower, you've got, you know, the list is clean technology. I don't believe by my previous experience that you're going to be a master at all those things because there's not enough time in the day So focus on your passion and really learn about that industry to look at it from a scalability perspective. Because look, it's not new as in new, you know, it's not brand new offshore wind or onshore wind, for example, but it is new and evolving every day with different technologies. So there's interests involved in it, and we've got to get to net zero, and it's one main contributor to it, which I'm passionate about as well for the future. So, but I think I alluded to it there, there's only enough time in the day. You've got to immerse yourself in one market and understand the players, understand the candidates, you know, building workflows through those different candidates within it. There's challenges obviously with inter-country definitions, different, you know, players within it. Some are a bit more pioneering and have been involved in it before, some are relatively new to it but learning and evolving. So I think I'm just passionate about it. I'm passionate about what we can achieve from it, and I can't— I don't want to spread myself too thin as a bit from a business perspective. So yeah, that, that, that's it really.

So yeah, it's really interesting, Paul, just because one of the things I see a lot of recruiters do, especially early stages, they try and dip in quite a few different markets, like 3 or 4. So they're not really— they don't really understand any market very well. They kind of understand it in bits, if that makes sense. And I'm just, from what I've seen, especially as you're starting off, or not starting off, as you're a smaller company, when you specialize in one niche, the success rate is much higher. So it's just interesting that that is the road that you've taken and it reflects in your numbers as well.

Of course. And I think as a small business owner, when there's multiple different areas that you've got to cover, not just recruitment, from a marketing perspective, from a brand awareness side of things, it's not possible, Sam, to look at electric vehicles one minute and share something on this, this, you know, immerse yourself in one thing and involve yourself thoroughly in it to get to the place where you need to be, and then maybe from a scalability perspective, start looking at them other areas. And then identify them processes that have worked and move them into that.

That's pretty fascinating.

Yeah.

So next thing I'd like to speak about, Paul, is your fees. Now, we've spoken about this behind the scenes. I think out of every recruiter me and Ben have worked with, you're probably— well, not probably, actually definitely— in the highest fees that we've ever seen. How much has your niche contributed to that? What would you— what advice would you give to other recruiters who want to charge higher fees? Is it about changing niche? Is it about confidence? Like, how did you get to the position where you are now where you can charge such high fees?

Yeah, um, I think it depends on the company, Sam. It depends on the level. It depends on the geographics of that company. There's multiple things towards that. Um, that, that was— that would say to start with. But my fees are my fees because of my skill set, for one, um, because of my hit rate based on the job that I do, the success that I deliver, and with the insurance obviously from a retention rate, which is very important in a small talent pool. Um, because as I said, that, that evolution with it— so, so you're right, that, that niche of being able to be in that niche and not focus on all those other things and having that background contributes to my skill set to say, well, hang on a minute, I'm not, with all due respect, some two-bit recruiter that just fires CVs out every day. This is what I do. This is the in-depthness that I actually go to. I will encompass behavioral assessments into dependent on level, um, to ensure compatibility because of potential long rebate periods. So my fee structure works on package, um, as a— so that is different instances, but base salary, bonus, car allowance, etc., but depends on, on that allowance, um I would never drop below 20%, let's just say that. Um, and then I'd find it difficult when I've got clients that are all on 25 or 30%. Where does my time go? And that's an educational piece for the client. If I'm speaking to a new client and I'm saying Well, this is my hit rate, this is my skill set, this is what I've delivered, but I'm dealing with these clients who are a competitor of yours and they're paying me 25%. Why would I sign with you at 20%? Because you're not going to get the same level of service off me that I would from a client that I've got a strong relationship with and are paying me well and worthy for what I actually do and deliver. Again, I'm not saying that I would never do that by any stretch, but not in a new relationship. Not in a, you know, uh, I would look at evolution of fees based on volume of positions that that company has. Um, but look, you know, they charge big bucks for their services. As well. And I'm a professional guy, so kind of don't take the piss out of me. Sorry, that was Bob's word. It's all good, Paul.

What I've noticed, you're really, uh— sorry, Ben, were you gonna say something?

No, I was on mute. Don't worry.

Sorry. Okay, cool. Um, what I was gonna— what I noticed, Paul, is you're very good at going into— because you went into the oil and gas in America, and essentially you had to start from scratch there, didn't you? In, in terms of— am I right in saying that you didn't have any contact contacts there, or very few, and you kind of had to start?

Um, I, I did— I, I didn't. Um, the companies that I worked for at the time were pretty sizable businesses, so had relationships. But what I did effectively was brought additional relationships to them, um, through all the things that we've mentioned. Um, getting in front of people, understanding dynamics of of those businesses, etc., which is probably what my best skill set is, building relationships with people.

So, yeah, sorry, Paul, I was going to ask, for a recruiter who's looking to maybe go abroad to places like America or, you know, different parts of Europe, going into a new niche, how would, how do you go about kind of market mapping that niche and getting into a new niche? What kind of key things would you advise them to start doing in order to do that if they had no idea where to start?

Are you talking about a business that's not got any activity in those locations but is looking to immerse themselves in that location? Okay, yeah. So I think it boils back to a lot of things that I'd said, Sam, in terms of if you know your market, You know your products, you know the level that you want to work at. Don't go outside of that, you know, work, work within it. And it doesn't matter whether you're here to do it or— so, so if you, if you take the UK and the US, for example, the US is a massive place, you know, it's like the size of Europe. Um, so find the hub for that location. You know, so I think from a US perspective, like automotive, if you're in automotive, for example, it used to be Detroit which was the, the main place. So, and then looking at, I suppose there's different levels. You've got an OEM, for example, so original equipment manufacturer, then you've got tier 1, tier 2. So that's the seating that goes into the automotive, and then tier 2 would be the nuts and bolts that makes the seat that goes into the What's it? So I'm just talking about a different industry, but I'd find that hub where it's most present and then look at what your skill set is. And then it— I'd personally, I'd immerse yourself in that market from here, making relevant contacts, building a pipeline of clients that you would like to attack, and having a goal based on what you want to achieve before you take the plunge, because I think America can swallow you up quite quickly. When you've not already got some presence there.

Really interesting. I do think there's a mindset shift for a lot of recruiters in the UK. They think that, and I'm sure in some respects, as we discussed in this podcast, the US mentality, it might be a little bit different. But when it comes to a message, if you understand a sector really, really well, there's a lot of, there's a lot of What's the word I'm trying to think? There's a lot of commonality between the message that you can use to penetrate into new markets. For instance, me and Sam, you know, we'd initially only dealt with UK recruiters and then we made a big push to the US and actually the message was very, very similar. And what we'd learned from UK recruiters, there was a lot of applicable messages that would resonate in the US and the same with UK recruiters that we've helped to penetrate into the US. you know, the message that they use in the UK. There's, there's some variables, but actually there's a surface level kind of commonality between how we communicate with them. And it's actually, from what I've experienced, just taking the plunge to actually test it and go for it, if that makes sense.

I'm sure there's more to it for other people, but no, look, I, I understand that, and, and I think that that would work for, for some businesses. I, I've worked with some really successful people, um, that are on the ground, but those really successful people I've been through an evolution from— so I think what I'm kind of alluding to would be, you know, if you just all of a sudden you've done 2 years as a recruiter in the UK, then you've set up a business and go, okay, let's open an office in Texas.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand.

Do some reconnaissance first because every state has different legislation, different laws, different taxes. Different dynamic of people, unions, all sorts of different things to consider. And if you are a well-established business with relatively deep pockets, it's not hard to open an office and put a recruiter in an office in the US, but just do a little bit of due diligence first. That's what I'd say.

Yeah, really. What was your—

sorry, Ben, go ahead.

No, you go ahead, man.

No, I was going to say, what was your number one method, or what is your number one method actually, Paul, for BD at the moment? What's your most effective tool that you use, whether that be the phone, an in-mail, a LinkedIn message, email?

What's your—

what has been your most effective method to BD to this date, do you think?

I think it's always been a concise message addressing the person that it is and having some relative experience to relate to and actually looking at that person before I just send a random automated email, which is not really my gig, or to potentially, you know, in some cases approach people from a candidate perspective when there's a relative role that they might be a fit for, gain that element of trust and understanding, you know, share that knowledge with them. And then in turn they become a client. So I'd say probably those two areas from a message, but I think that the world has changed from that cold calling aspect a little bit. I'm not saying that it doesn't work because I'm built as somebody who will pick up the phone and speak to anybody and advise them, and I probably wouldn't get anything out of that first call, maybe sometimes, But after the fourth call of me being a WASP and drilling it into them that I am who I say I am and I'll do what I say I'm gonna do, then it works as well. So in terms of my— the, the best is I build relationships with candidates the same way I build with clients, Sam, and then candidates become clients. Automatically because they get to know me, you know, be part of the fabric of what I want to do to a certain extent. So yeah, interesting.

And you've been— no, it does, Paul. Thank you, mate. Um, you, you've, you've been in recruitment for a while. You're obviously very good at what you do, Paul. What are some of the— when you've observed other people who are billing high numbers What are some of the key traits, characteristics, things they're doing on a daily basis that you spotted? You're like, yeah, that's, that's probably why they're billing so much, or I can account that that's, that's probably why they're so successful. What, what trends have you spotted?

Again, I'm probably covering old ground here, but definitely persistence. Um, you know, I've met all sorts of recruiters and recruiters that are friends now, and Some are larger than life and some are very unassuming and under the radar. A guy that I've worked with in the past, he's very unassuming, under the radar. He's just like a clockwork mouse, you know, just wind him up and he'll go until he hits the wall. Just consistently on it, on it, on it, you know, all the time. But he's also very vertically driven within a specific market space. So he knows that market.

Very well.

And I'm talking £500,000 to £700,000 a year billing, you know, sometimes more. So that would be a key takeaway for me, that you don't have to be larger than life or unassuming. You can do it as long as your persistence is key and you entrench yourself within that market. That's a key takeaway for me.

It's a great answer, Paul. I, I can't go away from this podcast without speaking about day plans. One thing I've realized about recruiters is they love a good day plan. Uh, can you give us a quick rundown of what your— what a typical day in the life of Paul looks like when you're trying to, um, penetrate new, uh, new markets, when you're trying to get hold of new clients, candidates? Give us an insight if that's okay, Paul.

Yeah, I mean, it No day's the same, Sam. Um, it's— I like to try to stick to a structure within, you know, I get up in the morning, make sure my son's sorted for school, um, go for a walk, kind of clear my head a little bit, um, do admin tasks that I need to from kind of, I don't know, half 7, 8 o'clock until 9 o'clock. Then 9:00 it will be sales or potential meetings involved. So core hours, I suppose, from 9:00 till 12:00 and then 1:00 until 4:00, and then it's the peripheral stuff outside of that. This year's been particularly busy and not gone to consistent plan with that, as we've already discussed. But that's because I'm doing a diploma a Level 7 diploma with the Chartered Management Institute for coaching and development. I'm learning German on a weekly basis. I'm managing a household whilst my wife is at work in some cases as well. I've got 3 clients that demand quite a lot of attention within that, so, um, it's hard to keep that balance, Sam. I suppose from a family perspective, encompassed with how intense recruitment is, as well as that additional learning, um, that I'm undertaking. So, um, but a typical day plan would be that, um, kind of clear my— clear the decks in the morning from anything that's happened previously. 9 till 12 would be sales with candidates or meetings with clients, meetings with, with candidates. I don't get enough time for lunch, I'll be honest with you, probably about 10 minutes. I'm a bit of a workhorse, um, and then I'm straight back on it speaking to people from that till 4, working around the family, probably get out of the office at 7 o'clock but still taking calls up to 9 o'clock, um, in the evening, and then working weekends as well.

Wow, so pretty intense work. Work schedule, Paul.

Yeah, but it's not through my own doing. It's through my own desire. I like work and I like recruitment and I like delivering on what I say I'm going to do.

Sounds very similar to my schedule, actually, Paul. And it's interesting when you enjoy work, it doesn't feel like— because people have this connotation with work that it's a thing that you have to do to survive. But actually, if you do find something you love, it's enjoyable. Of course, not everything's enjoyable, but, you know, you're actually enjoying a lot of what you do. And yeah, so I'm— I definitely resonate with that. And I also like to be stimulated. I get bored so quickly. Like, yeah, you know, if I'm not doing work, what I'm doing outside of work has to be really entertaining or really relaxing or something that's really gonna focus my mind. Otherwise, it's just really difficult to stay stimulated.

I'd agree. I'd say, well, my wife says that I've got undiagnosed ADHD because I can't sit still for more than 10 minutes, which I see as a positive. You know, I pace when I'm on the phone. You know, I work hard because I'm passionate about it. What the biggest passion is, is learning about new people. That's what motivates me. Recruitment almost doesn't seem like a job. You know, there's a transaction at the end of it. But it's about learning about people and making relationships and helping people in that element. So I'm not a soft touch by any stretch of the imagination, but I want to learn about people. I want to build reciprocal relationships with people, both clients and with candidates for the future. So it's not really like a job, is it? You're just having a chat with somebody about things. But then there's obviously the detail within that where you get into more in-depth conversation about those skills because of my knowledge. So nice. It's great. I like it. I'd work all the time if my wife liked it.

Same with us, Paul. I think our better halves have something to say about it.

But if I didn't have to eat and sleep, I probably would continue working. I hate how much sleep I need. 8 hours, otherwise I'm a grumpy git. It's so annoying.

Yeah, I, I'm not as bad as that, to be fair. Um, but if the wife was on this, this, uh, podcast, then she'd be saying that I'm a lazy sod and I can't get up every day, you know. Um, but that's, that's not true. It's just that I think she, uh, she doesn't like the fact that she automatically wakes up at half 5 every day and I don't. Wow.

That's insane. What's the biggest— what's one of the biggest lessons you've learned while running and setting up your company, Paul? Is there one? Is there a couple things that come to mind of big lessons that you've learned?

Um, find your passion within recruitment. Find what motivates you and what you're interested in from that sector. Um, don't deviate from that because you'll— and have a, have a goal for where you want to get to. You know, it's great putting a 5-year business plan together, but then it deviates and you come away from it and nope, don't be consistent with it. You're never going to achieve anything. That's my honest opinion. Um, I think It took me a while to learn that, you know, because you automatically think when you've been involved in so many different sectors, you know, manufacturing, oil and gas, automotive, offshore wind, solar, construction, it's easy to deviate based on what market conditions are dictating. So if construction's hot topic at the minute, oh, let's go and do a bit. No, no. I'm going to stay with what I know, you know, that's what I'd say. I'm going to stay with what I know, what I'm passionate about, and how I can help evolve that because I think that brings business scalability for me to grow my business successfully into those other areas within the renewable value chain.

Great advice, Paul. And we are close to coming to the end and we always end the podcast with this question, and it's a controversial one, Paul. So we, uh, we always get, um, there's always someone fighting the corner of, of either side. Uh, you'll probably have a different opinion on this though, Paul. Uh, cold calling, yes or no? Is it still relevant today? Should the modern recruiter be cold calling? If so, when, when should they use it?

Yes. Um, consistently, um, as part of a wider plan. That's my honest opinion. Um, I think I said before that the world has evolved and marketing has evolved, specific platforms have evolved, so it's crucial that you utilize those tools that are available but don't stop the core to meeting people, discussing dynamic, overcoming objections, being a pest. Um, you know, seriously, it's, it's got to be— it's not one size fits all, in my opinion. Needs to be bite-sized of everything. To truly make it happen.

Interesting. And I, yeah, so it's like, it still works and it's part of an overall strategy. And I agree with this, using different channels, I think is the most important thing.

Yeah.

Leveraging LinkedIn content, email, calls if you need to, you know, it's, I totally agree with that.

And that's, I think that's what brought me to you guys, you know, I'm not an expert marketer. But it was a— if I do a skills gap analysis on myself, I'm a cold caller, that's how I'm built from, or a warm caller with somebody that I've been introduced to or a candidate. But you've got to look at those gaps within your skill set and how you need to enhance them. And that's ultimately what, you know, it's educational, isn't it? Consistently, um, there's something new, you know, Um, so yeah, that, that's what I'd say. But I'm not saying use 80% or 20%, but just find the balance within it of what you need to do and utilize all those elements within it.

I haven't actually asked you this, Paul. Are you still a kind of traditional cold caller in the sense that completely cold and get them on the phone, or do you message first and then call them? What's your What's your kind of balance between that?

That's a good question, that, Sam. I wouldn't care about picking up the phone and speaking to anybody, but I'll certainly do my research on that. So I'll have a plan. So there might be, I don't know, 12 businesses within offshore wind. 6 of them might be at early stages development, looking for investment, looking for people. 6 of them might be giant clients where I need to speak to procurement, where I need to speak to HR, where I need to speak to C-suite level. Um, I've got the skill set to be able to do that. I'm comfortable. I, I didn't mean to sound arrogant in that way. I meant that I've got the skill set to carry that conversation and discuss with all levels because of my background. I didn't have when I'd been 2, 3 years into recruitment. It's been honed over a series of living in different places, undertaking different processes, understanding dynamics of businesses. So if I look at an offshore wind business, I'll know who I need to speak to pretty quickly. After probably a couple of calls. So once I've introduced myself or I'm connected to somebody that's within that business, they'll tell me who that is and I'm straight on the phone.

That's really interesting, Paul. So what I got from that is you still cold call, you could still pick up and speak to anyone, but when you do cold calling, you're bringing up a list, you're doing your research, and it's very targeted cold calls with people that I say cold calls, this still is cold, but you're doing extensive research before you're calling them.

It goes back to the Gordon Ramsay story, doesn't it? I'm not a chef. I've got no commonality with him and a worldwide media star as he is now. But what's the problem? Hi, my name is Paul Evans and I'm calling from Ecogen Partners. Oh, hi. Get into a conversation. What's scary about that? You know, speak to people. Once they understand— but again, you know, it is different if you've not got a skill set or a background within something. And I've not got a long background in offshore wind, but I understand offshore wind projects. I understand the dynamics of the clients. I understand because I do a lot of research and I speak to a lot of people. I'd know who I'd need to speak to from a supply chain perspective to become an approved supplier, or if they were looking for somebody at a specific level, at C-suite level, for example, I'd know who to speak to. So I think that comes with time, personally. But I'd still ring anybody, doesn't matter.

I love that about you, Paul. You make it sound so So easy for all the other recruiters that are bricking themselves with cold call, you just will jump straight on. I love that about you, mate.

Listen, we're all human, we're all gonna die, so you know, just speak to people.

Yeah, love it. What a perfect way to end the podcast. Paul, thank you so much for coming on, mate. Absolute pleasure to have you on, and lots of little golden nuggets in there.

Um, cool, great to be here, guys. Thanks very much for, uh, for the invite, and I hope it's given some nuggets, as you say.

Absolutely, mate.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.